<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2700</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, June 30 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2700<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2698<BR>
RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2699<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: Antimatter<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
TCS tournaments (was: HG Squadron)<BR>
Backgrounds<BR>
New York, New York - A Hell of a Town (was Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
Re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Ships Pets (was:rats)<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:59:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> movie, and for die hard fans like myself, who time the amount of time that<BR>
> it takes from the point where bishop announces the eta of the dropship to<BR>
> the time where it actually arrives (yes they do spend around 16 minutes<BR>
> getting to him)... <BR>
<BR>
If you want some fun, time the Death Star sequence in Star Wars IV. And<BR>
compare the results with the countdown in the film. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:07:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it allowable to<BR>
>>*sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a contract? How about one that<BR>
>>places limits on what you can or can't be made to do? Would that be<BR>
>>illegal? <BR>
><BR>
> Not in Imperial law.  It's not chattel slavery.  It's an<BR>
> indenture, and _that_ may be illegal elsewhere, and as a result,<BR>
> the holder of an indenture may not be able to take his indentured<BR>
> amanuensis to certain worlds (consider some of the slave cases<BR>
> that led up to the U.S. War of Secession), but it's not the<BR>
> prohibited chattel slavery.<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. It looks like "Nova Roma" just might be doable...<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the ability to sell yourself into slavery seems to have functioned<BR>
as a sort of "safety net". If things got *too* bad, sell yourself with<BR>
a not *too* restrictive "contract" and you had a guarantee of no worse<BR>
than moderately bad treatment, with guaranteed food and shelter.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:49:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I wouldn't advise that. You see, part of the voir dire process these<BR>
>> days usually involves asking you (under oath) if you intend to rule<BR>
>> according to the law or not. There's been at least one case of a juror<BR>
>> doing *exactly* what you propose to do and then being prosecuted for<BR>
>> *perjury*.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the drug<BR>
>> laws. Which could get you into the same bind.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Personally, I think those questions shouldn't be allowed.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course they should.  I don't want to be involved in any case, on either<BR>
> side, where I don't even know what the applicable laws are, because the<BR>
> jurors decided to throw them out and rule on their own feelings.<BR>
> Juries are part of the judicial branch.  They follow the law.  Legislators<BR>
> make law.  Anyone who has a problem with the law should bring it to the<BR>
> attention of a legislator.  I hope the author of the post you were<BR>
> replying to has already done that.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but you are quite wrong. Juries have the right to ignore what<BR>
they feel to bee an unjust law. This has been established at the<BR>
highest level (Supreme Court decisions). <BR>
<BR>
This right exists for the specific purpose of dealing with cases where<BR>
the legislators have passed an unjust law, one that people feel is not<BR>
proper use of the legislative authority. Or even one that they feel is<BR>
just, but where *applying* it to the situation in question is unjust.<BR>
<BR>
The judges and prosecutors are trying to prevent the excercise of this<BR>
right. That is *not* right. It goes against one of the reasons "trial<BR>
by a jury of your peers" *exists*.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, legislators make laws. That doesn't make those laws just, and as<BR>
far too many cases in recent years have shown, it doesn't make the<BR>
constitutional either.<BR>
<BR>
Consider laws like the "civil assett forfeiture" laws. These are being<BR>
struck down just about every time they reach the Supreme Court. But in<BR>
the meantime, lots of people are being hurt by them who can't *afford*<BR>
to fight the forfeiture (matter of fact, that was the *intent* behind<BR>
those laws). <BR>
<BR>
So should a jury rule against them just because the *obviously*<BR>
unconstitutional law hasn't been struck down yet?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:27:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2698<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:14:46 -0700, Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So do I.  We have more than enough earth-mommas and hippie throwbacks  (male<BR>
>and female) for the whole country.  Apparently western Oregon must be some<BR>
>sort of national preserve.  When has communes from the 60s that are still<BR>
>going, and tie-die has never gone out of fashion .<BR>
<BR>
All true.  I'm a "moderate" out here, and would probably be considered a <BR>
flaming liberal in most parts of the country.  (The exceptions being <BR>
Massachussets and parts of California.)  However, it should be noted that <BR>
most of the liberalism is in the Willamette Valley corridor and surrounding <BR>
hills.  The rest of the state is ranchers and loggers, proud rednecks every <BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
>As far as anarchists, we have the real thing.  Not trendy neo-liberal types.<BR>
>These ones would be throwing bombs if they had them.  Remember the WTO<BR>
>protest in Seattle.  Most of those nut-bars were from Eugene, a town an hour<BR>
>south of Portland.<BR>
<BR>
More like two hours, unless you drive REALLY fast. :)<BR>
<BR>
Even the liberals around here disavow the anarchists, who seem to behave <BR>
more like a new gang (complete with uniform and "colors") looking to vent <BR>
adolescent anger and break things than a force for real <BR>
change.  Unfortunately, since they make such a convenient stereotype and/or <BR>
bogeyman, they're what the media tends to focus on.<BR>
<BR>
>   These people have their semi-monthly riot,<BR>
<BR>
Not true!  Annual, at least.  Maybe seasonal, if you must.<BR>
<BR>
>  and I expect<BR>
>that the Eugene police dept is as experienced in riot control as any major<BR>
>metropolis like New York, LA, etc.<BR>
<BR>
And many Eugenians have the same opinion of the Mayor (Jim Torrey) and the <BR>
cops as New Yorkers seem to.  Except that Hizzoner is not (so far as I <BR>
know, over on the Left Coast) regularly labeled the tool of developers and <BR>
other corporate interests; and here, the police just pepper-spray people <BR>
multiple times rather than shooting them likewise.<BR>
<BR>
This has been the local perspective.  Signing off.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:36:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Glenn, It sounds like you have been up this way before.  <BR>
<BR>
I have been all over Oregon and been many times to some<BR>
places, but have never actually come up for the Traveller<BR>
shooting fest, although I would like to.  (Come to think of<BR>
it, my brother and I just drove through Malheur county from<BR>
Boise to San Francisco a few months ago.)  <BR>
<BR>
>Next time you make it up this way we should meet.  Perhaps<BR>
>arrange an  'educational' shoot with Mark, then game a<BR>
>little just to put all that experience to use.  In the<BR>
>late summer, Hermiston watermelons get down to under $.08<BR>
>a lb and this make for a nice end to a day of shooting. <BR>
>Eat watermelon and/or shoot watermelon.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds good; I'll let you know if I'm coming north.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:39:31 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>  > Not millennia.  Bacteria evolve very<BR>
>  > fast.  They have already rendered antibiotics that were major<BR>
>  > problems for them useless (in decades).  I would centuries at<BR>
>  > most...<BR>
><BR>
>Yes ; with generation times measured in hours, bacteria can evolve very<BR>
>quickly, if conditions are suitable.<BR>
><BR>
>In the absence of harder data, incorporating factors such as, for<BR>
>example :-<BR>
>* niche competition ;<BR>
>    - the lack of animal, plant and environmental reservoirs in the Vland<BR>
>biosphere for Terran-derived microbes ;<BR>
<BR>
I'm not so sure about this one.  If E Coli can live in sewage, they<BR>
should be able to live on Vland.....<BR>
<BR>
>    - 'No rooms in the inn' for Vland microbes attempting the jump to man<BR>
<BR>
Aside frome the issue about whether Vilani microbes are really<BR>
going to be that poor, if the humans come with terrestrial<BR>
microbes, they are going to undergo evolution and some of them<BR>
will become a problem.<BR>
<BR>
>;<BR>
>* mutation rates (e.g. developing appropriate adhesins, or molecular<BR>
>machinery to deal with alternate cofactors/amino acids) ;<BR>
>    - the lack of bacteriophage viruses in the environment to accelerate<BR>
>mutation rates (for Terran natives) ;<BR>
>    - failed experiments in the development of transposons ;<BR>
>    - the probability of Vland-native microbes making the adaptations<BR>
>necessary to colonise the Vilani ; and<BR>
>    - the probability that colonising strains (from either biochemical<BR>
>tradition) develop the necessary virulence factors,<BR>
><BR>
>why don't we change 'millennia' to 'years', to suggest span of time<BR>
>without excessive precision?<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't hazard a guess as to how long it would take below<BR>
the century level....<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I'd note, however :-<BR>
>* The moulds and bacteria that make antibiotics have been making the<BR>
>same, or very similar, compounds for much longer than centuries (the<BR>
>genes coding for the synthetic machinery appear to be relatively stable)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
But that is what bacteria do.  Most bacteria actually have the<BR>
machinery to make and use an array of compounds and they adapt<BR>
that to a new situation.<BR>
<BR>
>;<BR>
>* The development of antibiotic resistance is secondary to a<BR>
>(hitherto unseen in nature, barring mass extinctions) enormous selective<BR>
>pressure due to relatively indiscriminate use of these compounds ; and<BR>
<BR>
Well, if microbes from Vland get in a human and enounter the same<BR>
mortality rate, they are seeing the same level of selective pressure.<BR>
If they see a smaller one, it is because they are already partially<BR>
or mostly adapted to the situation.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
I had written:<BR>
>> In the United States, the judge can't change a verdict<BR>
>>of acquittal.<BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
>Apparently he can in "civil" cases. I recall reading<BR>
>recently of a case where a jury rendered a "not guilty" <BR>
>verdict in a patent case, and the judge set aside their <BR>
>verdict.<BR>
<BR>
You're confusing civil and criminal cases.  Jury verdicts<BR>
of acquittal and conviction are only found in criminal<BR>
cases.  Civil jury verdicts may be, "defendant is not<BR>
liable" or "defendant is liable and damages are $___".  <BR>
<BR>
Judgment non obstante verdicto (judgment notwithstanding<BR>
the verdict, usually abbreviated JNOV) may be rendered by<BR>
the judge in a civil case regardless of the verdict.  JNOV<BR>
(which may go by another name in criminal court) may or may<BR>
not be available in a criminal case to reverse a<BR>
conviction; one would have to check the applicable criminal<BR>
procedure law.  JNOV to reverse an acquittal is<BR>
unconstitutional as a violation of due process.  Once the<BR>
jury acquits, the state can't appeal, can't move for a new<BR>
trial (maybe can move for a mistrial), and generally can't<BR>
proceed at all.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:53:23 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2699<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > >From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
> > ><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Cool. Have you tested it against the squadrons developed by<BR>
> > that guy whose name I can't remember who won all of the<BR>
> > early TCS tournaments?  (That's vague as can be; check the<BR>
> > JTAS site for further discussion.)<BR>
>  <BR>
> IIRC, one of the big winners of the PBM TCS games turned out to be a<BR>
> computer program.. Does anyone remember the details of this?.<BR>
<BR>
Yup. Not a PBM game, but a con tournament, two years running. Famous <BR>
AI researcher named Doug Lenat entered a fleet that was tuned by a <BR>
computer program. The program, EURISKO, was a general-purpose one (not a<BR>
TCS specialist), and it sounds like Doug and EURISKO sort of met halfway <BR>
on responsibility. :)<BR>
<BR>
One of Eurisko's winning fleets, at TL12:<BR>
   Four Garter class:<BR>
 TB-Garter  TB- K1567F3- B41106- 34009- 1  MCr 17,584.104<BR>
   Bearing                    C      1  EE    7    12,000 tons<BR>
   Batteries                  C      1  EE    7    crew=170<BR>
 Agility=4; Fuel=840; Cargo=4.3            low=170<BR>
   Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 6000 tons of fuel and mass,change the agility<BR>
 to 4, and cost MCr6.01.(TB-K1344F3) The ship is designed to manuever when<BR>
carrying up to 72,000 tons of drop tanks and one Wasp fighter.<BR>
  <BR>
   Four Cisor class:<BR>
 BD-Cisor      BD- K9525F3- E41100- 340C5- 0  MCr22,291.175<BR>
   Bearing                    1      11  1U    19,980 tons<BR>
   Batteries                  1      11  1U    crew= ?<BR>
 Agility=0; Fuel=999; Cargo=19.1            low=95<BR>
   Note: L-Hyd drop tanks add 9,990 tons of fuel and mass, and cost MCr10. (BD-<BR>
L9313F3) The ship is designed to manuever when carrying up to<BR>
 29,970 tons of drop tanks.<BR>
  <BR>
   Three Queller class:<BR>
 BH-Queller    BH- K1526F3- B41106- 34Q02- 1  MCr27,802.392<BR>
   Bearing                    Z      1  NN1  N      19,600 tons<BR>
   Batteries                  Z      1  NN1  N      crew=263<BR>
 Agility=0; Fuel=1,176; Cargo=10.72      low=232; marines=200   Note:<BR>
L-hyd drop tanks add 9,800 tons of fuel and mass, and cost<BR>
 MCr9.81. (BH-L1314F3) The ship is designed to manuever when carrying up to<BR>
29,400 tons of drop tanks and two fighters (one Wasp and one Bee).<BR>
  <BR>
   Seventy-five Eurisko class:<BR>
 BA-Eurisko    Ba- K952563- J41100- 34003- 0  MCr13,030.385<BR>
   Bearing                    1      11    V      11,100 tons<BR>
   Batteries              1      11    V      crew=131<BR>
 Agility=2; Fuel=555; Cargo=8            low=0; marines=35   Note:<BR>
L-hyd drop tanks add 5,550 tons of fuel and mass, change the agility to 1,<BR>
 and cost 5.56. (BA-K931363) The ship is designed to manuever when carrying up<BR>
to 16,650 tons of drop tanks.<BR>
  <BR>
   Seven Wasp class:<BR>
 IL-Wasp        Il- A90ZZF2- J00000- 00009- 0    MCr896.75<BR>
   Bearing                        1        1,000 tons<BR>
   Batteries                      1        Crew=19<BR>
 Agility=6; Fuel=60; Cargo=0                  low=0<BR>
  <BR>
   Three Bee class:<BR>
 FF-Bee        FF- 0906661- A30000- 00001- 0    MCr127.945<BR>
   Bearing                    1                  2    99 tons<BR>
   Batteries                  1                  2    crew=2<BR>
 Agility=0; Fuel=5.94; Cargo=0<BR>
<BR>
(forgive the formatting problems breaking the battery/bearing columns)<BR>
The main point of the fleet is tons of low-factor missile batteries on the <BR>
Eurisko destroyers, guaranteeing lots of erosion damage to the targets, <BR>
plus a handful of big ships to soak up fire. There's also some funny <BR>
business going on with planetoid hulls and drop tanks which is largely <BR>
exploiting the requirements of this particular tournament.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:57:34 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/30/00 3:32:22 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 Yep, despite what Judges tell you, that's very much a part of US <BR>
 law, and one I highly approve of. >><BR>
<BR>
The problem with Jury Nullification is that there are no jury instructions <BR>
about it, the defense lawyer can't argue it before the jury; they have to <BR>
basically come up with it on their own. Some juries do; others blindly follow <BR>
their instructions and come back with guilty verdicts despite not wanting to <BR>
see the defendant go to jail (often rationalizing with the argument, we're <BR>
just finding guilt; the judge will do a fitting and perhaps merciful <BR>
sentence).<BR>
<BR>
Jury nullification has its good and bad sides. <BR>
<BR>
Juries routinely found not guilty whites who killed blacks. The all white <BR>
juries nullified the law and the evidence based on racial beliefs. So even <BR>
though the law said "everyone is equal" the white majority changed it.<BR>
<BR>
Juries routinely found abolitionists aiding runaway slaves not guilty. The <BR>
local jury of their peers nullified the law and the evidence based on a <BR>
belief in a "higher good." So even though the law was unfair, there were <BR>
those who refused to enforce it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:02:45 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>> Apparently he can in "civil" cases. I recall reading recently of a case<BR>
> where a jury rendered a "not guilty" verdict in a patent case, and the<BR>
> judge set aside their verdict.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
Ah, but there is no 'guilty' or 'not guilty' in a civil case in the sense of<BR>
a criminal trial.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:16:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> query as to containment of antimatter.<BR>
> Obviously the good ol gravitic/magnetic field would stop the antimatter from<BR>
> contacting any matter but I was wondering if there are any other means to<BR>
> contain it, or is it inert unless it comes in contact with the matter<BR>
> particle that was created at the same time as it....<BR>
<BR>
That "meet particle created at same time" is Star Trek techno-babble.<BR>
And *poor* technobabble, even at the time!<BR>
<BR>
An anti-proton will react with *any* proton. <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, electric and magnetic fields only work for *charged* particles.<BR>
Storing large numbers of particles with the *same* charge is a real<BR>
pain. So gravitic confinement would be better. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, there are some proposals regarding storing<BR>
anti-protons inside the "spaces" in crystal lattices. You'd still want<BR>
some E-M confinement to help stabilize things, but it might work as a<BR>
step in getting from the "bulk storage" to the "working storage".<BR>
<BR>
Maybe that's what dilithium crystals are for? :-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:08:51 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/30/00 1:41:55 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Juries are part of the judicial branch.  They follow the law.  <BR>
 >><BR>
<BR>
How come they disagree? How come the arrive at different judgments? Can't <BR>
reasonable jurors also come to the same (ie, different?) conclusions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:23:54 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: TCS tournaments (was: HG Squadron)<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 16:53, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > IIRC, one of the big winners of the PBM TCS games turned out to be a<BR>
> > computer program.. Does anyone remember the details of this?.<BR>
<BR>
> Yup. Not a PBM game, but a con tournament, two years running. Famous <BR>
> AI researcher named Doug Lenat entered a fleet that was tuned by a <BR>
> computer program. The program, EURISKO, was a general-purpose one (not a<BR>
> TCS specialist), and it sounds like Doug and EURISKO sort of met halfway on<BR>
> responsibility. :)<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> (forgive the formatting problems breaking the battery/bearing columns)<BR>
> The main point of the fleet is tons of low-factor missile batteries on the<BR>
> Eurisko destroyers, guaranteeing lots of erosion damage to the targets, plus a<BR>
> handful of big ships to soak up fire. There's also some funny business going<BR>
> on with planetoid hulls and drop tanks which is largely exploiting the<BR>
> requirements of this particular tournament.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, the use of drop tanks to meet the jump requirement was specifically <BR>
forbotten after that tournament to prevent the "Super Rock".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:34:03 +1000 <BR>
From: Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au><BR>
Subject: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
I've just started my jump into the traveller universe, Is there a site<BR>
anywhere that has planetary information like history of differing planets,<BR>
houses that kind of thing?<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
Tim<BR>
tminahan@scc.edu.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:43:52 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: New York, New York - A Hell of a Town (was Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:01:49 -0400 (EDT), Tod Glenn<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sure New York, etc is full of very nice people.  I've met many friendly<BR>
>New Yorkers.  But the city has a certain bruskness.  And I'm not used to the<BR>
>word F**k being a noun, verb, adverb and adjective, and used all by it self<BR>
>to make a sentence.  (OK, a former New Yorker co-worker is reading this as I<BR>
>type it and has corrected me.  He's says its "the f**king mooks from Jersey<BR>
>that talk like that".<BR>
<BR>
Well, it's a _little_ more common than that - there is, after<BR>
all, the canonical sentence in which _every_ significant word is<BR>
a conjugation or declension of That Word - "The f***ing f***er's<BR>
f***ing f***ed!" (frequently heard from techies dealing with<BR>
recalcitrant equipment or software)  <BR>
<BR>
Yes, The City has a certain brusqueness [sic]. It's not because<BR>
we don't like you; it's because this is a 36-hour-per-day city -<BR>
and we have to cram it into only 24 hours.  I don't think<BR>
anyone's worked out lossless compression for this, more's the<BR>
pity.<BR>
<BR>
But we _will_ give you the time of day.  Really.<BR>
<BR>
And where else can you hear every language spoken on Earth - and<BR>
probably a few spoken elsewhere?<BR>
<BR>
And where else can you find a kosher cheeseburger (I kid you not<BR>
- - kosher Roast Pork Lo Mein, too)?<BR>
<BR>
And where else will you find two baseball teams playing a<BR>
home-and-home doubleheader (on a single date - July 7)?<BR>
<BR>
And where else will you find a museum totally dedicated to _sex_?<BR>
(Really.  I'm not sure it's opened yet, but it really exists.)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:52:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com> wrote<BR>
> > > I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
> > > was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
<BR>
> > Isn't it a great country where truthfully answering a judges question<BR>
> > can result in contempt and untruthfully answering the question<BR>
> > can result in perjury.<BR>
<BR>
> If your fear of people's reactions leads you to lie about your<BR>
> own opinions, I advise that you just don't hold opinions.<BR>
<BR>
I think you may have misunderstood me. When I said that truthfully<BR>
answering a judges question could result in contempt I meant<BR>
that truthfully answering a judges questions might result<BR>
in that judge finding you 'In Contempt of Court' and having<BR>
you locked up. possibly indefinitely, and/or fined for the<BR>
'crime' of saying something that the judge disagrees with.<BR>
<BR>
This is far different than being regarded with contempt by<BR>
other people. As people who have been on the list a while can<BR>
assure you I most certainly do not allow their negative or<BR>
contemptuous opinions of my fairly literal readings of Traveller <BR>
canon (for example) to dissuade me from holding those opinions.<BR>
<BR>
Rather I am suggesting that some judges mistake disagreement<BR>
for contempt and find people 'In Contempt of Court' when<BR>
they ought not to. In a country that purportedly has free<BR>
speech the though crime of disagreeing with a government<BR>
official ought not to be a crime. It most especially ought<BR>
not to be a crime for which a person can be held indefinitely<BR>
without trial as it is in today's society.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:53:20 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
Timothy Minahan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi all,<BR>
> <BR>
> I've just started my jump into the traveller universe, Is there a site<BR>
> anywhere that has planetary information like history of differing planets,<BR>
> houses that kind of thing?<BR>
<BR>
Limiting myself to currently available materials, here are a couple of<BR>
resources:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/index.html<BR>
<BR>
The TML Landgrab is an ongoing project in which TMLers provide detailed<BR>
information about worlds in the Spinward Marches.<BR>
<BR>
http://pixie.simplenet.com/gaming/libdat/worlds/spinward/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
This site also provides details about worlds in the Marches, although<BR>
its canonicity is not guaranteed.  (You'll learn that many TMLers place<BR>
a great deal of emphasis on Traveller canon.)<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=traveller&index<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=travgearhead;list<BR>
<BR>
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=deckring;list<BR>
<BR>
These are three of the active Traveller webrings, which list over 150<BR>
sites with Traveller material.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, you can also pick up the GURPS Traveller supplement _Behind<BR>
the Claw_ for brief descriptions of all the mainworlds in the Spinward<BR>
Marches.  The upcoming GT supplement _Rim of Fire_ (due out any time<BR>
now) will provide information about the Solomani Rim sector.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, welcome aboard the TML!<BR>
<BR>
Does anybody have a good topic for Timothy's introductory essay<BR>
assignment?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:57:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ships Pets (was:rats)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 4:38 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> The "cheat sheet"/study guide I'm looking at lists just the platypus<BR>
> and the echidnas as members.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, the larger list I had in mind I looked up and is larger because it<BR>
lists all possible names, but only two specific critters. That is as long as<BR>
spiny anteater is another name for echidna, which sounds vaguely familiar.<BR>
Australia has the coolest animals. And plants.<BR>
<BR>
I think parakeets would make good shipboard pets, and hummingbirds would be<BR>
way cool. An aquarium would make a nice addition to a stateroom.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:02:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 6/30/00 4:59 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> If you want some fun, time the Death Star sequence in Star Wars IV. And<BR>
> compare the results with the countdown in the film. :-)<BR>
<BR>
You don't need to time it unless you want to know the exact discrepency,<BR>
it's terribly obvious. And IMSWU did /not/ happen that way. ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:13:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:29 AM 6/30/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Conversely, I've seen quite a few scenes where 'modern' weapons are fired an<BR>
>there is no brass.  Some companies have taken to using full-auto prop guns<BR>
>that are powered by propane, and thus require not complicated federal tax<BR>
>stamps, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Then there is _The Matrix_, where not only is there brass, but the sounds<BR>
of brass and links falling is distinct and different.  Great weapons work<BR>
in that film.<BR>
<BR>
Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another Medical Reaction<BR>
today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the minor characters is a US<BR>
Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the insignia in the right<BR>
place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the Americal Division combat<BR>
patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to be in the correct<BR>
order, and the appropriate ones for a combat infantryman!<BR>
<BR>
The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2700<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2701</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/1/00 1:48:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2701<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
RE: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: TCS tournaments (was: HG Squadron)<BR>
Re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Antimatter<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: New York, New York - A Hell of a Town (was Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Antimatter<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
RE: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:35:41<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
At 11:46 AM 6/30/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
>>You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never <BR>
>>even *seen* a realgun and can only go by what I read. <BR>
><BR>
>You ... must ... come ... to ... America .... <BR>
>to ... Oregon .... Oregon ... Orregoon ...<BR>
>to Mark Cook's home....<BR>
>in Orrregooon......<BR>
<BR>
Coommee be one of ussss.  I even got a cool orange hat.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:19:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
At 07:53 PM 6/30/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does anybody have a good topic for Timothy's introductory essay<BR>
>assignment?<BR>
<BR>
The Lack of Penguins is Staff Positions of the Solomani Navy, and the Short<BR>
Life of the Rule of Man: Is There A Connection?<BR>
<BR>
- -or-<BR>
<BR>
Burning, Tarring, or Scourging with Whips, the Eris Question.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 01:46:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 7:46 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
> >You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never<BR>
> >even *seen* a realgun and can only go by what I read.<BR>
><BR>
> You ... must ... come ... to ... America ....<BR>
> to ... Oregon .... Oregon ... Orregoon ...<BR>
> to Mark Cook's home....<BR>
> in Orrregooon......<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Believe me, I would Luuuuurve to... from the description Doug & Jesse posted<BR>
a few months ago it sounds wonderful!  Maybe later this year or next I can<BR>
get the money together to make a trip to the states... a few days in SF, and<BR>
then a trip up to Marks' Military Menagerie <g><BR>
<BR>
Actually, all I really need to do is get of my butt and get a passport<BR>
sorted out, as I've just had a substantial pay rise (I'm now on roughly<BR>
$27,000 pa, and this month my take-home was ~$1,800 <vbg>), and am currently<BR>
wondering just *how* I'm going to spend all this filthy lucre (heh! heh!)<BR>
<BR>
Still, there's always eBay...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:28:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another Medical Reaction<BR>
> today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the minor characters is a<BR>
US<BR>
> Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the insignia in the right<BR>
> place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the Americal Division combat<BR>
> patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to be in the correct<BR>
> order, and the appropriate ones for a combat infantryman!<BR>
><BR>
> The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
<BR>
You'd think it'd be straight forward... just get a photo of a *real* general<BR>
in uniform, and copy the placing and types of the insignia faithfully...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:03:05 +1000 <BR>
From: Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
This is my planetary background.  I've tried to find some stats on it - (IE<BR>
What does this crypticism mean)<BR>
<BR>
eD Olokono / 3110 E6A5211-5 / Lo Ni Fl / 801 Im M0 V <BR>
<BR>
I understand that 3310 is the sector number but looked in<BR>
http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/ and on every sector map<BR>
could not locate it on any map.  <BR>
<BR>
I gather that E6A5211-5 is the UWP<BR>
<BR>
what does the rest mean?<BR>
<BR>
(Sorry to be a pain)<BR>
Tim<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2000 4:20<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 07:53 PM 6/30/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does anybody have a good topic for Timothy's introductory essay<BR>
>assignment?<BR>
<BR>
The Lack of Penguins is Staff Positions of the Solomani Navy, and the Short<BR>
Life of the Rule of Man: Is There A Connection?<BR>
<BR>
- -or-<BR>
<BR>
Burning, Tarring, or Scourging with Whips, the Eris Question.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:07:53 -0500<BR>
From: richardp <richardp@mac.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TCS tournaments (was: HG Squadron)<BR>
<BR>
On 6/30/00 8:13 PM, Traveller-digest < <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:23:54 +1200<BR>
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
>IIRC, the use of drop tanks to meet the jump requirement was specifically <BR>
>forbotten after that tournament to prevent the "Super Rock".<BR>
<BR>
     And as I heard the story, the next year, Lenat told his computer <BR>
about the rules change and won again.  (I met Lenat in a commercial PBM a <BR>
long time ago; several years later I happened to see him getting <BR>
interviewed for a PBS program about AI and recognized the name and voice <BR>
[from a few phone conversations].  I've wondered ever since whether that <BR>
position had actually been played by him or his current project...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:37:12 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
Timothy Minahan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This is my planetary background.  I've tried to find some stats on it - (IE<BR>
> What does this crypticism mean)<BR>
> <BR>
> eD Olokono / 3110 E6A5211-5 / Lo Ni Fl / 801 Im M0 V<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand that 3310 is the sector number but looked in<BR>
> http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/ and on every sector map<BR>
> could not locate it on any map.<BR>
<BR>
3110 refers to the system coordinates on a hexagon map of the sector. <BR>
Unless you can give the sector name, I can't give you more information.<BR>
> <BR>
> I gather that E6A5211-5 is the UWP<BR>
<BR>
I'm not familiar with this world, but I'll help you translate the<BR>
information:<BR>
<BR>
E6A5211-5 is indeed the UWP.  (If you need help translating that, let us<BR>
know.)<BR>
<BR>
Lo Ni Fl indicates that the world is a Low population (fewer than 10,000<BR>
inhabitants), Non-industrial (fewer than 10,000,000 inhabitants) world<BR>
with a Fluid (non-water) ocean.  These trade classification codes are<BR>
found in Book 7: Merchant Prince, page 36.  Note that you can get Book 7<BR>
as part of the Classic Traveller reprint volume (see below for URL).<BR>
<BR>
801 indicates that the world has a Population multiplier of 8 (8 * 10^P,<BR>
where P=Population code in the UWP), and the system has zero<BR>
planetoid/asteroid belts and one gas giant.  This is often referred to<BR>
as the "PBG" code.<BR>
<BR>
Im indicates that the world is a member of the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
M0 V is the spectral class of the main star in the system (in this case,<BR>
a star of spectral type M, main sequence [V is a Roman numeral]).  In<BR>
other words, Olokono orbits a main sequrnce red dwarf star.  (As a<BR>
contrast, Terra orbits a G2 V star [a main sequence star, 20% of the way<BR>
from Yellow {G} to Orange {K}].)<BR>
<BR>
You can find more information about stellar data in either Book 6:<BR>
Scouts or GURPS Traveller: First In.<BR>
<BR>
For more information on Classic Traveller reprints, see:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, which version of Traveller are you currently using?  If we know<BR>
that, we can direct you to version-specific resurces on the WWW....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:41:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
On Friday, June 30, 2000 5:16 PM<BR>
Leonard Erickson said,<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, there are some proposals regarding storing<BR>
> anti-protons inside the "spaces" in crystal lattices. You'd still want<BR>
> some E-M confinement to help stabilize things, but it might work as a<BR>
> step in getting from the "bulk storage" to the "working storage".<BR>
<BR>
I heard about this idea, but couldn't figure out how you could migrate the<BR>
anti-proton safely out of the lattice without running into a proton.  I<BR>
understand the rigid structure of a crystal lattice can generate a very nice<BR>
domains of magnetic stability where you could keep anti-protons, but would<BR>
you have small tunnels through the crystal structure to these pocket areas?<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
"Thunder is good, thunder is<BR>
 impressive, but it's lightning<BR>
that does the work." --Mark Twain to Nikola Tesla<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:56:48 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
I have also seriously deviated from the "Traveller" norm.  I use TNE rules <BR>
with a euro-asian flair...imperium is not even on the agenda, future <BR>
high-tech japan-china-thai culture is.  pocket empire with a tad of virus <BR>
thrown in.  The collapse hasnt really happened in this sub-sector because <BR>
they seceded from the empire before the viral attack.  I use FF&S1 rules and <BR>
cyberpunk alot along with a bit of TORQ rules (Tharkold).  My worlds focus on <BR>
bio-tech including occasional mutations( like Gamma-world), nano-tech, <BR>
bionics, cyberware, Pharmaceutical mutation, and AI robotics..(since virus <BR>
isnt a big thing here...robotics isnt feared as much..nor heavy <BR>
bionics....just "looked down upon".)  For those Techies out there who say <BR>
"how can virus not have effected this subsector...consider...SDB with a <BR>
combined systems resource pool for materials,  AI developed (before "virus" <BR>
was even planned as project)<BR>
by Two worlds with extreme populations( one with over 40 billion on it...yes <BR>
its almost  impossible for a planet to support that....details on how it's <BR>
done..write me at Omensigil@aol.com) controlled by tyranical businesses that <BR>
make the planet population work on such things...and given a "stereotypical" <BR>
view of Japanese culture amplified to the Nth degree by the future and tell <BR>
my they havent come up with defences against almost any Virus by now <BR>
especially with friendly AIs helping them...puppeteer and all the others <BR>
would have probs big time to even get near the area.....Im not ruling out the <BR>
possibility of taking over the empire as a business conglomerate either. <BR>
(megalomania setting in...must...control.....brain...)  Also weapons havent <BR>
deteriorated in this subsector...theyve gotten better...not broken down.....  <BR>
Anyway, back to the subject.."is anyone else running a similar game?"..<BR>
What's your storyline?  I cant tell if it's similar or not.  Sounds like you <BR>
just have different weapons focus and more emphasis on radioactive effects <BR>
all the rest is the same mega-traveller worlds and situations (not that there <BR>
isnt alot to work with there).  I'd be interested to know what occupations <BR>
you have..given a somewhat "gamma-world-flavored" game. I dont know space <BR>
opera..never played it.  Anyway...happy heresy..more power to free thinking <BR>
non-rulesmith worship GMs...Yea!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:42:29 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
At 01:00 PM 6/30/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"<BR>
> ><a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
><BR>
> >Again, based on 20 year old legal training, yes a jury can<BR>
> >do this. However, it's moderated by a judge's power to set<BR>
><BR>
> >aside a jury verdict (ie the judge  can say "You got it<BR>
> >wrong and I'm changing the verdict").<BR>
><BR>
>In the United States, the judge can't change a verdict of<BR>
>acquittal.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
<BR>
He can declare a mis-trial and have the verdict thrown out. It has happened <BR>
before.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:29:42 +1000 <BR>
From: Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
We are playing mainly CT.  We have T4 book 1 and waiting for ct1-8 to arrive<BR>
from sjgames.  Thanks for the help<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]<BR>
Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2000 12:37<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Timothy Minahan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> This is my planetary background.  I've tried to find some stats on it -<BR>
(IE<BR>
> What does this crypticism mean)<BR>
> <BR>
> eD Olokono / 3110 E6A5211-5 / Lo Ni Fl / 801 Im M0 V<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand that 3310 is the sector number but looked in<BR>
> http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/ and on every sector map<BR>
> could not locate it on any map.<BR>
<BR>
3110 refers to the system coordinates on a hexagon map of the sector. <BR>
Unless you can give the sector name, I can't give you more information.<BR>
> <BR>
> I gather that E6A5211-5 is the UWP<BR>
<BR>
I'm not familiar with this world, but I'll help you translate the<BR>
information:<BR>
<BR>
E6A5211-5 is indeed the UWP.  (If you need help translating that, let us<BR>
know.)<BR>
<BR>
Lo Ni Fl indicates that the world is a Low population (fewer than 10,000<BR>
inhabitants), Non-industrial (fewer than 10,000,000 inhabitants) world<BR>
with a Fluid (non-water) ocean.  These trade classification codes are<BR>
found in Book 7: Merchant Prince, page 36.  Note that you can get Book 7<BR>
as part of the Classic Traveller reprint volume (see below for URL).<BR>
<BR>
801 indicates that the world has a Population multiplier of 8 (8 * 10^P,<BR>
where P=Population code in the UWP), and the system has zero<BR>
planetoid/asteroid belts and one gas giant.  This is often referred to<BR>
as the "PBG" code.<BR>
<BR>
Im indicates that the world is a member of the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
M0 V is the spectral class of the main star in the system (in this case,<BR>
a star of spectral type M, main sequence [V is a Roman numeral]).  In<BR>
other words, Olokono orbits a main sequrnce red dwarf star.  (As a<BR>
contrast, Terra orbits a G2 V star [a main sequence star, 20% of the way<BR>
from Yellow {G} to Orange {K}].)<BR>
<BR>
You can find more information about stellar data in either Book 6:<BR>
Scouts or GURPS Traveller: First In.<BR>
<BR>
For more information on Classic Traveller reprints, see:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, which version of Traveller are you currently using?  If we know<BR>
that, we can direct you to version-specific resurces on the WWW....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:53:31 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs (longish)<BR>
<BR>
On 06/29/00 at 11:37 PM,  "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> >If the rumours of Warehouse23 having it are true I'll be buying it in<BR>
>> >due course. Hmm. One question - how easy is it to bolt onto TNE?<BR>
<BR>
>> They aren't rumours. Warehouse 23 has *all* the in print BITS<BR>
>> products including the recent releases ACQ (*search on At Close<BR>
>> Quarters not ACQ*) and 101 Patrons.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>The main difficulties in using ACQ for TNE are that the latter uses hit<BR>
>locations with different hit capacities, and the stats for weapons and<BR>
>armour are different to those in ACQ (Damage, Penetration, Armour values<BR>
>etc). Also, the task difficulties are much more grainy than any other<BR>
>version. A +1 difficulty halves your chance, compared to adding a die, or<BR>
>a small DM.<BR>
<BR>
Not that I'd discourage *anyone* from buying ACQ, but there is a Snapshot for TNE in the Missouri Archives. I saw it the other day when I was looking for sector data.  TNE folks might want to look at it, if for no other reason than to get ideas on how to use ACQ with TNE.<BR>
<BR>
The url is http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and while I'm mentioning the Missouri Archives, (a) thank you Joe Heck and (b) wasn't there an MT section there at one time that got taken down...or was that Peter Bergmann's site I'm thinking of?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:26:12 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 06/30/00 at 03:40 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'd love to see the results if the prosecutor had to word it along the<BR>
>lines of "Do you think you might excercise your right of jury<BR>
>nullification in this case?" After all, that's what they are *really*<BR>
>trying to find out. <BR>
<BR>
Leonard, they can't say that because they would have to explain that<BR>
such a thing existed and *could* be exercised.  They don't want to<BR>
put that possibility into the jurior's head.  Prosecutors don't want<BR>
the concept of jury nullification to rise into the consciousness of<BR>
the general public for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
Believe it or not, I'm getting Traveller-ideas from this:  putting<BR>
PC's on a jury or tribunal, different sort of court proceedings,<BR>
that sort of thing. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:42:22 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New York, New York - A Hell of a Town (was Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 5:43 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, it's a _little_ more common than that - there is, after<BR>
> all, the canonical sentence in which _every_ significant word is<BR>
> a conjugation or declension of That Word - "The f***ing f***er's<BR>
> f***ing f***ed!" (frequently heard from techies dealing with<BR>
> recalcitrant equipment or software)<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, The City has a certain brusqueness [sic]. It's not because<BR>
> we don't like you; it's because this is a 36-hour-per-day city -<BR>
> and we have to cram it into only 24 hours.  I don't think<BR>
> anyone's worked out lossless compression for this, more's the<BR>
> pity.<BR>
> <BR>
> But we _will_ give you the time of day.  Really.<BR>
> <BR>
> And where else can you hear every language spoken on Earth - and<BR>
> probably a few spoken elsewhere?<BR>
> <BR>
> And where else can you find a kosher cheeseburger (I kid you not<BR>
> - kosher Roast Pork Lo Mein, too)?<BR>
> <BR>
> And where else will you find two baseball teams playing a<BR>
> home-and-home doubleheader (on a single date - July 7)?<BR>
> <BR>
> And where else will you find a museum totally dedicated to _sex_?<BR>
> (Really.  I'm not sure it's opened yet, but it really exists.)<BR>
<BR>
Amsterdam.  The sex museum.<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
But your point is well taken. New York is pretty neat, but I'll pass on<BR>
living there.  Us hicks just like to go there to gawk.  I like the fact that<BR>
New York is an icon.  We have a "New York minute", and my personal favorite,<BR>
the 'New York reload'.  In fact, IMTU, Regina Up Port is sort of a<BR>
'Deathwish' view of NYC.<BR>
<BR>
Regina "where the weak are killed and eaten"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:55:06 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe that's what dilithium crystals are for? :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Dilithium crystals were supposed to be for focusing the stream of plasma<BR>
which is generated by the collective streams of matter and antimattter that<BR>
was being infused into it<BR>
'The only material known to Federation Science to be non-reactive with<BR>
antimatter when subjected to a high frequency electromagnetic field in the<BR>
megawatt range, rendering it "porous to antihydrogen'<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:14:16 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
>Nonetheless, blockading public buildings such as hotels and clinics is NOT<BR>
>peaceful protest, nor is verbally assaulting persons engaged in their<BR>
>business who attempt to enter places of business where they have<BR>
>legitimate business.  It never fails to piss me off that the Left endorses<BR>
>such tactics vs. the WTO but vilifies them in the case of Operation<BR>
>Rescue.<BR>
<BR>
I hear that there's a debate right now among the various arms of the<BR>
nefarious, yet nebulous, "Left" concerning how to weather Kiri's wrath.<BR>
You've got them running scared. Of course, it is possible to feel that the<BR>
use of a particular tactic is just in one case and not just in another case.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once, a<BR>
long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a man<BR>
from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I recall<BR>
correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It would seem<BR>
by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm not prepared<BR>
to believe this.<BR>
<BR>
>I define "civil disobedience" as CIVIL disobedience--<BR>
<BR>
Thoreau, who coined the term, meant CIVIL disobedience as well. Placing<BR>
emphasis on the word civil is meaningless as the word civil has several<BR>
meanings. Since I'm not going to try to assume I know what you meant, I'll<BR>
leave it at that.<BR>
<BR>
>praying is one thing, shouting obscenities and insults and threats is not.<BR>
<BR>
Praying, in and of itself, isn't really civil disobedience as Thoreau meant<BR>
it in his essay. Perhaps praying while burning a draft card, or maybe<BR>
refusing to pay taxes, might be "civil disobedience". I think that there are<BR>
times to shout obscenities, insults and threats and times when it is<BR>
inappropriate to do so.<BR>
<BR>
>I define peaceful protest as NO COERCION--<BR>
<BR>
I think that we're likely working from two different definitions of coercion<BR>
as well. For example, a boycott is an attempt at coercion. It is an attempt<BR>
to bring about a certain choice or decision through overwhelming pressure.<BR>
As above, I'm not in the mood to assume that I know what you mean.<BR>
<BR>
>passive violence is still violence.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, not all coercion is violent, passive or otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
>I despise the casuistry involved in stating that a protest is not violent<BR>
>when threats, loud shouting (all classifiable as assault), blockading<BR>
>(classifiable as illegal arrest and also as an act of war), and other such<BR>
>tactics are used simply because no weapons were carried and the protesters<BR>
>didn't throw the first punch.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I know. I despise that too. I always point out how Rosa Parks was<BR>
obviously a violent criminal when folks say she was a hero. After all it was<BR>
an act of war, and she was making an illegal arrest!<BR>
<BR>
>Someone said that they thought five minutes was about the allowable amount<BR>
>of time a picket line can detain someone.  I like that.  It's annoying<BR>
>(and hence unlikely to change anyone's mind) but it's not assault and it's<BR>
>not unlawful arrest.<BR>
<BR>
I'm glad you like that. Myself, I'm just wondering how long it took Rosa<BR>
Parks got her violent criminal butt out of that seat. It is certainly true<BR>
that she annoyed the guy who wanted to sit down, and possibly some other<BR>
white folks on the bus. That damnable and annoying Rosa Parks!<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>Also the thing that bugs me about the whole WTO protest is we NEED an<BR>
>international rule of law with respect to trade.  The fact that we don't<BR>
>like their decisions means we need to work to find a way to get our<BR>
>objections heard legitimately, not disband the organization.<BR>
<BR>
You are doing this in what way, exactly?<BR>
<BR>
>One doesn't blockade the White House or call for the congress to<BR>
>be disbanded because it passes a stupid law, there are ways to deal<BR>
>with these issues.<BR>
<BR>
Of course not. That's because, in theory (although it's not that way in<BR>
practice, according to some), the people of the United States can make a<BR>
decision about who goes into the White House and who will represent them in<BR>
congress. There are ways to deal with those issues because America was<BR>
designed to be a democratic institution. On the other hand, the World Trade<BR>
Organization is not a democratic institution. It was not set up to be a<BR>
democratic institution. It doesn't even go to any length to give anyone the<BR>
impression it is a democratic institution. Its strongest supporters claim<BR>
that the reason it is effective is because it is not a democratic<BR>
institution.<BR>
<BR>
Although I'll probably regret this, I'll bite. What ways are there to deal<BR>
with issues such as the ones which people felt the need to protest against<BR>
in Seattle?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:46:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>As far as anarchists, we have the real thing.  Not trendy neo-liberal<BR>
types.<BR>
<BR>
As I said before, so does Philadelphia. I meant it initially, and I mean it<BR>
now. I know an anarchist when I meet one and I know a "trendy neo-liberal<BR>
type" when I meet one. I wouldn't have said that Philadelphia has anarchists<BR>
if I didn't actually know that Philadelphia has anarchists.<BR>
<BR>
>These ones would be throwing bombs if they had them. Remember the WTO<BR>
>protest in Seattle.  Most of those nut-bars were from Eugene, a town an<BR>
hour<BR>
>south of Portland.  These people have their semi-monthly riot, and I expect<BR>
>that the Eugene police dept is as experienced in riot control as any major<BR>
>metropolis like New York, LA, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I'm familiar with the anarchists in Eugene, such as the Black Army<BR>
Faction. I understand that some of them are coming this way for the direct<BR>
action and protests planned for the Republican National Convention. If they<BR>
do, there's a very good chance that I may see them in action, up close and<BR>
personal. There's a chance that I may meet some of them.<BR>
<BR>
I'm also familiar with the works of John Zerzan, who is the reason Eugene<BR>
has become an anarchist mecca. I don't really agree with him, but that's<BR>
neither here nor there.<BR>
<BR>
I've also been following events as they unfold in Eugene through stories in<BR>
Eugene's local paper on the internet and communiques from the anarchists in<BR>
Eugene.<BR>
<BR>
So, I stand by what I originally said, which was: "While I know nothing<BR>
about New York's anarchists, Philadelphia's anarchists (and other assorted<BR>
radicals) seem like pretty good folks, and they're active enough for my<BR>
tastes." If you want to debate the finer points of anarchy, or what defines<BR>
a "real" anarchist, I'll gladly do so in private mail. All I will say on<BR>
this point is that anarchists can be active in a wide variety of ways. Not<BR>
all of them make the paper, nor do all of them require the throwing of<BR>
bombs, the smashing of windows or the stopping of traffic.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sure New York, etc is full of very nice people.  I've met many friendly<BR>
>New Yorkers.  But the city has a certain bruskness.  And I'm not used to<BR>
the<BR>
>word F**k being a noun, verb, adverb and adjective, and used all by it self<BR>
>to make a sentence.  (OK, a former New Yorker co-worker is reading this as<BR>
I<BR>
>type it and has corrected me.  He's says its "the f**king mooks from Jersey<BR>
>that talk like that".<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm from Philadelphia. We have our own nuances when we speak. Get me<BR>
riled up, and I could probably make a sailor blush. I plead the fifth on<BR>
this one. I've found quite a few uses for the word in question, and other<BR>
words which are arguably worse.<BR>
<BR>
>Every place has it's own special charm ("except possibly Newark"--he said<BR>
>that, not me.)<BR>
<BR>
Nah. There are some places which are just dumps. :)<BR>
<BR>
>Really, my ideal place.  Africa.  Too much Capstick I suppose.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry to say I don't get this part.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:52:48 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: RQ (was RE: Gun Loving PCs)<BR>
<BR>
trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> >  And RQ4 (aka Hero Wars; ) doesn't worry about it at all,<BR>
> > though it could be a side affect...<BR>
><BR>
>      Calling Hero Wars RQ4 is greatly misrepresenting the matter.<BR>
>  Despite sharing the same world-setting (Glorantha), RQ and Hero<BR>
> Wars have opposite design philosophies and are thoroughly<BR>
> incompatible (RQ = very detail oriented, kinda like Traveller;<BR>
> Hero Wars = extremely abstract and free-form, sort of a cross<BR>
> between Pendragon and 'Amber').<BR>
<BR>
He's saying that because Hero Wars is the _default_ RQ4, seeing as no other<BR>
has been released, and no-one would have accepted the Avalon Hill version as<BR>
RQ anyway, despite the labeling<BR>
<BR>
Just because they use different rule systems doesn't disqualify HW from<BR>
being RQ4, otherwise "Marc Miller's Traveller" couldn't have been T4 !<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
>      Before being absorbed by Hasbro, Avalon Hill were supposedly<BR>
> working on their own version of RQ4.  From what I've heard,<BR>
> though, it was essentially a whole different game riding on the<BR>
> familiar name.<BR>
<BR>
It was called "Runequest : Slayers" and I have the promotional literature<BR>
that was sent out<BR>
just before release (which was canned when they were bought out ).<BR>
<BR>
It looked to me like an attempt to re-release to Avalon Hill's original RPG<BR>
under the RQ name.<BR>
<BR>
> There are also variant RQs by all of the original<BR>
> designers (Perrin, Turney, Petersen) and parts of an<BR>
> almost-published RQ4 draft from the early 90s floating around for<BR>
> free on the net, but I highly doubt any of them will ever be published.<BR>
<BR>
None of them can curently be published as RQ4, unless Hasbro allows it.<BR>
BTW, if anyone wants a copy of the first RQ4, mail me off list.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2701<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2702<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Antimatter<BR>
Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2701<BR>
Re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: maps page moved<BR>
Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:10:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Friday, 30 June 2000 20:08<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 3:17 -0400 30/6/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to<BR>
> trial.  The<BR>
> >facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that the man is 'not<BR>
> >guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If you find that<BR>
> the events<BR>
> >as presented by the prosecution are true, etc...then you must find the<BR>
> >defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries has the power to ignore all the<BR>
> >evidence if they choose.  I suppose some would consider this 'justice' as<BR>
> >opposed to 'law'.  I'm not sure I disagree.<BR>
><BR>
> I think that can happen in UK law, unless they removed it with the<BR>
> reduction of the right to silence. (Basically, you can be silent, but<BR>
> the Judge can instruct the jury to infer that the silence could be an<BR>
> admission of of guilt). No doubt PLST or AMV will correct me here ;-)<BR>
<BR>
In New Zealand, if the jury found the defendant innocent despite the law,<BR>
the judge would probably dismiss the jury and call it a mistrial.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:46:09 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In message <FIEIIPCDIJMAHCHBOHAFIECMCAAA.webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes<BR>
>Hard to believe this is America<BR>
<BR>
It isn't.  HTH HAND<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:52:11 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>>>Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include <BR>
>>>the draft? The draft is slavery the only real difference<BR>
>>>is who your owner is. <BR>
> <BR>
>>The draft is simply excluded from the definition of<BR>
>>slavery.  The government (Imperial or local) can always<BR>
>>conscript people to serve the needs of the state.  <BR>
> <BR>
>That depends on how hypocritical and self serving it is.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not going to argue with you about whether you are right about your<BR>
belief that a draft is equivalent to slavery, any more than I would argue<BR>
with someone who claimed that taxation is theft. All I will point out is<BR>
that not everybody agrees with you, and that is is possible for someone<BR>
to be against slavery and yet condone a draft. There's no reason to<BR>
suppose that the elite of the 3rd Imperium are not among them.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover I was not aware being a Merchant or an Other served<BR>
>the needs of the state.<BR>
<BR>
Also, I note that you didn't attempt to refute the post where I pointed out<BR>
that it is ridiculous to suppose that the Other category had an actual<BR>
legally established draft procedure and almost as ridiculous to suppose<BR>
that the Merchants did. You merely ignored it.<BR>
<BR>
("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
 <BR>
>In the Imperium some early Emperor probably ruled that the Draft was not<BR>
>Chattel Slavery and hence did not violate the Warrant of Restoration.<BR>
<BR>
It is even more propable that the draft of the character generation system<BR>
does not represent an actual Imperial draft.<BR>
<BR>
>Keep rolling 12's on the renlistment roll, and you are serving for life.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR present-day national armies where it is possible for personnel to be<BR>
kept past their enlistment period in the event of a national emergency. I<BR>
also STR that this is often part of the enlistment CONTRACT. Y'know, the<BR>
agreement voluntarily entered into by the person being kept past the<BR>
agreed enlistment period.<BR>
<BR>
For instance, anyone volunteering to serve in the Danish army may be asked<BR>
to extend their term of enlistment in order to train to be an NCO. Some of<BR>
my friends were so required, and while some of them didn't like it, all of<BR>
them would have a laughing fit if you were to suggest that this resembled<BR>
slavery in any shape or form.<BR>
<BR>
>Apparently not but we have no canon evidence (other than the<BR>
>presence of the draft) to confirm this.<BR>
<BR>
And neither do we have any canon evidence that the draft in the character<BR>
generation system represents an actual Imperial (or local) draft. And a<BR>
good reason (the fact that the so-called draft can land you in a Free<BR>
Trader or the Others) to suppose that it does not.<BR>
<BR>
>>I think you're over-reading the character generation rules.<BR>
><BR>
>How so? Character generation rules can be seen as applying<BR>
>to NPC's as well as to PC's as in 1001 Characters and Citizens<BR>
>of the Imperium two books that are full of NPC's created<BR>
>using the character generation system.<BR>
<BR>
The CGS implies that there exists some people who correspond to the<BR>
characters that can be generated using the system. It does imply that<BR>
these characters are representative. If they were, more than 3% of the<BR>
population would be Imperial nobles.<BR>
 <BR>
>A CT Other is not necessarily a petty criminal "Not all<BR>
>characters in the Other are ex criminals." [Trav Book p 20]<BR>
>I'd say that petty criminals may be better represented in<BR>
>CT by Citizens of the Imperium's Rogue career.<BR>
<BR>
No, but the Others do not represent a service like the four Imperial<BR>
forces, nor do the Merchants.<BR>
 <BR>
>"Should an attempt at enlistment fail, the character must<BR>
>submit to the draft. Each of the six services has a draft<BR>
>number; the draftee rolls one die and enters the service<BR>
>with that draft number." [The Traveller Book p 18] That<BR>
>sure sounds like the Imperium is drafting citizens into<BR>
>petty criminal organizations and merchant fleets.<BR>
<BR>
It sure sounds like it. And since this is patently ridiculous, we can<BR>
conclude that the draft in the CGS does not represent a true draft in<BR>
at least two of the six cases. It is therefore quite reasonable to<BR>
assume that it does not necessarily represent a true draft in the four<BR>
other cases either.<BR>
<BR>
>>In the military services, it is<BR>
>>entirely possible that you won't be permitted to leave when<BR>
>>you want; that's part of military service.  In any other<BR>
>>services, mandatory re-enlistment is to be interpreted in<BR>
>>some way that makes sense -- militarization of a merchant<BR>
>>fleet during wartime, for example.  <BR>
> <BR>
>It does not matter _why_ the charecter is not permitted to<BR>
>quit his job. The point I am trying to make is that when<BR>
>_civilians_ are regularly (1/36th of the time) forbidden to<BR>
>quit their jobs every four years in a society that purportedly<BR>
>does not allow slavery then something is wrong. <BR>
<BR>
Only if you believe that enforcing a contract is slavery.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>[1] To the extent that the courts disagree with me they are wrong.<BR>
<BR>
That may be, but if a large number of people disagree with you (as I<BR>
believe is the case), then it is perfectly reasonable to postulate a<BR>
fictive society (in casu, the 3rd Imperium) where most of the population<BR>
also disagree with you.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the<BR>
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".<BR>
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:57:24 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Apparently the draft is 'canon'.  IMTU, if you are a CO, you can get<BR>
>assigned to a medical unit or some such.  You still get shot at, but you<BR>
>don't have to carry that heavy gun. I'll pass.<BR>
<BR>
I do not think that the draft in the character generation rules makes an<BR>
Imperial draft canon any more than the roll for social status makes it<BR>
canon that 3% of the population of the Imperium are Imperial nobles (Or<BR>
any sort of nobles,  for that matter).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."<BR>
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:43:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Someone said that they thought five minutes was about the allowable amount<BR>
> of time a picket line can detain someone.  I like that.  It's annoying<BR>
> (and hence unlikely to change anyone's mind) but it's not assault and it's<BR>
> not unlawful arrest.<BR>
><BR>
> If I were blockaded in or out of a building by protesters, I'd sue the<BR>
> hell out of them for false arrest, just as I'd charge anyone who threw<BR>
> paint on my fur with assault.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, when the protestors blocked the doors to Powell's here in<BR>
Portland, I'd been downtown and had almost *gone* to Powell's. I'd<BR>
likely have arrived just in time to get stuck inside. And damn right<BR>
I'd have buttonholed the nearest cop after I did get out about filing<BR>
an "unlawful imprisonment" complaint.<BR>
<BR>
From the news footage *I* saw the cops either weren't out of line or<BR>
weren't much out of line. You see, the people doing this hadn't gotten<BR>
a parade permit. I'm not up on the details, but apparently they had<BR>
some sort of objection to doing so. In any case the cops *did* have<BR>
advance notice about where and when things were going to start. <BR>
<BR>
The trouble started when the cops told them to move along (*not*<BR>
"disperse"!) and they wouldn't. <BR>
<BR>
And considering that at Powells, they completely blocked 10th and<BR>
blocked half of Burnside (a *major* street) DURING RUSH HOUR, it's a<BR>
wonder that more weren't arrested. <BR>
<BR>
Frankly, I expect that many of them *wanted* to be arrested. So the<BR>
cops were likely under orders to try to just keep them moving and try<BR>
to ignore the minor stuff.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:54:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 06/30/00 at 03:40 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>I'd love to see the results if the prosecutor had to word it along the<BR>
>>lines of "Do you think you might excercise your right of jury<BR>
>>nullification in this case?" After all, that's what they are *really*<BR>
>>trying to find out. <BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, they can't say that because they would have to explain that<BR>
> such a thing existed and *could* be exercised.  They don't want to<BR>
> put that possibility into the jurior's head.  Prosecutors don't want<BR>
> the concept of jury nullification to rise into the consciousness of<BR>
> the general public for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you think I said I'd love to see the result. I *know* all that.<BR>
<BR>
> Believe it or not, I'm getting Traveller-ideas from this:  putting<BR>
> PC's on a jury or tribunal, different sort of court proceedings,<BR>
> that sort of thing. <g><BR>
<BR>
Here's an idea from a high school friend who was on the debate team. <BR>
<BR>
Use trial by combat, but allow hiring "gladiators at law" much the way<BR>
we hire lawyers. And I guess it would be "If you are unfit for combat<BR>
and cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you."<BR>
<BR>
I wonder if the PCs would dig deep enough to find out that they could<BR>
hire a gladiator at law? After all, they'd be unlikely to be "unfit for<BR>
combat". <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 02:58:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Friday, June 30, 2000 5:16 PM<BR>
> Leonard Erickson said,<BR>
><BR>
>> On the other hand, there are some proposals regarding storing<BR>
>> anti-protons inside the "spaces" in crystal lattices. You'd still want<BR>
>> some E-M confinement to help stabilize things, but it might work as a<BR>
>> step in getting from the "bulk storage" to the "working storage".<BR>
><BR>
> I heard about this idea, but couldn't figure out how you could migrate the<BR>
> anti-proton safely out of the lattice without running into a proton.  I<BR>
> understand the rigid structure of a crystal lattice can generate a very nice<BR>
> domains of magnetic stability where you could keep anti-protons, but would<BR>
> you have small tunnels through the crystal structure to these pocket areas?<BR>
<BR>
The spaces between atoms in crystals are actually fairly large compared<BR>
to the size of the nuclei involved.<BR>
<BR>
It'd be a bit tricky getting the anti-protons out, but should be doable.<BR>
<BR>
I recall an aricle in Analog that speculated that something like this<BR>
was deep in the mantle and providing the energy for the magma plume<BR>
that's responsible for the Hawaiian Islands. <BR>
<BR>
Basicly a "crashed alien ship" that punched thru the sea floor and all<BR>
that's left is the AM storage, which is slowly leaking.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:07:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception OT:<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> > Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com> wrote<BR>
>> > > I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
>> > > was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
><BR>
>> > Isn't it a great country where truthfully answering a judges question<BR>
>> > can result in contempt and untruthfully answering the question<BR>
>> > can result in perjury.<BR>
><BR>
>> If your fear of people's reactions leads you to lie about your<BR>
>> own opinions, I advise that you just don't hold opinions.<BR>
><BR>
> I think you may have misunderstood me. When I said that truthfully<BR>
> answering a judges question could result in contempt I meant<BR>
> that truthfully answering a judges questions might result<BR>
> in that judge finding you 'In Contempt of Court' and having<BR>
> you locked up. possibly indefinitely, and/or fined for the<BR>
> 'crime' of saying something that the judge disagrees with.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you *can't* be held indefinitely. Thewre's a Supreme Court<BR>
decision about it. Apparently they have to review the situation at<BR>
least every six months. And if prolonged imprisonment isn't going to<BR>
change your mind, they have to let you go.<BR>
<BR>
Note that this was for witnesses who refuse to testify. The idea behind<BR>
the verdict is that the idea was to compel compliance with the court's<BR>
orders *not* to punish. <BR>
<BR>
So I expect that it'd be fairly easy to point out that holding you for<BR>
longer than that for merely annoying the judge isn't allowed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:42:39 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2701<BR>
<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > And where else can you hear every language spoken on Earth - and<BR>
> > probably a few spoken elsewhere?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And where else can you find a kosher cheeseburger (I kid you not -<BR>
> > kosher Roast Pork Lo Mein, too)?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And where else will you find two baseball teams playing a<BR>
> > home-and-home doubleheader (on a single date - July 7)?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > And where else will you find a museum totally dedicated to _sex_?<BR>
> > (Really.  I'm not sure it's opened yet, but it really exists.)<BR>
<BR>
All that and more in the US's other greatest city, LA.  I lived there <BR>
for 4 years and both loved and loathed it, and while I'd never in a <BR>
million years move back, I still miss it at times.  Besides, I can <BR>
now tell great stories about earthquakes and riots.  <BR>
<BR>
Every language on Earth, being the largest single concentration of <BR>
at least 4 ethnic groups Samoans and at least 3 others) including <BR>
cities in these ethnic groups native country, and places like Yan's <BR>
Chinese Kosher deli, and innumerable local fast food places selling <BR>
teriyaki bowls, burritos, burgers, and bento.<BR>
<BR>
I've visited NYC and lived in LA, and while I greatly prefer LA, both <BR>
are very much worth visiting (yeah, I had one of my suitcases <BR>
stolen my first day in LA, but such is life in the big city...). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:12:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> This is my planetary background.  I've tried to find some stats on it - (IE<BR>
> What does this crypticism mean)<BR>
><BR>
> eD Olokono / 3110 E6A5211-5 / Lo Ni Fl / 801 Im M0 V <BR>
><BR>
> I understand that 3310 is the sector number but looked in<BR>
> http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/ and on every sector map<BR>
> could not locate it on any map.  <BR>
><BR>
> I gather that E6A5211-5 is the UWP<BR>
><BR>
> what does the rest mean?<BR>
<BR>
No idea what the "eD" means. <BR>
<BR>
Trade codes: Lo Ni Fl<BR>
<BR>
Lo  =  Low population<BR>
Ni  =  Non-industrial<BR>
Fl  =  Fluid hydrographics (ie the Hydrographics percentage describes<BR>
       oceans of something other than water)<BR>
<BR>
PBG: 801<BR>
  Pop modifier 8 (ie 8 * 10^2, for a total pop of 800)<BR>
  Belts = 0, no planetoid/asteroid belts<BR>
  Gas Giants = 1<BR>
<BR>
Im means it's part of the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
M0 V means it has one star, spectral type M zero, size V.<BR>
<BR>
And apparently there are no bases, as there's no "base code".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:23:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I have also seriously deviated from the "Traveller" norm.  I use TNE rules <BR>
> with a euro-asian flair...imperium is not even on the agenda, future <BR>
> high-tech japan-china-thai culture is.<BR>
<BR>
So. You can *still* have an Emperor. It's just that the "Son of Heaven"<BR>
and his court will be rather "different".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:17:51 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
That's how we currently store antimatter (is it worth making anything<BR>
else besides antihydrogen?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 01:35:46 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: maps page moved<BR>
<BR>
Moin Anthony Jackson,<BR>
<BR>
> It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
<BR>
  cool - I realy like the PDF - what's your tool to produce them ?<BR>
  is the tool portable towards Unix/Linux ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:54:15 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The Vilani and infectious diseases : an attempted 'done to death', longish<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> I'm not so sure about this one.  If E Coli can live in sewage, they<BR>
> should be able to live on Vland.....<BR>
<BR>
<devil's advocate><BR>
Perhaps beyond the ordure, the environment might as well be as hostile<BR>
to them as an operating autoclave, say? Only a few will survive, once<BR>
the 'nutrient bundle' is exhausted.<BR>
</devil's advocate><BR>
<BR>
> Aside frome the issue about whether Vilani microbes are really<BR>
> going to be that poor, if the humans come with terrestrial<BR>
> microbes, they are going to undergo evolution and some of them<BR>
> will become a problem.<BR>
The latter point is indisputable. We've both said that a number of<BR>
times. On the other hand, how difficult the transition is for 'jumping<BR>
microbes' is exactly where we differ in opinion.<BR>
<BR>
> But that is what bacteria do.  Most bacteria actually have the<BR>
> machinery to make and use an array of compounds and they adapt<BR>
> that to a new situation.<BR>
I'd regard this as a property of living things in general - it looks<BR>
like you could define 'metabolism' that way.<BR>
<BR>
The original comment was in regard to the development of antibiotic<BR>
resistance, which has been a point you have been reiterating. That<BR>
particular 'arms race' has been going on for a very long time, and<BR>
multicellular life is still here.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, if microbes from Vland get in a human and encounter the same<BR>
> mortality rate, they are seeing the same level of selective pressure.<BR>
> If they see a smaller one, it is because they are already partially<BR>
> or mostly adapted to the situation.<BR>
Again, where we differ in opinion is about the first bit : how readily<BR>
Vland-derived microbes can colonise humans - whether they have the<BR>
opportunity to adapt in sufficient frequency with time to become the<BR>
subject of something more than obscure case reports in Vilani medical<BR>
journals, or footnotes in microbiology texts.<BR>
<BR>
In the beginning, I doggedly clung to the notion that bacterial<BR>
infections would be rare, almost unheard of on Vland. The extreme view<BR>
that virulent mutants would be uniformly self-destructive (lacking<BR>
reservoir niches) was excessive.<BR>
<BR>
Bacterial diseases are going to affect humans on Vland.<BR>
Most of them will be from virulent strains of commensals the Vilani<BR>
brought with them ; some will arise from 'extremophile' Vland bacteria<BR>
that can produce the necessary adhesion factors and make use of the<BR>
nutrients on offer from man.<BR>
Hygeine will help lower the incidence and severity of outbreaks.<BR>
Then medical science starts playing with drugs, and the rest is in the<BR>
revised post.<BR>
<BR>
We're arguing over probabilities which can't be readily quantified.<BR>
Let's call it quits, David.<BR>
Have the last word. Please keep it polite.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 06:00:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/1/00 5:17 AM, robocon@ozemail.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
> <BR>
> That's how we currently store antimatter (is it worth making anything<BR>
> else besides antihydrogen?)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here you guys go again, making me look stuff up. ;) Never heard of them, so<BR>
I had to do a search.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bldrdoc.gov/timefreq/ion/penning/penning.htm<BR>
<BR>
The TML. Far better than high school.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 15:59:10 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Moin John Snead,<BR>
<BR>
> Sure, things got violent after the police attacked. The police up<BR>
> there were using tactics designed to incite a riot not to stop one.<BR>
> With a riot the cops would have an excuse to crack down hard on the<BR>
> protestors and so protect the slimeballs at the conference.<BR>
<BR>
  divide & emperor<BR>
<BR>
  Common covernment tactics is to divide "peacefull" from "militant".<BR>
<BR>
  Inviting a riot within a peacefull group ensures that, some will<BR>
  fight the police, while others try to dispense. Handling a demonstration<BR>
  of several 1000 people, who are strong in staying "peacefull" is<BR>
  impossible for the covernment without losing its white collars.<BR>
<BR>
  A usual way to draw public simpathy from a left wing movement is<BR>
  to use some 'so called terrorists', who are in reality finananced<BR>
  and controled by some intelligence agency, to support this left<BR>
  wing movement. The government can be sure to divide a movement, if<BR>
  some people are starting to throw bombs or to hijack airliners,<BR>
  while claiming to support this movement.<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tod Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
> Hey, John, I AGREE with you about the WTO. Any time that you can get greens,<BR>
> anarchist, organized labor and right-wing conservatives to agree that<BR>
> something is bad, there's a good chance they're right.<BR>
<BR>
  no they are wrong ;-( at least for the real anarchists ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  For anarchists, single-issue campaigning can be seen as a source of<BR>
  false hopes. The possibilities of changing one aspect of a totally<BR>
  inter-related system and the belief that pressure groups can compete<BR>
  fairly with transnational corporations, the military and so forth,<BR>
  in their influence over decision making bodies can both be seen to be<BR>
  optimistic at best.<BR>
<BR>
  In addition, many "single-issue" campaigns desire to be "apolitical",        <BR>
  concentrating purely on the one issue which unites the campaign and<BR>
  so refuse to analyse or discuss the system they are trying to change.<BR>
<BR>
> But some of our local anarchist are not what I would call peaceful<BR>
> protestors.  Peaceful protestors do not firebomb police cars.<BR>
<BR>
  I wont call myself a "peaceful protestors" - I dislike to fight<BR>
  the government at a place, it can play its strength - police -<BR>
  to counter my fight. Hagakure states, that one should not start<BR>
  a fight, if he cant win it. And in this case public demonstrations<BR>
  and public militant manifestations, are not my way - but your milage<BR>
  may vary. <BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  What about internal dissent in the 3I.  We here about terrorist<BR>
> groups like Ine Givar, but are there large, internal groups who practice<BR>
> peaceful or not so peaceful protest.  Do we have large, multi-system<BR>
> 'movements' like the freeman, Posse Comitatus (sp?), ALF, Army of God, KKK<BR>
> (OK, Solomani have got this covered), Red Brigade, People for the Unethical<BR>
> Murder of Cats Now (PUMpCiN) etc.  Anyone documented various 'domestic<BR>
> terrorist' organizations in the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
  Of course we have - moving to a planet that has an other government may<BR>
  be one of the most important resons, for the Liner classes. So we have<BR>
  many dissidents who may perhaps become convinced to go back under a wrong<BR>
  ID to fight their former government. Those 'freedom fighter' groups, had<BR>
  been financed and controled by various intelligence agencies in the late<BR>
  3I. Any of them increased in founding during the rebellion (1120-1130),<BR>
  as we can see in many HIWG documents.<BR>
<BR>
  e.g.<BR>
#-----------------------------------CUT HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
OVERVIEW                                                                        <BR>
      The Covert Survey Bureau (CSB) is the logical choice for Strephon's       <BR>
secret agency.<BR>
      Even in the former heartland of the Imperium there are dissidents -       <BR>
corsairs, terrorists, criminal elements, and so on - who would take up arms     <BR>
against the government. The CSB's policy is to contact those groups in their    <BR>
rivals' territories, and give them arms, money, and specialists advice. The     <BR>
CSB is not concerned with what these groups stand for; all that matters is      <BR>
that they oppose their government and are prepared to take action. Of course,   <BR>
should such action be against the CSB's interests, their supplies of guns and   <BR>
cash dry up.                                                                    <BR>
#-----------------------------------CUT HERE-----------------------------------#<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:35:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?<BR>
<BR>
on 6/30/00 11:46 PM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> <BR>
>> As far as anarchists, we have the real thing.  Not trendy neo-liberal<BR>
> types.<BR>
> <BR>
> As I said before, so does Philadelphia. I meant it initially, and I mean it<BR>
> now. I know an anarchist when I meet one and I know a "trendy neo-liberal<BR>
> type" when I meet one. I wouldn't have said that Philadelphia has anarchists<BR>
> if I didn't actually know that Philadelphia has anarchists.<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
I consider my self chastened, Chris.  I am embarrassed to say you seem to<BR>
know about the local characters than I.<BR>
<BR>
> Nah. There are some places which are just dumps. :)<BR>
> <BR>
>> Really, my ideal place.  Africa.  Too much Capstick I suppose.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm sorry to say I don't get this part.<BR>
<BR>
The late Peter Hathaway Capstick.  A former stock broker turned professional<BR>
white hunter.  He wrote for various gun and sport magazines and published a<BR>
dozen books.  Highly recommended reading if you like adventure or have the<BR>
vaguest interest in hunting. Look for the "Death in the ..." series.  Death<BR>
in the long grass, death in the silent places.  There are about a zillion<BR>
(highly technical term) safari adventures in there, and some great NPCs.<BR>
One of our local traveller 'characters', Peter Corbett Bell, is directly<BR>
stolen from Capstick and several historical figures he rights about.<BR>
<BR>
I'm prepping a mini-adventure right now that I'll be posting on our website,<BR>
and/or posting here: "The Sophont eaters of Tsaro".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2702<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2703</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2703<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
PBeM Campaign Teaser - Entropic Worlds War<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: rats<BR>
RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Risk perception and voting<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:46:34 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
on 7/1/00 2:57 AM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> I do not think that the draft in the character generation rules makes an<BR>
> Imperial draft canon any more than the roll for social status makes it<BR>
> canon that 3% of the population of the Imperium are Imperial nobles (Or<BR>
> any sort of nobles,  for that matter).<BR>
<BR>
Hans, I don't mean to imply that the practice is widespread, just that<BR>
'canon' allows it.  In point of fact, I rarely worry about what is 'canon',<BR>
and MTU is very 'non-canon'.  This IS a game, right?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Heresy" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Will work for sex." --Bill Clinton<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 07:52:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/1/00 3:43 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Hell, when the protestors blocked the doors to Powell's here in<BR>
> Portland, I'd been downtown and had almost *gone* to Powell's. I'd<BR>
> likely have arrived just in time to get stuck inside. And damn right<BR>
> I'd have buttonholed the nearest cop after I did get out about filing<BR>
> an "unlawful imprisonment" complaint.<BR>
<BR>
They Blocked Powell's!?  I'm sorry, but that just goes beyond the pale.<BR>
(for those not familiar with Powell's, we in Portland are fortunate to be<BR>
home to the world's largest bookstore).<BR>
<BR>
There is only one thing to be done about anyone who would block or in anyway<BR>
restrict the access to this holy place book worship".<BR>
<BR>
"Get a rope..."<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who is curios should check out http://www.powells.com.  And no, I do<BR>
not work for them.  I just give them lots of my money.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:13:06 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: PBeM Campaign Teaser - Entropic Worlds War<BR>
<BR>
- --part1_a5.7fc9534.268f6482_boundary<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
This is the info page sent to the Sworld Worlds player, anyone interested in <BR>
joining please email me. Available factions: Imperial, Zhodani, Darrian, <BR>
Darrian Aslan, and of course -- Sword Worlders. All character types <BR>
available, but military ones preferred. <BR>
<BR>
Anticipated first action: The Seige of Anselhome. <BR>
<BR>
- --part1_a5.7fc9534.268f6482_boundary<BR>
Content-Type: message/rfc822<BR>
Content-Disposition: inline<BR>
<BR>
Return-path: <Olegamer@aol.com><BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Full-name: Olegamer<BR>
Message-ID: <c5.7081ca4.268f5d1a@aol.com><BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:41:30 EDT<BR>
Subject: Sword Worlds Info-2<BR>
To: RickBurk@aol.com<BR>
MIME-Version: 1.0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 103<BR>
<BR>
Hi, this is more information for you to ponder over. This material is just <BR>
setting the stage for the actual play. Your input is very much wanted concept <BR>
wise after you read my initial assessment based on published material. Based <BR>
on our actual likes, I anticipate this actually focusing more on tactical <BR>
play once the factions are more fully fleshed out. I am doing this to <BR>
establish the parameters of the battlefield more than anything else. Falling <BR>
back on my actual army training, this is what is called in the business as <BR>
"battlefield analysis." <BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller Play by Email Campaign: The Entropic Cluster War<BR>
<BR>
Sword Worlds Battle Plan<BR>
<BR>
Situation: Entropic Worlds - Anselhome, Entrope, Torment, and Winston<BR>
<BR>
Objective: The Sword Worlds Coalition Army and Navy will proceed to the <BR>
Entropic Worlds Cluster and secure right of passage for Sword Worlds' <BR>
merchant and naval starships to Zhodani space. This will be accomplished by <BR>
the securing or establishment of starports located on the worlds of <BR>
Anselhome, Torment, and Winston. The high population hub-world of Entrope <BR>
will be isolated and placed under interdiction by our navy. Maximum effort by <BR>
the army is to be placed in to the liberation of Winston to enable future <BR>
success in the Entropic Cluster and the eventual liberation of Entrope from <BR>
Darrian oppression. Winston is the key to success in this campaign. For the <BR>
intervention of Darrian reinforcements and the isolation of Entrope, Winston <BR>
must be taken and held.<BR>
<BR>
Strategic Objectives: At the commencement of hostilities Sword Worlds <BR>
Coalition forces will seize the starport in the Anselhome system, then move <BR>
systematically through Torment system to the starport in the Winston system. <BR>
From the Anselhome system naval raids will be conducted into the Entrope <BR>
system to delay reinforcement of the Winston system. Naval forces in the <BR>
Winston system will prepare from reinforcement directly from the Darrian <BR>
systems. Army forces will entrench themselves on the worlds of Anselhome, <BR>
Torment, and Winston and prepare for extended occupation of said garrisons. <BR>
If the Imperium or the Zhodani intervene all Coalition forces will withdraw <BR>
to Anselhome and wait for a diplomatic solution to be reached. <BR>
<BR>
Enemy: The primary opposition to the completion of this operation is the <BR>
Darrian Confederation. Currently the Darrians hold approximately a dozen <BR>
worlds, including the four worlds of the Entropic Cluster. The Cluster is of <BR>
strategic importance to the Sword Worlds in that it stretches across the <BR>
access corridor to the Zhodani Consulate. Control of the Cluster means <BR>
control of all shipping transiting through it. Using a historical model from <BR>
our Terran past, the Entropic Worlds are a modern day Rock of Gibraltar <BR>
controlling access between the Mediterranean Sea and Atlantic Ocean. <BR>
<BR>
The Darrians have had ten standard years to entrench themselves on the <BR>
Entropic Worlds. The main defense effort is focused on the most heavily <BR>
populated of the Entropic Worlds, Entrope itself. Current intelligence <BR>
indicates that the Darrians maintain 1 very high tech regiment on Entrope <BR>
supported by the large Entrope Defense Force (EDF). The Darrian Army force is <BR>
stationed on the planetary starport; the EDF is regionally deployed in <BR>
division sized garrisons. Presently at Entrope it is believed that the <BR>
Darrians have permanently stationed a battle squadron. Our intelligence <BR>
indicates that the squadron deploys ships to the other three worlds of the <BR>
cluster routinely. The squadron maintains tight control of the prime world's <BR>
orbital space as well as patrols the planetary system. Current estimates <BR>
place one 20,000 displacement ton (dton) light battleship with support from <BR>
three moderate tonnage cruisers as the main elements of the garrison <BR>
squadron. Other tactical elements of this ground and space command are <BR>
deployed to the other 3 Entropic Worlds. The Entrope garrison would serve as <BR>
the primary source of replacements and logistics from operations in the other <BR>
three systems of the Cluster. <BR>
<BR>
There is little support for the Sword World cause on the main world of <BR>
Entrope. A historical model taken from Old Earth would be the political <BR>
situation in South Africa following the removal of the white minority from <BR>
power and the larger black majority took office. Many Sword World citizens <BR>
either stayed voluntarily or were caught by the defeat of the Sword Worlds <BR>
forces in the system; there remains a small-oppressed Sword Worlds minority <BR>
on Entrope. Entrope's civilian population (11.2 billion) is squarely in the <BR>
Darrian camp politically at this point. Anselhome (population 602,000) is <BR>
strategic because it is within 2 parsecs (approximately 6 light years) of <BR>
Winston, and is the first of the Cluster worlds encountered coming from the <BR>
Sword Worlds. Being the nearest to the Sword Worlds, it is the expected <BR>
avenue of approach for Confederation forces invading the Cluster. Torment <BR>
(population 800) is now populated by a Darrian penal colony. Winston is a <BR>
critical world in the battle strategy for control of the Cluster. Winston <BR>
(population 528,000) would support the return of the Sword Worlds to the <BR>
Cluster for economic reasons. <BR>
<BR>
Entrope (and so the EDF) enjoys a TL10 culture. The EDF has had a decade to <BR>
organize and train so can be expected to be a formidable foe in combat. They <BR>
are primarily trained to fight in a terrestrial environment with a very thin <BR>
or trace atmosphere in sealed Combat Environment Suits or tactical vehicles <BR>
(read: mechanized and armored conventional forces). They are normally <BR>
deployed in light gravity environments so they favor laser weaponry over <BR>
standard firearms. The air wing of the army is all but non-existent providing <BR>
transport but not close combat support; close orbit support is the <BR>
responsibility of the Darrian Navy. The armored ground force makes up for the <BR>
lack of air power with their excellent combat vehicle inventory. Their ground <BR>
combat vehicles make extensive use of high-energy weapons in the point <BR>
defense role. They lack an effective artillery support arm in their <BR>
formations relying mostly on direct fire and high speed maneuvering. They <BR>
make extensive use of electronic warfare capabilities for battlefield <BR>
surveillance and tactical intelligence collection. Darrian Confederation <BR>
ground forces that may be encountered (naval infantry) are highly automated, <BR>
using very advanced battledress and energy weapons (plasma guns). (Think <BR>
"short" mechs when planning for deployment and use of battledress equipped <BR>
units - or Heinlein's Starship Troopers as used in the novel.) Darrian <BR>
marines are deployed directly from their battle squadron and are not expected <BR>
to be found garrisoned on the surface of any of the worlds with the exception <BR>
of the Entrope starport. Darrian marines are considered jump troops and can <BR>
deploy individually from orbit.    <BR>
<BR>
Friendly Forces: The Sword Worlds also has had 10 standard years to prepare <BR>
for this military operation. Our greatest advantage is our flexibility and <BR>
adaptability. Although we have the blessings and support of the entire Sword <BR>
Worlds Confederation, the primary participants in this campaign are the Gram, <BR>
Hrunting, Joyeuse, and Narsil systems. Gram and Narsil are providing the <BR>
resources and manpower while Hrunting and Joyeuse provide strategic location <BR>
control and tactical support. The military organization of Gram is being used <BR>
as the frame for this coalition to form around. Other systems are <BR>
participating to lessor degrees due to lack of resources or pressing domestic <BR>
issues. <BR>
<BR>
The Army of Gram has organized a High Command located in a well-fortified and <BR>
supplied moon of Joyeuse Prime. The Coalition Navy is divided between two <BR>
commands for this campaign. The Gram Fleet will conduct the actual offensive <BR>
operations while the Narsil Fleet will hold in defense of the Sword Worlds <BR>
themselves from a Darrian flank attack. The Gram Fleet will command 2/3 of <BR>
the total naval force and 3/4 of the ground force in its offensive operation. <BR>
<BR>
Based on population and technology, the upward limit of military strength for <BR>
the combating systems is estimated at the following: <BR>
<BR>
System      Population (code)   TL      Corps           Ships (all classes)*    <BR>
    <BR>
Anselhome   600,000 (5)         8       1               0<BR>
Entrope     11 billion (A)      10      1,200           1,200<BR>
Torment 800 (2)             5       0               0   <BR>
Winston 528,000 (5)         6       1               0<BR>
Gram        6.8 billion (9)     9       150             100<BR>
Narsil      27 billion  (A)     9       1,500           1,000<BR>
Joyeuse 41 million (7)      9       1.5             1<BR>
Hrunting    32 million (7)      9       1.5             1<BR>
<BR>
* Includes starships and spaceships. This figure reflects the size elements <BR>
the planet can support, not necessarily actually have deployed at the <BR>
beginning of this campaign.  <BR>
<BR>
(Source documents: GURPS Traveller: Alien Race 2 (Aslan), GURPS Traveller: <BR>
Behind the Claw (Spinward Marches Sourcebook), and the GDW Rebellion <BR>
Sourcebook.) <BR>
<BR>
Based on the upward limit assessment, the conflict will be a large-scale <BR>
endeavor with the ultimate objective of either eliminating or reducing to the <BR>
Entrope capability to affect space traffic to a manageable of acceptability. <BR>
<BR>
Presently, the Sword World Coalition Fleet has the potential to only <BR>
transport one assault corps at a time into the theater of operations. For the <BR>
last five years the armies of Narsil and Gram have been preparing for this <BR>
operation. The assault squadron would then have to fall back into Sword World <BR>
space to be resupplied. Turn around time would be minimum of between one to <BR>
two months. It takes a minimum of a full standard year to move troops from <BR>
the Narsil system to the staging bases in the Hrunting system at our current <BR>
technology level. <BR>
<BR>
[Referee Note: I envision the Sword Worlds to avoid Imperial intervention <BR>
developing a merchant marine using transports and freighters capable of <BR>
planetary landings like our C-5's and C-130's tactical aircraft. The Star <BR>
Wars-like Star Destroyer as a troop transport would simply be beyond them. <BR>
The Roger Young-class transports from the movie "Starship Troopers" are the <BR>
norm for the Traveller universe for the assault squadron. Considering the <BR>
historical and political situation of this campaign -- I do not see the Sword <BR>
Worlds being able to field that type of transport without risking Imperial <BR>
intervention. The Traveller stables of the freetraders-class (C-130), and the <BR>
Subsidized-Merchant (C-5) are what I envision the bulk of the transport <BR>
assets for the Coalition. The invasion of an Entropic world would take on the <BR>
appearance of the entry to Viet Nam or Saudi Arabia more than the WWII <BR>
invasions of Europe at Normandy or Anzio.  A slow steady stream of starships <BR>
(aircraft) delivering cargoes inland versus the shoreline (sudden close <BR>
orbit) invasion.] <BR>
<BR>
Our troops are the finest in space. The environmental characteristics that <BR>
Gram and Narsil soldiers are trained to operate in are very different from <BR>
those of the EDF. Narsil is a medium size world while Gram is larger so our <BR>
troops are use to heavier surface gravity. In addition, our atmospheres are <BR>
denser but tainted by industrial pollutants so although our troops are used <BR>
to protective clothing they are not as accustomed to sealed armors or suits <BR>
to the same level as the Entropic troops. Because of this lack of need of <BR>
extensive environmental equipment, our formations include formidable air, <BR>
sea, and light infantry units. Because of our environmental conditions, our <BR>
artillery arm is very well developed making use of conventional munitions as <BR>
well as missile and drone technologies. Our greatest strength is in our <BR>
ability to wage unconventional war with elite infantry formations - <BR>
Blitzkrieg is our domain.     <BR>
<BR>
Our individual troops are trained to use conventional firearms and munitions <BR>
versus laser Darrian technology. Our troops are equipped with gauss weaponry <BR>
and advanced combat rifles as their main individual weapons. Our primary <BR>
infantry support weapons heavy barreled assault weapons with specialize <BR>
ammunitions and grenade launchers.  The multiple rocket launcher is the <BR>
artillery weapon most in use. Our armor elements also use plasma weaponry <BR>
supplemented by gauss weapons. Light vehicles use laser turrets for their <BR>
primary weapon. We do not use battledress for conventional infantry forces in <BR>
tactical employment. We use air forces using grav vehicle technology for <BR>
direct combat roles involving battledress equipped forces (Imperial or <BR>
Darrian). <BR>
<BR>
Source document: GURPS Traveller: Star Mercs.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
- --part1_a5.7fc9534.268f6482_boundary--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:18:37 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
>On 29 Jun 00, at 12:05, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>>Pedro Lopez writes:<BR>
>>>According to the rules in TNE, there is no difference when you shoot at =<BR>
>>>a target thats 2 or 30 meters away from you as long its within close =<BR>
>>>range.<BR>
>>>Any suggestions for point blank rules?<BR>
>>CT?<BR>
>That'd be the rules set that says that you're an idiot to use anything <BR>
>but a broadsword at close or short range?<BR>
<BR>
	????<BR>
<BR>
	I figure that CT exagerates the effectiveness of blade weapons, and<BR>
	that's fine with me.  However, in CT the broadsword is certainly<BR>
	not the best weapon to use at Short range and it is nowhere near<BR>
	the best at Close.  For example, some rolls to hit:<BR>
<BR>
			Close			Short			damage<BR>
			None	Cloth	Battle	None	Cloth	Battle<BR>
	Broadsword	11+	16+	20+	0+	5+	9+	4D<BR>
	Gauss Rifle	5+	9+	12+	0+	4+	7+	4D<BR>
	Laser Rifle	9+	10+	18+	3+	4+	12+	5D<BR>
<BR>
	Plus gauss weapons can hit the target more than once (and can attack<BR>
	adjascent targets), and both gauss and laser weapons can engage the<BR>
	target before they get to sword range, and there is no End limit for<BR>
	the latter weapons.  That being said, a Conan type with a broadsword<BR>
	might give the CT PCs some trouble in tight quarters.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:20:33 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella writes:<BR>
>>Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
>>the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
>>Anyone out there know?<BR>
>They are monotremes, but monotremes /are/ mammals. Just the egg-laying type.<BR>
>IIRC echidnas and just one or two other critters are monotremes. Echidnas<BR>
>are awful cute, sort of like hedgehogs.<BR>
<BR>
	I am only aware of the two surviving species of monotremes (duckbill<BR>
	platypus and spiney echidna).  Do you know of any others?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:26:26<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
At 02:14 AM 7/1/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once, a<BR>
>long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a man<BR>
>from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I recall<BR>
>correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It would seem<BR>
>by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm not prepared<BR>
>to believe this.<BR>
<BR>
Um, no.  Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a<BR>
white man.  Nobody blocked her access to a seat.  The Montgomery bus<BR>
boycott which followed demonstrated how the majority of the population<BR>
felt, as many whites joined in and refused to ride the bus.<BR>
<BR>
Good page on the boycott here:<BR>
<BR>
http://campus.northpark.edu/history//WebChron/USA/MontBus.html<BR>
<BR>
The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a perfect civil action. All it did was stop<BR>
using a public facility to protest the standards on that facility.  This<BR>
action coast the city thousands of dollars in lost fares, as well as being<BR>
a public relations disaster.  The continuing publicity also allowed Ms.<BR>
Parks' case to stay alive all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled the<BR>
Montgomery law unconstitutional.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:31:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
At 02:28 AM 7/1/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
><BR>
>You'd think it'd be straight forward... just get a photo of a *real* general<BR>
>in uniform, and copy the placing and types of the insignia faithfully...<BR>
<BR>
You'd be amazed.  One of my favorites was this direct to video action thing<BR>
I saw at a con.  The troops were supposed to be an elite Airborne unit, but<BR>
not *one* of them was wering jump wings, even on their class A uniforms!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:35:01<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
At 01:46 AM 7/1/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Still, there's always eBay...<BR>
<BR>
You want eBay? We'll take you there.  To their building.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:47:29 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
>>the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
>Monotremes *are* mammals. At least until they revise things again.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Class: Mammalia<BR>
>Subclass: Prototheria<BR>
>Order: Monotremata<BR>
>Note that "Primates" (Primata) is an order. <BR>
>So yes, Platypi are mammals (officially).<BR>
<BR>
	No doubt Leonard knows this, but just to be clear: Primates is<BR>
	not an order within subclass Prototheria.  There are three<BR>
	recognized subclasses within class Mammalia: Prototheria (the<BR>
	monotremes), Metatheria (the marsupials), and Eutheria (the<BR>
	placental mammals).  Almost all mammals outside of Australia<BR>
	and New Zealand are in the latter subclass, including the<BR>
	following orders:<BR>
		Insectivora (shrews, moles, hedgehogs, etc.)<BR>
		Edentata (anteaters, sloths, armadillos, etc.)<BR>
		Rodentia (rats, mice, squirrels, etc.)<BR>
		Artiodactyla (cattle, deer, camels, hippos, etc.)<BR>
		Perissodactyla (horses, rhinos, etc.)<BR>
		Proboscidia (elephants)<BR>
		Lagomorpha (rabbits and hares)<BR>
		Sirenia (manatees, dugongs, and sea cows)<BR>
		Carnivora (cats, dogs, bears, weasels, seals, etc.)<BR>
		Cetatea (whales, dolphins, and porpoises)<BR>
		Chiroptera (bats)<BR>
		Primates (lemurs, monkeys, and apes)<BR>
	It is interesting to note that some animal designs have been<BR>
	arrived at independently.  For example, rabbits are not rodents,<BR>
	and evolved the rodent-like teeth on their own.  This suggests<BR>
	that at least some animals on other worlds may be very similar<BR>
	to Terran ones.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:02:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
Well, hey - I'd expect that<BR>
<BR>
The muppits are _cool_<BR>
<BR>
And Kermit is a perfectionist ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
Berry<BR>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 6:14 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 11:29 AM 6/30/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Conversely, I've seen quite a few scenes where 'modern' weapons are fired<BR>
an<BR>
>there is no brass.  Some companies have taken to using full-auto prop guns<BR>
>that are powered by propane, and thus require not complicated federal tax<BR>
>stamps, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Then there is _The Matrix_, where not only is there brass, but the sounds<BR>
of brass and links falling is distinct and different.  Great weapons work<BR>
in that film.<BR>
<BR>
Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another Medical Reaction<BR>
today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the minor characters is a US<BR>
Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the insignia in the right<BR>
place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the Americal Division combat<BR>
patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to be in the correct<BR>
order, and the appropriate ones for a combat infantryman!<BR>
<BR>
The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:24:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 02:14 AM 7/1/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once,<BR>
a long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a<BR>
man from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I<BR>
recall correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It<BR>
would seem by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm<BR>
not prepared to believe this.<BR>
>><BR>
>Um, no.  Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a<BR>
white man.  Nobody blocked her access to a seat.  The Montgomery bus boycott<BR>
which followed demonstrated how the majority of the population felt, as many<BR>
whites joined in and refused to ride the bus.<BR>
><BR>
>Good page on the boycott here:<BR>
><BR>
>http://campus.northpark.edu/history//WebChron/USA/MontBus.html<BR>
><BR>
>The Montgomery Bus Boycott was a perfect civil action. All it did was stop<BR>
using a public facility to protest the standards on that facility.  This<BR>
action coast the city thousands of dollars in lost fares, as well as being a<BR>
public relations disaster.  The continuing publicity also allowed Ms. Parks'<BR>
case to stay alive all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled the<BR>
Montgomery law unconstitutional.<BR>
><BR>
Thanks Doug.  I don't respond to blatant and obvious trolling, but it should<BR>
be obvious to anyone with half a brain that Rosa Parks did not blockade, did<BR>
not grab half-a-dozen or several hundred of her friends and unlawfully<BR>
detain whole groups of strangers whilst shouting insults and obscenities at<BR>
them, did not verbally assault anyone, did not throw paint at anyone, did<BR>
not do any of the myriad uncivil, unsympathetic, violent, coercive, and<BR>
otherwise disgusting behaviors in which the so-called "peaceful" protesters<BR>
of the past few years love to indulge.<BR>
<BR>
I've got a word for anyone who can't see the difference between Rosa Parks<BR>
and a crowd of people snarling insults and obscenities at people attempting<BR>
to enter their own hotel, a clothing store that sells furs, or a clinic at<BR>
which they have medical appointments:  BAKA.<BR>
<BR>
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with CIVIL disobedience properly<BR>
applied (I also agree with the Hagakure about starting fights you can't<BR>
win).  Uncivil disobedience is another matter entirely.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:59:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
You are right - the figures are truly bizzare per-capita ones (city<BR>
centre figures for the UK, national for the US and some others). They<BR>
make even less sense now I've looked at them.<BR>
<BR>
But as to the lawyers idea - I love it and may even introduce it into<BR>
my games. After all, the aristos are recognizable and the lawyers<BR>
_always_ try to dress up in every country. Perfect.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: 29 June 2000 01:03<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> on 6/28/00 4:14 AM, Mark Preston at mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > See there, Tod, that's your perception misleading you<BR>
> again. Official<BR>
> > figures for last year made a point of mentioning that the<BR>
> total number<BR>
> > of _suspected_ murders in the entire UK in 1998 (1999<BR>
> figures will not<BR>
> > come out till later this year) was less than the number<BR>
> of murders in<BR>
> > New York on a _single_ average day!. We could get a LOT<BR>
> more dangerous<BR>
> > over here before we even get close to the US.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
>  I Think the stat I heard was 'per capita', and on<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> I am reminded The King Frederick Willhelm, Frederick the<BR>
> Great's father,<BR>
> enacted a law that required that lawyers be required to<BR>
> wear orange, so that<BR>
> they might be identified in public.<BR>
><BR>
> How does the 3I view lawyers on the Imperial side?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:36:58 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
One good thing has come of this thread.  Now that I've heard of jury<BR>
nullification, there's no chance I'll ever have to serve on a jury in my<BR>
life.  I'll just threaten to say the words and be kicked out of there so<BR>
fast...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:44:41 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Risk perception and voting<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 6/30/00 2:03:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  Anyone who has a problem with the law should bring it to the<BR>
>  attention of a legislator.  I hope the author of the post you were<BR>
>  replying to has already done that.<BR>
<BR>
As one person who I worked with said 'Rock the Vote'............<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:45:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> LOL!  A lot of those people are thugs, plain and simple.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Also the thing that bugs me about the whole WTO protest is we NEED an<BR>
international rule of law with respect to trade.  The fact that we don't<BR>
like their decisions means we need to work to find a way to get our<BR>
objections heard legitimately, not disband the organization.  One doesn't<BR>
blockade the White House or call for the congress to be disbanded because it<BR>
passes a stupid law, there are ways to deal with these issues.<BR>
>><BR>
>Hi Kiri.  I've seen your posts, but didn't expect we'd cross paths, given<BR>
disparate interests.  Happy to see we agree.  What ever happened to<BR>
civility?<BR>
><BR>
I don't know, but I really believe in it.  It's amazing what a little<BR>
politeness will do.<BR>
<BR>
> When did 'the end justifies the means' become acceptable for everything?<BR>
><BR>
I think that happens when people decide that they are RIGHT, and so it<BR>
doesn't matter what other people believe, think, or wish to do.  Even if I<BR>
agree with their basic ideas, people who are absolutely convinced that they<BR>
are on the side of the angels scare me.  I think it's necessary to be able<BR>
to admit that the other side is human, has a few good points, has legitimate<BR>
wishes and concerns, and that you *might* be wrong on a few points in order<BR>
to get along in society.  We are all human and fallible.  If any Being<BR>
exists Who has ALL the answers, Sie's not telling us about it.<BR>
<BR>
I tend to live my daily life as though people are more important than ideas.<BR>
Ideas come from people and live in the ether.  People live in the here and<BR>
now and bleed and hurt and die.  I'm much more likely to fight for a person<BR>
than I am for an idea.  I also don't believe there is any universal social<BR>
structure that works for everyone and I don't have any desire to make other<BR>
people live the way I do.  I don't understand why more people don't feel<BR>
this way.  It should be obvious, I think, after so many thousands of years,<BR>
that no single religion, family structure, or cultural framework works for<BR>
everyone, and the nice thing about the modern world is that it makes it<BR>
possible for people to move.<BR>
<BR>
>  Heck, I could take a police state over anarchy any day if the police were<BR>
polite about it. 8)<BR>
><BR>
I wouldn't go that far.  If only because the structure of a police state<BR>
tends to encourage the police not to be polite.  Politeness is behavior that<BR>
grows not just from training in civility, but also from the knowledge that<BR>
other people are unpredictable and dangerous and it's best not to upset them<BR>
unnecessarily.  If you know you have all the power, politeness tends to<BR>
crumble, at least once you get someone behind closed doors.  In police<BR>
states the police are polite in public but tend to commit crimes of their<BR>
own in private.  This is especially bad for attractive women, persons of<BR>
non-heterosexual orientation, and persons of mixed or non-majority racial<BR>
origin.  I happen to be all of those things.<BR>
<BR>
(Why people are surprised when they start riots and then get their heads<BR>
cracked, I really don't know.  Take a cop who is already under stress, being<BR>
forced to move "peaceful protesters" who've decided not to move under the<BR>
eyes of the media-- talk about a job no one with an ounce of sanity would<BR>
want-- and then call him names, call his family names, swear at him and<BR>
generally do everything you can think of to be provocative-- and then you're<BR>
surprised when he hits you?  Please.  You're stupid if you do this.  I don't<BR>
care how good someone's training is supposed to have been, why test their<BR>
limits like that?)<BR>
<BR>
I'm a libertarian, you may have guessed.  I think it's a good idea for<BR>
people to be able to say what they believe and feel-- POLITELY, and without<BR>
violence to others-- your right to scream and shout and spit ends about six<BR>
feet away from me, anywhere where I might legitimately take your screaming<BR>
as a physical threat and respond appropriately, basically-- and to be able<BR>
to move freely and go from places where they don't fit in to places where<BR>
they do.  As I said, the nice thing about the modern world is that you can.<BR>
I feel more comfortable in Japan than I do in America, and that's probably<BR>
where I'll end up before long.<BR>
<BR>
>"Good manners are never out of place, and politeness is welcomed in every<BR>
civilized place" --me<BR>
><BR>
I totally agree.  ^_^<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2703<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2704<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Leofric<BR>
Re: civility OT<BR>
Re: New York, New York<BR>
Re: Leofric<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Anarchists <BR>
RE: Capstick<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:16:03 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Leofric<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Joe Lachance [mailto:Lachance@nc.rr.com]<BR>
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 8:55 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Leofric<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Leofric of Mersey (which includes Manchester among other cities)  also<BR>
> happens to be the spouse of Lady Godiva of legend..if my <BR>
> memory serves me<BR>
> correctly.<BR>
> <BR>
> Joe<BR>
<BR>
Mercia, not Mersey.<BR>
<BR>
The Mersey is a River, Mercia is an ancient Kingdom of central England.<BR>
<BR>
And Lady Godiva was at Coventry, Manchester was little more than a<BR>
village at the time...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:15:16 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: civility OT<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/1/00 9:47:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
My gripe button just got hit.....strongly<BR>
<BR>
> >Hi Kiri.  I've seen your posts, but didn't expect we'd cross paths, given<BR>
>  disparate interests.  Happy to see we agree.  What ever happened to<BR>
>  civility?<BR>
<BR>
It went out the door with Respect.................<BR>
<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  I don't know, but I really believe in it.  It's amazing what a little<BR>
>  politeness will do.<BR>
<BR>
Yes it does. That's why I like the Phillipines better than the States right <BR>
now, even when they might be taking you for all your worth, they are still <BR>
respectful and polite. Something I don't see enough of nowadays when <BR>
everybody here is so busy demanding respect for themselves while ignoring <BR>
everybody else.<BR>
  <BR>
>  > When did 'the end justifies the means' become acceptable for everything?<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  I think that happens when people decide that they are RIGHT, and so it<BR>
>  doesn't matter what other people believe, think, or wish to do.  Even if I<BR>
>  agree with their basic ideas, people who are absolutely convinced that they<BR>
>  are on the side of the angels scare me.  I think it's necessary to be able<BR>
>  to admit that the other side is human, has a few good points, has <BR>
legitimate<BR>
>  wishes and concerns, and that you *might* be wrong on a few points in order<BR>
>  to get along in society.  We are all human and fallible.  If any Being<BR>
>  exists Who has ALL the answers, Sie's not telling us about it.<BR>
<BR>
People need to have respect for others and the laws of their country (same <BR>
thing in some countries). If you have a problem with the laws than work to <BR>
change them.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:24:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: New York, New York<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
><BR>
>on 6/30/00 5:43 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
>> And where else will you find a museum totally dedicated to _sex_?<BR>
>> (Really.  I'm not sure it's opened yet, but it really exists.)<BR>
><BR>
>Amsterdam.  The sex museum.<BR>
<BR>
Berlin, Germany also has a museum totally dedicated to sex.  Berlin <BR>
is a great place.  Bars/Clubs are open 23 1/2 hours a day.  They are <BR>
required to close for a 1/2 hour for cleaning.  Berlin has great <BR>
nightlife and I would say even better than New York.  Naturally, the <BR>
beer is better as well.  Berlin is also a lot cheaper than other <BR>
major cities (i.e., London, New York, Los Angeles, Paris).  In Berlin <BR>
I was staying in a studio apartment (eine zimmer wohnungen) for only  <BR>
450 DM ($300 USD) a month.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:34:51 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Leofric<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: Joe Lachance [mailto:Lachance@nc.rr.com]<BR>
> > Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 8:55 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Leofric<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Leofric of Mersey (which includes Manchester among other cities)  also<BR>
> > happens to be the spouse of Lady Godiva of legend..if my<BR>
> > memory serves me<BR>
> > correctly.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Joe<BR>
> <BR>
> Mercia, not Mersey.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Mersey is a River, Mercia is an ancient Kingdom of central England.<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  Merci beaucoup. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:32:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
>>In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once,<BR>
a<BR>
>>long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a<BR>
man<BR>
>>from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I recall<BR>
>>correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It would<BR>
seem<BR>
>>by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm not<BR>
prepared<BR>
>>to believe this.<BR>
><BR>
>Um, no.<BR>
<BR>
Um, no? So Rosa Parks didn't block a man from a place he was legally<BR>
entitled to? That's odd. That's how the story is usually told.<BR>
<BR>
>Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a<BR>
>white man.<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I know that. That was exactly my point. Rosa Parks blockaded a man and<BR>
stopped him from getting where he was allowed, by law, to be. Kiri was<BR>
saying there was something wrong with such an activity.<BR>
<BR>
>Nobody blocked her access to a seat.<BR>
<BR>
Did I say that? No. I did point out that she blocked access to a seat.<BR>
According to the criteria Kiri outlined Rosa Parks was a blatant, violent<BR>
criminal who should have been sued. I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:32:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks Doug.  I don't respond to blatant and obvious trolling, but it<BR>
should<BR>
>be obvious to anyone with half a brain that Rosa Parks did not blockade<BR>
<BR>
I guess that it's obvious to people with half a brain, but what about those<BR>
of us with a full brain? She did blockade. You just want to redefine what a<BR>
blockade is, for obvious reasons. In the post I'm responding to, your<BR>
indignant railing against folks who keep other folks from places which they<BR>
are legally entitled to be has shrivelled away. Now you focus purely on<BR>
yelling and insults, or a combination of blockading and insults. Your<BR>
original post contained a strong opposition to blockading as a tactic on its<BR>
own as well.<BR>
<BR>
Like it or not, Rosa Parks blockaded a man from a place he was legally<BR>
entitled to. Period. You can try to qualify your original statements now. By<BR>
the definitions you gave, Rosa Parks was a violent criminal. You were called<BR>
on that, and in response you gave me one word: "baka" (whatever that might<BR>
mean).<BR>
<BR>
Hats off to hypocrisy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:25:35 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:35:41<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>At 11:46 AM 6/30/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>>From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
>><BR>
>>>You must bear in mind that living in the UK, I have never<BR>
>>>even *seen* a realgun and can only go by what I read.<BR>
>><BR>
>>You ... must ... come ... to ... America ....<BR>
>>to ... Oregon .... Oregon ... Orregoon ...<BR>
>>to Mark Cook's home....<BR>
>>in Orrregooon......<BR>
><BR>
>Coommee be one of ussss.  I even got a cool orange hat.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes. Safety orange, wonderfull color, without the prominent display of<BR>
which even the least deer like of human beings is fair game during hunting<BR>
season.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 09:56:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >>>Then why does the Imperium, at least in CT & MT, include <BR>
> >>>the draft? The draft is slavery the only real difference<BR>
> >>>is who your owner is. <BR>
<BR>
> I'm not going to argue with you about whether you are right about your<BR>
> belief that a draft is equivalent to slavery,  All I will point out is<BR>
> that not everybody agrees with you, and that is is possible for someone<BR>
> to be against slavery and yet condone a draft. There's no reason to<BR>
> suppose that the elite of the 3rd Imperium are not among them.<BR>
<BR>
You are quite right when you say that not everyone agrees with <BR>
me on this one. However my interpretation, even though less <BR>
common, is (at least IMNSHO) a more literal reading of the letter <BR>
of the 'no slavery law'. I was suggesting that in doing so they <BR>
are redefining words to suit their own needs in a manner that I<BR>
find hypocritical.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover supporting a civilian draft, as I believe the Third <BR>
Imperium does, yet denying that you have slavery, is even more<BR>
of a hypocritical lie.<BR>
<BR>
> >Moreover I was not aware being a Merchant or an Other served<BR>
> >the needs of the state.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, I note that you didn't attempt to refute the post where I pointed out<BR>
> that it is ridiculous to suppose that the Other category had an actual<BR>
> legally established draft procedure and almost as ridiculous to suppose<BR>
> that the Merchants did. You merely ignored it.<BR>
<BR>
I ignored it because you were attempting to use what you consider<BR>
to be the _implausibility_ of a written rule that appears in all<BR>
three (CT, MT, and T4) canonical (i.e. not a variant, even a good<BR>
variant such as GURPS: Trav) Traveller rules sets featuring the<BR>
Third Imperium (not TNE).<BR>
<BR>
I find the notion of considering the 'illogic' of a rules as a<BR>
means of concluding that they are wrong to be so anathema to the<BR>
very notion of Traveller canon to be so far beyond the pale that<BR>
it is unlikely I would be able to redeem you from such heresy. <BR>
As such I made no attempt to redeem you as you are obviously beyond<BR>
hope of salvation unless you recant. (To put the argument in <BR>
theological terms). :)<BR>
<BR>
> ("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
> hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
<BR>
Say rather:<BR>
<BR>
"Eneri Generi the law states that you must be in school or<BR>
have a job. As you do not but are obviously such unworthy<BR>
scum that the military services would be better off without your<BR>
presence you are hereby ordered to work for the Imperial Starport <BR>
Custodial Service."<BR>
<BR>
This does not seem implausible to me.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say the presence of the draft suggests the presence of an<BR>
Imperial law requiring 18 year olds who are thinking of letting<BR>
themselves be played as PC's in the future must be in college or <BR>
have a job. If future PC's don't make successful arrangements prior <BR>
to the day of their 18th birthday to enter a college or find a <BR>
job (or military career) than they are subject to a Draft.<BR>
In the canonical Traveller rules this draft can subject you<BR>
to a 1d6 roll with the possible results being:<BR>
<BR>
Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Merchants, and Other [Trav Bk. p24]<BR>
Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Flyer, and Sailor [MT PM p 20]<BR>
or in Milieu 0<BR>
Army, Army, Navy, Marines, Merchants, Scout [T4 p 26]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >In the Imperium some early Emperor probably ruled that the Draft was not<BR>
> >Chattel Slavery and hence did not violate the Warrant of Restoration.<BR>
> <BR>
> It is even more propable that the draft of the character generation system<BR>
> does not represent an actual Imperial draft.<BR>
<BR>
By that logic the presence of the Scout career does not<BR>
prove the Imperium has Scouts and the presence of a material<BR>
benefits table does not mean that characters who muster out<BR>
ever have any money.<BR>
<BR>
The rules are a model that simulates the Third Imperium. The<BR>
character generation rules may not represent a statistically<BR>
valid model of the Third Imperium (which is not 1/36th Barons)<BR>
but they represent the potential PC's. Just as you should<BR>
accept that a PC is a Baron (or Baronet) if he is SOC 12 you should<BR>
accept that he was in fact subject to a real draft if he failed<BR>
of enlistment. This draft may not be universal but it does<BR>
exist by the letter of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> >Keep rolling 12's on the renlistment roll, and you are serving for life.<BR>
> <BR>
> ISTR present-day national armies where it is possible for personnel to be<BR>
> kept past their enlistment period in the event of a national emergency. I<BR>
> also STR that this is often part of the enlistment CONTRACT. Y'know, the<BR>
> agreement voluntarily entered into by the person being kept past the<BR>
> agreed enlistment period.<BR>
<BR>
If slavery is illegal than any contract into which a person<BR>
voluntarily enters into slavery is invalid on its face. Just<BR>
a contract to commit a murder is not a valid contract neither is<BR>
a contract to sell yourself into slavery. The law is in both<BR>
cases should be read as saying that people are not allowed to <BR>
enter into these sorts of contracts. <BR>
<BR>
In reality many governments that have laws against slavery,<BR>
including both the Third Imperium and the USA, never less allow<BR>
such contracts. This is merely an example of said governments<BR>
hypocritically defining slavery to exclude such contracts and then<BR>
successfully duping their subjects into believing said incorrect<BR>
definitions.<BR>
<BR>
> For instance, anyone volunteering to serve in the Danish army may be asked<BR>
> to extend their term of enlistment in order to train to be an NCO. Some of<BR>
> my friends were so required, and while some of them didn't like it, all of<BR>
> them would have a laughing fit if you were to suggest that this resembled<BR>
> slavery in any shape or form.<BR>
<BR>
Their delusional beliefs about the definition of slavery even if <BR>
said delusional beliefs are sanctioned by the nation state purporting <BR>
to control the area they inhabit (Denmark in this case) , and <BR>
subsequent laughing fit resulting from said delusional beliefs,<BR>
are not at issue. If you can not commit murder in Denmark than<BR>
you can not enter into a legal contract to commit one. If you can<BR>
not have slavery in Denmark than you _can_not_ enter into a legal<BR>
contract to become one. If Denmark's current regime believes<BR>
otherwise they are mistaken any of their subjects that they have <BR>
duped into believing similarly are also mistaken. They may well <BR>
have the de facto power to permit such egregious violations of <BR>
their own anti slavery laws but that does not make them correct.<BR>
<BR>
(I do not intend to insult your military friends when I say that<BR>
they are wrong.)<BR>
<BR>
> >Apparently not but we have no canon evidence (other than the<BR>
> >presence of the draft) to confirm this.<BR>
> <BR>
> And neither do we have any canon evidence that the draft in the character<BR>
> generation system represents an actual Imperial (or local) draft. And a<BR>
> good reason (the fact that the so-called draft can land you in a Free<BR>
> Trader or the Others) to suppose that it does not.<BR>
<BR>
Only in CT. If the Draft does not exist than why was the list <BR>
of services into which you could be drafted changed in MT and T4.<BR>
After all if no draft exists than why was the table changed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >>I think you're over-reading the character generation rules.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >How so? Character generation rules can be seen as applying<BR>
> >to NPC's as well as to PC's as in 1001 Characters and Citizens<BR>
> >of the Imperium two books that are full of NPC's created<BR>
> >using the character generation system.<BR>
> <BR>
> The CGS implies that there exists some people who correspond to the<BR>
> characters that can be generated using the system. It does imply that<BR>
> these characters are representative. If they were, more than 3% of the<BR>
> population would be Imperial nobles.<BR>
<BR>
No it only Implies that these people exist not that they are<BR>
a statistically valid representation of a cross section of the<BR>
Imperial population.<BR>
<BR>
If you wanted to make the argument that the CT Draft does not<BR>
force 1/6th of all NPC's who fail of enlistment to become<BR>
Merchants but only forces 1/6th of all PC's who fail of enlistment<BR>
to become Merchants you might well be correct.<BR>
<BR>
However just as PC's who are Barons have some NPC Baron <BR>
counterparts so must PC's who are drafted into the Merchant<BR>
Service must have some NPC counterparts. I am not arguing that<BR>
the 1d6 roll produces a statistically valid cross section I am<BR>
merely arguing that it does not permit results that would not<BR>
be possible for NPC's as well.<BR>
<BR>
> Others do not represent a service like the four Imperial<BR>
> forces, nor do the Merchants.<BR>
<BR>
They are referred to as a service in the CT quote below<BR>
"Each of the six _services_ has a draft number". hence they<BR>
must be services. They may not be military services but they<BR>
are services. Nor are they unitary services but this is also<BR>
irrelevant. Just as a CT Army character could have been in a <BR>
number of different Armies so could a CT Merchant or Other have <BR>
been employed by a number of different companies.<BR>
<BR>
> >"Should an attempt at enlistment fail, the character must<BR>
> >submit to the draft. Each of the six services has a draft<BR>
> >number; the draftee rolls one die and enters the service<BR>
> >with that draft number." [The Traveller Book p 18] That<BR>
> >sure sounds like the Imperium is drafting citizens into<BR>
> >petty criminal organizations and merchant fleets.<BR>
> <BR>
> It sure sounds like it. And since this is patently ridiculous, <BR>
<BR>
No it is not patently ridiculous.<BR>
<BR>
_Historically_ many oppressive governments have forced their<BR>
subjects to work in various civilian careers against their will.<BR>
If you were a Medieval peasant than (some of the time in most <BR>
countries) you had to work for your lord a certain number of days <BR>
per week for example. This merely reveals the repression inherent<BR>
in these systems it does not establish that they did not exist.<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest that you are reading too many 20th century<BR>
sensibilities into things. The fact that drafting people into<BR>
civilian occupations is illogical and unjust and repressive can <BR>
not be used as evidence that it does not occur.<BR>
<BR>
> we can<BR>
> conclude that the draft in the CGS does not represent a true draft in<BR>
> at least two of the six cases. It is therefore quite reasonable to<BR>
> assume that it does not necessarily represent a true draft in the four<BR>
> other cases either.<BR>
<BR>
No we can not make said conclusion. Obvious your mileage<BR>
(kilometerage?) does vary from mine.<BR>
<BR>
> >>In the military services, it is<BR>
> >>entirely possible that you won't be permitted to leave when<BR>
> >>you want; that's part of military service.  In any other<BR>
> >>services, mandatory re-enlistment is to be interpreted in<BR>
> >>some way that makes sense -- militarization of a merchant<BR>
> >>fleet during wartime, for example.  <BR>
> > <BR>
> >It does not matter _why_ the charecter is not permitted to<BR>
> >quit his job. The point I am trying to make is that when<BR>
> >_civilians_ are regularly (1/36th of the time) forbidden to<BR>
> >quit their jobs every four years in a society that purportedly<BR>
> >does not allow slavery then something is wrong. <BR>
<BR>
> Only if you believe that enforcing a contract is slavery.<BR>
<BR>
Only if you believe that people can enter legal contracts to<BR>
commit illegal acts. If slavery is illegal than you can't sell<BR>
yourself as a slave. <BR>
<BR>
Quitting your job when they don't want you to (12 on the<BR>
renlistment roll) might then result in having to pay a fine<BR>
(which might be represented in CT terms as no material benefits<BR>
roll for the last term for instance) but it should not result<BR>
in mandatory renlistment.<BR>
<BR>
> >[1] To the extent that the courts disagree with me they are wrong.<BR>
<BR>
> That may be, but if a large number of people disagree with you (as I<BR>
> believe is the case), then it is perfectly reasonable to postulate a<BR>
> fictive society (in casu, the 3rd Imperium) where most of the population<BR>
> also disagree with you.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yes, most definitely. I am simply pointing out what the<BR>
canonical presence of the draft in an Imperium which canonically<BR>
prohibits slavery says about the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:57:34 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I've got a word for anyone who can't see the difference between Rosa Parks<BR>
> and a crowd of people snarling insults and obscenities at people attempting<BR>
> to enter their own hotel, a clothing store that sells furs, or a clinic at<BR>
> which they have medical appointments:  BAKA.<BR>
<BR>
A fine word, that.  My first encounter with the word "baka" was from<BR>
World War II accounts, in which American personnel used it as a nickname<BR>
for the Japanese MXY-7 "Okha" ("Cherry Blossom") air-launched anti-ship<BR>
missile.<BR>
<BR>
Note that this missile was equipped with a guidance system far more<BR>
advanced than even current anti-ship missiles.<BR>
<BR>
See:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap22.htm<BR>
<BR>
for further details.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:08:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Kiri wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Thanks Doug.  I don't respond to blatant and obvious trolling, but it<BR>
should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that Rosa Parks did not<BR>
blockade<BR>
><BR>
>I guess that it's obvious to people with half a brain, but what about those<BR>
of us with a full brain? She did blockade. You just want to redefine what a<BR>
blockade is, for obvious reasons.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You're splitting hairs and I'm not playing, Chris.  ONE person is not a<BR>
blockade.  A blockade is an organized activity.<BR>
<BR>
BLOCKADE, n.  1.  The closing off of a city, coast, harbor, or other area by<BR>
hostile ships or forces.  2. The forces employed to close such an area.<BR>
<BR>
This is from the American Heritage Dictionary.  One person cannot blockade<BR>
one bus seat.  Several people could blockade an entire bus, but that's not<BR>
what happened.  You're trying to make me look bad by saying I called little<BR>
old Rosa Parks, who is a cultural icon, a violent criminal, and don't think<BR>
I don't know it.  I've had this kind of argument thrown at me before.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not playing that game with you.  Sorry.   Reductio ad absurdum is not my<BR>
cup of tea.  I think this sort of argument is idiotic and mean-spirited,<BR>
hence the term "baka".  You can think of much better ways to discuss this if<BR>
you really want to, Chris-- I know that you are brighter than this.<BR>
<BR>
But you're not going to make me support large, nasty crowds who use force of<BR>
numbers to get their way by engaging in behavior that is normally considered<BR>
"assault" no matter what you say.  I am not interested in arguing the finer<BR>
points of this with you.  You can call me a hypocrite all you want.<BR>
<BR>
There is a difference between Rosa Parks and Operation Rescue/the WTO<BR>
protesters/the ALF/the tree-spikers.  I may not have used what you consider<BR>
the proper words to express that difference, but that doesn't mean that<BR>
difference doesn't exist.  And you know that.  I'm not arguing with you just<BR>
for the sake of arguing.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 10:09:32 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once, a<BR>
> >long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a man<BR>
> >from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I recall<BR>
> >correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It would seem<BR>
> >by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm not prepared<BR>
> >to believe this.<BR>
<BR>
> Um, no.  Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a<BR>
> white man.  Nobody blocked her access to a seat.  <BR>
<BR>
Under the law the white man who wanted her seat had the legal<BR>
right to it. When she refused to give it up for him she was<BR>
blocking him from a place (the seat) that he had a legal<BR>
right to occupy. By blocking his access to the seat with her<BR>
body (by not moving) she was blockading the seat. The white <BR>
man may well have been a jerk, possibly a racist jerk, but<BR>
under the then law he had every legal right to access that<BR>
seat. Ms Parks blockaded him from sitting in it.<BR>
<BR>
Said law was, of course, _wrong_ but by refusing to give up the<BR>
seat to him she was effectively blockading that seat. When she<BR>
refused the instructions of the bus driver (who had the legal<BR>
write to instruct her to move) she was effectively 'failing to<BR>
disperse when lawfully ordered to do so'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:14:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Capstick<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I'm sorry to say I don't get this part.<BR>
><BR>
>The late Peter Hathaway Capstick.<BR>
<BR>
Ach! Okay. Since I was unfamiliar with "Capstick", when I read the word I<BR>
didn't even realize that it was a personal name (and for some reason I<BR>
thought of "Chap Stick"). :)<BR>
<BR>
>A former stock broker turned professional<BR>
>white hunter.  He wrote for various gun and sport magazines and published a<BR>
>dozen books.  Highly recommended reading if you like adventure or have the<BR>
>vaguest interest in hunting. Look for the "Death in the ..." series.  Death<BR>
>in the long grass, death in the silent places.  There are about a zillion<BR>
>(highly technical term) safari adventures in there, and some great NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
Cool. I will definitely keep this in mind during my next trip to the<BR>
library.<BR>
<BR>
>One of our local traveller 'characters', Peter Corbett Bell, is directly<BR>
>stolen from Capstick and several historical figures he rights about.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm prepping a mini-adventure right now that I'll be posting on our<BR>
website,<BR>
>and/or posting here: "The Sophont eaters of Tsaro".<BR>
<BR>
A former TNE campaign I ran started with the player characters visiting a<BR>
former hunting world. The most dangerous animals from a dozen planets were<BR>
imported to this world. While it was around, the Imperium had secured a<BR>
small parcel of land and built a prison deep in the wilderness. If anyone<BR>
escaped, they'd almost certainly be devoured.<BR>
<BR>
By the time of the Reformation Coalition, it had become a mining camp in<BR>
which the descendants of the prisoners were used as slave labor to mine<BR>
radioactive materials from the mountains to sell to free traders. The Guild<BR>
kept them supplied with new slaves. One of the recently imported slaves was<BR>
a player character, who was also an anti-Oriflammen terrorist.<BR>
<BR>
That was a fun series of sessions. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:34:59 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Actually Kiri, you haven't met my friend Mike.  At 500+ pounds, one person<BR>
CAN be a Blockade!  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 2:08 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >Kiri wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>Thanks Doug.  I don't respond to blatant and obvious trolling, but it<BR>
> should be obvious to anyone with half a brain that Rosa Parks did not<BR>
> blockade<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I guess that it's obvious to people with half a brain, but what about<BR>
those<BR>
> of us with a full brain? She did blockade. You just want to redefine what<BR>
a<BR>
> blockade is, for obvious reasons.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> You're splitting hairs and I'm not playing, Chris.  ONE person is not a<BR>
> blockade.  A blockade is an organized activity.<BR>
><BR>
> BLOCKADE, n.  1.  The closing off of a city, coast, harbor, or other area<BR>
by<BR>
> hostile ships or forces.  2. The forces employed to close such an area.<BR>
><BR>
> This is from the American Heritage Dictionary.  One person cannot blockade<BR>
> one bus seat.  Several people could blockade an entire bus, but that's not<BR>
> what happened.  You're trying to make me look bad by saying I called<BR>
little<BR>
> old Rosa Parks, who is a cultural icon, a violent criminal, and don't<BR>
think<BR>
> I don't know it.  I've had this kind of argument thrown at me before.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not playing that game with you.  Sorry.   Reductio ad absurdum is not<BR>
my<BR>
> cup of tea.  I think this sort of argument is idiotic and mean-spirited,<BR>
> hence the term "baka".  You can think of much better ways to discuss this<BR>
if<BR>
> you really want to, Chris-- I know that you are brighter than this.<BR>
><BR>
> But you're not going to make me support large, nasty crowds who use force<BR>
of<BR>
> numbers to get their way by engaging in behavior that is normally<BR>
considered<BR>
> "assault" no matter what you say.  I am not interested in arguing the<BR>
finer<BR>
> points of this with you.  You can call me a hypocrite all you want.<BR>
><BR>
> There is a difference between Rosa Parks and Operation Rescue/the WTO<BR>
> protesters/the ALF/the tree-spikers.  I may not have used what you<BR>
consider<BR>
> the proper words to express that difference, but that doesn't mean that<BR>
> difference doesn't exist.  And you know that.  I'm not arguing with you<BR>
just<BR>
> for the sake of arguing.<BR>
><BR>
> Kiri<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2704<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2705</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 1 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2705<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2685<BR>
The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: rats<BR>
Re: monotremes & venomous mammals<BR>
request: nuclear quickmatch drive<BR>
A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 11:39:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2685<BR>
<BR>
on 6/29/00 1:09 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I am stumped.  I am looking to identify an unusual SMG I saw at the ATF<BR>
>> reference collection.  I believe it to be French, as it shared some<BR>
>> similarity to the MAT 49.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> A photo is available. See:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/fold_smg.gif<BR>
>> <BR>
>> for a photo.<BR>
><BR>
>Here's a better photo:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.guntech.com/media/weird_folding_smg.jpg<BR>
<BR>
Tod, I don't recall.  Did anyone every identify this SMG for you?  If<BR>
not, I can.<BR>
<BR>
The submachine gun in your 2 pictures is a French "Pistolet Mitrailleur<BR>
Hotchkiss 'Type Universel' 1949" (M1949 Hotchkiss Universal SMG.) It was<BR>
introduced shortly after WW II broke out and saw limited adoption among<BR>
the French police and military.  It was out of production by the early<BR>
1950s.<BR>
<BR>
The best reference I've found to date is "Military Small Arms of the 20th<BR>
Century, 7th Ed." by Ian V. Hogg and John S. Weeks (pub.: Krause, 2000.)<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps.<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:40:23 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
<BR>
<tongue-in-cheek><BR>
<BR>
I always figured that the draft, as it applies to the Other career, was<BR>
sort of like the National Football League player draft.  In other words,<BR>
various shady enterprises select promising candidates for their<BR>
organizations.<BR>
<BR>
<<from "Court TV" coverage of this year's draft>><BR>
<BR>
"The New York Goodfellas used their first round pick to select Weatherby<BR>
George DuPree, a protection racketeer from Brooklyn."<BR>
<BR>
<cut to interview with coach John Giotti><BR>
<BR>
Giotti: "There's no question that DuPree will be an asset to our<BR>
organization.  His size, quickness, and knife skills will help fill the<BR>
hole left by the retirement of 'Kneecap' Ned McCormick.  Plus, his<BR>
non-descript face gives him the elusiveness needed in any lineup."<BR>
<BR>
</tongue-in-cheek><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:40:59 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
On 07/01/00 at 08:26 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 02:14 AM 7/1/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation.  I remember<BR>
>>reading once, long time ago, about this one person who formed a<BR>
>>blockade and stopped a (wo)man from a place (s)he was legally<BR>
>>entitled to be.  The year was 1955, if I recall correctly.  The<BR>
>>woman was Rosa Parks.  The place was a bus seat.  It would seem by<BR>
>>your criteria, there would be something wrong with that.  I'm not<BR>
>>prepared to believe this.<BR>
<BR>
>Um, no.  Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat<BR>
>to a white man.  Nobody blocked her access to a seat.  The<BR>
>Montgomery bus boycott which followed demonstrated how the majority<BR>
>of the population felt, as many whites joined in and refused to<BR>
>ride the bus.<BR>
<BR>
Chris may, or may not, have a valid point, but his example is off<BR>
target.  The Rosa Park's case is a perfect example of *civil*<BR>
disobediance.  She peacefully broke a law, was arrested, tried and<BR>
convicted, appealed and eventually had the conviction and law that<BR>
lead to the arrest overturned.  The Montgomery Bus Boycott, and many<BR>
early civil rights protests in the US were models of civil<BR>
disobediance and non-violent protest.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations and marches are one thing,<BR>
blockades, sit-ins, lockouts, and violence of any kind are another.<BR>
However, I think we need to drop this here and get back to<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 15:15:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You're splitting hairs and I'm not playing, Chris.  ONE person is not a<BR>
>blockade.  A blockade is an organized activity.<BR>
><BR>
>BLOCKADE, n.  1.  The closing off of a city, coast, harbor, or other area<BR>
by<BR>
>hostile ships or forces.  2. The forces employed to close such an area.<BR>
><BR>
>This is from the American Heritage Dictionary.  One person cannot blockade<BR>
>one bus seat.  Several people could blockade an entire bus, but that's not<BR>
>what happened.  You're trying to make me look bad by saying I called little<BR>
>old Rosa Parks, who is a cultural icon, a violent criminal, and don't think<BR>
>I don't know it.  I've had this kind of argument thrown at me before.<BR>
<BR>
One person is a provides a sufficient body of people to block access to a<BR>
seat. This fits well within the definition the American Heritage Dictionary<BR>
gives. As far as that last point goes, I'm not trying to make you look bad,<BR>
but to make the position you initially presented look like an<BR>
oversimplification and an overstatement.<BR>
<BR>
Upon reading and rereading your original post, I logically moved to the next<BR>
step. I decided to apply the criteria which you generated to other<BR>
well-known acts of resistance to what was perceived as injustice. Rosa Parks<BR>
naturally popped into my head.<BR>
<BR>
The point wasn't to make you look bad. Indeed, I knew after I composed my<BR>
message that it could, and probably would, make me look worse. After all, as<BR>
the feedback on the post has been negative, who could dare to compare nice<BR>
little Rosa Parks with those nasty folks who surround abortion clinics and<BR>
the closed door meetings of a non-democratic organization which has more<BR>
power than most, if not all, governments and which has the ability to<BR>
dictate policy.<BR>
<BR>
Despite that distinct possibility, I posted my message because I felt that<BR>
it was most likely to shock you into looking at what you wrote, and to shock<BR>
others who came away from your post who were nodding their heads thinking,<BR>
"Yeah, those nasty hypocritical protestors".<BR>
<BR>
I will freely admit that I wanted to make the position you held in the<BR>
original post look absurd by taking a scenario which probably everybody on<BR>
this list feel was morally justifiable, morally correct and an all around<BR>
good thing and fitting it within the model for "proper" protest which you<BR>
outlined in your post. The door was open wide enough for Rosa to walk in and<BR>
I pointed that out.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not playing that game with you.  Sorry.   Reductio ad absurdum is not<BR>
my<BR>
>cup of tea.  I think this sort of argument is idiotic and mean-spirited,<BR>
>hence the term "baka".  You can think of much better ways to discuss this<BR>
if<BR>
>you really want to, Chris-- I know that you are brighter than this.<BR>
<BR>
While I thank you for the compliment, I still have no knowledge of what<BR>
"baka" means, so I don't know how to take that.<BR>
<BR>
>But you're not going to make me support large, nasty crowds who use force<BR>
of<BR>
>numbers to get their way by engaging in behavior that is normally<BR>
considered<BR>
>"assault" no matter what you say.  I am not interested in arguing the finer<BR>
>points of this with you.  You can call me a hypocrite all you want.<BR>
<BR>
I don't care if you support large, nasty crowds. My intent was never to make<BR>
you support large, nasty crowds. My intent was to point out that your<BR>
position covered more than merely large, nasty crowds.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Over and out. I've wasted enough bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:20:16 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> From the news footage *I* saw the cops either weren't out of line or<BR>
> weren't much out of line. You see, the people doing this hadn't gotten<BR>
> a parade permit. I'm not up on the details, but apparently they had<BR>
> some sort of objection to doing so. In any case the cops *did* have<BR>
> advance notice about where and when things were going to start. <BR>
> <BR>
> The trouble started when the cops told them to move along (*not*<BR>
> "disperse"!) and they wouldn't. <BR>
<BR>
Actually, couldn't disperse is more accurate.  There was a peaceful <BR>
march going on until the cops showed up.  At that point, the police <BR>
got on either side of the protesters and ordered them to disperse in <BR>
the other direction.  That being impossible, since as soon as they <BR>
tried to move one way the cops on that side ordered them to move <BR>
back in the other direction the cops opened up with clubs and <BR>
beanbag rounds.  Very much a no-win situation for the protesters.  <BR>
<BR>
Later the cops claimed that the protesters broke a window at the <BR>
Nike store (Nike says they didn't have a broken window) and that <BR>
the protesters had invaded the grounds of a school (the folks at the <BR>
school deny this).  The police report after the fact was a pack of <BR>
lies.  Basically, Portland has a new police chief who's from LA, and <BR>
he is dealing with Portland like the LA police usually deal with their <BR>
own city (oppress, beat up, and otherwise terrorize anyone you <BR>
don't like).  At best, the cops vastly mismanaged that incident.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:32:38 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Moin John Snead,<BR>
> <BR>
> > Sure, things got violent after the police attacked. The police up<BR>
> > there were using tactics designed to incite a riot not to stop one.<BR>
> > With a riot the cops would have an excuse to crack down hard on the<BR>
> > protestors and so protect the slimeballs at the conference.<BR>
> <BR>
>   divide & emperor<BR>
> <BR>
>   Common covernment tactics is to divide "peacefull" from "militant".<BR>
> <BR>
>   Inviting a riot within a peacefull group ensures that, some will<BR>
>   fight the police, while others try to dispense. Handling a<BR>
>   demonstration of several 1000 people, who are strong in staying<BR>
>   "peacefull" is impossible for the covernment without losing its<BR>
>   white collars.<BR>
<BR>
Exactly.<BR>
<BR>
>   A usual way to draw public simpathy from a left wing movement is to<BR>
>   use some 'so called terrorists', who are in reality finananced and<BR>
>   controled by some intelligence agency, to support this left wing<BR>
>   movement. The government can be sure to divide a movement, if some<BR>
>   people are starting to throw bombs or to hijack airliners, while<BR>
>   claiming to support this movement.<BR>
<BR>
Very true.  As some veterans of the 60s protests tell me, when a <BR>
protest suddenly turns violent look for who threw the first brick.  <BR>
Likely you don't know them and they were paid by the cops to do <BR>
so.  This has been proved in a few cases in the 60s and suspected <BR>
in many more both then and now.  In typical mob mentality, once <BR>
the bricks start flying and the cops start responding to this violence <BR>
you have a full-scale riot.    <BR>
 <BR>
These sort of tactics are very old and very standard.  I'm certain <BR>
that they will still be used in the Imperium (to drag this vastly off-<BR>
topic post back towards something relevant).  That is, on those <BR>
world which have the right the free assembly.  Many won't and so <BR>
all protests can be made instantly illegal.  Or, as is the case in <BR>
many large organized societies, like the US, permits may be <BR>
necessary for protests, and the government can make them illegal <BR>
by simply not issuing the permits (as was the case in the recent <BR>
World Bank protests in Washington DC). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:41:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> (Why people are surprised when they start riots and then get their heads<BR>
> cracked, I really don't know.  Take a cop who is already under stress, being<BR>
> forced to move "peaceful protesters" who've decided not to move under the<BR>
> eyes of the media-- talk about a job no one with an ounce of sanity would<BR>
> want-- and then call him names, call his family names, swear at him and<BR>
> generally do everything you can think of to be provocative-- and then you're<BR>
> surprised when he hits you?  Please.  You're stupid if you do this.  I don't<BR>
> care how good someone's training is supposed to have been, why test their<BR>
> limits like that?)<BR>
<BR>
I think a telling point about the "May Day riot" here in Portland is<BR>
that there weren't any reports of serious injuries. I saw the way the<BR>
cops were using their batons (thrusting to get the people to move) and<BR>
I know damn well from my SCA experience that if they weren't in<BR>
control, and being careful, there'd have been a *lot* of *serious*<BR>
injuries. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:34:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
As I understand it, they don't scale up well.<BR>
<BR>
> That's how we currently store antimatter (is it worth making anything<BR>
> else besides antihydrogen?)<BR>
<BR>
That's how we store antiprotons. We have no way of storing<BR>
anti-hydrogen.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:58:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I find the notion of considering the 'illogic' of a rules as a<BR>
> means of concluding that they are wrong to be so anathema to the<BR>
> very notion of Traveller canon to be so far beyond the pale that<BR>
> it is unlikely I would be able to redeem you from such heresy. <BR>
> As such I made no attempt to redeem you as you are obviously beyond<BR>
> hope of salvation unless you recant. (To put the argument in <BR>
> theological terms). :)<BR>
<BR>
This is a *game*. Unlike religion, the rules are *supposed* to make<BR>
sense. <BR>
<BR>
>> ("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
>> hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
><BR>
> Say rather:<BR>
><BR>
> "Eneri Generi the law states that you must be in school or<BR>
> have a job. As you do not but are obviously such unworthy<BR>
> scum that the military services would be better off without your<BR>
> presence you are hereby ordered to work for the Imperial Starport <BR>
> Custodial Service."<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem. If this was the case, most *PCs* would be getting<BR>
"drafted" during or between adventures!<BR>
<BR>
Lack of a "job" won't work, neither will "no visible means of support".<BR>
Even "lack of cash" is kinda iffy.<BR>
<BR>
> This does not seem implausible to me.<BR>
<BR>
Only because you haven't thought it thru. When you do, you'll find the<BR>
exact problems I mention above. <BR>
<BR>
> I'd say the presence of the draft suggests the presence of an<BR>
> Imperial law requiring 18 year olds who are thinking of letting<BR>
> themselves be played as PC's in the future must be in college or <BR>
> have a job. If future PC's don't make successful arrangements prior <BR>
> to the day of their 18th birthday to enter a college or find a <BR>
> job (or military career) than they are subject to a Draft.<BR>
<BR>
Hold it *right* there. PCs don't *exist* inside the game universe. So<BR>
any "laws" or "regulations" or whatever IN THE GAME WORLD that apply<BR>
*only* to PCs are flat out *impossible*. Only game mechanics can<BR>
differentiate between PCs and NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
> In the canonical Traveller rules this draft can subject you<BR>
> to a 1d6 roll with the possible results being:<BR>
><BR>
> Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Merchants, and Other [Trav Bk. p24]<BR>
> Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Flyer, and Sailor [MT PM p 20]<BR>
> or in Milieu 0<BR>
> Army, Army, Navy, Marines, Merchants, Scout [T4 p 26]<BR>
><BR>
>> >In the Imperium some early Emperor probably ruled that the Draft was not<BR>
>> >Chattel Slavery and hence did not violate the Warrant of Restoration.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> It is even more propable that the draft of the character generation system<BR>
>> does not represent an actual Imperial draft.<BR>
><BR>
> By that logic the presence of the Scout career does not<BR>
> prove the Imperium has Scouts and the presence of a material<BR>
> benefits table does not mean that characters who muster out<BR>
> ever have any money.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, you are confusing game *mechanics* with the internal rules of<BR>
the game world. Just as you did above when you spoke of a law that<BR>
dealt only with potential PCs.<BR>
<BR>
By the logic *you* are using, the characters in the game world would be<BR>
rilling dice to see if they could enlist in a service, and again to see<BR>
if they got "drafted" into another upon failure.<BR>
<BR>
The rolls produce results in the game world, such as determining what<BR>
service you wind up in, and what you do while in it, as well as what<BR>
you leave the service with. <BR>
<BR>
But they do not determine *how* those results occur in the game world,<BR>
merely that they *do* occur. And that's where you are getting confused.<BR>
<BR>
> The rules are a model that simulates the Third Imperium. The<BR>
> character generation rules may not represent a statistically<BR>
> valid model of the Third Imperium (which is not 1/36th Barons)<BR>
> but they represent the potential PC's. Just as you should<BR>
> accept that a PC is a Baron (or Baronet) if he is SOC 12 you should<BR>
> accept that he was in fact subject to a real draft if he failed<BR>
> of enlistment. This draft may not be universal but it does<BR>
> exist by the letter of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
The *effect* exists (ie you wind up in that service). But the *cause*<BR>
isn't necessarily a true "draft". You are confusing a label used in the<BR>
simulation with a *possible* reason for an effect in the world being<BR>
simulated. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:56:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
I was at the Klan rally in NYC awhile back and I was trapped amongst an<BR>
extremely large crowd of extremely antagonistic and uncivil protestors.<BR>
Mostly Communists or Socialists or whatever they were calling themselves,<BR>
and there to do more than just show up and say how many people there were<BR>
who didn't agree with the Klan. These people went out of their way to insult<BR>
and aggravate the police, protest utterly unrelated issues (the cop killer<BR>
in Philadelphia), and generally attempt to deny anyone who did not agree<BR>
with them the right to speak freely. Some of them assaulted members of the<BR>
Klan group going to speak as well as bystanders who questioned why anyone<BR>
should be silenced. I am rather surprised I wasn't attacked since I got fed<BR>
up and began my own private protest against the protest. I've always had a<BR>
certain degree of (dumb) luck. Perhaps the most "amusing" part was when a<BR>
protestor whined to a cop who was injured that he would probably go on<BR>
workmen's comp for his injury and I loudly inquired if that wasn't<BR>
originally a socialist idea and they all suddenly shut up. They also had no<BR>
answer when I pointed to various Black, Hispanic and  Asian cops and asked<BR>
if they too qualified under the "chant of the day" as accepted partners in<BR>
"Cops and Klan go hand in hand". Again, no answers.<BR>
All protestors peaceful and all violence started by provocateurs?<BR>
Nice theory, bad reality.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:14:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Coommee be one of ussss.  I even got a cool orange hat.<BR>
><BR>
> Ah yes. Safety orange, wonderfull color, without the prominent display of<BR>
> which even the least deer like of human beings is fair game during hunting<BR>
> season.<BR>
<BR>
Friend told me, many years back, of the time he was at a gravel pit<BR>
near some woods early in hunting season. He was sighting in some rifles<BR>
and this hiker popped up. He was wearing a doesskin jacket. My friend<BR>
tried tget him to understand it was a *bad* idea to go walking in the<BR>
wods during hunting season wearing *that*. But the guy wouldn't listen.<BR>
So my friend finisherd sighting in his rifles, and packed up. He said<BR>
he'd heard some shots from the woods (including what he *swore* sounded<BR>
like a BAR (*highly* illegal for hunting!)), but he never saw anything<BR>
on the news about anyone getting shot or missing in that area.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:26:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: rats<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought that<BR>
>>>the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
>>Monotremes *are* mammals. At least until they revise things again.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
>>Class: Mammalia<BR>
>>Subclass: Prototheria<BR>
>>Order: Monotremata<BR>
>>Note that "Primates" (Primata) is an order. <BR>
>>So yes, Platypi are mammals (officially).<BR>
><BR>
>         No doubt Leonard knows this, but just to be clear: Primates is<BR>
>         not an order within subclass Prototheria.<BR>
<BR>
I didn't say that they were. I just said that "primata" is an order.<BR>
<BR>
>  There are three<BR>
>         recognized subclasses within class Mammalia: Prototheria (the<BR>
>         monotremes), Metatheria (the marsupials), and Eutheria (the<BR>
>         placental mammals).<BR>
<BR>
The chart I'm working from (copyright 1997) isn't broken down that way.<BR>
It has just *two* sub-classes to Mammalia: Prototheria, and Theria.<BR>
With Marsupialia being an *order* under Theria.<BR>
<BR>
>                 Proboscidia (elephants)<BR>
		  Proboscidea on my chart.<BR>
<BR>
>                 Cetatea (whales, dolphins, and porpoises)<BR>
		  Cetacea on my chart<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:33:53 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: monotremes & venomous mammals<BR>
<BR>
Re: monotremes --<BR>
<BR>
There are three genera, with three species:<BR>
<BR>
Ornithorynchus anatinus (platypus)<BR>
Zaglossus bruijni (long snooted echidna; very weird looking)<BR>
Tachyglossus aculeatus (short snooted echidna; the almost cute one)<BR>
<BR>
Both echidnas are found in New Guinea, with the short snouted one found<BR>
in Australia & Tasmania as well (also where to find platypuses).<BR>
<BR>
Re: venom <BR>
<BR>
Both Echidna genera also have poison spurs on the hindlegs.  Nor is <BR>
venom confined to monotremes among mammalia.  Some species of insectivore<BR>
have venomous saliva (at least one species of shrew & a weird Carribean<BR>
insectivore called the solenodon).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I think uplifted Zaglossus echidnas would make a suitably weird<BR>
Traveller alien race.  Well, maybe not...   :P<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:41:30 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: request: nuclear quickmatch drive<BR>
<BR>
Hi.<BR>
<BR>
A few posts back someone posted details about a nuclear rocket that I can<BR>
only describe as a "nuclear quickmatch" (think musket).  Could they either <BR>
email me with the info, repost it to the TML, or post which issue of the <BR>
digest <BR>
it was in so I can get the issue from the archive.<BR>
  <BR>
Thanks in advance...<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com  (who really gets off on nuclear rockets, for some reason)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:44:06 EDT<BR>
From: TAISHON@aol.com<BR>
Subject: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
Please respond to Taishon@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
I understand that Imperium (or Marc Miller as the case may be) is no longer <BR>
publishing Traveller stuff. I also understand that a Traveller version 5 is <BR>
in the works. My questions;<BR>
<BR>
(1) How do I get a hold of copies of the Journal of Traveller's Aid before <BR>
#25. Is there going to be a hard copy continuation of the journal anytime <BR>
soon ?<BR>
(2) Will the version 5 traveller and supplements be easily compatible with <BR>
version four (aka "Marc Miller's" traveller).<BR>
(3) What is happening with Imperium games ? Will Imperium Games be publishing <BR>
traveller stuff in the near future ?<BR>
<BR>
   Thanx,<BR>
  Steve <BR>
<BR>
PS I am looking for mature (at least in the mid-20s) traveller players and <BR>
GMs in the Northern California bay area. They must have a life and have <BR>
pleasant sociable personalities and willing to play once per month. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:37:33 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <TAISHON@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 10:44 PM<BR>
Subject: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Please respond to Taishon@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
> I understand that Imperium (or Marc Miller as the case may be) is no<BR>
longer<BR>
> publishing Traveller stuff. I also understand that a Traveller version 5<BR>
is<BR>
> in the works. My questions;<BR>
><BR>
> (1) How do I get a hold of copies of the Journal of Traveller's Aid before<BR>
> #25. Is there going to be a hard copy continuation of the journal anytime<BR>
> soon ?<BR>
<BR>
Second hand games shops, eBay, Conventions, Online Games stores etc...<BR>
<BR>
try the following links:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.ebay.com<BR>
<BR>
http://www.nobleknight.com/gdw.html<BR>
<BR>
> (2) Will the version 5 traveller and supplements be easily compatible with<BR>
> version four (aka "Marc Miller's" traveller).<BR>
<BR>
Should be, as I understand it is basically a rewritten and updated<BR>
(incorporating errata) version. It will be produced by Far Future<BR>
Enterprises (see below)<BR>
<BR>
> (3) What is happening with Imperium games ? Will Imperium Games be<BR>
publishing<BR>
> traveller stuff in the near future ?<BR>
<BR>
Imperium Games went to the wall a couple of years ago. Currently there are<BR>
three main sources of Traveller Products:<BR>
<BR>
Far Future Enterprises (Marc Millers Company) which is currently publishing<BR>
the Classic (Little Black Book) Traveller items in large format collections.<BR>
Books 0-8 are currently available in one volume, and the next (Supplements<BR>
1-13) are due out this month, with further releases of the adventures,<BR>
double adventures, games, and possibly JTAS, to come later, along with T5.<BR>
See http://hometown.aol.com/FarFuture<BR>
<BR>
Steve Jackson Games, who have a licensed verion of Traveller for Gurps. This<BR>
is a well supported range with several specifically Traveller books already<BR>
published and others on the way (see Doug for details <g>). The Gurps<BR>
Traveller books are very usefull for other versions of Traveller, and are<BR>
worth getting even if you don't intend to play Gurps. See<BR>
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/<BR>
<BR>
BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) are publishers of a dozen or so well<BR>
recieved Traveller supplements and adventures, which are available through<BR>
Steve Jackson Games in the USA. See Dom for more details, or visit<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk<BR>
<BR>
>    Thanx,<BR>
>   Steve<BR>
><BR>
> PS I am looking for mature (at least in the mid-20s) traveller players and<BR>
> GMs in the Northern California bay area. They must have a life and have<BR>
> pleasant sociable personalities and willing to play once per month.<BR>
<BR>
There seems to be a surplus of Traveller players in the Bay area...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:54:40<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
At 05:44 PM 7/1/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>(1) How do I get a hold of copies of the Journal of Traveller's Aid before <BR>
>#25. Is there going to be a hard copy continuation of the journal anytime <BR>
>soon ?<BR>
<BR>
Imperium produced two issues of JTAS, and currently there is an on-line<BR>
version supported by Steve Jackson Games with Loren Wiseman at the helm.<BR>
<BR>
>(2) Will the version 5 traveller and supplements be easily compatible with <BR>
>version four (aka "Marc Miller's" traveller).<BR>
<BR>
From what we've seen, yes.<BR>
<BR>
>(3) What is happening with Imperium games ? Will Imperium Games be<BR>
>publishing traveller stuff in the near future ?<BR>
<BR>
Not if we can help it.  They are out of business, good riddance to bad<BR>
rubbish.<BR>
<BR>
>PS I am looking for mature (at least in the mid-20s) traveller players and <BR>
>GMs in the Northern California bay area. They must have a life and have <BR>
>pleasant sociable personalities and willing to play once per month. <BR>
<BR>
Another one!  The Bay Area seems to have become a gathering point for<BR>
Traveller fans, and we have our own, low-volume mailing list for local<BR>
games and issues.  We also tend to investigate bars.  It's research!<BR>
<BR>
http://www.egroups.com/community/TravellerinSF<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry   Templar Agent at Large.<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TravGeekCode: <BR>
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i<BR>
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da<BR>
         <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2705<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2706</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2706<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
Re: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Famile Spofulam PuRSe 'Handgun'<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:09:08 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
TAISHON@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Please respond to Taishon@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
I responded to both the TML and your personal address.<BR>
> <BR>
> I understand that Imperium (or Marc Miller as the case may be) is no longer<BR>
> publishing Traveller stuff. I also understand that a Traveller version 5 is<BR>
> in the works. My questions;<BR>
> <BR>
> (1) How do I get a hold of copies of the Journal of Traveller's Aid before<BR>
> #25. Is there going to be a hard copy continuation of the journal anytime<BR>
> soon ?<BR>
<BR>
See Matt Bond's reply.  Also, Far Futures Enterprises (i.e., Marc<BR>
Miller) will eventually republish JTAS as follows:  Issues 1-12 (in one<BR>
volume), Issues 13-24 (in a second volume), and Issues 25-36 (in a third<BR>
volume).  Info on Classic Traveller reprints can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.aol.com/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
> (2) Will the version 5 traveller and supplements be easily compatible with<BR>
> version four (aka "Marc Miller's" traveller).\<BR>
<BR>
Decide for yourself, by visiting the link above, then following the<BR>
links to T5.  Check out the links from T5 to Careers and Life Pursuits.<BR>
<BR>
> (3) What is happening with Imperium games ? Will Imperium Games be publishing<BR>
> traveller stuff in the near future ?<BR>
<BR>
Imperium Games is no longer licensed to produce material for Traveller.<BR>
> <BR>
> PS I am looking for mature (at least in the mid-20s) traveller players and<BR>
> GMs in the Northern California bay area. They must have a life and have<BR>
> pleasant sociable personalities and willing to play once per month.<BR>
<BR>
There is a Traveller in San Francisco mailing list.  Try the following<BR>
URL to subscribe:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.egroups.com/group/TravellerinSF<BR>
<BR>
Their motto (from a flyer posted at BayCon 2000):<BR>
<BR>
We keep the Flame...even in the fog.<BR>
<BR>
<aside><BR>
<BR>
Doug, Kiri, Glenn, et al: help this guy out.  I've _made_ my<BR>
(soon-to-be) annual pilgrimage up that way, and I can't be there again<BR>
ntil next BayCon....  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
</aside><BR>
<BR>
One other thing, Steve:<BR>
<BR>
<plug><BR>
<BR>
If you play T4, you can find some useful ship designs at the AuricTech<BR>
site (see our motto in my .sig file):<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
Gridlore Technologies is another useful site:<BR>
<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/gridtech.html<BR>
<BR>
[Note: The webmaster for Gridlore Technologies is San Francisco resident<BR>
Doug Berry.  You'll learn more about him (and other notorious TML<BR>
denizens) if you hang out on the TML for any length of time.]<BR>
<BR>
</plug><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:04:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
At 01:25 PM 7/1/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Coommee be one of ussss.  I even got a cool orange hat.<BR>
><BR>
>Ah yes. Safety orange, wonderfull color, without the prominent display of<BR>
>which even the least deer like of human beings is fair game during hunting<BR>
>season.<BR>
<BR>
I got mine because M. Cook needed an extra RSO for the day.  Other than<BR>
being in the ejection patern of that damn Ingram all day, I had a lot of fun!<BR>
<BR>
You can see my Cool Orange Hat at my personal website.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:07:41<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
<BR>
At 01:40 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>"The New York Goodfellas used their first round pick to select Weatherby<BR>
>George DuPree, a protection racketeer from Brooklyn."<BR>
<BR>
Now just add Dick Vitale, and you've got a winner.<BR>
<BR>
Non-US/Basketball folk: Dick Vital is ESPN's college basketball<BR>
commentator.  This man is hyperkinetic onto the point of being an ongoing<BR>
seizure.  He loves college hoops, and his voice, and speaking style are<BR>
distinctive to say the least...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 16:15:50<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
At 06:09 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>[Note: The webmaster for Gridlore Technologies is San Francisco resident<BR>
>Doug Berry.  You'll learn more about him (and other notorious TML<BR>
>denizens) if you hang out on the TML for any length of time.]<BR>
<BR>
That's Penguin-meister, author, and Friend to the Great and Near Great to<BR>
you, buddy!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:22:12 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> [Note: The webmaster for Gridlore Technologies is San Francisco resident<BR>
> Doug Berry.  You'll learn more about him (and other notorious TML<BR>
> denizens) if you hang out on the TML for any length of time.]<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of notorious TMLers, whatever _did_ happen to Kenji?<BR>
<BR>
Also, who besides Doug bears the title of "TML Great Old One"?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 18:33:06 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 06:09 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >[Note: The webmaster for Gridlore Technologies is San Francisco resident<BR>
> >Doug Berry.  You'll learn more about him (and other notorious TML<BR>
> >denizens) if you hang out on the TML for any length of time.]<BR>
> <BR>
> That's Penguin-meister, author, and Friend to the Great and Near Great to<BR>
> you, buddy!<BR>
<BR>
And (thanks to you!) that's Staff Sergeant John Groth, Rapid Interface<BR>
trooper, penguin-resistant target, and posthumous awardee of the<BR>
Starburst for Extreme Heroism to _you_! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  Would my trip from Baton Rouge to San Jose for BayCon be the<BR>
Traveller equivalent of a trip from one sector to another for a personal<BR>
meeting?<BR>
<BR>
~musing that most of the newer TMLers are thoroughly confused by now<BR>
<evil grin>~<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:40:21 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Famile Spofulam PuRSe 'Handgun'<BR>
<BR>
Capable of stopping most muggers and some armoured personell carriers, the<BR>
Famile Spofulam Personal Rocket System fits within a handbag, but brings a<BR>
level of security than only 40mm of Self-Forging Projectile can guarantee.<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam - with us, safety comes first, second and third.<BR>
<BR>
TL8 ; 500 grams, 120 credits (including obscene profit margin).<BR>
<BR>
Rocket is 100 grams of TL8 solid fuel, capable of 294 newton-seconds of<BR>
thrust, for 0.1 seconds. By my numbers, this translates to a speed of 100<BR>
ms-1 after the burn phase ends.<BR>
<BR>
Warhead is a 200 gram 40 mm Rocket warhead. SEFOP wahead is pen 68, DV 2. HE<BR>
is DV 5. Concussion is DV 8 (non-lethal). Or you could use it as a Flare gun<BR>
(100m illumination radius).<BR>
<BR>
Weapon includes a hollow pistol grip and 100 grams worth of plastic runner<BR>
to help aim the rocket.<BR>
<BR>
******************<BR>
Well, what do people think ? I guess we could build a militarised version,<BR>
with a magazine, and a real stock and stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Legals note that it could be sold as a flare gun, with the SEFOP warhead as<BR>
an unauthorised after-market modification.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 17:35:14 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > I find the notion of considering the 'illogic' of a rules as a<BR>
> > means of concluding that they are wrong to be so anathema to the<BR>
> > very notion of Traveller canon to be so far beyond the pale that<BR>
> > it is unlikely I would be able to redeem you from such heresy. <BR>
> > As such I made no attempt to redeem you as you are obviously beyond<BR>
> > hope of salvation unless you recant. (To put the argument in <BR>
> > theological terms). :)<BR>
> <BR>
> This is a *game*. Unlike religion, the rules are *supposed* to make<BR>
> sense. <BR>
<BR>
They are supposed to make sense to the _designer_. Since<BR>
no two people think in the same way they may, or may not,<BR>
make sense to any given player. The fact that any given player<BR>
does not see the sense of a particular rule does not mean that <BR>
the designers did not have good and sufficient reasons of his<BR>
own for creating that rule.<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes a rule is intended to be a faithful model of the<BR>
fictional universe that is being represented. Sometimes this<BR>
model has to be abstracted a bit.<BR>
<BR>
For example: "Bob is an ex-Scout" from Aramis explains the<BR>
character in background terms. "Bob has Pilot-2" explains<BR>
the character in game terms. To me "Bob was drafted into the <BR>
Scouts is background while to you it is game terms.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps we should consider asking one of the games designers<BR>
if the Third Imperium (or parts thereof) has a draft.<BR>
<BR>
> >> ("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
> >> hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Say rather:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Eneri Generi the law states that you must be in school or<BR>
> > have a job. As you do not but are obviously such unworthy<BR>
> > scum that the military services would be better off without your<BR>
> > presence you are hereby ordered to work for the Imperial Starport <BR>
> > Custodial Service."<BR>
> <BR>
> Slight problem. If this was the case, most *PCs* would be getting<BR>
> "drafted" during or between adventures!<BR>
<BR>
"Enlistment or draft is not allowed after age 18." [CT: The<BR>
Traveller Book p 18, column 1]<BR>
<BR>
No they won't because they are not eighteen years old. [1] The <BR>
draft law, as was clearly established in the Traveller rules I <BR>
have just cited (and in a previous post) applies to eighteen <BR>
year olds only. <BR>
<BR>
> Lack of a "job" won't work, neither will "no visible means of support".<BR>
> Even "lack of cash" is kinda iffy.<BR>
<BR>
The PC's are not eighteen years old, thus the law does not<BR>
apply. Once you are past draft age you are immune to the draft<BR>
per the Traveller rules themselves. Moreover consider that<BR>
19 year old MT characters (who washed out of college<BR>
or a service after one year) would be eligible for the draft.<BR>
Since the canon rules do not say that they are then clearly the<BR>
draft must apply only to eighteen year olds.<BR>
<BR>
> > This does not seem implausible to me.<BR>
> <BR>
> Only because you haven't thought it thru. When you do, you'll find the<BR>
> exact problems I mention above. <BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I will thank you very much not to assume what I have<BR>
or have not thought through. The fact that you would not have <BR>
come to the same conclusions I did when I thought it through<BR>
does _not_ mean that I did not think it through. Rather it means<BR>
that we think _differently_. Notice that, unlike you, I did not <BR>
respond with a remark something like: "Only because you have<BR>
not read the Traveller rules which clearly prove that the draft<BR>
applies only to eighteen year olds." If I said something like<BR>
that it would be rude. I consider your statement that I must<BR>
not have thought something through to be rude.<BR>
<BR>
> > I'd say the presence of the draft suggests the presence of an<BR>
> > Imperial law requiring 18 year olds who are thinking of letting<BR>
> > themselves be played as PC's in the future must be in college or <BR>
> > have a job. If future PC's don't make successful arrangements prior <BR>
> > to the day of their 18th birthday to enter a college or find a <BR>
> > job (or military career) than they are subject to a Draft.<BR>
<BR>
> Hold it *right* there. PCs don't *exist* inside the game universe. So<BR>
> any "laws" or "regulations" or whatever IN THE GAME WORLD that apply<BR>
> *only* to PCs are flat out *impossible*. Only game mechanics can<BR>
> differentiate between PCs and NPCs.<BR>
<BR>
I was being satirical, perhaps I should have used an emoticon.<BR>
<BR>
> you are confusing game *mechanics* with the internal rules of<BR>
> the game world. Just as you did above when you spoke of a law that<BR>
> dealt only with potential PCs.<BR>
<BR>
Analogy Alert:<BR>
<BR>
The game mechanics are the model that the authors used to<BR>
map the fictional territory of the Third Imperium. The map is <BR>
not the territory. The Third Imperium is fiction therefore the<BR>
territory in question does not exist. All we have to go upon<BR>
is the map. You are using the map to say: "The Third Imperium<BR>
looks sort of like this and to go here I need to turn right<BR>
at this intersection." I am using the map to say: "The scale of<BR>
the map is 1:63,360 (an inch to the mile) and since this hill<BR>
measures 49.70 mm long according to my measurements with this<BR>
micrometer than the hill in question must be 3,150 meters<BR>
(rounded to four figures since my measurement of 49.70 mm was<BR>
four figures) long." My use of the map is not invalid just<BR>
because it is a more specific use than yours is. Nor does the<BR>
fact that the hill is fiction stop me from measuring its<BR>
length in the fictional universe.<BR>
<BR>
> But they do not determine *how* those results occur in the game world,<BR>
> merely that they *do* occur. And that's where you are getting confused.<BR>
<BR>
And sometimes they do map how these results occur. To me when <BR>
the rules say that characters attempt to enlist in a service <BR>
they are mapping _how_ that charecter joined that service. To <BR>
me when they say that if this enlistment attempt fails the charecter <BR>
must submit to the draft they are mapping _how_ that charecter <BR>
is involuntarily forced into the service. Considering that the <BR>
designers of Traveller were of draft age in the Vietnam era is <BR>
it really surprising that a game their fictional government <BR>
(the Third Imperium) would have a draft?<BR>
<BR>
When the rules say that "you are drafted into the Scouts" I read this<BR>
as "you are drafted into the Scouts." You are the person who <BR>
is trying for another interpretation, not me.<BR>
<BR>
> > The rules are a model that simulates the Third Imperium. The<BR>
> > character generation rules may not represent a statistically<BR>
> > valid model of the Third Imperium (which is not 1/36th Barons)<BR>
> > but they represent the potential PC's. Just as you should<BR>
> > accept that a PC is a Baron (or Baronet) if he is SOC 12 you should<BR>
> > accept that he was in fact subject to a real draft if he failed<BR>
> > of enlistment. This draft may not be universal but it does<BR>
> > exist by the letter of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> The *effect* exists (ie you wind up in that service). But the *cause*<BR>
> isn't necessarily a true "draft". You are confusing a label used in the<BR>
> simulation with a *possible* reason for an effect in the world being<BR>
> simulated. <BR>
<BR>
The rules state that Draftees are not eligible for promotion<BR>
during their first terms. If the drafted charecters were not <BR>
somehow different from the voluntary enlistees than why would <BR>
the promotion rules make this distinction?<BR>
<BR>
[1] Unless they are one term barbarians. Possibly one term <BR>
barbarians should be subject to the draft.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:45:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
<BR>
One of these days Dick Vitale is going to do one of those "Goin' to the Hole<BR>
Baaaaybeee" lines and freeze in a rictus with his lips still in the process<BR>
of uttering the last word...after this occurs,  his collegues would probably<BR>
take two or three minutes to figure out he had vapor-locked.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:07 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: The "Other" Career and the CT Draft<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 01:40 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >"The New York Goodfellas used their first round pick to select Weatherby<BR>
> >George DuPree, a protection racketeer from Brooklyn."<BR>
><BR>
> Now just add Dick Vitale, and you've got a winner.<BR>
><BR>
> Non-US/Basketball folk: Dick Vital is ESPN's college basketball<BR>
> commentator.  This man is hyperkinetic onto the point of being an ongoing<BR>
> seizure.  He loves college hoops, and his voice, and speaking style are<BR>
> distinctive to say the least...<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:01:56 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
"Son of Heaven"...no.  The bureaucracy..."section 9" loosely controls the <BR>
sub-sector...I haven't created entire sectors yet...and the players wouldnt <BR>
likely explore them all anyway....  Section 9 and only a few businesses have <BR>
tightly controlled the spread of imperium information to keep control of the <BR>
populace and noone other than them(in theory) has any reliable charts and its <BR>
illegal to "go exploring" without their say so....imperium isnt on the <BR>
agenda...at least for the current storyline.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
its kinda nice to have people "challenge" me on story, rules...etc..with <BR>
questions, statements, whatever...thanks<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 04:21:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
> Hmmm.  Would my trip from Baton Rouge to San Jose for BayCon be the<BR>
> Traveller equivalent of a trip from one sector to another for a personal<BR>
> meeting?<BR>
<BR>
Naaah! Barely out of the subsector...<BR>
<BR>
I would say<BR>
<BR>
Small Country (eg Andorra/Luxembourg) => Hex<BR>
Medium Country (eg Portugal/Belgium) => ~1/2 subsector<BR>
Large Country (eg France/Germany) => Subsector<BR>
Huge Country / Small Continent (eg USA/USSR/Europe) => Several subsectors<BR>
Medium Continent (eg North America) => Sector<BR>
Large Continent (eg Asia) => Several Sectors<BR>
Planet (eg Earth!) => Charted Space<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:40:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Another one!  The Bay Area seems to have become a gathering point for<BR>
>Traveller fans, and we have our own, low-volume mailing list for local<BR>
>games and issues.  We also tend to investigate bars.  It's research!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, are you looking for a patron, rumor, or a bar fight?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:41:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>[Note: The webmaster for Gridlore Technologies is San Francisco resident<BR>
>>Doug Berry.  You'll learn more about him (and other notorious TML<BR>
>>denizens) if you hang out on the TML for any length of time.]<BR>
><BR>
>That's Penguin-meister, author, and Friend to the Great and Near Great to<BR>
>you, buddy!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    But, do you have friends in low places?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:23:54 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/1/00 11:37:38 AM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< One good thing has come of this thread.  Now that I've heard of jury<BR>
 nullification, there's no chance I'll ever have to serve on a jury in my<BR>
 life.  I'll just threaten to say the words and be kicked out of there so<BR>
 fast...<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
The problem is that any well-educated person is probably passed by one side <BR>
or the other anyway. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 00:06:42 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >Another one!  The Bay Area seems to have become a gathering point for<BR>
> >Traveller fans, and we have our own, low-volume mailing list for local<BR>
> >games and issues.  We also tend to investigate bars.  It's research!<BR>
> <BR>
>     Well, are you looking for a patron, rumor, or a bar fight?<BR>
<BR>
Having met several of the Bay Area TMLers, I suspect that the proper<BR>
answer is "Yes." ;-)<BR>
<BR>
And I would unhesitatingly adventure with any of them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:19:29 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
> <BR>
> > Hmmm.  Would my trip from Baton Rouge to San Jose for BayCon be the<BR>
> > Traveller equivalent of a trip from one sector to another for a personal<BR>
> > meeting?<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hey John you are in Baton Rouge, so am I.  How many other <BR>
TMLers are around here.  Maybe we can get a group running here.<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: Thr Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:19:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "Son of Heaven"...no.  The bureaucracy..."section 9" loosely controls the <BR>
> sub-sector...<BR>
<BR>
Gee, they are scattered among several stars. Does that make them the<BR>
"celestial bureaucracy"? :-)<BR>
<BR>
> noone other than them(in theory) has any reliable charts and its <BR>
> illegal to "go exploring" without their say so....<BR>
<BR>
"Sorry, we had a misjump"<BR>
<BR>
What are they going to do?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 01:15:51 EDT<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just <BR>
lurk around, but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first <BR>
came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.  <BR>
Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who antedate us <BR>
all?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 07:50:15 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>>I'm not going to argue with you about whether you are right about your<BR>
>>belief that a draft is equivalent to slavery,  All I will point out is<BR>
>>that not everybody agrees with you, and that is is possible for someone<BR>
>>to be against slavery and yet condone a draft. There's no reason to<BR>
>>suppose that the elite of the 3rd Imperium are not among them. <BR>
><BR>
>You are quite right when you say that not everyone agrees with me on this<BR>
>one. However my interpretation, even though less common, is (at least<BR>
>IMNSHO) a more literal reading of the letter of the 'no slavery law'. <BR>
<BR>
Well, history does show us examples where one man was right though everybody<BR>
else said otherwise (Of course, it also provides us with a much larger number<BR>
of examples where the one man was wrong).<BR>
<BR>
>I was suggesting that in doing so they are redefining words to suit their<BR>
>own needs in a manner that I find hypocritical.<BR>
<BR>
Now, this is what I take issue with. Unless I'm wrong about the meaning of<BR>
the word, it's only hypocritical if they actually believe that the draft is<BR>
the equivalent of slavery, yet accept the one while deploring the other. If<BR>
they don't think that this is the case, then they are not being hypocritical<BR>
regardless of whether they are right or wrong.<BR>
<BR>
>Moreover supporting a civilian draft, as I believe the Third Imperium does,<BR>
>yet denying that you have slavery, is even more of a hypocritical lie.<BR>
<BR>
See above.<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, I note that you didn't attempt to refute the post where I pointed out<BR>
>>that it is ridiculous to suppose that the Other category had an actual<BR>
>>legally established draft procedure and almost as ridiculous to suppose<BR>
>>that the Merchants did. You merely ignored it.<BR>
> <BR>
>I ignored it because you were attempting to use what you consider to be the<BR>
>_implausibility_ of a written rule <BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying the rule is implausible. I'm saying that your interpretation<BR>
of it is implausible. There's a big difference.<BR>
<BR>
>...that appears in all three (CT, MT, and T4) canonical (i.e. not a variant,<BR>
>even a good variant such as GURPS: Trav) Traveller rules sets featuring the<BR>
>Third Imperium (not TNE).<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the draft rule does not appear in _Citizens of the Imperium_.<BR>
Characters generated according to this canonical CT book are not subject<BR>
to the draft.<BR>
<BR>
>I find the notion of considering the 'illogic' of a rules as a means of<BR>
>concluding that they are wrong to be so anathema to the very notion of<BR>
>Traveller canon to be so far beyond the pale that it is unlikely I would<BR>
>be able to redeem you from such heresy. <BR>
<BR>
While I firmly believe that a rule that does not make sense is a bad rule<BR>
and should be changed ASAP, I'm not claiming that the RULE is bad, just your<BR>
overlitteral interpretation of its game world implications.<BR>
<BR>
>>("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
>>hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
> <BR>
>Say rather:<BR>
> <BR>
>"Eneri Generi the law states that you must be in school or have a job. As<BR>
>you do not but are obviously such unworthy scum that the military services<BR>
>would be better off without your presence you are hereby ordered to work<BR>
>for the Imperial Starport Custodial Service."<BR>
><BR>
>This does not seem implausible to me.<BR>
<BR>
Repeat that for every occupation the Merchant and Other "service" represents<BR>
and tell me if you can say that again.<BR>
 <BR>
>I'd say the presence of the draft suggests the presence of an Imperial law<BR>
>requiring 18 year olds who are thinking of letting themselves be played as<BR>
>PC's in the future...<BR>
<BR>
I hope you're kidding. As far as the Imperium is concerned there is no such<BR>
thing as a PC, so how can there be Imperial legislation about any such beings?<BR>
<BR>
>In the canonical Traveller rules this draft can subject you<BR>
>to a 1d6 roll with the possible results being:<BR>
> <BR>
>Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Merchants, and Other [Trav Bk. p24]<BR>
<BR>
None. Try some other occupation until you succesfully enlist. [_Citizens_ p3]<BR>
<BR>
>Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Flyer, and Sailor [MT PM p 20]<BR>
<BR>
Which is another clear indication that the draft is an artifice of the<BR>
character generation rules rather than a reflection of the game world.<BR>
Otherwise the rules would have been the same for CT and MT, the two<BR>
rules sets covering periods very close or even overlapping.<BR>
<BR>
>>It is even more propable that the draft of the character generation system<BR>
>>does not represent an actual Imperial draft.<BR>
> <BR>
>By that logic the presence of the Scout career does not prove the Imperium<BR>
>has Scouts <BR>
<BR>
Quite right. It doesn't. But it does prove the existence of some way for<BR>
people to learn scout skills. And as for the IISS, we have plenty of game<BR>
universe references to it, so we do not have to rely on the scanty evidence<BR>
of the CGR. What evidence other than a single game mechanic do you have for<BR>
the existence of an Imperial draft?<BR>
<BR>
>...and the presence of a material benefits table does not mean that<BR>
>characters who muster out ever have any money.<BR>
<BR>
Eh? Of course it does. The system produces recently discharged characters<BR>
with money. So some characters obviously muster out with money.<BR>
<BR>
>The rules are a model that simulates the Third Imperium. <BR>
<BR>
To a limited extent, sure. All I'm claiming is that you're far over that<BR>
limit in your interpretation of them.<BR>
<BR>
>The character generation rules may not represent a statistically valid<BR>
>model of the Third Imperium (which is not 1/36th Barons) but they represent<BR>
>the potential PC's. Just as you should accept that a PC is a Baron (or<BR>
>Baronet) if he is SOC 12<BR>
<BR>
Bad example. I don't accept that. I interpret it to mean that the PC has a<BR>
small title in the local planetary nobility of his home world (or a very<BR>
minor Imperial knighthood). I do not take it to mean that he is the peer of<BR>
people who are more powerful than any king or emperor we have ever known on<BR>
Earth. <BR>
<BR>
>...you should accept that he was in fact subject to a real draft if he failed<BR>
>of enlistment. This draft may not be universal but it does exist by the<BR>
>letter of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
There are other examples in the character generation rules of words being<BR>
used in a manner inappropiate to the career in question for the sake of<BR>
a uniform terminology. For instance:<BR>
<BR>
"ENLISTMENT: A character may select any of the twelve career types in this<BR>
booklet[*]. Enlistment is term used for beginning in a military service; the<BR>
same term is used when referring to beginning a career in a civilian<BR>
occupation." [_Citizens..._ p2].<BR>
<BR>
[*] Pirates, Belters, Sailors, Diplomats, Doctors, Flyers, Barbarian,<BR>
    Bureaucrat, Rogue, Noble, Scientist & Hunter.<BR>
<BR>
"RE-ENLISTMENT: Generally, a character is free to leave a career, or to<BR>
remain for another term, depending on personal desires or goals. There <BR>
is some chance that other considerations may force the person out, or keep<BR>
the person in the specific career for another term." [_Citizens_, p3]<BR>
<BR>
In other words, the _game mechanic_ that is _called_ re-enlistment actually<BR>
represents an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
formal re-enlistment procedure.<BR>
<BR>
>>ISTR present-day national armies where it is possible for personnel to be<BR>
>>kept past their enlistment period in the event of a national emergency. I<BR>
>>also STR that this is often part of the enlistment CONTRACT. Y'know, the<BR>
>>agreement voluntarily entered into by the person being kept past the<BR>
>>agreed enlistment period.<BR>
> <BR>
>If slavery is illegal than any contract into which a person voluntarily<BR>
>enters into slavery is invalid on its face. <BR>
<BR>
Sure. But a draft does not become slavery just because you say so. So the<BR>
whole argument is moot. First you have to prove that the draft equals<BR>
slavery. Then you have to prove that the people of the Imperium deep down<BR>
believes that[*]. Then you have to prove that the Imperium actually has a<BR>
draft. None of which you have done, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
[*] Strictly speaking I suppose that you don't have to prove that draft =<BR>
    slavery. You just have to prove that the Imperial _believe_ that the<BR>
    draft = slavery. Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
>>And neither do we have any canon evidence that the draft in the character<BR>
>>generation system represents an actual Imperial (or local) draft. And a<BR>
>>good reason (the fact that the so-called draft can land you in a Free<BR>
>>Trader or the Others) to suppose that it does not.<BR>
><BR>
>Only in CT. If the Draft does not exist than why was the list of services<BR>
>into which you could be drafted changed in MT and T4? After all if no draft<BR>
>exists than why was the table changed.<BR>
<BR>
Because the author thoght it would make a better game mechanic. <BR>
 <BR>
>If you wanted to make the argument that the CT Draft does not<BR>
>force 1/6th of all NPC's who fail of enlistment to become<BR>
>Merchants but only forces 1/6th of all PC's who fail of enlistment<BR>
>to become Merchants you might well be correct.<BR>
<BR>
And if I want to make the argument that the CT draft represent forces other<BR>
than a legal draft but still beyond the control of the character which forces<BR>
some PCs to enter careers they didn't chose, then I may well be correct too.<BR>
If you, OTOH, claim that the Imperium has a legal draft that supplies warm<BR>
bodies to Free Traders and crooks[*], then I think you are very, very wrong.<BR>
<BR>
[*] Yes, Others are mainly people of less savory occupation. Check the<BR>
    so-called service skills.<BR>
<BR>
>>Others do not represent a service like the four Imperial<BR>
>>forces, nor do the Merchants.<BR>
> <BR>
>They are referred to as a service in the CT quote below "Each of the six<BR>
>_services_ has a draft number". hence they must be services. <BR>
<BR>
Not at all. Just as the term 'enlistment' for convenience is used for<BR>
civilian careers even though it properly only applies to military forces,<BR>
the term 'service' is, again for convenience, used for two non-service<BR>
occupational niches.<BR>
<BR>
>They may not be military services but they are services. <BR>
<BR>
Peter, do you really not have any trouble with the concept of the Others<BR>
being an actual service?<BR>
<BR>
>Nor are they unitary services but this is also irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
No it isn't.<BR>
<BR>
>Just as a CT Army character could have been in a number of different Armies<BR>
>so could a CT Merchant or Other have been employed by a number of different<BR>
>companies.<BR>
<BR>
Including, in the case of the Merchants, Free Traders. I refuse to believe<BR>
that the Imperium would draft people and assign them to Free Traders. Or<BR>
fledgling lines for that matter. Or interface lines. Or sector-wide lines.<BR>
Mega-corporate lines I could accept, but I don't think it is the case.<BR>
 <BR>
>_Historically_ many oppressive governments have forced their subjects to<BR>
>work in various civilian careers against their will.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but there is not a single scrap of evidence indicating that the<BR>
Imperium does so.<BR>
<BR>
>I would suggest that you are reading too many 20th century sensibilities<BR>
>into things. The fact that drafting people into civilian occupations is<BR>
>illogical and unjust and repressive can not be used as evidence that it<BR>
>does not occur.<BR>
<BR>
>Quitting your job when they don't want you to (12 on the renlistment roll)<BR>
>might then result in having to pay a fine (which might be represented in CT<BR>
>terms as no material benefits roll for the last term for instance) but it<BR>
>should not result in mandatory renlistment.<BR>
<BR>
"RE-ENLISTMENT: Generally, a character is free to leave a career, or to<BR>
remain for another term, depending on personal desires or goals. There <BR>
is some chance that other considerations may force the person out, or keep<BR>
the person in the specific career for another term. Each career has a<BR>
re-enlistment number; in order to undertake a subsequent term of servive,<BR>
a character must throw that number or greater (no DMs allowed). If the throw<BR>
is not made, the individual must leave the career, and character generation<BR>
ends. If the throw is 12 (exactly), then the individual must remain in the<BR>
career for one more term of service." [_Citizens_, p3-4]<BR>
<BR>
>Oh yes, most definitely. I am simply pointing out what the canonical<BR>
>presence of the draft in an Imperium which canonically prohibits slavery<BR>
>says about the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
And I'm simply pointing out that what you _think_ it says about the Imperium<BR>
may actually say a lot more about your interpretation of the very iffy<BR>
evidence you're basing your argument on.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the<BR>
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".<BR>
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2706<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2707<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Canon (Was: Slavery)<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: mammals (was rats)<BR>
H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
RE: Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:54:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A couple of quick questions<BR>
<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
<BR>
>> >Another one!  The Bay Area seems to have become a gathering point for<BR>
>> >Traveller fans, and we have our own, low-volume mailing list for local<BR>
>> >games and issues.  We also tend to investigate bars.  It's research!<BR>
>><BR>
>>     Well, are you looking for a patron, rumor, or a bar fight?<BR>
><BR>
>Having met several of the Bay Area TMLers, I suspect that the proper<BR>
>answer is "Yes." ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>And I would unhesitatingly adventure with any of them.<BR>
<BR>
    So would I, but then again, I do like Penguin Boy.  And, as a local DJ<BR>
says, "I wanna party with you.", so the next time I am in the Bay Area, lets<BR>
get together & run my bastardized version of Traveller, using the ICON<BR>
system from LUG.  (Yes, it is almost done, just playtesting it now with my<BR>
gaming group.)<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 23:57:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com <KenRoney@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just<BR>
>lurk around, but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first<BR>
>came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.<BR>
>Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who antedate us<BR>
>all?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Lets see, before I changed my name to what it is now, I bought my first<BR>
copy of the LBBs from some guy called Marc Miller in Bloomington-Normal, IL,<BR>
as it was only an hours drive away from my home of Decatur, IL.<BR>
    Btw, to Marc & Loren, do you guys miss the burgers, fries, & shakes from<BR>
Steak & Shake as much as I do?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 23:04:50 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >I was suggesting that in doing so they are redefining words to suit their<BR>
> >own needs in a manner that I find hypocritical.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, this is what I take issue with. Unless I'm wrong about the meaning of<BR>
> the word, <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language<BR>
http://www.bartleby.com/61/<BR>
says:<BR>
hypocritical<BR>
ADJECTIVE: 1. Characterized by hypocrisy: "hypocritical praise." <BR>
2. Being a hypocrite: "a hypocritical rogue."<BR>
and defines hypocrisy as:<BR>
NOUN: 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or <BR>
virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. <BR>
An act or instance of such falseness.<BR>
                                             <BR>
> it's only hypocritical if they actually believe that the draft is<BR>
> the equivalent of slavery, yet accept the one while deploring the other. <BR>
<BR>
What I am saying is that the Third Imperium professes not<BR>
to have chattel slavery and professes that slavery is bad<BR>
while they do in reality have slavery (the draft). Thus their<BR>
profession that they disapprove of and do not have slavery <BR>
is hypocritical because it is false and they do in fact have<BR>
slavery.<BR>
<BR>
> If<BR>
> they don't think that this is the case, then they are not being hypocritical<BR>
> regardless of whether they are right or wrong.<BR>
<BR>
Their protestations not to have slavery are hypocritical because<BR>
they do have slavery. The fact that they do not believe they<BR>
have slavery does not make their false beliefs irrelevant. It <BR>
merely demonstrates the extent of their errors.<BR>
<BR>
> >I ignored it because you were attempting to use what you consider to be the<BR>
> >_implausibility_ of a written rule <BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not saying the rule is implausible. I'm saying that your interpretation<BR>
> of it is implausible. There's a big difference.<BR>
<BR>
Yes there is a big difference.<BR>
<BR>
However I do not believe, and am unclear why you believe,<BR>
that quoting the written letter of the game rules as written<BR>
qualifies as _interpreting_ said rules. To me quotation is<BR>
not interpretation it is recitation.<BR>
<BR>
Therefore from my point of view you are saying that the rule<BR>
is implausible because all I see myself as doing is quoting<BR>
the rules.<BR>
<BR>
> >...that appears in all three (CT, MT, and T4) canonical (i.e. not a variant,<BR>
> >even a good variant such as GURPS: Trav) Traveller rules sets featuring the<BR>
> >Third Imperium (not TNE).<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, the draft rule does not appear in _Citizens of the Imperium_.<BR>
> Characters generated according to this canonical CT book are not subject<BR>
> to the draft.<BR>
<BR>
No they are not. This is just another example of why MT<BR>
is superior to CT. When the CT rules were rewritten and<BR>
revised to form the MT rules the lack of a draft reflected in<BR>
'Citizens' was excluded. It is quite possible that said exclusion<BR>
was deliberate.<BR>
<BR>
> >>("Eneri Generi, your draft number being too low to escape the draft, you're<BR>
> >>hereby assigned to the Imperial Starport Custodial Service." Piffle!)<BR>
> > <BR>
> >Say rather:<BR>
> >"Eneri Generi the law states that you must be in school or have a job. As<BR>
> >you do not but are obviously such unworthy scum that the military services<BR>
> >would be better off without your presence you are hereby ordered to work<BR>
> >for the Imperial Starport Custodial Service."<BR>
> >This does not seem implausible to me.<BR>
<BR>
> Repeat that for every occupation the Merchant and Other "service" represents<BR>
> and tell me if you can say that again.<BR>
<BR>
If the Imperium has trillions of inhabitants it probably has<BR>
at least millions of draft boards, draft bureaucrats, draft<BR>
computer programs, draft lotteries, whatever. The idea that<BR>
these millions of sources might assign people to millions or<BR>
even billions of different firms does not trouble me in the<BR>
least.<BR>
<BR>
> >I'd say the presence of the draft suggests the presence of an Imperial law<BR>
> >requiring 18 year olds who are thinking of letting themselves be played as<BR>
> >PC's in the future...<BR>
> <BR>
> I hope you're kidding. As far as the Imperium is concerned there is no such<BR>
> thing as a PC, so how can there be Imperial legislation about any such beings.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I was kidding.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH in a silly Traveller Universe it might be possible for<BR>
the Imperial Draft board to cast the coyns for draftee's much<BR>
as the Droyne do.<BR>
<BR>
> >In the canonical Traveller rules this draft can subject you<BR>
> >to a 1d6 roll with the possible results being:<BR>
> > <BR>
> >Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Merchants, and Other [Trav Bk. p24]<BR>
> <BR>
> None. Try some other occupation until you succesfully enlist. [_Citizens_ p3]<BR>
> <BR>
> >Navy, Marines, Army, Scouts, Flyer, and Sailor [MT PM p 20]<BR>
> <BR>
> Which is another clear indication that the draft is an artifice of the<BR>
> character generation rules rather than a reflection of the game world.<BR>
> Otherwise the rules would have been the same for CT and MT, the two<BR>
> rules sets covering periods very close or even overlapping.<BR>
<BR>
It might also suggest that the Draft is canonical but that the<BR>
MT table is a better representation of the service into which<BR>
Imperial citizens can be drafted.<BR>
<BR>
> "RE-ENLISTMENT: Generally, a character is free to leave a career, or to<BR>
> remain for another term, depending on personal desires or goals. There <BR>
> is some chance that other considerations may force the person out, or keep<BR>
> the person in the specific career for another term." [_Citizens_, p3]<BR>
> <BR>
> In other words, the _game mechanic_ that is _called_ re-enlistment actually<BR>
> represents an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
> formal re-enlistment procedure.<BR>
<BR>
If the procedure was not formal then why do four year terms exist?<BR>
<BR>
> Sure. But a draft does not become slavery just because you say so. So the<BR>
> whole argument is moot. First you have to prove that the draft equals<BR>
> slavery. <BR>
<BR>
I can't prove that it equals it under the Imperial Warrant of<BR>
Restoration. To me it is self evidently true under the US<BR>
Constitution whose 13th Ammendment says: "Neither slavery nor <BR>
involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof <BR>
the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within <BR>
the United States, or in any place subject to their jurisdiction."<BR>
Under this passage involuntary servitude, even if not defined<BR>
as slavery, is forbidden except as a punishment for a crime.<BR>
Therefore (to me) the USA can not have a draft (unless they first<BR>
pass a law that the potential draftees are breaking such as: "It<BR>
shall be a crime not to have be in school or a job." and make the<BR>
draft the punishment for this crime.<BR>
<BR>
> Then you have to prove that the people of the Imperium deep down<BR>
> believes that[*]. <BR>
<BR>
I disagree, see my comments above r/e hypocrisy.<BR>
<BR>
> Then you have to prove that the Imperium actually has a<BR>
> draft. <BR>
<BR>
It is in the rules. If Marc had not wanted it to be part of<BR>
the game when he was writing it it would not be there.<BR>
<BR>
> None of which you have done, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
> [*] Strictly speaking I suppose that you don't have to prove that draft =<BR>
>     slavery. You just have to prove that the Imperial _believe_ that the<BR>
>     draft = slavery. Good luck.<BR>
<BR>
No I don't, if the draft is slavery than the Imperium's false<BR>
belief that they do not have slavery is hypocritical.<BR>
<BR>
> And if I want to make the argument that the CT draft represent forces other<BR>
> than a legal draft but still beyond the control of the character which forces<BR>
> some PCs to enter careers they didn't chose, then I may well be correct too.<BR>
> If you, OTOH, claim that the Imperium has a legal draft that supplies warm<BR>
> bodies to Free Traders and crooks[*], then I think you are very, very wrong.<BR>
> <BR>
> [*] Yes, Others are mainly people of less savory occupation. Check the<BR>
>     so-called service skills.<BR>
<BR>
What's so odd about the notion that the government might<BR>
supply warm bodies to crooks?<BR>
<BR>
It may not be a desirable thing to do but not all governments<BR>
usually do the right thing.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, do you really not have any trouble with the concept of the Others<BR>
> being an actual service?<BR>
<BR>
Not in the slightest. If Marc (or whomever wrote that bit) <BR>
had wanted to call them careers or something similar he could <BR>
have done so. He did not but rather choose to call them services.<BR>
I do not find that choice to be meaningless.<BR>
<BR>
If the Others did not have some commonality than why would<BR>
the career exist. If all others don't have some similarities<BR>
than why do they have the same survival, skill, and mustering out<BR>
rules?<BR>
<BR>
> And I'm simply pointing out that what you _think_ it says about the Imperium<BR>
> may actually say a lot more about your interpretation of the very iffy<BR>
> evidence you're basing your argument on.<BR>
<BR>
The letter of the character generation rules say it exists, I <BR>
do not find it to be iffy.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:50:03 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Canon (Was: Slavery)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn write:<BR>
<BR>
>on 7/1/00 2:57 AM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>I do not think that the draft in the character generation rules makes an<BR>
>>Imperial draft canon any more than the roll for social status makes it<BR>
>>canon that 3% of the population of the Imperium are Imperial nobles (Or<BR>
>>any sort of nobles,  for that matter).<BR>
> <BR>
>Hans, I don't mean to imply that the practice is widespread, just that<BR>
>'canon' allows it.<BR>
<BR>
Sure. I never said that canon ruled out an Imperial draft. I just said that<BR>
the character generation rules did not HAVE to be interpreted to mean that<BR>
one existed. Let me furthermore point out that to my knowledge there is no<BR>
corroberating evidence for an Imperial draft.<BR>
<BR>
>In point of fact, I rarely worry about what is 'canon',<BR>
>and MTU is very 'non-canon'.  This IS a game, right?<BR>
<BR>
I don't worry much about canon in my own campaign either (Except for a vague<BR>
desire that I will not make it impossible for myself to use future published<BR>
adventures). But when I'm arguing about the OTU, I care about the canon.<BR>
Otherwise, what's the point in arguing?<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 04:33:22 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
I've been playing Traveller since 1981.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <KenRoney@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 1:15 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just<BR>
> lurk around, but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first<BR>
> came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.<BR>
> Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who antedate us<BR>
> all?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:45:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
> I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just<BR>
> lurk around,<BR>
<BR>
I spend my time trying to convince the 20-24 year-old sweet young things I<BR>
LARP with that I'm not _that_ old. Unfortunately, when my 18 year-old son<BR>
joins the game they get a bit of a clue.<BR>
<BR>
Ah well, it's probably better that way, otherwise I might get in trouble.<BR>
<BR>
> but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first<BR>
> came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.<BR>
> Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who<BR>
> antedate us all?<BR>
<BR>
I first played Traveller before there were any adventures, I remember the<BR>
release of "The Kinninur" being advertised in White Dwarf (or was it<BR>
Military Modelling? WD might not have been out then). Though it was some<BR>
time later that I managed to get a real copy of the rules.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 22:04:46 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> > Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
> <BR>
> As I understand it, they don't scale up well.<BR>
> <BR>
The limit would appear to be on superconducting magnets and the<BR>
requirement for large amounts of liquid helium (so a trap which can<BR>
store naff-all antiprotons is maybe several cm across but needs to sit<BR>
in a big tank of liquid He (44 gallon drum sized?).<BR>
<BR>
Given LN2 temp. range superconducting magnets, some slack might be<BR>
available.<BR>
<BR>
> > That's how we currently store antimatter (is it worth making anything<BR>
> > else besides antihydrogen?)<BR>
> <BR>
> That's how we store antiprotons. We have no way of storing<BR>
> anti-hydrogen.<BR>
> <BR>
We could store antihydrogen the same way we can store liquid hydrogen or<BR>
hydrogen ice - in laser lattices, or in electromagnetic cages (with the<BR>
help of a little bit of surface charge on your iceball).<BR>
<BR>
ISTR these systems have been used experimentally for hydrogen.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 06:20:58 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:57 PM 7/1/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> Lets see, before I changed my name to what it is now, I bought my first<BR>
>copy of the LBBs from some guy called Marc Miller in Bloomington-Normal, IL,<BR>
>as it was only an hours drive away from my home of Decatur, IL.<BR>
> Btw, to Marc & Loren, do you guys miss the burgers, fries, & shakes from<BR>
>Steak & Shake as much as I do?<BR>
><BR>
> I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
>Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
>ICQ # 8973001<BR>
>legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
Was this before or after you became a Jewish Terrorist/Scottish<BR>
Highlander/Secret Agent?<BR>
<BR>
I bid you Prozac,<BR>
<BR>
Paul Sanders <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:12:14 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: mammals (was rats)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
>>Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>>Poison 'spurs' on the male.  Used in mating times, IIRC. And I thought<BR>
that<BR>
>>>>the platypus was a montreme, and not technically a mammal.<BR>
>>>Monotremes *are* mammals. At least until they revise things again.<BR>
>>>Class: Mammalia<BR>
>>>Subclass: Prototheria<BR>
>>>Order: Monotremata<BR>
>>>Note that "Primates" (Primata) is an order. <BR>
>>>So yes, Platypi are mammals (officially).<BR>
>>No doubt Leonard knows this, but just to be clear: Primates is<BR>
>>not an order within subclass Prototheria.<BR>
>I didn't say that they were. I just said that "primata" is an order.<BR>
<BR>
	I didn't say that you said that they were.  :)<BR>
	I did think that someone might have taken it so, if they were<BR>
	unfamiliar with mammal systematics.  My intent was to clarify,<BR>
	not to correct.  That's why I prefaced it the way that I did.<BR>
<BR>
>>There are three recognized subclasses within class Mammalia<BR>
>The chart I'm working from (copyright 1997) isn't broken down that way.<BR>
>It has just *two* sub-classes to Mammalia: Prototheria, and Theria.<BR>
>With Marsupialia being an *order* under Theria.<BR>
<BR>
	Systemitists and their kin are notorious for differing in details<BR>
	such as this, and for changing things from time to time.  This<BR>
	says more about the uncertain nature of systematics than about<BR>
	systemitists.<BR>
<BR>
>>Proboscidia (elephants)<BR>
>Proboscidea on my chart.<BR>
>>Cetatea (whales, dolphins, and porpoises)<BR>
>Cetacea on my chart<BR>
<BR>
	Oops.  Quite right.  Spelling has never been my strong suit.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:10:13 -0500<BR>
From: "shimmer" <dragon@mhtc.net><BR>
Subject: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
<BR>
have you considered a way to switch back to the sector view after editing a<BR>
UWP and canceling the generation of the system without having to reload the<BR>
sector?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 07:29:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
on 7/1/00 8:01 PM, OMENSIGIL@aol.com at OMENSIGIL@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Son of Heaven"...no.  The bureaucracy..."section 9" loosely controls the<BR>
> sub-sector...I haven't created entire sectors yet...and the players wouldnt<BR>
> likely explore them all anyway....  Section 9 and only a few businesses have<BR>
> tightly controlled the spread of imperium information to keep control of the<BR>
> populace and noone other than them(in theory) has any reliable charts and its<BR>
> illegal to "go exploring" without their say so....imperium isnt on the<BR>
> agenda...at least for the current storyline.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> its kinda nice to have people "challenge" me on story, rules...etc..with<BR>
> questions, statements, whatever...thanks<BR>
> Dan<BR>
> omensigil<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  Section 9, eh.  Have you seen the not about section 9 at<BR>
http://solsec.org?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 07:36:07 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/2/00 1:33 AM, J-Man at j-man@iname.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been playing Traveller since 1981.<BR>
> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
I have been playing since 1977.  I have recently been informed by someone on<BR>
the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in use to<BR>
this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body pistol is<BR>
3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently published.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 07:39:24 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
> I have been playing since 1977.  I have recently been informed by someone on<BR>
> the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in use to<BR>
> this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body pistol is<BR>
> 3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently published.<BR>
Excuse me.  That's 3D-8.  Keybord hyphen is not working.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:37:38 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
><BR>
>Oh yes, most definitely. I am simply pointing out what the<BR>
>canonical presence of the draft in an Imperium which canonically<BR>
>prohibits slavery says about the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium *doesn't* prohibit slavery.  It prohibits "chattel<BR>
slavery".  Please, if you want to be totally literal-minded on the<BR>
canon existence of a draft for the "Other" career, surely you should<BR>
be equally literal-minded on the Imperial law on slavery?  A chattel<BR>
slave is a sophont treated as an item of property, that can be freely<BR>
bought and sold by the owner.  There is nothing in the Imperial<BR>
constitution that forbids any other form of slavery, as long as the<BR>
slave in question is "non-transferrable"...<BR>
<BR>
As an aside, are there any plans for a GURPS supplement on the<BR>
"Imperial Others Service"?  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:39:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2000 12:35 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Re : Antimatter<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
><BR>
> As I understand it, they don't scale up well.<BR>
><BR>
> > That's how we currently store antimatter (is it worth making anything<BR>
> > else besides antihydrogen?)<BR>
><BR>
> That's how we store antiprotons. We have no way of storing<BR>
> anti-hydrogen.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Last time I checked "ordinary hydrogen" was just a proton with a single<BR>
electron. So the H+ ion is just a proton. Would not that mean that an<BR>
anti-proton is an anti-hydrogen ion with a negative charge ie H- and<BR>
anti-hydrogen would consist of an anti-proton with a single anti-electron<BR>
(positron). What particles are produced when a proton and anti-proton<BR>
collide I don't know, not doubt someone on the list could enlighten us.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 10:43:10 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 07/02/00 at 07:36 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>on 7/2/00 1:33 AM, J-Man at j-man@iname.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I've been playing Traveller since 1981.<BR>
>> ___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
>I have been playing since 1977.  <BR>
<BR>
Same here, coming up on 23 years now.<BR>
<BR>
>I have recently been informed by someone<BR>
>on the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in<BR>
>use to this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body<BR>
>pistol is 3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently<BR>
>published.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, that came as a shock.  I had to pull my LBB's out and<BR>
check...sure enough, the weapons had + and - modifiers and the BBB<BR>
(and T4) doesn't.  BTW, I'm writing BBB for the recently published<BR>
Big Black Book, I'm sure you mean the same book, but what does BFB<BR>
stand for?<BR>
<BR>
I asked a question when this first came up that nobody answered, and<BR>
it wasn't facious or rhetorical (as they sometimes are)...I really<BR>
wanted to know, so I'll ask it again.<BR>
<BR>
In Traveller (other than TNE or GT), each die of damage is applied<BR>
separately, except on the first injury.  So, if you have a weapon<BR>
that does 3d, and you rolled 2,4,1, you would apply 2 to one<BR>
characteristic, 4 to another and 1 to a third, and if it were the<BR>
first injury of a fight you would apply all 7 point to a single<BR>
characteristic. That's clear.<BR>
<BR>
However, if you have a weapon listing of 2d+2 or 3d-8 that throws<BR>
the rules for application of damage into the toliet.  For the +2<BR>
modifier you *could* say it is 1d, 1d, 2 and use it as normal, but<BR>
I'm totally at a loss as to how you were supposed to apply the -8<BR>
modifier.  I know how *I* did it for all the years that I used CT, I<BR>
changed the rules.  <g> <BR>
<BR>
My question is how did others handle the negative modifier, and more<BR>
to the point how was it *supposed* to be handled?<BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    The Heretic<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:00:12 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
>Also, who besides Doug bears the title of "TML Great Old One"?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on where you set the bar for "Great" and "Old One".<BR>
<BR>
The toughest criteria (been on the list from before the MPGN days, and been <BR>
published) mean there are only a handful at most. Losening the published <BR>
requirement to include "great service to the Traveller community" adds to the <BR>
list. Losening the age requirement and going by posting density actually <BR>
*shrinks* the group, since Doug is only the most recent generation of <BR>
TML-GOO, and some of Traveller's greatest contributors are not big posters <BR>
here...<BR>
<BR>
 Others (that y'all may not even recognize) include, IMHO, Rob Dean, Paul <BR>
Sanders, the original list-admin whose exact name escapes me, Mark Cook and <BR>
the rest of the old PBEM admins, Mike Metlay, and others I'm sure I'm <BR>
forgetting...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 12:57:29 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:15 AM 07/02/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just<BR>
>lurk around, but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first<BR>
>came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.<BR>
>Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who antedate us<BR>
>all?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect there are a number of TMLers who started with the LBBs back in <BR>
1977 (I did...).  Time-coincident with Star Wars as it was and (originally, <BR>
at least) having little/no Imperium background, many campaigns got off the <BR>
ground with a wing-nut sort of Star Wars feel...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2707<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2708</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/2/00 5:42:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 2 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2708<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2707<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: HG squadron<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Re : Antimatter<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
Re: Mapping<BR>
Lucan and Leyna Tirenthe:  Lucan's Foreknowledge of Dulinor's assassination plot<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
HEY SWORDY - DOWNPORT DOWN<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 09:43:31<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:15 AM 7/2/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" since I mainly just <BR>
>lurk around, but I got my feet wet with Double Adventure One when it first <BR>
>came out in 78 or 79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.  <BR>
>Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark who antedate us <BR>
>all?<BR>
<BR>
Craig and I both date from '77.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, Craig has been way too busy to follow the TML, but his daughter Lenore<BR>
just turned ten, and got a copy of GURPS and G:Traveller for her birthday.<BR>
The wheel turns again...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:08:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2707<BR>
<BR>
>have you considered a way to switch back to the sector view after editing a<BR>
>UWP and canceling the generation of the system without having to reload the<BR>
>sector?<BR>
<BR>
Yes, simply press the 'Select UWP' button. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:35:03 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
Eris writes:<BR>
>>I have been playing since 1977.  <BR>
>Same here, coming up on 23 years now.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm just a newcomer: been playing since 1981.  :)<BR>
<BR>
>>I have recently been informed by someone<BR>
>>on the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in<BR>
>>use to this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body<BR>
>>pistol is 3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently<BR>
>>published.<BR>
>Yeah, that came as a shock.<BR>
<BR>
	Me too!  I had got hints from the TML that there might have been<BR>
	changes, but I was never sure.  I think that simplifying the damage<BR>
	rolls was a good idea, but I prefer more difference among the low-<BR>
	damage weapons than is found in the BFB (e.g. I use 2D-1 for Dagger<BR>
	and Body Pistol).<BR>
<BR>
>I had to pull my LBB's out and<BR>
>check...sure enough, the weapons had + and - modifiers and the BBB<BR>
>(and T4) doesn't.  BTW, I'm writing BBB for the recently published<BR>
>Big Black Book, I'm sure you mean the same book,<BR>
<BR>
	A friend had the BBB, but I hadn't read much of it.<BR>
<BR>
>but what does BFB<BR>
>stand for?<BR>
<BR>
	Big Floppy Book, I presume.  The Classic Traveller Reprints.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>In Traveller (other than TNE or GT), each die of damage is applied<BR>
>separately, except on the first injury.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>However, if you have a weapon listing of 2d+2 or 3d-8 that throws<BR>
>the rules for application of damage into the toliet.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I know how *I* did it for all the years that I used CT, I<BR>
>changed the rules.  <g> <BR>
>My question is how did others handle the negative modifier, and more<BR>
>to the point how was it *supposed* to be handled?<BR>
<BR>
	I never much liked treating the first injury and following<BR>
	injuries differently, so I just put all damage from a hit on<BR>
	a single stat (until that stat is 0, of course).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:58:21 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: HG squadron<BR>
<BR>
Sir, I am in need of your services if you have the time and/or the desire to <BR>
help a fellow gamer. <BR>
<BR>
I am in the process of trying to organize a Classic Traveller/GURPS Traveller <BR>
pbem campaign with a decidedly military bend. I am considering using straight <BR>
Classic Traveller versus GURPS for this project. After all it is a strategic <BR>
pbem focusing on large scale military actions versus adventurer oriented <BR>
firefights. <BR>
<BR>
My problem. I am setting up a war between the Sword Worlds and the Darrians <BR>
in 1120 with possible Imperial or Zhodani intervention. I need large numbers <BR>
of ships for the various navies. If you are experimenting with a program I <BR>
would greatly appreciate your assistance in generating HG style ship USPs. I <BR>
would need all sorts of classes for all the major navies. Interested? <BR>
<BR>
Any other reader with knowledge of a HG Windows 95 based construction program <BR>
or having an inventory of HG style ship USP's please send me an email too. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 14:52:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>To me it is self evidently true under the US<BR>
Constitution whose 13th Ammendment says: "Neither slavery nor<BR>
involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof<BR>
the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within<BR>
the United States, or in any place subject to their jurisdiction."<BR>
Under this passage involuntary servitude, even if not defined<BR>
as slavery, is forbidden except as a punishment for a crime.<BR>
Therefore (to me) the USA can not have a draft (unless they first<BR>
pass a law that the potential draftees are breaking such as: "It<BR>
shall be a crime not to have be in school or a job." and make the<BR>
draft the punishment for this crime.<<BR>
<BR>
But only if the draft has been legally found to be such.<BR>
It hasn't and thus the draft is neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in<BR>
the legal sense and only in self evident sense to people of a particular<BR>
political disposition. The question becomes, who's set of political beliefs<BR>
becomes the default for determining what is what in a legal sense? There are<BR>
people who find democracy (or even representative republicanism) to be a<BR>
perverse offense against the natural order.  And what about the various<BR>
local governments of the 3I, especially the religious dictatorships, that<BR>
find some aspect or other of Imperial law to be obscene. I doubt the 3I will<BR>
enact prohibition because the Pysadian Church thinks it should and does so<BR>
on their planet.<BR>
<BR>
As for the Draft in the 3I, I think there is one. I think it is<BR>
semi-universal, especially in regards to CT. That is, on a roll of 1-3 or 5<BR>
you are drafted into the Army, Navy, Marines or Scouts, on a 4 you manage to<BR>
sign on with a corporation (from independent free trader to Megacorporation)<BR>
on a 6 you elude the Draft and wind up in some criminal activity or other.<BR>
Later editions modified this in one way or other, mostly geared toward<BR>
making it a purely military draft. Given that even today someone turned down<BR>
for one service can always walk 5' and apply for the next one, obviously it<BR>
is not modeled perfectly or totally on the current (last 3 decades) U.S.<BR>
situation.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:25:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
On 07/02/00 at 01:35 PM,  Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>However, if you have a weapon listing of 2d+2 or 3d-8 that throws<BR>
>>the rules for application of damage into the toliet.<BR>
><snipped><BR>
>>I know how *I* did it for all the years that I used CT, I<BR>
>>changed the rules.  <g> <BR>
>>My question is how did others handle the negative modifier, and more<BR>
>>to the point how was it *supposed* to be handled?<BR>
<BR>
>	I never much liked treating the first injury and following<BR>
>	injuries differently, so I just put all damage from a hit on<BR>
>	a single stat (until that stat is 0, of course).<BR>
<BR>
That's how I had changed the rules.  <g> <BR>
<BR>
You added up the dice plus modifier and applied it to one<BR>
characteristic each time, not just the first.  On the first injury<BR>
the characteristic affected was randomly picked, on subsequent<BR>
injuries the PC could pick which one characteristic to reduce.  If a<BR>
characteristic went to 0, the PC got to pick which one took the<BR>
remaining points.  One characteristic at 0 meant the character<BR>
*might* become unconscious and they would continue losing points<BR>
until "treated"; two meant they were unconscious, seriously wounded,<BR>
and points would continue to come off until they were "stablized";<BR>
three meant they were unconscious and mortally wounded (points from<BR>
INT started coming off until they were "stablized"); and if there<BR>
were still points to be taken off they came directly from INT.  If<BR>
INT ever got to 0 the character was irrevocably dead.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:17:28 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> The Imperium *doesn't* prohibit slavery.  It prohibits "chattel<BR>
> slavery".  Please, if you want to be totally literal-minded on the<BR>
> canon existence of a draft for the "Other" career, surely you should<BR>
> be equally literal-minded on the Imperial law on slavery?  <BR>
<BR>
Only in CT not in MT or T4.<BR>
<BR>
> A chattel<BR>
> slave is a sophont treated as an item of property, that can be freely<BR>
> bought and sold by the owner.  There is nothing in the Imperial<BR>
> constitution that forbids any other form of slavery, as long as the<BR>
> slave in question is "non-transferrable"...<BR>
<BR>
But Draftees are transferable. A character who is drafted into<BR>
the Merchant Service can, using the Merchant Advanced Character<BR>
Generation System be transferred between mega corporations,<BR>
sector-wide, subsector-wide, interface, fledgling, and free traders.<BR>
After being transferred these characters are still subject to<BR>
mandatory renlistment (on a roll of twelve) and hence are<BR>
not free thus draftee slaves are transferable. This is chattel<BR>
slavery.<BR>
<BR>
If you were to choose to believe that under Imperial Law draftee <BR>
slaves are only transferable between corporations and that <BR>
under Imperial law being owned by a corporation does not qualify <BR>
as chattel slavery. If portions of the Imperial government are<BR>
considered to have this same legal right, as the Vilani mega corporations<BR>
did in the First Imperium where they where part of the government,<BR>
then this might explain why the Imperium has a draft. If being<BR>
owned by a company or government agency is not chattel slavery<BR>
under Imperial law than the Imperium can purport to disallow chattel<BR>
slavery while still having a draft and mandatory renlistment.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 13:48:44 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/2/00 8:43 AM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have recently been informed by someone<BR>
>> on the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in<BR>
>> use to this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body<BR>
>> pistol is 3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently<BR>
>> published.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, that came as a shock.  I had to pull my LBB's out and<BR>
> check...sure enough, the weapons had + and - modifiers and the BBB<BR>
> (and T4) doesn't.  BTW, I'm writing BBB for the recently published<BR>
> Big Black Book, I'm sure you mean the same book, but what does BFB<BR>
> stand for?<BR>
<BR>
Big Floppy Book<BR>
> <BR>
> I asked a question when this first came up that nobody answered, and<BR>
> it wasn't facious or rhetorical (as they sometimes are)...I really<BR>
> wanted to know, so I'll ask it again.<BR>
> <BR>
> In Traveller (other than TNE or GT), each die of damage is applied<BR>
> separately, except on the first injury.  So, if you have a weapon<BR>
> that does 3d, and you rolled 2,4,1, you would apply 2 to one<BR>
> characteristic, 4 to another and 1 to a third, and if it were the<BR>
> first injury of a fight you would apply all 7 point to a single<BR>
> characteristic. That's clear.<BR>
> <BR>
> However, if you have a weapon listing of 2d+2 or 3d-8 that throws<BR>
> the rules for application of damage into the toliet.  For the +2<BR>
> modifier you *could* say it is 1d, 1d, 2 and use it as normal, but<BR>
> I'm totally at a loss as to how you were supposed to apply the -8<BR>
> modifier.  I know how *I* did it for all the years that I used CT, I<BR>
> changed the rules.  <g><BR>
> <BR>
> My question is how did others handle the negative modifier, and more<BR>
> to the point how was it *supposed* to be handled?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris,<BR>
> The Heretic<BR>
<BR>
Good question.  Usually, I apply the DM to one die of the roll.  No one in<BR>
my group uses either the carbine or body pistol, which have the big DMs.<BR>
Given the paucity of the damage, I'd be inclined to just assign all the<BR>
damage to 1 stat (with the DM applied) unless there were some specific<BR>
reason not two (e.g. the character is so badly injured he needs to be a be<BR>
to spread the 2 point he just took from the snub pistol.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure why Marc decided to get rid of the damage DM.  Now a body<BR>
pistol and rifle do equivalent damage, which I think is erroneous.  I've<BR>
done an pretty thorough analysis of die roll probabilities, and gave decided<BR>
to stick with damage DMs for now.<BR>
<BR>
I am considering the T4 combat system, however, as I really dislike the way<BR>
armor is treated in CT.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:41:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Antimatter<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>>> Penning traps, anyone?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> As I understand it, they don't scale up well.<BR>
>> <BR>
> The limit would appear to be on superconducting magnets and the<BR>
> requirement for large amounts of liquid helium (so a trap which can<BR>
> store naff-all antiprotons is maybe several cm across but needs to sit<BR>
> in a big tank of liquid He (44 gallon drum sized?).<BR>
><BR>
> Given LN2 temp. range superconducting magnets, some slack might be<BR>
> available.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget that you need *stronger* magnets as the amount stored goes<BR>
up. That's because the larger the group of antiprotons, the stronger<BR>
the mutual repulsion. <BR>
<BR>
But the main problem is that Penning traps store particles at a very<BR>
low density. Too low for most of the things we'd like to use<BR>
anti-matter for.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:32:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Oh yes, most definitely. I am simply pointing out what the<BR>
>>canonical presence of the draft in an Imperium which canonically<BR>
>>prohibits slavery says about the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
> The Imperium *doesn't* prohibit slavery.  It prohibits "chattel<BR>
> slavery".  Please, if you want to be totally literal-minded on the<BR>
> canon existence of a draft for the "Other" career, surely you should<BR>
> be equally literal-minded on the Imperial law on slavery?  A chattel<BR>
> slave is a sophont treated as an item of property, that can be freely<BR>
> bought and sold by the owner.  There is nothing in the Imperial<BR>
> constitution that forbids any other form of slavery, as long as the<BR>
> slave in question is "non-transferrable"...<BR>
<BR>
Even "transferable" slaves can be legit. If you have an indentured<BR>
servant, you can sell his *contract* to someone else (unless the<BR>
contract says you can't). But the servant isn't property, merely an<BR>
employee who can't quit (or more often, can't quit until a certain<BR>
period of time has elapsed, or he's paid back some amount of money)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:25:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/2/00 12:17 PM, Peter Newman at pnewman@gci.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> But Draftees are transferable. A character who is drafted into<BR>
> the Merchant Service can, using the Merchant Advanced Character<BR>
> Generation System be transferred between mega corporations,<BR>
> sector-wide, subsector-wide, interface, fledgling, and free traders.<BR>
> After being transferred these characters are still subject to<BR>
> mandatory renlistment (on a roll of twelve) and hence are<BR>
> not free thus draftee slaves are transferable. This is chattel<BR>
> slavery.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I've avoided this argument so far, but we seem to be going, as the<BR>
saying goes 'from the sublime to the ridiculous', or if you prefer, arguing<BR>
'reductio ad absurdem'.  Does anyone perceive the mandatory re-enlistment<BR>
rolls and 'draft' into other services as anything other than a game artifice<BR>
besides PN?  I doubt it.<BR>
<BR>
And since some are concerned about the canonical nature of slavery and the<BR>
draft, I suggest we have Marc put on his robes and speak 'ex cathedra' on<BR>
this matter.  And once he has given his opinion, those who claim to follow<BR>
the 'canon', but stray from the word, can be burned as heretics.<BR>
<BR>
As I have said before, the draft is not slavery.  You can claim exception<BR>
(CO), choose jail, flee the country, or renounce citizenship. In Traveller,<BR>
you can choose to ingnore or alter rules, etc. as you see fit.<BR>
<BR>
Note to LKW--Thank you for continuously reminding us in  GT "These rules are<BR>
only a guide..." etc.  Apparently some need to be reminded.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who disagrees with me, I challenge to a duel.  In keeping with the<BR>
banality of the whole argument, I suggest 'sacks of dung at 10 paces' as the<BR>
appropriate weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Peter.  I enjoy many of your posts, but I think you have gone 'right<BR>
off your nut' on this one.  Perhaps you should just preface this whole line<BR>
of argument with 'IMTU' like the rest of us do with our own<BR>
interpretations/variations of the game.  Or perhaps we should all<BR>
acknowledge an new Trav variant: PNT, to go with CT, MT, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is only a game.  A very good one IMHO, but IT'S ONLY A GAME! It is<BR>
supposed to be fun.  Apologies in advance to those in the profession, but<BR>
this is sounding like Traveller: The Lawyer version.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "entering non-rant mode" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:55:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
At 02:25 PM 7/2/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry, Peter.  I enjoy many of your posts, but I think you have gone 'right<BR>
>off your nut' on this one.  Perhaps you should just preface this whole line<BR>
>of argument with 'IMTU' like the rest of us do with our own<BR>
>interpretations/variations of the game.  Or perhaps we should all<BR>
>acknowledge an new Trav variant: PNT, to go with CT, MT, etc.<BR>
<BR>
You're fairly new here Tod, Peter is like this.  He has the most<BR>
spectacular ability to not get the point of rules, and reads rules with a<BR>
literal interpetation that would make an Evangelical Penetecostal minister<BR>
proud.<BR>
<BR>
Arguing with him is pointless, he's been told he's wrong by the authors of<BR>
the works in question, and still stuck to his guns.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:10:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/2/00 2:55 PM, gridlore@pop.mindspring.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Arguing with him is pointless, he's been told he's wrong by the authors of<BR>
> the works in question, and still stuck to his guns.<BR>
<BR>
Only if your goal is to change his mind. Perverse fellow that I am, I enjoy<BR>
reading his posts and those in response. If I ever needed a playtester, I<BR>
would choose him as it would be a serious trial by fire. Every jot and<BR>
tittle would be dissected.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 15:21:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I am fiddling with my update to my site and would like to see if anyone<BR>
can help with my understanding of GT's climate rules in relationship to<BR>
their icosahedronic projection. I have a beta version of my mapping page<BR>
uploaded, and it has links to the pertinent images for those with limited<BR>
browsing capabilities like Leonard. It is at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:44:44 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Lucan and Leyna Tirenthe:  Lucan's Foreknowledge of Dulinor's assassination plot<BR>
<BR>
I was just reading an intersting article in CHALLENGE #43:<BR>
<BR>
"Leyna Tirenthe"<BR>
<BR>
According to the article, Leyna she "has been, since the tender age of 14<BR>
standard, one of the brightest stars of stage and screen in the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
Aside from being very interesting in general terms, the last paragraph of<BR>
the article says the follwoing:<BR>
<BR>
"An inspection of Leyna's belongings will uncover an audio disk.  On it is a<BR>
conevrsation between Lucan and Leyna in which he exposes his prior knowledge<BR>
of Dulinor's plot against Strephon."<BR>
<BR>
The article takes place 242-1116, 1110 days after Strephon was assassinated.<BR>
<BR>
Has this been discussed on the list?  If so, does it hold canonical status<BR>
because it appeared in CHALLENGE?<BR>
<BR>
The article was written by Christopher S. Willoughby and is an excellent<BR>
work.  It also discloses the name of one of Norris' "istant relatives -Lady<BR>
Elenais" whom Leyna Tirenthe is masquerading as.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 00:34:37 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
At 12:56 -0400 2/7/00, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> Others (that y'all may not even recognize) include, IMHO, Rob Dean, Paul<BR>
>Sanders, the original list-admin whose exact name escapes me, Mark Cook and<BR>
>the rest of the old PBEM admins, Mike Metlay, and others I'm sure I'm<BR>
>forgetting...<BR>
<BR>
Personally I'd add a few others in for more recent service (top of my <BR>
head.... and not necessarily published):<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Macintosh<BR>
Dave Golden (currently off TML)<BR>
Roderick Darroch Elliot (Famille Spofulam)<BR>
Wildstar<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen<BR>
<BR>
and<BR>
Eris (just because).<BR>
<BR>
Dom (brainstorming far too late at night)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 00:24:15 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 1:50 -0400 2/7/00, John Groth <wombat@premier.net> wrote:<BR>
>Speaking of notorious TMLers, whatever _did_ happen to Kenji?<BR>
><BR>
>Also, who besides Doug bears the title of "TML Great Old One"?<BR>
<BR>
Loren was discussing the GOO epitaph on JTAS last week. It all came <BR>
about when we did the Grandfather as part of the Cthulhu Mythos <BR>
thread. Doug, as you are an official GOO, can you summarise the <BR>
thread for newcomers? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 23:49:33 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
At 21:13 -0400 30/6/00,  Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au> wrote:<BR>
>I've just started my jump into the traveller universe, Is there a site<BR>
>anywhere that has planetary information like history of differing planets,<BR>
>houses that kind of thing?<BR>
<BR>
Look at Hyphen's Library Data site - I can't remember the direct URL <BR>
but go to http://www.bits.org.uk/ then to the Jumpsites page, and it <BR>
is linked (may be called Tavonni or Beowulf Down). The Missouri <BR>
archive (also linked) has a lot of useful information too. Another <BR>
good source is at the HIWG site (if I remember correctly) which has <BR>
an essay called 'a concise history of the Imperium'. Bryan Borich may <BR>
correct me on the location of that file :-/<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Traveller has a useful library data section too.<BR>
<BR>
Welcome aboard!<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:07:43 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:56:21 -0400 (EDT),<BR>
stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>>Oh yes, most definitely. I am simply pointing out what the<BR>
>>canonical presence of the draft in an Imperium which canonically<BR>
>>prohibits slavery says about the Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
>The Imperium *doesn't* prohibit slavery.  It prohibits "chattel<BR>
>slavery".  Please, if you want to be totally literal-minded on the<BR>
>canon existence of a draft for the "Other" career, surely you should<BR>
>be equally literal-minded on the Imperial law on slavery?  A chattel<BR>
>slave is a sophont treated as an item of property, that can be freely<BR>
>bought and sold by the owner.  There is nothing in the Imperial<BR>
>constitution that forbids any other form of slavery, as long as the<BR>
>slave in question is "non-transferrable"...<BR>
<BR>
There isn't even that restriction (non-transferable); an<BR>
indenture, which could easily be argued as being slavery, may be<BR>
transferrable under the law of certain worlds - as if it were a<BR>
reassignment of a contract.  On other worlds, maybe it isn't - or<BR>
maybe the indentee has the right to veto any such transfer.  The<BR>
key is the "property" aspect - property has no rights whatsoever;<BR>
a slave other than a chattel slave has enforceable rights,<BR>
whether those rights are as little as manumission upon repayment<BR>
of debt, or as much as the right to sue for release and financial<BR>
or other redress for failure to engage in humane treatment as<BR>
defined by law.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 20:28:24 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: HEY SWORDY - DOWNPORT DOWN<BR>
<BR>
Swordy - get me via private mail if you need to; I tried to<BR>
update Freelance Traveller, and couldn't reach it with either a<BR>
web browser or a FTP client.  This was at about 20:00 EDT Sunday<BR>
2 Jul 00.  I can't announce an update until I post it; I can't<BR>
post it if I can't connect to the server!<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 10:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Aimed fire is going to tend to concentrated on more "noticeable"<BR>
> figures in the opposing "line", so less noticeable folks won't get<BR>
> aimed at, at all.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why most sensible grunts avoid being too close to the section <BR>
commander, radio operator or machine gunner.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
On 1 Jul 00, at 11:18, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  I figure that CT exagerates the effectiveness of blade weapons, and<BR>
>  that's fine with me.  However, in CT the broadsword is certainly<BR>
>  not the best weapon to use at Short range and it is nowhere near<BR>
>  the best at Close.  For example, some rolls to hit:<BR>
> <BR>
>    Close			Short			damage<BR>
>    None	Cloth	Battle	None	Cloth	Battle<BR>
>  Broadsword	11+	16+	20+	0+	5+	9+	4D<BR>
>  Gauss Rifle	5+	9+	12+	0+	4+	7+	4D<BR>
>  Laser Rifle	9+	10+	18+	3+	4+	12+	5D<BR>
> <BR>
>  Plus gauss weapons can hit the target more than once (and can attack<BR>
>  adjascent targets), and both gauss and laser weapons can engage the<BR>
>  target before they get to sword range, and there is no End limit for<BR>
>  the latter weapons.  That being said, a Conan type with a broadsword<BR>
>  might give the CT PCs some trouble in tight quarters.<BR>
<BR>
Gauss rifles are, in general, horribly unbalancing, and about the worst <BR>
feature of Book 4. As for laser rifles, well they're great for sniping, <BR>
but IIRC they're very delicate, so I wouldn't want to be using one that <BR>
close. It just gives the ref an excuse to trash a very expensive piece <BR>
of kit.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 21:52, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And cows are nice, placid animals...<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah, right. Tell that to the Jersey who tried to gore me when I had to<BR>
> carry her newborn calf up to the barn...<BR>
<BR>
Well you had to go and do that with one of the most aggresive breeds, <BR>
didn't you?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2708<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2709</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, July 3 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2709<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Roc: Juries<BR>
Roc: More Jury<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Getting away with murder (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
Privacy (was re: risk perception)<BR>
RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
OT (was RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?))<BR>
OT: Jury Nullification (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 11:28, Ken Hagler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/30/2000 11:29 AM, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the drug<BR>
> > laws. Which could get you into the same bind.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's true. I was called for jury duty a couple years ago, and after<BR>
> reading the charge ("possession of a glass pipe," believe it or not), the<BR>
> judge said that it was a drug case and asked if anybody had a problem with<BR>
> that. I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
> was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
<BR>
They're now illegal here, too. Along with every other kind of pipe <BR>
(actually I think you just can't sell them). You this is going to stop <BR>
all that nasty smoking of dope in pipes. Considering that I know of <BR>
nobody that smokes pot in a pipe that won't smoke it as a joint if they <BR>
don't have their pipe handy I imagine this law will be a great success.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 30 Jun 00, at 1:00, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The sound of an AK being cycled is quite ominous (beats the hell out of an<BR>
> AR15/M-16.  My personal favorite is the Lahti anti-tank rifle.  A friend<BR>
> used to take his to the gun show and put it on his table to attract<BR>
> attention (he sold survival gear).  The bolt has a LOT of travel.  You<BR>
> crank it back.  He usually kept the action open, a range habit.  On one<BR>
> occasion, someone was looking at it a little too closely and released the<BR>
> bolt.  It rocketed close with an incredible sound that is difficult to<BR>
> surprise.  Just about everyone in the place stopped and turned toward the<BR>
> sound.  And most of these people were gun types and not unfamiliar with<BR>
> action noise.  But, I mean this sound was awesome! One could imagine a<BR>
> weapon so powerful, that if you were shot, your whole family would feel<BR>
> it.<BR>
<BR>
I always liked the G3's sound. Slap! You almost want hearing protection <BR>
for it. The big downside is trying to cock the damn thing quietly. I <BR>
believe the Norwegen version has ridgeing on the bolt carrier so you <BR>
can quietly push it home with your thumb to avoid this.<BR>
 <BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:39:15 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Stopping power (long)<BR>
<BR>
On 29 Jun 00, at 23:36, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I like the old M-16, but probably because my recent shooting experience<BR>
> come my Olympic Arms Ultramatch, which will shoot 1/4" groups at 100 yards<BR>
> all day long.  My main bitch with the AKs?  Given that they are probably<BR>
> the most reliable and rugged rifles ever built, the sights suck, the<BR>
> trigger sucks, the length of pull is too short for me (at 5'10" !), the<BR>
> safety is in the wrong place and too noisy, the human engineering is awful<BR>
> and the damn things shoot something like a 5" group at 100 yards.  Other<BR>
> than that, they're great.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with all your points, and would note that you left one off - <BR>
the pistol grip's too small. I'd like to note that the safety's not <BR>
placed so badly if, like me, you're a lefty. If I were interested in <BR>
accuracy (and therefore probably long-range shooting) I'd like my opld <BR>
Garand back, as it'd do under 1" at 100 yards (with a scope, I could <BR>
only get about 1.5" with the issue sights). However the context seemed <BR>
to be battelfield firepower, and for that an AK or derivitive seems <BR>
best to me. They're light, have good stopping power and they don't <BR>
break.<BR>
<BR>
> For an AK design, I'd much rather take a Valmet, Galil or my favorite AK<BR>
> derivative, FNC.  If I had an ammo bearer, yeah, LMG.  Personally, I've<BR>
> always liked the Amelli MG-82.  A 5.56mm MG-42 look-alike that weighs a<BR>
> little more than an M-16, is only slightly longer, and has a dual-speed<BR>
> buffer.  If you aim before firing, 1200 round a minute really wipes out a<BR>
> target.  I would be very happy with a minimi or ultimax. > <BR>
<BR>
I'm a fan of the Minimi, but could well just be because that's what I <BR>
carried in the NZ Army. Neat guns, and reliable, too (but I recommend <BR>
against using M16 mags in them unless you've no choice).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 19:44:20 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
On 07/03/00 at 12:34 AM,  SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 12:56 -0400 2/7/00, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>> Others (that y'all may not even recognize) include, IMHO, Rob Dean, Paul<BR>
>>Sanders, the original list-admin whose exact name escapes me, Mark Cook and<BR>
>>the rest of the old PBEM admins, Mike Metlay, and others I'm sure I'm<BR>
>>forgetting...<BR>
<BR>
>Personally I'd add a few others in for more recent service (top of my <BR>
>head.... and not necessarily published):<BR>
<BR>
>Bruce Macintosh<BR>
>Dave Golden (currently off TML)<BR>
>Roderick Darroch Elliot (Famille Spofulam)<BR>
>Wildstar<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen<BR>
<BR>
>and<BR>
>Eris (just because).<BR>
<BR>
Why? You need a token heretic? ;-p<BR>
<BR>
>Dom (brainstorming far too late at night)<BR>
<BR>
While you're at it add Dom. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:52:22 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Juries<BR>
<BR>
 >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
 ><BR>
 >I give an example of this from a documentary I remember seeing.  the<BR>
 >facts may be munged, but the gist is accurate (this is arguably a<BR>
 >good reason for juries, depending on your point of view).<BR>
 ><BR>
 >A scumbag is arrested for molesting a young teenage boy.  The father<BR>
 >waits for the day when the molester is being taken to court and lies<BR>
 >in wait for him.  As the officers are escorting him to court, the<BR>
 >father, while being filmed in the act, guns down the man who<BR>
 >molested his son.<BR>
 ><BR>
 >Subsequently, the father is charged with murder and brought to<BR>
 >trial.  The facts are incontrovertable.  Yet the jury decides that<BR>
 >the man is 'not guilty' despite the instructions of the judge. "If<BR>
 >you find that the events as presented by the prosecution are true,<BR>
 >etc...then you must find the defendant guilty" (not true).  Juries<BR>
 >has the power to ignore all the evidence if they choose.  I suppose<BR>
 >some would consider this 'justice' as opposed to 'law'.  I'm not<BR>
 >sure I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
Providing the bloke actually did molest the teen, otherwise, dad's a<BR>
murderer and should have been dealt with to the full extent of the law.  I<BR>
served on a jury where the bloke was obviously guilty of unlawfully taking<BR>
the law into his own hands - WRONGFULLY!  His victim was crippled after the<BR>
assault, then the bloke discovered he was wrong, the victim didn't attack<BR>
the bloke's wife at all.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:58:57 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: More Jury<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:28:am<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/30/2000 11:29 AM, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > I think that for drug cases they also ask if you disapprove of the drug<BR>
> > laws. Which could get you into the same bind.<BR>
><BR>
> That's true. I was called for jury duty a couple years ago, and after<BR>
> reading the charge ("possession of a glass pipe," believe it or not), the<BR>
> judge said that it was a drug case and asked if anybody had a problem with<BR>
> that. I said I did, since the prospective jurors are under oath. The judge<BR>
> was so angry I was worried that he would throw _me_ in jail!<BR>
<BR>
What did happen Ken?  Were you replaced?  In Oz, you would have had a<BR>
discussion with the judge and it would have been decided basically, between<BR>
you if it would stand in the way of a fair ruling... or the judge could<BR>
decide from your "demeanour" if you should be replaced... and if so, then a<BR>
new juror would be selected before the un-selected ones are dismissed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 21:06:39 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:40:38 -0400 (EDT), Peter Newman<BR>
<pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>But Draftees are transferable. A character who is drafted into<BR>
>the Merchant Service can, using the Merchant Advanced Character<BR>
>Generation System be transferred between mega corporations,<BR>
>sector-wide, subsector-wide, interface, fledgling, and free traders.<BR>
>After being transferred these characters are still subject to<BR>
>mandatory renlistment (on a roll of twelve) and hence are<BR>
>not free thus draftee slaves are transferable. This is chattel<BR>
>slavery.<BR>
<BR>
These are not necessarily "transfers" as in transferring<BR>
ownership of a slave, but represent corporate realignments - a<BR>
transfer "up" may be indicative of an acquisition (and/or change<BR>
of work location); a transfer "down" may be indicative of<BR>
"spinning off" a subsidiary into an independent company. <BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, any or all transfers in the Merchant career could<BR>
be viewed as "normal" involuntary job changes - i.e., you got<BR>
fired, but were able to find work with a different company, on a<BR>
different level.  Terms in which you don't get skills may be<BR>
similar; you didn't get skills because you were changing jobs,<BR>
which disrupted your opportunities for skill acquisition.<BR>
<BR>
"Mandatory re-enlistment" in the Merchant career could also be<BR>
interpreted as one of those "offer you can't refuse" deals.  Or,<BR>
it could represent that, for whatever reason, the Imperium or a<BR>
planetary government commandeered the facilities and services,<BR>
and refused to allow resignations for "the duration of the<BR>
emergency".  Or, it might represent that you signed a contract<BR>
guaranteeing that you'd finish a project before retiring, and the<BR>
project ran over schedule.<BR>
<BR>
Even the draft itself can be interpreted as increasing<BR>
desperation to get a job - any job - and finally managing to get<BR>
something with a merchant operation, though probably not what you<BR>
wanted.<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of explanations for game mechanics (which the<BR>
draft and mandatory reenlistment are) that don't require constant<BR>
interpretation across all usages.  Fit the explanation to the<BR>
situation.  Don't focus on words.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:37:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
The following is an excerpt from one of the Imperial History documents<BR>
<BR>
In 1104, Emperor Strephon appointed Dulinor, one of his closest friends,<BR>
Archduke of Ilelish. Dulinor has actively, and vocally, attacked<BR>
conservative institutions. He instituted a universal draft, established<BR>
policies for disseminating technology, and advanced his subject's standard<BR>
of living<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On page 75 of theMT Players Manual, Dulinor's decription includes the<BR>
following:<BR>
<BR>
"Yet at the same time , Dulinor was responsible for great advances in his<BR>
subjects' standard of living.  he established  policies for the<BR>
dissemination of technology; he instituted a unversal draft (increasing<BR>
training and education); he was vocal in his criticism of conservative<BR>
forces in the Imperium."<BR>
<BR>
Thus the draft dows exist at least in certain Domains.  Perhaps this is the<BR>
basic unit by which the draft is administered if implemented.  The fringe<BR>
areas would most likely have a draft due to enhanced defense requirements<BR>
for the borders.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:11:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
T4?<BR>
<BR>
Jeeze I _am_ sorry<BR>
<BR>
IMESHO T4 is worse the TNE..<BR>
<BR>
(Dukking into my dung-proof shelter)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 1:49 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 7/2/00 8:43 AM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have recently been informed by someone<BR>
>> on the list, in fact, that my LBBs published in that year (and still in<BR>
>> use to this very day) are the 'heretical version' (e.g.  damage for body<BR>
>> pistol is 3D8) and predate the edition used for the BFB recently<BR>
>> published.<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, that came as a shock.  I had to pull my LBB's out and<BR>
> check...sure enough, the weapons had + and - modifiers and the BBB<BR>
> (and T4) doesn't.  BTW, I'm writing BBB for the recently published<BR>
> Big Black Book, I'm sure you mean the same book, but what does BFB<BR>
> stand for?<BR>
<BR>
Big Floppy Book<BR>
><BR>
> I asked a question when this first came up that nobody answered, and<BR>
> it wasn't facious or rhetorical (as they sometimes are)...I really<BR>
> wanted to know, so I'll ask it again.<BR>
><BR>
> In Traveller (other than TNE or GT), each die of damage is applied<BR>
> separately, except on the first injury.  So, if you have a weapon<BR>
> that does 3d, and you rolled 2,4,1, you would apply 2 to one<BR>
> characteristic, 4 to another and 1 to a third, and if it were the<BR>
> first injury of a fight you would apply all 7 point to a single<BR>
> characteristic. That's clear.<BR>
><BR>
> However, if you have a weapon listing of 2d+2 or 3d-8 that throws<BR>
> the rules for application of damage into the toliet.  For the +2<BR>
> modifier you *could* say it is 1d, 1d, 2 and use it as normal, but<BR>
> I'm totally at a loss as to how you were supposed to apply the -8<BR>
> modifier.  I know how *I* did it for all the years that I used CT, I<BR>
> changed the rules.  <g><BR>
><BR>
> My question is how did others handle the negative modifier, and more<BR>
> to the point how was it *supposed* to be handled?<BR>
><BR>
> Eris,<BR>
> The Heretic<BR>
<BR>
Good question.  Usually, I apply the DM to one die of the roll.  No one in<BR>
my group uses either the carbine or body pistol, which have the big DMs.<BR>
Given the paucity of the damage, I'd be inclined to just assign all the<BR>
damage to 1 stat (with the DM applied) unless there were some specific<BR>
reason not two (e.g. the character is so badly injured he needs to be a be<BR>
to spread the 2 point he just took from the snub pistol.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure why Marc decided to get rid of the damage DM.  Now a body<BR>
pistol and rifle do equivalent damage, which I think is erroneous.  I've<BR>
done an pretty thorough analysis of die roll probabilities, and gave decided<BR>
to stick with damage DMs for now.<BR>
<BR>
I am considering the T4 combat system, however, as I really dislike the way<BR>
armor is treated in CT.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 23:41:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>>>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it<BR>
>>>allowable to *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a<BR>
>>>contract? How about one that places limits on what you can<BR>
>>>or can't be made to do? Would that beillegal?<BR>
>><BR>
>> No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
>> Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
>> chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
>> and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
>> familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
>> contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
>> the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
>> to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.<BR>
><BR>
>Only problem is, your interpretation would also apply to *jailing*<BR>
>anybody.<BR>
><BR>
Not applicable to arrest and detention of an individual by a legal<BR>
government for violation of a local law (as long as that law doesn't<BR>
contradict Imperial Law.) Now unlawful imprisonment or kidnapping by another<BR>
individual is another story. Governments often reserve to themselves powers<BR>
not granted to their citizens.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 00:18:13 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Getting away with murder (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> ObsTrav - On a high population high tech world with a reasonable law level I <BR>
> suspect it is almost impossible to get away with murder unless you are<BR>
> extremely ingenious.<BR>
<BR>
Four things come to mind:<BR>
<BR>
1: "Murder?  That wasn't murder, it was a simple [fill in the blank]."  <BR>
    If no one knows that foul play was involved, no murder investigation<BR>
    will take place.  Accidents happen.  People do themselves in through<BR>
    innattention, error, or other misadventure all the time.  The trick is to <BR>
    orchestrate the chain of individually harmless events that lead to a fatal<BR>
    "accident".  A "misprinted" work order, a night full of telemarketer sales <BR>
    calls, and a discarded plascard container "blown against" an air intake <BR>
    may be nothing individually, but together they may mean that your<BR>
    arch-enemy Graeme Philo just died in his sauna.<BR>
    <BR>
2: "He did it."  Policemen love an open-and-shut case, it fits what they're<BR>
    used to and expecting.  Framing someone else is especially effective if<BR>
    your patsy can't or won't deny guilt.  Dead patsies are usually best, but<BR>
    live ones can occaisionally be lead to believe that they actually did the crime<BR>
    themselves.  Also, never underestimate the utility of having a local mad<BR>
    serial killer on the loose.   Yeah, Mikhanto the Mad Droyne may insist<BR>
    that he only killed 665 humans, but the 666th victim showing his <BR>
    characteristic Zhemzha marks will probably get credited to him as well.<BR>
<BR>
3: "We all did it."  Get the government to do your dirty work for you.  High law<BR>
    level worlds may have a host of capital punishment crimes that you can<BR>
    arrange for your target to break, or frame them for breaking.  If the planet<BR>
    has overcrowded, violence-ridden prisons, then simply getting the person<BR>
    incarcerated can lead to their deaths, especially if you are able to help<BR>
    things along through careful selection of the crime they get known for<BR>
    committing and/or the place they get sent to.  An ill-tempered, prejudiced,<BR>
    impulsive white-collar criminal who gets incarcerated in a facility for <BR>
    violent offenders may not last the first night, especially if the place is<BR>
    mostly occupied by off-worlder "war criminals" (captured mercenaries)<BR>
    who have been tipped off that this is the guy who got their repatriation<BR>
    bonds delayed...whether he did or not.<BR>
<BR>
4: "I didn't do it.  My friend Strephon will vouch for me...you know the guy?  <BR>
    Here's 100,000 pictures of him."  Cynical as it sounds, in the OTU there<BR>
    is a direct correlation between high law level and high official corruption.<BR>
    You certainly won't be the first to buy your way out of a murder rap.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 00:29:25 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Privacy (was re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Mark Preston wrote:<BR>
> ObTrav: Visitors might find it a bit risky though - especially if privacy is valued <BR>
> (and the world _is_overcrowded for the living space available).<BR>
<BR>
A common response to overcrowding is a redefinition of personal boundries,<BR>
a change in the way privacy is expressed.  For example, someone might bathe <BR>
and change clothes in the middle of the street, *you* are violating their privacy <BR>
by staring at them (or possibly even acknowledging their presence) while they<BR>
are doing so.  People on this low-tech, high-pop water world should still have and <BR>
expect others to have personal boundries, the nature of these boundries will <BR>
simply be different in placement and in level of response to violation than an <BR>
offworlder might expect.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:02:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?)<BR>
<BR>
>In any case, I'm reminded of a similar situation. I remember reading once,<BR>
a<BR>
>>long time ago, about this one person who formed a blockade and stopped a<BR>
man<BR>
>>from a place he was legally entitled to be. The year was 1955, if I recall<BR>
>>correctly. The woman was Rosa Parks. The place was a bus seat. It would<BR>
seem<BR>
>>by your criteria, there would be something wrong with that. I'm not<BR>
prepared<BR>
>>to believe this.<BR>
><BR>
>Um, no.  Rosa Parks was arrested for refusing to give up her seat to a<BR>
>white man.  Nobody blocked her access to a seat.<BR>
<BR>
I believe the poster was trying to sarcastically compare Rosa Parks' refusal<BR>
to give up her seat - which has a violation of the Jim Crow laws - with<BR>
protesters (at either the WTO talks or at abortion clinics, I'm not sure<BR>
which,) blocking of people from entering buildings. Certainly a stretch.<BR>
<BR>
As this is an OT subject the only thing I'll say is this: I believe the real<BR>
point of the post was that no matter what side of the issue you are on, left<BR>
or right, if your opponent uses the tactic it's wrong, but if your side uses<BR>
it it's alright. Dig up dirt on Bork and you can bet the other side will dig<BR>
up dirt on Thomas. Iran-Contra - Whitewater, Wright - Gingrige, etc.  I'd<BR>
put money down that the next president of the United States will find<BR>
himself subject to a number of attempted civil suites. No Matter Who He Is!<BR>
If it's Bush some left wing group with more money than cause will ***find***<BR>
a reason. If it's Gore some right wing group will do the same. Basically<BR>
there are no winners when these kinds of tactics are used. If you don't like<BR>
Roe vs. Wade get the line up of the Court changed so they'll overturn the<BR>
ruling. If you don't like the WTO get guys into Congress and the Presidency<BR>
that won't play nice with them.<BR>
<BR>
If I had a couple of million buck in stock in the overseas markets I'd be<BR>
worrying about the WTO reaching an agreement too. And if I was some poor<BR>
working union shmuck who was afraid I'd lose my job to some twelve year old<BR>
making less a month than I do an hour I'd probably want to shut them down<BR>
too. It's all in who you are.<BR>
<BR>
P.S. That racist S.O.B. was probably real pissed that some female of an<BR>
inferior race didn't know her place and even more shocked that a bunch of<BR>
uppity n-------s and  New York carperbaggers had the gall to come down and<BR>
try to protest him exercising his right under the law. I'm sure most of his<BR>
Racist S.O.B. friends agree with him too.<BR>
<BR>
History's a funny thing. If the South had won the war I'd probably be<BR>
sitting back in Illinois right now running a station on the Underground<BR>
Railroad, in defiance of the law. ( Or maybe not in defiance of it, if the<BR>
south was an enemy foreign country, instead of sitting here in Virginia.) Or<BR>
maybe sitting here doing the same thing, if not hung. On the other hand if<BR>
Lincoln hadn't been killed maybe Rosa Parks wouldn't have been asked to give<BR>
up that seat, because hard working old ladies shouldn't have to put up with<BR>
such crap. Rant over!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:14:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Gun Loving PCs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 29 Jun 00, at 21:52, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> And cows are nice, placid animals...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Yeah, right. Tell that to the Jersey who tried to gore me when I had to<BR>
>> carry her newborn calf up to the barn...<BR>
><BR>
> Well you had to go and do that with one of the most aggresive breeds, <BR>
> didn't you?<BR>
<BR>
Hey, it wasn't *my* idea. I was just the "lucky" person who was strong<BR>
enough to carry the calf and not experienced enough at keeping a cow<BR>
away from someone she *really* wanted to get at.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally, she was the *only* cow we hadn't gotten around to de-horning<BR>
yet...<BR>
<BR>
And to top it off, the bull that'd serviced her was a Cimental. *BIG*<BR>
calf. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:18:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 30 Jun 00, at 10:18, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Aimed fire is going to tend to concentrated on more "noticeable"<BR>
>> figures in the opposing "line", so less noticeable folks won't get<BR>
>> aimed at, at all.<BR>
><BR>
> Which is why most sensible grunts avoid being too close to the section <BR>
> commander, radio operator or machine gunner.<BR>
<BR>
And want no part of that fancy new weapon unless the rest of the squad<BR>
is carrying it too. I'm told that anyubody who is obviously carrying a<BR>
"different" weapon is real high on the priority list, on the assumption<BR>
that it's more dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:06:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>>>Also, I know the Imperium is against slavery. But is it<BR>
>>>>allowable to *sell* yourself into to "slavery" via a<BR>
>>>>contract? How about one that places limits on what you can<BR>
>>>>or can't be made to do? Would that beillegal?<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> No, it's contrary to the Imperial edict outlawing slavery.<BR>
>>> Slavery is the ownership of another sophont as an item of<BR>
>>> chattel, or any relationship characterized by the badges<BR>
>>> and incidents of slavery (if I may paraphrase a document<BR>
>>> familiar to all).  Any situation that results in slavery is<BR>
>>> contrary to Imperial law, is unenforceable, and subjects<BR>
>>> the slave owner and any aiders, abettors, or conspirators<BR>
>>> to Imperial high justice criminal penalties.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Only problem is, your interpretation would also apply to *jailing*<BR>
>>anybody.<BR>
<BR>
> Not applicable to arrest and detention of an individual by a legal<BR>
> government for violation of a local law (as long as that law doesn't<BR>
> contradict Imperial Law.) Now unlawful imprisonment or kidnapping by another<BR>
> individual is another story. Governments often reserve to themselves powers<BR>
> not granted to their citizens.<BR>
<BR>
But they have outlawed slavery. Note carefully that the amendment to<BR>
the US Constitution that outlawed slavery has a clause about "except as<BR>
punishment for a crime". <BR>
<BR>
They *had* to put that in, because otherwise a first year law student<BR>
could show that jail time *is* slavery (or at least "involuntary<BR>
servitude").<BR>
<BR>
And while governments do often reserve powers, this isn't a matter of a<BR>
"power", it's a matter of doing something that the government itself<BR>
has said it is not legal to do. You won't find many cases of that among<BR>
governments that follow the rule of law. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:04:50 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
>Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another Medical Reaction<BR>
>today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the minor characters is a US<BR>
>Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the insignia in the right<BR>
>place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the Americal Division combat<BR>
>patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to be in the correct<BR>
>order, and the appropriate ones for a combat infantryman!<BR>
><BR>
>The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
<BR>
Which brings up the obvious question:  was the General a human,<BR>
or a muppet?  <WEG><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:28:18 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT (was RE: Anarchists (was: Who has the biggest City Park in the U.S.?))<BR>
<BR>
Chris Seamans wrote:<BR>
> Did I say that? No. I did point out that she blocked access to a seat.<BR>
> According to the criteria Kiri outlined Rosa Parks was a blatant, violent<BR>
> criminal who should have been sued. I disagree.<BR>
<BR>
My usual response to Mr. Seamans is to tell him to "go light a match".<BR>
Considering the toasty warmth he's generating with this thread, it seems<BR>
he's followed my advice.  :o)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 03:02:27 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT: Jury Nullification (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
>Of course they should.  I don't want to be involved in any case, on either<BR>
>side, where I don't even know what the applicable laws are, because the<BR>
>jurors decided to throw them out and rule on their own feelings.<BR>
>Juries are part of the judicial branch.  They follow the law.  Legislators<BR>
>make law.  Anyone who has a problem with the law should bring it to the<BR>
>attention of a legislator.  I hope the author of the post you were<BR>
>replying to has already done that.<BR>
<BR>
A few things:<BR>
<BR>
Jurors are not members of the judicial branch.  They are representatives<BR>
specifically of the people; the accused's peers, the citizens of the nation,<BR>
acting in person to promote justice in company with representatives of the<BR>
judicial branch.  They are not members of the judicial branch any more than<BR>
soldiers are members of the executive branch.<BR>
<BR>
Jury nullification is not a substitute for good laws, it is an immediate remedy<BR>
for bad laws.  It is not preferred over the repeal or prevention of bad laws,<BR>
it is just another tool to mitigate their impact.<BR>
<BR>
Regardless of what judges and prosecutors may tell you, juries in the USA are,<BR>
in criminal cases, empowered to judge both the facts *and* the law.  The jury <BR>
judges the law by determining if the law should be applied in the specific case <BR>
before it.  Should even one juror be determined that the law should not be applied, <BR>
then a conviction will be prevented at that time.  <BR>
<BR>
The judge's role is to present (and possibly explain) the law that the prosecutors <BR>
claim has been violated, and to manage proceedings so the jury can be <BR>
presented with the facts of the matter and the jury's decision can be applied.<BR>
Judicial excesses aside, he has *no* further responsibilities.<BR>
<BR>
Put this together with the idea that jury selection is intended to be completely<BR>
random, with little or no stacking of the jury either way by judges and <BR>
prosecutors - no way to exclude people from the jury who would think that<BR>
the law in question should not exist in the first place, no way for the government<BR>
agents (judges and prosecutors) to ensure that all jurors for the trial agree with<BR>
the judge and government lawyers.<BR>
<BR>
The result:  if jury nullification is promoted as an option, then the only laws that<BR>
people will be penalized for breaking are those that an overwhelming majority<BR>
of the people support.  Not just a simple majority, sufficient for electing <BR>
representatives to legislature - for consistent convictions, far more than <BR>
eleven in twelve citizens must agree that the law is just.<BR>
<BR>
Consider how many laws legislatures pass.  Would they pass so many if<BR>
jury nullification were well known?  Would the American legal system be in<BR>
such disarray if the politicians and the police knew that they could only depend<BR>
on convictions when the overwhelming majority of people believed that the<BR>
lawbreaker had done something wrong?  Or would many more actions that<BR>
a person can do be considered their own business, rather than that of the<BR>
government?   <BR>
<BR>
Jury nullification isn't a perfect idea, by any means.  Nothing a real and <BR>
functional society uses can be.  But IMO, it is fully in line with the idea<BR>
that in this country, the majority does *not* necessarily rule, and that<BR>
the minority should have protections from the excesses the majority can<BR>
compel.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2709<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, July 3 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2710<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
equipment quirk<BR>
Re: Getting away with murder (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
Re: OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re:Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
[www] 02 Jul 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 03:07:31 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Cark Kettler wrote:<BR>
>One good thing has come of this thread.  Now that I've heard of jury<BR>
>nullification, there's no chance I'll ever have to serve on a jury in my<BR>
>life.  I'll just threaten to say the words and be kicked out of there so<BR>
>fast...<BR>
<BR>
Considering the above statement...<BR>
<BR>
If you were on trial for your life, what kind of jury would you deserve?<BR>
Or do you not agree that a jury trial is a good way to arrive at justice?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 22:21:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: equipment quirk<BR>
<BR>
I recently bought one of those "Family Radio Service" band<BR>
handie-talkies, so I could link up with some friends who were using<BR>
them. <BR>
<BR>
It's got a quirk that'd be *great* for small civilian radio unit in<BR>
Traveller. It beeps. It beeps when you turn it on. It beeps when you<BR>
change channels, it beeps when you enable or disable the "quiet code". <BR>
<BR>
This is sort of understandable for a piece of civilian gear. But what's<BR>
inexcusable is this:<BR>
<BR>
If you get the optional earbud & mike, it sends the beep to the earbud.<BR>
Sounds like good idea, right?<BR>
<BR>
Wrong! Through the earbud the beep is loud enough that it *hurts*. I<BR>
know it's loud enough to cause a temporary reduction of hearing, and I<BR>
suspect that it's strong enough to do permanent damage if you do it<BR>
very many times. <BR>
<BR>
I plan to have some words with a few people about this design "feature".<BR>
<BR>
In the meantime, it'd make a *lovely* little quirk to inflict on<BR>
players if they go with cheap civilian com gear. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 00:31:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Getting away with murder (was re: Re: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> 2: "He did it."  Policemen love an open-and-shut case, it fits what they're<BR>
>     used to and expecting.  Framing someone else is especially effective if<BR>
>     your patsy can't or won't deny guilt.  Dead patsies are usually best, but<BR>
>     live ones can occaisionally be lead to believe that they actually did <BR>
>     the crime <BR>
>     themselves.  Also, never underestimate the utility of having a local mad<BR>
>     serial killer on the loose.   Yeah, Mikhanto the Mad Droyne may insist<BR>
>     that he only killed 665 humans, but the 666th victim showing his <BR>
>     characteristic Zhemzha marks will probably get credited to him as well.<BR>
<BR>
It's hard to pull off for *murder*, but for lesser crimes it works well<BR>
if you can pin the crime on someone who has an alibi, but doesn't dare<BR>
*admit* to it. <BR>
<BR>
"I didn't rob that bank! I was clear across town murdering an old man!"<BR>
<BR>
And if all else fails, maybe it's worth it to you to do some jail time<BR>
for a lesser crime, if the crime seems to give you an alibi. This<BR>
*will* require a means of fudging the time of death that the locals<BR>
won't notice. <BR>
<BR>
> 3: "We all did it."  Get the government to do your dirty work for you.  High <BR>
> law<BR>
>     level worlds may have a host of capital punishment crimes that you can<BR>
>     arrange for your target to break, or frame them for breaking.  If the <BR>
> planet<BR>
>     has overcrowded, violence-ridden prisons, then simply getting the person<BR>
>     incarcerated can lead to their deaths, especially if you are able to help<BR>
>     things along through careful selection of the crime they get known for<BR>
>     committing and/or the place they get sent to.  An ill-tempered, <BR>
> prejudiced,<BR>
>     impulsive white-collar criminal who gets incarcerated in a facility for <BR>
>     violent offenders may not last the first night, especially if the place <BR>
> is<BR>
>     mostly occupied by off-worlder "war criminals" (captured mercenaries)<BR>
>     who have been tipped off that this is the guy who got their repatriation<BR>
>     bonds delayed...whether he did or not.<BR>
<BR>
I used to know an ex-con. An almost sure way to get somebody into<BR>
*serious* trouble inside is to arrange for someone to "know" that they<BR>
are a child molester or a snitch. <BR>
<BR>
This can be accomplished by casually mentioning it to an ex-con and<BR>
then arranging for him to get caught for something that'll get him<BR>
inside the same jail/prison.<BR>
<BR>
For that matter, if you can find a way to do a favor for the right type<BR>
of "lifer" or for someone inside who is already facing a death<BR>
sentence, but is still in the "general population" part of the prison,<BR>
they'll kill him for you. After all, what are the authorities going to<BR>
do? Kill them?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:13:44 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> >Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another Medical Reaction<BR>
> >today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the minor characters is a US<BR>
> >Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the insignia in the right<BR>
> >place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the Americal Division combat<BR>
> >patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to be in the correct<BR>
> >order, and the appropriate ones for a combat infantryman!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's a Muppet movie.<BR>
><BR>
> Which brings up the obvious question:  was the General a human,<BR>
> or a muppet?  <WEG><BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Muppets from Space? You haven't lived till you watch MFS at 7 in the morning<BR>
after all night SF movies (Galaxy Quest...Alien...2010...MFS...Starship<BR>
Troopers...all for Aus$15 (pre GST) still jetlagged from this...)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:56:52 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
> <BR>
>>>I was suggesting that in doing so they are redefining words to suit their<BR>
>>>own needs in a manner that I find hypocritical.<BR>
> <BR>
>>Now, this is what I take issue with. Unless I'm wrong about the meaning of<BR>
>>the word, <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
>The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language<BR>
>http://www.bartleby.com/61/<BR>
>says:<BR>
>hypocritical<BR>
>ADJECTIVE: 1. Characterized by hypocrisy: "hypocritical praise." <BR>
>2. Being a hypocrite: "a hypocritical rogue."<BR>
>and defines hypocrisy as:<BR>
>NOUN: 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or <BR>
>virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. <BR>
>An act or instance of such falseness.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, do we speak the same language? When I read the words above I find my<BR>
original impression that in order for someone to be hypocritical, he must<BR>
profess beliefs, feelings, or virtues that he does not, in fact, hold to be<BR>
completely confirmed. If someone genuinely hold a belief, _even if the<BR>
belief itself is false_ and acts according to this belief, then he is NOT a<BR>
hypocrite. He may be a lot of other things, but he is not a hypocrite.<BR>
<BR>
>>>I ignored it because you were attempting to use what you consider to be the<BR>
>>>_implausibility_ of a written rule <BR>
>><BR>
>>I'm not saying the rule is implausible. I'm saying that your interpretation<BR>
>>of it is implausible. There's a big difference.<BR>
> <BR>
>Yes there is a big difference.<BR>
> <BR>
>However I do not believe, and am unclear why you believe, that quoting the<BR>
>written letter of the game rules as written qualifies as _interpreting_<BR>
>said rules. To me quotation is not interpretation it is recitation.<BR>
<BR>
Because the character generation system is a simplified simulation of a very<BR>
complex process. As such some of its provisions must be fairly abstract. To<BR>
say that this or that particular part of the procedure is to be taking<BR>
litterally is just as much an interpretation as to say that it should not.<BR>
Or do you also think that when someone musters out of a service, he marches<BR>
up to the Mustering Out desk and throw a number of dice, getting money and<BR>
goods according to what the dice says? Or that any skills learned during the<BR>
mustering out procedure represents a skill increase that takes place at that<BR>
moment? Or that improvements in Social Status all take place when the<BR>
character leaves the service?<BR>
<BR>
And if you don't think that, why don't you insist that those bits are to be<BR>
taken literally? After all, that's what the rules say.<BR>
<BR>
>Therefore from my point of view you are saying that the rule is implausible<BR>
>because all I see myself as doing is quoting the rules.<BR>
<BR>
You're quoting a game mechanic and insisting that it should be taken<BR>
literally. That's just exactly precisely as much interpreting it as<BR>
saying that it isn't to be taken literally.<BR>
<BR>
>>Actually, the draft rule does not appear in _Citizens of the Imperium_.<BR>
>>Characters generated according to this canonical CT book are not subject<BR>
>>to the draft.<BR>
><BR>
>No they are not. This is just another example of why MT is superior to CT.<BR>
>When the CT rules were rewritten and revised to form the MT rules the lack<BR>
>of a draft reflected in 'Citizens' was excluded. It is quite possible that<BR>
>said exclusion was deliberate.<BR>
<BR>
Possible, yes. But 'possible' isn't proof.<BR>
<BR>
>>Which is another clear indication that the draft is an artifice of the<BR>
>>character generation rules rather than a reflection of the game world.<BR>
>>Otherwise the rules would have been the same for CT and MT, the two<BR>
>>rules sets covering periods very close or even overlapping.<BR>
><BR>
>It might also suggest that the Draft is canonical but that the MT table is<BR>
>a better representation of the service into which Imperial citizens can be<BR>
>drafted.<BR>
<BR>
So Imperial citizens CAN'T be drafted to the Merchants and the Others? Then<BR>
why did the rules in _Book 1_ say they could?<BR>
<BR>
>>"RE-ENLISTMENT: Generally, a character is free to leave a career, or to<BR>
>>remain for another term, depending on personal desires or goals. There <BR>
>>is some chance that other considerations may force the person out, or keep<BR>
>>the person in the specific career for another term." [_Citizens_, p3]<BR>
>><BR>
>>In other words, the _game mechanic_ that is _called_ re-enlistment actually<BR>
>>represents an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
>>formal re-enlistment procedure.<BR>
><BR>
>If the procedure was not formal then why do four year terms exist?<BR>
<BR>
Peter, read the text. It was written by approved Traveller authors. It is<BR>
canon. It states quite clearly that the word 're-enlistment' is used to<BR>
represent an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
formal re-enlistment procedure. The fact that this upsets your claims does<BR>
not make it any less canonical. Now, you may argue that they do not make<BR>
sense, but if you do, please explain how that differs from what I've been<BR>
doing.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and to answer your question: Because it is a game mechanic. Don't you<BR>
feel that is is the tiniest bit unlikely that the Imperials, Solomani,<BR>
Zhodani, Sword Worlders, Darrians, Aslans, Hivers, Vargr, K'Kree, and<BR>
Droyne all just happens to have terms of service equal to precisely four<BR>
standard Earth years?<BR>
<BR>
>To me it is self evidently true under the US Constitution whose 13th <BR>
>Ammendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as<BR>
>a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,<BR>
>shall exist within the United States, or in any place subject to their<BR>
>jurisdiction." Under this passage involuntary servitude, even if not defined<BR>
>as slavery, is forbidden except as a punishment for a crime.<BR>
<BR>
Well, a draft clearly forces people to do something that they don't want<BR>
to do. I agree that military service performed by draftees qualifies as<BR>
involuntary service. But what does that have to do with the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
>Therefore (to me) the USA can not have a draft...<BR>
<BR>
A draft may very well be unconstitutional. It certainly sounds that way to<BR>
me. But that would be because it constitutes involuntary service, not because<BR>
it constitutes slavery. And before you claim that it is the same thing, why<BR>
don't you take a minute to reflect why your constitution mentions both?<BR>
<BR>
In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Imperium which<BR>
does NOT prohibit involuntary servitude.<BR>
<BR>
>>Then you have to prove that the people of the Imperium deep down<BR>
>>believes that[*]. <BR>
><BR>
>I disagree, see my comments above r/e hypocrisy.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can inform you that on this subject you are just plain wrong.<BR>
 <BR>
>>Peter, do you really not have any trouble with the concept of the Others<BR>
>>being an actual service?<BR>
><BR>
>Not in the slightest. <BR>
<BR>
A _service_, Peter! A formal organisation on a par with the Imperial Army and<BR>
Navy and Marines and Scouts, dedicated to the pursuit of other people's money,<BR>
with enlistment offices and draft procedures!?!<BR>
<BR>
>If Marc (or whomever wrote that bit) had wanted to call them careers or<BR>
>something similar he could have done so. <BR>
<BR>
He could, but why should he? That would merely mean wasting words on something<BR>
that seem evident to everybody else but you[*].<BR>
<BR>
[*] Though I may be doing Peter an injustice here. Does anybody else on the<BR>
    list agree with him?<BR>
<BR>
>If the Others did not have some commonality than why would the career exist?<BR>
<BR>
As a catch-all category for people who didn't fit the other five categories,<BR>
four of which represented actual services. <BR>
<BR>
>If all others don't have some similarities than why do they have the same<BR>
>survival, skill, and mustering out rules?<BR>
<BR>
Because it is a simplified game mechanic.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the<BR>
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".<BR>
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:15:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>>A chattel slave is a sophont treated as an item of property, that can be<BR>
>>freely bought and sold by the owner. There is nothing in the Imperial<BR>
>>constitution that forbids any other form of slavery, as long as the<BR>
>>slave in question is "non-transferrable"...<BR>
> <BR>
>But Draftees are transferable. A character who is drafted into<BR>
>the Merchant Service can, using the Merchant Advanced Character<BR>
>Generation System be transferred between mega corporations,<BR>
>sector-wide, subsector-wide, interface, fledgling, and free traders.<BR>
<BR>
And all this obviously represents transfers happening because circumstances<BR>
caused the character to transfer, not because of a formal transfer of<BR>
contracts. The clue here is that Free Traders can also be transferred.<BR>
Free Traders by definition are not under contract to companies. <BR>
<BR>
>After being transferred these characters are still subject to mandatory<BR>
>renlistment (on a roll of twelve) <BR>
<BR>
And you have recently had a canonical text explaining that the re-enlistment<BR>
roll does not represent a formal re-enlistment procedure pointed out to you,<BR>
so why are you still ignoring that? I'll repeat it here in case you should<BR>
have forgotten:<BR>
<BR>
"Generally. a character is free to leave a career, or to remain for another<BR>
term, depending on personal desires and goals. There is some chance that<BR>
other considerations may force the person out, or keep the person in the<BR>
specific career for another term. [Followed by the standard re-enlistment<BR>
rule]." _Citizens_, p3-4.<BR>
<BR>
Now, it surely can't be that you are professing to respect all the rules,<BR>
yet actually picking and chosing the ones you like, can it? That would be<BR>
hypocritical, and we all know what you think of hypocrites.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Arguing with him is pointless, he's been told he's wrong by the authors of<BR>
>the works in question, and still stuck to his guns.<BR>
<BR>
Not pointless. It may prevent others from believing his very plausible<BR>
claims...<BR>
<BR>
OK, it's pointless, but it's fun. Or maybe I'm just not as wise as Stella<BR>
Maynard.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
"I used to argue the matter at first, but I'm wiser now.<BR>
Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."<BR>
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:22:00 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The following is an excerpt from one of the Imperial History documents<BR>
><BR>
>In 1104, Emperor Strephon appointed Dulinor, one of his closest friends,<BR>
>Archduke of Ilelish. Dulinor has actively, and vocally, attacked<BR>
>conservative institutions. He instituted a universal draft, established<BR>
>policies for disseminating technology, and advanced his subject's standard<BR>
>of living<BR>
><BR>
>Thus the draft does exist at least in certain Domains.<BR>
<BR>
Well, it exists in the Domain of Ilelish beginning some time after 1104. I<BR>
would also think it likely that it does not exist in any other domain, since<BR>
Dulinor is said to have attacked conservative institutions. His draft would<BR>
appear to be a new thing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:33:02 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
At 12:56 03/07/00 +0200, you wrote:<BR>
>Peter Newman writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
>> <BR>
>>>>I was suggesting that in doing so they are redefining words to suit their<BR>
>>>>own needs in a manner that I find hypocritical.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>>Now, this is what I take issue with. Unless I'm wrong about the meaning of<BR>
>>>the word, <BR>
>> <BR>
>> <BR>
>>The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language<BR>
>>http://www.bartleby.com/61/<BR>
>>says:<BR>
>>hypocritical<BR>
>>ADJECTIVE: 1. Characterized by hypocrisy: "hypocritical praise." <BR>
>>2. Being a hypocrite: "a hypocritical rogue."<BR>
>>and defines hypocrisy as:<BR>
>>NOUN: 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or <BR>
>>virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. <BR>
>>An act or instance of such falseness.<BR>
><BR>
>Peter, do we speak the same language? When I read the words above I find my<BR>
>original impression that in order for someone to be hypocritical, he must<BR>
>profess beliefs, feelings, or virtues that he does not, in fact, hold to be<BR>
>completely confirmed. If someone genuinely hold a belief, _even if the<BR>
>belief itself is false_ and acts according to this belief, then he is NOT a<BR>
>hypocrite. He may be a lot of other things, but he is not a hypocrite.<BR>
><BR>
>>>>I ignored it because you were attempting to use what you consider to be<BR>
the<BR>
>>>>_implausibility_ of a written rule <BR>
>>><BR>
>>>I'm not saying the rule is implausible. I'm saying that your interpretation<BR>
>>>of it is implausible. There's a big difference.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>Yes there is a big difference.<BR>
>> <BR>
>>However I do not believe, and am unclear why you believe, that quoting the<BR>
>>written letter of the game rules as written qualifies as _interpreting_<BR>
>>said rules. To me quotation is not interpretation it is recitation.<BR>
><BR>
>Because the character generation system is a simplified simulation of a very<BR>
>complex process. As such some of its provisions must be fairly abstract. To<BR>
>say that this or that particular part of the procedure is to be taking<BR>
>litterally is just as much an interpretation as to say that it should not.<BR>
>Or do you also think that when someone musters out of a service, he marches<BR>
>up to the Mustering Out desk and throw a number of dice, getting money and<BR>
>goods according to what the dice says? Or that any skills learned during the<BR>
>mustering out procedure represents a skill increase that takes place at that<BR>
>moment? Or that improvements in Social Status all take place when the<BR>
>character leaves the service?<BR>
><BR>
>And if you don't think that, why don't you insist that those bits are to be<BR>
>taken literally? After all, that's what the rules say.<BR>
><BR>
>>Therefore from my point of view you are saying that the rule is implausible<BR>
>>because all I see myself as doing is quoting the rules.<BR>
><BR>
>You're quoting a game mechanic and insisting that it should be taken<BR>
>literally. That's just exactly precisely as much interpreting it as<BR>
>saying that it isn't to be taken literally.<BR>
><BR>
>>>Actually, the draft rule does not appear in _Citizens of the Imperium_.<BR>
>>>Characters generated according to this canonical CT book are not subject<BR>
>>>to the draft.<BR>
>><BR>
>>No they are not. This is just another example of why MT is superior to CT.<BR>
>>When the CT rules were rewritten and revised to form the MT rules the lack<BR>
>>of a draft reflected in 'Citizens' was excluded. It is quite possible that<BR>
>>said exclusion was deliberate.<BR>
><BR>
>Possible, yes. But 'possible' isn't proof.<BR>
><BR>
>>>Which is another clear indication that the draft is an artifice of the<BR>
>>>character generation rules rather than a reflection of the game world.<BR>
>>>Otherwise the rules would have been the same for CT and MT, the two<BR>
>>>rules sets covering periods very close or even overlapping.<BR>
>><BR>
>>It might also suggest that the Draft is canonical but that the MT table is<BR>
>>a better representation of the service into which Imperial citizens can be<BR>
>>drafted.<BR>
><BR>
>So Imperial citizens CAN'T be drafted to the Merchants and the Others? Then<BR>
>why did the rules in _Book 1_ say they could?<BR>
><BR>
>>>"RE-ENLISTMENT: Generally, a character is free to leave a career, or to<BR>
>>>remain for another term, depending on personal desires or goals. There <BR>
>>>is some chance that other considerations may force the person out, or keep<BR>
>>>the person in the specific career for another term." [_Citizens_, p3]<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>In other words, the _game mechanic_ that is _called_ re-enlistment actually<BR>
>>>represents an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
>>>formal re-enlistment procedure.<BR>
>><BR>
>>If the procedure was not formal then why do four year terms exist?<BR>
><BR>
>Peter, read the text. It was written by approved Traveller authors. It is<BR>
>canon. It states quite clearly that the word 're-enlistment' is used to<BR>
>represent an unspecified lot of different considerations rather than a<BR>
>formal re-enlistment procedure. The fact that this upsets your claims does<BR>
>not make it any less canonical. Now, you may argue that they do not make<BR>
>sense, but if you do, please explain how that differs from what I've been<BR>
>doing.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, and to answer your question: Because it is a game mechanic. Don't you<BR>
>feel that is is the tiniest bit unlikely that the Imperials, Solomani,<BR>
>Zhodani, Sword Worlders, Darrians, Aslans, Hivers, Vargr, K'Kree, and<BR>
>Droyne all just happens to have terms of service equal to precisely four<BR>
>standard Earth years?<BR>
><BR>
>>To me it is self evidently true under the US Constitution whose 13th <BR>
>>Ammendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as<BR>
>>a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,<BR>
>>shall exist within the United States, or in any place subject to their<BR>
>>jurisdiction." Under this passage involuntary servitude, even if not defined<BR>
>>as slavery, is forbidden except as a punishment for a crime.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, a draft clearly forces people to do something that they don't want<BR>
>to do. I agree that military service performed by draftees qualifies as<BR>
>involuntary service. But what does that have to do with the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>>Therefore (to me) the USA can not have a draft...<BR>
><BR>
>A draft may very well be unconstitutional. It certainly sounds that way to<BR>
>me. But that would be because it constitutes involuntary service, not because<BR>
>it constitutes slavery. And before you claim that it is the same thing, why<BR>
>don't you take a minute to reflect why your constitution mentions both?<BR>
><BR>
>In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Imperium which<BR>
>does NOT prohibit involuntary servitude.<BR>
><BR>
>>>Then you have to prove that the people of the Imperium deep down<BR>
>>>believes that[*]. <BR>
>><BR>
>>I disagree, see my comments above r/e hypocrisy.<BR>
><BR>
>Well, I can inform you that on this subject you are just plain wrong.<BR>
> <BR>
>>>Peter, do you really not have any trouble with the concept of the Others<BR>
>>>being an actual service?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not in the slightest. <BR>
><BR>
>A _service_, Peter! A formal organisation on a par with the Imperial Army and<BR>
>Navy and Marines and Scouts, dedicated to the pursuit of other people's<BR>
money,<BR>
>with enlistment offices and draft procedures!?!<BR>
><BR>
>>If Marc (or whomever wrote that bit) had wanted to call them careers or<BR>
>>something similar he could have done so. <BR>
><BR>
>He could, but why should he? That would merely mean wasting words on<BR>
something<BR>
>that seem evident to everybody else but you[*].<BR>
><BR>
>[*] Though I may be doing Peter an injustice here. Does anybody else on the<BR>
>    list agree with him?<BR>
><BR>
>>If the Others did not have some commonality than why would the career exist?<BR>
><BR>
>As a catch-all category for people who didn't fit the other five categories,<BR>
>four of which represented actual services. <BR>
><BR>
>>If all others don't have some similarities than why do they have the same<BR>
>>survival, skill, and mustering out rules?<BR>
><BR>
>Because it is a simplified game mechanic.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>      Hans Rancke<BR>
>University of Copenhagen<BR>
>     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
<BR>
Hi sorry to butt in but I'm new to the list (haven't played Traveller for<BR>
years but still think the original 1st or Deluxe editions are best).  I'm<BR>
on several Wargames lists and I'm surprised to see that you have the same<BR>
problems here as there, ie rules lawyers and nit pickers.....its a small<BR>
world.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:52:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@erols.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> At 12:56 -0400 2/7/00, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> > Others (that y'all may not even recognize) include, IMHO, Rob Dean, Paul<BR>
> >Sanders, the original list-admin whose exact name escapes me, Mark Cook and<BR>
> >the rest of the old PBEM admins, Mike Metlay, and others I'm sure I'm<BR>
> >forgetting...<BR>
<BR>
The original list-admin was James Perkins.  I think Scott Kellogg<BR>
deserves<BR>
a place as 'notorious' as well.<BR>
<BR>
As for me, work and family (our sons are now 10 and 7) keep me pretty<BR>
busy,<BR>
but I do scan the TML digests fairly regularly.  I hope to have the kids<BR>
involved pretty soon--we're easing them in with fantasy rpgs, as they've<BR>
had more fantasy than SF read to them at this stage.  The older one is<BR>
reading SF on his own.<BR>
<BR>
I must admit some sympathy for Vilani attitudes toward technology<BR>
lately.<BR>
The vehicle files have been stowed in an unreadable format on my work<BR>
computer and I finally lost them with my latest computer upgrade.  I<BR>
still<BR>
have my hardcopy books, though, which are also my only record of Scott's<BR>
work.  Are there still TML archives back to the beginning somewhere?<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 08:52:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
The quoted paragraphs certainly seem to imply this.  Perhaps the draft<BR>
existed in the past and went into disuse, but if so, then I would think that<BR>
the word "re-instituted" would have been used.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Hans Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 7:22 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Dan Lane writes:<BR>
><BR>
> >The following is an excerpt from one of the Imperial History documents<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In 1104, Emperor Strephon appointed Dulinor, one of his closest friends,<BR>
> >Archduke of Ilelish. Dulinor has actively, and vocally, attacked<BR>
> >conservative institutions. He instituted a universal draft, established<BR>
> >policies for disseminating technology, and advanced his subject's<BR>
standard<BR>
> >of living<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Thus the draft does exist at least in certain Domains.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, it exists in the Domain of Ilelish beginning some time after 1104. I<BR>
> would also think it likely that it does not exist in any other domain,<BR>
since<BR>
> Dulinor is said to have attacked conservative institutions. His draft<BR>
would<BR>
> appear to be a new thing.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>       Hans Rancke<BR>
> University of Copenhagen<BR>
>      rancke@diku.dk<BR>
> ------------<BR>
>         "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
>          events based on the individual situation."<BR>
>                                 _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:25:30 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] 02 Jul 00 - Freelance Traveller Updated<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller<BR>
Resource has posted its most recent update to<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.  <BR>
<BR>
This update features:<BR>
<BR>
 - Ken Pick brings us some more ship designs, for express<BR>
   freighters. They can be found in The Shipyard.<BR>
<BR>
 - Also in The Shipyard from Ken Pick is an article on using<BR>
   external cargo pods to increase capacity at the cost of range.<BR>
<BR>
 - Kevin Walsh brings us the Lady Sally McGee, the next step up<BR>
   from the ordinary luxury liner. Find it in The Shipyard.<BR>
<BR>
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at<BR>
Freelance Traveller.  Please write to<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all of them, as we are<BR>
in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may be<BR>
temporarily disabled.  Freelance Traveller depends on the good<BR>
will of Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our<BR>
existence, and to write for us, making our existence possible.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation<BR>
to The Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to<BR>
Executive Network Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com)<BR>
for hosting services. Without organizations willing to cooperate<BR>
with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing needs, we would be unable<BR>
to bring you the articles and other resources that have made<BR>
Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on the <BR>
'net.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2710<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2711</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, July 3 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2711<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: maps page moved<BR>
Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2685<BR>
Archives<BR>
Technology Marches On...<BR>
Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
Re:Notorious TMLers<BR>
re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:57:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, [iso-8859-1] Jussi Kenkkil wrote:<BR>
> I don't think that spaceport weapons detectors have been set to detect <BR>
> californium rounds. I don't think anyone expects someone trying to<BR>
> smuggle 5mm californium rounds thru the detectors. IMO they've been set<BR>
> to detect more common ammo materials.<BR>
<BR>
Hold on...don't californium rounds decay quite rapidly if they're not kept<BR>
in nuclear damper boxes?  And wouldn't nuclear damper boxes be pretty hard<BR>
to conceal and/or disguise?  And if you were in charge of starport<BR>
security, wouldn't you want the contents of any nuclear damper boxes that<BR>
happen to be passing through your gates?<BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:07:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: maps page moved<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne writes:<BR>
> Moin Anthony Jackson,<BR>
> <BR>
> > It's now at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/<BR>
> <BR>
>   cool - I realy like the PDF - what's your tool to produce them ?<BR>
>   is the tool portable towards Unix/Linux ?<BR>
<BR>
I use ps2pdf on linux.  The postscript is a group of functions I wrote plus some automatically generated code.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:09:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Draft in the Imperium<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> Thus the draft dows exist at least in certain Domains.  Perhaps this is the<BR>
> basic unit by which the draft is administered if implemented.  The fringe<BR>
> areas would most likely have a draft due to enhanced defense requirements<BR>
> for the borders.<BR>
<BR>
But by the fact that it is considered worthy of note, it probably doesn't exist in most domains.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:28:41 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
<BR>
Eris writes:<BR>
On 07/02/00 at 01:35 PM,  Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> said:<BR>
>>I never much liked treating the first injury and following<BR>
>>injuries differently, so I just put all damage from a hit on<BR>
>>a single stat (until that stat is 0, of course).<BR>
>That's how I had changed the rules.  <g> <BR>
>You added up the dice plus modifier and applied it to one<BR>
>characteristic each time, not just the first.  On the first injury<BR>
>the characteristic affected was randomly picked, on subsequent<BR>
>injuries the PC could pick which one characteristic to reduce.  If a<BR>
>characteristic went to 0, the PC got to pick which one took the<BR>
<BR>
	That's very kind of you.  I have always rolled for each stat,<BR>
	but letting them choose the second and subsequent stats might<BR>
	be fun.  I'll have to think about that.<BR>
<BR>
>remaining points.  One characteristic at 0 meant the character<BR>
>*might* become unconscious and they would continue losing points<BR>
>until "treated"; two meant they were unconscious, seriously wounded,<BR>
>and points would continue to come off until they were "stablized";<BR>
>three meant they were unconscious and mortally wounded (points from<BR>
>INT started coming off until they were "stablized"); and if there<BR>
>were still points to be taken off they came directly from INT.  If<BR>
>INT ever got to 0 the character was irrevocably dead.<BR>
<BR>
	I still put a character down if one stat goes to 0, for 10<BR>
	minutes or until someone makes a roll of 8+ on 2D+Medical.<BR>
	This is Hollywood unconsciousness (no risk of death, rapid<BR>
	recovery).  With two stats to 0 you will not die if unattended,<BR>
	but you may take further damage if someone moves you without<BR>
	great care.  You wake up after an hour, and need medical care<BR>
	(splinting bones, stitches, etc.) before recovery is possible.<BR>
	Three to zero means that you are mortally wounded, but may be<BR>
	saved by prompt medical assistance (depending on prompness,<BR>
	TL, skill, conditions, End, damage in excess of total hits, etc.)<BR>
	I guess that's pretty much by the book.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:40:54 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I'm not sure why Marc decided to get rid of the damage DM.  Now a body<BR>
>pistol and rifle do equivalent damage, which I think is erroneous.  I've<BR>
>done an pretty thorough analysis of die roll probabilities, and gave decided<BR>
>to stick with damage DMs for now.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I agree.  With the big damage weapons, it is easy enough to add a D of<BR>
	damage (e.g. 4D for laser carbine...5D for laser rifle).  On the other<BR>
	hand, for the large array of light damage weapons adding a D of damage<BR>
	can double it, and 1D for hands to 3D for rifle doesn't give much of a<BR>
	choice in levels of damage.  On the gripping hand, I hate 3D-8 with<BR>
	about one third of the rolls being 1 or less.  I have therefore reduced<BR>
	the DMs and adjusted the number of D.  My memory is no better than it<BR>
	used to be, but I think that I've got<BR>
		3D rifle, cutlass<BR>
		3D-1 carbine, SMG, autopistol, revolver<BR>
		2D+1 sword<BR>
		2D blade, foil<BR>
		2D-1 body pistol, dagger<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:42:52 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
>Gauss rifles are, in general, horribly unbalancing, and about the worst <BR>
>feature of Book 4. As for laser rifles, well they're great for sniping, <BR>
>but IIRC they're very delicate, so I wouldn't want to be using one that <BR>
>close. It just gives the ref an excuse to trash a very expensive piece <BR>
>of kit.<BR>
<BR>
	I tend to agree.  The other thing that laser weapons are good for is<BR>
	zero-G combat, but the other thing that limits them is reflec armour<BR>
	(which makes you almost immune to laser fire).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:43:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2685<BR>
<BR>
> >http://www.guntech.com/media/weird_folding_smg.jpg<BR>
><BR>
> Tod, I don't recall.  Did anyone every identify this SMG for you?  If<BR>
> not, I can.<BR>
><BR>
> The submachine gun in your 2 pictures is a French "Pistolet Mitrailleur<BR>
> Hotchkiss 'Type Universel' 1949" (M1949 Hotchkiss Universal SMG.) It was<BR>
> introduced shortly after WW II broke out and saw limited adoption among<BR>
> the French police and military.  It was out of production by the early<BR>
> 1950s.<BR>
><BR>
> The best reference I've found to date is "Military Small Arms of the 20th<BR>
> Century, 7th Ed." by Ian V. Hogg and John S. Weeks (pub.: Krause, 2000.)<BR>
><BR>
> Hope this helps.<BR>
<BR>
Naturally, I have the 6th edition.  I'm Surprised that I didn't find it in<BR>
Janes of some of the other standard references.  Thanks<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:46:02 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Archives<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I must admit some sympathy for Vilani attitudes toward technology<BR>
>lately.<BR>
>The vehicle files have been stowed in an unreadable format on my work<BR>
>computer and I finally lost them with my latest computer upgrade.  I<BR>
>still<BR>
>have my hardcopy books, though, which are also my only record of Scott's<BR>
>work.  Are there still TML archives back to the beginning somewhere?<BR>
<BR>
 Several of us old-timers keep records, though mine have a few holes. Your <BR>
posted designs were also webbed somewhere for a while, though I haven't <BR>
checked recently.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:45:28 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Technology Marches On...<BR>
<BR>
Break out the Scout brew, folks. Computerized bionics have<BR>
arrived. Check out the story at:<BR>
http://www.beyond2000.com/news/Jul_00/story_687.html<BR>
<BR>
While you're at it, check out the ferry boat powered solely<BR>
by wind and solar power. It goes commercial this year and<BR>
is a great example of what TL8 can do for a waterworld. The<BR>
story is at:<BR>
http://www.beyond2000.com/news/Jun_00/story_684.html<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:03:58 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
> Hold on...don't californium rounds decay quite rapidly if they're not kept<BR>
> in nuclear damper boxes?  And wouldn't nuclear damper boxes be pretty hard<BR>
> to conceal and/or disguise?  And if you were in charge of starport<BR>
> security, wouldn't you want the contents of any nuclear damper boxes that<BR>
> happen to be passing through your gates?<BR>
<BR>
This makes more sense if you add the words "to know about"<BR>
between "you want" and "the contents" in the second to last<BR>
line.  Stupid editing mistake on my part.<BR>
                                                - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:49:23<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:24 AM 7/3/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Loren was discussing the GOO epitaph on JTAS last week. It all came <BR>
>about when we did the Grandfather as part of the Cthulhu Mythos <BR>
>thread. Doug, as you are an official GOO, can you summarise the <BR>
>thread for newcomers? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I really need to get around to doing the Templar page.<BR>
<BR>
I have twenty pages of TML discussions on the topic, which I will organize<BR>
today.  But a few highlights.<BR>
<BR>
1. One of the items left on Earth by the Ancients was a sort of telepathic<BR>
log book.  It was buried in a ruined sub-base somewhere in Mesopotamia.<BR>
<BR>
2. A Hiver expedition reached Earth in the mid 8th Century*, and found the<BR>
base.  Being non-psionic, the logbook was just another lump of material.<BR>
<BR>
3. During the dig, a human, known to history as Abdul Al-Hazard, stumbled<BR>
onto the sight.  He promptly goes a little bit over the rainbow when he is<BR>
captured by giant starfish.<BR>
<BR>
4. The Hivers place him in close proximity to the logbook, which detects a<BR>
suitable brain for the first time in eons, and downloads into poor Abdul's<BR>
mind.  He is sudden;y flooded by images of the Ancient's base, and the<BR>
feelings of the base's commander, which include Yaskodray as a huge,<BR>
all-powerful figure.  Abdul runs off screaming, the Hivers leave, and Abdul<BR>
is now a very powerful psionic. He later writes the Necronomicon.<BR>
<BR>
5. Fast forward to the Crusades.  The Knights of the Temple had a strong<BR>
interest in digging up things, and allegedly found a bronze head that spoke<BR>
to them.  An Ancient teaching device?  The Templars become a powerful<BR>
force, even when forced underground.<BR>
<BR>
6. By the late 20th Century, the Templars are the Secret Masters, running<BR>
the world from behind.  Their goal is to discover the secrets of man's<BR>
origins, and bring him to the level of the beings that produced the Bronze<BR>
Head.  <BR>
<BR>
7. Sometime in the mid-21st Century, the Droyne of Candory manage to<BR>
reactivate the Ancients psionic communications net.  This network, which<BR>
spans the Imperium and Zhodani Consulate, allows near instantaneous<BR>
communication. It also has a curious affect on sentient creatures in it's<BR>
area of influence.. they are drawn towards Candory.<BR>
<BR>
The stage is set.  The Templars, still as powerful as ever, manipulate the<BR>
Imperium for their own ends, gathering power for the eventual ascension of<BR>
mankind.  The Drayskin, a Droyne group that knows the truth about their<BR>
heritage, tries to stop the upstart humans while attempting to bring<BR>
Yaskodray back..<BR>
<BR>
The Stars Are Almost Right...<BR>
<BR>
*The date is based on the Arabic names, indicating that these events<BR>
happened after the establishment of Islam.  It might be that the names were<BR>
made up by a later writer, and the Hiver visit occurred hundreds of years<BR>
before the dates provided.  This allows you to get *real* sacrilegious if<BR>
you want to, with a certain carpenter/messiah figure...<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:50:43<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Muppets (was Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1))<BR>
<BR>
At 01:04 AM 7/3/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Which brings up the obvious question:  was the General a human,<BR>
>or a muppet?  <WEG><BR>
<BR>
Human, as was the head of the agency huntinjg for aliens.  The agency<BR>
head's aid, OTOH, was a big bear.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 10:11:16 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re:Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
At 07:52 AM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Are there still TML archives back to the beginning somewhere?<BR>
><BR>
>Rob Dean<BR>
<BR>
I have the following early TML digest archives:<BR>
<BR>
1-32<BR>
34-111<BR>
124-183<BR>
212-239<BR>
268-278<BR>
300-306<BR>
<BR>
Bundled, they make a zip file of slightly over 3 megs.<BR>
<BR>
If you're interested in single archives or they whole thing let me know and<BR>
I'll figure out a way of getting copies to you.<BR>
<BR>
Cordially,<BR>
Paul Sanders  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:20:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
Doug, you made my brain hurt, and if I had any food, this keyboard would<BR>
have died a horrible death.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:24 AM 7/3/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Loren was discussing the GOO epitaph on JTAS last week. It all came <BR>
> >about when we did the Grandfather as part of the Cthulhu Mythos <BR>
> >thread. Doug, as you are an official GOO, can you summarise the <BR>
> >thread for newcomers? ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> I really need to get around to doing the Templar page.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have twenty pages of TML discussions on the topic, which I will organize<BR>
> today.  But a few highlights.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. One of the items left on Earth by the Ancients was a sort of telepathic<BR>
> log book.  It was buried in a ruined sub-base somewhere in Mesopotamia.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. A Hiver expedition reached Earth in the mid 8th Century*, and found the<BR>
> base.  Being non-psionic, the logbook was just another lump of material.<BR>
> <BR>
> 3. During the dig, a human, known to history as Abdul Al-Hazard, stumbled<BR>
> onto the sight.  He promptly goes a little bit over the rainbow when he is<BR>
> captured by giant starfish.<BR>
> <BR>
> 4. The Hivers place him in close proximity to the logbook, which detects a<BR>
> suitable brain for the first time in eons, and downloads into poor Abdul's<BR>
> mind.  He is sudden;y flooded by images of the Ancient's base, and the<BR>
> feelings of the base's commander, which include Yaskodray as a huge,<BR>
> all-powerful figure.  Abdul runs off screaming, the Hivers leave, and Abdul<BR>
> is now a very powerful psionic. He later writes the Necronomicon.<BR>
> <BR>
> 5. Fast forward to the Crusades.  The Knights of the Temple had a strong<BR>
> interest in digging up things, and allegedly found a bronze head that spoke<BR>
> to them.  An Ancient teaching device?  The Templars become a powerful<BR>
> force, even when forced underground.<BR>
> <BR>
> 6. By the late 20th Century, the Templars are the Secret Masters, running<BR>
> the world from behind.  Their goal is to discover the secrets of man's<BR>
> origins, and bring him to the level of the beings that produced the Bronze<BR>
> Head.  <BR>
> <BR>
> 7. Sometime in the mid-21st Century, the Droyne of Candory manage to<BR>
> reactivate the Ancients psionic communications net.  This network, which<BR>
> spans the Imperium and Zhodani Consulate, allows near instantaneous<BR>
> communication. It also has a curious affect on sentient creatures in it's<BR>
> area of influence.. they are drawn towards Candory.<BR>
> <BR>
> The stage is set.  The Templars, still as powerful as ever, manipulate the<BR>
> Imperium for their own ends, gathering power for the eventual ascension of<BR>
> mankind.  The Drayskin, a Droyne group that knows the truth about their<BR>
> heritage, tries to stop the upstart humans while attempting to bring<BR>
> Yaskodray back..<BR>
> <BR>
> The Stars Are Almost Right...<BR>
> <BR>
> *The date is based on the Arabic names, indicating that these events<BR>
> happened after the establishment of Islam.  It might be that the names were<BR>
> made up by a later writer, and the Hiver visit occurred hundreds of years<BR>
> before the dates provided.  This allows you to get *real* sacrilegious if<BR>
> you want to, with a certain carpenter/messiah figure...<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
> <BR>
> TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:24:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
<BR>
> 	I still put a character down if one stat goes to 0, for 10<BR>
> 	minutes or until someone makes a roll of 8+ on 2D+Medical.<BR>
> 	This is Hollywood unconsciousness (no risk of death, rapid<BR>
> 	recovery).  With two stats to 0 you will not die if unattended,<BR>
> 	but you may take further damage if someone moves you without<BR>
> 	great care.  You wake up after an hour, and need medical care<BR>
> 	(splinting bones, stitches, etc.) before recovery is possible.<BR>
> 	Three to zero means that you are mortally wounded, but may be<BR>
> 	saved by prompt medical assistance (depending on promptness,<BR>
> 	TL, skill, conditions, End, damage in excess of total hits, etc.)<BR>
> 	I guess that's pretty much by the book.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I agree with this. The first hit is a shock that the body may not be<BR>
prepared for, and thus the character can go under.  Assuming that character<BR>
does not 'go into shock', my assumption is, though wounded, the adrenaline<BR>
is now flowing and the character is now 'steeled'.  One need only look at<BR>
incidents such as the FBI shootout in Florida to see how a highly motivated<BR>
individual can continue to fight despite grievous or even 'fatal' wounds.<BR>
IIRC, Mattox continues to give highly effective fire after being struck by<BR>
several bullets, one of which pierced the aorta.  Police detailing the scene<BR>
were able to trace his movements from the arterial spray.<BR>
<BR>
In general, I let the player assign subsequent damage to respective stats,<BR>
and decide to fight on or black out. IMTU, a lightly wounded character may<BR>
be revived through medical intervention.  This will usually involve drugs<BR>
like 'stim', but using these drugs may involved other effects.  There are<BR>
also a variety of other high-tech techniques and drugs that will allow the<BR>
character to recover faster, again, with the possibility of side effects or<BR>
even negative reactions (hey, in the future they have hypo-sprays, right).<BR>
If one looks at how far trauma medicine has come, it is easy to postulate<BR>
continued advances as tech increases.<BR>
<BR>
I have some extended medical rules on my website, if anyone is interested.<BR>
They can be found at http://www.travellercentral.com .  See the entry under<BR>
'House Rules'. Comments or suggestions on these is welcome and appreciated.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:25:27 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote<BR>
> >Sorry, Peter.  I enjoy many of your posts, but I think you have gone 'right<BR>
> >off your nut' on this one.  Perhaps you should just preface this whole line<BR>
> >of argument with 'IMTU' like the rest of us do with our own<BR>
> >interpretations/variations of the game.  Or perhaps we should all<BR>
> >acknowledge an new Trav variant: PNT, to go with CT, MT, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> You're fairly new here Tod, Peter is like this.  He has the most<BR>
> spectacular ability to not get the point of rules, <BR>
<BR>
If by 'the point of rules' you mean the use of rules than rules<BR>
are normally techniques to make the game more playable and/or fun<BR>
and/or accurate. They are intended to resolve the problem<BR>
found in childhood games of 'Cowboys and Native Americans' of<BR>
"Bang, bang, you're dead." "No I'm not."<BR>
<BR>
If by the point of rules you mean the gaming philosophy and<BR>
world view they contain than different sets of rules have different <BR>
points. The author of each set of rules should, but frequently <BR>
does not, include said point in the rules. Many sets of rules<BR>
are meant, or may be meant, to be used as guidelines but some rules<BR>
sets to not _say_ that they are meant to be used as guidelines.<BR>
I do not believe that it is proper for me to surmise that a<BR>
particular set of rules are meant to be used as guidelines absent<BR>
text evidence of this.<BR>
<BR>
> and reads rules with a<BR>
> literal interpetation that would make an Evangelical Penetecostal minister<BR>
> proud.<BR>
<BR>
Only when discussing them in a public forum. When I am<BR>
actually playing a game the rules are whatever the referee<BR>
says they are. However in a public forum people need a common<BR>
frame of reference. I find that common frame of reference in<BR>
the letter of the written rules. Most other people, including<BR>
you Doug, seem to find a looser common frame of reference.<BR>
Many of you purport to go by the rules but are, apparently for<BR>
philosophical reasons, unwilling to read them as literally as I<BR>
do.<BR>
<BR>
> Arguing with him is pointless, he's been told he's wrong by the authors of<BR>
> the works in question, <BR>
<BR>
No I have not. If you are referring to the GURPS Ally debate<BR>
I was told I was wrong by Kromm. Kromm did not write that<BR>
particular GURPS rule, Steve Jackson did. While Mr. Punch<BR>
has been acknowledged by SJG to be the canon source for GURPS<BR>
rule changes until and unless overruled by him Steve has been<BR>
known to overrule him from time to time. <BR>
<BR>
If I really believed in game rules the way that Evangelical<BR>
Pentecostal minister does I would probably use the analogy that <BR>
Kromm is St Peter and Steve Jackson is Yahweh.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I have frequently been persuaded that the interpretations<BR>
and/or modifications you (or others) are holding to might<BR>
well produce a better game and I have quite clearly said so.<BR>
All I have said is that I believe my reading of the canonical<BR>
texts is closer to the letter of their text than yours is. I am <BR>
_not_ claiming that my interpretations are better.  I am <BR>
_not_ claiming that my interpretations are more playable.  I am <BR>
_not_ claiming that my interpretations are more accurate. I am<BR>
only claiming that they better fit the letter of the written rules<BR>
text. I am perfectly willing to reject written rules text when<BR>
other written rules text appears to contradict it.<BR>
<BR>
> and still stuck to his guns.<BR>
<BR>
As I said from the beginning I knew that that the rules said<BR>
'X' and that I thought that 'X' was wrong because it seemed to<BR>
contradict what I perceived to be the more general spirit of<BR>
GURPS. Kromm simply disagreed. I readily acknowledged that (until<BR>
and unless overruled by Steve) his decision was definitive, I<BR>
merely stated that I thought it was wrong. I did stop talking<BR>
about it in this forum.<BR>
<BR>
To me the game rules are a model of the universe. I perceive<BR>
the Traveller Draft as a model of Marc's perception that the <BR>
Imperium has a draft just as I perceive the fact that (using the<BR>
advanced character generation rules) survival rolls are higher <BR>
(harder) in 'Battle' assignments than in 'Shore Duty' Assignments<BR>
as modeling Marc's perception that battles are dangerous and <BR>
that people do die or get injured during them.<BR>
<BR>
Similarly I perceive the mandatory renlistment on a twelve<BR>
rule as modeling Marc's perception that sometimes the needs<BR>
of the one are subordinated to the needs of the many in the<BR>
Imperium. I perceive the rule that applies to player characters<BR>
to be a model (in game terms) of something that happens<BR>
to non player characters as well. Hence mandatory renlistment<BR>
for PC's is a model of an Imperium in which NPC's are occasionally<BR>
forced to work for people when they don't want to.<BR>
<BR>
If you wanted to make the argument that having to stay in<BR>
service on a roll of a twelve is not slavery but simply represents<BR>
your service using a clause in a contract you signed I would<BR>
have no problem with this for non draftees. When draftees (who<BR>
have not consented to such a contract) are forced to stay in that<BR>
is another matter altogether.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:47:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
<BR>
> therefore reduced<BR>
> 	the DMs and adjusted the number of D.  My memory is no<BR>
> better than it<BR>
> 	used to be, but I think that I've got<BR>
> 		3D rifle, cutlass<BR>
> 		3D-1 carbine, SMG, auto pistol, revolver<BR>
> 		2D+1 sword<BR>
> 		2D blade, foil<BR>
> 		2D-1 body pistol, dagger<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
<BR>
I'm not particularly found of the 3D-8 myself, but as no one IMTU ever uses<BR>
these weapons, I haven't bothered to alter the damage.  Still, in CT, the<BR>
DMs let the referee fudge stuff just a little, so that stuff makes better<BR>
sense.  Example.  Take the 9mm auto against the 12mm.  Assuming we are using<BR>
ball ammo, the 12mm should hit just a little bit harder (3d-3 vs. 3d-2 for<BR>
example).  Adding a whole die destroys the symmetry of the game, but having<BR>
them both do 3D means that you might as well have the characters just carry<BR>
a '3D handgun'<BR>
<BR>
Where's the fun in that?  It's much more helpful in character development,<BR>
IMHO, if the character hauls out his old MilTech P-4 12mm auto. The "one<BR>
granddad carried in the war"  that "kicks like a mule but really puts 'em<BR>
down". Another character opts for the 5mm, which is just fine, as he tends<BR>
to use a whole magazine at a time, and prefers head shots, up close, and<BR>
from behind.  If the target is asleep, so much the better.<BR>
<BR>
It also adds some variety to weapons families.  IMTU, we have the gauss<BR>
pistol, gauss carbine and gauss rifle. They do, respectively, 4D-2, 4D-1 and<BR>
4D damage.  The character must trade off damage for conceal ability.<BR>
<BR>
Further, adding or subtracting whole dice doesn't just alter damage<BR>
radically, it skews the whole probability bell curve.  Taking the above<BR>
example, adding a point moves the average, minimum and maximum damage up or<BR>
down 1 point without altering the probability distribution<BR>
<BR>
Die roll	Minimum	Average	Maxi<BR>
4D-2		2		12		22<BR>
4D-1		3		13		23<BR>
4D		4		14		24<BR>
3D		3		10,11		18<BR>
2D		2		7		14<BR>
<BR>
Note how with changing number of dice, the whole distribution gets changed.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, just my .02 Cr.  YMMV<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:49:59 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 20:40 -0400 2/7/00, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>I am considering the T4 combat system, however, as I really dislike the way<BR>
>armor is treated in CT.<BR>
<BR>
You can get a good feel for the basics of the T4 system from ACQ. <BR>
It's actually the version of Traveller I prefer most for combat (CT - <BR>
too many tables and I don't like the combined role, MT - too complex <BR>
when you head for autofire and TNE too many dice ;-) )<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:52:19 -0500 <BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
<BR>
> The Stars Are Almost Right...<BR>
<BR>
Y'know, Doug, I'm about to start a Delta Green campaign (using Greg Porter's CORPS rules) with one of my players (my loving wife) being quite knowledgeable of the Lovecraft Mythos.  I've been looking for a way to make the mythos more 'mysterious'.<BR>
<BR>
You've just kicked my imagination into overdrive - especially since this same player is also in my current Traveller campaign.  I'm already seeing ways to link the two together.<BR>
<BR>
 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --<BR>
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   | dmoody@bridge-dot-com<BR>
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com<BR>
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           <BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:05:34 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
>From: taishon@aol.com<BR>
>I am looking for a small group of 4-6 players/GMs to <BR>
>play/rotate GM once per month in the bay area. Ideally <BR>
>they would be willing  to come to my Sebastopol Condo <BR>
<BR>
I understand that the north coast of the Black Sea is very<BR>
agreeable this time of year, but that's rather too long a<BR>
trip for me to attempt on a regular basis.  <BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry will be running a game in San Francisco about<BR>
monthly, but I think it's full (CT rules).  <BR>
<BR>
I'll be running a game in San Jose more or less monthly as<BR>
well, starting probably on 29 July (MT rules).  The San<BR>
Jose group meets for Traveller boardgames, Traveller<BR>
miniatures wargames, and other games at about 11:00 a.m.<BR>
one Saturday a month at Kristian Miller's place.  After a<BR>
day of wargaming, we have a barbecue and then spend the<BR>
evening doing something else like playing Traveller. <BR>
Contact Kristian directly for details (I've cc:ed him to<BR>
this email).  The atmosphere in the San Jose group sounds<BR>
much like what you describe.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:21:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
> You can get a good feel for the basics of the T4 system from ACQ.<BR>
> It's actually the version of Traveller I prefer most for combat (CT -<BR>
> too many tables and I don't like the combined role, MT - too complex<BR>
> when you head for auto fire and TNE too many dice ;-) )<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Dom,<BR>
<BR>
I hate the CT combined roll (armor effects hit probability).  We have our<BR>
own house rules for dealing with it.  My worry in looking at new systems for<BR>
resolving combat is that they can very easily become too complex. Anyone on<BR>
the TML ever play Aftermath.  It had an immense flowchart for resolving<BR>
damage.<BR>
<BR>
I have only glanced through T4 combat, but the basic system looks<BR>
interesting.  As I've said in earlier post, I like to keep combat brief, but<BR>
furious, keeping the player of balance and making snap decisions ( e.g.,<BR>
"you are now taking fire from your left flank, as well as front.  What do<BR>
you do RIGHT NOW!).<BR>
<BR>
This kind of play requires simple combat resolution, but my players and I<BR>
also like a certain level of detail. I have purchased ACQ, but it would be<BR>
helpful to me if you could outline a brief exchange.  Recall that I'm a<BR>
stupid CT ref, and don't really know T-4 or other variants (despite having<BR>
all the boots for all variations--so much for learning by osmosis!).<BR>
<BR>
For our combat system we use CT, with 'On Target' for hit locations and<BR>
modifications for armor (that are certainly ad hoc, and have been for 20<BR>
years).  I use a D20 for target location, since it gives a nice, flat<BR>
percentile, and we have actual hit distribution table for random fire<BR>
thoughtfully provided by the Dept of the Army via Johns Hopkins and the Rand<BR>
corporation.  The 'Book of Mars' and 'On Target' also have distribution<BR>
tables, but I bever like the fact that under 'On Target' using 2D6, you had<BR>
double the percentage chance of being wounded in the left, as opposed to the<BR>
right leg.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, combat goes something like this:<BR>
<BR>
Initiative rolled. I have a small number of players (usually 4-6) so we do<BR>
initiative individually.  Bad guys all share a single initiative.  High<BR>
initiative resolved first.  Choice: Shoot, move and snap shoot, move and<BR>
evade or other action.<BR>
<BR>
Roll to hit.  Factor in the variable (but not armor).  2D modified.<BR>
Character hits.<BR>
<BR>
Damage:  D20 +D6 (unless aiming).  D20 gives general, D6 specific location.<BR>
<BR>
Roll damage: Apply modifiers based on armor and location.<BR>
<BR>
Move on (this whole process takes a few seconds).<BR>
<BR>
In the narrative this results in something like: "Gaere Raller sprints<BR>
toward the hatch, firing a burst from his gauss carbine.  The gods of war<BR>
are with him and through pure chance (or immense skill, as he will later<BR>
tell comrades) he hits the enemy leader in the left eye.  Garcon Lefreti<BR>
drops over stone dead."<BR>
<BR>
The remaining pirates return fire.  Gaere is hit in the upper arm "flesh<BR>
wound" and bad dice result in a scrape.  Gaere takes 4 point of damage from<BR>
a pirate's SMG.  Shrugging of the fire of the pirates, Gaere announces<BR>
loudly "That the best you got?".  The pirates check morale after losing<BR>
their leader, and elect to fight on another day.<BR>
<BR>
Gaere will have his damaged shoulder tended by an attractive female hostage,<BR>
and recover rapidly.  But now every time the weather changes, he'll complain<BR>
about that shoulder.<BR>
<BR>
All the players have to do is roll a few dice.  There's no calculations or<BR>
anything like that.<BR>
<BR>
So how does ACQ compare?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2711<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Monday, July 3 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2712<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Mitsubishi Trepida?<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers <BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
School Colors (was: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: New York, New York<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: CT damage DMs<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:30:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
> Doug Berry will be running a game in San Francisco about<BR>
> monthly, but I think it's full (CT rules).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
Well, now that I know that Dou's in SF, I may have to look him up when/if I<BR>
get down there later this month.  As for having a game 'full', if<BR>
pleading/begging doesn't allow for one more poor visiting rub from the north<BR>
to be squeezed in for a night, I suppose a convenient 'accident' can always<BR>
be arranged.<BR>
<BR>
This brings up another.  What is the typical length of a game session for<BR>
most TMLers?  I'm' curious, as our weekly meets tend to run about 5 hours.<BR>
Is this the norm?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:40:13 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 -0400 3/7/00, Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[177 Line re-post  of Hans and Peter's 'discussion' snipped]<BR>
<BR>
[7 lines of new material in response snipped]<BR>
<BR>
Please can you not re-post the whole message that we've just read? <BR>
Those of us who read this in Digest form had the same post twice <BR>
because of your repeat. and a >20:1 old to new ratio is a bit <BR>
excessive!<BR>
<BR>
But your post is correct - you get whole continuum from rules lawyer <BR>
to storyteller...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:24:37 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
At 3:11 -0400 3/7/00, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> >Eris (just because).<BR>
>Why? You need a token heretic? ;-p<BR>
<BR>
Not a token one ;-) Every pantheon needs a dark side <grin><BR>
<BR>
> >Dom (brainstorming far too late at night)<BR>
>While you're at it add Dom.<BR>
<BR>
Who ? ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom (now planning to add a goo sigfile).....<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:42:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity <BR>
<BR>
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>Ah yes. Safety orange, wonderfull color, without the <BR>
>prominent display of which even the least deer like of <BR>
>human beings is fair game during hunting season.<BR>
<BR>
Boise State University's colors used to be safety orange<BR>
and royal blue.  I had an orange windbreaker that I used to<BR>
wear bike riding.  I never got hit by a car when I was<BR>
wearing it.   Now the colors are a lot more muted, which is<BR>
too bad.  <BR>
<BR>
Are we including stuff like this in our 101 Institutions of<BR>
Higher Education?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:46:55 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:21 03/07/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> You can get a good feel for the basics of the T4 system from ACQ.<BR>
>> It's actually the version of Traveller I prefer most for combat (CT -<BR>
>> too many tables and I don't like the combined role, MT - too complex<BR>
>> when you head for auto fire and TNE too many dice ;-) )<BR>
>><BR>
>> Dom<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>Dom,<BR>
><BR>
>I hate the CT combined roll (armor effects hit probability).  We have our<BR>
>own house rules for dealing with it.  My worry in looking at new systems for<BR>
>resolving combat is that they can very easily become too complex. Anyone on<BR>
>the TML ever play Aftermath.  It had an immense flowchart for resolving<BR>
>damage.<BR>
<BR>
When I played back in the mists of time, I used the range tables from CT<BR>
and the factors from AHL for the armour...ie taking off the Armour Factor<BR>
from the dice rolled.  Seemed to work ok.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:47:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Mitsubishi Trepida?<BR>
<BR>
On the way to work this morning, I walked past some parked<BR>
cars, one of which was a Mitsubishi Trepida.  That can't be<BR>
right, I thought, so I took a second look.  In fact, it was<BR>
a Mitsubishi Tredia, and my mind had just chosen to read<BR>
Tredia as Trepida.  Well, that's my ob Traveller for today.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:10:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers <BR>
<BR>
>From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one" <BR>
>since  I mainly just lurk around, but I got my feet wet <BR>
>with Double Adventure One when it first came out in 78 or <BR>
>79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.  <BR>
>Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark<BR>
<BR>
>who antedate us all?<BR>
<BR>
There are quite a few us who have been around for a very<BR>
long time.  I first played Traveller soon after it came<BR>
out, when I was in college, in 1977 or '78.  I only became<BR>
involved in the Traveller Mailing List in 1993 or '94, but<BR>
it had been in existence for some time before that.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:17:38 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>Please can you not re-post the whole message that we've just read? <BR>
>Those of us who read this in Digest form had the same post twice <BR>
>because of your repeat. and a >20:1 old to new ratio is a bit <BR>
>excessive!<BR>
<BR>
Sorry bout that, I should know better, I pay for my net connections and<BR>
calls 8-)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:21:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
>From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, who besides Doug bears the title of "TML Great Old<BR>
>>One"?<BR>
>Depends on where you set the bar for "Great" and "Old<BR>
One".<BR>
>The toughest criteria (been on the list from before the<BR>
>MPGN days, and been published) mean there are only a<BR>
>handful at most. <BR>
<BR>
Wow! I qualify?! Too cool!  I'm going to start using it<BR>
immeidately.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esquire<BR>
- --TML Great Old One<BR>
<BR>
P.S.:  I remember the switch _to_ mpgn, so I must have been<BR>
on before then (but I am now so old that I can't remember<BR>
where the TML was when I first joined).  I published an<BR>
adventure called Sudrian Wevo in The Traveller Chronicle.  <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:26:47 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
>To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2711<BR>
>Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2000, 12:21<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
>unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:20:15<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
At 11:05 AM 7/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug Berry will be running a game in San Francisco about<BR>
>monthly, but I think it's full (CT rules). <BR>
<BR>
Um, Glenn?  That's *GT* <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:32:11 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: School Colors (was: Re: Small Arms Penetration & Velocity)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >Ah yes. Safety orange, wonderfull color, without the<BR>
> >prominent display of which even the least deer like of<BR>
> >human beings is fair game during hunting season.<BR>
> <BR>
> Boise State University's colors used to be safety orange<BR>
> and royal blue.  I had an orange windbreaker that I used to<BR>
> wear bike riding.  I never got hit by a car when I was<BR>
> wearing it.   Now the colors are a lot more muted, which is<BR>
> too bad.<BR>
> <BR>
> Are we including stuff like this in our 101 Institutions of<BR>
> Higher Education?<BR>
<BR>
Certainly.  As I see it, the whole point of 101 IoHE is to provide such<BR>
details, as a way to enhance the roleplaying experience.<BR>
<BR>
As of right now, I have on file the drafts of the following schools:<BR>
<BR>
Garda-Vilis University (my submission)<BR>
Rhylanor University (Eric Holmes)<BR>
Imperial Technological Institute (two-year tech schools) (Charles<BR>
Hensley)<BR>
Sylean Federation Vacuum Mining School (Michael Hughes)<BR>
Turiikill School of Fashion and Textiles (Ewan Quibell)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:32:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
>They're now illegal here, too. Along with every other kind<BR>
<BR>
>of pipe  (actually I think you just can't sell them). You <BR>
>this is going to stop all that nasty smoking of dope in <BR>
>pipes. Considering that I know of nobody that smokes pot <BR>
>in a pipe that won't smoke it as a joint if they don't<BR>
>have their pipe handy I imagine this law will be a great<BR>
>success.<BR>
<BR>
Even a beer can can be made into a perfectly serviceable<BR>
pipe by an already drunk twenty-something.  (Well, when my<BR>
generation was twenty-something, we were pretty<BR>
resourceful.)<BR>
<BR>
I saw Midnight Express last night.  It was really good,<BR>
with lots of stuff that could be used in a Traveller<BR>
adventure.  (Young American tries to smuggle 2 kg of<BR>
hashish out of Turkey in 1970 and spends the rest of the<BR>
movie in a Turkish prison, which is apparently not such a<BR>
bad place except for the occasional beatings and the lack<BR>
of conjugal visits.)  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:39:54 -0400 <BR>
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
As one who remembers when the Great Old One of the TML, Doug "penguin boy"<BR>
Berry joined the list, I think a tougher standard is required. <BR>
<BR>
Perhaps ask the applicant to spell a certain Battle Creek, MI cereal maker<BR>
and count the G's.<BR>
<BR>
Make any sense to some of you? I hope so.<BR>
<BR>
Glenn (no, not that one, another one) <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:47:19 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I saw Midnight Express last night.  It was really good,<BR>
> with lots of stuff that could be used in a Traveller<BR>
> adventure.  (Young American tries to smuggle 2 kg of<BR>
> hashish out of Turkey in 1970 and spends the rest of the<BR>
> movie in a Turkish prison, which is apparently not such a<BR>
> bad place except for the occasional beatings and the lack<BR>
> of conjugal visits.)<BR>
<BR>
Excepting, of course, conjugal visits by Peter Graves....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:01:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:25 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> If I really believed in game rules the way that Evangelical<BR>
> Pentecostal minister does I would probably use the analogy that<BR>
> Kromm is St Peter and Steve Jackson is Yahweh.<BR>
><BR>
Uuhhhh, better correlation would be Kromm is Jesus Christ and Steve Jackson<BR>
is God. The Pentecostal's I associated with seldom use St. Peter and never<BR>
use Yahweh.<BR>
><BR>
> If you wanted to make the argument that having to stay in<BR>
> service on a roll of a twelve is not slavery but simply represents<BR>
> your service using a clause in a contract you signed I would<BR>
> have no problem with this for non draftees. When draftees (who<BR>
> have not consented to such a contract) are forced to stay in that<BR>
> is another matter altogether.<BR>
><BR>
Speaking strictly from a U.S. military perspective of course, you are<BR>
drafted or enlist for a set period of time UNLESS the service decides that<BR>
you are too valuable to be released at that time. It is beyond extremely<BR>
rare that this happens but it does in fact happen. I do know a number of<BR>
people that it happened too and I'm not talking about war time either. There<BR>
is a clause in all enlistment contracts about "the good of the service"<BR>
which covers this. Yes, draftees have to sign an enlistment contract too.<BR>
There is also a swearing in ceremony wherein you "swear or affirm" that you<BR>
will blah, blah, blah.... If you didn't sign the contract then you were a<BR>
draft dodger and could be jailed for it. The U.S. does have a draft program<BR>
even though no one has been drafted since 1975.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:07:28 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
When I signed my Enlistment and Commissioning papers, I was well aware of<BR>
the following fact: If I desired to leave at some point after my minimum<BR>
committment was up, the service might still "retain me" based on the "needs<BR>
of the Navy."   This has actually happened to some of my fellow officers<BR>
over the past year.<BR>
<BR>
Philosophically, the modern U.S. draft differed markedly from the brutal<BR>
conscription anf impressment methods practiced in the 1800's.  Sailors and<BR>
civilians alike used to be "shanghaied" from waterfront areas by<BR>
"impressment gangs" roaming the quays.    Additionally, ships in the early<BR>
1800's would attack and raid each other for crewmembers (particularly during<BR>
the War of 1812, where the practice helped initiate the overall<BR>
"unpleasantness").<BR>
<BR>
I can see no way in which the modern draft could be categorized as a form of<BR>
slavery.  The essence of military discipline is a partial subjugation of the<BR>
individual will or freedom to the will of the group (I recognize that not<BR>
everyone on the list will agree to the appropriateness or necessity of<BR>
this).  To be sure, this is a form of tyranny, as is the Imperium, sometimes<BR>
benign, sometimes malevolent, but often necessary.    In contrast, slavery<BR>
is the total subjugation of one's will (or freedom) to that of another's<BR>
individual.<BR>
<BR>
The alternatives to the draft have already been noted, i.e. Conscientious<BR>
Objector status, etc...Slavery has no such alternative save for flight.<BR>
The draft into military service is an infringement upon individual free<BR>
will, but I think it is important to consider these facts and compare them<BR>
with<BR>
the conditions of slavery as historically experienced.<BR>
<BR>
- -You are paid (albeit at a rate less than that of an equivalent civilian)<BR>
- -You are advanced in rank and status, generally commensurate with your<BR>
performance and ability<BR>
- -You are not isolate from family or friends without respite<BR>
- -You continue to legitimately function in society<BR>
- -You cannot be sold<BR>
- -You enjoy special protections of your rights and exemptions from local laws<BR>
(taxation, voting, etc...) not afforded to civilians<BR>
- -You enjoy the benefits of the rule of law<BR>
- -You enjoy free medical, psychological and legal care<BR>
- -You are provided free housing and food of above average quality<BR>
<BR>
Conscription amounts to a restriction of freedom, but to a lesser degree<BR>
than that implied by the term "slavery."  The distinction in having two<BR>
nouns representing each concept implies that they are distinct conceptual<BR>
entities.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, concerning the constitutionality of the draft in the U.S., has it<BR>
ever been taken to the Supreme Court?<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:15:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Even a beer can can be made into a perfectly serviceable<BR>
> pipe by an already drunk twenty-something.  (Well, when my<BR>
> generation was twenty-something, we were pretty<BR>
> resourceful.)<BR>
<BR>
My brother has been known to make them out of the cardboard tubes t.p. is<BR>
rolled around, screens from out of the faucet, and aluminum foil.  I shit<BR>
you not.  Then he wonders how come my mother figures out what they are<BR>
when she sees them in the trash.  Um... only a person on drugs would do<BR>
this! <BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:47:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
During my 20 years in the Army I was assigned to the South Coast of the<BR>
Black Sea (northern Turkey) in a little fishing village by the name of<BR>
Sinop. I worked at an Intelligence site on an extinct volcano that had<BR>
formed a peninsula off the coast. Stunning views and a great place to be in<BR>
the summer (the Americans had a private stretch of beach.) Winter brought a<BR>
lot of fog and we would have to run ropes to guide us about the compound as<BR>
you literally couldn't see your hand. I was there a year and my wife was<BR>
there for 8 months of that time. Quite enjoyable and extremely friendly<BR>
people. VERY ECONOMICAL, but not much to do.<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Cc: "Kristian Miller" <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 11:05 AM<BR>
Subject: re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: taishon@aol.com<BR>
> >I am looking for a small group of 4-6 players/GMs to<BR>
> >play/rotate GM once per month in the bay area. Ideally<BR>
> >they would be willing  to come to my Sebastopol Condo<BR>
><BR>
> I understand that the north coast of the Black Sea is very<BR>
> agreeable this time of year, but that's rather too long a<BR>
> trip for me to attempt on a regular basis.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:56:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: New York, New York<BR>
<BR>
I was stationed in Berlin in the mid 70's for 4 years. I loved it there. Of<BR>
course we were an "Occupying Army" during those days, along with the U.K.,<BR>
France and the USSR.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 10:24 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: New York, New York<BR>
><BR>
> Berlin, Germany also has a museum totally dedicated to sex.  Berlin<BR>
> is a great place.  Bars/Clubs are open 23 1/2 hours a day.  They are<BR>
> required to close for a 1/2 hour for cleaning.  Berlin has great<BR>
> nightlife and I would say even better than New York.  Naturally, the<BR>
> beer is better as well.  Berlin is also a lot cheaper than other<BR>
> major cities (i.e., London, New York, Los Angeles, Paris).  In Berlin<BR>
> I was staying in a studio apartment (eine zimmer wohnungen) for only<BR>
> 450 DM ($300 USD) a month.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:36:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The vehicle files have been stowed in an unreadable format on my work<BR>
> computer and I finally lost them with my latest computer upgrade.<BR>
<BR>
What particular type of "unreadable format? Some of us have some pretty<BR>
old software.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:37:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:52 AM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Are there still TML archives back to the beginning somewhere?<BR>
>><BR>
>>Rob Dean<BR>
><BR>
> I have the following early TML digest archives:<BR>
><BR>
> 1-32<BR>
> 34-111<BR>
> 124-183<BR>
> 212-239<BR>
> 268-278<BR>
> 300-306<BR>
><BR>
> Bundled, they make a zip file of slightly over 3 megs.<BR>
><BR>
> If you're interested in single archives or they whole thing let me know and<BR>
> I'll figure out a way of getting copies to you.<BR>
<BR>
Split into chunks of around 600k each they'd likely go thru ok as<BR>
uuencoded or MIME encoded mail messages.<BR>
<BR>
I know *I* could handle them that way.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:03:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: CT damage DMs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Further, adding or subtracting whole dice doesn't just alter damage<BR>
> radically, it skews the whole probability bell curve.  Taking the above<BR>
> example, adding a point moves the average, minimum and maximum damage up or<BR>
> down 1 point without altering the probability distribution<BR>
><BR>
> Die roll        Minimum Average Maxi<BR>
> 4D-2            2               12              22<BR>
> 4D-1            3               13              23<BR>
> 4D              4               14              24<BR>
> 3D              3               10,11           18<BR>
> 2D              2               7               14<BR>
><BR>
> Note how with changing number of dice, the whole distribution gets changed.<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, here's the frequency of damage for 3d-8 (assuming<BR>
a minimum of 1.<BR>
<BR>
1	81<BR>
2	27<BR>
3	27<BR>
4	25<BR>
5	21<BR>
6	15<BR>
7	10<BR>
8	6<BR>
9	3<BR>
10	1<BR>
<BR>
That gives:<BR>
mean	3.083333...<BR>
mode	1<BR>
median	2.5<BR>
<BR>
You are going to have trouble coming up with those properties from<BR>
anything else.<BR>
<BR>
And the way I'd handle the damage is that I'd subtract the 8 from the<BR>
highest roll. Then subtract the remainder from the next highest. And if<BR>
there was still some left, I'd subtract that from the third roll. So at<BR>
worst, the player would only have to subtract from *two*<BR>
characteristics. <BR>
<BR>
You could do the same, starting with the *lowest* roll, which would<BR>
tend to maximize the damage per characteristic.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:06:59 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
"Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
>I hate the CT combined roll (armor effects hit probability).  We have our<BR>
>own house rules for dealing with it.<BR>
<BR>
I know what you mean - it's one of the parts I mildly dislike about CT.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>This kind of play requires simple combat resolution, but my players and I<BR>
>also like a certain level of detail. I have purchased ACQ, but it would be<BR>
>helpful to me if you could outline a brief exchange.  Recall that I'm a<BR>
>stupid CT ref, and don't really know T-4 or other variants (despite having<BR>
>all the boots for all variations--so much for learning by osmosis!).<BR>
<BR>
Okay - ACQ is hung around the T4 rules system and is an evolution of <BR>
the combat system.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, the combat mechanism is a 'to hit roll'  which is based on <BR>
range (plus a few modifiers for target size). Ranges relate to a set <BR>
difficulty on the BITS task system. This (in T4) corresponds to Stat <BR>
+ Skill (eg Dex + Gun Combat for normal shots, STR + Gun Combat for <BR>
autofire(*) ). You roll a number of dice depending on difficulty <BR>
under the stat + skill target.<BR>
<BR>
(*) from the top of my head I can't remember if the STR for full auto <BR>
mod is official but we discussed it on TML and in playtest.<BR>
<BR>
Once you have hit, you roll damage, which is a number of dice. Each <BR>
point of flexible armour reduces the roll of a single dice to 1. Each <BR>
point of rigid armour throws the dice away. A human sized target can <BR>
take a maximum of 3D damage from a KE based weapon like an ACR as <BR>
extra damage is assumed to blow through. Certain weapons are exempt <BR>
from this eg plasma, explosives, fire and maybe lasers.<BR>
<BR>
Autofire can increase damage of penetrating dice by multiplying them. <BR>
It also effects to hit rolls. Explosive damage can happen in parallel <BR>
- - eg autosnub does 5D +1D explosive, PCMP does lots of dice + <BR>
explosive + potential blinding. Explosive damage can be concussive or <BR>
fragmentation.<BR>
<BR>
ACQ takes the basic T4 system and gives it an Action point system <BR>
(Current Dex + Current Int + Tactics = APP), plus an interruption <BR>
mechanism to give a to and throw feel. It should graft straight onto <BR>
CT and the back of the rules have tables of weapons and armour.<BR>
<BR>
>So how does ACQ compare?<BR>
<BR>
APP calculated.<BR>
<BR>
Players take turns lowest (worst AP) first.<BR>
<BR>
Players with AP can interrupt with an action/reaction task based on <BR>
how many AP the acting player has used.<BR>
<BR>
To hit.<BR>
<BR>
To penetrate.<BR>
<BR>
Instant damage<BR>
<BR>
Explosions<BR>
<BR>
Continuous damage effects<BR>
<BR>
APP reassessment.<BR>
<BR>
Have a look at Table 2 on A1 (in the pull out) for the turn sequence <BR>
in more depth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2712<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2713</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/3/00 6:53:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest        Monday, July 3 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2713<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
Purchaser Advisory for FS PuRSe personal defense system<BR>
RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
Re: Mitsubishi Trepida?<BR>
Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2712<BR>
Body Bunker revisited<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
design request<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: design request<BR>
re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:33:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I have only glanced through T4 combat, but the basic system looks<BR>
>interesting.<BR>
<BR>
What I forgot to mention was that BITS website has a cribsheet for <BR>
combat (a single A4 page) as a PDF, and a summary of T4 armour as a <BR>
PDF (single sheet) which can be downloaded from the Archive page. I <BR>
find the cribsheet useful, but there again, I wrote it. The BITS task <BR>
system (which also equates to CT levels) is also there.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/     -> Archive page<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:50:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>This brings up another.  What is the typical length of a <BR>
>game session formost TMLers?  I'm' curious, as our weekly<BR>
>meets tend to run about 5 hours.Is this the norm?<BR>
<BR>
I haven't been in a face to face game for a few years, but<BR>
five hours is pretty typical in my experience.<BR>
<BR>
My earlier email about Doug's and my games was actually<BR>
intended for the Traveller in SF list; my apologies for the<BR>
wasted bandwidth here.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:53:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>Doug Berry will be running a game in San Francisco about<BR>
>>monthly, but I think it's full (CT rules). <BR>
><BR>
>Um, Glenn?  That's *GT* <BR>
<BR>
Mea culpa; typographical error (errorem typographicem?) <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:53:59 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
At 17:34 -0400 3/7/00, Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk>wrote:<BR>
>Sorry bout that, I should know better, I pay for my net connections and<BR>
>calls 8-)<BR>
<BR>
Me too ! (also in UK)<BR>
<BR>
At least you edited it, unlike the horrible messes Outlook usually produces..<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:24:49 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
My ex-wife did the same Kiri, so i believe you!<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 4:15 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Even a beer can can be made into a perfectly serviceable<BR>
> > pipe by an already drunk twenty-something.  (Well, when my<BR>
> > generation was twenty-something, we were pretty<BR>
> > resourceful.)<BR>
><BR>
> My brother has been known to make them out of the cardboard tubes t.p. is<BR>
> rolled around, screens from out of the faucet, and aluminum foil.  I shit<BR>
> you not.  Then he wonders how come my mother figures out what they are<BR>
> when she sees them in the trash.  Um... only a person on drugs would do<BR>
> this!<BR>
><BR>
> Kiri<BR>
><BR>
****************************************************************************<BR>
**<BR>
> Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
> tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
><BR>
> "If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
> If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
> Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
> Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
> Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
> Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:14:03 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: taking damage in CT<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>> 	I still put a character down if one stat goes to 0, for 10<BR>
>> 	minutes or until someone makes a roll of 8+ on 2D+Medical.<BR>
>> 	This is Hollywood unconsciousness (no risk of death, rapid<BR>
>> 	recovery).  With two stats to 0 you will not die if unattended,<BR>
>> 	but you may take further damage if someone moves you without<BR>
>> 	great care.  You wake up after an hour, and need medical care<BR>
>> 	(splinting bones, stitches, etc.) before recovery is possible.<BR>
>> 	Three to zero means that you are mortally wounded, but may be<BR>
>> 	saved by prompt medical assistance (depending on promptness,<BR>
>> 	TL, skill, conditions, End, damage in excess of total hits, etc.)<BR>
>> 	I guess that's pretty much by the book.<BR>
>> Peez<BR>
>I agree with this. The first hit is a shock that the body may not be<BR>
>prepared for, and thus the character can go under.  Assuming that character<BR>
>does not 'go into shock', my assumption is, though wounded, the adrenaline<BR>
>is now flowing and the character is now 'steeled'.  One need only look at<BR>
>incidents such as the FBI shootout in Florida to see how a highly motivated<BR>
>individual can continue to fight despite grievous or even 'fatal' wounds.<BR>
>IIRC, Mattox continues to give highly effective fire after being struck by<BR>
>several bullets, one of which pierced the aorta.  Police detailing the scene<BR>
>were able to trace his movements from the arterial spray.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	We seem to be on different wavelengths here.  I was talking about the<BR>
	consequences of stats going to 0, rather than the distribution of<BR>
	damage.  Actually, I put all damage from any hit on a single stat as<BR>
	much as possible.  Sure, people have been known to keep on going in<BR>
	spite of wounds that will be shortly fatal (and might have been<BR>
	quickly fatal under other circumstances), but this may happen with<BR>
	any hit (not just hits after the first, as implied by the CT rules).<BR>
	It is a subtlety that is not dealt with by most RPG systems, including<BR>
	CT.  I allow for it in Runequest and Morrow Project, but have never<BR>
	worried about it in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:29:13 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>I'm not particularly found of the 3D-8 myself, but as no one IMTU ever uses<BR>
>these weapons, I haven't bothered to alter the damage.<BR>
<BR>
	What about those under-equiped NPCs?  :)<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>It also adds some variety to weapons families.  IMTU, we have the gauss<BR>
>pistol, gauss carbine and gauss rifle. They do, respectively, 4D-2, 4D-1 and<BR>
>4D damage.  The character must trade off damage for conceal ability.<BR>
<BR>
	I do something the same, though I cannot recall the damage levels<BR>
	just now (3D+1 for gauss pistol rings a bell).<BR>
<BR>
>Further, adding or subtracting whole dice doesn't just alter damage<BR>
>radically, it skews the whole probability bell curve.  Taking the above<BR>
>example, adding a point moves the average, minimum and maximum damage up or<BR>
>down 1 point without altering the probability distribution<BR>
>Die roll	Minimum	Average	Maxi<BR>
>4D-2		2		12		22<BR>
>4D-1		3		13		23<BR>
>4D		4		14		24<BR>
>3D		3		10,11		18<BR>
>2D		2		7		14<BR>
>Note how with changing number of dice, the whole distribution gets changed.<BR>
<BR>
	In particular, adding dice makes the highest and lowest results<BR>
	more different and rarer.  I don't generally roll more than 3D, I'd<BR>
	rather roll 2Dx2 than 4D.  That gives me a 1 in 36 chance of rolling<BR>
	24, as opposed to 1 in 1296 with 4D.  If you want some really<BR>
	interesting distributions, try something like 1Dx1D:<BR>
		mean (average) = 12.25<BR>
		median (midpoint) = 10<BR>
		minimum = 1<BR>
		maximum = 36.<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway, just my .02 Cr.  YMMV<BR>
<BR>
	Thanks for the input.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 08:36:40 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Purchaser Advisory for FS PuRSe personal defense system<BR>
<BR>
Recent data has indicated a potential issue with the FS PuRSe personal<BR>
defense system.<BR>
<BR>
If used in a world with a denser than standard atmosphere, the possibility<BR>
exists of premature detonation if the SEFOP warhead travels at maximum<BR>
velocity for more than approximately 1.4 kilometers.<BR>
<BR>
This occours because the SEFOP warhead heats up from air resistance,<BR>
possibly triggering the detonation mechanism.<BR>
<BR>
This warranty is void unless specifically required by local law.<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam - with us, safety comes first, second and third<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:24:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: CT damage DMs<BR>
<BR>
> >I'm not particularly found of the 3D-8 myself, but as no one<BR>
> IMTU ever uses<BR>
> >these weapons, I haven't bothered to alter the damage.<BR>
><BR>
> 	What about those under-equipped NPCs?  :)<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the typical body-pistol user.  Mugger vs. battle-hardened mercenary.<BR>
NPCs like this leave the field feet-first.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:43:26 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Mitsubishi Trepida?<BR>
<BR>
Watch out for the concealed fusion gun...the anti-theft tech Mitsubishi<BR>
is installing these days is pretty good....<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On the way to work this morning, I walked past some parked<BR>
> cars, one of which was a Mitsubishi Trepida.  That can't be<BR>
> right, I thought, so I took a second look.  In fact, it was<BR>
> a Mitsubishi Tredia, and my mind had just chosen to read<BR>
> Tredia as Trepida.  Well, that's my ob Traveller for today.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
> http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:42:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
> Okay - ACQ is hung around the T4 rules system and is an evolution of<BR>
> the combat system.<BR>
><BR>
[snip - lots of cool acq stuff]<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Hate to be a bother, Dom, but perhaps you or someone else on the list can<BR>
explain something for me.<BR>
<BR>
If I understand correctly, damage applied to a target is reduced by armor.<BR>
Rigid armor nullifies a die, and flexible armor reduces a die by 1.  I<BR>
assume there is some AV attached to different armor types so that armor may<BR>
effect 1, 2 or possibly more dice.<BR>
<BR>
Question 1:  What is the typical AV of say a CES or combat armor?<BR>
<BR>
Question 2:  How does one adjust for weapons or ammunition that have<BR>
enhanced or reduced penetration.<BR>
<BR>
Example:  A rifle does 3D damage.  Assuming soft armor with an AV of 2, this<BR>
would mean damage is reduced to 1D+2 (I don't know if these example are<BR>
valid for T4/ACQ, so correct them if I'm wrong).  Now what happens if the<BR>
rifle is loaded with AP ammunition?  Bal and AP are relatively identical as<BR>
far as their ability to produce wounds, but AP has much better penetration.<BR>
<BR>
Example2:  Shotgun firing buckshot vs. shotgun firing SCMITR fhechettes.<BR>
Round .30 cal buck is a terrible penetrater, but quite destructive.  SCMITR<BR>
is an awesome penetrater (flying razorblade) and decidedly lethal.  How does<BR>
one distinguish between the two for damage purposes?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:56:03 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2712<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
Got to go for awhile, check ya later!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:50:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
Some time back, there was a discussion about the merits of the shield (body<BR>
bunker) and its utility in shipboard combat.  My wife has a few suggestion<BR>
for the bunker to increase its utility, and I'm curious to know the List's<BR>
thoughts.<BR>
<BR>
Given that a TL 7 body bunker can stop an armor piercing round from a rifle<BR>
at around 12 kg of mass (American Body Armor builds such an item for use by<BR>
law enforcement), she suggested adding wheels (this is done now) and fitting<BR>
a concussion charge to the face--something like the Accuracy Systems<BR>
ThunderStrip.  Starship actions are ordinarily going to be very messing<BR>
given all the 'killing funnels' that exist.  Would such a body bunker be<BR>
effective in T4, CT or other systems? Thoughts on it's use as an offensive<BR>
or defensive item.<BR>
<BR>
Ian, you now have wheels (and possibly power assist)  Can we now build a<BR>
bunker that's actually useful?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:05:55 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
"sorry had a misjump"....what is the celestial bureaucracy going to do...not <BR>
let you back into the subsector via their SDBs.....the ones that guard <BR>
against virus...which is what they are instructed to do if such an occasion <BR>
arises.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
_smiling serenely_<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:08:29 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
<BR>
Ive just downloaded H&E...any tips on quick ways to get started or things to <BR>
definitely watch out for?  Vs trial and error and lengthy figure-it-out times?<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:14:05 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
No, I had'nt checked out Section 9 at Solsec.org.......nice stuff <BR>
initially...secret security stuff...cool<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the look out<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:01:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: design request<BR>
<BR>
I've received only one actual design, though several people expressed<BR>
interest. And that design was received 3 weeks ago. From Pinkerdoo.<BR>
<BR>
So unless I hear that one of the other designers is actually working on<BR>
it, I'll post the only design in a few days.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 20:06, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I hate the CT combined roll (armor effects hit probability).  We have our<BR>
> >own house rules for dealing with it.<BR>
> <BR>
> I know what you mean - it's one of the parts I mildly dislike about CT.<BR>
<BR>
It's my major problem with CT. You can get some really strange results <BR>
from that combined table. The other thing that annoys me is that I have <BR>
no other system to replace it with (as I like the Striker/MT system at <BR>
least as little). Thus when I do Traveller I use TNE (besides it has <BR>
other things I like).<BR>
 <BR>
Hopefully ACQ will solve this problem, as Ct has so many other cool <BR>
things.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 12:32, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Even a beer can can be made into a perfectly serviceable<BR>
> pipe by an already drunk twenty-something.  (Well, when my<BR>
> generation was twenty-something, we were pretty<BR>
> resourceful.)<BR>
<BR>
Making ice bongs from 1.5L Coke plastic bottles was the major <BR>
occupation of my age cohort at twenty-something.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:12:48 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
Referees with campaigns dealing with active duty ground forces might<BR>
want to check this site out for a template of how to write unit<BR>
histories:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/OrgHist.htm<BR>
<BR>
This site includes reasons for compiling an official unit history, a<BR>
format for unit histories, and other useful information.  It also<BR>
provides useful illustrations of unit histories, which Traveller<BR>
referees can modify for use in their campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
Those TMLers who have served in the armed forces of their nation will<BR>
already understand how a unit's lineage can inspire its current<BR>
members.  Those who have not served can find out just how powerful a<BR>
unit's history can be to its members.<BR>
<BR>
"Strength Thru Intelligence" [the motto of the 519th Military<BR>
Intelligence Battalion (Airborne) (Tactical Exploitation)]<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:22:00 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: design request<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I've received only one actual design, though several people expressed<BR>
> interest. And that design was received 3 weeks ago. From Pinkerdoo.<BR>
> <BR>
> So unless I hear that one of the other designers is actually working on<BR>
> it, I'll post the only design in a few days.<BR>
<BR>
Mine's been on hold for a while, because I like to let designs simmer in<BR>
my subconscious until they're ready.  However, your deadline has moved<BR>
this project to the front burner.  Expect my proposal before the end of<BR>
the week. <BR>
<BR>
John Groth<BR>
Lead Designer<BR>
AuricTech Shipyards<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:10:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: re:  looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
At 02:53 PM 7/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Mea culpa; typographical error (errorem typographicem?) <BR>
<BR>
But is it a mammal?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:12:57<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
At 03:39 PM 7/3/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>As one who remembers when the Great Old One of the TML, Doug "penguin boy"<BR>
>Berry joined the list, I think a tougher standard is required. <BR>
<BR>
Which time?  I first joined the list in early 93, lost my access for about<BR>
a year, then came back.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 18:26:16<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:42 PM 7/3/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Question 1:  What is the typical AV of say a CES or combat armor?<BR>
<BR>
Combat Environment Suit: 5 Flexible<BR>
<BR>
Combat Armor-10 Rigid<BR>
<BR>
>Question 2:  How does one adjust for weapons or ammunition that have<BR>
>enhanced or reduced penetration.<BR>
><BR>
>Example:  A rifle does 3D damage.  Assuming soft armor with an AV of 2, this<BR>
>would mean damage is reduced to 1D+2 (I don't know if these example are<BR>
>valid for T4/ACQ, so correct them if I'm wrong).  Now what happens if the<BR>
>rifle is loaded with AP ammunition?  Bal and AP are relatively identical as<BR>
>far as their ability to produce wounds, but AP has much better penetration.<BR>
<BR>
AP ammo halves the effects of armor, and damage dice done after<BR>
penetration. (round down.)  So the round would be reduced from 3D to 2D by<BR>
the armor, and then halved again for the AP round.  The final damage is 1D.<BR>
<BR>
>Example2:  Shotgun firing buckshot vs. shotgun firing SCMITR fhechettes.<BR>
>Round .30 cal buck is a terrible penetrater, but quite destructive.  SCMITR<BR>
>is an awesome penetrater (flying razorblade) and decidedly lethal.  How does<BR>
>one distinguish between the two for damage purposes?<BR>
<BR>
Buckshot is handled under the autofire.multiple projectile rules.  I'm not<BR>
familiar with the round you describe, but applying the basic rules for AP<BR>
rounds would seem to be a good solution.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:46:45 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
At 4:07 PM -0400 7/3/00, Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
>When I signed my Enlistment and Commissioning papers, I was well aware of<BR>
>the following fact: If I desired to leave at some point after my minimum<BR>
>committment was up, the service might still "retain me" based on the "needs<BR>
>of the Navy."   This has actually happened to some of my fellow officers<BR>
>over the past year.<BR>
<BR>
Did you have a choice?  Seems like I recall something about contracts<BR>
not being valid if you are forced into signing them.  Also, something<BR>
about one party having overwhelming power (US Gov't v. one citizen).<BR>
<BR>
>-You are paid (albeit at a rate less than that of an equivalent civilian)<BR>
>-You are advanced in rank and status, generally commensurate with your<BR>
>performance and ability<BR>
>-You are not isolate from family or friends without respite<BR>
>-You continue to legitimately function in society<BR>
>-You cannot be sold<BR>
>-You enjoy special protections of your rights and exemptions from local laws<BR>
>(taxation, voting, etc...) not afforded to civilians<BR>
>-You enjoy the benefits of the rule of law<BR>
>-You enjoy free medical, psychological and legal care<BR>
>-You are provided free housing and food of above average quality<BR>
<BR>
But unlike being a civilian, you can't quit.  Personally, with a wife<BR>
about to have a baby and a job I like, I'd be fairly put out if the<BR>
government decided to draft me.  I certainly wouldn't feel free...<BR>
<BR>
>Conscription amounts to a restriction of freedom, but to a lesser degree<BR>
>than that implied by the term "slavery."  The distinction in having two<BR>
>nouns representing each concept implies that they are distinct conceptual<BR>
>entities.<BR>
><BR>
>Finally, concerning the constitutionality of the draft in the U.S., has it<BR>
>ever been taken to the Supreme Court?<BR>
<BR>
If it has, then allowing the draft required some creative interpretation<BR>
since it is pretty clearly unconstitutional.  I also suspect that our<BR>
founding fathers would have found involuntary service in the military<BR>
to be a bad thing.  At least in a federal military service.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 18:49, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You can get a good feel for the basics of the T4 system from ACQ. <BR>
> It's actually the version of Traveller I prefer most for combat (CT - too<BR>
> many tables and I don't like the combined role, MT - too complex when you<BR>
> head for autofire and TNE too many dice ;-) )<BR>
<BR>
I never found MTs autofire rules complex, I just didn't like the armour <BR>
system or the ease with which a half0decent shot could get x2 or x4 <BR>
damage hits almost every time.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This brings up another.  What is the typical length of a game session for<BR>
> most TMLers?  I'm' curious, as our weekly meets tend to run about 5 hours.<BR>
> Is this the norm?<BR>
<BR>
Used to be about 6-8 hours, but is currently 0, as I haven't played in <BR>
or run a Traveller game for over a year. SF rpgs just don't seem to be <BR>
as popular as fantasy with my people, and with D&D3 coming out next <BR>
month I'm not anticipating any changes in this.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 12:42, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
> >Gauss rifles are, in general, horribly unbalancing, and about the worst<BR>
> >feature of Book 4. As for laser rifles, well they're great for sniping,<BR>
> >but IIRC they're very delicate, so I wouldn't want to be using one that<BR>
> >close. It just gives the ref an excuse to trash a very expensive piece of<BR>
> >kit.<BR>
> <BR>
>  I tend to agree.  The other thing that laser weapons are good for is<BR>
>  zero-G combat, but the other thing that limits them is reflec armour<BR>
>  (which makes you almost immune to laser fire).<BR>
<BR>
So does Combat Armour, and Ablat isn't too bad, either. In actual fact <BR>
CT lasers are fairly similar to TNE lasers in armour penetration <BR>
(perhaps I should've put that the other way around). It's the <BR>
Striker/MT lasers that could actually be useful GP military weapons.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2713<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2714</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/3/00 10:27:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2714<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: risk perception<BR>
re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: design request<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
RE: design request<BR>
RE: RE Point-blank<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers <BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 16:07, Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> -You are paid (albeit at a rate less than that of an equivalent civilian)<BR>
> -You are advanced in rank and status, generally commensurate with your<BR>
> performance and ability -You are not isolate from family or friends<BR>
> without respite -You continue to legitimately function in society -You<BR>
> cannot be sold -You enjoy special protections of your rights and<BR>
> exemptions from local laws (taxation, voting, etc...) not afforded to<BR>
> civilians -You enjoy the benefits of the rule of law -You enjoy free<BR>
> medical, psychological and legal care -You are provided free housing and<BR>
> food of above average quality<BR>
<BR>
This isn't a bad list of befits that domestic and skilled slaves <BR>
enjoyed in the late Roman Empire, BTW. Of course those who were <BR>
unskilled ended up in tin mines or on slave farms, and their life was <BR>
far less pleasant.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:09:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 11:21, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I hate the CT combined roll (armor effects hit probability).  We have our<BR>
> own house rules for dealing with it.  My worry in looking at new systems<BR>
> for resolving combat is that they can very easily become too complex.<BR>
> Anyone on the TML ever play Aftermath.  It had an immense flowchart for<BR>
> resolving damage.<BR>
<BR>
I have, and rather liked it. Please note that most games of any <BR>
complexity at all can end up with flow-charts nearly as long. However <BR>
very few other games want to admit that, so they don't include one, no <BR>
matter how useful it might be.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS CompendiumII has a combat checklist that takes up 4 pages, and <BR>
would probably have been easier to use if it had been made up as a flow-<BR>
chart, though it probably would've used more like 6 pages then.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:05:39 +1000 <BR>
From: Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
We run for about 2 - 3 hours.  We are all christians who have to varying<BR>
degrees a disliking for the magic in AD&D, so we have chosen to play<BR>
traveller for that and the sci-fi kewl element. So far i love it.<BR>
<BR>
Timothy L.<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn [mailto:rboleyn@paradise.net.nz]<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, 4 July 2000 11:10<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> This brings up another.  What is the typical length of a game session for<BR>
> most TMLers?  I'm' curious, as our weekly meets tend to run about 5 hours.<BR>
> Is this the norm?<BR>
<BR>
Used to be about 6-8 hours, but is currently 0, as I haven't played in <BR>
or run a Traveller game for over a year. SF rpgs just don't seem to be <BR>
as popular as fantasy with my people, and with D&D3 coming out next <BR>
month I'm not anticipating any changes in this.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:08:00 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
At 06:50 PM 07/03/2000, you wrote:<BR>
>Some time back, there was a discussion about the merits of the shield (body<BR>
>bunker) and its utility in shipboard combat.  My wife has a few suggestion<BR>
>for the bunker to increase its utility, and I'm curious to know the List's<BR>
>thoughts.<BR>
><BR>
>Given that a TL 7 body bunker can stop an armor piercing round from a rifle<BR>
>at around 12 kg of mass (American Body Armor builds such an item for use by<BR>
>law enforcement), she suggested adding wheels (this is done now) and fitting<BR>
>a concussion charge to the face--something like the Accuracy Systems<BR>
>ThunderStrip.  Starship actions are ordinarily going to be very messing<BR>
>given all the 'killing funnels' that exist.  Would such a body bunker be<BR>
>effective in T4, CT or other systems? Thoughts on it's use as an offensive<BR>
>or defensive item.<BR>
><BR>
>Ian, you now have wheels (and possibly power assist)  Can we now build a<BR>
>bunker that's actually useful?<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
Tod,<BR>
<BR>
I have used what you called the body bunker in Shadowrun but it was a two <BR>
man? operation. Take 2+ inch steel armor plate, put nice curve on it <BR>
similar to the Roman Legion full body shield. The body bunker is as wide a <BR>
cybered troll's shoulder's(mine), install two sets of handles each with <BR>
double trigger mechanisms, sets directional mines, triggered only by both <BR>
sets of triggers being pressed. Second operator is cybered dwarf(James M.). <BR>
Both operators were wearing full heavy armored boots with hobnails for <BR>
stomping on any wounded, as they moved thru. One set of mines triggered at <BR>
each activation.<BR>
<BR>
It worked very well in the scenario that it was needed in, a very tough lab <BR>
complex. Killed the main bad guy before he could develop a defense against it.<BR>
<BR>
In a starship corridor one would need a lot of mass behind it though, if <BR>
your DM allows Grav Pong, not a good thing to try.<G><BR>
<BR>
With some of my players, they would still would use a weapon capable of <BR>
penetrating the body bunker, like a Splat Gun.<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
Redkneck Arms and Munitions. RAAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:17:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/3/00 6:26 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> Example2:  Shotgun firing buckshot vs. shotgun firing SCMITR fhechettes.<BR>
>> Round .30 cal buck is a terrible penetrater, but quite destructive.  SCMITR<BR>
>> is an awesome penetrater (flying razorblade) and decidedly lethal.  How does<BR>
>> one distinguish between the two for damage purposes?<BR>
> <BR>
> Buckshot is handled under the autofire.multiple projectile rules.  I'm not<BR>
> familiar with the round you describe, but applying the basic rules for AP<BR>
> rounds would seem to be a good solution.<BR>
<BR>
SCMITR is probably one of the most lethal shotgun projectiles ever<BR>
developed.  There is an entry on the weapons site under ammunition<BR>
(http://weapons.travellercentral.com).<BR>
<BR>
SCMITR was a derivative of the shotgun flechette that came out of the Army's<BR>
SALVO program.  Unlike high velocity rifle flechettes, shotgun flechettes<BR>
don't hook or tumble and have only a fraction of the energy (600 m/s vs. the<BR>
rifles 1500 m/s)  In fact, AAI determined that a shotgun flechette's wound<BR>
track was directly proportional to the width of the tail fins.<BR>
<BR>
Based on this data, AAI produced the SCMITR flechette (I have no idea what<BR>
this acronym stands for).  This flechette was made from a thin stamping of<BR>
mild steel.  The point was thicker than the trailing edges for mass<BR>
stabilization, and flat tail had canted tips to induce spin.  The flechette<BR>
formed a broad flat surface with a tail width of over 10mm.  In live animal<BR>
test, the projectile highly effective, cutting long spiral tracks, severing<BR>
blood vessels and other tissue. 8-12 projectiles were help in each shell in<BR>
a plastic sabot.  The projectile was dangerous out past 1000 meters, and<BR>
would penetrate a US steel helmet or fragmentation vest at 500 meters.<BR>
<BR>
The simple construction of the flechette meant that it could be made at a<BR>
cost comparable to conventional buckshot ammunition.  Sadly, the army<BR>
decided not to adopt the cartridge, and it has little utility outside of the<BR>
military.<BR>
<BR>
This round make the shotgun a 500+ meter combat weapons, and certainly makes<BR>
it a better armor penetrator AND killer than the standard 00 Buck<BR>
ammunition.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:43:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 19:17, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> SCMITR was a derivative of the shotgun flechette that came out of the<BR>
> Army's SALVO program.  Unlike high velocity rifle flechettes, shotgun<BR>
> flechettes don't hook or tumble and have only a fraction of the energy<BR>
> (600 m/s vs. the rifles 1500 m/s)  In fact, AAI determined that a shotgun<BR>
> flechette's wound track was directly proportional to the width of the tail<BR>
> fins.<BR>
> <BR>
> Based on this data, AAI produced the SCMITR flechette (I have no idea what<BR>
> this acronym stands for).  This flechette was made from a thin stamping of<BR>
> mild steel.  The point was thicker than the trailing edges for mass<BR>
> stabilization, and flat tail had canted tips to induce spin.  The<BR>
> flechette formed a broad flat surface with a tail width of over 10mm.  In<BR>
> live animal test, the projectile highly effective, cutting long spiral<BR>
> tracks, severing blood vessels and other tissue. 8-12 projectiles were<BR>
> help in each shell in a plastic sabot.  The projectile was dangerous out<BR>
> past 1000 meters, and would penetrate a US steel helmet or fragmentation<BR>
> vest at 500 meters.<BR>
> <BR>
> The simple construction of the flechette meant that it could be made at a<BR>
> cost comparable to conventional buckshot ammunition.  Sadly, the army<BR>
> decided not to adopt the cartridge, and it has little utility outside of<BR>
> the military.<BR>
> <BR>
> This round make the shotgun a 500+ meter combat weapons, and certainly<BR>
> makes it a better armor penetrator AND killer than the standard 00 Buck<BR>
> ammunition.<BR>
<BR>
One nit: With that low velocity while they may have had good <BR>
penetration and wounding characteristics at long ranges, their <BR>
tracjectory would be quite steep, so the gun would need a good set of <BR>
soghts, and at long ranges users experience would be very important. <BR>
Back-of-envelope clacualtions suggest a drop of over 12 feet, or a mid-<BR>
range peak of about 3 feet above LOS. This is into the area where <BR>
fairly minor mistakes in range estimation result in misses. Another <BR>
factor (not that I would expect this to matter for at least 600m) is <BR>
how stable they are as they drop through the sound barrier and become <BR>
subsonic. I suspect they probably wouldn't be, so at that range they'd <BR>
become pretty much useless. However all this said out to 300-500m they <BR>
sound pretty good (mind you a good type of slug fired from a shotgun <BR>
with decent sights will often give about 2" groups and be useful to at <BR>
least 200m).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:43:46 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 20:46, Bolie Williams IV wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If it has, then allowing the draft required some creative interpretation<BR>
> since it is pretty clearly unconstitutional.  I also suspect that our<BR>
> founding fathers would have found involuntary service in the military to<BR>
> be a bad thing.  At least in a federal military service.<BR>
<BR>
Considering that the original federal government had no ability to <BR>
raise an army (which I do not belive was an oversight), I'd say you'd <BR>
be right. While there were no "official" winner of the 1812 war I <BR>
reckon that the US Federal government was the real winner - it gained <BR>
the ability to tax and the ability to raise an army independent of its <BR>
member states.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:43:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
>If it has, then allowing the draft required some creative interpretation<BR>
since it is pretty clearly unconstitutional.  I also suspect that our<BR>
founding fathers would have found involuntary service in the military<BR>
to be a bad thing.  At least in a federal military service.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<<BR>
<BR>
Errr...<BR>
The Founding Fathers found that some people were only equal to 3/5ths of<BR>
other people.<BR>
That being said, it should be noted that Libertarians and certain other<BR>
literalists do indeed consider a draft of any sort to constitute involuntary<BR>
servitude. I don't agree (and neither did Kipling!) but they are entitled to<BR>
their beliefs.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:52:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
>Making ice bongs from 1.5L Coke plastic bottles was the<BR>
>major occupation of my age cohort at twenty-something.<BR>
<BR>
This thread is reminding me of Harry Harrison's book<BR>
entitled something like The Lifeship or The Lifeboat. <BR>
There are drug addicts called tonkies who use paper to<BR>
ingest the drug, which is either never named or I've<BR>
forgotten the name.  They (tonkies) occur in my Traveller<BR>
universe from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
"A bit of paper, honor sir, could you spare just a bit of<BR>
paper?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:58:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
><BR>
>Those TMLers who have served in the armed forces of their<BR>
>nation will already understand how a unit's lineage can <BR>
>inspire its current members.  Those who have not served <BR>
>can find out just how powerful a unit's history can be to <BR>
>its members.<BR>
<BR>
Not an exact quotation:<BR>
<BR>
"So you calculated that if you charged the Chinese forces,<BR>
you would surprise them and be able to defeat them?"<BR>
<BR>
"No, sir, my analysis showed that I would not achieve<BR>
tactical surprise by charging from my position, that I was<BR>
heavily outgunned by the Chinese, and would be destroyed."<BR>
<BR>
"Then did you analysis show what in fact happened, that<BR>
your charge would break their morale and they would run?"<BR>
<BR>
"No, sir.  I calculated the opposite, that they would<BR>
remain and fight."<BR>
<BR>
"Why, then, did you charge?"<BR>
<BR>
"I did it for the glory of the regiment."<BR>
<BR>
- --Concluding interview with Unit _ _ _ of the line, 7th<BR>
Cavalry Regiment, United States Army, in one of Keith<BR>
Laumer's Bolo stories set early in the Bolo history<BR>
<BR>
"Then your analysis was that if you charged you would <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:33:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: design request<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I've received only one actual design, though several people expressed<BR>
>> interest. And that design was received 3 weeks ago. From Pinkerdoo.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> So unless I hear that one of the other designers is actually working on<BR>
>> it, I'll post the only design in a few days.<BR>
><BR>
> Mine's been on hold for a while, because I like to let designs simmer in<BR>
> my subconscious until they're ready.  However, your deadline has moved<BR>
> this project to the front burner.  Expect my proposal before the end of<BR>
> the week. <BR>
<BR>
Ok, can do. <BR>
<BR>
Umbral Universal Utility Units (4U) appreciates your input.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> John Groth<BR>
> Lead Designer<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards<BR>
><BR>
> -- <BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
><BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:42:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> "sorry had a misjump"....what is the celestial bureaucracy going to do...not <BR>
> let you back into the subsector via their SDBs.....the ones that guard <BR>
> against virus...which is what they are instructed to do if such an occasion <BR>
> arises.<BR>
<BR>
And how do they *know* you were ever *out* of the area until you land<BR>
and tell them. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:45:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 4:07 PM -0400 7/3/00, Dan Lane wrote:<BR>
>>When I signed my Enlistment and Commissioning papers, I was well aware of<BR>
>>the following fact: If I desired to leave at some point after my minimum<BR>
>>committment was up, the service might still "retain me" based on the "needs<BR>
>>of the Navy."   This has actually happened to some of my fellow officers<BR>
>>over the past year.<BR>
><BR>
> Did you have a choice?  Seems like I recall something about contracts<BR>
> not being valid if you are forced into signing them.  Also, something<BR>
> about one party having overwhelming power (US Gov't v. one citizen).<BR>
<BR>
He had a choice when he signed. Nobody *forced* him to enlist.<BR>
<BR>
>>-You are paid (albeit at a rate less than that of an equivalent civilian)<BR>
>>-You are advanced in rank and status, generally commensurate with your<BR>
>>performance and ability<BR>
>>-You are not isolate from family or friends without respite<BR>
>>-You continue to legitimately function in society<BR>
>>-You cannot be sold<BR>
>>-You enjoy special protections of your rights and exemptions from local laws<BR>
>>(taxation, voting, etc...) not afforded to civilians<BR>
>>-You enjoy the benefits of the rule of law<BR>
>>-You enjoy free medical, psychological and legal care<BR>
>>-You are provided free housing and food of above average quality<BR>
><BR>
> But unlike being a civilian, you can't quit.  Personally, with a wife<BR>
> about to have a baby and a job I like, I'd be fairly put out if the<BR>
> government decided to draft me.  I certainly wouldn't feel free...<BR>
<BR>
A contractual relationship isn't like a job. You can't just quit. If<BR>
you've got a contract with someone to do something, you can't quit<BR>
until you've fulfilled the terms of the contract. If you do, the<BR>
penalty clauses take effect. If there weren't any, they can take you to<BR>
court and have you *forced* to comply with the contract unless the<BR>
terms were illegal. <BR>
<BR>
The only outs are if the terms are "contrary to the public good" or<BR>
impossible to fulfill. Not wanting to fulfill the terms doesn't count.<BR>
<BR>
>>Conscription amounts to a restriction of freedom, but to a lesser degree<BR>
>>than that implied by the term "slavery."  The distinction in having two<BR>
>>nouns representing each concept implies that they are distinct conceptual<BR>
>>entities.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Finally, concerning the constitutionality of the draft in the U.S., has it<BR>
>>ever been taken to the Supreme Court?<BR>
><BR>
> If it has, then allowing the draft required some creative interpretation<BR>
> since it is pretty clearly unconstitutional.  I also suspect that our<BR>
> founding fathers would have found involuntary service in the military<BR>
> to be a bad thing.  At least in a federal military service.<BR>
<BR>
The well known quote that "Freedom of speech does not extend to<BR>
shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theater" was part the decision in a case<BR>
where the defendant was arrested for publicly arguing that the draft<BR>
was illegal.<BR>
<BR>
The fact that they upheld the arrest and conviction of someone who was<BR>
merely *speaking out* against the draft (and encouraging people not to<BR>
co-operate with it) should make it pretty clear how they'd have ruled<BR>
if he was actual guilty of *resisting* it...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:20:49 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/3/00 7:43 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> One nit: With that low velocity while they may have had good<BR>
> penetration and wounding characteristics at long ranges, their<BR>
> tracjectory would be quite steep, so the gun would need a good set of<BR>
> soghts, and at long ranges users experience would be very important.<BR>
<BR>
Recall that each shell launches 14 projectile, and patterns tended to remain<BR>
relatively dense even at long range (that is, dense for a shotgun).  ALCLAD<BR>
and the Hitchman report tell us that maximum combat range is really only 500<BR>
meters, with 90% of fire at 300 metes or less, and 60% at 75 meters or less.<BR>
At longer ranges there is a definite ballistic arc, but multiple projectile<BR>
mean a higher likelihood of hit.<BR>
<BR>
At shorter ranges, the shotgun comes into its own.  According to the SALVO<BR>
study "within its operational envelope, no other infantry weapon approaches<BR>
the shotgun in term of high probability first round hit, high probability of<BR>
kill".<BR>
<BR>
> Back-of-envelope clacualtions suggest a drop of over 12 feet, or a mid-<BR>
> range peak of about 3 feet above LOS. This is into the area where<BR>
> fairly minor mistakes in range estimation result in misses. Another<BR>
> factor (not that I would expect this to matter for at least 600m) is<BR>
> how stable they are as they drop through the sound barrier and become<BR>
> subsonic. I suspect they probably wouldn't be, so at that range they'd<BR>
> become pretty much useless. However all this said out to 300-500m they<BR>
> sound pretty good (mind you a good type of slug fired from a shotgun<BR>
> with decent sights will often give about 2" groups and be useful to at<BR>
> least 200m).<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Rupert, I suggest you take a look at the photo of SCMITR<BR>
(http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/scmitr.gif) to really get a good<BR>
appreciation for just how lethal this baby is.  And a shotgun slug will not<BR>
pierce individual ballistic armor at 500 meters.  The round is specifically<BR>
mentioned in SIPRI's "Anti-personnel weapons"  as being particularly of<BR>
concern.  Anytime you got the peacenik's worried about how nasty a weapons<BR>
is, you know you're really on to something.<BR>
<BR>
Continuous studies by the US Army have consistently shown the shotgun to be<BR>
one of the most effective small arms on the battlefield (The British used<BR>
them to great effect in Malaya as well).  The main factor hampering them is<BR>
lack of range.  00 Buck is generally considered effective only to about 50<BR>
meters.  SCMITR is more lethal than 00 Buck, and is able to defeat armor out<BR>
to 500 meters! <BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:25:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: design request<BR>
<BR>
Hmm..<BR>
<BR>
'.From Pinkerdoo'<BR>
<BR>
Don't know if I like the tone of that.<BR>
<BR>
;><BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 6:02 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: design request<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I've received only one actual design, though several people expressed<BR>
interest. And that design was received 3 weeks ago. From Pinkerdoo.<BR>
<BR>
So unless I hear that one of the other designers is actually working on<BR>
it, I'll post the only design in a few days.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:35:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
I have found that lasers can be quite effective in GT also - lack of recoil<BR>
makes that wild fire just a wee bit more effective in the long run... Also<BR>
the horrid wounds they cause...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 9:43 AM<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: RE Point-blank<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
>Gauss rifles are, in general, horribly unbalancing, and about the worst<BR>
>feature of Book 4. As for laser rifles, well they're great for sniping,<BR>
>but IIRC they're very delicate, so I wouldn't want to be using one that<BR>
>close. It just gives the ref an excuse to trash a very expensive piece<BR>
>of kit.<BR>
<BR>
	I tend to agree.  The other thing that laser weapons are good for is<BR>
	zero-G combat, but the other thing that limits them is reflec armour<BR>
	(which makes you almost immune to laser fire).<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 20:43:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers <BR>
<BR>
Ok time for me to chirp in -<BR>
<BR>
(just so ya'll don't think that I am a GT Newbie)<BR>
<BR>
I got Traveller the day my local toy store/gaming store got the BBB. I ran<BR>
that (and other, heathen systems) for years, until MT came out - I got that,<BR>
and stopped running games for about 3 years. Got back into MT and ran with<BR>
it, but was never satisfied with the combat system. Went back to CT with<BR>
Striker for the combat system (i.e., used the table, charts and wounding<BR>
system from striker.. yeah, it hurt, bullets hurt). During this time, the<BR>
ultra-evil TNE came out. I bought it, and sold it in two weeks. Moved out of<BR>
town, and lost my Gaming Group. T4 came out. I actually bought it, but hated<BR>
it (bought TNE too.. but then just had to complete my collection) GT came<BR>
out and I recoiled in horror.<BR>
<BR>
Then this evil evil person ran me in a gurps game<BR>
<BR>
Now I have 14 inches of Gurps books.<BR>
<BR>
and I am the GT Heretic that I am.<BR>
<BR>
Not a great one, not a young one, just a normal middle aged heretic<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 12:11 PM<BR>
To: traveller mailing aa list<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know if I qualify as a "not so great old one"<BR>
>since  I mainly just lurk around, but I got my feet wet<BR>
>with Double Adventure One when it first came out in 78 or<BR>
>79 and have been keeping up with Traveller ever since.<BR>
>Anyone here been Travelling longer, besides Loren and Mark<BR>
<BR>
>who antedate us all?<BR>
<BR>
There are quite a few us who have been around for a very<BR>
long time.  I first played Traveller soon after it came<BR>
out, when I was in college, in 1977 or '78.  I only became<BR>
involved in the Traveller Mailing List in 1993 or '94, but<BR>
it had been in existence for some time before that.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.<BR>
http://invites.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:39:53 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
>>As one who remembers when the Great Old One of the TML, Doug "penguin boy"<BR>
>>Berry joined the list, I think a tougher standard is required. <BR>
><BR>
>Which time?  I first joined the list in early 93, lost my access for about<BR>
>a year, then came back.<BR>
<BR>
 Gee, I'd already had three different addresses on the TML by then, nearly <BR>
given George Herbert a heart attack, developed the requisite glassy stare <BR>
while reading Catie Helm's TML geochemistry lectures, and watched Rob post <BR>
his credit card info to the list. I was also one of the heartless gits who <BR>
set up the circumstances for the GEnie-TML wars, along with Carl Fago.<BR>
<BR>
 And I know what the cereal company reference means 'cause I read that story <BR>
in its original posting. AH, the memories...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:25:22 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
I remember being very impressed when working on Doctor<BR>
Who<BR>
that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
investment considering<BR>
the cheapness of the prog) researching the insignia for<BR>
the RAF Regiment.<BR>
<BR>
The BBC were really good at anything historical.<BR>
Absolutely crap at<BR>
anything speculative.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Off on a tangent.  While vegging through Yet Another<BR>
Medical Reaction<BR>
> today, I watched _Muppets From Space_.  One of the<BR>
minor characters is a US<BR>
> Army General.  His uniform was *perfect.*  All the<BR>
insignia in the right<BR>
> place, a Ranger tag, Pathfinder wings, even the<BR>
Americal Division combat<BR>
> patch.  On close inspection, his ribbons appeared to<BR>
be in the correct<BR>
> order, and the appropriate ones for a combat<BR>
infantryman!<BR>
><BR>
> The first movie in years that gets it right, and it's<BR>
a Muppet movie.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2714<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2715</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/4/00 9:09:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2715<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
RE: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
RE: risk perception<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
Re: Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:49:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
> Some time back, there was a discussion about the merits of the shield<BR>
(body<BR>
> bunker) and its utility in shipboard combat.  My wife has a few suggestion<BR>
> for the bunker to increase its utility, and I'm curious to know the List's<BR>
> thoughts.<BR>
><BR>
> Given that a TL 7 body bunker can stop an armor piercing round from a<BR>
rifle<BR>
> at around 12 kg of mass (American Body Armor builds such an item for use<BR>
by<BR>
> law enforcement), she suggested adding wheels (this is done now) and<BR>
fitting<BR>
> a concussion charge to the face--something like the Accuracy Systems<BR>
> ThunderStrip.  Starship actions are ordinarily going to be very messing<BR>
> given all the 'killing funnels' that exist.  Would such a body bunker be<BR>
> effective in T4, CT or other systems? Thoughts on it's use as an offensive<BR>
> or defensive item.<BR>
><BR>
> Ian, you now have wheels (and possibly power assist)  Can we now build a<BR>
> bunker that's actually useful?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
How does it cope with stairs, or zero gee ?<BR>
<BR>
This is starship boarding. I'd be expecting things to be dark, zero gee, and<BR>
basically ugly.<BR>
<BR>
Also, as starships are not subject to local law, I'd be expecting<BR>
counter-boarding weapons to include various shaped-charge weapons (would you<BR>
prefer to fix holes in the hull, or be spaced ?).<BR>
<BR>
I think it would be buildable, but I think you need something that stops<BR>
fusion guns in the 20 kilojoule range, rather than assault rifles. Also,<BR>
make a FS PuRSe system standard issue - it's a point-and-shoot rocket, so it<BR>
will have less issues with zero gee than most other things (if firing 40mm<BR>
HEAP warheads on ship worries you, replace the warhead with HE or concussion<BR>
rounds).<BR>
<BR>
Ian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:09:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote :<BR>
> Or do you not agree that a jury trial is a good way to arrive at justice?<BR>
<BR>
I don't.<BR>
<BR>
Just as democracy is not a good way of running a country, leaving any<BR>
decision to a bunch of idiots (which are the only people who are usually<BR>
allowed to serve on juries, once the lawyers have got through eliminating<BR>
all the people who might actually think and won't be swayed by the lawyer's<BR>
rhetoric...) is not a bright idea.<BR>
<BR>
As someone once said, if I was guilty I'd choose a jury trial, if I was<BR>
innocent I'd go for a judge.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:22:35 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Not an exact quotation:<BR>
<BR>
> "Why, then, did you charge?"<BR>
> <BR>
> "I did it for the glory of the regiment."<BR>
> <BR>
> - --Concluding interview with Unit _ _ _ of the line, 7th<BR>
> Cavalry Regiment, United States Army, in one of Keith<BR>
> Laumer's Bolo stories set early in the Bolo history<BR>
<BR>
Say rather<BR>
<BR>
"Why did you do it?"<BR>
<BR>
"For the _honor_ of the regiment."<BR>
<BR>
Unit DNE of the line a Bolo Mark XX Model B of the<BR>
Concordiat (not the US Army)<BR>
in 'Field Test' by Keith Laumer as reprinted in 'Bolo'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:01:18 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
> From: Timothy Minahan <BR>
> We are all christians who have to varying degrees a disliking for the<BR>
> magic in AD&D, so we have chosen to play traveller for that and the<BR>
> sci-fi kewl element. <BR>
<BR>
Funny, I have a mild case of an opposite problem with AD&D magic:  I'm an<BR>
atheist.  I play Traveller because it suits my materialist philosophical<BR>
prejudices.  Oh, and because it's fun.<BR>
<BR>
(OK, I admit I might end up playing AD&D again when 3rd Edition comes out,<BR>
if it's any good.  I don't think Roman style Republics have had their fair<BR>
share of attention yet, and I've got a hankering to run a 'bread and<BR>
circuses' election.  And it might be a low magic game - or maybe not.)<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:57:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
> From: John Groth <BR>
> "Strength Thru Intelligence" [the motto of the 519th Military<BR>
> Intelligence Battalion (Airborne) (Tactical Exploitation)]<BR>
<BR>
Ah.  Obviously CT is wrong then, when it says that a character's hit points<BR>
are its Strength thru Endurance.<BR>
<BR>
Or can Intelligence personnel take more damage?<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:34:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?)<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > If I really believed in game rules the way that Evangelical<BR>
> > Pentecostal minister does I would probably use the analogy that<BR>
> > Kromm is St Peter and Steve Jackson is Yahweh.<BR>
<BR>
> Uuhhhh, better correlation would be Kromm is Jesus Christ and Steve Jackson<BR>
> is God. <BR>
<BR>
In most Christian sects Jesus Christ is _part_ of their God. Kromm<BR>
is not part of Steve Jackson. Hence that analogy is inappropriate. <BR>
This is why I picked St Peter. I am aware that Pentecostals<BR>
do not generally use the term Yahweh but the term God is ambiguous<BR>
and could refer to most any male deity. Therefore when discussing<BR>
him it is more precise to use its proper name. Since my keyboard<BR>
will not handle Hebrew nor do I speak it Yahweh is as close as<BR>
I can get to the proper name of the deity in question. The<BR>
fact that the Pentecostals would not use this term is probably<BR>
due to their monotheistic world view. Since not everyone in the<BR>
world, or on the TML, is Christian I feel it is inappropriate<BR>
of me to use the term 'God' for Yahweh.<BR>
<BR>
> The Pentecostal's I associated with seldom use St. Peter and never<BR>
> use Yahweh.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 04:37:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
>Some time back, there was a discussion about the merits of the shield (body<BR>
>bunker) and its utility in shipboard combat.  My wife has a few suggestion<BR>
>for the bunker to increase its utility, and I'm curious to know the List's<BR>
>thoughts.<BR>
><BR>
>Given that a TL 7 body bunker can stop an armor piercing round from a rifle<BR>
>at around 12 kg of mass (American Body Armor builds such an item for use by<BR>
>law enforcement), she suggested adding wheels (this is done now) and<BR>
fitting<BR>
>a concussion charge to the face--something like the Accuracy Systems<BR>
>ThunderStrip.  Starship actions are ordinarily going to be very messing<BR>
>given all the 'killing funnels' that exist.  Would such a body bunker be<BR>
>effective in T4, CT or other systems? Thoughts on it's use as an offensive<BR>
>or defensive item.<BR>
><BR>
>Ian, you now have wheels (and possibly power assist)  Can we now build a<BR>
>bunker that's actually useful?<BR>
<BR>
It would be possible to lob a grenade over the top or around the edge. This<BR>
would seem to be a major disadvantage. I would imagine that it's not a big<BR>
disadvantage for modern law enforcement types because it's probably rare<BR>
that they go up against bad guys who are lobbing grenades. I'm also<BR>
wondering how awkward such a thing would be given the fact that gravity is a<BR>
variable in starship combat. How would such a thing work under 0G, for<BR>
example. Perhaps it might be desirable to include a contra-gravity module in<BR>
the design to compensate for this.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know, just some thoughts.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:17:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>
> Anyone on the TML ever play Aftermath.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, quite a lot.<BR>
<BR>
> It had an immense flowchart for resolving damage.<BR>
<BR>
I always like to pipe up on this one.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it has a flow chart, but the flow chart is no more complex than similar<BR>
ones for, for instance, AD&D.<BR>
<BR>
Afternmath combat was actually very simple once you got used to it, the only<BR>
reason it _looked_ complex was the flow chart, which included stuff which<BR>
isn't always used.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, it consisted of rolling a single twenty-sided dice against a "to<BR>
hit" number based on skill level, generating an "effect number" which was<BR>
the difference between what you rolled and what you had to roll to succeed.<BR>
For H2H weapons multiply the effect number by the weapon damage multiplier<BR>
for the weapon, determine location, subtract armour and apply damage. Two<BR>
die rolls, which you could  roll at the same time if you wanted, and three<BR>
simple calculations.<BR>
<BR>
More complicated than CT, but with a heck of a lot more detail and<BR>
opportunities for player decisions.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:29:44 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: risk perception<BR>
<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote :<BR>
> On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Even a beer can can be made into a perfectly serviceable<BR>
> > pipe by an already drunk twenty-something.  (Well, when my<BR>
> > generation was twenty-something, we were pretty<BR>
> > resourceful.)<BR>
><BR>
> My brother has been known to make them out of the cardboard tubes t.p. is<BR>
> rolled around, screens from out of the faucet, and aluminum foil.  I shit<BR>
> you not.  Then he wonders how come my mother figures out what they are<BR>
> when she sees them in the trash.  Um... only a person on drugs would do<BR>
> this!<BR>
<BR>
Cigar tubes and crocodile clips was all we ever used.<BR>
<BR>
But Cigar tubes make great hand-cannons as well, as long as you remember not<BR>
to fire while sighting.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:58:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
>><BR>
>>Those TMLers who have served in the armed forces of their<BR>
>>nation will already understand how a unit's lineage can <BR>
>>inspire its current members.  Those who have not served <BR>
>>can find out just how powerful a unit's history can be to <BR>
>>its members.<BR>
><BR>
> Not an exact quotation:<BR>
><BR>
> "So you calculated that if you charged the Chinese forces,<BR>
> you would surprise them and be able to defeat them?"<BR>
><BR>
> "No, sir, my analysis showed that I would not achieve<BR>
> tactical surprise by charging from my position, that I was<BR>
> heavily outgunned by the Chinese, and would be destroyed."<BR>
><BR>
> "Then did you analysis show what in fact happened, that<BR>
> your charge would break their morale and they would run?"<BR>
><BR>
> "No, sir.  I calculated the opposite, that they would<BR>
> remain and fight."<BR>
><BR>
> "Why, then, did you charge?"<BR>
><BR>
> "I did it for the glory of the regiment."<BR>
                    ^honor<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:50:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 17:49, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> I think it would be buildable, but I think you need something that stops<BR>
> fusion guns in the 20 kilojoule range, rather than assault rifles. Also,<BR>
> make a FS PuRSe system standard issue - it's a point-and-shoot rocket, so<BR>
> it will have less issues with zero gee than most other things (if firing<BR>
> 40mm HEAP warheads on ship worries you, replace the warhead with HE or<BR>
> concussion rounds).<BR>
<BR>
For low/zero-G counter boarding situations I wouldn't even bother with <BR>
a rocket - just a small recoiless type launch charge. It's not like the <BR>
ranges are going to be very long, so a low velocity isn't going to <BR>
matter. This way you can make 'em really cheap throw-away weapons that <BR>
you sell the free-tranders by the gross.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:50:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 20:20, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Continuous studies by the US Army have consistently shown the shotgun to<BR>
> be one of the most effective small arms on the battlefield (The British<BR>
> used them to great effect in Malaya as well).  The main factor hampering<BR>
> them is lack of range.  00 Buck is generally considered effective only to<BR>
> about 50 meters.  SCMITR is more lethal than 00 Buck, and is able to<BR>
> defeat armor out to 500 meters! <BR>
<BR>
I'm not arguing that, I'm just a little sceptical of the practicality <BR>
of 500+m hits with it. Note that I'm also sceptical of claims that just <BR>
about any rifle is effective at 500m in the hands of your average <BR>
grunt. Most people just aren't good enough shots to get hits that far <BR>
away in field conditions, and it takes a fair bit of experience to be <BR>
able to accurately estimate ranges much past 200m. However if one were <BR>
to attach a laser range-finder to the weapon system things'd look a lot <BR>
better.<BR>
<BR>
BTW what is the test armour made out of?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:50:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 21:17, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Basically, it consisted of rolling a single twenty-sided dice against a<BR>
> "to hit" number based on skill level, generating an "effect number" which<BR>
> was the difference between what you rolled and what you had to roll to<BR>
> succeed. For H2H weapons multiply the effect number by the weapon damage<BR>
> multiplier for the weapon, determine location, subtract armour and apply<BR>
> damage. Two die rolls, which you could  roll at the same time if you<BR>
> wanted, and three simple calculations.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC there were three rolls, as the effect number for damage was gained <BR>
by rolling a die (or dice) based on your Strength. It's still a lot <BR>
simpler than GURPS' system, even when you leave all the optional bits <BR>
of GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:50:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 22:43, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Errr...<BR>
> The Founding Fathers found that some people were only equal to 3/5ths of<BR>
> other people. That being said, it should be noted that Libertarians and<BR>
> certain other literalists do indeed consider a draft of any sort to<BR>
> constitute involuntary servitude. I don't agree (and neither did Kipling!)<BR>
> but they are entitled to their beliefs.<BR>
<BR>
I feel that a draft is involuntary servitude, however that doesn't <BR>
necessarily make it wrong.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 12:32:07 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Vs: Vs: getting dangerously close to Gun Control<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
>> ...And if you were in charge of starport<BR>
>> security, wouldn't you want the contents of any nuclear damper boxes that<BR>
>> happen to be passing through your gates?<BR>
><BR>
>This makes more sense if you add the words "to know about"<BR>
>between "you want" and "the contents" in the second to last<BR>
>line.<BR>
<BR>
I think the original version makes sense as well. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Okay, perhaps not for the security people, but for the government (or<BR>
Imperium)<BR>
that employs them.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 07:34:36 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
I'm new to the list, I am an veteran gamer that fell away from Classic <BR>
Traveller after it being my exclusive game for over a decade. I have both <BR>
naval and army experience. I too am getting caught up in the Classic <BR>
Traveller revival and its message of returning to simplicity. I was just <BR>
curious if Striker is following in the wake of CT or if it is being left <BR>
behind? Comments: <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 06:48:39 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > From: John Groth<BR>
> > "Strength Thru Intelligence" [the motto of the 519th Military<BR>
> > Intelligence Battalion (Airborne) (Tactical Exploitation)]<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah.  Obviously CT is wrong then, when it says that a character's hit points<BR>
> are its Strength thru Endurance.<BR>
> <BR>
> Or can Intelligence personnel take more damage?<BR>
<BR>
Only airborne-qualified Intelligence personnel (paratroopers are<BR>
bullet-resistant).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:03:31 +1000<BR>
From: "Mark Laiho" <mclaih@yesresources.com><BR>
Subject: Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
<BR>
First time on the list.<BR>
<BR>
I would have tried to post this to trav-tech-request@qrc.com except the I'm<BR>
unable to subscribe to this mailing list.<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to come up with a list of guidelines to use T4 FF&S (mainly) to<BR>
come up with a series of reasoned, economical, technical, lethality etc..<BR>
guidelines for capital ship design.  I'm trying to get some feed back or<BR>
ideas as well as distribute what I've thought up. This is mainly for ships<BR>
above the 500,000 Ton area.  The word document is to large to fit here and I<BR>
don't have a web page so I'll e-mail it out to anyone who requests it.  I'm<BR>
currently working on a Tech Level 12 Dreadnought with a high degree of<BR>
mission flexibility as it cost a lot money to build and maintain.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 07:08:10 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 19:17:55 -0700<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
> <BR>
> SCMITR is probably one of the most lethal shotgun projectiles ever<BR>
> developed.  <BR>
<BR>
The US Army probably doesn't use these out of Law of Armed Conflict<BR>
concerns. The Annex to the Hague Convention No. IV, 18 Oct 1907, embodying<BR>
the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War On Land, provides:<BR>
<BR>
"The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not<BR>
unlimited." (Art. 22)<BR>
<BR>
"It is especially forbidden.. to employ arms, projectiles, or material<BR>
calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." (Art. 23)<BR>
<BR>
This has nothing to do with effectiveness or even the facts of the case,<BR>
and everything to do with the politics of perception and world opinion. It<BR>
is the primary reason the US military has just about eliminated<BR>
flechette-type munitions from our arsenal, despite their proven<BR>
effectiveness.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 07:27:21 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> First time on the list.<BR>
> <BR>
> I would have tried to post this to trav-tech-request@qrc.com except the I'm<BR>
> unable to subscribe to this mailing list.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm trying to come up with a list of guidelines to use T4 FF&S (mainly) to<BR>
> come up with a series of reasoned, economical, technical, lethality etc..<BR>
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
<BR>
Leaves _us_ out! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> guidelines for capital ship design.  I'm trying to get some feed back or<BR>
> ideas as well as distribute what I've thought up. This is mainly for ships<BR>
> above the 500,000 Ton area.  The word document is to large to fit here and I<BR>
> don't have a web page so I'll e-mail it out to anyone who requests it.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be interested in seeing this.  (It'll probably use less bandwidth if<BR>
you save it as a .txt file.)<BR>
<BR>
  I'm<BR>
> currently working on a Tech Level 12 Dreadnought with a high degree of<BR>
> mission flexibility as it cost a lot money to build and maintain.<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind that, in M:0, the 90,000 dton _Coronation_ class (take a<BR>
bow, Doug!) is one of the largest ships mentioned.  The largest ship<BR>
I've done for M:0 is the 160,000 dton _Agincourt_ (not yet posted to my<BR>
Web site).  You are, naturally, free to build larger ships IYTU.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, have you downloaded Andrew Akins' spreadsheet for FF&S2?  I<BR>
_highly_ recommend it.  Go to:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
and follow the Depot link.<BR>
<BR>
<plug> My Web site also provides the Akins spreadsheet (Excel 5.0,<BR>
ZIPped) for each design. </plug><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776/travler.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:06:20 +1000<BR>
From: "Mark Laiho" <mclaih@yesresources.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Capital ship design guidelines<BR>
<BR>
I've used a custion made speedsheet(excel 97) so far because every<BR>
spreadsheet I've found on the internet doesn't quite have everything I need.<BR>
The guideline document for capital ship design is 3200 words, so I think its<BR>
still to big for the mailing list. (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll post<BR>
it.) I'm actually working on TL12 Dreadnought, 950,000 Displacement Tonnes.<BR>
It has some modifications which aren't quite legit, but are extrapolation of<BR>
existing rules.  I've almost finished the ship, but I'm still working on<BR>
carried support craft and vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:40:04 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
So, how do you think this would stack up in Traveller, where the Geneva<BR>
restictions don't necessarily apply?<BR>
(Other similar conventions might apply of course, but that's another topic)<BR>
<BR>
What would the CT/MT/etc ratings of the discusssed flechette round be?<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:43:51 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 1:09 AM, Frank G. Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Walt Smith wrote :<BR>
>> Or do you not agree that a jury trial is a good way to arrive at justice?<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just as democracy is not a good way of running a country, leaving any<BR>
> decision to a bunch of idiots (which are the only people who are usually<BR>
<BR>
You have an alternative suggestion?<BR>
<BR>
> allowed to serve on juries, once the lawyers have got through eliminating<BR>
> all the people who might actually think and won't be swayed by the lawyer's<BR>
> rhetoric...) is not a bright idea.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is not the lawyers ability to reject certain jurors (this is<BR>
limited BTW).  The real problem, IMHO is citizens who will do anything to<BR>
keep from serving on a jury.  I've had co workers brag about their<BR>
techniques of avoiding service on a jury.  Everyone want the benefits.  No<BR>
one wants the responsibility.<BR>
<BR>
My issue with a judge only trial is that you are relying on one person who's<BR>
judgement may not be any better than twelve jury members.  I can think of<BR>
one federal judge in particular of whom it was said that you his ruling were<BR>
dependant on whether or not he had a good breakfast.<BR>
<BR>
Judges are often political creatures, and you are likely to find yourself in<BR>
trouble it yes get 'grabbed up' for the wrong crime.  At least with a jury,<BR>
it take 12 (or) to agree to convict.<BR>
<BR>
No sir, I'll take a jury every time.<BR>
> <BR>
> As someone once said, if I was guilty I'd choose a jury trial, if I was<BR>
> innocent I'd go for a judge.<BR>
> <BR>
> Frankie<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:51:23 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 1:37 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> It would be possible to lob a grenade over the top or around the edge. This<BR>
> would seem to be a major disadvantage. I would imagine that it's not a big<BR>
> disadvantage for modern law enforcement types because it's probably rare<BR>
> that they go up against bad guys who are lobbing grenades. I'm also<BR>
> wondering how awkward such a thing would be given the fact that gravity is a<BR>
> variable in starship combat. How would such a thing work under 0G, for<BR>
> example. Perhaps it might be desirable to include a contra-gravity module in<BR>
> the design to compensate for this.<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know, just some thoughts.<BR>
<BR>
Good thoughts.  In zero-G its only 12 kg of mass, so just carry the bloody<BR>
thing.  Yeah grenade area problem.  But recall that the body bunker is an<BR>
alternative to having NO cover when negotiating starship hallways.  Think in<BR>
that context.  The body bunker is a mobile piece of cover to protect against<BR>
direct fire weapons while you team closes with the enemy.<BR>
<BR>
I suppose in the event of a grenade being thrown, you could fire the<BR>
thunderstrip on the front of the bunker (tennis anyone?).<BR>
<BR>
Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just part<BR>
of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:05:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
>We are all christians who have to varying degrees a disliking for the<BR>
 magic in AD&D, so we have chosen to play traveller for that and the<BR>
 sci-fi kewl element.<<BR>
<BR>
Not sure how much this will really matter to those involved, but Gary Gygax<BR>
who created all that magic stuff is this side of being a Fundamentalist<BR>
Christian and he obviously doesn't have any problems with it.  I won't even<BR>
go into all the other Christian types lay or clergy who feel the same way<BR>
that I know.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2715<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2716<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
OT: BBC (was: Hollywood Guns)<BR>
RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
EMP weapons article<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:06:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
>As someone once said, if I was guilty I'd choose a jury trial, if I was<BR>
innocent I'd go for a judge.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<<BR>
<BR>
Yow!<BR>
I'm not sure whether to be upset that someone beats me in cynicism or happy<BR>
that I've found a potential political ally.<BR>
:-P<BR>
<BR>
>You have an alternative suggestion?<<BR>
<BR>
Actually Tod, I do.<BR>
Charismatic Dictatorship.<BR>
Mine of course. :-P<BR>
That is actually another long rant, but essentially it comes down to<BR>
Democracy requires a significant sense of personal responsibility that is<BR>
virtually impossible to imbue in a population from generation to generation.<BR>
As for courts, look at the range of excuses people come up with. I don't<BR>
mean jury nullification which has some of its own problems (a minority gets<BR>
to decide the laws against the will of the majority?) but this nonsense<BR>
about "I can't judge someone, what gives me the right". Too many people I<BR>
see at the court aren't worthy of the responsibility.  And now all those<BR>
looking to twist various concepts like innocent until; proven guilty or<BR>
eliminating double jeopardy or any of the other bizarre perversions that are<BR>
continually bantered about when some crime or other outrages some special<BR>
interest group.<BR>
I won't even get into extending that to voting. (Who wants to figure out the<BR>
last time a U.S. President was elected by 50%+ of the whole electorate, not<BR>
just those bothering to vote?)<BR>
Might as well just flip a coin and save time and effort. Or maybe that big<BR>
wheel from Thunderdome...<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:10:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:50 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 3 Jul 00, at 20:20, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not arguing that, I'm just a little sceptical of the practicality<BR>
> of 500+m hits with it. Note that I'm also sceptical of claims that just<BR>
> about any rifle is effective at 500m in the hands of your average<BR>
<BR>
Rupert.  You and I are in 100 agreement.  Note that I mentioned ALCLAD and<BR>
the Hitchman study (which I've covered here before) 90 of all rifle combat<BR>
occurs at less than 300 meters.  Why, no one can hit/see a target at longer<BR>
range.  The whole point is to make a weapon that takes advantage of the<BR>
fact.  At typical combat ranges, multiple projectile weapons compensate for<BR>
aiming errors because they fire a group of projectiles at a target.<BR>
<BR>
Consider a neophyte at shorter range.  Let's say a target is 50 meters away.<BR>
We have to weapons.  Weapons 1 is a standard assault rifle (pick your<BR>
favorite).  Weapons 2 is a shotgun loaded with 00 buck (9 pellets).  With<BR>
which weapon does the neophyte more likely to hit the target (note we've<BR>
equipped the both weapons with identical sighting systems).<BR>
<BR>
I think most people would say the shotgun (and the SALVO studies certainly<BR>
bear this out)  The limiting factor of the shotgun as a combat weapon is<BR>
range.  00 shot is just a poor ballistic performer.  Now, we replace shot<BR>
with an effective flechette (SCMITR), and the shotgun is now lethal way past<BR>
the mythical 500 meters within which all combat generally occurs.  We still<BR>
get the aiming benefits of multiple projectiles.<BR>
<BR>
> grunt. Most people just aren't good enough shots to get hits that far<BR>
> away in field conditions, and it takes a fair bit of experience to be<BR>
> able to accurately estimate ranges much past 200m. However if one were<BR>
> to attach a laser range-finder to the weapon system things'd look a lot<BR>
> better.<BR>
<BR>
We are trying to make it simple.  We are removing the 'aiming', which most<BR>
people don't recognize as a fairly difficult procedure, and replace it with<BR>
pointing.  I want to issue these weapons by the thousand, and am cheap, so I<BR>
have the gun fitted with a simple optical sight with stadia on the cross<BR>
hairs.  The stadia lines represent a human torso at various ranges.  I place<BR>
one set of stadia on the targets shoulder, the other on the waist.  I'm<BR>
firing a shotgun, so this is probably close enough.<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW what is the test armour made out of?<BR>
<BR>
Standard US steels helmet and fragmentation vest (this round was developed<BR>
in the early 70s).  I have been informed by a PIO at AAI that in house<BR>
studies showed the round capable of defeating ANY flexible body armor then<BR>
in use.  I expect laminate or ceramic armor designed to stop AP rounds would<BR>
be effective against SCMITR.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
Tod "scattergun" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:12:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:50 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> For low/zero-G counter boarding situations I wouldn't even bother with<BR>
> a rocket - just a small recoiless type launch charge. It's not like the<BR>
> ranges are going to be very long, so a low velocity isn't going to<BR>
> matter. This way you can make 'em really cheap throw-away weapons that<BR>
> you sell the free-tranders by the gross.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hey, the US 106mm recoilless rifle has a canister load.  Just the thing for<BR>
clearing hallways. 106mm shaped charges too.  Hmmmm.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 08:56:47<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
At 06:48 AM 7/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Only airborne-qualified Intelligence personnel (paratroopers are<BR>
>bullet-resistant).<BR>
<BR>
MOS 11-B  Warsaw Pact Ammunition and Shrapnel Collection Specialist<BR>
<BR>
Rangers aren't bulletproof.. they just catch them in their teeth and spit<BR>
the rounds back.<BR>
<BR>
What's the only difference between US Army Special Forces and the Girl<BR>
Scouts?  You can get cookies from the Girl Scouts.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:00:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:25 AM 7/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>I remember being very impressed when working on Doctor<BR>
>Who that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
>investment considering the cheapness of the prog) <BR>
>researching the insignia for the RAF Regiment.<BR>
<BR>
"when working on Doctor Who"?<BR>
<BR>
*blink*<BR>
<BR>
Tell me more..<BR>
<BR>
Doug Berry<BR>
Past President for Life, the Legion of Rassilon<BR>
gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:25:26 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 5:08 AM, Christopher Thrash at thrash@io.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The US Army probably doesn't use these out of Law of Armed Conflict<BR>
> concerns. The Annex to the Hague Convention No. IV, 18 Oct 1907, embodying<BR>
> the Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War On Land, provides:<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the army doesn't use these because of procurement and the<BR>
influence of certain ordnance officers of the day.  SCMITR is, according to<BR>
the army, a modified "shotgun missile designed to increase range and improve<BR>
armor penetration".  Since they don't make any reference enhance<BR>
wounding/increases suffering, I doubt the DoD considers these as prohibited<BR>
under Hague convention (which the DoD ignore most of the time anyway).  High<BR>
velocity rifle fired flechettes were not deemed, by the army to be a<BR>
violation of Hague, not are massed flechette weapons like Beehive.<BR>
<BR>
The DoD has always taken of very restrictive view of Hague.  There attitude<BR>
has historically been, if not specifically prohibited, it is allowed.<BR>
Exlanding "dumdum" bullets are specifically named, and are thus forbidden.<BR>
5.56x45mm rounds which tumble and fragments at the canneleure?  Just fine,<BR>
thank you very much.<BR>
> <BR>
> "The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not<BR>
> unlimited." (Art. 22)<BR>
> <BR>
> "It is especially forbidden.. to employ arms, projectiles, or material<BR>
> calculated to cause unnecessary suffering." (Art. 23)<BR>
> <BR>
> This has nothing to do with effectiveness or even the facts of the case,<BR>
> and everything to do with the politics of perception and world opinion. It<BR>
> is the primary reason the US military has just about eliminated<BR>
> flechette-type munitions from our arsenal, despite their proven<BR>
> effectiveness.<BR>
<BR>
Mostly, flechette ammunition has been eliminated because of problems with<BR>
long term storage.  Beehive rounds in storage for extended periods have a<BR>
tendency to 'clump' and become ineffective when compared with HE rounds.<BR>
Please not that one of the contenders in the ACR competition, the Steyr AUG,<BR>
employed flechettes a it's projectile.  This was not considered a problem.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:37:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 9:06 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> You have an alternative suggestion?<<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually Tod, I do.<BR>
> Charismatic Dictatorship.<BR>
> Mine of course. :-P<BR>
<BR>
"Democracy is the worst form of government...except for all the others"<BR>
- --Churchill<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I want my dictatorship, too. How about one for everyone.  Ooops,<BR>
anarchy.<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, I thank the lord every day that we don't have a true democracy.<BR>
Personally, I'm partial to the Heinlein model.  But then , having earned my<BR>
right of sacred franchise, I'd be a voter.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:41:03 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 8:56 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> MOS 11-B  Warsaw Pact Ammunition and Shrapnel Collection Specialist<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, the 'B' is for bullet stopper. Why do you think they call them 'idiot<BR>
stick'.  Still got you blue cord?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Rangers aren't bulletproof.. they just catch them in their teeth and spit<BR>
> the rounds back.<BR>
<BR>
'Bulletproof' is just stage 3 in the standard drinking spectrum.  Right<BR>
after "I'm Good Looking" and right before "I'm invisible".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 10:48:51 -0600<BR>
From: "adsr" <adsr@mato.com><BR>
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:28:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Timothy Minahan<BR>
>><BR>
>> We are all christians who have to varying degrees a disliking for the<BR>
magic in AD&D, so we have chosen to play traveller for that and the sci-fi<BR>
kewl element.<BR>
><BR>
>Funny, I have a mild case of an opposite problem with AD&D magic:  I'm an<BR>
atheist.  I play Traveller because it suits my materialist philosophical<BR>
prejudices.  Oh, and because it's fun.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well pfffffffffffft to both of you!  ^_-  (that's an Asian winky-face to let<BR>
you know I'm not too serious about pffting you)<BR>
<BR>
I'm a lifelong occultist.  In my teens, I studied Gardnerian Wicca, but my<BR>
interest in that, along with any remaining interest in Christianity left<BR>
over from my upbringing, sort of died when I got into graduate school and<BR>
took a Master's degree in medieval history.  (Nothing against anyone else<BR>
who is either, but if you have any skepticism in you at all... you will<BR>
never be able to believe the feminist/wiccan matriarchal universal Old<BR>
Religion theory or the official Nicene story about Jesus again after you've<BR>
had a decent education about the history and societies of the past.)<BR>
<BR>
I specialized in women's issues, spirituality, the history of science and<BR>
the occult, and heresies (which qualified me to be a secretary, and so I'm<BR>
back in school studying Asian Languages and Literature.)  I'm a Thelemite<BR>
(one of the serious occultists who read Aleister Crowley, not the adolescent<BR>
boys of all ages who invoke his name to shock their parents) and have since<BR>
become a Shinto-influenced shamanic/Tantric Buddhist after having a really<BR>
interesting experience with my Personal Truth in Japan.  I've done hearth<BR>
magick, ceremonial magick, spiritualism, and lots of other things most<BR>
people can't believe before breakfast.  I don't recommend them all, but I<BR>
can't say I regret my breadth of experience.<BR>
<BR>
I can't stomach AD&D magick because it is so far removed from anything that<BR>
magick actually is that it is almost offensive to me.<BR>
<BR>
I have the same problem with AD&D and 90% of the fantasy novels out there<BR>
that a good hard scientist has with the bad science in so much science<BR>
fiction-- I know too much to be able to get into it.  (As my pal ikaros<BR>
says, "I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but not to hang it by the neck<BR>
until dead.")<BR>
<BR>
So I really enjoy SF and SF games much more than fantasy-based ones.  It may<BR>
be just as screwed up, but at least it's not glaring me in the face how much<BR>
so!<BR>
<BR>
(You know, if AD&D magick is offensive to all three of us on such wildly<BR>
varying grounds, perhaps someone should get a clue.)<BR>
<BR>
The only really good fantasy games out there imnaaho were the Chaosium ones<BR>
that at least got the idea that magickal attack is a contest of Will (Ego).<BR>
I did play Call of Cthulhu a lot, and irritated various refs by frequently<BR>
living a long, long time, much longer than PC's are supposed to.<BR>
<BR>
>(OK, I admit I might end up playing AD&D again when 3rd Edition comes out,<BR>
if it's any good.  I don't think Roman style Republics have had their fair<BR>
share of attention yet, and I've got a hankering to run a 'bread and<BR>
circuses' election.  And it might be a low magic game - or maybe not.)<BR>
><BR>
That WOULD be a fun game.  But you could use a better rules system to do it.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:37:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 3 Jul 00, at 22:43, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Founding Fathers found that some people were only equal to 3/5ths of<BR>
other people. That being said, it should be noted that Libertarians and<BR>
certain other literalists do indeed consider a draft of any sort to<BR>
constitute involuntary servitude. I don't agree (and neither did Kipling!)<BR>
but they are entitled to their beliefs.<BR>
>><BR>
> I feel that a draft is involuntary servitude, however that doesn't<BR>
necessarily make it wrong.<BR>
><BR>
I'm a Libertarian.  I can't understand how it can be other than involuntary<BR>
servitude.  If you don't want to go but you have to, and you will be thrown<BR>
in jail and lose your rights if you don't anyway, then it's certainly not<BR>
voluntary and it's definitely servitude.<BR>
<BR>
If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a genuine<BR>
threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript them?<BR>
This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of conscription<BR>
is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(Of course I'm gonna be 4-F anyway, but that's beside the point.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:38:43 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: OT: BBC (was: Hollywood Guns)<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:<BR>
> I remember being very impressed when working on Doctor Who<BR>
> that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major investment<BR>
> considering the cheapness of the prog) researching the insignia<BR>
> for the RAF Regiment.<BR>
<BR>
Depending on when that  was,  was  the  costume  designer  Roland<BR>
Warne?  'Rollie' is my Great Uncle's brother and was the  costume<BR>
designer on Dr Who for some time (including "Death To The Daleks"<BR>
and "Brain Of Morbius").  He told me a story once  about  another<BR>
show he worked on ... Z-Cars (low-budget UK cop show, mostly shot<BR>
in b&w):<BR>
<BR>
It seems that the little cap pin-badges on  the  police  uniforms<BR>
kept falling off and going missing.  When the series had  started<BR>
they were given a number by the police, but later o n  releations<BR>
had soured somewhat and he could get no more  pin-badges.  So  he<BR>
was forced to improvise with some  'old  stock'.  The  pin-badges<BR>
should have had "ER II" on them (for Queen Elizabeth II), but the<BR>
old stock had "GR V"  (for  King  George  V).  He  got  literally<BR>
hundreds of letters for viewers pointing out the 'error'.<BR>
<BR>
When watching BBC stuff you have to think of many  of  the  shows<BR>
(like Dr Who) as "theatrical  plays"  on  TV  rather  than  mini-<BR>
movies.  Viewers tend not to expect big-budget effects, but  *do*<BR>
expect that low-budget stuff is  done  properly.  Another  recent<BR>
example was when a scene of a farm tractor in a show  had  to  be<BR>
overdubbed there were many complaints when the sound effect  used<BR>
was for the wrong model of tractor.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The BBC were really good at anything historical.  Absolutely<BR>
> crap at anything speculative.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure I agree.  I *liked* "Star Cops", and even  "Invasion<BR>
Earth" was okay (except for the US colonel's dialogue.)  The  big<BR>
problem for shows like Dr Who was that  it  was  moved  from  the<BR>
Drama department to the Light  Entertainment  department.  That's<BR>
when it went down hill.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:59:58 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> > > Or do you not agree that a jury trial is a good way to<BR>
> > > arrive at justice?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I don't.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Just as democracy is not a good way of running a country,<BR>
> > leaving any decision to a bunch of idiots (which are the only<BR>
> > people who are usually<BR>
> <BR>
> You have an alternative suggestion?<BR>
<BR>
How about a ...  Feudal Technocracy?  Government  by  people  who<BR>
actually know and understand the issues on which they are  making<BR>
policy.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> My issue with a judge only trial is that you are relying on one<BR>
> person who's judgement may not be any better than twelve jury<BR>
> members.  I can think of one federal judge in particular of<BR>
> whom it was said that you his ruling were dependant on whether<BR>
> or not he had a good breakfast.<BR>
<BR>
*Everyone*, without exception, has biases.  Theoretically, a jury<BR>
decision should be better because in a properly selected jury the<BR>
biases *should* cancel out.  (Okay, I  know  that  sounds  a  bit<BR>
nieve.)  The problem is that most jury members  are  incompetant.<BR>
The Cannel Islands had an interesting way around this: there  all<BR>
jury members must be lawyers!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:06:22 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
>At least you edited it, unlike the horrible messes Outlook usually produces..<BR>
><BR>
>Cheers,<BR>
><BR>
>Dom<BR>
<BR>
I use Eudora Light, easier than Outlook and immune to Microsoft targeted<BR>
viruses (virui?)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:07:26 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: EMP weapons article<BR>
<BR>
Take a gander at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224520.html<BR>
<BR>
It's a New Scientist article on the use of EMP weapons which may be <BR>
of interest. Personnly, it'd be nice to see some of this as an <BR>
article for Traveller's Fire, Fusion and Steel Rules. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
There are also a number of further reading links.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:17:27 EDT<BR>
From: XXOmenXXX@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
AAAAAGH! .. To you all..<BR>
<BR>
I play games.. with MAGIC oh my.. Because I know.. its just a GAME.. thats <BR>
right guys.. G-A-M-E.. what does that spell Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/4/00 10:31:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tiamat@tsoft.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Subj:     reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
 Date:  7/4/00 10:31:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
 From:  tiamat@tsoft.com (Kiri Aradia Morgan)<BR>
 Sender:    owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
 Reply-to:  traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
 To:    traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
 <BR>
 From: Alan Bradley <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 >> From: Timothy Minahan<BR>
 >><BR>
 >> We are all christians who have to varying degrees a disliking for the<BR>
 magic in AD&D, so we have chosen to play traveller for that and the sci-fi<BR>
 kewl element.<BR>
 ><BR>
 >Funny, I have a mild case of an opposite problem with AD&D magic:  I'm an<BR>
 atheist.  I play Traveller because it suits my materialist philosophical<BR>
 prejudices.  Oh, and because it's fun.<BR>
 ><BR>
 <BR>
 Well pfffffffffffft to both of you!  ^_-  (that's an Asian winky-face to let<BR>
 you know I'm not too serious about pffting you)<BR>
 <BR>
 I'm a lifelong occultist.  In my teens, I studied Gardnerian Wicca, but my<BR>
 interest in that, along with any remaining interest in Christianity left<BR>
 over from my upbringing, sort of died when I got into graduate school and<BR>
 took a Master's degree in medieval history.  (Nothing against anyone else<BR>
 who is either, but if you have any skepticism in you at all... you will<BR>
 never be able to believe the feminist/wiccan matriarchal universal Old<BR>
 Religion theory or the official Nicene story about Jesus again after you've<BR>
 had a decent education about the history and societies of the past.)<BR>
 <BR>
 I specialized in women's issues, spirituality, the history of science and<BR>
 the occult, and heresies (which qualified me to be a secretary, and so I'm<BR>
 back in school studying Asian Languages and Literature.)  I'm a Thelemite<BR>
 (one of the serious occultists who read Aleister Crowley, not the adolescent<BR>
 boys of all ages who invoke his name to shock their parents) and have since<BR>
 become a Shinto-influenced shamanic/Tantric Buddhist after having a really<BR>
 interesting experience with my Personal Truth in Japan.  I've done hearth<BR>
 magick, ceremonial magick, spiritualism, and lots of other things most<BR>
 people can't believe before breakfast.  I don't recommend them all, but I<BR>
 can't say I regret my breadth of experience.<BR>
 <BR>
 I can't stomach AD&D magick because it is so far removed from anything that<BR>
 magick actually is that it is almost offensive to me.<BR>
 <BR>
 I have the same problem with AD&D and 90% of the fantasy novels out there<BR>
 that a good hard scientist has with the bad science in so much science<BR>
 fiction-- I know too much to be able to get into it.  (As my pal ikaros<BR>
 says, "I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but not to hang it by the neck<BR>
 until dead.")<BR>
 <BR>
 So I really enjoy SF and SF games much more than fantasy-based ones.  It may<BR>
 be just as screwed up, but at least it's not glaring me in the face how much<BR>
 so!<BR>
 <BR>
 (You know, if AD&D magick is offensive to all three of us on such wildly<BR>
 varying grounds, perhaps someone should get a clue.)<BR>
 <BR>
 The only really good fantasy games out there imnaaho were the Chaosium ones<BR>
 that at least got the idea that magickal attack is a contest of Will (Ego).<BR>
 I did play Call of Cthulhu a lot, and irritated various refs by frequently<BR>
 living a long, long time, much longer than PC's are supposed to.<BR>
 <BR>
 >(OK, I admit I might end up playing AD&D again when 3rd Edition comes out,<BR>
 if it's any good.  I don't think Roman style Republics have had their fair<BR>
 share of attention yet, and I've got a hankering to run a 'bread and<BR>
 circuses' election.  And it might be a low magic game - or maybe not.)<BR>
 ><BR>
 That WOULD be a fun game.  But you could use a better rules system to do it.<BR>
 <BR>
 Kiri<BR>
 <BR>
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
 Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
 tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
 <BR>
 "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
 sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
 and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
 impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                 -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:26:05 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
>Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
>portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just part<BR>
>of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
<BR>
There was a very old White Dwarf article which suggested various means of<BR>
combating boarding parties.<BR>
<BR>
ie<BR>
<BR>
Strobe Lighting<BR>
<BR>
High / Low pressure on either side of a hatch with the high pressure side<BR>
floor strewn with crap.  Open the hatch and get a face full of rubbish<BR>
<BR>
Armoured fold down door with weapon locks (like a fold down garage door)<BR>
<BR>
Fluctating G fields<BR>
<BR>
I probably still have the article somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2716<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2717</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/4/00 3:27:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2717<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
Re: unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
The Nine Million Names of G-d (was: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?))<BR>
OT: Magic<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
I'm Back<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:27:42 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
  Gee, and I thought that _all_ purists still use Striker :><BR>
<BR>
>I'm new to the list, I am an veteran gamer that fell away from Classic <BR>
>Traveller after it being my exclusive game for over a decade. I have both <BR>
>naval and army experience. I too am getting caught up in the Classic <BR>
>Traveller revival and its message of returning to simplicity. I was just <BR>
>curious if Striker is following in the wake of CT or if it is being left <BR>
>behind? Comments: <BR>
<BR>
  AFAIK, Striker is scheduled for the games compilation:<BR>
" >Games. Includes full text of games produced for Traveller: Mayday,<BR>
>Snapshot, Azhanti High Lightning, Fifth Frontier War,<BR>
>  Invasion: Earth. Also includes Striker, Dark Nebula, and Imperium. Game<BR>
>boards and counter images included. "<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:28:36 EDT<BR>
From: CPoppcap@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
I think Striker is the best ,not the most complex intensive design process <BR>
but it is good for what it is and if you want to scale up use the mass combat <BR>
stuff from the Mega trav refs companion stuff its the best .I love striker<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:33:00 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 9:48 AM, adsr at adsr@mato.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
If you are having trouble using majordomo commands, try the following web<BR>
page:<BR>
<BR>
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tml.html<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:34:01 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
XXOmenXXX@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> I play games.. with MAGIC oh my.. Because I know.. its just a <BR>
> GAME.. thats right guys.. G-A-M-E.. what does that spell<BR>
> Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.<BR>
<BR>
Really?  I thought it was a mechanism whereby we could enter into<BR>
communion with  other  aspects  of  ourselves  that  exist  on  a<BR>
parallel plane of reality.  You're telling me I've  been  wasting<BR>
my time on something trivial all these years?  What a bummer!<BR>
<BR>
:-^<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:55:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Todd wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Good thoughts.  In zero-G its only 12 kg of mass, so just carry the bloody<BR>
>thing.  Yeah grenade area problem.  But recall that the body bunker is an<BR>
>alternative to having NO cover when negotiating starship hallways.  Think<BR>
in<BR>
>that context.  The body bunker is a mobile piece of cover to protect<BR>
against<BR>
>direct fire weapons while you team closes with the enemy.<BR>
><BR>
>I suppose in the event of a grenade being thrown, you could fire the<BR>
>thunderstrip on the front of the bunker (tennis anyone?).<BR>
><BR>
>Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
>portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just part<BR>
>of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
<BR>
Well, you asked for some feedback on some limitations. The body bunker just<BR>
screamed "Grenade" to me, and I figured that might be an issue you hadn't<BR>
considered. On the other hand, a series of mines or charges placed in the<BR>
halls of the ship (capable of detonation by way of electronic surveillance)<BR>
might put an end to the shield as well. The mines or charges could be easily<BR>
disguised to merely look like part of the scenery. When the bunker itself<BR>
passes by: "Boom".<BR>
<BR>
All I'm trying to do is get the limitations out on the table. I understand<BR>
the concept that you're running out here.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 19:58:16 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
At 21:52 -0400 3/7/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>If I understand correctly, damage applied to a target is reduced by armor.<BR>
>Rigid armor nullifies a die, and flexible armor reduces a die by 1.  I<BR>
>assume there is some AV attached to different armor types so that armor may<BR>
>effect 1, 2 or possibly more dice.<BR>
<BR>
Yup, armour is rated in numbers of dice.<BR>
<BR>
>Question 1:  What is the typical AV of say a CES or combat armor?<BR>
<BR>
ABD 13 (Augmented Battledress TL13) = 9R<BR>
ABD 10 = 7R<BR>
Cloth 7 = 1F<BR>
<BR>
No CES in standard rules but we (BITS) rated it at 5F on a TLAR principle...<BR>
<BR>
>Question 2:  How does one adjust for weapons or ammunition that have<BR>
>enhanced or reduced penetration.<BR>
<BR>
Okay - in standard T4, EA gives guidance on this. The statement (p8) <BR>
is that armour is usually designed to protect against AP rounds <BR>
commonly available at the same TL. It gives the optional rule that if <BR>
the TL of AP ammo is higher than armour then reduce the armour rating <BR>
by a quarter, rounding armour down.<BR>
<BR>
ACQ haves armour value (ie 2R -> 1R) and also halves damage that <BR>
penetrates. Both round up. Shotguns etc are treated differently.<BR>
<BR>
>Example:  A rifle does 3D damage.  Assuming soft armor with an AV of 2, this<BR>
>would mean damage is reduced to 1D+2 (I don't know if these example are<BR>
>valid for T4/ACQ, so correct them if I'm wrong).  Now what happens if the<BR>
>rifle is loaded with AP ammunition?  Bal and AP are relatively identical as<BR>
>far as their ability to produce wounds, but AP has much better penetration.<BR>
<BR>
T4 - damage is 1D + 2. If ammo higher tech AP then damage is 2D+1 <BR>
with optional rules.<BR>
ACQ = damage is (2D+1)/2 rounded up.<BR>
<BR>
Hollow point in ACQ doubles armour value and doubles damage. In the <BR>
above example, the damage would be (1+1+1) *2 = 6 as armour would be <BR>
4F.<BR>
<BR>
>Example2:  Shotgun firing buckshot vs. shotgun firing SCMITR fhechettes.<BR>
>Round .30 cal buck is a terrible penetrater, but quite destructive.  SCMITR<BR>
>is an awesome penetrater (flying razorblade) and decidedly lethal.  How does<BR>
>one distinguish between the two for damage purposes?<BR>
<BR>
ACQ's way of dealing with shotguns is detailed on p23, and I won't <BR>
deal with it here as it is quite long winded. It does account for AP <BR>
rounds in shotshells though.<BR>
<BR>
"Doug, the nasty man is using acronyms I don't know!" = SCMITR<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:19:11 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
"Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote:<BR>
> How does it cope with stairs, or zero gee ?<BR>
> <BR>
> This is starship boarding. I'd be expecting things to be dark, zero gee, and<BR>
> basically ugly.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Ceiling/floor hatches, variable-width/height hallways, jams for<BR>
pressure doors, there are all kinds of things that make this a less<BR>
than perfect solution. If it fits neatly in the corridor, you're set.<BR>
A couple of inches on one side or the other just makes it a good<BR>
shield for the person rolling the grenade past it.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:17:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery?<BR>
<BR>
At 14:25 -0400 4/7/00, Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>I use Eudora Light, easier than Outlook and immune to Microsoft targeted<BR>
>viruses (virui?)<BR>
<BR>
I used Eudora Light 3.1.1 until about twelve months ago when I <BR>
switched to Eudora Pro 4.2. Using MacOS and having no M$ software bar <BR>
IE5 for testing web pages I tend to be moderately immune to M$ <BR>
induced chaos.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:48:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
<BR>
>Ive just downloaded H&E...any tips on quick ways to get started or things<BR>
to<BR>
>definitely watch out for?  Vs trial and error and lengthy figure-it-out<BR>
times?<BR>
<BR>
>Dan<BR>
>omensigil<BR>
<BR>
The interface is fairly intuitive and the default settings should get you<BR>
started generating systems immediately. I would probably start generating<BR>
single systems then move onto Full Sectors and Subsectors once you become<BR>
familiar with the way the program works.<BR>
<BR>
Apart from that the best way forward is just to try each item in the menu to<BR>
find out what each does.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris<BR>
stuart.ferris@virgin.net<BR>
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:54:25 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: H&E V1.0.3 Suggustion.<BR>
<BR>
Stuart Ferris wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Ive just downloaded H&E...any tips on quick ways to get started or things<BR>
> to<BR>
> >definitely watch out for?  Vs trial and error and lengthy figure-it-out<BR>
> times?<BR>
> <BR>
> >Dan<BR>
> >omensigil<BR>
> <BR>
> The interface is fairly intuitive and the default settings should get you<BR>
> started generating systems immediately. I would probably start generating<BR>
> single systems then move onto Full Sectors and Subsectors once you become<BR>
> familiar with the way the program works.<BR>
> <BR>
> Apart from that the best way forward is just to try each item in the menu to<BR>
> find out what each does.<BR>
<BR>
One question:<BR>
<BR>
Other than printing a screen capture, is there any way on Heaven and<BR>
Earth to print  a map of the generated world?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:07:12 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
With all this back-and-forth about the draft being equivalent to<BR>
slavery, think about one thing:<BR>
<BR>
The United States Code defines the militia as including all males<BR>
from ages 18 to 45, and all female officers of the National<BR>
Guard.<BR>
<BR>
The Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power to<BR>
call out the militia.<BR>
<BR>
If the draft-as-slavery issue were to be argued before the<BR>
Supreme Court, the government, if their lawyers are even<BR>
minimally competent, would argue that this is nothing more than a<BR>
partial call-out of the militia.<BR>
<BR>
I'd bet that the Supreme Court - regardless of which political<BR>
extreme it might sit on - will probably find for the government<BR>
on this one.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:17:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: The Nine Million Names of G-d (was: Re: 'Canon' Rant (was: Slavery?))<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:08:08 -0400 (EDT), Peter Newman<BR>
<pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In most Christian sects Jesus Christ is _part_ of their God. Kromm<BR>
>is not part of Steve Jackson. Hence that analogy is inappropriate. <BR>
>This is why I picked St Peter. I am aware that Pentecostals<BR>
>do not generally use the term Yahweh but the term God is ambiguous<BR>
>and could refer to most any male deity. Therefore when discussing<BR>
>him it is more precise to use its proper name. Since my keyboard<BR>
>will not handle Hebrew nor do I speak it Yahweh is as close as<BR>
>I can get to the proper name of the deity in question. The<BR>
>fact that the Pentecostals would not use this term is probably<BR>
>due to their monotheistic world view. Since not everyone in the<BR>
>world, or on the TML, is Christian I feel it is inappropriate<BR>
>of me to use the term 'God' for Yahweh.<BR>
<BR>
Jews never use that form of the name; it is invariably "Adonai"<BR>
in prayer; "Hashem" (lit. "the Name") in non-prayer contexts.<BR>
<BR>
When Jews discuss the entity so designated in ordinary discourse<BR>
in the vernacular, it is usual to use the local term equivalent<BR>
to "God" (e.g., God in English, Dios in Spanish, Gott in German,<BR>
et cetera), although we will usually omit a letter (G-d, Di-s,<BR>
G-tt, et cetera) in writing.<BR>
<BR>
In Islam, the usage is always "Allah", regardless of language or<BR>
context.<BR>
<BR>
It is therefore appropriate to use "God" or "G-d" to designate<BR>
that entity when the language of the context is English.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:35:13 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Let me start by noting for the record that I do not believe in<BR>
magic, period.  If you believe in it; I won't tell you that<BR>
you're wrong, but the concept leaves me totally cold.<BR>
<BR>
That said, I have no objections to magic in gaming.  Why?  It's a<BR>
game, fercryinoutloud, and if magic is part of the rules of the<BR>
game, fine.<BR>
<BR>
What I do have an objection to is "illogical" magic.  I don't<BR>
like a magic "system" where spells that are superficially similar<BR>
have no actual relationship to each other - i.e., where magic<BR>
can't be treated as at least an _empirical_ science, where if I<BR>
learn, say, stone-to-flesh, the knowledge and experience involved<BR>
in learning and using that spell is totally irrelevant to the<BR>
learning of metal-to-flesh.  Give me _organized_ magic in a game,<BR>
I'm content.  Give me a system where magic is accomplished<BR>
through summoning of various levels and types of demons, it still<BR>
had better be consistent; I want to be able to cross-reference<BR>
demon types and levels with spell effects, and be able to predict<BR>
at the very least what level and/or type of demon I'm going to<BR>
need to accomplish a new spell.  Magic is not (or should not be)<BR>
the process of controlling the random breaking of random natural<BR>
laws in random ways; it should operate according to natural laws<BR>
of its own, and those laws should be discernable in varying<BR>
degrees to the suitably perceptive practitioner (e.g., the magi<BR>
who are the equivalent of Aristotle, Newton, Kepler, Einstein,<BR>
and so on).<BR>
<BR>
Magic in (A)D&D fails that test.  That is the second biggest<BR>
turnoff in that system for me.  (The first is restricted to rants<BR>
on rgf.misc, so don't ask.  Suffice it to say that even the worst<BR>
versions of Traveller don't suffer from it.)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:05:20 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Magic is not (or should not be) the process of controlling the random<BR>
> breaking of random natural laws in random ways; it should operate according<BR>
> to natural laws of its own, and those laws should be discernable in varying<BR>
> degrees to the suitably perceptive practitioner (e.g., the magi who are the<BR>
> equivalent of Aristotle, Newton, Kepler, Einstein, and so on).<BR>
<BR>
    Sounds like you'd be fairly fond of magic in the HarnMaster system, which<BR>
at least puts forward a reasonably consistent framework, though it relies on<BR>
the GM and players to put forth some effort to come up with more than the<BR>
"basic" spells given (indeed, doing so is virtually a requirement for PC mages<BR>
to advance within the guild ranks, though such advancement isn't needed to<BR>
gain actual skill).<BR>
<BR>
    I'd extend the notion to consistency in the broad framework of the game;<BR>
it doesn't have to be accurate to six decimals, just reasonable enough that<BR>
players and I can accept the way things are without hanging our disbelief<BR>
until dead. (g)<BR>
<BR>
    I find both GT and HarnMaster eminently satisfactory in that regard.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:06:09 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 11:55 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Todd wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Good thoughts.  In zero-G its only 12 kg of mass, so just carry the bloody<BR>
>> thing.  Yeah grenade area problem.  But recall that the body bunker is an<BR>
>> alternative to having NO cover when negotiating starship hallways.  Think<BR>
> in<BR>
>> that context.  The body bunker is a mobile piece of cover to protect<BR>
> against<BR>
>> direct fire weapons while you team closes with the enemy.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I suppose in the event of a grenade being thrown, you could fire the<BR>
>> thunderstrip on the front of the bunker (tennis anyone?).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
>> portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just part<BR>
>> of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
> <BR>
> Well, you asked for some feedback on some limitations. The body bunker just<BR>
> screamed "Grenade" to me, and I figured that might be an issue you hadn't<BR>
> considered. On the other hand, a series of mines or charges placed in the<BR>
> halls of the ship (capable of detonation by way of electronic surveillance)<BR>
> might put an end to the shield as well. The mines or charges could be easily<BR>
> disguised to merely look like part of the scenery. When the bunker itself<BR>
> passes by: "Boom".<BR>
> <BR>
> All I'm trying to do is get the limitations out on the table. I understand<BR>
> the concept that you're running out here.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:06:01 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: I'm Back<BR>
<BR>
Back from Dragon*Con. Had fun. Met several of you. <BR>
<BR>
I am erasing unread the 42 Zillion digests I have received in the last few <BR>
days -- if there was anything important directed specifically at me, please <BR>
forward it.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 8:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is not the lawyers ability to reject certain jurors (this is<BR>
> limited BTW).  The real problem, IMHO is citizens who will do anything to<BR>
> keep from serving on a jury.  I've had co workers brag about their<BR>
> techniques of avoiding service on a jury.  Everyone want the benefits.  No<BR>
> one wants the responsibility.<BR>
<BR>
That really galls me, too. Most of my friends and I would be quite <BR>
happy to do so, but the only ones I know of who were called up were <BR>
dismissed, probably because of their University degrees.<BR>
 <BR>
> My issue with a judge only trial is that you are relying on one person<BR>
> who's judgement may not be any better than twelve jury members.  I can<BR>
> think of one federal judge in particular of whom it was said that you his<BR>
> ruling were dependant on whether or not he had a good breakfast.<BR>
<BR>
In the town where I used to live one judge was heard to say "the next <BR>
drunk driver I get goes inside", and the next drunk driver did, for a <BR>
first offense that had hurt no-one but himself. While I understand the <BR>
judge's actions (his daughter had died after a drunk driver hit her the <BR>
week before), it seems a fairly arbitary way of running a justice <BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 9:10, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/4/00 3:50 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > On 3 Jul 00, at 20:20, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm not arguing that, I'm just a little sceptical of the practicality of<BR>
> > 500+m hits with it. Note that I'm also sceptical of claims that just<BR>
> > about any rifle is effective at 500m in the hands of your average<BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert.  You and I are in 100 agreement.  Note that I mentioned ALCLAD and<BR>
> the Hitchman study (which I've covered here before) 90 of all rifle combat<BR>
> occurs at less than 300 meters.  Why, no one can hit/see a target at<BR>
> longer range.  The whole point is to make a weapon that takes advantage of<BR>
> the fact.  At typical combat ranges, multiple projectile weapons<BR>
> compensate for aiming errors because they fire a group of projectiles at a<BR>
> target.<BR>
> <BR>
> Consider a neophyte at shorter range.  Let's say a target is 50 meters<BR>
> away. We have to weapons.  Weapons 1 is a standard assault rifle (pick<BR>
> your favorite).  Weapons 2 is a shotgun loaded with 00 buck (9 pellets). <BR>
> With which weapon does the neophyte more likely to hit the target (note<BR>
> we've equipped the both weapons with identical sighting systems).<BR>
<BR>
For sure. After all that's the motivation behind the G11 and the <BR>
Russian AN-94, along with the dumped ACR entries.<BR>
<BR>
> We are trying to make it simple.  We are removing the 'aiming', which most<BR>
> people don't recognize as a fairly difficult procedure, and replace it<BR>
> with pointing.  I want to issue these weapons by the thousand, and am<BR>
> cheap, so I have the gun fitted with a simple optical sight with stadia on<BR>
> the cross hairs.  The stadia lines represent a human torso at various<BR>
> ranges.  I place one set of stadia on the targets shoulder, the other on<BR>
> the waist.  I'm firing a shotgun, so this is probably close enough. > ><BR>
<BR>
The biggest downside I can see for realistic ranges is that shotgun <BR>
ammo is heavy and bulky. However as you could well endup firing a whole <BR>
lot less of it this may not be that big a deal.<BR>
<BR>
> BTW what is the test armour made out of?<BR>
> <BR>
> Standard US steels helmet and fragmentation vest (this round was developed<BR>
> in the early 70s).  I have been informed by a PIO at AAI that in house<BR>
> studies showed the round capable of defeating ANY flexible body armor then<BR>
> in use.  I expect laminate or ceramic armor designed to stop AP rounds<BR>
> would be effective against SCMITR. <BR>
<BR>
Thanks. I was just curious as, if they'd been claiming that against <BR>
solid armour (steel, ceramic, etc), I'd probably have written the whole <BR>
thing off as hype. I can't see how just about any solid armour wouldn't <BR>
stop the rounds, as they have neither the energy or velocity to make <BR>
good penetrators. However I can see them working really well on Kevlar, <BR>
ballistic nylon, etc. as they should cut nicely.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 17:07, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> With all this back-and-forth about the draft being equivalent to<BR>
> slavery, think about one thing:<BR>
> <BR>
> The United States Code defines the militia as including all males<BR>
> from ages 18 to 45, and all female officers of the National<BR>
> Guard.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power to<BR>
> call out the militia.<BR>
<BR>
Is the United States Code part of the Constitution? If it isn't it <BR>
gaives the federal government all kinds of interesting powers, just by <BR>
changing it.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 10:37, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
> to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
> and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a<BR>
> genuine threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to<BR>
> conscript them? This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit<BR>
> of conscription is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
That is the reason I'm not on favour of conscription - if your citizens <BR>
won't voluteer to protect your country maybe you shouldn't be the one <BR>
in charge. Besides, if they can't be bothered defending their homes and <BR>
way of life they don't deserve to keep them. Evolution in Action.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 9:37, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Seriously, I thank the lord every day that we don't have a true democracy.<BR>
> Personally, I'm partial to the Heinlein model.  But then , having earned<BR>
> my right of sacred franchise, I'd be a voter.<BR>
<BR>
Which one? You sound like a Starship Troopers type, but his various <BR>
other books between them support just about any kind of democracy aside <BR>
from radical Athenian ones. This is simething many critics of ST who <BR>
consider it Heilein's personal philosophy like to forget.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 9:12, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hey, the US 106mm recoilless rifle has a canister load.  Just the thing<BR>
> for clearing hallways. 106mm shaped charges too.  Hmmmm.<BR>
<BR>
Seen the 106mm HEAT fired. That weapon would be just about as dangerous <BR>
in a hallway because of its blast as for its projectile (and that's for <BR>
either end). The night firing was especially impressive - 20m fireballs <BR>
at both ends, and the ground shakes, too. Also impressive was the 10m <BR>
pine tree 20m behind the firing postion - it was dead the next day.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:20:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 9:25, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Mostly, flechette ammunition has been eliminated because of problems with<BR>
> long term storage.  Beehive rounds in storage for extended periods have a<BR>
> tendency to 'clump' and become ineffective when compared with HE rounds.<BR>
> Please not that one of the contenders in the ACR competition, the Steyr<BR>
> AUG, employed flechettes a it's projectile.  This was not considered a<BR>
> problem.<BR>
<BR>
So did the AAI entry, whereas the Colt entry used a duplex round (as <BR>
I'm sure you know), while H&K entered a modified G11. BTW do you know <BR>
just how "real" the official reason for dumping the project (that none <BR>
gave enough extra hit chance at range than the M16A2) was?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:23:51 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 15:06, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
> serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
<BR>
By blowing a hole right through it and waiting for the occupant's siut <BR>
air supplies to run out. Alternatively by telling them to come out or <BR>
you'll blow the whole thing into vapour with them still in it. <BR>
Naturally if they've booby-trapped it and your marine boarding party <BR>
gets wasted you zap them with all those anti-missile lasers you've got <BR>
sitting around.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:26:07 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 12:19 PM, Ethan Henry at egh@klg.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote:<BR>
>> How does it cope with stairs, or zero gee ?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> This is starship boarding. I'd be expecting things to be dark, zero gee, and<BR>
>> basically ugly.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yeah. Ceiling/floor hatches, variable-width/height hallways, jams for<BR>
> pressure doors, there are all kinds of things that make this a less<BR>
> than perfect solution. If it fits neatly in the corridor, you're set.<BR>
> A couple of inches on one side or the other just makes it a good<BR>
> shield for the person rolling the grenade past it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ethan<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Just don't miss.  Anyway, I suggested the body bunker as an alternative to<BR>
'nothing'.  I'd like to see anyone roll a grenade down a corridor and though<BR>
a six inch gap while under fire. The body bunker is moving.  And the person<BR>
using the shield can move it to block the grenade--oops.  Further, the<BR>
bunker was specified as having a high intensity light on it (ouch, I can't<BR>
see), and we added a concussion charge (e.g. Accuracy Systems ThunderStrip)<BR>
to the front of it.  The assault team is in a 'stack' behind the bunker and<BR>
giving fire.  The bunker is not static, but rather the lead troop is<BR>
charging forward into the fire from behind his mobile cover, members of the<BR>
assault team close behind.<BR>
<BR>
To me, this is much better than charging down a ship's corridor with no<BR>
cover.  Because the body bunker is not meant to be carried great distances,<BR>
it can be made relatively heavy, and with a level of armor protection in<BR>
excess of anything normally worn.<BR>
<BR>
To explain in more detail, since it appears this is not clear:<BR>
<BR>
Hull is breached.  Lead elements shower the immediate area of ingress with<BR>
grenades (frag or stun/flash, depending if they care about<BR>
hostages/prisoners).  Immediately afterward, the primary assault team<BR>
charges into the ship (or building).  The body bunker, with its high<BR>
intensity light and heavy armor, is carried by the point man.  The rest of<BR>
the team is immediately behind to provide support and cover fire.  The whole<BR>
team charges to its first objective, applying fire to any targets they<BR>
encounter.  In the event of heavy enemy fire, the team can take advantage of<BR>
the mobile cover afforded by the bunker, while waiting for heavy weapons to<BR>
be brought up from the rear of the stack, to throw or launch grenades, to<BR>
fall back under cover or to allow team B to attack from the flank/rear.<BR>
<BR>
The alternative seems to be to do the same thing, only without the added<BR>
protection of the shield.  How is this better?<BR>
<BR>
Note:  Since I have no experience boarding ships, I am forced to rely on<BR>
MOUNT and police examples.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2717<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2718<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
Aimed directly at Loren<BR>
RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:34:46 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:26:07 -0400 (EDT), "Rupert Boleyn"<BR>
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On 4 Jul 00, at 17:07, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> With all this back-and-forth about the draft being equivalent to<BR>
>> slavery, think about one thing:<BR>
 <BR>
>> The United States Code defines the militia as including all males<BR>
>> from ages 18 to 45, and all female officers of the National<BR>
>> Guard.<BR>
 <BR>
>> The Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power to<BR>
>> call out the militia.<BR>
<BR>
>Is the United States Code part of the Constitution? If it isn't it <BR>
>gaives the federal government all kinds of interesting powers, just by <BR>
>changing it.<BR>
<BR>
The United States Code is not part of the Constitution.  However,<BR>
the term "militia" as used in the Constitution is not defined; it<BR>
is therefore necessary to look elsewhere for that definition.<BR>
The definition as it currently stands in the United States Code<BR>
does not appear inconsistent with the attitudes of the Founders,<BR>
though it is in fact more specific than anything the Founders set<BR>
out.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:32:40 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Aimed directly at Loren<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam PuRSe<BR>
<BR>
Capable of stopping most muggers and some armoured personell carriers, the<BR>
Famile Spofulam Personal Rocket System fits within a handbag, but brings a<BR>
level of security than only 40mm of Self-Forging Projectile can guarantee.<BR>
<BR>
Famile Spofulam - with us, safety comes first, second and third.<BR>
<BR>
TL8 ; 500 grams, 120 credits (including obscene profit margin).<BR>
<BR>
Rocket is 100 grams of TL8 solid fuel, capable of 294 newton-seconds of<BR>
thrust, for 0.1 seconds. By my numbers, this translates to a speed of 100<BR>
ms-1 after the burn phase ends.<BR>
<BR>
Warhead is a 200 gram 40 mm Rocket warhead. SEFOP wahead is pen 68, DV 2. HE<BR>
is DV 5. Concussion is DV 8 (non-lethal). Or you could use it as a Flare gun<BR>
(100m illumination radius).<BR>
<BR>
Weapon includes a hollow pistol grip and 100 grams worth of plastic runner<BR>
to help aim the rocket.<BR>
<BR>
******************<BR>
Well, what do people think ? I guess we could build a militarised version,<BR>
with a magazine, and a real stock and stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Legals note that it could be sold as a flare gun, with the SEFOP warhead as<BR>
an unauthorised after-market modification.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 15:54:54 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
You worked on Dr. Who - you must be a god. We're not worthy!!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ben<BR>
> Aaronovitch<BR>
> Sent: 04 July 2000 06:25<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I remember being very impressed when working on Doctor<BR>
> Who<BR>
> that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
> investment considering<BR>
> the cheapness of the prog) researching the insignia for<BR>
> the RAF Regiment.<BR>
> <BR>
> The BBC were really good at anything historical.<BR>
> Absolutely crap at<BR>
> anything speculative.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:39:00 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So did the AAI entry, whereas the Colt entry used a duplex round (as<BR>
> I'm sure you know), while H&K entered a modified G11. BTW do you know<BR>
> just how "real" the official reason for dumping the project (that none<BR>
> gave enough extra hit chance at range than the M16A2) was?<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
It should be noted that some of the sources I use are in the industry and<BR>
had candidate that were rejected.<BR>
<BR>
The Jist of the whole ACR foldup was that there was no significant<BR>
improvement in hit probability and lethality over existing systems, at least<BR>
none that justified the cost of issuing a new individual weapon, when the M1<BR>
seemed to be adequate.  A big factor was the point target shooting under<BR>
stress.  Nothing did well here.  Hit rates were appalling even at short<BR>
range.<BR>
<BR>
And toward the end of the tests, the OICW was already coming up.  It was the<BR>
next great thing, and so, like the SPIW, the ACR kind  of dried up.  The<BR>
fact is, and I think Ian Hogg has written extensively on this, small arm<BR>
have reached a plateau.  And it is going to take a hell of a lot of money to<BR>
bring in the 'next step', whatever that is.<BR>
<BR>
I've often wondered why the US didn't at least adopt the multi-projectile<BR>
round.  The 2 bullet 5.56 variant increases hit probability by 67%, though<BR>
at the expense of range.  The army insists it troops need to be able to<BR>
engage targets at ridiculous ranges, despite all evidence to the contrary.<BR>
Go figure?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:40:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 9:12, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Hey, the US 106mm recoilless rifle has a canister load.  Just the thing<BR>
>> for clearing hallways. 106mm shaped charges too.  Hmmmm.<BR>
> <BR>
> Seen the 106mm HEAT fired. That weapon would be just about as dangerous<BR>
> in a hallway because of its blast as for its projectile (and that's for<BR>
> either end). The night firing was especially impressive - 20m fireballs<BR>
> at both ends, and the ground shakes, too. Also impressive was the 10m<BR>
> pine tree 20m behind the firing postion - it was dead the next day.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Yeah, pretty cool.  Someone else mentioned the RCL Rifle first.  I just like<BR>
the idea of a 106mm canister round (BIG Shotgun).  For enclosed spaces,<BR>
something like the Armbrust makes much more sense.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:44:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:23 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 15:06, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
>> serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
> <BR>
> By blowing a hole right through it and waiting for the occupant's siut<BR>
> air supplies to run out. Alternatively by telling them to come out or<BR>
> you'll blow the whole thing into vapour with them still in it.<BR>
> Naturally if they've booby-trapped it and your marine boarding party<BR>
> gets wasted you zap them with all those anti-missile lasers you've got<BR>
> sitting around.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
IMTU, close range and targeting radars are just the think for naughty people<BR>
in vacc suits.  Just like JiffyPop (which, if you're not familiar, is<BR>
popcorn in an aluminum pan/top.  The aluminum swells up as the popcorn fills<BR>
it.  Well--you get the idea.<BR>
<BR>
I'm told that fighter aircraft targeting radar will kill rabbits and such,<BR>
hence the though.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 15:50:28 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 3:20 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
> Which one? You sound like a Starship Troopers type, but his various<BR>
> other books between them support just about any kind of democracy aside<BR>
> from radical Athenian ones. This is simething many critics of ST who<BR>
> consider it Heilein's personal philosophy like to forget.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
> <BR>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
The first Heinlein I read was "Have spacesuit: will travel" followed<BR>
immediately by ST.  I was too young to realize I was getting my political<BR>
indoctrination.<BR>
<BR>
I still enjoy ST, mostly because it 'feels' right.  Anyone who's been<BR>
through basic knows what I mean, whether or not they agree with RH's<BR>
philosophy as espoused in that book.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I've read several copies of ST to pieces.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "unapologetic RAH fan" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:05:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is a partial reprint of my 'Shields made of modern materials' post.<BR>
<BR>
An example is a 1cm by 1.5 meter by 1 meter shield is 0.01x1.5x1.0 or 0.015<BR>
m3 of material.<BR>
<BR>
If it was built out of TL9 Light Ceramic Composite, it would mass 6*15<BR>
kilos, or 90 kilos, and would have an AV of 8.57.<BR>
<BR>
OK, lets add some Explosive Reactive Armour onto the front.<BR>
<BR>
FFS2 seems to say that ERA has a volume of .2 m3 per m^2 of coverage - it's<BR>
20cm thick.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm. If we assume it is 1g per cc (kinda reasonable for plastic explosive.<BR>
Marc, seeing as how the authors never actually got paid for FFS2, can we<BR>
just bite the bullet and release FFS3 ? I think a TML ?Swede? has a clean,<BR>
errata-free electronic copy ...), then that adds .3 m3 of ERA for another<BR>
300 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
The body bunker is up to 390 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Stuff this. I'm building myself a TL9 boarding sled.<BR>
<BR>
Prpoulsion is going to be a 7.3 kN HRF liquid rocket (KCr 27, 27kgs, 53 m3<BR>
fuel per hour <I used HRF because LOx and LHyd are easier for P!r!t!s to<BR>
find than kero>).<BR>
<BR>
Include fuel in 15 second packs (0.25m3, 0.1t, Cr 75 each)<BR>
<BR>
Main armament is a pair of FS Light Plasma Guns, for 17 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
One triple-thickness 1.5x1m Body Shield out front, for 270 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
ERA out front, for 300 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
8 single-thickness Body Shields (2 each for top, bottom, left and right,<BR>
making it 2m long and 1.5m wide), for 720 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
Unit mass is therefore about 2000 kilos, with seven 15 second fuel packs.<BR>
<BR>
The HFR rocket will accelerate this at 3m per second per second.<BR>
<BR>
Unit cost is KCr 32, plus the ERA. AV is 9 on the sides, nil at the back, at<BR>
26 at the front, plus 20 points of ERA. I dunno, call it KCr 60, including<BR>
the ERA and profit margin.<BR>
<BR>
A common user modification is to put a second HRF rocket out front, to solve<BR>
the annoying problem of having to turn around to decelerate.<BR>
<BR>
<Famaile Spofulam Light Plasma Gun (TL10).<BR>
<BR>
0.4kg firing unit ; Cr 480<BR>
0.4 kg support hardware ; Cr 480<BR>
0.3 kg Gyro-Compensator ; Cr 180<BR>
0.01 kg Action ; Cr 5 (NB : TL11 model will be rapid fire)<BR>
24 kg cartridges ; Cr 5<BR>
Magazine for 20 cartridges ; 1.92 kilos, Cr 20<BR>
20 cartridges ; 4.8 kilos, Cr 100<BR>
Plastic Stock ; 0.5 kg ; Cr 30<BR>
Weapon mass : 8.33 kilos full<BR>
Weapon price : Cr 1300 empty ; full magazines cost Cr 120 and mass 6.72<BR>
kilos.<BR>
<BR>
Range : 33m effective range<BR>
Damage : 8.94 (if damage is on the usual x^2 falloff, it means that you have<BR>
DV of 2 at 66m, and DV of 1 at 100m. FWIW using my 'Making Energy Weapons<BR>
Work in FFS2' rules gives it a DV of 57 at short range. This falls to a DV<BR>
of 27 at 66m and to 18 at 100m)><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 16:11:34 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Some time back, there was a discussion about the merits of the shield (body<BR>
>>bunker) and its utility in shipboard combat.  My wife has a few suggestion<BR>
>>for the bunker to increase its utility, and I'm curious to know the List's<BR>
>>thoughts.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Given that a TL 7 body bunker can stop an armor piercing round from a rifle<BR>
>>at around 12 kg of mass (American Body Armor builds such an item for use by<BR>
>>law enforcement), she suggested adding wheels (this is done now) and<BR>
> fitting<BR>
>>a concussion charge to the face--something like the Accuracy Systems<BR>
>>ThunderStrip.  Starship actions are ordinarily going to be very messing<BR>
>>given all the 'killing funnels' that exist.  Would such a body bunker be<BR>
>>effective in T4, CT or other systems? Thoughts on it's use as an offensive<BR>
>>or defensive item.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Ian, you now have wheels (and possibly power assist)  Can we now build a<BR>
>>bunker that's actually useful?<BR>
><BR>
> It would be possible to lob a grenade over the top or around the edge. This<BR>
> would seem to be a major disadvantage.<BR>
<BR>
Just include some spring loaded "flaps" that press against the walls<BR>
and ceiling. That'll prevent grenades and other nasties from getting<BR>
past the shield.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm also wondering how awkward such a thing would be given the fact<BR>
> that gravity is a variable in starship combat. How would such a thing<BR>
> work under 0G, for example. Perhaps it might be desirable to include<BR>
> a contra-gravity module in the design to compensate for this.<BR>
<BR>
Or just a second set of wheels that run along the celing, and a way to<BR>
strap yourself to the shield. That'd make grav pong a lot less useful.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:10:46<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
At 10:37 AM 7/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm a Libertarian.  I can't understand how it can be other than involuntary<BR>
>servitude.  If you don't want to go but you have to, and you will be thrown<BR>
>in jail and lose your rights if you don't anyway, then it's certainly not<BR>
>voluntary and it's definitely servitude.<BR>
<BR>
So is jury duty.  It's part of the obligation of a free culture.<BR>
<BR>
>If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
>to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
>and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a genuine<BR>
>threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript them?<BR>
>This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of conscription<BR>
>is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  Despite the films of lines outside the recruiting offices, they did<BR>
need to draft men in huge numbers.  You see, everybody was trying to enlist<BR>
in the Navy, and avoid going to war with a rifle in their hands.<BR>
<BR>
The way the military establishment in the US is supposed to work is we have<BR>
a small, professional Army that can be quickly enlarged by activating the<BR>
reserves (mostly National Guard formations) and rapidly filling slots with<BR>
new troops, either volunteers or draftees.  That isn't quite as feasible in<BR>
the current, high-tech Army, but we still keep a large portion of our<BR>
combat power in the National Guard.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Embrace Fascism.    The uniforms look cool<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:16:15 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 15:06, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
> > serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
> <BR>
> By blowing a hole right through it and waiting for the occupant's siut<BR>
> air supplies to run out. Alternatively by telling them to come out or<BR>
> you'll blow the whole thing into vapour with them still in it.<BR>
> Naturally if they've booby-trapped it and your marine boarding party<BR>
> gets wasted you zap them with all those anti-missile lasers you've got<BR>
> sitting around.<BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'm rather fond of using NPAWs against enemy ships.  The<BR>
radiation effects are extremely useful in attriting the enemy crew. <BR>
Once the enemy crewbeings are dead or incapacitated from radiation,<BR>
boarding becomes relatively simple.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:38:33 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 4:16 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Personally, I'm rather fond of using NPAWs against enemy ships.  The<BR>
> radiation effects are extremely useful in attriting the enemy crew.<BR>
> Once the enemy crewbeings are dead or incapacitated from radiation,<BR>
> boarding becomes relatively simple.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Hey, just for yucks, after disabling the drives, wrap a big inductance coil<BR>
around the vessel. Shoot in a little wine, butter and garlic.  Bake at 350<BR>
for two hours. Mmmm, crew al la provence.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 16:45:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 4:05 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>> Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> This is a partial reprint of my 'Shields made of modern materials' post.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> Range : 33m effective range<BR>
> Damage : 8.94 (if damage is on the usual x^2 falloff, it means that you have<BR>
> DV of 2 at 66m, and DV of 1 at 100m. FWIW using my 'Making Energy Weapons<BR>
> Work in FFS2' rules gives it a DV of 57 at short range. This falls to a DV<BR>
> of 27 at 66m and to 18 at 100m)><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Ian, I want you to know I'm saving all these for potential future use.<BR>
<BR>
This one reminds me of our battle ball, specifically designed for a race of<BR>
rodent-derived sophonts.  Ball was an armored sphere designed to fit though<BR>
a standard hatch.  Guns and stuff in all the appropriate places.<BR>
<BR>
Question.  If high AV's end up massing so much, how can you get effective<BR>
body armor.  It seems to be impossible to have any non-powered armor that<BR>
can stand up to hand carried small arms, and Powered suits would have<BR>
obscene masses.<BR>
<BR>
I take it that FFS2 pretty much rules out combat armor or battle dress.  I'm<BR>
really getting discouraged.  How's a soft, pink soph supposed to have any<BR>
chance of surviving combat?<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to see FFS3, as well.  Provided they make some corrections.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:49:24 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
At 04:35 PM 07/04/2000, you wrote:<BR>
<snip><BR>
Jeff,<BR>
<BR>
I believe that you would like the magic rules "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by P. <BR>
Bonewitz, Steve Jackson Games has published it in the past. The first <BR>
Edition that I has very concise rules for magic(ie Law of Contagion, <BR>
Similarity, etc). I have not bought the edition by SJ Games edition, yet. <BR>
The edition I have has no game system bias at all. But I believe that the <BR>
one by SJ Games will have bias towards GURPS.<G><BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:53:15 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> on 7/4/00 4:16 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Personally, I'm rather fond of using NPAWs against enemy ships.  The<BR>
> > radiation effects are extremely useful in attriting the enemy crew.<BR>
> > Once the enemy crewbeings are dead or incapacitated from radiation,<BR>
> > boarding becomes relatively simple.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Hey, just for yucks, after disabling the drives, wrap a big inductance coil<BR>
> around the vessel. Shoot in a little wine, butter and garlic.  Bake at 350<BR>
> for two hours. Mmmm, crew al la provence.<BR>
<BR>
<homer> "Mmmmmm.  Sauted long pig...." </homer> ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> --<BR>
> "Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
> killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
<BR>
It would seem, sir, that you have spent some time working on recipes.<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
> --<BR>
> Tod Glenn<BR>
> mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
> http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:04:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote,<BR>
>However, the term "militia" as used in the Constitution is not defined; it<BR>
is therefore necessary to look elsewhere for that definition.<<BR>
<BR>
The Constitution also gives Congress the power to define and set training<BR>
requirements and such for the militia. So it is eminently reasonable to look<BR>
to whatever they have established for such.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:06:39 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
>Which one? You sound like a Starship Troopers type, but his various<BR>
other books between them support just about any kind of democracy aside<BR>
from radical Athenian ones. This is simething many critics of ST who<BR>
consider it Heilein's personal philosophy like to forget.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <<BR>
<BR>
Between The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and the various Lazarus Long books, I<BR>
always got the feeling he preferred Anarchy to anything else.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:15:03 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
At 05:44 PM 07/04/2000, you wrote:<BR>
><snip><BR>
>IMTU, close range and targeting radars are just the think for naughty people<BR>
>in vacc suits.  Just like JiffyPop (which, if you're not familiar, is<BR>
>popcorn in an aluminum pan/top.  The aluminum swells up as the popcorn fills<BR>
>it.  Well--you get the idea.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm told that fighter aircraft targeting radar will kill rabbits and such,<BR>
>hence the though.<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
Tod,<BR>
<BR>
In my naval days at Great Lakes Naval Base was search radar nicknamed the <BR>
"Seagull Cooker" power output was greater than 1 megawatt, the last time it <BR>
was used there due to student tinkering, it used full power in a sweep <BR>
across the base inshore and offshore. The surrounding area did not care for <BR>
the results. After that it was removed from Great Lakes.<BR>
<BR>
The old Talos missile system had beam pointer that had 5 megawatts in beam, <BR>
Seasparrow beam pointer is/was 5 kilowatts in beam, the injuring zone for <BR>
the SeaSparrow was greater than 100 yards. I don't recall what CIWS power <BR>
out was.<BR>
<BR>
Radars for use in space would/should have power out in the megawatt ranges <BR>
if not gigawatt. Point defense radars will be in the megawatt range. So <BR>
anything closer than 100 meters will have serious microwave burn issues. By <BR>
the way the areas first affected by full body exposure in a male are <BR>
testicles and eyes.<BR>
<BR>
I when I work center sup for Mk 23 TAS one of technicians was sterilized by <BR>
our radar due to the severe wave guide leakage. It was a newly installed <BR>
system from the Long Beach NS. No permanent injury just embarrassing sperm <BR>
count tests at the base medical center.<G><BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 17:21:07 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 11:58 AM, SD Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 21:52 -0400 3/7/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> If I understand correctly, damage applied to a target is reduced by armor.<BR>
>> Rigid armor nullifies a die, and flexible armor reduces a die by 1.  I<BR>
>> assume there is some AV attached to different armor types so that armor may<BR>
>> effect 1, 2 or possibly more dice.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yup, armour is rated in numbers of dice.<BR>
> <BR>
>> Question 1:  What is the typical AV of say a CES or combat armor?<BR>
> <BR>
> ABD 13 (Augmented Battledress TL13) = 9R<BR>
> ABD 10 = 7R<BR>
> Cloth 7 = 1F<BR>
> <BR>
> No CES in standard rules but we (BITS) rated it at 5F on a TLAR principle...<BR>
<BR>
So if I understand this correctly, there is no hope of injuring someone<BR>
wearing CES with a rifle,  i.e. a rifle is a 4D weapon in T4, and CES has a<BR>
AV rated at 5 flexible.  The best one can do is 4 (all three die reduced to<BR>
ones).  Even if I use my .458 elephant rifle, a gun that can send a 32 gram<BR>
monolithic solid out at 730 m/sec and pierce a 75 cm thick elephant skull,<BR>
the best I can hope for is 10 points of damage?! I've personally put these<BR>
rounds through an automotive engine block.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know T4 well, so I pull the books (Basic book and "Emperors<BR>
arsenal").  Most illuminating. I am trying to figure out what TL10 weapons<BR>
one uses against ABD-10.  A TL10 sniper rifle is only 6D, and given each AV<BR>
of rigid armor nullifies id D of damage, I see that the sniper rifle is<BR>
totally useless against ABD-10. Grenades do 8, so there's some potential (1D<BR>
damage not soaked up by armor).  I'm getting depressed<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> ACQ's way of dealing with shotguns is detailed on p23, and I won't<BR>
> deal with it here as it is quite long winded. It does account for AP<BR>
> rounds in shotshells though.<BR>
> <BR>
> "Doug, the nasty man is using acronyms I don't know!" = SCMITR<BR>
> <BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
Dom, I don't know SCMITR either, nor have I been able to find out what it<BR>
stands for.  But I know what it is.  See previous posts, or take a look at:<BR>
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/scmitr.gif<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2718<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2719</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 4 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2719<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (and related topics)<BR>
Social theorizing<BR>
Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Roc: OT jury nullification<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
Re: Roc: OT jury nullification<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
RE: Magic<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 19:53:27 -0400<BR>
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@erols.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (and related topics)<BR>
<BR>
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
 <BR>
>  Gee, I'd already had three different addresses on the TML by then, nearly<BR>
> given George Herbert a heart attack, developed the requisite glassy stare<BR>
> while reading Catie Helm's TML geochemistry lectures, and watched Rob post<BR>
> his credit card info to the list. I was also one of the heartless gits who<BR>
> set up the circumstances for the GEnie-TML wars, along with Carl Fago.<BR>
> <BR>
>  And I know what the cereal company reference means 'cause I read that story<BR>
> in its original posting. AH, the memories...<BR>
<BR>
You'll have to send me a note offline with your former identities, as I<BR>
don't<BR>
have you connected with my memories yet. (-:<BR>
<BR>
Ah, the credit card incident--early adventures in e-commerce. (-: You<BR>
know,<BR>
that was not the only time I was stung by the default current message<BR>
setting of that email program, but it was certainly the most<BR>
spectacular.<BR>
It was a bit difficult to get the bank to understand the potential<BR>
seriousness<BR>
of the matter, though, as most of the "information superhighway" hype<BR>
was<BR>
still in the future.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, on the spin-offs of this topic--am I the only one who hasn't<BR>
run a campaign that was firearms heavy?  Very few of my face-to-face<BR>
sessions (limited though they might be despite the length of my<BR>
association<BR>
with the game--I too bought the LBBs the day they first hit the game<BR>
store)<BR>
ever involved anyone using a firearm.  Players have had their ships shot<BR>
up<BR>
in space combat, especially during the Fifth Frontier War, though.<BR>
<BR>
As far as cereal companies go, Scott used to use that line pretty<BR>
frequently,<BR>
which is why he took to signing his name Scott (2-G) Kellogg.  <BR>
<BR>
Now, how many of you other list geezers think that it was better when<BR>
everyone<BR>
had to use digest mode? (-:<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 20:06:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@erols.com><BR>
Subject: Social theorizing<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
> <BR>
> At 10:37 AM 7/4/2000 -0700, you <Sorry folks, attribution lost here--Rob> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I'm a Libertarian.  I can't understand how it can be other than involuntary<BR>
> >servitude.  If you don't want to go but you have to, and you will be thrown<BR>
> >in jail and lose your rights if you don't anyway, then it's certainly not<BR>
> >voluntary and it's definitely servitude.<BR>
> <BR>
> So is jury duty.  It's part of the obligation of a free culture.<BR>
<BR>
One might consider reading Plato's dialogue _Critias_ which includes a<BR>
discussion of implied social contracts among other issues.  I must admit<BR>
that I've been reading more history and philosophy than SF lately,<BR>
though<BR>
the treatment of the former _in_ the better examples of the latter<BR>
helped<BR>
develop my taste for the subjects...<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:03:13 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: I am a Heretic...<BR>
<BR>
The subsector has all its populated systems (in theory) near the core of the <BR>
subsector...the perimeter of the Subsector is guarded 4 parsecs deep <BR>
(obviously some ships may get by this, also the shear quantity of ships <BR>
involved is impossible...so in some areas..protection is thin, also AIs <BR>
protect computers from many strains of the virus but it isnt impossible to <BR>
beat them and you know if characters want to "do alittle outside the <BR>
subsector privateering with their ship and can get away with it...more power <BR>
to crime and the story....as it is, Virus isnt taking this little subsector <BR>
resistance lightly....A planetwide mining operation under direct control of a <BR>
certain virus-ridden high-tech computer with robotic help and plenty of human <BR>
machinist/electronics expert slaves and mucho manpower..has created the <BR>
nephilum infiltrator units (basically terminators) and "minions" <BR>
(high-firepower AIs in robotic bodies) to slowly take over planet populations <BR>
by replacing doctors with human looking nephilum....getting peoples stats <BR>
when they visit the "doctor" and then when they return for a followup <BR>
visit...they are killed and replaced (obviously they arent "sick" anymore) <BR>
and then the "replacement" drugs his/her family secretly with low level drugs <BR>
and they'll feel sick and go to the "doctor"....and so on and so on.  These <BR>
infiltrators know the weak points in the subsector defences after 70 years of <BR>
studying them and the particular virus strain doesnt let any other strains <BR>
near the subsector if it can help it....it wants its own subsector playtoy.<BR>
<BR>
the characters are just starting this story<BR>
they are going to freak<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
omensigil<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:27:38 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker revisited<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Bankhead wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
> >portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just part<BR>
> >of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
><BR>
> There was a very old White Dwarf article which suggested various means of<BR>
> combating boarding parties.<BR>
><BR>
> ie<BR>
><BR>
> Strobe Lighting<BR>
><BR>
> High / Low pressure on either side of a hatch with the high pressure side<BR>
> floor strewn with crap.  Open the hatch and get a face full of rubbish<BR>
><BR>
> Armoured fold down door with weapon locks (like a fold down garage door)<BR>
><BR>
> Fluctating G fields<BR>
><BR>
> I probably still have the article somewhere.<BR>
><BR>
> Stephen<BR>
<BR>
I remember that one....one trap was a fake airlock with a High Energy Weapon<BR>
behind a fake inner door...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:35:30 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
> serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
The closest parallel concept I can think of is Urban Combat...real house to house<BR>
fighting...only with added problems...variable G...variable<BR>
atmosphere...etc...there is probably no way save experienced troops and luck that<BR>
this can be acheieved...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:33:23 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 15:39, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've often wondered why the US didn't at least adopt the multi-projectile<BR>
> round.  The 2 bullet 5.56 variant increases hit probability by 67%, though<BR>
> at the expense of range.  The army insists it troops need to be able to<BR>
> engage targets at ridiculous ranges, despite all evidence to the contrary.<BR>
> Go figure?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect the Germans dropping the G11 (for budgetary reasons) may have <BR>
had something to do with it. There's no longer any need to keep up with <BR>
the Joneses. From what I've seen from the German tests of the G11 its <BR>
2100 rpm 3-round bursts also increased hit probabilities quite <BR>
dramatically for aimed shooting. It's interesting that the "new" <BR>
Russian AN-94, which is slowly entering service uses a similar 1800 rom <BR>
burst system to get better hit chances.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:34:37 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 15:40, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah, pretty cool.  Someone else mentioned the RCL Rifle first.  I just<BR>
> like the idea of a 106mm canister round (BIG Shotgun).  For enclosed<BR>
> spaces, something like the Armbrust makes much more sense.<BR>
<BR>
Make for fun work at T-junctions, though. You could clear both <BR>
directions at once :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:37:23 EDT<BR>
From: OMENSIGIL@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
"at least got the idea that magical attack is a contest of Will"...Im not out <BR>
to attack your belief....that is not my purpose here...but the "contest of <BR>
Will" may not be an accurate assessment or at least correct words to use...Im <BR>
NOT defending AD&D..dislike the game myself  but "Will" is the ability to get <BR>
something done when you say and/or want something done (ie. I will clean my <BR>
bedroom; will you do the dishes;...and if you get those things done or you <BR>
overcome the obstacles in your way and get those things done inspite of <BR>
resistance you have some "willpower")<BR>
<BR>
but consider this...The Terminator...or a cockroach.  The Terminators "will" <BR>
was all-consuming, no arguement in its ability to get things done...A <BR>
cockroach...eat, and spawn and crawl fast....its "will" is also all-consuming <BR>
and all its energy is put to its purpose (at least we hope).  <BR>
<BR>
So, im assuming, and please forgive me if im wrong or if im wounding you <BR>
spiritually in some way, that some part of magic would come from your soul in <BR>
such a way that reality responds to it..and as each persons soul is different <BR>
(or energy is differently expressed in each persons body for you atheists out <BR>
there) different ways of expression exist for at least 6-billion people on <BR>
earth.  So why cant one persons way of making a spell(creating it or <BR>
whatever) be a combination of them Believing in their soul that magic works <BR>
in the AD&D way and their "will" and the combo of the two would make it <BR>
happen just like it.....Or is there only One way to do a spell....is that a <BR>
formulaic sentence for your "will" or what.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
I personally believe that if I act on something I get it <BR>
accomplished...without the use of spells of any kind...mundane works for <BR>
me.....am I unspiritual or what;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:42:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 16:45, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Question.  If high AV's end up massing so much, how can you get effective<BR>
> body armor.  It seems to be impossible to have any non-powered armor that<BR>
> can stand up to hand carried small arms, and Powered suits would have<BR>
> obscene masses.<BR>
> <BR>
> I take it that FFS2 pretty much rules out combat armor or battle dress. <BR>
> I'm really getting discouraged.  How's a soft, pink soph supposed to have<BR>
> any chance of surviving combat?<BR>
<BR>
Do what I do (as a TNE fan/junkie) and stick with FFS1, which allows <BR>
you to make fine Battledress. Just remember not to use batteries - use <BR>
fuel cells instead.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:48:45 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: OT jury nullification<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 8:20:am<BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 8:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The problem is not the lawyers ability to reject certain jurors (this is<BR>
> > limited BTW).  The real problem, IMHO is citizens who will do anything<BR>
to<BR>
> > keep from serving on a jury.  I've had co workers brag about their<BR>
> > techniques of avoiding service on a jury.  Everyone want the benefits.<BR>
No<BR>
> > one wants the responsibility.<BR>
><BR>
> That really galls me, too. Most of my friends and I would be quite<BR>
> happy to do so, but the only ones I know of who were called up were<BR>
> dismissed, probably because of their University degrees.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
How does jury selection work over there?  In Oz, the only info the<BR>
barristers/lawyers/etc. have is your name (which may possess ethnic hints<BR>
towards predispossed ideals), your address (which may possess predispossed<BR>
ideals based upon wealth and standard of living), age (again, predispossed<BR>
ideals based upon dated beliefs/notions), occupation (again, standard of<BR>
living, battler status, etc.), and marrital status (personal ideals in<BR>
family related matters), but they do not include information on educational<BR>
levels, whether you have children, or even a pet dog.  These are the only<BR>
things available in writing that a prospective juror can be challanged<BR>
(defense) or stood by (prosection) with... other than that, they can see how<BR>
you are dressed, how you wear your hair, and how you carry yourself.<BR>
<BR>
In a recent "Jury Service" of 2-weeks duration (one of several, during this<BR>
one I was not sucessfully empanelled), there were two cases where a male<BR>
(different bloke in each case - a week apart) was charged with several<BR>
counts of "Dealing with a person under the age of 16 - being, in this<BR>
instance, <a female's name>, and being, in this instance, a person under the<BR>
age of 14..." where no woman above the age of 25 was selected to either of<BR>
the cases... I wonder what predispossed notions older women have about child<BR>
molesting?<BR>
<BR>
> > My issue with a judge only trial is that you are relying on one person<BR>
> > who's judgement may not be any better than twelve jury members.  I can<BR>
> > think of one federal judge in particular of whom it was said that you<BR>
his<BR>
> > ruling were dependant on whether or not he had a good breakfast.<BR>
><BR>
> In the town where I used to live one judge was heard to say "the next<BR>
> drunk driver I get goes inside", and the next drunk driver did, for a<BR>
> first offense that had hurt no-one but himself. While I understand the<BR>
> judge's actions (his daughter had died after a drunk driver hit her the<BR>
> week before), it seems a fairly arbitary way of running a justice<BR>
> system.<BR>
<BR>
We also have a "Hanging Judge" locally, and ALWAYS in relation to<BR>
drink-driving, regardless of the level - he has a minimum fine or sentence.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:05:09 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
From: XXOmenXXX@aol.com<BR>
> AAAAAGH! .. To you all..<BR>
><BR>
> I play games.. with MAGIC oh my.. Because I know.. its just a GAME..<BR>
> thats right guys.. G-A-M-E.. what does that spell Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.<BR>
<BR>
Well, for the first guy and his friends, there is a serious moral thing<BR>
involved.  <BR>
<BR>
For me though, it's just a case of it being a bit irritating.  I usually<BR>
GM, and I keep running into walls when I'm designing stuff, because the<BR>
magic tends to rupture my (probably over-elaborate) economic gearheading.<BR>
<BR>
> From:  Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
> I have the same problem with AD&D and 90% of the fantasy novels out there<BR>
> that a good hard scientist has with the bad science in so much science<BR>
> fiction-- I know too much to be able to get into it.  (As my pal ikaros<BR>
> says, "I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but not to hang it by the<BR>
> neck until dead.")<BR>
<BR>
Yeah.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri again about my possible "Roman" game:<BR>
> That WOULD be a fun game.  But you could use a better rules system to do<BR>
> it.<BR>
<BR>
I could - but people _actually play_ AD&D.<BR>
<BR>
You are actually right.  Runequest might be better, but it's become a<BR>
fairly obscure game, like Traveller.  (I also would have to play a hybrid<BR>
of RQ 2 and 3, since I don't have the actual RQ3 rules, and I wouldn't be<BR>
playing Glorantha.)<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't do a straight Roman game, but instead I would pinch bits of lots<BR>
of early Italian societies:  Etruscans, Samnites and so on, as well as the<BR>
bits of early Rome and classical Greece that I want.  This allows filing<BR>
off the serial numbers, so no players can be more clever than me. <BR>
(Etruscan religion seems kind of interesting.)<BR>
<BR>
My other problem is that I don't live in the Northern hemisphere.  My<BR>
experience with "European" climates and landscapes isn't particularly<BR>
broad, so I'm left with sticking cultures into geographical settings where<BR>
they don't really belong.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I'm over-analysing.  I can short-circuit a lot of this by basing my<BR>
game in and around cities - but then I have to pay more attention to the<BR>
social structures.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 18:52:24 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>By the way, on the spin-offs of this topic--am I the only one who hasn't<BR>
>run a campaign that was firearms heavy?<BR>
<BR>
I never have. All of the games which I have run have been fairly peaceful.<BR>
More political and economic maneuvering, involving large interstellar<BR>
governments or megacorporations.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:04:48 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In the wars where there was a genuine<BR>
> threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript them?<BR>
> This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of conscription<BR>
> is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
Back then the draft was just a way of "organizing" things and smoothing<BR>
out the flow. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:10:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I can't stomach AD&D magick because it is so far removed from anything that<BR>
> magick actually is that it is almost offensive to me.<BR>
><BR>
> I have the same problem with AD&D and 90% of the fantasy novels out there<BR>
> that a good hard scientist has with the bad science in so much science<BR>
> fiction-- I know too much to be able to get into it.  (As my pal ikaros<BR>
> says, "I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but not to hang it by the neck<BR>
> until dead.")<BR>
<BR>
Ever take a look at "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by Bonewits? I haven't<BR>
checked out the new GURPS version, but the older version *was* an<BR>
attempt to balance real magical practice against game needs. <BR>
<BR>
As I recall, he did a reasonable job. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, while I'm no expert, I have read a few *real* grimoires<BR>
(translated into mostly modern English) a friend (who is much more<BR>
serious than I am) had. They cured me of the "instant magic" syndrome.<BR>
<BR>
I could see "realistic" magic having a small part in a TU. Given that<BR>
even the simplest ritual can take *weeks* of preparation it won't<BR>
unbalance things much, even if powerful effects are possible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:33:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> What I do have an objection to is "illogical" magic.  I don't<BR>
> like a magic "system" where spells that are superficially similar<BR>
> have no actual relationship to each other - i.e., where magic<BR>
> can't be treated as at least an _empirical_ science, where if I<BR>
> learn, say, stone-to-flesh, the knowledge and experience involved<BR>
> in learning and using that spell is totally irrelevant to the<BR>
> learning of metal-to-flesh.  Give me _organized_ magic in a game,<BR>
> I'm content.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if it's *Chinese* magic, they won't be related, because stone and<BR>
metal aspects of *different* elements, The Chinese have *5* elements,<BR>
one of which is metal. I forget what the rest are, but I'm pretty sure<BR>
that "stone" isn't an aspect of "metal".<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Give me a system where magic is accomplished<BR>
> through summoning of various levels and types of demons, it still<BR>
> had better be consistent; I want to be able to cross-reference<BR>
> demon types and levels with spell effects, and be able to predict<BR>
> at the very least what level and/or type of demon I'm going to<BR>
> need to accomplish a new spell.<BR>
<BR>
You'd like the actual *historical* magic systems in the West then. The<BR>
demons (and angels) had hierarchies, and each "specialized" in certain<BR>
areas. So if you needed something done that related to that area, you<BR>
summoned a Power that handled that area.<BR>
<BR>
And since most real tasks tend to involve multiple areas, you get more<BR>
than one chance.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:39:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> With all this back-and-forth about the draft being equivalent to<BR>
> slavery, think about one thing:<BR>
><BR>
> The United States Code defines the militia as including all males<BR>
> from ages 18 to 45, and all female officers of the National<BR>
> Guard.<BR>
><BR>
> The Constitution of the United States gives Congress the power to<BR>
> call out the militia.<BR>
><BR>
> If the draft-as-slavery issue were to be argued before the<BR>
> Supreme Court, the government, if their lawyers are even<BR>
> minimally competent, would argue that this is nothing more than a<BR>
> partial call-out of the militia.<BR>
<BR>
And the opposition lawyers can argue that the definition in the US Code<BR>
is contrary to the 13th(?) Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
> I'd bet that the Supreme Court - regardless of which political<BR>
> extreme it might sit on - will probably find for the government<BR>
> on this one.<BR>
<BR>
Quite likely. But that doesn't mean that they are *right* in so ruling.<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:51:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 21:17, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Basically, it consisted of rolling a single twenty-sided dice against a<BR>
>> "to hit" number based on skill level, generating an "effect number" which<BR>
>> was the difference between what you rolled and what you had to roll to<BR>
>> succeed. For H2H weapons multiply the effect number by the weapon damage<BR>
>> multiplier for the weapon, determine location, subtract armour and apply<BR>
>> damage. Two die rolls, which you could  roll at the same time if you<BR>
>> wanted, and three simple calculations.<BR>
><BR>
> IIRC there were three rolls, as the effect number for damage was gained <BR>
> by rolling a die (or dice) based on your Strength. It's still a lot <BR>
> simpler than GURPS' system, even when you leave all the optional bits <BR>
> of GURPS.<BR>
<BR>
You want *simple*? Try Tunnels & Trolls. <BR>
<BR>
Each weapon has a damage rating expressed as some number of dice with a<BR>
+/- modifier (ie 3d-8 :-). Each side rolls the dice for *all* the<BR>
attacks occurring in that round, adds the dice and the modifiers to get<BR>
a *single* number. The side with the lower total takes the *difference*<BR>
as damage.<BR>
<BR>
Armor has point totals. A 3 point shield will stop 3-points of damage,<BR>
after which it is useless. <BR>
<BR>
And I do believe they had some other games that used the same system<BR>
with firearms and the like.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:15:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: OT jury nullification<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 11:48, The Roc wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> How does jury selection work over there?  In Oz, the only info the<BR>
> barristers/lawyers/etc. have is your name (which may possess ethnic hints<BR>
> towards predispossed ideals), your address (which may possess predispossed<BR>
> ideals based upon wealth and standard of living), age (again, predispossed<BR>
> ideals based upon dated beliefs/notions), occupation (again, standard of<BR>
> living, battler status, etc.), and marrital status (personal ideals in<BR>
> family related matters), but they do not include information on<BR>
> educational levels, whether you have children, or even a pet dog.  These<BR>
> are the only things available in writing that a prospective juror can be<BR>
> challanged (defense) or stood by (prosection) with... other than that,<BR>
> they can see how you are dressed, how you wear your hair, and how you<BR>
> carry yourself.<BR>
<BR>
Much the same, but they can ask you if you know anyone involved in the <BR>
case, and you answer verbally. I think there are a few other things <BR>
that can be asked on the spot, and the lawyers guage you on how you <BR>
speak, etc. Besides occupation gives a fairly good idea quite often.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:15:14 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 11:05, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I wouldn't do a straight Roman game, but instead I would pinch bits of<BR>
> lots of early Italian societies:  Etruscans, Samnites and so on, as well<BR>
> as the bits of early Rome and classical Greece that I want.  This allows<BR>
> filing off the serial numbers, so no players can be more clever than me.<BR>
> (Etruscan religion seems kind of interesting.)<BR>
<BR>
Subsitute Hellenistic Greek for Classical and that's southern to <BR>
central Italy before Rome's rise to pre-eminence, pretty much. A great <BR>
time for adventuring throughout the Classical World. The players could <BR>
go anywhere from Erie to India, and most of the area is fairly vague <BR>
historically speaking, which as you said stops players being smarter <BR>
than the GM.<BR>
 <BR>
> My other problem is that I don't live in the Northern hemisphere.  My<BR>
> experience with "European" climates and landscapes isn't particularly<BR>
> broad, so I'm left with sticking cultures into geographical settings where<BR>
> they don't really belong.<BR>
<BR>
I'm told by someone who lived there for about six years that Crete's <BR>
climate is not too different from that of parts of the North Island of <BR>
New Zealand, which in turn isn't too different from that of Tasmania <BR>
(according to a Tasmanian I know). So that's a start.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:48:40 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>What I do have an objection to is "illogical" magic.  I don't<BR>
>like a magic "system" where spells that are superficially similar<BR>
>have no actual relationship to each other - i.e., where magic<BR>
>can't be treated as at least an _empirical_ science, where if I<BR>
>learn, say, stone-to-flesh, the knowledge and experience involved<BR>
>in learning and using that spell is totally irrelevant to the<BR>
>learning of metal-to-flesh.  Give me _organized_ magic in a game,<BR>
>I'm content.<BR>
<BR>
Wow. That's a complete 180 from where I happen to be. One of the things that<BR>
attracts me about the fantasy is its strong roots in mythology and folklore.<BR>
I prefer a universe in which Jenny Greenteeth lurks beneath the still waters<BR>
of the local pond solely to pull naughty children to their doom. Where<BR>
vampires do their dirty work by remote control, chewing off their fingers<BR>
and toes, causing their friends and relatives to die one by one. Where<BR>
kobolds are nasty little buggers and they may kidnap, kill, or merely tangle<BR>
someone's hair for no particular reason. On the other hand, if a jug of beer<BR>
is left for a kobold, he'll clean up the house.<BR>
<BR>
In my opinion, a magic system should reflect this very same lack of logic. A<BR>
vaudaun practitioner may know a spell to charm the man of her dreams, but<BR>
that doesn't mean that she would be anymore likely to discover a spell to<BR>
make her enemies into her friends. The logic behind the two might be vastly<BR>
different. Mythology and folklore are rife with spells which make little or<BR>
no logical sense. That's the flavor I like personally.<BR>
<BR>
>Magic in (A)D&D fails that test.  That is the second biggest<BR>
>turnoff in that system for me.  (The first is restricted to rants<BR>
>on rgf.misc, so don't ask.  Suffice it to say that even the worst<BR>
>versions of Traveller don't suffer from it.)<BR>
<BR>
As far as I can tell, AD&D's magic system comes in somewhere between my<BR>
position and your position. While I will admit certain problems with the<BR>
game, I think that its strengths outweigh its weaknesses. Its strengths are<BR>
partially deliberate and are partially a result of the game being the one<BR>
that the most people are familiar with. The deliberate strengths are things<BR>
like good character balance. The strength which popularity brings is a sort<BR>
of metagame strength which adds greatly to the play value but is harder to<BR>
describe an pin down.<BR>
<BR>
There is no need to make a skill check to identify a ghoul and understand<BR>
its powers, for example, because most players are familiar with the beasts.<BR>
The "ins and outs" of certain magic items are well known. In my opinion this<BR>
type of familiarity simulates something which is difficult to simulate: the<BR>
fact that adventurers would not live in a glass bottle, they would hear<BR>
legends, myths and poems about other adventurers and would gain an imperfect<BR>
body of knowledge about the monsters they might face.<BR>
<BR>
I like to keep things like magic item and monster descriptions out of the<BR>
hands of players during the game. This adds to the "imperfect memory" idea,<BR>
which to me is particularly satisfying. As with all things, your mileage may<BR>
vary.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:01:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Blow it full of holes first ;)<BR>
<BR>
IMHO - Assulting a ship that is prepaired is near sucicide. You all kinds of<BR>
nasty nasty traps - think spring loaded razor wire - say by by to vacc<BR>
suits. If you put enough holes in it, you do not need to worry about several<BR>
of the issues - 1) Grav Pong is hard to do w/o a Power Plant. 2) Atmosphere<BR>
changes are hard to do when every compartment is holed. 3) Enough holes, and<BR>
your crew will sprout some too.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry - the Vilani in me coming out.<BR>
<BR>
Errg - did I say that? Drat - there goes the secret invasion! ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 3:06 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 7/4/00 11:55 AM, Chris Seamans at semo@pil.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Todd wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Good thoughts.  In zero-G its only 12 kg of mass, so just carry the<BR>
bloody<BR>
>> thing.  Yeah grenade area problem.  But recall that the body bunker is an<BR>
>> alternative to having NO cover when negotiating starship hallways.  Think<BR>
> in<BR>
>> that context.  The body bunker is a mobile piece of cover to protect<BR>
> against<BR>
>> direct fire weapons while you team closes with the enemy.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I suppose in the event of a grenade being thrown, you could fire the<BR>
>> thunderstrip on the front of the bunker (tennis anyone?).<BR>
>><BR>
>> Concept:  A light, portable and generally inexpensive method of providing<BR>
>> portable cover while engaging in shipboard combat actions.  It's just<BR>
part<BR>
>> of the tool set, and not a be-all solution.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, you asked for some feedback on some limitations. The body bunker<BR>
just<BR>
> screamed "Grenade" to me, and I figured that might be an issue you hadn't<BR>
> considered. On the other hand, a series of mines or charges placed in the<BR>
> halls of the ship (capable of detonation by way of electronic<BR>
surveillance)<BR>
> might put an end to the shield as well. The mines or charges could be<BR>
easily<BR>
> disguised to merely look like part of the scenery. When the bunker itself<BR>
> passes by: "Boom".<BR>
><BR>
> All I'm trying to do is get the limitations out on the table. I understand<BR>
> the concept that you're running out here.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2719<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2720</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2720<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: Roc: jury nullification (longish)<BR>
RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Fifth Frontier War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
Re: Burrito Files<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
RE: Burrito Files<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:09:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
Sorry - all of mine have involved some serious ass kicking - on bolth sides<BR>
of the fence, and in all manners (ground, air, space, underwater,<BR>
undersomegreenwaterlikecrud)<BR>
<BR>
Hehehe<BR>
<BR>
I had an Aslan Female charactor bite it when the pilot and co-pilot of the<BR>
gig she was on ejected low and fast in an atmosphere (they were PC's, and<BR>
honestly - they did not have a choice - the rampart that had just smoked<BR>
their engines in the classic canyon chase sceen saw to that. The PC was<BR>
played by my wife, and she still complains about that one)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Luther<BR>
Martin<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 6:52 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>By the way, on the spin-offs of this topic--am I the only one who hasn't<BR>
>run a campaign that was firearms heavy?<BR>
<BR>
I never have. All of the games which I have run have been fairly peaceful.<BR>
More political and economic maneuvering, involving large interstellar<BR>
governments or megacorporations.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:22:37 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>You'd like the actual *historical* magic systems in the West then. The<BR>
>demons (and angels) had hierarchies, and each "specialized" in certain<BR>
>areas. So if you needed something done that related to that area, you<BR>
>summoned a Power that handled that area.<BR>
<BR>
If you get a chance, check out SPI's (long out of print) game _Demons_. <BR>
You play rival magicians in ancient Armenia, and your only powers are<BR>
a mystic shield and the ability to summon Demons.  Each Demon has<BR>
a useful ability, such as helping you find treasure or ward off enemies.<BR>
Sitri is entertaining...if a bunch of witch-hunting soldiers accost you in<BR>
a town or city, you can escape by distracting them with Sitri's power to<BR>
Make Women Show Themselves Naked.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I was a young teenager when I got the game.  Certain images are<BR>
bound to stick with you at that age. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 20:45:14 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>You want *simple*? Try Tunnels & Trolls.<BR>
<BR>
A truly lame game. Perhaps the lamest. I played in one T&T adventure many<BR>
years ago. I had a big fighter carrying a big axe aboard a ship of some<BR>
sort. We met some sort of pirates. Maybe goblins. I swing my axe.<BR>
<BR>
"You get three of them," says the GM.<BR>
<BR>
"Three?!" I say, somewhat incredulously.<BR>
<BR>
"That's on your swing. You get three more on your backswing."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 20:51:45 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
Although I never really played AD&D, by virtue of really playing the<BR>
original D&D variety, I have to say that this game is one of the causes for<BR>
me having many hours of fun. Either playing in the City State of the<BR>
Invincible Overlord or in a world largely based upon the Arduin universe.<BR>
Those were the days.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I did spend most of 1981-82 running a group through the<BR>
TSR G1-G3, D1-D3, Q1 series of modules. That totally kicked a**.<BR>
<BR>
I supose that I will never really understand why people hate AD&D so much.<BR>
It's just a game, remember.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:59:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
I agree - I look at it like my old red wagon (or CT). It was really really<BR>
fun in it's day - but I have grown up, and need bigger and badder things<BR>
now..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Luther<BR>
Martin<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 8:52 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Although I never really played AD&D, by virtue of really playing the<BR>
original D&D variety, I have to say that this game is one of the causes for<BR>
me having many hours of fun. Either playing in the City State of the<BR>
Invincible Overlord or in a world largely based upon the Arduin universe.<BR>
Those were the days.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I did spend most of 1981-82 running a group through the<BR>
TSR G1-G3, D1-D3, Q1 series of modules. That totally kicked a**.<BR>
<BR>
I supose that I will never really understand why people hate AD&D so much.<BR>
It's just a game, remember.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:07:01 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: jury nullification (longish)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:15:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: OT jury nullification<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 5 Jul 00, at 11:48, The Roc wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > How does jury selection work over there?  In Oz, the only info the<BR>
> > barristers/lawyers/etc. have is your name (which may possess ethnic<BR>
hints<BR>
> > towards predispossed ideals), your address (which may possess<BR>
predispossed<BR>
> > ideals based upon wealth and standard of living), age (again,<BR>
predispossed<BR>
> > ideals based upon dated beliefs/notions), occupation (again, standard of<BR>
> > living, battler status, etc.), and marrital status (personal ideals in<BR>
> > family related matters), but they do not include information on<BR>
> > educational levels, whether you have children, or even a pet dog.  These<BR>
> > are the only things available in writing that a prospective juror can be<BR>
> > challanged (defense) or stood by (prosection) with... other than that,<BR>
> > they can see how you are dressed, how you wear your hair, and how you<BR>
> > carry yourself.<BR>
><BR>
> Much the same, but they can ask you if you know anyone involved in the<BR>
> case, and you answer verbally. I think there are a few other things<BR>
> that can be asked on the spot, and the lawyers guage you on how you<BR>
> speak, etc. Besides occupation gives a fairly good idea quite often.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, thanks... Yes, here, only the judge himself can ask you anything before<BR>
the trial starts (Do you know the defendant or any witnesses, etc... and in<BR>
one of the ones recently that I wasn't chosen for, he asked a woman if<BR>
knowing him [she knew the judge personally] would affect her ability to give<BR>
a self determined choice on the case), other than that, no-one hears you<BR>
speak until you are sworn in or take an affirmation - when it is to late to<BR>
stop you from serving upon the jury.<BR>
<BR>
But it does make you wonder... here I am listed as "Home Duties" on the<BR>
electoral roll (where you are randomly chosen for jury duty - this is also<BR>
where the information that is supplied to the court about you comes from), I<BR>
stand at six-foot even, and dress in a business suit (and tie) when<BR>
attending anything remotely formal, I wear motor boots with my suit, have a<BR>
full, well-groomed beard, and wear my long hair back in a pony.  Over the<BR>
latest two weeks of jury service, I underwent 4x empanelling processes and<BR>
for three of those, I was challenged (by the defence) and my<BR>
name/jury-number simply wasn't called before the jury was filled on the<BR>
other.  My wondering is what the defence must have thought of me to<BR>
challenge me like that, being they only had my image and what personal info<BR>
listed upon the electoral roll?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Of the many cultures within the Imperium, I assume the Aussie way<BR>
of law and courts, and juries apply somewhere, as well as exotic ones<BR>
totally alien to my way of thinking, so I am really interested in such<BR>
things both in a game sense, and in real life.  As an aid to model other<BR>
forms, I'd like to hear how the U.S. works their jury selection (how jurors<BR>
are chosen to start, and then how they are empanelled), as well as how the<BR>
English (I'm assuming something similar to Oz?), and any other nationalities<BR>
do theirs (I believe we have Germans and Dutch on the list, and more...).<BR>
Anyone else care to add something to this?<BR>
<BR>
To clarify how it's done in Australia;<BR>
You have to be a registered voter on the Electoral Roll (ER).<BR>
The Sheriffs Department draws a regional intake of jurors (in two panels<BR>
minimum; Panel A and Panel B) on a monthly basis from the ER and assigned a<BR>
Jury Number.<BR>
You have one chance before attending, to request dismissal from Jury Duty in<BR>
writing.  If granted, you are permanently dismissed for this intake only.<BR>
Upon attending, you are reimbursed Bus Fare (or the equivalent of the bus<BR>
fare for taxi fare or fuel cost of your personal vehicle - ie: If bus fare<BR>
is $2 and taxi fare is $5, you only get $2 if you travel by taxi) and you<BR>
get paid a minimum fee if not empanelled on an actual jury.<BR>
For empanelling, everyone lines up in the court and remains silent.  The<BR>
charges are then read (the accused is sitting in the box already), naming<BR>
names and addresses.  The judge then asks for a plea.  If the plea is<BR>
guilty, the prospective jurors are no longer needed and dismissed (but may<BR>
have to attend empanelling in another court room).  If not guilty, the<BR>
defence identifies themselves, as does the prosecutor who then reads a list<BR>
of witnesses - again, naming names and addresses and/or occupations.  Then<BR>
the jurors are selected.<BR>
Of a panel consisting of 3-dozen or so persons (sometimes less, sometimes<BR>
more), depending upon the judge himself, your information cards are drawn<BR>
from a barrel one at a time and you are called either by your full name, or<BR>
your jury number.<BR>
When your name/number is called, you simply walk from the back of the court<BR>
room towards the bailiff and upon reaching him, you are sworn in (or take an<BR>
affirmation by prior arrangement), and you take your seat in order (if you<BR>
are sworn in as juror #1, you take the #1 seat in the back top row).<BR>
Anytime between having your name called and the bailiff swearing you in, you<BR>
may be challenged (by the defence) or stood by (by the prosecutor), in which<BR>
case, you return to your starting point and wait until the jury is fully<BR>
empanelled.  If they go through the panel without getting a full jury, they<BR>
restart with the left over cards, going through the process again until they<BR>
have 12x men and/or women chosen (this happened once on a jury I was<BR>
empanelled upon many years ago, so I don't know how often it happens).<BR>
Once the jury is empanelled, the judge then asks if anyone on the jury knows<BR>
the defendant or ANY of the witnesses.  If yes, you are usually dropped<BR>
after you and the judge discuss it there and then in the court, however, if<BR>
it is, say, your family doctor giving expert, but neutral testimony<BR>
(regardless if it is for the defence or prosecution), you may be deemed<BR>
suitable to remain on the jury (this also happened to me, as my family GP is<BR>
also the regions Medical Examiner and had to give expert advice on blood and<BR>
hair found on the accused, and I was asked if my relationship with the<BR>
doctor would sway me unfairly... I said "No" and was allowed to remain on<BR>
the jury).  If you are dropped from the panel, drawing remaining jury cards<BR>
recommences until you are replaced.  being empanelled upon a sitting jury,<BR>
you are paid a higher minimum fee for the first day, which increases for the<BR>
2nd day, and again for the 3rd and subsequent days of the trial.<BR>
Once empanelled, you are separated from everyone else until the trial begins<BR>
(the bailiff takes you to the jury room and explains what goes on, what you<BR>
are expected to do and what you are not allowed to do).<BR>
They take you to lunch at about 1 PM (In my town, they used to take you to a<BR>
pub with a room set aside just for juries, but it closed for renovations and<BR>
had all kinds of Union problems and remained closed for a couple of years<BR>
because of it, so now they actually walk you down to a little Cafe with an<BR>
upstairs room set aside for juries!).<BR>
Anytime after 4:30 PM, the session can end for the day and you are sent<BR>
home, bound by law to return the following working day to resume your<BR>
duties, unless notified otherwise.<BR>
At the end of the trial, the jury deliberates it's findings.  This can take,<BR>
in theory, "as long as it takes" with jurors being placed in accommodation<BR>
overnight if required, to continue deliberation the following day.  However,<BR>
in practice, unless it is a huge, complicated, controversial, public case,<BR>
the courts like to see results quickly and the jury may be dismissed and a<BR>
retrial scheduled for a later date if you take more than 24 hours to come to<BR>
a verdict.  There is also a good chance that the jury will be dismissed if<BR>
it means they will be accommodated by the court for a weekend!  Again, I was<BR>
on such a jury, a case of armed robbery; we had deliberated for some 2-hours<BR>
Friday evening, and when they judge asked if we would be able to come to<BR>
agreement within 1/2-hour and was informed that we probably would not, he<BR>
felt it more expedient to dismiss the jury and reschedule the trial for a<BR>
later date than have the courts pay accommodation over the entire weekend...<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the bandwidth, but I am hoping this information may be of use to<BR>
another Traveller GM, as I have been keeping what little snippets I can use<BR>
from this thread for that same reason... to use later :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:44:29 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry - all of mine have involved some serious ass kicking - on bolth sides<BR>
>of the fence, and in all manners (ground, air, space, underwater,<BR>
>undersomegreenwaterlikecrud)<BR>
><BR>
>Hehehe<BR>
><BR>
>I had an Aslan Female charactor bite it when the pilot and co-pilot of the<BR>
>gig she was on ejected low and fast in an atmosphere (they were PC's, and<BR>
>honestly - they did not have a choice - the rampart that had just smoked<BR>
>their engines in the classic canyon chase sceen saw to that. The PC was<BR>
>played by my wife, and she still complains about that one)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Allthough our GM doesn't like to kill off  PC's as a rule. It has <BR>
been known to happen. What usually occurs is that the PC survives but <BR>
is very severely wounded.<BR>
<BR>
There was a bit of a contest where some of the players would brag <BR>
about how many limbs they have lost and regrown.<BR>
<BR>
I think the record is 8 at this time. This usually puts the character <BR>
out of play for awhile though. This also has the secondary effect of <BR>
making medical drugs like Regen less effective. Causing the <BR>
character to have to use more powerful medical drugs These also cost <BR>
more. As an example, where ReGen 1 may cost 100cr/dose...ReGen 1B <BR>
will cost approx 1000cr/dose. (prices are estimated for the purpose <BR>
of showing relative costs).<BR>
<BR>
I myself prefer playing in the big gun games more than the political <BR>
ones. I personally don't have the knack of out politicking our GM. <BR>
He's much more well read than I am. And I enjoy having the character <BR>
that the other players turn to when they suddenly realize "Uhmmmm... <BR>
Nicolai?...Could you take care of that for us?"<BR>
Nicolai is one of my characters who was frequently referred to as <BR>
"The Big Gun" A nickname I did little to dissuade the others from <BR>
using.<BR>
<BR>
"Okay... we have a medic, A pilot, our computer expert... Now all we <BR>
need is a really big gun....Hey?...What's Nicolai been up to lately?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill "My pack gets lighter as we go" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 22:57:34 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War in Aide de Camp 2<BR>
<BR>
The Aide de Camp conversion of Fifth Frontier War is almost done. All of the<BR>
unit counters are done and organized in "force pools." The only things left<BR>
to do are to add the casualty markers (trivial), to add the player's fleet<BR>
composition charts, and to figure out a better way of showing the presence<BR>
of oceans on the main map. Using the original FFW map, you have to look at<BR>
the world boxes on the edge of the map to find this out, and it can be a<BR>
real nuisance.<BR>
<BR>
This is only a few hours of work, so anyone coming to the July 29 meeting of<BR>
the Bay Area Traveller gaming group will definately get a chance to see the<BR>
completed game (in addition to the free LEGO spaceship, which I mentioned in<BR>
a previous post).<BR>
<BR>
The conversion for Mayday is also done, so if anyone has ADC2 and Mayday and<BR>
wants to use the gameset, let me know. You can also easily adapt this<BR>
gameset to Brilliant Lances, as well as Mayday 4.1.<BR>
<BR>
Unless there is interest from other Traveller fanatics, oops, I mean "fans",<BR>
I am not planning on converting any more Traveller games to ADC2 for a<BR>
while. Next on my to-do list are converting the old TSR version of Battle of<BR>
the Five Armies and the old SPI version of War of the Ring.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:12:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
<BR>
EMP (Electromagnetic pulse) effects can be observed following the<BR>
detonation of nuclear weapons. High energy, high frequency microwaves<BR>
are created during atmospheric ionisation.<BR>
<BR>
The currents they can induce in electrical equipment can lead to the<BR>
malfunction or burnout of these devices.<BR>
<BR>
Replicating this without nuclear ordnance for tactical applications can<BR>
be achieved by :-<BR>
i. Rapid capacitor discharge (HPGs/accumulator banks linked to a<BR>
suitable antenna) ;<BR>
<BR>
Maser devices, such as are used in spacecraft communications, could be<BR>
adapted to become pulse generators.<BR>
<BR>
ii. Single shot devices using explosive power generation - flux<BR>
compressors.<BR>
    A flux compressor is an explosive filled metal cylinder surrounded<BR>
by a metal coil. At one end of the cylinder is a detonator, at the other<BR>
an antenna. A small current is passed through the coil to create a<BR>
magnetic field. The power for this can be provided by a battery.<BR>
    When the explosive is detonated, the cylinder contacts the coil,<BR>
focussing the magnetic field into the area ahead of it. The amplified<BR>
current is radiated by the antenna just prior to the destruction of the<BR>
device.<BR>
<BR>
In 100 microseconds, it's possible to create microwaves with power in<BR>
the gigawatt range.<BR>
<BR>
At TTL 7, flux compressor systems can be built as small as 2L. The<BR>
limiting factors are the size of antenna required as well as the energy<BR>
density of explosives, and to a lesser extent batteries.<BR>
<BR>
From TTL 9, advances in explosive technology enable smaller devices to<BR>
be constructed, leading to the advent of EMP grenades by TTL 10. These<BR>
are very short-ranged devices, with areas of effect of a few tens of<BR>
metres.<BR>
<BR>
* Rules<BR>
* Construction<BR>
Flux compressor warheads are built in similar fashion to conventional<BR>
warheads in FF&S2.<BR>
Minimum size is as follows :-<BR>
TTL        Diameter/calibre, cm      Mass,kg<BR>
8           10                       2                       <BR>
9           5                        0.5<BR>
10+         3                        0.1<BR>
<BR>
All warheads have a density of 2g/cc.<BR>
<BR>
* Damage effects are divided into explosive and EMP.<BR>
<BR>
Explosive damage is figured normally, but divided by 2 :-<BR>
Damage (dice) = 0.5 X (diameter in cm)^2 X ammo TL mod :-<BR>
TL 8 0.25, TL 9 0.29, TL 10+ 0.36.<BR>
<BR>
Burst radius, metres = 5 X sqrt(diameter in cm)<BR>
<BR>
EMP burst radius, metres = (diameter in cm)^2<BR>
<BR>
Peak warhead power = 10 X (diameter in cm)^2 MW <BR>
* Burst radii         Effect<BR>
1                   Equipment inoperative. Fused circuitry<BR>
2                   Difficulty level of tasks with use + 2 levels.<BR>
                    Chance of malfunction is Routine<BR>
4                   Difficulty level of tasks with use + 1 level<BR>
                    Chance of malfunction is Difficult<BR>
<BR>
Clear lines of sight are assumed when calculating burst radii.<BR>
Faraday caged and fibre optic equipment are immune to all forms of EMP.<BR>
Equipment served with power supplies with surge protection are immune at<BR>
the 4 burst radii distance, unless specified to be unusually delicate or<BR>
sensitive.<BR>
<BR>
Other related topics :-<BR>
nuclear weapons and theatre level EMP generation<BR>
Masers as directed EMP weapons<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(needs more sleep!)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 23:27:45 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
on 6/17/00 7:29 AM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Boy, that would be great.  I know Colin Michael (the<BR>
> Downport.com guru) always loved the idea behind the Burrito<BR>
> Files.<BR>
> <BR>
> Once upon a time I wrote a Perl script that generated<BR>
> rough NPC visual characteristics and basic stats, but<BR>
> it really didn't do what I wanted (I wanted NPCs who<BR>
> were useful and memorable - they ended up looking<BR>
> pretty cardboard).<BR>
> <BR>
> Alas, I'm in the Great And Sovereign State of Texas,<BR>
> sneezing all the way (pollen and molds are bad here).<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Rob, I've added a section on my website (http://www.travellercentral.com)<BR>
where I will be posting the several inches (at one or more NPCs to the page)<BR>
of old NPCs.  We'll do some composite photos using faces as well.  Stay<BR>
tuned.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 23:36:23 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:48 AM 7/4/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Only airborne-qualified Intelligence personnel (paratroopers are<BR>
> >bullet-resistant).<BR>
><BR>
> MOS 11-B  Warsaw Pact Ammunition and Shrapnel Collection Specialist<BR>
><BR>
> Rangers aren't bulletproof.. they just catch them in their teeth and spit<BR>
> the rounds back.<BR>
><BR>
> What's the only difference between US Army Special Forces and the Girl<BR>
> Scouts?  You can get cookies from the Girl Scouts.<BR>
<BR>
No... THe girl scouts have adult supervision.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 23:42:20 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
on 7/3/00 6:09 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 3 Jul 00, at 11:30, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> This brings up another.  What is the typical length of a game session for<BR>
>> most TMLers?  I'm' curious, as our weekly meets tend to run about 5 hours.<BR>
>> Is this the norm?<BR>
> <BR>
> Used to be about 6-8 hours, but is currently 0, as I haven't played in<BR>
> or run a Traveller game for over a year. SF rpgs just don't seem to be<BR>
> as popular as fantasy with my people, and with D&D3 coming out next<BR>
> month I'm not anticipating any changes in this.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
Rupert, when the NZ gov follows Oz's lead and you decide to bail, come here<BR>
to Oregon.  We can shoot and own everything (silencers, MGs, etc) and my<BR>
players hate D&D.  We never, ever play fantasy (unless you include one past<BR>
campaign of 'Vampire Hunter')  Just traveller and some 20th century Merc<BR>
stuff.  We've had a weekly trav game running continuously for about 10 years<BR>
(taking time off for holidays and such)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn, Doug et al.  This goes for you all as well.  On the Portland OR area?<BR>
We game every Saturday night.  Modified CT.  If you're interested in<BR>
dropping in, just shoot me an email.  You can always read the game notes to<BR>
find out the current state of the game.  We publish these weekly on our web<BR>
site (http://www.travellercentral.com)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:23:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 8:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > The problem is not the lawyers ability to reject certain jurors (this is<BR>
> > limited BTW).  The real problem, IMHO is citizens who will do<BR>
> > anything to keep from serving on a jury.  I've had co workers brag about<BR>
their<BR>
> > techniques of avoiding service on a jury.  Everyone want the<BR>
> > benefits.  No one wants the responsibility.<BR>
><BR>
> That really galls me, too.<BR>
<BR>
In defense of such people, as I may be forced to be one one day, the reason<BR>
many people have to avoid jury duty is because rather than scheduling it<BR>
ahead of time so that people can arrange their lives to be able to attend,<BR>
in most cases you're only told two or three days before you're supposed to<BR>
be there.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, I know one person who didn't even find out he'd been called up until<BR>
four days after he was supposed to be there, because he was out of the<BR>
country on a two week contract at the time.<BR>
<BR>
For profesionals who usually are booked many weeks in advance, they can't<BR>
just drop everything and rush off to court, especially when they are from<BR>
small companies, because the company or their clients may suffer losses<BR>
often much greater than the losses suffered by the victims of the crime in<BR>
the first place! (assuming it's not a murder trial)<BR>
<BR>
Imagine an A&E surgeon having to sit in a jury while accident victims die<BR>
due to there not being any other A&E surgeons available for the worst case<BR>
scenario (though I suspect this one would never happen).<BR>
<BR>
If jury selections were made and advised, say,  three months in advance, it<BR>
would be much more workable, people (and there employers) could plan for it.<BR>
<BR>
> Most of my friends and I would be quite<BR>
> happy to do so, but the only ones I know of who were called up were<BR>
> dismissed, probably because of their University degrees.<BR>
<BR>
That's one of the problems I have with jury's.<BR>
<BR>
How can people who don't have relevant degree's, other training, or<BR>
experience make reasonable decisions on a case that is usually completely<BR>
outside their realm of experience or ability ?<BR>
<BR>
I've heard a so-called expert witness' testimony once, testifying on a<BR>
technical issue in which I happen to have knowledge, who was basically<BR>
"lying without actually telling an untruth" all through his testimony<BR>
(ommission, vague statements, invalid assumptions, etc. )<BR>
There was nothing I, as a mere observer, could do about it (except volunteer<BR>
to be a witness for the defence, but that wasn't posible because the defense<BR>
was for some reason no longer able to call new witnesss). Luckily, other<BR>
apsects of the case meant this witness' testimony was not crucial.<BR>
<BR>
> > My issue with a judge only trial is that you are relying on one person<BR>
> > who's judgement may not be any better than twelve jury members.  I can<BR>
> > think of one federal judge in particular of whom it was said<BR>
> > that you his ruling were dependant on whether or not he had a good<BR>
breakfast.<BR>
><BR>
> In the town where I used to live one judge was heard to say "the next<BR>
> drunk driver I get goes inside", and the next drunk driver did, for a<BR>
> first offense that had hurt no-one but himself. While I understand the<BR>
> judge's actions (his daughter had died after a drunk driver hit her the<BR>
> week before), it seems a fairly arbitary way of running a justice<BR>
> system.<BR>
<BR>
Thing is, law governing the actions of judges should be written in such a<BR>
way that any such ststement should have forced the judge to declare a<BR>
mistrial, or should constitute undeniable cause for an appeal.<BR>
<BR>
Judges _should_ be honourable people, who will remove themselves from cases<BR>
where they cannot be impartial. And there should be systems in place to<BR>
remove judges who do not remove themselves. Unfortunately the whole concept<BR>
of honour has gone out of style.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, & BTW, almost no country in the world currently has a working _justice_<BR>
system.<BR>
<BR>
A justice system would attempt to right the wrong, assist the victims.<BR>
What most places have are _penal_ systems, designed merely to punish the<BR>
offender.<BR>
<BR>
There are a few moves towards justice systems, such as those in New Zealand<BR>
where sometimes thieves can be forced to pay replacement costs to their<BR>
victims, but this is not generally the case.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:40:47 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Burrito Files<BR>
<BR>
> on 6/17/00 7:29 AM, Rob Eaglestone at downport@home.com wrote:<BR>
> > Once upon a time I wrote a Perl script that generated<BR>
> > rough NPC visual characteristics and basic stats, but<BR>
> > it really didn't do what I wanted (I wanted NPCs who<BR>
> > were useful and memorable - they ended up looking<BR>
> > pretty cardboard).<BR>
<BR>
Didn't see the original post, but you might have liked a "Cross-game system"<BR>
NPC generator I wrote years ago that generated a text description of random<BR>
length containing randm descriptive nouns and adjectives, taken from a set<BR>
of related list. It would generate things like :<BR>
<BR>
"A short, balding accountant wearing a suit, who is somewhat overweight"<BR>
<BR>
I wish I still had the source, it was back when I was doing post-grad on<BR>
rule-based learning systems. Perhaps I'll try and write a Java version one<BR>
day, if I get all the other things I'm working on finished.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:29:25 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 4 Jul 00, at 10:37, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
> > to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
> > and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a<BR>
> > genuine threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to<BR>
> > conscript them? This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit<BR>
> > of conscription is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
> <BR>
> That is the reason I'm not on favour of conscription - if your citizens<BR>
> won't voluteer to protect your country maybe you shouldn't be the one<BR>
> in charge. Besides, if they can't be bothered defending their homes and<BR>
> way of life they don't deserve to keep them. Evolution in Action.<BR>
<BR>
In this part of the world (Finland and Estonia) conscription is the only<BR>
possibility to defend the country. We are facing a very unstable former<BR>
super-power which regularly informs Estonia and more rarely Finland that<BR>
our independence is only temporary and 1916 borders will be returned in<BR>
time. I served my time in the Finnish navy and didn't have any problems<BR>
with it.<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure that if the invasion occured even without draft there would be<BR>
a lot of people willing to sign up for the service (although the turnout<BR>
would be low in the beginning as people would hesitate some time [in<BR>
Estonia we have examples from 1918 and 1942-43 of how it works in<BR>
practice]), but it would be far too late to start training them even if<BR>
they came the first day. So to have a believable defence we need a whole<BR>
bunch of people already trained as reserves that could be called up<BR>
immediately. <BR>
<BR>
Currently Finland can field up to half a million men, which is far more<BR>
than what Russia could field against us right now (as I understand they<BR>
have some 200 000 troops ready of which half are in Chechnya). Estonia<BR>
can field a meager 20 000 or something (but every year the figure goes<BR>
up) which is not even close to what is needed.<BR>
<BR>
I guess the same applies in Traveller for smaller states on some<BR>
balkanised worlds, although I really don't see the point of<BR>
Imperium-wide conscription for the following reasons:<BR>
<BR>
1. High-tech space wars.<BR>
Probably most wars are fought primarily in space, which needs highly<BR>
trained spacers for which I guess volunteers are in ample supply and the<BR>
numbers needed can never be too high, much like the air forces and<BR>
navies of our world. <BR>
<BR>
2. No big threatening enemies with huge numerical advantage.<BR>
The time needed for a big enough the enemy to appear and launch an<BR>
onslaught against the Imperium allows plenty of time for Imperium to<BR>
start training troops.<BR>
<BR>
3. It would be damned expensive to call even 1 percent of Imperium's<BR>
populace to service, if there is no peticular reason. <BR>
<BR>
So IMHO Imperium doesn't need a draft, unless it plans to invade<BR>
something big (so in MT it would seem to be appropriate). <BR>
<BR>
As a game mechanic I have no problem with the draft in Traveller, but at<BR>
least IMTU I don't take it literally.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2720<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2721<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Magic<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
Campaign Cartographer<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
Auth Thau<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
Re : Jury Duty<BR>
RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: Re : Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 02:56:32 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Magic<BR>
<BR>
"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >What I do have an objection to is "illogical" magic.  I don't<BR>
> >like a magic "system" where spells that are superficially similar<BR>
> >have no actual relationship to each other - i.e., where magic can't<BR>
> >be treated as at least an _empirical_ science, where if I learn, say,<BR>
> >stone-to-flesh, the knowledge and experience involved in learning and<BR>
> >using that spell is totally irrelevant to the learning of<BR>
> >metal-to-flesh.  Give me _organized_ magic in a game, I'm content.<BR>
> <BR>
> Wow. That's a complete 180 from where I happen to be. One of the<BR>
> things that attracts me about the fantasy is its strong roots in<BR>
> mythology and folklore. I prefer a universe in which Jenny Greenteeth<BR>
> lurks beneath the still waters of the local pond solely to pull<BR>
> naughty children to their doom. Where vampires do their dirty work by<BR>
> remote control, chewing off their fingers and toes, causing their<BR>
> friends and relatives to die one by one. Where kobolds are nasty<BR>
> little buggers and they may kidnap, kill, or merely tangle someone's<BR>
> hair for no particular reason. On the other hand, if a jug of beer is<BR>
> left for a kobold, he'll clean up the house.<BR>
> <BR>
> In my opinion, a magic system should reflect this very same lack of<BR>
> logic. A vaudaun practitioner may know a spell to charm the man of her<BR>
> dreams, but that doesn't mean that she would be anymore likely to<BR>
> discover a spell to make her enemies into her friends. The logic<BR>
> behind the two might be vastly different. Mythology and folklore are<BR>
> rife with spells which make little or no logical sense. That's the<BR>
> flavor I like personally.<BR>
<BR>
Very  much agreed.  As both an anthropologist and a practising <BR>
ceremonial and Wiccan magician, for me, magic is not a science <BR>
and it is not a protoscience, it is an art, and a practice which is not <BR>
subject to reason.  Magic and myth deal with archetypes, <BR>
obsessions, perception, dream logic and similar non-rational <BR>
quantities.  Read Mircea Eliade's book _Shamanism: Archaic <BR>
Techniques of Ecstasy_, or Richard Kiekheffer's book on 15th <BR>
century magic _Forbidden Rites_ and you will understand a bit <BR>
more about the methods of thought behind magic.    <BR>
<BR>
Then again, my favorite magic system are (not counting Forsaken <BR>
Rites for Conspiracy X & Liber Ka for Nephilim, both of which I <BR>
wrote and use) Unknown Armies and GURPS Voodoo.  Nuts-n-<BR>
bolts, orderly rational magic systems make no sense to me.  They <BR>
just feel like odd tech with the serial numbers filled off.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 03:04:34 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net> wrote: <BR>
<BR>
> At 04:35 PM 07/04/2000, you wrote:<BR>
> <snip><BR>
> Jeff,<BR>
> <BR>
> I believe that you would like the magic rules "Authentic Thaumaturgy"<BR>
> by P. Bonewitz, Steve Jackson Games has published it in the past. The<BR>
> first Edition that I has very concise rules for magic(ie Law of<BR>
> Contagion, Similarity, etc). I have not bought the edition by SJ Games<BR>
> edition, yet. The edition I have has no game system bias at all. But I<BR>
> believe that the one by SJ Games will have bias towards GURPS.<G><BR>
<BR>
While some folks may find this book useful, IMHO Bonewits is a <BR>
poor and somewhat silly occultist and an even worse game <BR>
designer.  That book is full of just about everything that I find silly, <BR>
unworkably, wretched, and ahistorical about the worse gaming <BR>
magic, all in one slender but unreadable volume  He attempts to <BR>
treat magic as some wacky form of technology, mixing physics <BR>
and magic at random and yielding only useless mush.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com <BR>
 Witch, Anthropologist, and RPG writer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:17:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>You want *simple*? Try Tunnels & Trolls.<BR>
><BR>
> A truly lame game. Perhaps the lamest. I played in one T&T adventure many<BR>
> years ago. I had a big fighter carrying a big axe aboard a ship of some<BR>
> sort. We met some sort of pirates. Maybe goblins. I swing my axe.<BR>
><BR>
> "You get three of them," says the GM.<BR>
><BR>
> "Three?!" I say, somewhat incredulously.<BR>
><BR>
> "That's on your swing. You get three more on your backswing."<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like he oversimplified the combat a bit. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:28:35 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 23:42, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert, when the NZ gov follows Oz's lead and you decide to bail, come<BR>
> here to Oregon.  We can shoot and own everything (silencers, MGs, etc) and<BR>
> my players hate D&D.  We never, ever play fantasy (unless you include one<BR>
> past campaign of 'Vampire Hunter')  Just traveller and some 20th century<BR>
> Merc stuff.  We've had a weekly trav game running continuously for about<BR>
> 10 years (taking time off for holidays and such)<BR>
<BR>
Don't tempt me - it's not fair, I say.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:31:08 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
I am trying to organize a pbem campaign online. It is set in the Classic <BR>
Traveller/ GURPS Traveller universe in the year 1120. The campaign focuses on <BR>
the strategic and tactical considerations of a war fought between the <BR>
Darrians and the Sword Worlds over the Entropic Worlds (Querion Subsector of <BR>
the Spinward Marches). I have all versions of Traveller with the exception of <BR>
New Era and will probably use bits and pieces of all of them as appropriate. <BR>
<BR>
I intend to use Classic Traveller as the baseline, then move through <BR>
MegaTraveller and T4 as technical references, finally using GURPS source <BR>
books as inspirational and flavor resources. <BR>
<BR>
Character generation - Classic Traveller (Advanced), MegaTraveller, and T4. <BR>
(I'll discuss the use of GURPS Characters if necessary.) <BR>
Ship construction - High Guard with elements of GURPS Traveller when <BR>
discussing roleplaying issues. <BR>
Naval combat - High Guard, Book 5; T4 Imperial Squadrons<BR>
Ground combat - Mercenary, Book 4; MegaTraveller; T4 Pocket Empires; GURPS <BR>
StarMercs <BR>
World construction - MegaTraveller (Heaven and Earth used); GURPS First In.  <BR>
<BR>
At first I wanted to be exclusive, but interest has been, to be honest - <BR>
nill, so I am openning this to anyone who thinks they may be interested. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:20:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Campaign Cartographer<BR>
<BR>
I was at my FLGS the other day and they had two copies of the City<BR>
Design package for the *MS-DOS* version of Campaign Cartographer. If I<BR>
recall correctly, they were $25 each.<BR>
<BR>
If anybody is interested, drop me a note and we can see if we can work<BR>
something out.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:47:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Todd Langstaff <tlangsta@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
I've been lurking on the TML for a while, but I<BR>
couldn't resist this topic. Its something that has<BR>
been bothering me about Traveller since I first<BR>
encountered it.<BR>
<BR>
I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and<BR>
am planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system.<BR>
Has anyone else done this before?<BR>
<BR>
- -Todd<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:48:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT jury nullification (was RE: risk perception)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
>> On 4 Jul 00, at 8:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> > The problem is not the lawyers ability to reject certain jurors (this is<BR>
>> > limited BTW).  The real problem, IMHO is citizens who will do<BR>
>> > anything to keep from serving on a jury.  I've had co workers brag about<BR>
> their<BR>
>> > techniques of avoiding service on a jury.  Everyone want the<BR>
>> > benefits.  No one wants the responsibility.<BR>
>><BR>
>> That really galls me, too.<BR>
><BR>
> In defense of such people, as I may be forced to be one one day, the reason<BR>
> many people have to avoid jury duty is because rather than scheduling it<BR>
> ahead of time so that people can arrange their lives to be able to attend,<BR>
> in most cases you're only told two or three days before you're supposed to<BR>
> be there.<BR>
><BR>
> Heck, I know one person who didn't even find out he'd been called up until<BR>
> four days after he was supposed to be there, because he was out of the<BR>
> country on a two week contract at the time.<BR>
><BR>
> For profesionals who usually are booked many weeks in advance, they can't<BR>
> just drop everything and rush off to court, especially when they are from<BR>
> small companies, because the company or their clients may suffer losses<BR>
> often much greater than the losses suffered by the victims of the crime in<BR>
> the first place! (assuming it's not a murder trial)<BR>
<BR>
Hell, I've gotten notices three times in the last 25 years. The first<BR>
time I let them now I was a *witness* in a trial.<BR>
<BR>
The second time I was in the middle of something at work, that they<BR>
really *couldn't* spare me for. <BR>
<BR>
The third time, I was on unemployment. And due to the way the rules for<BR>
*that* work, showing up for jury duty would have made me "unavailable<BR>
for work", which would mean no benefits that week. And given that the<BR>
"pay" for Jury duty is something like a dollar a day, it wasn't going<BR>
to come close to filling the gap. <BR>
<BR>
So I had to plead hardship. <BR>
<BR>
This annoys me *greatly*, because I *want* to serve!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:54:28 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Auth Thau<BR>
<BR>
> Ever take a look at "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by Bonewits? I haven't<BR>
>  checked out the new GURPS version, but the older version *was* an<BR>
>  attempt to balance real magical practice against game needs.<BR>
<BR>
Our edition has nothing to do with GURPS - it is merely a revision by <BR>
Bonewits to his original work, and is usable with al game systems.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:08:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
I wrote two stories.<BR>
<BR>
'Remembrance of the Daleks' (1987)<BR>
'Battlefield' (1988)<BR>
<BR>
+ 2 and a half tie in novels.<BR>
Transit<BR>
The Also People<BR>
So Vile A Sin (with Kate Orman)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 9:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:25 AM 7/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I remember being very impressed when working on<BR>
Doctor<BR>
> >Who that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
> >investment considering the cheapness of the prog)<BR>
> >researching the insignia for the RAF Regiment.<BR>
><BR>
> "when working on Doctor Who"?<BR>
><BR>
> *blink*<BR>
><BR>
> Tell me more..<BR>
><BR>
> Doug Berry<BR>
> Past President for Life, the Legion of Rassilon<BR>
> gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:09:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
From: Mark Preston <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
> You worked on Dr. Who - you must be a god. We're not<BR>
worthy!!<BR>
><BR>
At last, the respect I deserve! :-]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:14:38 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
> serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
<BR>
Uh, meson weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Seriously, I can imagine two solutions:<BR>
<BR>
1 - No real military engagements ever include boarding. It is so <BR>
damn hard to get close enough to a ship, match velocities, etc that<BR>
it's something that's just never planned for. Of course, PC's lives<BR>
revolve around doing things that were never planned for, so this <BR>
shouldn't stop them.<BR>
<BR>
2 - You have to make your own entrance. Presumably disabling drive <BR>
systems is a prerequisite to any boarding action, so most <BR>
boarding parties have already shot the hell out of the ship being <BR>
boarded. Get a really, really big charge and blow one hell of a hole<BR>
through the hull into the cargo bay or somesuch. Unless the ship has<BR>
a lot of hull sensors, it'll be difficult to guess where the boarders<BR>
are going to come in.<BR>
<BR>
Again, since boarding is such an inherently bad idea, most people<BR>
probably don't bother with the super-duper internal security systems.<BR>
<BR>
Look at most modern US naval vessels - if you were in a destroyer and<BR>
wanted to board another destroyer, how would you do it? Better yet,<BR>
_could_ you do it?<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:25:34 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> The alternative seems to be to do the same thing, only without the added<BR>
> protection of the shield.  How is this better?<BR>
> <BR>
> Note:  Since I have no experience boarding ships, I am forced to rely on<BR>
> MOUNT and police examples.<BR>
<BR>
So, to reiterate Chris' point, yes, I got the idea, I just thought you<BR>
were looking for any possible problems with the scenario.<BR>
<BR>
It is a heck of a lot better than no shield, sure. Based on contemporary<BR>
police examples, I'm sure it would work just as well. Kind of.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine a SWAT team taking their body shield tactics and trying to <BR>
get into not a house, but instead, a modern US battleship. Now, I've<BR>
never been on a battleship (well, I think I was on that decommissioned<BR>
Canadian frigate at Ontario Place once) but I've seen TV footage, etc,<BR>
making me a complete and utter expert on naval architecture.<BR>
<BR>
There are a lot of water tight doors with, I don't know what <BR>
to call them, "lips", "gaskets", whatever, surrounding them, which<BR>
might be too small to move a body shield through. Additionally, close<BR>
one of the doors and it becomes pretty damn hard to open it without<BR>
giving up any and all shield protection. Corridors are tight and corners<BR>
may be hard to make.<BR>
<BR>
Overall, I guess it depends on whether your view of Traveller starship<BR>
interiors is "Das Boot" or more "Hotel Intercontinental" in terms of <BR>
hallways sizes, exposed fixtures, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 23:33:01 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
Expression of interest....what system for actual gaming will you use? Mirc? ICQ?<BR>
straight email?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Olegamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I am trying to organize a pbem campaign online. It is set in the Classic<BR>
> Traveller/ GURPS Traveller universe in the year 1120. The campaign focuses on<BR>
> the strategic and tactical considerations of a war fought between the<BR>
> Darrians and the Sword Worlds over the Entropic Worlds (Querion Subsector of<BR>
> the Spinward Marches). I have all versions of Traveller with the exception of<BR>
> New Era and will probably use bits and pieces of all of them as appropriate.<BR>
><BR>
> I intend to use Classic Traveller as the baseline, then move through<BR>
> MegaTraveller and T4 as technical references, finally using GURPS source<BR>
> books as inspirational and flavor resources.<BR>
><BR>
> Character generation - Classic Traveller (Advanced), MegaTraveller, and T4.<BR>
> (I'll discuss the use of GURPS Characters if necessary.)<BR>
> Ship construction - High Guard with elements of GURPS Traveller when<BR>
> discussing roleplaying issues.<BR>
> Naval combat - High Guard, Book 5; T4 Imperial Squadrons<BR>
> Ground combat - Mercenary, Book 4; MegaTraveller; T4 Pocket Empires; GURPS<BR>
> StarMercs<BR>
> World construction - MegaTraveller (Heaven and Earth used); GURPS First In.<BR>
><BR>
> At first I wanted to be exclusive, but interest has been, to be honest -<BR>
> nill, so I am openning this to anyone who thinks they may be interested.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:00:37 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 9:36:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
rhoughto@one.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Expression of interest....what system for actual gaming will you use? <BR>
Mirc? ICQ?<BR>
 straight email?<BR>
 <BR>
 Other Rob<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I have ICQ capability. But the intent is to be straight email. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:06:45 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 9:36:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
rhoughto@one.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Expression of interest....what system for actual gaming will you use? <BR>
Mirc? ICQ?<BR>
 straight email?<BR>
 <BR>
 Other Rob<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
I'm posting this query in case other potential players have a similar <BR>
question: <BR>
<BR>
This is still in the formation phase. I intend to use Classic Traveller as <BR>
the rules system with consideration from other published versions when unique <BR>
situations arise that are not covered by the Classic Rules set. Also for <BR>
source book considerations -- like MegaTraveller's Rebellion sourcebook for <BR>
military organization or the T4 series for Third Imperium bureaucracies and <BR>
agencies.  GURPS is doing an outstanding job of providing new material for <BR>
background whether you use their rules system or not. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, Jul 6 2000 1:07:11 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote :-<BR>
> Imagine an A&E surgeon having to sit in a jury <BR>
> while accident victims die due to there not<BR>
> being any other A&E surgeons available for the<BR>
> worst case scenario (though I suspect this one<BR>
> would never happen).<BR>
<BR>
Correct. In most jurisdictions, medical doctors and members of the clergy are exempt from jury<BR>
duty.<BR>
<BR>
Note : 'A&E surgeons' don't exist, even on ER.<BR>
Surgical registrars are notified of incoming traumas, along with Anaesthetic and Intensive Care<BR>
personnel. They wait in the receiving room for the<BR>
ambos.<BR>
<BR>
I wouldn't trust the average emergency room doctor<BR>
with a scalpel in any case.<BR>
<BR>
But that's just me.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico (Anaesthetics/ICU), Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:12:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
I scrape at your feet!!!<BR>
<BR>
I loved those episodes (well, I loved all the Dr Who episodes, but who is<BR>
counting?) :><BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ben<BR>
Aaronovitch<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 8:08 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I wrote two stories.<BR>
<BR>
'Remembrance of the Daleks' (1987)<BR>
'Battlefield' (1988)<BR>
<BR>
+ 2 and a half tie in novels.<BR>
Transit<BR>
The Also People<BR>
So Vile A Sin (with Kate Orman)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 9:00 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:25 AM 7/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I remember being very impressed when working on<BR>
Doctor<BR>
> >Who that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
> >investment considering the cheapness of the prog)<BR>
> >researching the insignia for the RAF Regiment.<BR>
><BR>
> "when working on Doctor Who"?<BR>
><BR>
> *blink*<BR>
><BR>
> Tell me more..<BR>
><BR>
> Doug Berry<BR>
> Past President for Life, the Legion of Rassilon<BR>
> gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:17:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
I agree - I do not aim to kill PC's - but bullets hurt, and I tend to let<BR>
the dice work there magic. My Players tend to learn two or three lessions<BR>
really really quick:<BR>
<BR>
1) Cover is a wonderfull thing<BR>
1.5) Massed covering fire is a wonderful thing<BR>
2) Armor is worth it's weight in gold<BR>
3) Talk hurts less them bullets.<BR>
<BR>
IE - after a few sessions, they start to try and run or talk their way out<BR>
of fights - but sometimes that is not possible. When that happens, they tend<BR>
to over equip and over kill when ever possible. I remeber a ex marine<BR>
w/battledress (hard times) who carried a 20cm RAM AutoGL most of the time.<BR>
He kept a TacNuke clip on him also.. it accually came in handy during a<BR>
boarding action... (trying lamely to tie two threads together)...<BR>
<BR>
Ahh well<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bill<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:44 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related<BR>
topics))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry - all of mine have involved some serious ass kicking - on bolth sides<BR>
>of the fence, and in all manners (ground, air, space, underwater,<BR>
>undersomegreenwaterlikecrud)<BR>
><BR>
>Hehehe<BR>
><BR>
>I had an Aslan Female charactor bite it when the pilot and co-pilot of the<BR>
>gig she was on ejected low and fast in an atmosphere (they were PC's, and<BR>
>honestly - they did not have a choice - the rampart that had just smoked<BR>
>their engines in the classic canyon chase sceen saw to that. The PC was<BR>
>played by my wife, and she still complains about that one)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Allthough our GM doesn't like to kill off  PC's as a rule. It has<BR>
been known to happen. What usually occurs is that the PC survives but<BR>
is very severely wounded.<BR>
<BR>
There was a bit of a contest where some of the players would brag<BR>
about how many limbs they have lost and regrown.<BR>
<BR>
I think the record is 8 at this time. This usually puts the character<BR>
out of play for awhile though. This also has the secondary effect of<BR>
making medical drugs like Regen less effective. Causing the<BR>
character to have to use more powerful medical drugs These also cost<BR>
more. As an example, where ReGen 1 may cost 100cr/dose...ReGen 1B<BR>
will cost approx 1000cr/dose. (prices are estimated for the purpose<BR>
of showing relative costs).<BR>
<BR>
I myself prefer playing in the big gun games more than the political<BR>
ones. I personally don't have the knack of out politicking our GM.<BR>
He's much more well read than I am. And I enjoy having the character<BR>
that the other players turn to when they suddenly realize "Uhmmmm...<BR>
Nicolai?...Could you take care of that for us?"<BR>
Nicolai is one of my characters who was frequently referred to as<BR>
"The Big Gun" A nickname I did little to dissuade the others from<BR>
using.<BR>
<BR>
"Okay... we have a medic, A pilot, our computer expert... Now all we<BR>
need is a really big gun....Hey?...What's Nicolai been up to lately?"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill "My pack gets lighter as we go" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 07:34:31 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
On Wednesday, July 05, 2000 7:17 AM<BR>
Tsykoduk said,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 3) Talk hurts less them bullets.<BR>
><BR>
> IE - after a few sessions, they start to try and run or talk their way out<BR>
> of fights - but sometimes that is not possible. When that happens, they<BR>
tend<BR>
<BR>
Back when I first started lurking on the TML I was surprised at how many<BR>
people had military/high combat campaigns.  As a player, Traveller was the<BR>
first RPG to teach me fear/respect for combat.  Compared to D&D style combat<BR>
you could be killed/incapacitated incredibly fast in a firefight.  It made<BR>
me far less likely to wade into a situation with guns blazing and more<BR>
likely to seek stealthier or other alternatives to direct combat.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 07:54:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
on 7/5/00 6:07 PM, Robert O'Connor at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Frank Pitt wrote :-<BR>
>> Imagine an A&E surgeon having to sit in a jury<BR>
>> while accident victims die due to there not<BR>
>> being any other A&E surgeons available for the<BR>
>> worst case scenario (though I suspect this one<BR>
>> would never happen).<BR>
> <BR>
> Correct. In most jurisdictions, medical doctors and members of the clergy are<BR>
> exempt from jury<BR>
> duty.<BR>
<BR>
Any jurisdiction that can't spare a doctor for a week or two of jury duty is<BR>
in trouble IMHO. No one who claims the rights of a citizen should be exempt.<BR>
Working in several hospitals, I've met too many surgeons who already thing<BR>
the god-like creatures who are above the concerns of us mortal men (and<BR>
women).<BR>
<BR>
If you want juries with thoughtful, intelligent people, you need to make<BR>
sure these people can't wangle out of jury duty based on some special<BR>
status.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Note : 'A&E surgeons' don't exist, even on ER.<BR>
> Surgical registrars are notified of incoming traumas, along with Anaesthetic<BR>
> and Intensive Care<BR>
> personnel. They wait in the receiving room for the<BR>
> ambos.<BR>
> <BR>
> I wouldn't trust the average emergency room doctor<BR>
> with a scalpel in any case.<BR>
> <BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
<BR>
Who came up with the idea that it is somehow a good thing to deprive people<BR>
of sleep and then place the lives of others in their hands, anyway?  To my<BR>
way of thinking, this is not just stupid.  This is criminal.<BR>
<BR>
My .02Cr, of course.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I want the well-rested doctor, please" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2721<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2722</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2722<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
Re: Jury Duty<BR>
Re: jury duty (my experience - long)<BR>
Re: Auth Thum<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (1, 2, 3!)<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: reasons to hate AD&D (1, 2, 3!)<BR>
Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 08:07:59 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boby Bunkers<BR>
<BR>
on 7/5/00 6:25 AM, Ethan Henry at egh@klg.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>> The alternative seems to be to do the same thing, only without the added<BR>
>> protection of the shield.  How is this better?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Note:  Since I have no experience boarding ships, I am forced to rely on<BR>
>> MOUNT and police examples.<BR>
> <BR>
> So, to reiterate Chris' point, yes, I got the idea, I just thought you<BR>
> were looking for any possible problems with the scenario.<BR>
<BR>
I do, thanks Chris and Ethan.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> It is a heck of a lot better than no shield, sure. Based on contemporary<BR>
> police examples, I'm sure it would work just as well. Kind of.<BR>
> <BR>
> Imagine a SWAT team taking their body shield tactics and trying to<BR>
> get into not a house, but instead, a modern US battleship. Now, I've<BR>
> never been on a battleship (well, I think I was on that decommissioned<BR>
> Canadian frigate at Ontario Place once) but I've seen TV footage, etc,<BR>
> making me a complete and utter expert on naval architecture.<BR>
<BR>
Well, aside from the fact that there an no 'modern' US battleships (no more<BR>
on active duty), I see you point.<BR>
> <BR>
> There are a lot of water tight doors with, I don't know what<BR>
> to call them, "lips", "gaskets", whatever, surrounding them, which<BR>
> might be too small to move a body shield through. Additionally, close<BR>
<BR>
Bunker should be made (I hope!) to fit the 'terrain'.  Negotiating doors is<BR>
always tricky, but at least there is the cover of the door itself.  At this<BR>
point you must expose one team member to open the door.<BR>
<BR>
> one of the doors and it becomes pretty damn hard to open it without<BR>
> giving up any and all shield protection. Corridors are tight and corners<BR>
> may be hard to make.<BR>
<BR>
Corners are a great place for the bunker.  Lead with the shield, just like<BR>
they do in houses where the bunker is used, as opposed to exposing you own<BR>
tender body.  If the corridor is really tight, angle the shield.<BR>
<BR>
The whole point of the shield is to negotiate long passageways while having<BR>
some cover.  Ships (like houses) can contain lots of very hazardous 'killing<BR>
funnels'.  The defender knows that you'll be coming up the hallway, and can<BR>
bring fire to bear for the whole length.<BR>
<BR>
With the bunker, at least you have some cover of your own, and can use it<BR>
while bringing your own fire to bear.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Overall, I guess it depends on whether your view of Traveller starship<BR>
> interiors is "Das Boot" or more "Hotel Intercontinental" in terms of<BR>
> hallways sizes, exposed fixtures, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ethan<BR>
> <BR>
For the average ship, I tend toward the 'Das Boot' model, or at least the<BR>
modern naval vessel.  Given the cost, space is a premium commodity.  Now<BR>
luxury liners will be different.  Next time I'm doing IT work at the<BR>
shipyards, I'll have to take my digital camera and shoot some film aboard<BR>
ship.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for he input, BTW.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:21:35 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote,<BR>
>In defense of such people, as I may be forced to be one one day, the reason<BR>
many people have to avoid jury duty is because rather than scheduling it<BR>
ahead of time so that people can arrange their lives to be able to attend,<BR>
in most cases you're only told two or three days before you're supposed to<BR>
be there.<<BR>
<BR>
That is a problem in your area then, not a general one. All my notices have<BR>
arrived at least month before the date I had to show up. The only problem<BR>
there was making sure I didn't lose the subpoena. :-P<BR>
<BR>
>I've heard a so-called expert witness' testimony once, testifying on a<BR>
technical issue in which I happen to have knowledge, who was basically<BR>
"lying without actually telling an untruth" all through his testimony<BR>
(ommission, vague statements, invalid assumptions, etc. )<<BR>
<BR>
The first case I served on, the expert witness doctor for the defendant in a<BR>
civil injury suit sat there and told us he didn't have a diagnosis of the<BR>
plaintiff. Between that and everything else he was trying not to say, we<BR>
didn't need any help knowing he was trying to blow smoke up our....<BR>
I can see it being relevant in other circumstances though. I am waiting to<BR>
left on a panel involving some sort of brawling and see if anyone tries<BR>
spinning any nonsense. That probably goes to jury nullification as well as<BR>
you'd have to really work to convince me that anything wasn't reasonable<BR>
self defense in a brawl.<BR>
<BR>
>Judges _should_ be honourable people, who will remove themselves from cases<BR>
where they cannot be impartial. And there should be systems in place to<BR>
remove judges who do not remove themselves. Unfortunately the whole concept<BR>
of honour has gone out of style.<<BR>
<BR>
That is way too common in NYC.<BR>
<BR>
>Who came up with the idea that it is somehow a good thing to deprive people<BR>
of sleep and then place the lives of others in their hands, anyway?  To my<BR>
way of thinking, this is not just stupid.  This is criminal.<<BR>
<BR>
In NY it is criminal. Hospitals don't seem to care and no one wants to<BR>
enforce the fines on them. :\<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:28:02 EDT<BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: jury duty (my experience - long)<BR>
<BR>
I ended up being called up for duty twice while in Lansing Michigan.  This is <BR>
probably from 15 or so years ago, so please forgive me if I misremember <BR>
something a bit.<BR>
<BR>
First, we were supposed to call in to an automated system before each evening <BR>
to see if your group is required for the next day, and the first time they <BR>
just told my group not to come in for the entire week.  Guess they didn't <BR>
want to break the bank by paying each person $5 for each half day (or portion <BR>
thereof).<BR>
<BR>
The second time I actually had to go for three days.  They gave a brief <BR>
introduction Monday morning, have us register as being present, sent some <BR>
more groups home due to a low case load, and I waited until about 1PM before <BR>
they finally dismissed my group.  Tuesday we waited the whole day.  Wednesday <BR>
we waited until after lunch and then my group was called up for a muder trial <BR>
and are told it might last a month or two.  We trek several blocks to the <BR>
actual courthouse and have us all file into the normal "spectator" section of <BR>
the courtroom.<BR>
<BR>
Then the court attendant (don't know what, if any, more official title the <BR>
lady might have had) read off the first 12 names.  The judge went through <BR>
asking those in the jury box (only) who might know anyone connected with the <BR>
case, asked if they could remain impartial especially with the knowledge that <BR>
one of the main witnesses for the prosecution was a fellow inmate who had <BR>
evidently overheard a confession (gloating?) of the what the defendant had <BR>
supposedly done, also asked if there were any new hardships to be delt with.  <BR>
Several were dismissed with that, the lawyers asked some questions of <BR>
particular people, a few more were dismissed, and after each dismissal the <BR>
attendant called up another name, who are then given the same lecture and <BR>
questions by the judge and possibly by the lawyers.  If I remember right, the <BR>
lawyers could dismiss people for cause, but could also just dimiss some (I <BR>
believe two each) without giving any cause.<BR>
<BR>
After several more hours of waiting, my name gets called up, I go up and get <BR>
the spiel, am asked if I know anybody in the penal system and could remain <BR>
impartial.  I'm from a small town whose major industry is staffing prisons <BR>
but tell the judge I can remain impartial, then immediately get dismissed by <BR>
one of the lawyers.  Once you've been called to the jury box, even if you <BR>
don't end up serving, your time is up and you needn't report again for the <BR>
remainder of the week so I was done.<BR>
<BR>
I was willing to serve and did not ask for hardship ( I was in college at the <BR>
time, and anything over about a month would have put me into the school <BR>
year).  I am glad I was NOT selected, however, since I found out (via <BR>
newspaper) that the case was completed over a year later, after I had already <BR>
graduated from school.<BR>
<BR>
Good luck pulling anything out of this you can use!<BR>
<BR>
Tony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:56:07 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Auth Thum<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 7:56:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>  Subject: Auth Thau<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > Ever take a look at "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by Bonewits? I haven't<BR>
>  >  checked out the new GURPS version, but the older version *was* an<BR>
>  >  attempt to balance real magical practice against game needs.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Our edition has nothing to do with GURPS - it is merely a revision by <BR>
>  Bonewits to his original work, and is usable with al game systems.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  LKW<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
Do you know what changes were made from the original (I thought it was <BR>
supposed to be a reprint)?<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:16:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Todd Langstaff <tlangsta@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 4 Jul 00, at 15:06, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is<BR>
>repared for boarders is in serious trouble.  How does<BR>
>one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
<BR>
I think any discussion about how to board a ship<BR>
should begin with, why? I can quickly think of three<BR>
reasons you would want to board an enemy ship:<BR>
<BR>
1. You want to take the ship over. I don't now how<BR>
practical this idea is. Usually, in order to "prime"<BR>
the target ship for boarding, you have to blow the<BR>
&%#@! out of it. There wouldn't be much left, unless<BR>
your characters (or nation) is intereted in scrap<BR>
parts.<BR>
<BR>
2. You want the cargo. If this is the case, forget<BR>
about fighting your way through winding starship<BR>
tunnels, most cargo bays have doors which open on the<BR>
outer hull of the ship. Just blast directly into the<BR>
cargo bay and take what you want.<BR>
<BR>
3. You need to rescue someone/something inside (like<BR>
the Star Wars Death Star romp). In this case, I hope<BR>
your GM plays the bad guys like Hollywood villains.<BR>
Otherwise, if the person wasn't killed in the<BR>
disabling of the ship, the defending crew would have<BR>
plenty of time to kill them before you fought your way<BR>
through (would make Wako (sp?)look tame). A covert<BR>
operation would be more reasonable.<BR>
<BR>
By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
think the idea of taking over a ship by boading is a<BR>
romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
<BR>
- -Todd<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:00:58<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:08 AM 7/5/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>I wrote two stories.<BR>
><BR>
>'Remembrance of the Daleks' (1987)<BR>
>'Battlefield' (1988)<BR>
<BR>
Damn! Those were two excellent serials!<BR>
<BR>
Penguin Boy bows in honor of the man who let Daleks climb stairs.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rogers-sf.com/doctorwho/story7h.shtml<BR>
<BR>
Penguin Boy grovels before the man who brought back UNIT.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.rogers-sf.com/doctorwho/story7n.shtml<BR>
<BR>
If you ever get out here, Kirsten and I will ply you with booze to get all<BR>
the good stories.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I'll stop ranting now.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:06:00<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
At 11:42 PM 7/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Glenn, Doug et al.  This goes for you all as well.  On the Portland OR area?<BR>
>We game every Saturday night.  Modified CT.  If you're interested in<BR>
>dropping in, just shoot me an email.  You can always read the game notes to<BR>
>find out the current state of the game.  We publish these weekly on our web<BR>
>site (http://www.travellercentral.com)<BR>
<BR>
I am informed by reliable sources that Oregon experiences an odd phenomenon<BR>
where frozen water actually piles up on the ground in cold, wet piles.  I<BR>
prefer my water in the liquid form, and shall therefore remain safely in<BR>
San Francisco, where it last snowed in 1976.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:36:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:21 PM 7/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Question 1:  What is the typical AV of say a CES or combat armor?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ABD 13 (Augmented Battledress TL13) = 9R<BR>
>> ABD 10 = 7R<BR>
>> Cloth 7 = 1F<BR>
>> <BR>
>> No CES in standard rules but we (BITS) rated it at 5F on a TLAR<BR>
>>principle...<BR>
><BR>
>So if I understand this correctly, there is no hope of injuring someone<BR>
>wearing CES with a rifle,  i.e. a rifle is a 4D weapon in T4, and CES has a<BR>
>AV rated at 5 flexible.  The best one can do is 4 (all three die reduced to<BR>
>ones).  Even if I use my .458 elephant rifle, a gun that can send a 32 gram<BR>
>monolithic solid out at 730 m/sec and pierce a 75 cm thick elephant skull,<BR>
>the best I can hope for is 10 points of damage?! I've personally put these<BR>
>rounds through an automotive engine block.<BR>
<BR>
There is more than more than one rifle available for T4.  ACQ has 37<BR>
different models, and the are more on my GridTech rifle page.<BR>
<BR>
A TL-12 Gauss sniper rifle does 8(AP) That will penetrate the TL13<BR>
battledress and do 1D of damage.  The Laser Rifle-12 does 7D damage.<BR>
<BR>
I did a quick design job on the round you gave..<BR>
<BR>
Name	Dam.	TL	Range	Shots	Mass	Reload	Cost<BR>
E. Gun	5	7	Medium	4	9.7kg	0.2kg	Cr989<BR>
<BR>
I will point out that elephants, at best, have 1 point of armor, and a hit<BR>
through the skull would most definitely be an extra damage hit.  Since they<BR>
could absorb all four remaining dice do to their size, you will see a lot<BR>
of damage.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know T4 well, so I pull the books (Basic book and "Emperors<BR>
>arsenal").  Most illuminating. I am trying to figure out what TL10 weapons<BR>
>one uses against ABD-10.  A TL10 sniper rifle is only 6D, and given each AV<BR>
>of rigid armor nullifies id D of damage, I see that the sniper rifle is<BR>
>totally useless against ABD-10. Grenades do 8, so there's some potential (1D<BR>
>damage not soaked up by armor).  I'm getting depressed<BR>
<BR>
If you are facing troops in battledress, you should be!  ABD-10 costs Cr.<BR>
15,200.  It's expensive, and it's worth it because it works.  My old M-21<BR>
was great, but useless against a T-72 tank.  <BR>
<BR>
The anti-tank missile-6 costs Cr. 750, and does 22D of damage, plus 14D<BR>
explosive.  Ignoring the cost break for the low tech level, I can afford to<BR>
buy 20 of those missiles for each suit of battledress you buy.  I only have<BR>
to win once.<BR>
<BR>
In short, battledress is nasty, but you can defeat it.  Most of the armors<BR>
in ACQ are in the 3-5F range, so that characters will still get hurt in<BR>
fire fights.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
   http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
<BR>
"A mrgs einu sinni hluti minn systir..."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:42:25 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
At 07:31 05/07/00 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>I am trying to organize a pbem campaign online. It is set in the Classic <BR>
>Traveller/ GURPS Traveller universe in the year 1120. The campaign focuses<BR>
on <BR>
>the strategic and tactical considerations of a war fought between the <BR>
>Darrians and the Sword Worlds over the Entropic Worlds (Querion Subsector of <BR>
>the Spinward Marches). I have all versions of Traveller with the exception<BR>
of <BR>
>New Era and will probably use bits and pieces of all of them as appropriate. <BR>
<BR>
Tentitive interest shown...how will the actual mechanics work?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:54:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
> in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
> think the idea of taking over a ship by boarding is a<BR>
> romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
> movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
> weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
><BR>
> -Todd<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Weren't there a couple of commando operations during WWII involving<BR>
boarding?  Not classic boarding, to be sure, but more SBS/Seal type actions.<BR>
Walt?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:02:06 EDT<BR>
From: WriteFool@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 1:55:34 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< > By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
 > in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
 > think the idea of taking over a ship by boarding is a<BR>
 > romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
 > movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
 > weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
 ><BR>
 > -Todd<BR>
 ><BR>
 <BR>
 Weren't there a couple of commando operations during WWII involving<BR>
 boarding?  Not classic boarding, to be sure, but more SBS/Seal type actions.<BR>
 Walt?<BR>
 <BR>
 Tod<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In June 1944 a Task Group commanded by Daniel Gallery captured the German <BR>
submarine U-505.  Because of a little pre-planning, they were able to hit the <BR>
surfaced sub with a lot of small caliber weaponry and the sub crew abandoned <BR>
ship.  So it wasn't a classical boarding action with "repelling" and the <BR>
clash of sabers (or the 20th Century equivalent) but there was some risk <BR>
involved and the boarding party received commendations for the act of <BR>
boarding a potentially hostile submarine.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  How successful would a similar tactic be if used by pirates.  For <BR>
example they intercept a passenger liner and fire all sorts of low-damage <BR>
weaponry that overwhelms and panics the relatively "soft" liner crew, leading <BR>
them to abandon ship or surrender?  A situation could evolve where the PCs <BR>
realize what is going on and either have to convince the captain to continue <BR>
to escape and evade, or take the fight to the pirates themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Michael Breen<BR>
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:03:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I am informed by reliable sources that Oregon experiences an odd<BR>
> phenomenon<BR>
> where frozen water actually piles up on the ground in cold, wet piles.  I<BR>
> prefer my water in the liquid form, and shall therefore remain safely in<BR>
> San Francisco, where it last snowed in 1976.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, I hope that doesn't preclude a visit.  We have observed the phenomenon<BR>
that you described.  I believe that last year we had two whole days when<BR>
snow was observed on the ground!  Mostly, we have the liquid type<BR>
precipitation.  It rains something like 187 days out of the year.<BR>
<BR>
In you case (having enjoyed a tour of SF on more than one occasion) I merely<BR>
meant, that if you found yourself in the area, you must let us know.  Aside<BR>
from Traveller and a visit to the local shooting establishment, when in the<BR>
area, one must make a pilgrimage to Powell's 'city of books', which I am<BR>
informed is the largest book store in the world in terms of total number of<BR>
titles for sale.  For some of us, this alone is a reason to come to/live in<BR>
the pacific northwest Mecca of moisture.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:23:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
[snip -- good stuff deleted]<BR>
<BR>
> If you are facing troops in battledress, you should be!  ABD-10 costs Cr.<BR>
> 15,200.  It's expensive, and it's worth it because it works.  My old M-21<BR>
> was great, but useless against a T-72 tank.<BR>
><BR>
> The anti-tank missile-6 costs Cr. 750, and does 22D of damage, plus 14D<BR>
> explosive.  Ignoring the cost break for the low tech level, I can<BR>
> afford to<BR>
> buy 20 of those missiles for each suit of battledress you buy.  I<BR>
> only have<BR>
> to win once.<BR>
><BR>
> In short, battledress is nasty, but you can defeat it.  Most of the armors<BR>
> in ACQ are in the 3-5F range, so that characters will still get hurt in<BR>
> fire fights.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas Berry      gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>    http://gridlore.home.mondspring.com<BR>
><BR>
Doug<BR>
<BR>
1.  note the URL above.  Ooops, but I figured it out. For some reason, I<BR>
didn't associate Sylea Downport with you.<BR>
<BR>
2.  Thanks for the detailed reply.  This really help.  Although I'm not<BR>
really a fan of action points, it looks like I'll be leveraging a lot of ACQ<BR>
stuff.  If you'll allow, I'd like to steal some of your designs for my<BR>
"Mercenary's Guide to weapons" site. Naturally, credit will be given, and a<BR>
link back to Gridlore tech/Sylea Down.  You don't have a logo, by any<BR>
chance?<BR>
<BR>
I think I'll try some ACQ/T4 conversions for the stuff I already have posted<BR>
and see how it works out.  Hope you don't mind if I run the results past you<BR>
to see if I'm getting it right.<BR>
<BR>
Your mention of LAWs was exactly my thought.  Perhaps something like<BR>
Armbrust, or that funky little French AT weapon whose name/designation<BR>
escapes me (sorry, no Jane's at work).<BR>
<BR>
So, to really get a feel for the ACQ weapons and damage, what other material<BR>
should one read?  T4?  I am pretty much a CT ref, but some of the combat<BR>
stuff really galls.  OTOH, I know it very well.  I should point out that I<BR>
have been rather disappointed with FFS2, and kind of results one often gets.<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, do you still have the photo of the 1911 .50 BMG upper conversion.  I<BR>
remember seeing the photo in G&A under the heading "most likely to blow<BR>
himself up".  I tell people about this, but am usually met with looks of<BR>
utter disbelief.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
"The coldest winter I ever spent was the summer I spent in San Francisco"--<BR>
Mark Twain<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:45:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav:  How successful would a similar tactic be if used by<BR>
> pirates.  For<BR>
> example they intercept a passenger liner and fire all sorts of low-damage<BR>
> weaponry that overwhelms and panics the relatively "soft" liner<BR>
> crew, leading<BR>
> them to abandon ship or surrender?  A situation could evolve<BR>
> where the PCs<BR>
> realize what is going on and either have to convince the captain<BR>
> to continue<BR>
> to escape and evade, or take the fight to the pirates themselves.<BR>
><BR>
> Michael Breen<BR>
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
If you have pirates who have a reputation of not harming passengers/crew<BR>
there could be lots of motivation for surrendering (i.e. Tukera isn't paying<BR>
me enough to get killed for them. The armored car driver phenomenon.  Pay<BR>
someone $7.00 an hour to guard a truck with a few 100,000.  Why get yourself<BR>
killed?).  Still you could have some crew or passengers (PCs?) who just<BR>
don't like the idea.  I know my PCs aren't inclined to trust their lives to<BR>
some 'scurrilous space scum', regardless of their reputation. And if the<BR>
cargo to be taken just happens to belong to a PC, they're even less likely<BR>
to give up without a fight.<BR>
<BR>
"Hey, that MY 50 tons of automatic weapons.  No pirates getting them without<BR>
paying at least the going rate.  I have a reputation to think of".  And the<BR>
nest defense is a good offense. "we'll just board them while boarding us.<BR>
Besides, their ship looks cooler".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (1, 2, 3!)<BR>
<BR>
<Kiri><BR>
<BR>
The only really good fantasy games out there imnaaho<BR>
were the Chaosium ones that at least got the idea that<BR>
magickal attack is a contest of Will (Ego). I did play<BR>
Call of Cthulhu a lot, and irritated various refs by<BR>
frequently living a long, long time, much longer than<BR>
PC's are supposed to.<BR>
<BR>
</Kiri><BR>
<BR>
You'd have enjoyed my CoC games. I always tried to<BR>
portray the "bog standard" (as in non-Mythos)<BR>
occultists with some degree of realism, and I never<BR>
killed a PC!<BR>
<BR>
Oh, wait, there was one guy who screwed up my "Masks<BR>
of Nyarlathotep" campaign. (Yeah, so I used a<BR>
published adventure. So what? It happens to be a<BR>
_very_ good published adventure.)<BR>
<BR>
He decided that the best way to start the campaign<BR>
would be to rob a bank. He would have gotten away with<BR>
it too, if it wasn't for those pesky kids... or<BR>
rather, that pesky cop, a few weeks from retirement,<BR>
whose brains he happened to blow out in full view of a<BR>
bunch of other policemen...<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:48:05 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Weren't there a couple of commando operations during WWII involving <BR>
> boarding?  Not classic boarding, to be sure, but more SBS/Seal type <BR>
> actions. <BR>
> Walt? <BR>
<BR>
Wow, I'm a WW2 data source...<G><BR>
<BR>
Let's see...there were commando ops by the Brits against the<BR>
battleship Tirpitz in October '42, British attacks by canoe<BR>
at Bordeaux in December '42 ("The Cockleshell Heroes" was the movie <BR>
made of this raid)...Italian Frogmen in the Mediterranean claimed about <BR>
28 ships between '41 and '43, mostly in the harbors of Gibraltar and <BR>
Alexandria.  These were actions by minisub, motor launch, torpedo boat <BR>
and such, usually intended to hand-place shaped charges on the hulls of <BR>
targeted vessels.<BR>
<BR>
An American naval hunter-killer group managed to board U-505 and<BR>
capture it in mid-1944, but that was as much luck (and bold<BR>
exploitation of a fortunate opportunity) than anything else - it<BR>
was the first foriegn warship captured by the US Navy on the high<BR>
seas since 1815.<BR>
<BR>
I think that some of the varius harbor fights (like the commando<BR>
raid on the drydocks at St Naizare in March 1942, or the capture<BR>
of Cherbourg by the Americans and the lightning capture of<BR>
Antwerp by the British, both in 1944) may have included some<BR>
firefights on ships in harbor, but certainly not as the point of<BR>
the operations.<BR>
<BR>
There were probably similar actions in the Pacific theater, but <BR>
I don't have as much info about those.  Certainly, by WW2 (and long<BR>
before then) the boarding of an enemy ship that's still resisting was <BR>
exceedingly rare.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:57:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: reasons to hate AD&D (1, 2, 3!)<BR>
<BR>
> He decided that the best way to start the campaign<BR>
> would be to rob a bank. He would have gotten away with<BR>
> it too, if it wasn't for those pesky kids... or<BR>
> rather, that pesky cop, a few weeks from retirement,<BR>
> whose brains he happened to blow out in full view of a<BR>
> bunch of other policemen...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You know, for some reason police get really upset about things like this.<BR>
My players have a healthy respect for the law, as IMTU people get arrested<BR>
for doing bad things (unless they are very clever, pay the right bribes or<BR>
have the tacit approval of the powers that be).  Never kill a cop.  He may<BR>
be corrupt, a jerk or had it coming, but he invariable has hundreds or<BR>
thousands of brother officers.  All they no is that 'there, but for the<BR>
grace of god go I" and that you are a cop-killer.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you must, there is always a corejob (provided you trust your<BR>
friendly neighborhood organlegger)<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Corejob" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:15:41 GMT<BR>
From: newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk)<BR>
Subject: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
   Man, I hate to ask these kind of questions....<BR>
<BR>
   Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's.<BR>
Friends are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads<BR>
of old CT stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
   Here is the question...<BR>
<BR>
   What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
<BR>
   Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
<BR>
   Sorry for the "newby" type question. Everyone has to start (or in<BR>
my case, restart) somewhere...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2722<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2723<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
RE: Magic<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
RE: Notorious TMLers <BR>
Re: Traveller combat <BR>
Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:32:44 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: USConst, slavery, and the draft<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:01:38 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> If the draft-as-slavery issue were to be argued before the<BR>
>> Supreme Court, the government, if their lawyers are even<BR>
>> minimally competent, would argue that this is nothing more than a<BR>
>> partial call-out of the militia.<BR>
<BR>
>And the opposition lawyers can argue that the definition in the US Code<BR>
>is contrary to the 13th(?) Amendment.<BR>
<BR>
No, because the sections of the Code in question do not say<BR>
anything about the draft (or Selective Service, as it is now<BR>
called), only about how the various classes of the Militia are<BR>
defined.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Magic<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Very  much agreed.  As both an anthropologist and a practising <BR>
> ceremonial and Wiccan magician, for me, magic is not a science <BR>
> and it is not a protoscience, it is an art, and a practice which is not <BR>
> subject to reason.  Magic and myth deal with archetypes, <BR>
> obsessions, perception, dream logic and similar non-rational <BR>
> quantities.  Read Mircea Eliade's book _Shamanism: Archaic <BR>
> Techniques of Ecstasy_, or Richard Kiekheffer's book on 15th <BR>
> century magic _Forbidden Rites_ and you will understand a bit <BR>
> more about the methods of thought behind magic.    <BR>
> <BR>
In my experience, magick isn't done in a particularly rational mind, but<BR>
if you look at it later (and if you look at the folklore of various<BR>
cultures) you can see the interconnections and the logic that does make it<BR>
work.  Magick is NOT science, but there was a time when they were the<BR>
same.  They bifurcated sometime during the Renaissance.  Ceremonial magick<BR>
is a bridge between the two.  Both of them are organized systems of<BR>
thought.  It's just that magick involves much more than the conscious<BR>
mind.  (But then, so does science, especially at the quantum level.)<BR>
<BR>
I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, literally a fox.  I am<BR>
definitely a human being.  But I am still kitsune.  The state of mind in<BR>
which the truth of all these statements can be understood is not<BR>
scientifically rational, but neither is it devoid of logic entirely.<BR>
<BR>
> Then again, my favorite magic system are (not counting Forsaken <BR>
> Rites for Conspiracy X & Liber Ka for Nephilim, both of which I <BR>
> wrote and use) Unknown Armies and GURPS Voodoo.  Nuts-n-<BR>
> bolts, orderly rational magic systems make no sense to me.  They <BR>
> just feel like odd tech with the serial numbers filled off.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not familiar with either, but I don't care for overly technological<BR>
magick systems either.  I liked the magick system in Chaosium Basic<BR>
Role-Playing, used in both RQ and CoC and even in Stormbringer with<BR>
components from each of these fantasy worlds added on, because it<BR>
recognized that Ego (the Will of the magick user) was the ultimate power<BR>
in charge when you cast a spell.  The reason spells are hard and that<BR>
magick is best done in secret is that the more people know what you are<BR>
doing, the more their thoughts and intent can interfere with yours.  You<BR>
are attempting to enforce your own will upon consensus reality (unless you<BR>
are doing religious magick, a different thing entire), and a certain<BR>
amount of hubris is therefore required (the reason many gods are not too<BR>
fond of magickers-- we tend to be uppity).<BR>
<BR>
I would, in many of my games, just ask the person what they wanted to<BR>
accomplish and after they'd spent some time researching it and getting the<BR>
components together, we'd assign it a difficulty based on how much<BR>
consensus reality I thought it was violating for that particular universe<BR>
(in some universes, point-press-poof magick may be possible, but in those<BR>
more similar to ours, it isn't.)  Then we'd do an Ego check.<BR>
<BR>
I started work on a game system of my own some time ago and some of the<BR>
characteristics that were important for magickal types were:<BR>
<BR>
Will<BR>
Presence<BR>
Reason (for ceremonialists especially)<BR>
Faith (for religious types)<BR>
<BR>
I should really drag that out and work some more on it...<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  ^_^<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net> wrote: <BR>
> <BR>
> > I believe that you would like the magic rules "Authentic Thaumaturgy"<BR>
> > by P. Bonewitz, Steve Jackson Games has published it in the past. The<BR>
> > first Edition that I has very concise rules for magic(ie Law of<BR>
> > Contagion, Similarity, etc). I have not bought the edition by SJ Games<BR>
> > edition, yet. The edition I have has no game system bias at all. But I<BR>
> > believe that the one by SJ Games will have bias towards GURPS.<G><BR>
> <BR>
> While some folks may find this book useful, IMHO Bonewits is a <BR>
> poor and somewhat silly occultist and an even worse game <BR>
> designer.  That book is full of just about everything that I find silly, <BR>
> unworkably, wretched, and ahistorical about the worse gaming <BR>
> magic, all in one slender but unreadable volume  He attempts to <BR>
> treat magic as some wacky form of technology, mixing physics <BR>
> and magic at random and yielding only useless mush.<BR>
> <BR>
I thought it was a lousy game design, but I didn't think he was that bad<BR>
on the magickal side.  Then again, it's been many a year since I looked at<BR>
Authentic Thaumaturgy-- I read the book "Real Magic" and I find it to be<BR>
pretty okay in terms of theory as to why some forms of magick MIGHT work,<BR>
and I may be confusing them. <BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:42:39 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Tunnels and Trolls (was RE: Notorious TMLers ...)<BR>
<BR>
On 07/04/00 at 11:17 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>>>You want *simple*? Try Tunnels & Trolls.<BR>
<BR>
>> A truly lame game. Perhaps the lamest. I played in one T&T adventure many<BR>
>> years ago. I had a big fighter carrying a big axe aboard a ship of some<BR>
>> sort. We met some sort of pirates. Maybe goblins. I swing my axe.<BR>
>><BR>
>> "You get three of them," says the GM.<BR>
>><BR>
>> "Three?!" I say, somewhat incredulously.<BR>
>><BR>
>> "That's on your swing. You get three more on your backswing."<BR>
<BR>
>Sounds like he oversimplified the combat a bit. :-)<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  Yes, but only a little. <g>   I liked T&T more than D&D, just for the fun of it, although I haven't pulled out that old book in 20+ years.   Remember the whacky names of all the spells? ROFL!<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: A Resource for Active Military Campaigns<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
>"Why did you do it?"<BR>
>"For the _honor_ of the regiment."<BR>
>Unit DNE of the line a Bolo Mark XX Model B of the<BR>
>Concordiat (not the US Army) in 'Field Test' by Keith <BR>
>Laumer as reprinted in 'Bolo'<BR>
<BR>
I believe that that correction is correct.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:53:11 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:29:19 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav:  Of the many cultures within the Imperium, I assume the Aussie way<BR>
>of law and courts, and juries apply somewhere, as well as exotic ones<BR>
>totally alien to my way of thinking, so I am really interested in such<BR>
>things both in a game sense, and in real life.  As an aid to model other<BR>
>forms, I'd like to hear how the U.S. works their jury selection (how jurors<BR>
>are chosen to start, and then how they are empanelled), as well as how the<BR>
>English (I'm assuming something similar to Oz?), and any other nationalities<BR>
>do theirs (I believe we have Germans and Dutch on the list, and more...).<BR>
>Anyone else care to add something to this?<BR>
<BR>
Well, my experience in NY was that you sit and wait to be called.<BR>
When you're called, you go to a smaller room, and fill out a<BR>
questionnaire, and sit and wait some more.  Then, a couple of<BR>
shysters and a judge come in, and one - the plaintiff's shyster,<BR>
in this case - provides a short paragraph summary of the facts of<BR>
the case, very unbiased.  Then, they ask if there is anyone that<BR>
feels they cannot approach the case in an unbiased manner; those<BR>
who so indicate are excused, and return to the pool room.  Then,<BR>
they go through the questionnaires, and ask specific questions of<BR>
specific individuals, based on how you answered the<BR>
questionnaire.  You answer them, and then, after there are no<BR>
more questions, the shysters and the judge file out, and you sit<BR>
and wait some more.  Then, they come back in, and announce who is<BR>
on the jury.  If you are not selected at this stage of the<BR>
process, you are excused, and your jury service for the next<BR>
two-to-four years at that level is complete.  You are known by<BR>
number throughout the process.<BR>
<BR>
The questionnaire is anonymous (except for having your number on<BR>
it); you are asked basic demographics information, plus a few<BR>
questions such as who your employer is, and whether you have been<BR>
a participant in the criminal justice system and in the civil<BR>
tort system.<BR>
<BR>
I have been called twice; the first time, it was the local<BR>
transit agency being sued by a rider for (alleged) injuries<BR>
(allegedly) sustained when the rider was caught in the closing<BR>
doors of the train; the second time, parents were suing the<BR>
school district for negligence over the fact that their son had<BR>
fallen from some bleachers erected in the gym for spectators to a<BR>
sporting event.  In neither case was I acceptable to the<BR>
shysters.  In the transit case, I indicated that I was unable to<BR>
approach the case in an unbiased manner; the agency's shyster<BR>
made the error of asking why, and the judge made the error of not<BR>
slapping the shyster down then and there - so I answered:<BR>
"Because I've been caught in those damn doors too many times<BR>
myself!".  Immediate return of the entire set of potential jurors<BR>
for that case to the pool (anyone that doesn't think that<BR>
response would have instantly biased the entire group, write me<BR>
privately; I have some real estate deals for you, real cheap).<BR>
In the school case, I was found unsuitable because I had been the<BR>
plaintiff in a similar case many years previously (I was the<BR>
injured minor; the respondent was not a school or other<BR>
government agency, however) - the respondent's shyster asked me<BR>
about whether the case had been resolved to my satisfaction; I<BR>
indicated that I had no direct knowledge, as it never came to<BR>
trial, and as a minor, at the time, I would not have had a full<BR>
understanding of the situation nor would I have been a<BR>
participant in any settlement negotiations.  I presumed that it<BR>
had been resolved to my parents' satisfaction.  The shyster then<BR>
asked me about bias due to the similarities of my case with his;<BR>
my response was that my case was so long ago, that the<BR>
similarities were "noted, and disregarded".  He didn't like that<BR>
answer, I think.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>Subject: RE: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick<BR>
>questions)<BR>
>Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>
>> Anyone on the TML ever play Aftermath.<BR>
<BR>
I playtested Aftermath when I was a college student.<BR>
<BR>
>> It had an immense flowchart for resolving damage.<BR>
<BR>
We found it very helpful; really the only way to handle it.<BR>
 I don't recall whether the publishers or another play test<BR>
group developed the flowchart.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
>So, how do you think this would stack up in Traveller,<BR>
>where the Geneva restictions don't necessarily apply?<BR>
>(Other similar conventions might apply of course, but<BR>
>that's another topic)<BR>
<BR>
There are effectively no restrictions on small arms used by<BR>
military forces in internal actions in the Imperium (i.e.,<BR>
wars between member states and Imperial intervention in<BR>
local affairs).  Likewise, there are effectively no<BR>
restrictions on small arms used in wars between any of the<BR>
major powers.  <BR>
<BR>
Rather, restrictions on weapons look at issues of<BR>
ecological, population, and infrastructure damage.  The<BR>
sources of these restrictions are either treaties or other<BR>
understandings between major powers or internal policies of<BR>
the major powers.  <BR>
<BR>
In my Traveller universe, e.g., the Imperium has more or<BR>
less formal agreements in place with the Solomani<BR>
Confederation, the Aslan Hierate, the Zhodani Consulate,<BR>
and some of the Vargr entities to refrain from using<BR>
weapons of mass destruction on each other's civilian<BR>
populations.  The agreements are largely held in place by<BR>
fear, which in this context is a just rough word for mutual<BR>
respect.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:09:25 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Online Gamers Sought - Entropic Wars<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 1:42:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< At 07:31 05/07/00 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
 >I am trying to organize a pbem campaign online. It is set in the Classic <BR>
 >Traveller/ GURPS Traveller universe in the year 1120. The campaign focuses<BR>
 on <BR>
 >the strategic and tactical considerations of a war fought between the <BR>
 >Darrians and the Sword Worlds over the Entropic Worlds (Querion Subsector <BR>
of <BR>
 >the Spinward Marches). I have all versions of Traveller with the exception<BR>
 of <BR>
 >New Era and will probably use bits and pieces of all of them as <BR>
appropriate. <BR>
 <BR>
 Tentitive interest shown...how will the actual mechanics work?<BR>
 <BR>
 Stephen<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE ENTROPIC WARS PLAY-BY-EMAIL CAMPAIGN<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
INTRODUCTARY LETTER<BR>
<BR>
The referee's intent is to use Classic Traveller supplemented by other <BR>
published Traveller role-playing game and war game rules to provide the <BR>
player(s) with information to make battle decisions. The referee's objective <BR>
is provide players with information to make game decisions without getting <BR>
bogged down in overly complicated rules of play.  All campaign action will be <BR>
based on what can occur in the Traveller universe within one month's time.  <BR>
Success or failure will be determined through the use of assets to collect <BR>
information about the play environment. <BR>
<BR>
The Entropic Wars PBEM Campaign is an amateur fan game being played over the <BR>
Internet for the sole enjoyment of Traveller universe by its participants. <BR>
The content of the written material generated by the campaign is for private, <BR>
non-commercial use. Traveller and MegaTraveller are the copyright protected <BR>
property of Far Future Enterprises. GURPS Traveller is the copyright <BR>
protected property of Steve Jackson Games. Various Traveller related software <BR>
programs are used in the generation of game data for this campaign. All <BR>
programs used are considered shareware and were obtained at no cost off the <BR>
Internet. Special thanks to Stuart Ferris and Tom Bont, Traveller Software <BR>
creators.   <BR>
<BR>
The Traveller game year the campaign begins in is 1120. The Entropic Worlds <BR>
are a small cluster of four worlds located in the Querion Subsector of the <BR>
Spinward Marches. The campaign focuses on the political intrigue and military <BR>
actions surrounding the occupation of these four worlds by forces of the <BR>
Darrian Confederation and the Sword Worlds. <BR>
<BR>
Players will control a key character involved in the evolution of Entropic <BR>
Worlds War. The players through their character will make decisions on the <BR>
deployment and use of tactical assets. The focus of the game will be the <BR>
collection, analysis, and use of tactical information to place assets in the <BR>
combat environment of the game to obtain strategic objectives with the goal <BR>
of control of the Entropic Worlds cluster. Players will be able to obtain <BR>
tactical information through the placement of referee provided computer <BR>
generated non-player characters (npcs) or military units.  <BR>
<BR>
For simplicity, the Classic Traveller character format will be employed in <BR>
the campaign. To ensure fairness, characters and npcs will be limited to a <BR>
number of skill levels equal to the sum of their Universal Personality <BR>
Profile's Intelligence and Education scores as per "The Traveller Book," <BR>
published by Game Designers' Workshop, 1982, page 29. This rule does not <BR>
appear in "Book 1: Characters and Combat, Second Edition," published by Game <BR>
Designers' Workshop, 1981, but was adopted for MegaTraveller when it was <BR>
published. If the player wishes to use Marc Miller's Traveller (T4) this same <BR>
restriction will apply even though it is not part of that system's normal <BR>
character creation procedure to ensure player character and npc <BR>
compatibility. Once characters are approved for use in the campaign, <BR>
character UPP attributes and skills will not be permitted to be altered. <BR>
GURPS was initially considered for this campaign for the rules of choice, but <BR>
as the planning for the campaign developed the Classic Traveller rules <BR>
emerged as the favored rules version most usable due to its simplicity. <BR>
Characters, ships, and military units generated using the GURPS: Traveller <BR>
rules system can be submitted to the referee as background or informational <BR>
entries only.  Actual game decisions will be based on Classic Traveller <BR>
formatted data.       <BR>
<BR>
Planetary assets will be generated by the "Heaven and Earth" program recently <BR>
released by Stuart Ferris on the Internet and provided to the players in text <BR>
format for use in play. Assets to be provided by the referee will include <BR>
economic, military (army), and naval units and/or information. The focus of <BR>
this campaign is NOT economic. The referee will make all decisions on order <BR>
of battle and replacement and assets will be reissued to the player based <BR>
primarily on story line development. Unit descriptions will adhere to <BR>
Traveller books 4 and 5 (Mercenary and High Guard) for simplicity. The focus <BR>
of play is the determination of enemy movement and employment - not building <BR>
a better unit or ship. Players may submit their own unit descriptions and <BR>
Universal Ship Profiles for approval and use if they are within the <BR>
parameters established by the assets assigned them by the referee. <BR>
<BR>
The campaign turns will be monthly. Players will have their turn submitted to <BR>
the referee by the 1st of the month. The referee will have turn responses <BR>
returned by the 15th of each month. Turns can be modified, adjusted, or <BR>
otherwise altered on a by need basis by either player or referee through <BR>
email correspondence. One situation that will require numerous email messages <BR>
will be the resolution of battles. Player generated orders or instructions <BR>
for their units engaged will determine combat outcome. When appropriate, the <BR>
abstract combat system outlined in "Traveller Book 4: Mercenary" will be <BR>
used. The referee based on the written instructions from the players will <BR>
resolve both naval and military battles. The referee will provide player <BR>
preparation information (battle formation step in High Guard) prior to the <BR>
battle being engaged. Exception to this procedure will be special surprise <BR>
attacks if the attacking play can place assets without detection prior to the <BR>
battle being engaged. (That will be done exclusively through role-play.) <BR>
Email exchanges between the referee and combatants will continue until the <BR>
battle is completed. If a player fails to respond within a reasonable <BR>
mutually established time his/her units will be withdrawn by the referee from <BR>
the combat with the remaining player permitted the option of one additional <BR>
attack to inflict damage on the withdrawing unit. Units that can not withdraw <BR>
will be assumed captured. <BR>
<BR>
It is assumed that player characters will not be involved in personal combat <BR>
during large-scale military or naval operations. If the situation arises for <BR>
personal combat during role-play, players will be consulted by the referee <BR>
through correspondence, then the characters' "party" will simply exchange <BR>
blows until one character is subdued or fails a morale check as outlined in <BR>
Book 1. Characters involved in personal combat will be randomly matched with <BR>
an opponent. Weapons choice and "tactical orders" will be determined through <BR>
correspondence with the defending player prior to combat if no surprise is <BR>
achieved by the attacking player. In personal combat where a player does not <BR>
respond to the correspondence within a reasonably mutually established time <BR>
will considered to be captured. Combat between npcs will not be role-played <BR>
out with the players. The interested player will be informed of the results <BR>
of combat between controlled npcs and hostile npcs if that information would <BR>
be available in normal circumstances. If a npc or unit comes up missing and <BR>
there is not plan or procedure in place to detect an attack on that npc or <BR>
unit the player will have to investigate using more assets. For example, if a <BR>
scout ship is dispatched and does not report back at the designated time - <BR>
the referee will not divulge information until the appropriate assets are <BR>
deployed to investigate. <BR>
<BR>
Turn procedure will consist of exchanged correspondence between the players <BR>
and the referee. The referee will assume the players' turns are submitted by <BR>
the 1st of each month, real time. The referee will prepare a response to be <BR>
returned to the players by the 15th of the month. Players and referee are <BR>
able to modify the monthly turn as often as necessary within reason. Players <BR>
will provide the referee with instructions for all units and npcs directly <BR>
under the players' control. Npcs will carry out the instructions as <BR>
determined by reaction rolls and leadership of the player character. Npc <BR>
reaction will be reported by correspondence in a narrative format. The player <BR>
will not be told the exact reaction roll number. Current reaction rolls will <BR>
be maintained and recorded by the referee to ensure consistency. <BR>
<BR>
The referee upon the player joining the campaign will provide initial player <BR>
location and assets. The referee is anticipating no more than four to six <BR>
players for this campaign. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I hope this is what you were asking for. :) <BR>
<BR>
By the way, I am a retired operations sergeant from the US Army, that started <BR>
out in the US Navy as a submariner over 20 years ago. Traveller was my first <BR>
and best role-playing experience. I am overjoyed at this apparent revival of <BR>
one of gamings best efforts. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:09:24 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
On 07/05/00 at 08:15 PM,  newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk) said:<BR>
<BR>
>   Man, I hate to ask these kind of questions....<BR>
<BR>
>   Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's. Friends<BR>
>are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads of old CT<BR>
>stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
>   Here is the question...<BR>
<BR>
>   What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  Sorry, but this question keeps coming up.  Somebody ought'a<BR>
write a faq..."What books do I need to play Traveller under xyz?"<BR>
<BR>
>   Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
<BR>
1.  _GURPS Basic_ (you can get by at first with the free _GURPS<BR>
Lite_+and every player should have at least a copy of the Lite)<BR>
<BR>
2.  If I was you I'd get _GURPS Traveller_, too, even if you have a<BR>
lot of CT stuff.  There are things in there, templates, ship design<BR>
and combat systems, that you probably need if you're running a GT<BR>
game.<BR>
<BR>
I'm a minimalist, so IMO, that's *it* for essential books.  Those<BR>
two and your CT books will cover what you need.  OTOH, there are<BR>
lots and lots of optional books.<BR>
<BR>
If you're running a Merchant game get _Far Trader_ and Starports.<BR>
Heck, I'd say they are *almost*, but not quite essential.<BR>
<BR>
If you're running a Merc game get _Star Mercs_, but *don't* use the<BR>
Commando Battledress.<BR>
<BR>
If you're running a game in the Spinward Marches, and don't have the<BR>
old CT books, (or even if you do) you can a lot of use out of<BR>
_Behind the Claw_.<BR>
<BR>
All the Alien Races books are good, but not required. <BR>
<BR>
_First In_ is the GT version of Book 6 and _World Builder's<BR>
Handbook_.  Personally, I prefer the older combo, but not everyone<BR>
has it.<BR>
<BR>
_Space_ and _Vehicles_ are good addons, especially if you want to<BR>
build things. <BR>
<BR>
As for software...I only have one suggestion, Heaven & Earth by<BR>
Stuart Ferris.<BR>
<BR>
Heaven & Earth is good for detailing worlds and systems, and free.<BR>
Get it at Downport.com<BR>
<BR>
I know there are vehicle and character software around, but I don't<BR>
have any of it so I can't comment. <BR>
<BR>
I don't know of *any* _Far Trader_ software.  I'd like to hear about<BR>
it if any is out there.<BR>
<BR>
>   Sorry for the "newby" type question. Everyone has to start (or in my<BR>
>case, restart) somewhere...<BR>
<BR>
That's okay.  We don't mind newby questions here...at least *most*<BR>
of us don't. <g> <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:20:18 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 4:13:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, newbomb@home.com <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
    Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's.<BR>
 Friends are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads<BR>
 of old CT stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller. <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
Same thing is happening to me. Fortunately I already had the core GURPS <BR>
books. But you need the Basic Rules, and I would suggest the GURPS Traveller <BR>
Book. The others are usable for either CT or GT as source books. Each of the <BR>
Traveller source books provides additional character templates, and equipment <BR>
unique to the book's theme. I'm refereeing a GURPS Traveller game now for my <BR>
local play group and start a CT pbem campaign. Ain't if great the Game is <BR>
back? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:29:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
><BR>
>The fact is, and I think Ian Hogg has written extensively <BR>
>on this, small arm have reached a plateau.  And it is <BR>
>going to take a hell of a lot of money to bring in the <BR>
>'next step', whatever that is.<BR>
<BR>
I think Marc & Loren were fairly prescient on this subject.<BR>
 Their ACR is a long way beyond what was being tested then.<BR>
 Will the "next step" be Light Assault Gun?  Laser carbine?<BR>
 Advanced Combat Rifle firing HE?  Gauss rifle?  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
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http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:35:20 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>The body bunker is up to 390 kilos.<BR>
<BR>
Grav is off and you're in battle dress, so it's still<BR>
pretty manageable.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:34:25 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
On 07/05/00 at 04:53 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Well, my experience in NY was that you sit and wait to be called. When<BR>
>you're called, you go to a smaller room, and fill out a questionnaire,<BR>
>and sit and wait some more...<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
I live in a much more rural area and have been called for jury duty<BR>
four times.  Here's my experience...<BR>
<BR>
You get a letter that tells you to call a phone number to see if<BR>
there are any cases that need juries, and if you should report the<BR>
following day. Twice there weren't. Twice there were.<BR>
<BR>
If you have to report, you and a lot of other people go into a large<BR>
room at the courthouse at 8 am where you receive a questionaire to<BR>
fill out, get a lecture from the Clerk of the Court about jury<BR>
selection and see a video about court proceedure.  Then the clerk<BR>
takes the questionaires and leaves.  A few minutes later ballifs<BR>
start coming in and calling out names.  When your name is called you<BR>
go with the ballif to a courtroom where you wait to be called in.<BR>
<BR>
When your group is called in, you sit in the audience area and a<BR>
lawyer gives a brief description of the case, including the names of<BR>
the interested parties (judge, lawyers, plantifs, defendents, etc),<BR>
and the judge asks if anyone doesn't think they can give a fair an<BR>
unbiased judgement in the case or if they have a good reason not to<BR>
serve on this jury.  If anyone raises their hand, the judge asks<BR>
"why" and depending on what they say either excuses them, ignores<BR>
them, gives them a lecture about civic responsibility, or takes them<BR>
into chambers (along with the lawyers) for a private conversation<BR>
while everyone waits.<BR>
<BR>
Next the lawyers have a chance to ask questions and challenge any<BR>
potential juror up to some limit that I don't know.  Some questions<BR>
are to the entire group.  Some are to specific jurors in public.<BR>
Again some jurors may be taken into Chambers for private<BR>
questioning.  As the jurors are challenged they leave and go back to<BR>
the first room.  Eventually, jurors and alternates are selected and<BR>
every one else is excused and goes back to the first room.<BR>
<BR>
At that point, you could be taken to another courtroom for another<BR>
selection process, and even have to come back the next day if<BR>
needed.  However, everytime I've been called, there were many more<BR>
jurors than needed and everyone who didn't get put on a jury the<BR>
first day was sent home at lunch, and told to call back after 4 pm<BR>
to see if they should come back the next day.  In each case, the<BR>
message was you don't need to come back.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:51:52 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
> On 07/05/00 at 04:53 PM,  Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Well, my experience in NY was that you sit and wait to be called. When<BR>
> >you're called, you go to a smaller room, and fill out a questionnaire,<BR>
> >and sit and wait some more...<BR>
> <BR>
> <snip><BR>
> <BR>
> I live in a much more rural area and have been called for jury duty<BR>
> four times.  Here's my experience...<BR>
> <BR>
> You get a letter that tells you to call a phone number to see if<BR>
> there are any cases that need juries, and if you should report the<BR>
> following day. Twice there weren't. Twice there were.<BR>
<BR>
*snip*.  My experience up to here is similar.  However, they call you in if<BR>
they think they _might_ need jurors; the one time I did it they wound up<BR>
dismissing everyone who was called in, because the lawyers settled.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2723<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2724</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/5/00 4:59:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2724<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
RE: EMP weapons article<BR>
RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
RE:  Guns in Games <BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
Re: Archives<BR>
Re: Auth Thau<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:52:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I think Marc & Loren were fairly prescient on this subject.<BR>
>  Their ACR is a long way beyond what was being tested then.<BR>
<BR>
In the wrong direction.  The ACR has heavy ammunition and low ammo capacity,<BR>
which isn't the direction smallarms are going.<BR>
<BR>
>  Will the "next step" be Light Assault Gun?  Laser carbine?<BR>
>  Advanced Combat Rifle firing HE?  Gauss rifle?<BR>
<BR>
Without a breakthrough in body armor, the AR is fine for the immediate future;<BR>
the most likely additions would be things that up hit probability (burst fire,<BR>
stabilization, computerized sights).  Lighter ammo would be nice, if heat<BR>
and manufacturing problems with caseless rounds can be solved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:23:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: EMP weapons article<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we can get the Familie Spofulam to organise us to build a _real_<BR>
flux compressor and knock out the tax system computers <g>.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: 04 July 2000 19:07<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com; sfconsim-l@onelist.com;<BR>
> bits@bits.org.uk; snakebite@halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk;<BR>
> andy.slack@gb.unisys.com<BR>
> Subject: EMP weapons article<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Take a gander at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_224520.html<BR>
><BR>
> It's a New Scientist article on the use of EMP weapons which may be<BR>
> of interest. Personnly, it'd be nice to see some of this as an<BR>
> article for Traveller's Fire, Fusion and Steel Rules. ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> There are also a number of further reading links.<BR>
><BR>
> Enjoy,<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
> "We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
> can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
> http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:25:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<Blushing at memories> Remember...Ben Aaronovitch...Daleks...several<BR>
of the BBC books. Not a minor member of the staff. In fact, I'd like<BR>
his autograph.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: 04 July 2000 09:00<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 06:25 AM 7/4/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I remember being very impressed when working on Doctor<BR>
> >Who that the costume designer spent 2 days (a major<BR>
> >investment considering the cheapness of the prog)<BR>
> >researching the insignia for the RAF Regiment.<BR>
><BR>
> "when working on Doctor Who"?<BR>
><BR>
> *blink*<BR>
><BR>
> Tell me more..<BR>
><BR>
> Doug Berry<BR>
> Past President for Life, the Legion of Rassilon<BR>
> gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Guns in Games <BR>
<BR>
Rob Dean wrote:<BR>
>By the way, on the spin-offs of this topic--am I the only <BR>
>one who hasn't run a campaign that was firearms heavy?<BR>
<BR>
I can't say I've run a firearms _heavy_ campaign, but most<BR>
of time all the PCs in my campaigns feel like they need<BR>
some guns around to help assuage the overall atmosphere of<BR>
paranoia.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:09:03 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
><BR>
> on 7/4/00 4:05 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> Ian, I want you to know I'm saving all these for potential future use.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Thank you.<BR>
<BR>
Note to the rest of the audience : I am very praise-centered. I like<BR>
recognition. I need more good things in my life right now.<BR>
<BR>
> This one reminds me of our battle ball, specifically designed for a race<BR>
of<BR>
> rodent-derived sophonts.  Ball was an armored sphere designed to fit<BR>
though<BR>
> a standard hatch.  Guns and stuff in all the appropriate places.<BR>
><BR>
> Question.  If high AV's end up massing so much, how can you get effective<BR>
> body armor.  It seems to be impossible to have any non-powered armor that<BR>
> can stand up to hand carried small arms, and Powered suits would have<BR>
> obscene masses.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Well, the FS Light Plasma Gun is hand-carried, and I guess you could build a<BR>
magazine-fed PuRSe system (500 gram 'shells' implies a 4.4 or so kilo<BR>
magazine of 6, so the total weapon should come in at under 8 kilos,<BR>
including a stock and stuff). These have truly obscene penetration.<BR>
<BR>
Now, you also have the problem of cluster bomblets.<BR>
<BR>
OK, so TL5 hard steel is toughness 2.86 for a density of 8 t/m3. TL8 Comp<BR>
Lam is toughness 8.57, also for 8 t/m3. However, TL12 Superdense sees a<BR>
small improvement, to toughness 20 for 15 tons. 20% in 4 TLs is pretty sad.<BR>
<BR>
You need to jump to TL15 Enhanced Bonded Superdense to get another 3 fold<BR>
jump (to 47.1 for density 15 t/m3).<BR>
<BR>
OK, so building splinter-proof body armour is pretty simple. In the last<BR>
century, the majority of combat casualties have been caused by shrapnel. I<BR>
think this will become less true as TLs go up.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is represented by Crunch Guns of various descriptions. Can I get<BR>
an opinion from someone who has fired an Anti-Tank Rifle (Boys ATR, Crunch<BR>
Gun, whatever) - could they be effectively used by infantry as a main weapon<BR>
? Including in anti-personell roles (I guess with the heavier ammo, you'd<BR>
get less suppression fire and more aimed shots). Can someone who actually<BR>
understands the CPR gun rules in FFS2 build me a TL9 Crunch Gun ?<BR>
<BR>
Now, if we make armour more effective, then tanks get more armoured, and<BR>
grav technology keeps bricks far more mobile (none of those ugly ground<BR>
pressure issues for a start). This makes infantry even less useful - shaped<BR>
charge weapons are countered by Point Defense, and man-portable plasma guns<BR>
dont have that much crunch power (concealed emplaced weapons OTOH may be<BR>
enough of an equaliser).<BR>
<BR>
(Think of this as a sidebar : The traditional view is that with grav<BR>
technology, you get an increase in vehicle masses that is, well, massive. As<BR>
I build toys like the TL10 D gun, I get less sure of this - basically, I<BR>
dont think you can build a tank that can take a D gun impact to the front<BR>
armour. Thus, armoured vehicles would explicitly get recognised as attrition<BR>
units, and get smaller and lighter.<BR>
<BR>
The flip side is that it is relatively simple to build something that is<BR>
proof against anything infantry can carry, excepting Californium rounds<BR>
(which have their own issues). End of sidebar).<BR>
<BR>
> I take it that FFS2 pretty much rules out combat armor or battle dress.<BR>
I'm<BR>
> really getting discouraged.  How's a soft, pink soph supposed to have any<BR>
> chance of surviving combat?<BR>
<BR>
Dont be seen. Attack them from ambush. Then withdraw.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, and operate with cover from enemy artillery from Area Defense<BR>
Weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Soft, pink sophs need to rely on the fact that they put out a lot less watts<BR>
than hard, metallic monsters. This makes them harder to see.<BR>
<BR>
The sophs have to rely on tactical surprise, and to make the first shot<BR>
count.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I'd like to see FFS3, as well.  Provided they make some corrections.<BR>
<BR>
I dunno. Maybe if we allowed 'excellent quality' armour for double the<BR>
factor and 10 times the cost.<BR>
<BR>
Even then, you still need 5mm of TL8 Ceramics or 4mm of TL12 Superdense to<BR>
stop a FS Light Plasma Gun.<BR>
<BR>
I cant see an un-augmented grunt wearing 5mm of Ceramics.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:26:45 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
<BR>
One of my offlist contacts, Rob Prior asked me:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm trying to calculate the scale of the Rafm Traveller starship<BR>
>miniatures, and am getting screwy results.  Does anyone have the answer?<BR>
<BR>
Anyone know the answer?<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:13:24 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
At 20:21 -0400 4/7/00,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>So if I understand this correctly, there is no hope of injuring someone<BR>
>wearing CES with a rifle,  i.e. a rifle is a 4D weapon in T4, and CES has a<BR>
>AV rated at 5 flexible.  The best one can do is 4 (all three die reduced to<BR>
>ones).  Even if I use my .458 elephant rifle, a gun that can send a 32 gram<BR>
>monolithic solid out at 730 m/sec and pierce a 75 cm thick elephant skull,<BR>
>the best I can hope for is 10 points of damage?! I've personally put these<BR>
>rounds through an automotive engine block.<BR>
<BR>
Consider p58 of T4 - Increased damage attacks. By taking a negative <BR>
DM (which should really by a task level change IMO) You can increase <BR>
damage. -5DM gives x2, -9DM gives x3. Ref decides if armour protects, <BR>
if it does it is applied before damage is calculated.<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind that 10 points of damage will put an average character <BR>
down and unconscious on the first hit.<BR>
<BR>
>I don't know T4 well, so I pull the books (Basic book and "Emperors<BR>
>arsenal").  Most illuminating. I am trying to figure out what TL10 weapons<BR>
>one uses against ABD-10.  A TL10 sniper rifle is only 6D, and given each AV<BR>
>of rigid armor nullifies id D of damage, I see that the sniper rifle is<BR>
>totally useless against ABD-10. Grenades do 8, so there's some potential (1D<BR>
>damage not soaked up by armor).  I'm getting depressed<BR>
<BR>
Note also that concussive damage is not effected by armour unless <BR>
fully sealed for pressure. And that the damage is not limited to 3D. <BR>
So a 8C hit against non-sealed 7R battledress would do 8D6 which will <BR>
drop the average character. Armour is pretty effective though. A PCMP <BR>
will kill battledress though. I wouldn't expect a grenade or sniper <BR>
rifle to do this.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that there is more on explosive use in EA, and explosives are <BR>
nasty in ACQ. But I've got to dash just now...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:29:08 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Todd Langstaff wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
> in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
> think the idea of taking over a ship by boading is a<BR>
> romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
> movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
> weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
<BR>
The capture of _U-505_ by US destroyer escorts _Chatelain_ and<BR>
_Pillsbury_ on 4 June 1944 has already been mentioned.  Admiral Morison,<BR>
the official US Navy historian of World War II, tells of one other<BR>
boarding attempt:<BR>
<BR>
"[USS _Buckley_] opened fire on the U-boat [_U-66] in moonlight, at 0320<BR>
May 6 [1944], closed and rammed.  There then ensued a hand-to-hand<BR>
battle like _Borie's_.*  Several of the German submariners attempted,<BR>
1812 fashion, to board the destroyer.  [_Buckley_ commander LtCdr]<BR>
Abel's merry men repelled them with small arms, shell cases, coffee cups<BR>
and bare fists in a brawl lasting several minutes."  _U-66_ eventually<BR>
got free and attempted to flee, but soon sank, leaving 36 survivors. <BR>
(Morison, _The Two-Ocean War_, page 375)<BR>
<BR>
*This refers to an earlier action, on 1 November 1943, involving the<BR>
destroyer USS _Borie_ and _U-405_.  The two vessels were "locked in<BR>
deadly embrace, one under the other, for ten minutes (ibid., page<BR>
371)."  Morison describes a "melee," but doesn't mention any attempt by<BR>
either crew to board the enemy vessel.  Both _Borie_ and _U-405_ were<BR>
lost during the engagement (ibid., page 372-373).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:51:13 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> One of my offlist contacts, Rob Prior asked me:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I'm trying to calculate the scale of the Rafm Traveller starship<BR>
> >miniatures, and am getting screwy results.  Does anyone have the answer?<BR>
> <BR>
> Anyone know the answer?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that there isn't a consistent answer, at least for the minis<BR>
that were released for TNE.  I've seen several of them in their new<BR>
incarnation as _Silent Death_ miniatures; IIRC, they were all of roughly<BR>
similar size.  This would make them more aesthetically pleasing, but<BR>
less consistently to scale.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:56:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Archives<BR>
<BR>
Rob, your files are on my web site at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/other_vehicles.html<BR>
<BR>
These were off of the old Sunbane site; these are in POT format.<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Rob Dean writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >I must admit some sympathy for Vilani attitudes toward technology<BR>
> >lately.<BR>
> >The vehicle files have been stowed in an unreadable format on my work<BR>
> >computer and I finally lost them with my latest computer upgrade.  I<BR>
> >still<BR>
> >have my hardcopy books, though, which are also my only record of Scott's<BR>
> >work.  Are there still TML archives back to the beginning somewhere?<BR>
> <BR>
>  Several of us old-timers keep records, though mine have a few holes. Your<BR>
> posted designs were also webbed somewhere for a while, though I haven't<BR>
> checked recently.<BR>
> <BR>
> GC<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:05:32 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Auth Thau<BR>
<BR>
> Do you know what changes were made from the original (I thought it was <BR>
>  supposed to be a reprint)?<BR>
<BR>
I _think_ he just corrected some typos and added a bit here and there. <BR>
Frankly, I've never read either book (see this week's JTAS editorial for the <BR>
a glimpse at the reason).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:18:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
>From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
<BR>
>Currently Finland can field up to half a million men, <BR>
<BR>
Out of a total population of about 6 million?  Wow!  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:21:04 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Todd Langstaff <tlangsta@yahoo.ca><BR>
<BR>
>I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and am<BR>
>planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system.<BR>
>Has anyone else done this before?<BR>
<BR>
Well, a company called Game Designers' Workshop did exactly<BR>
that some years ago when they produced a product called<BR>
Traveller: The New Era.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:28:47 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
At 05:04 AM 07/05/2000, you wrote:<BR>
>Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > At 04:35 PM 07/04/2000, you wrote:<BR>
> > <snip><BR>
> > Jeff,<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I believe that you would like the magic rules "Authentic Thaumaturgy"<BR>
> > by P. Bonewitz, Steve Jackson Games has published it in the past. The<BR>
> > first Edition that I has very concise rules for magic(ie Law of<BR>
> > Contagion, Similarity, etc). I have not bought the edition by SJ Games<BR>
> > edition, yet. The edition I have has no game system bias at all. But I<BR>
> > believe that the one by SJ Games will have bias towards GURPS.<G><BR>
><BR>
>While some folks may find this book useful, IMHO Bonewits is a<BR>
>poor and somewhat silly occultist and an even worse game<BR>
>designer.  That book is full of just about everything that I find silly,<BR>
>unworkably, wretched, and ahistorical about the worse gaming<BR>
>magic, all in one slender but unreadable volume  He attempts to<BR>
>treat magic as some wacky form of technology, mixing physics<BR>
>and magic at random and yielding only useless mush.<BR>
<BR>
John,<BR>
<BR>
In original version of D&D the magic system was a crude attempt at <BR>
recreating the "Vancian" magic of Jack Vance's "Dying Earth Saga". How <BR>
close they got is still debated, even today.<G> All later versions of D&D <BR>
were built from this foundation of "Vancian" magic. Again different minds <BR>
produced variations of the original magic system.<BR>
<BR>
It was not even an attempt to bring out the features of "High" or "Low" <BR>
magic either current day use, or of earlier epochs usage. But many have <BR>
speculated as to why.<G><BR>
<BR>
The first edition of "Authentic Thaumaturgy" I have was most interesting <BR>
for myself, but a very good friend expressed a similar view of close to <BR>
yours. But then he is such a ceremonial practitioner that his rituals could <BR>
make the "Masonry" very envious/jealous.<G> But then I believe that <BR>
Bonewitz wrote that mainly for "Low" magic not "High".<BR>
<BR>
By the way I know of a Ethno-Anthropologist who is also practitioner, are <BR>
there more anthropologist's in the "Broom Closet" than people think?<G> One <BR>
part of his real job would be my idea of severe torture, transcribing <BR>
recorded info/histories from Native Americans, until it all precise and <BR>
exact. Ahhhgg, hit play, hit rewind, hit play, hit rewind, over and over... <BR>
the time it toke him to transcribe just 8 hours of history/info was <BR>
incredible, on the order of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
Sam Thomas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:29:55 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
>    Man, I hate to ask these kind of questions....<BR>
><BR>
>    Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's.<BR>
>Friends are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads<BR>
>of old CT stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>    Here is the question...<BR>
><BR>
>    What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
><BR>
>    Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You will need a copy of GURPS Basic and GURPS Traveller.  After that<BR>
you could actually do a half decent job with your CT material....<BR>
<BR>
If you want aliens you prob want to pick up the GURP Traveller Aliens<BR>
books.  The commerce rules in Far Trader are better than the ones<BR>
in CT, but you could use CT if you want.  Similarly the worlds<BR>
generation rules in First In are better but you could use CT<BR>
material.<BR>
<BR>
If your campaign is set in the Spinward Marches, Behind the Claw<BR>
is similar to the data in CT except that it has a brief description<BR>
of every world in the Marches.  For the Sol Rim the upcoming Rim<BR>
of Fire is similar except that it decided to give more high<BR>
level info, and more info on a few worlds, at the expense of<BR>
just giving basic data for other worlds.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:31:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Weren't there a couple of commando operations during WWII<BR>
>involving boarding?  Not classic boarding, to be sure, but<BR>
<BR>
>more SBS/Seal type actions<BR>
<BR>
These could be interesting in Traveller.  The target ship<BR>
is in orbit, maybe, and is being visited by tenders, supply<BR>
ships, etc., from the planet.  You and your team are aboard<BR>
one of them and get onto the targe ship for whatever your<BR>
objective is (rescue/sabotage/espionage/whatever).  Maybe<BR>
the target ship is at the high port or the naval base. <BR>
That's probably a more difficult situation -- but maybe<BR>
easier, if there are lots of workers coming on and going<BR>
off the ship.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:35:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Aside from Traveller and a visit to the local shooting <BR>
>establishment, when in the area, one must make a <BR>
>pilgrimage to Powell's 'city of books', which I am<BR>
>informed is the largest book store in the world in terms<BR>
>of total number of titles for sale.  For some of us, this <BR>
>alone is a reason to come to/live in the pacific northwest<BR>
>Mecca of moisture.<BR>
<BR>
I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
UFO Museum is next door to a nice little establishment<BR>
called as I recall Dimitrio's that serves very good ouzo<BR>
(on Burnside).  The Church is in the tourist neighborhood.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:45:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>And the nest defense is a good offense. "we'll just board <BR>
>them while boarding us. Besides, their ship looks cooler".<BR>
<BR>
I like it.  It can be a decidely uncivilized response to a<BR>
crime that has become tolerated by civilization.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:46:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I think Marc & Loren were fairly prescient on this subject.<BR>
>  Their ACR is a long way beyond what was being tested then.<BR>
>  Will the "next step" be Light Assault Gun?  Laser carbine?<BR>
>  Advanced Combat Rifle firing HE?  Gauss rifle?<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I always had my doubts about Traveller's ACR.  9mm HE doesn't seem like much<BR>
in terms of fragmentation.  The OICW has 20mm grenades, and they're barely<BR>
considered adequate.  Even with high tech explosives, there's just not much<BR>
metal to throw around. Now the gauss rifle, OTOH.  Now we've got something.<BR>
Interestingly, the gauss gun described is more like a classic EM coil gun.<BR>
Who in 1980 would have imagined we'd be using rail guns to shoot Lucite into<BR>
armor plate?<BR>
<BR>
And no one picked up on CAP (Electro-thermal) guns.  Hughes was shooting<BR>
5.56 bullets out of a modified M-16 barrel at 6000 fps back in '82, powered<BR>
by plasma-stimulated water!<BR>
<BR>
But the fact is that infantry small arms are way down on the procurement<BR>
totem-pole.  And we're likely to most of the changes there to be in<BR>
improving sighting, weapon-human interface and construction materials.  The<BR>
modern firearm is already an almost perfect, man-portable killing system, so<BR>
long is you can get the bullet to hit the target.  Changes for the next 50<BR>
years are probably going to be evolutionary, not revolutionary.  With<BR>
relatively minor changes, the rifle has not changed all that much in the<BR>
last 400 years.<BR>
<BR>
100 years from now, we may still be slinging metal bullets at each other,<BR>
powered by chemical combustion.  The gun may look funky, but the principle<BR>
will probably be understandable to any ancient harquebusier or musketeer.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:54:40 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
> Without a breakthrough in body armor, the AR is fine for the<BR>
> immediate future;<BR>
> the most likely additions would be things that up hit probability<BR>
> (burst fire,<BR>
> stabilization, computerized sights).  Lighter ammo would be nice, if heat<BR>
> and manufacturing problems with caseless rounds can be solved.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Caseless ammo sounds so great, but many just don't appreciate all the<BR>
wonders of the brass-cased cartridge.  Obturation:  the case seals the<BR>
breach so nicely.  Heat extraction:  Cook off can be a real problem with<BR>
caseless gun.  The G11 used not so much a propellant as an explosive, much<BR>
less sensitive to heat.  Mechanical protection.  The case does a lot to help<BR>
a cartridge stand up to mechanical abuse, not to mention weather and other<BR>
environmental factors.  Plus, linked belts of MG ammo look really cool.<BR>
Sorry, but a bandolier of plastic ammunition cassettes just isn't the same<BR>
("garret trooper --spit-shined boots and brasso'd ammo" Barry Sadler, IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
Maybe this will become one of those "back in my day..." things, like the<BR>
brown-boot army, or the khaki uniform (oops, I remember that one).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:58:04 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
> I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
> Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
> UFO Museum is next door to a nice little establishment<BR>
> called as I recall Dimitrio's that serves very good ouzo<BR>
> (on Burnside).  The Church is in the tourist neighborhood.<BR>
<BR>
Gotta watch that ouzo, though.  I hear that, after drinking ouzo, you<BR>
can't make a fist for a month. ;-)  (Anyone catch the reference?)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  As with Kipling, "potent potables" are _always_ on-topic. <BR>
However, here's a try at a more specific ObTrav.<BR>
<BR>
Given both the advances in biochemical engineering inherent in TL-15 and<BR>
the incredible variety of chemicals naturally produced by the flora of<BR>
11,000 worlds, there may well be beverages or drugs that, as either a<BR>
primary or side effect, inhibit (or excite) very specific muscle groups<BR>
in one or more races.  Imagine, for instance, how difficult it would be<BR>
to stage a proper barroom brawl when the local liquor has a minor<BR>
paralytic effect on leg muscles (just enough that patrons need to use<BR>
walkers, crutches, or handrails to get around for an hour or two after<BR>
imbibing).  Of course, the offworlder PCs may not _know_ about this<BR>
effect....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2724<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2725</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/5/00 6:19:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2725<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Guns in Games <BR>
RE: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Auth Thum<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
Re: EMP weapons article<BR>
Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: Guns in Games<BR>
RE: Guns in Games<BR>
RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
RE: Guns in Games<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2724<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
re: Getting restarted....<BR>
RE: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:00:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games <BR>
<BR>
> I can't say I've run a firearms _heavy_ campaign, but most<BR>
> of time all the PCs in my campaigns feel like they need<BR>
> some guns around to help assuage the overall atmosphere of<BR>
> paranoia.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I, Mr. Big Guns, have run a game where the most deadly weapon carried by a<BR>
PC was a sharpened butter knife.  And I had a character who dispatched a<BR>
master assassin with nothing more than a sharpened stick (OK, it was luck,<BR>
and it was also through the heart).  We frequently run political games,<BR>
where a sharp retort or vicious snub is the order of the day.<BR>
<BR>
But sometimes, you just have to break out the boom-booms and cut loose.  We<BR>
have characters who live to shoot the place up, and as one of my players<BR>
like's to say "My pack gets lighter as I go".<BR>
<BR>
Different strokes...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:06:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
> I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
> Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
<BR>
Hey, it's not just the Elvis museum, but y2K ready and a breast enlargement<BR>
clinic as well (I need to shoot a picture of the sign next time I'm down<BR>
town.) And it's also the home of the creepy Elvis impersonator that hangs<BR>
out by Saturday market.<BR>
<BR>
I only recently went into main Powell's, after their renovation (added three<BR>
more floors. Mein Gott!)I usually hit Powell's in Beaverton , or the<BR>
Powell's technical book store (Geek paradise).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:36:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:42 PM 7/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Glenn, Doug et al.  This goes for you all as well.  On the Portland OR area?<BR>
>>We game every Saturday night.  Modified CT.  If you're interested in<BR>
>>dropping in, just shoot me an email.  You can always read the game notes to<BR>
>>find out the current state of the game.  We publish these weekly on our web<BR>
>>site (http://www.travellercentral.com)<BR>
><BR>
> I am informed by reliable sources that Oregon experiences an odd phenomenon<BR>
> where frozen water actually piles up on the ground in cold, wet piles.  I<BR>
> prefer my water in the liquid form, and shall therefore remain safely in<BR>
> San Francisco, where it last snowed in 1976.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, <BR>
<BR>
*Oregon* experiences that. But it rarely happens in the Willamette<BR>
Valley. One of the things I miss after growing up in Spokane, where we<BR>
actually got *real* snow. <BR>
<BR>
In Portland, I can recall some "real snow". About 3-4 times in the last<BR>
25 years. Hell, the city shuts down when the snowfall isn't bad enough<BR>
to require *boots*.<BR>
<BR>
If I can walk around in ordinary shoes and not get them filled with<BR>
snow, that's not a "snowstorm", that's "light flurries". Maybe.<BR>
<BR>
What we've gotten rather more often (but still infrequenctly) are ice<BR>
storms. Now *those* can be a pain. Rain that freezes on impact gives<BR>
everything a coating of ice, and makes for problems.<BR>
<BR>
And in any case, remember that the climate is getting warmer. Back in<BR>
the 1920s, the Willamette froze thick enough to drive cars on. It's<BR>
unlikelly to do so in the foreseeable future. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:08:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  How successful would a similar tactic be if used by pirates.<BR>
> For example they intercept a passenger liner and fire all sorts of<BR>
> low-damage weaponry that overwhelms and panics the relatively "soft"<BR>
> liner crew, leading them to abandon ship or surrender?  A situation<BR>
> could evolve where the PCs realize what is going on and either have<BR>
> to convince the captain to continue to escape and evade, or take the<BR>
> fight to the pirates themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, as has been noted in the "realistic space battles" thread in<BR>
rec.arts.sf.science, disabling a ship without destroying it may turn<BR>
out to be fairly simple. And a couple of the more recent versions of<BR>
Traveller even allow for it if the playes and GM are willing to *use*<BR>
them that way.<BR>
<BR>
You see, in space your biggest problem is getting rid of excess heat. A<BR>
spacecraft makes an excellent "thermos bottle", because of the vacuum<BR>
surrounding it. <BR>
<BR>
This means that real spacecraft with high energy weapons or high power<BR>
drives will need *huge* heat radiators. FF&S 2 dealt with this to some<BR>
extent, though the size of the radiators was greatly reduced to keep<BR>
the ships looking *something* like what players (and GMs) tend to<BR>
expect, rather than being a small part in the huge radiator panel.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, because of the need for radiator surfaces, the ship can be<BR>
disabled without serious damage simply by either knocking out the<BR>
radiators (or significant portions of them) or by using an *unfocused*<BR>
beam laser to dump heat into the radiators and the ship. <BR>
<BR>
That will result in the ship getting quite hot, quite rapidly. And<BR>
using weapons, drives, etc will only make things worse. <BR>
<BR>
Crewbeing: "It's up to 50 C, sir. And if we don't cut the drive, we'll<BR>
            be above 100 in less than an hour."<BR>
<BR>
Passenger: "Why don't you try shooting back!?"<BR>
<BR>
  Captain: "Because if we do, we'll hit 100 in about 10 *minutes*. If<BR>
            we kept firing, the ship would be unlivable long before we<BR>
            did significant damage to them. And we might just annoy<BR>
	    them enough to let us fry before they boarded."<BR>
<BR>
  Captain: "Communications, signal our surrender."<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, it's *possible* to survive *air* temps in the 250 C range for<BR>
an hour or so, if you've got *lots* of water, and are wearing loose<BR>
fitting (or *no*) clothing. This was determined in a study the USAF did<BR>
back in the 50s. One of the volunteers got a nasty burn under the<BR>
sweatband he was wearing...<BR>
<BR>
Also, you have this problem with all your LH2 boiling away and having<BR>
to vent it to space. You won't get far without fuel.<BR>
<BR>
So, it's *possible* to force surrender without damaging the target. You<BR>
just need a powerful laser (or PAW) and need to get the jump on the<BR>
target. They can't radiate heat on the side facing you as long as the<BR>
effective temp of the beam is above the temp the radiators work at.<BR>
<BR>
Now we know why folks don't just use pulse lasers and ignore beam<BR>
lasers. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:44:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Auth Thum<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 7/5/00 7:56:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
>>  Subject: Auth Thau<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  > Ever take a look at "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by Bonewits? I haven't<BR>
>>  >  checked out the new GURPS version, but the older version *was* an<BR>
>>  >  attempt to balance real magical practice against game needs.<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  Our edition has nothing to do with GURPS - it is merely a revision by <BR>
>>  Bonewits to his original work, and is usable with al game systems.<BR>
><BR>
> Do you know what changes were made from the original (I thought it was <BR>
> supposed to be a reprint)?<BR>
<BR>
Given that the original was about the size of the "Little Black Books",<BR>
if somewhat thicker, it *has* to have been *seriously* expanded.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:51:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net> wrote: <BR>
>> <BR>
>>> I believe that you would like the magic rules "Authentic Thaumaturgy"<BR>
>>> by P. Bonewitz, Steve Jackson Games has published it in the past. The<BR>
>>> first Edition that I has very concise rules for magic(ie Law of<BR>
>>> Contagion, Similarity, etc). I have not bought the edition by SJ Games<BR>
>>> edition, yet. The edition I have has no game system bias at all. But I<BR>
>>> believe that the one by SJ Games will have bias towards GURPS.<G><BR>
>> <BR>
>> While some folks may find this book useful, IMHO Bonewits is a <BR>
>> poor and somewhat silly occultist and an even worse game <BR>
>> designer.  That book is full of just about everything that I find silly, <BR>
>> unworkably, wretched, and ahistorical about the worse gaming <BR>
>> magic, all in one slender but unreadable volume  He attempts to <BR>
>> treat magic as some wacky form of technology, mixing physics <BR>
>> and magic at random and yielding only useless mush.<BR>
>> <BR>
> I thought it was a lousy game design, but I didn't think he was that bad<BR>
> on the magickal side.  Then again, it's been many a year since I looked at<BR>
> Authentic Thaumaturgy-- I read the book "Real Magic" and I find it to be<BR>
> pretty okay in terms of theory as to why some forms of magick MIGHT work,<BR>
> and I may be confusing them. <BR>
<BR>
I've got both, and I do disagree with Bonewits on various things. But<BR>
"Real Magic" is a nice "overview" as long as you keep in mind the<BR>
authors (fairly obvious) biases. And the picture of his diploma on the<BR>
back is a hoot (He manage to get the University of California to give<BR>
him a BA in Magic. And it's even funnier because you can make out the<BR>
signtature of the Governor of California on it. One "Ronalad Reagan".<BR>
:-)<BR>
<BR>
The general system proposed in "Authentic Thaumaturgy" was ok. Some of<BR>
the specifics I disagree with. For example, I consider "magic" and<BR>
"psi" to be different things. Bonewits doesn't.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 16:56:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
><BR>
>>The body bunker is up to 390 kilos.<BR>
><BR>
> Grav is off and you're in battle dress, so it's still<BR>
> pretty manageable.<BR>
<BR>
Hardly. That's over a third of a ton *mass*. <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't *weigh* anything, but it's still hard as hell to *get*<BR>
moving, and just as hard to *stop*. <BR>
<BR>
Weight is gone. Inertia is still there.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:01:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
>>ObTrav:  Of the many cultures within the Imperium, I assume the Aussie way<BR>
>>of law and courts, and juries apply somewhere, as well as exotic ones<BR>
>>totally alien to my way of thinking, so I am really interested in such<BR>
>>things both in a game sense, and in real life.  As an aid to model other<BR>
>>forms, I'd like to hear how the U.S. works their jury selection (how jurors<BR>
>>are chosen to start, and then how they are empanelled), as well as how the<BR>
>>English (I'm assuming something similar to Oz?), and any other nationalities<BR>
>>do theirs (I believe we have Germans and Dutch on the list, and more...).<BR>
>>Anyone else care to add something to this?<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that in some places and times, they assembled a jury<BR>
by sending the bailiffs out on the street and grabbing the first few<BR>
dozen people they ran into. Often they'd step into a bar or saloon and<BR>
grab folks from there. <BR>
<BR>
On low pop worlds this might be the process used to get the initial<BR>
pool. But I expect that challenges and the like would still be used in<BR>
many cases.<BR>
<BR>
And picture worlds that care more about the "of his peers" bit. They<BR>
are trying a crewman off a starship, so they just grab crewmen at<BR>
random from Startown for the jury pool. Or maybe go for a 50/50 mix of<BR>
locals and crewmen.<BR>
<BR>
I can actually see that working rather well. After all, the ship crew<BR>
types will *know* if the guy is trying to BS the locals. and as long as<BR>
they aren't from his ship (or another ship from the same corporation)<BR>
the only "sympathy" will be of the "there but for the grace of God"<BR>
type.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. Given "veridicator" type tech to ensure that the *jurors* give<BR>
their honest opinions, I can see a "jury of his peers" being a *bad*<BR>
thing for a "professional" crook. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:11:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: EMP weapons article<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Maybe we can get the Familie Spofulam to organise us to build a _real_<BR>
> flux compressor and knock out the tax system computers <g>.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I just remembered what bothered me about our resident medico's<BR>
post.  <BR>
<BR>
The stuff I recall from years back was that they used an explosive<BR>
charge to *implode* the coil, which concentrated the flux lines because<BR>
with properly shaped charges, the coil tended to remain sufficiently<BR>
intact until it was too late to matter, And the core was definitely<BR>
intact, but compressed all to heck.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:17:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
> Given both the advances in biochemical engineering inherent in TL-15 and<BR>
> the incredible variety of chemicals naturally produced by the flora of<BR>
> 11,000 worlds, there may well be beverages or drugs that, as either a<BR>
> primary or side effect, inhibit (or excite) very specific muscle groups<BR>
> in one or more races.  Imagine, for instance, how difficult it would be<BR>
> to stage a proper barroom brawl when the local liquor has a minor<BR>
> paralytic effect on leg muscles (just enough that patrons need to use<BR>
> walkers, crutches, or handrails to get around for an hour or two after<BR>
> imbibing).  Of course, the offworlder PCs may not _know_ about this<BR>
> effect....<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I'm regretting that I pointed my players to the TML.  This one definitely<BR>
goes into the 'keepers' file for later.  We've had a few unusual libations<BR>
show up.  Tralya, a warm golden liquor that makes you feel like you're<BR>
floating on a pink, fluffy cloud with the warm sun on your fur (interesting,<BR>
if you don't have fur).<BR>
<BR>
Vargr beer, which IMTU is a thick stout type brew with chunks, that is<BR>
reputed to be able to wrestle a weak drinker to the ground by itself.<BR>
Pikhan 'Bug Juice', which is literally just that--fermented bug squeezings.<BR>
<BR>
And then there are things like the tea 'stygian bliss'.  One cup is<BR>
refreshing, enlightening and mind expanding.  From my library data<BR>
(available at http://www.travellercentral.com -- shameless plug):<BR>
<BR>
 "Stygian Bliss: A rare and much sought after tea derived from a lichen<BR>
native to Cunnonic/Darrian. The tea is made from the buds of the lichen,<BR>
budding occurring every 11 years. The buds are then fermented over a period<BR>
of 3 years, then dried. The infusion from the tea is euphoric, invigorating,<BR>
and increases clarity of thought. Unfortunately, the tea is also toxic if<BR>
taken in more than small quantities. Death from Stygian Bliss results from<BR>
slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the thought processes<BR>
are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
<BR>
Any other weird and unusual potables?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 19:21:09 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Guns in Games<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I, Mr. Big Guns, have run a game where the most deadly weapon carried by a<BR>
> PC was a sharpened butter knife.  And I had a character who dispatched a<BR>
> master assassin with nothing more than a sharpened stick (OK, it was luck,<BR>
> and it was also through the heart).  We frequently run political games,<BR>
> where a sharp retort or vicious snub is the order of the day.<BR>
<BR>
In our current campaign, one of my characters (it's a small group; we<BR>
run multiple characters) commands an entire regiment of BD-equipped jump<BR>
troops (plenty of room for satisfying explosions and gunplay there!),<BR>
while his wife, who holds a PhD in history, has absolutely no combat<BR>
skills.<BR>
<BR>
She did, however, disable an assassin with a bottle of shampoo (one<BR>
sneaks up on the Baroness Margaret at one's own peril).  The cad had the<BR>
temerity to enter the bathroom of her hotel suite while she was in the<BR>
shower.<BR>
<BR>
Good thing she didn't use a "no-tears" baby shampoo.... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:27:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games<BR>
<BR>
> while his wife, who holds a PhD in history, has absolutely no combat<BR>
> skills.<BR>
><BR>
> She did, however, disable an assassin with a bottle of shampoo (one<BR>
> sneaks up on the Baroness Margaret at one's own peril).  The cad had the<BR>
> temerity to enter the bathroom of her hotel suite while she was in the<BR>
> shower.<BR>
><BR>
> Good thing she didn't use a "no-tears" baby shampoo.... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
One mustn't forget the utility of the favorite pet.  After all, 5 of the 6<BR>
ends of a cat are pointy.  And one player did take minor damage after having<BR>
several metric tons of lime Jell-O dumped on them as a 'practical' joke.<BR>
Now add a few hundred pounds of maraschino cherries and some whipped cream<BR>
(OK, a lot of whipped cream).  We've had players also fall prey to the<BR>
spiked brandy (very rare Terran.  Drink this and you enjoy a superb<BR>
libation -- then turn bright orange and have your hair fall out.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:30:17 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
>I agree - I do not aim to kill PC's - but bullets hurt, and I tend to let<BR>
>the dice work there magic. My Players tend to learn two or three lessions<BR>
>really really quick:<BR>
><BR>
>1) Cover is a wonderfull thing<BR>
>1.5) Massed covering fire is a wonderful thing<BR>
>2) Armor is worth it's weight in gold<BR>
>3) Talk hurts less them bullets.<BR>
><BR>
>IE - after a few sessions, they start to try and run or talk their way out<BR>
>of fights - but sometimes that is not possible. When that happens, they tend<BR>
>to over equip and over kill when ever possible. I remeber a ex marine<BR>
>w/battledress (hard times) who carried a 20cm RAM AutoGL most of the time.<BR>
>He kept a TacNuke clip on him also.. it accually came in handy during a<BR>
>boarding action... (trying lamely to tie two threads together)...<BR>
><BR>
>Ahh well<BR>
<BR>
Our GM has also taught us these lessons.<BR>
But there is one you missed<BR>
<BR>
Although "cover" can act as concealment. Concealment is not cover.<BR>
A good example of this is in one of John Woo's movies with Jean <BR>
Claude Van Damm.<sp> I forget the name of the movie...<BR>
Where Jean Claude and the bad guy are diving behind concealment, in <BR>
this case a thin wood wall. Even though they couldn't see each other <BR>
they were able to easily shoot through the thin construction. In our <BR>
games someone would have been hit though.<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:36:45 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<snipped descriptions of unusual libations><BR>
<BR>
>Any other weird and unusual potables?<BR>
<BR>
In the old RQ module 'Trollpak' there was an episode wherein the PCs were required to drink their way through a gauntlet of sadistic troll beverages -- due to trolls' different digestive system, what was tasty and/or intoxicating to them was usually extremely dangerous to humans (the trolls, of course, would helpfully describe the drinks in 'tasty' terms).  Many of these could be adapted for Trav, but, alas, this module is long out-of-print (and my copy is very far away, so I can't give specifics).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:48:50 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
>I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
>Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
>UFO Museum is next door to a nice little establishment<BR>
>called as I recall Dimitrio's that serves very good ouzo<BR>
>(on Burnside).  The Church is in the tourist neighborhood.<BR>
><BR>
>--Glenn<BR>
><BR>
>__________________________________________________<BR>
>Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
>Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
>http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
The Church of Elvis is still in downtown Portland<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:53:16 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games<BR>
<BR>
> > I can't say I've run a firearms _heavy_ campaign, but most<BR>
> > of time all the PCs in my campaigns feel like they need<BR>
> > some guns around to help assuage the overall atmosphere of<BR>
> > paranoia.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Glenn<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
>I, Mr. Big Guns, have run a game where the most deadly weapon carried by a<BR>
>PC was a sharpened butter knife.  And I had a character who dispatched a<BR>
>master assassin with nothing more than a sharpened stick (OK, it was luck,<BR>
>and it was also through the heart).  We frequently run political games,<BR>
>where a sharp retort or vicious snub is the order of the day.<BR>
><BR>
>But sometimes, you just have to break out the boom-booms and cut loose.  We<BR>
>have characters who live to shoot the place up, and as one of my players<BR>
>like's to say "My pack gets lighter as I go".<BR>
><BR>
>Different strokes...<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
Well it does... Especially if he's carrying the full compliment... <BR>
And we are in a heavy running fire fight.<BR>
<BR>
Bill "Damn, now I need a bigger pack" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:02:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2724<BR>
<BR>
>From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
>Subject: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
><BR>
<bigsnip><BR>
><BR>
>By the way I know of a Ethno-Anthropologist who is also practitioner, are<BR>
>there more anthropologist's in the "Broom Closet" than people think?<G><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Well, my degree was in Anthropology (UCI, 1986), but I have always been<BR>
paid to be a lab technician, a chemist, a mechanical engineer, and now a<BR>
software tester (oh yes:  and a brief stint during the bad years of the<BR>
early '90s as a jeweler, a contractor, and an assistant chef.  Heinlein was<BR>
right:  specialization is for insects).  As for my religious<BR>
beliefs/practice, I am pagan, and have been known to use ceremonial magic in<BR>
the past.  I can usually be found wearing a Thor's hammer, and have an image<BR>
of Sekhmet as the wallpaper on my computer (something I find intensely<BR>
amusing - many years ago, there was a review of City State of the Invincable<BR>
Overlord in some gaming magazine; one of the reviewer's complaints was that<BR>
there was a temple of the Norse pantheon right next to a temple of Thoth.<BR>
He stated that he could not think of two more incompatable religions.  I<BR>
have never found it to be such.)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:03:51 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
>  "Stygian Bliss: A rare and much sought after tea derived from a lichen<BR>
> native to Cunnonic/Darrian. The tea is made from the buds of the lichen,<BR>
> budding occurring every 11 years. The buds are then fermented over a period<BR>
> of 3 years, then dried. The infusion from the tea is euphoric, invigorating,<BR>
> and increases clarity of thought. Unfortunately, the tea is also toxic if<BR>
> taken in more than small quantities. Death from Stygian Bliss results from<BR>
> slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the thought processes<BR>
> are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
<BR>
That sounds like an intensely unpleasant way to die.<BR>
<BR>
<<accelerated thought processes of victim>><BR>
<BR>
"Hmmm.  From the way my body is responding, the cup of Stygian Bliss I<BR>
finished three minutes, seventeen-point-two-three seconds ago has caused<BR>
me to cross the threshold from pleasant afternoon to doomed.  I estimate<BR>
that I have thirty-seven minutes of consciousness left before my<BR>
autonomic nervous system degrades to the point where my body is no<BR>
longer able to continue functioning at a level consistent with<BR>
consciousness.  Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable of treating<BR>
Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away...."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:06:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> By the way I know of a Ethno-Anthropologist who is also practitioner, are <BR>
> there more anthropologist's in the "Broom Closet" than people think?<G> One <BR>
> part of his real job would be my idea of severe torture, transcribing <BR>
> recorded info/histories from Native Americans, until it all precise and <BR>
> exact. Ahhhgg, hit play, hit rewind, hit play, hit rewind, over and over... <BR>
> the time it toke him to transcribe just 8 hours of history/info was <BR>
> incredible, on the order of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Having had to do this to get lyrics to some songs, he has my sympathy.<BR>
<BR>
These days, I'd xconvert the recording to a WAV file or the like and<BR>
use that. It saves wear and tear on irreplacable tapes. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:55:32 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
At 16:12 -0400 5/7/00, newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb <BR>
Turk) wrote:<BR>
>   What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
>   Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
<BR>
You only need the GURPS Traveller rulebook and GURPS Lite (free <BR>
download from SJG site) in reality.<BR>
<BR>
But, about the others:<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Basic expands the rules quite well.<BR>
GURPS Space 3rd gives more details on Space Campaigns<BR>
GURPS Vehicles 2 lets you design equipment in depth in American units <BR>
(shudder).<BR>
GURPS Compendium (whichever one is on the back of GT) gives info on <BR>
the template system but it's reasonably easy to understand without <BR>
it, and if you have a JTAS discussion (http://jtas.sjgames.com/) <BR>
(which is worth it), the actual template format was discussed in a <BR>
thread on the discussion pages.<BR>
<BR>
GT: Far Trader is a superb merchant supplement for any Traveller era.<BR>
GT: First In is a great Scouts supplement.<BR>
The usefulness of the rest depends on what CT material you have. It's <BR>
all been quite good.<BR>
101 Starships for GURPS Traveller is also good (it should be back up <BR>
at BITS soon, but Freelance Traveller (linked from <BR>
http://www.downport.com/) has got it up already.<BR>
<BR>
Software - if you have a Mac, check out the downloadable demos of Rob <BR>
Prior's stuff at BITS website on the links off the product page. <BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:41:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat (was notorious TMLers)<BR>
<BR>
At 16:12 -0400 5/7/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
>So, to really get a feel for the ACQ weapons and damage, what other material<BR>
>should one read?  T4?  I am pretty much a CT ref, but some of the combat<BR>
>stuff really galls.  OTOH, I know it very well.  I should point out that I<BR>
>have been rather disappointed with FFS2, and kind of results one often gets.<BR>
<BR>
T4 is worth reading, especially the combat/task system pages. A lot <BR>
of the rest of the text is quite heavily lifted from CT. If you go to <BR>
the BITS site and download the tasks system PDF you can see the T4.1 <BR>
changes to dice rolled (also in ACQ). EA gives a good feel for the <BR>
weapons available. Note that canon has TL15 BD not battlepods as <BR>
proposed in EA. The archive page on the BITS site also has (1) a T4 <BR>
gun design spreadsheet for Excel (FFS2) by Andrew Moffatt-Valance, <BR>
and (2) the Famille Spofulam catalogue, which has a number of legal <BR>
weapons and ship designs for T4.<BR>
<BR>
The ACQ weapons pretty much duplicate the EA and T4 designs. We <BR>
intend to post a conversion rules PDF sometime soon so you can take a <BR>
FFS2 design and rate it in ACQ for the extra stats.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2725<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2726</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 5 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2726<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
RE: Guns in Games<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2724<BR>
RE: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
RE: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:18:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
> I only recently went into main Powell's, after their renovation (added three<BR>
> more floors. Mein Gott!)I usually hit Powell's in Beaverton , or the<BR>
> Powell's technical book store (Geek paradise).<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
When did they add three more floors?  Now that I think of it, I don't think<BR>
I've been in there in well over a year...  Last few times I've been downtown<BR>
for the Tech bookstore I didn't have time to go to the main one.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still ticked at the Beaverton store for kicking everyone out the day of<BR>
the Rose Parade, just becuase someone drove a car into the door and broke a<BR>
pipe.  Sheesh!  I'd just found a David Weber book I'd been looking for :^)<BR>
and they wouldn't let me buy it :^(<BR>
<BR>
			   Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:28:48 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
<BR>
  Okay, this is probably off topic, but I'm currently watching a program on <BR>
The Learning Channel called Junkyard Wars.  In this program, two teams are <BR>
set loose in a junkyard and told to build something (in this case, power <BR>
pullers) that later compete against each other. It's the sort of program <BR>
that I'm sure could give a GM all sorts of ideas. TLC is showing two hours <BR>
tonight, plus the show is going to be on two more weeks this month.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:31:14 GMT<BR>
From: newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk)<BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 23:55:32 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>   What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
>>   Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
><BR>
>You only need the GURPS Traveller rulebook and GURPS Lite (free <BR>
>download from SJG site) in reality.<BR>
><BR>
>But, about the others:<BR>
><BR>
>GURPS Basic expands the rules quite well.<BR>
>GURPS Space 3rd gives more details on Space Campaigns<BR>
>GURPS Vehicles 2 lets you design equipment in depth in American units <BR>
>(shudder).<BR>
>GURPS Compendium (whichever one is on the back of GT) gives info on <BR>
>the template system but it's reasonably easy to understand without <BR>
>it, and if you have a JTAS discussion (http://jtas.sjgames.com/) <BR>
>(which is worth it), the actual template format was discussed in a <BR>
>thread on the discussion pages.<BR>
><BR>
>GT: Far Trader is a superb merchant supplement for any Traveller era.<BR>
>GT: First In is a great Scouts supplement.<BR>
>The usefulness of the rest depends on what CT material you have. It's <BR>
>all been quite good.<BR>
<BR>
Here is what I have found (as I dug out the closet...)...(as a note<BR>
that I sent the guys who asked me to get back into this...).....<BR>
<BR>
LLB's (GDW)<BR>
<BR>
Book 0 - Introduction to Traveller<BR>
Book 1 - Character and Combat<BR>
Book 2 - Starships<BR>
Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures<BR>
Book 4 - Mercenary<BR>
Book 5 - High Guard<BR>
Book 6 - Scouts<BR>
Book 7 - Merchant Prince<BR>
Book 8 - Robots<BR>
<BR>
Supplement 1 - 1001 Characters<BR>
Supplement 2 - Animal Encounters<BR>
Supplement 3 - The Spinward Marches<BR>
Supplement 4 - Citizens of the Imperium<BR>
Supplement 5 -Lightening Class Cruisers<BR>
Supplement 6 - 76 Patrons<BR>
Supplement 7 - Traders and Gunboats<BR>
Supplement 8 - Library Data (A-M)<BR>
Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships<BR>
Supplement 10 - The Solomani Rim<BR>
Supplement 11 - Library Data (N-Z)<BR>
Supplement 12 - Forms and Charts<BR>
Supplement 13 - Veterans<BR>
<BR>
Adventure 1 - The Kinunir<BR>
Adventure 2 - Research Station Gamma<BR>
Adventure 3 - Twilight's Peak<BR>
Adventure 4 - Leviathan<BR>
Adventure 5 - Trillion Credit Squadron<BR>
Adventure 6 - Expedition to Zhodane<BR>
Adventure 7 - Broadsword<BR>
Adventure 8 - Prison Planet<BR>
Adventure 9 - Nomads of the World-Ocean<BR>
Adventure 10 - Safari Ship<BR>
Adventure 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station<BR>
Adventure 12 - Secret of the Ancients<BR>
Adventure 13 - Signal GK<BR>
<BR>
Double Adventure 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows<BR>
Double Adventure 2 - Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril<BR>
Double Adventure 3 - The Argon Gambit/Death Station<BR>
Double Adventure 4 - Marooned/Marooned Alone<BR>
Double Adventure 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague<BR>
Double Adventure 6 - Night of Conquest/Divine Intervention<BR>
<BR>
Journal of the Travellers Aid Society - Issues 6 thru 24 (I swore that<BR>
I had all of these.cannot find the                            first 5<BR>
though)<BR>
<BR>
Best of the Journal - Vols 1 thru 3<BR>
<BR>
Mayday<BR>
<BR>
Striker - Rule Book 1 - Basic Rules<BR>
Striker - Rule Book 2 - Advanced Rules<BR>
Striker -  Rule Book 3 - Equipment<BR>
<BR>
Azhanti Hight Lightening - Rules Booklet (and Box Game with plans)<BR>
Snapshot - Rules Booklet (and Shiplans)<BR>
<BR>
Other GDW Items<BR>
<BR>
Megatraveller - Players Manual<BR>
The Traveller Adventure<BR>
The Traveller Book - Vol 1<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Adventures<BR>
<BR>
Duneraider - Adventure (Gamelords)<BR>
The Harrensa Project/The Stazhkekh Report (Fasa)<BR>
Ascent to Anekthir (Gamelords)<BR>
The Legend of the Sky Raiders - (Fasa)<BR>
The Trail of the Skyraiders - (Fasa)<BR>
The Fate of the Skyraiders - (Fasa)<BR>
Introductory Adventure - The Imperial Fringe (GDW)<BR>
Rescue on Galatea (Fasa)<BR>
Ordeal by Eshaar (Fasa)<BR>
Uragyad'n of the Seven Pillars (Fasa)<BR>
Action Aboard - Adventures on the King Richard (Fasa)<BR>
<BR>
Magazines<BR>
<BR>
Alien Star - 6 (UK)<BR>
Alien Star - 8 (UK)<BR>
<BR>
Challenge - (GDW) Issues 25 thru 31<BR>
<BR>
Far Traveller - 1 (Fasa)<BR>
Far Traveller - 2<BR>
<BR>
The Traveller Digest -  (Digest Group Publications) Issues 1 thru 10<BR>
<BR>
High Passage - 2 thru 4 (Fasa)<BR>
<BR>
Supplements<BR>
<BR>
Beyond - Paranoia Press<BR>
Merchants and Merchandise - (Paranoia Press)<BR>
Scouts and Assassins - 2nd Edition - (Paranoia Press)<BR>
The Undersea Environment (Gamelords)<BR>
Vanguard Reaches - (Paranoia Press)<BR>
Lee's Guide - Volume 1 - Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure<BR>
(Gamelords)<BR>
The Desert Environment (Gamelords)<BR>
Wanted: Adventurers (Gamelords)<BR>
IISS Ship Files (Games Workshop)<BR>
SORAG - Handbook of Organization and Equipment (Paranoia Press)<BR>
Adventure Class Ships - Vol. 1 - (Fasa)<BR>
Adventure Class Ships - Vol 2 - Book 1 - (Fasa)<BR>
Adventure Class Ships - Vol 2 - Book 2 - (Fasa)<BR>
Merchant Class Ships - Book 1 - (Fasa)<BR>
Merchant Class Ships - Book 2 - (Fasa)<BR>
Aslan Mercenary Ships - Book 1 - (Fasa)<BR>
Aslan Mercenary Ships - Book 2 - (Fasa)<BR>
Hotel Complex - StarportPort Module Number One<BR>
Glimmerdrift Reaches - (Judges Guild)<BR>
The FCI Consumer Guide Volume 1 - (Fasa)<BR>
101 Robots (Digest Group Publications)<BR>
Grand Survey (Digest Group Publications)<BR>
Grand Census - Collecting and Detailing Cultures - (Digest Group<BR>
Publications)<BR>
The Atlas of the Imperium - Star Maps of 35 Sectors in and around the<BR>
Imperium - (GDW)<BR>
Alien Realms - (GDW)<BR>
The Spinward Marches Campaign - Adventures in a War Ravaged Sector -<BR>
(GDW)<BR>
Alien Module 1 - Aslan - (GDW)<BR>
Alien Module 2 - K'kree - (GDW)<BR>
Alien Module 3 - Vargr - (GDW)<BR>
Alien Module 4 - Zhodani<BR>
Alien Module 5 - Droyne<BR>
Alien Module 6 - Solomani<BR>
Alien Module 7 - Hivers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ship Plans (For use with 15mm Minatures)<BR>
<BR>
ZISMV: VLEZHDATL - Zhodani Strike Cruiser - (Fasa)<BR>
I.S.P.M.V.: TETHYS - Interstellar Para-Military Vessel<BR>
I.S.P.M.V.: FENRIS - STELLER FIGHTING VESSEL - VALKYRIE - (Fasa)<BR>
I.S.C.V.: LEANDER - INTERSTELLAR COMMERCIAL VESSEL - (Fasa)<BR>
I.S.C.V.: KING RICHARD - A Luxury Liner of the First Class - (Fasa)<BR>
<BR>
Games <BR>
<BR>
Azhanti High Lightning<BR>
<BR>
(and a couple more that are buried in my closet)<BR>
<BR>
Plus a bunch of misc stuff (Judges Guild et al) that I did not feel<BR>
like digging out.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk<BR>
Rector, Our Lady of Perpetual Motion, ULC<BR>
ICQ #22039552<BR>
FLAME Asshole of the Year - 1995<BR>
FLAME Asshole of the Year Lifetime Achievement Award - 1997<BR>
MODERATOR, alt.flamenet<BR>
FNB - Alpha Test Team Leader<BR>
Special Agent, Echomail Liberation Army<BR>
Fidonet Zone 1, H.N.I.C.<BR>
Fidonet Galactic Coordinator<BR>
Asshole Net <> Fidonet Internet Gateway Coordinator<BR>
Director, Asshole Net Research & Development Branch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 02:28:36 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
At 19:58 -0400 5/7/00, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> >I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and am<BR>
> >planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system.<BR>
> >Has anyone else done this before?<BR>
>Well, a company called Game Designers' Workshop did exactly<BR>
>that some years ago when they produced a product called<BR>
>Traveller: The New Era.<BR>
<BR>
Unless the original poster is referring to the one true Classic <BR>
Twilight 2000, before they went all revisionist in the background and <BR>
changed the whole canon by altering the reasons behind the war. <weg><BR>
<BR>
TNE is second ed Twilight...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:32:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related topics))<BR>
<BR>
Actually I know that lesson well - Case in point - paintball last Sunday -<BR>
guy hiding in bush, firing at team mate. I had no target at all - could not<BR>
see which bush he was behind, and knew that other baddies were about so did<BR>
not want to give my position away. Till the barrel of his gun poked out of<BR>
the bush. Did a quick calculation on length of guns, and plugged him once in<BR>
the head and three times in the side of the torso. 4 hits for about 8 or 10<BR>
shots in a slow count of two. Not to bad ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bill<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 5:30 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games (ws RE: Notorious TMLers (and related<BR>
topics))<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I agree - I do not aim to kill PC's - but bullets hurt, and I tend to let<BR>
>the dice work there magic. My Players tend to learn two or three lessions<BR>
>really really quick:<BR>
><BR>
>1) Cover is a wonderfull thing<BR>
>1.5) Massed covering fire is a wonderful thing<BR>
>2) Armor is worth it's weight in gold<BR>
>3) Talk hurts less them bullets.<BR>
><BR>
>IE - after a few sessions, they start to try and run or talk their way out<BR>
>of fights - but sometimes that is not possible. When that happens, they<BR>
tend<BR>
>to over equip and over kill when ever possible. I remeber a ex marine<BR>
>w/battledress (hard times) who carried a 20cm RAM AutoGL most of the time.<BR>
>He kept a TacNuke clip on him also.. it accually came in handy during a<BR>
>boarding action... (trying lamely to tie two threads together)...<BR>
><BR>
>Ahh well<BR>
<BR>
Our GM has also taught us these lessons.<BR>
But there is one you missed<BR>
<BR>
Although "cover" can act as concealment. Concealment is not cover.<BR>
A good example of this is in one of John Woo's movies with Jean<BR>
Claude Van Damm.<sp> I forget the name of the movie...<BR>
Where Jean Claude and the bad guy are diving behind concealment, in<BR>
this case a thin wood wall. Even though they couldn't see each other<BR>
they were able to easily shoot through the thin construction. In our<BR>
games someone would have been hit though.<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 02:38:11 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
At 21:17 -0400 5/7/00,  trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:<BR>
>would helpfully describe the drinks in 'tasty' terms).  Many of <BR>
>these could be adapted for Trav, but, alas, this module is long <BR>
>out-of-print (and my copy is very far away, so I can't give <BR>
>specifics).<BR>
<BR>
I've not got it but my RQ addict friends told me this is in the <BR>
reprint series but didn't have a date for it. Pavis/Big Rubble has <BR>
already been released and is a really nice book...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:42:19 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> John,<BR>
> <BR>
> In original version of D&D the magic system was a crude attempt at<BR>
> recreating the "Vancian" magic of Jack Vance's "Dying Earth Saga". How<BR>
> close they got is still debated, even today.<G> All later versions of<BR>
> D&D were built from this foundation of "Vancian" magic. Again<BR>
> different minds produced variations of the original magic system.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I just finsished writing up the magic system for the Dying <BR>
Earth RPG Pelgrane press is putting out this fall/winter (Robin <BR>
Laws is writing the rest of the book, so it really rocks).  The result <BR>
looks very little like D&D magic, despite the fact that D&D is <BR>
clearly using a Vancian base.  <BR>
<BR>
> It was not even an attempt to bring out the features of "High" or<BR>
> "Low" magic either current day use, or of earlier epochs usage. But<BR>
> many have speculated as to why.<G><BR>
> <BR>
> The first edition of "Authentic Thaumaturgy" I have was most<BR>
> interesting for myself, but a very good friend expressed a similar<BR>
> view of close to yours. But then he is such a ceremonial practitioner<BR>
> that his rituals could make the "Masonry" very envious/jealous.<G> But<BR>
> then I believe that Bonewitz wrote that mainly for "Low" magic not<BR>
> "High".<BR>
<BR>
That's not my main objection to AT.  My primary objection to AT is <BR>
the mixture of magic and physics, things like talking about joules <BR>
and newtons when discussing various attack spells and such.  <BR>
That sort of thinking just strikes me as silly.  Given both my <BR>
practical experience with magic and the reading in folklore and <BR>
mythology I have done energy limits are not one of the significant <BR>
limits of magic.  Wherever the power source comes from, using it <BR>
is much more a matter of precise control than of acquiring enough <BR>
energy to perform a task.  Bonewits makes a number of <BR>
assumptions about magic (like the one that using less energy is <BR>
considerably easier than using more energy) which I simply don't <BR>
agree with as either a magician or an anthropologist [or as <BR>
someone with a BA in physics, I have enough degrees that RPG <BR>
writing is about all that I'm good for].  Basically, I completely <BR>
disagree with the way he models magic.  Then again, GURPS <BR>
Voodoo is my model for "realistic" magic systems, and I prefer Ars <BR>
Magica or Unknown Armies for more cinematic magic.    <BR>
 <BR>
> By the way I know of a Ethno-Anthropologist who is also practitioner,<BR>
> are there more anthropologist's in the "Broom Closet" than people<BR>
> think?<G> One part of his real job would be my idea of severe torture,<BR>
> transcribing recorded info/histories from Native Americans, until it<BR>
> all precise and exact. Ahhhgg, hit play, hit rewind, hit play, hit<BR>
> rewind, over and over... the time it toke him to transcribe just 8<BR>
> hours of history/info was incredible, on the order of weeks.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, the most I've ever done is transcribe 30 minutes of material.  It <BR>
took *many* hours of agonizing work.  Heading back in a <BR>
Travellerward direction, one of the most impressive advances in <BR>
information processing technology will be a device which can <BR>
transcribe speech.  This will be considerably more complicated <BR>
than ordinary speech recognition software, with most of those you <BR>
must speak clearly, with a limited vocabulary and distinct pauses.  <BR>
Ordinary human conversation has none of these limits, especially <BR>
when people interrupt each other and attempt to talk over each <BR>
other.  I'm guessing that a TL 12 Low Autonomous robot brain will <BR>
be the minimum necessary to transcribe speech.  So, TL12+ court <BR>
reporting and similar tasks will all be done by machines built <BR>
around robot brains and there will be a great many sophonts who <BR>
are overjoyed with the fact that they never need do such a thing <BR>
again.   <BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:40:44 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
At 03:06 PM 7/4/00 -0700, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Point taken.  Anyone assaulting a ship that is prepared for boarders is in<BR>
>serious trouble.  How does one take a ship without appalling casualties?<BR>
You don't.  You disable the drives and weapons, and pull along <BR>
side.  Inform the ship you are sending a small boarding crew on board with <BR>
a bomb and that they will cooperate or their ship will be destroyed.  End <BR>
of story, your boarding crew is expendable.<BR>
This idea comes from one of Jerry Pournelle's "There Will Be War" books, <BR>
but was actually one of the pieces cut from "The Mote in God's Eye".  I <BR>
believe it describes the capture of the rebel cruiser 'Defiant'.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:52:28 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 15:02, WriteFool@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 7/5/00 1:55:34 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
> webmaster@travellercentral.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> << > By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
>  > in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
>  > think the idea of taking over a ship by boarding is a<BR>
>  > romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
>  > movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
>  > weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
 <BR>
>  Weren't there a couple of commando operations during WWII involving<BR>
>  boarding?  Not classic boarding, to be sure, but more SBS/Seal type actions.<BR>
>  Walt?<BR>
<BR>
I know there was one instance of a "classic' boarding action in the 1stWW. <BR>
A British Destroyer was accidentally rammed by a German Destoyer <BR>
during one of the light forces actions in the North Sea. The German <BR>
Captain ordered a boarding and the British Captain issued cutlasses to his <BR>
men (their last recorded use). AFAIK this was the last instance, though <BR>
you do have things such as the boarding of the Altmark and a couple of U <BR>
boats during the 2ndWW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:53:50 -0500<BR>
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: AD&D MAGIC et al was Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
At 09:06 PM 07/05/2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail Sinbad Sam write:<BR>
><BR>
> > By the way I know of a Ethno-Anthropologist who is also practitioner, are<BR>
> > there more anthropologist's in the "Broom Closet" than people think?<G> <BR>
> One<BR>
> > part of his real job would be my idea of severe torture, transcribing<BR>
> > recorded info/histories from Native Americans, until it all precise and<BR>
> > exact. Ahhhgg, hit play, hit rewind, hit play, hit rewind, over and <BR>
> over...<BR>
> > the time it toke him to transcribe just 8 hours of history/info was<BR>
> > incredible, on the order of weeks.<BR>
><BR>
>Having had to do this to get lyrics to some songs, he has my sympathy.<BR>
><BR>
>These days, I'd xconvert the recording to a WAV file or the like and<BR>
>use that. It saves wear and tear on irreplacable tapes.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard,<BR>
<BR>
I would have done that also, but he was/is employed a local university, ie <BR>
no money for that in grant so to speak. Of course using TL 3 tape recording <BR>
device does not help, one step above reel to reel, barely.<G> He always <BR>
amazed me on how little he could live on.<G><BR>
<BR>
Sinbad Sam<BR>
Sam Thomas<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:54:34 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
At 08:15 PM 7/5/00 +0000, The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk wrote:<BR>
>    Man, I hate to ask these kind of questions....<BR>
><BR>
>    Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's.<BR>
>Friends are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads<BR>
>of old CT stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>    Here is the question...<BR>
><BR>
>    What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
><BR>
>    Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
><BR>
>    Sorry for the "newby" type question. Everyone has to start (or in<BR>
>my case, restart) somewhere...<BR>
><BR>
Personally, I like newby questions.  It means there are newbies (even if <BR>
they are retreads).<BR>
If you are a player the books I recommend are:<BR>
GURPS Basic<BR>
GURPS Traveller<BR>
and probably<BR>
GURPS Compendium I.<BR>
The other rules for Mercs or Merchants, you should be able to just write <BR>
down what you need from the character creation pages of the other books, <BR>
that one of the other players may have.  GURPS Traveller books tend to be <BR>
light on the GURPS rules (usually 4 to 8 pages), and more heavy on the <BR>
general background or descriptions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:01:41 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Guns in Games<BR>
<BR>
"Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> One mustn't forget the utility of the favorite pet.  After all, 5 of<BR>
> the 6 ends of a cat are pointy.<BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO  I love this phrase and will share it with every other <BR>
gamer I know!<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
 cat-owner (or perhaps owned by cats?) & gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:09:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is represented by Crunch Guns of various descriptions. Can I get<BR>
> an opinion from someone who has fired an Anti-Tank Rifle (Boys ATR, Crunch<BR>
> Gun, whatever) - could they be effectively used by infantry as a main weapon<BR>
> ? Including in anti-personell roles (I guess with the heavier ammo, you'd<BR>
> get less suppression fire and more aimed shots). Can someone who actually<BR>
> understands the CPR gun rules in FFS2 build me a TL9 Crunch Gun ?<BR>
<BR>
For what it's worth there are a number of .50 BMG rifles available.<BR>
Most are single shot bolt action. There's also a crazy Canadian who<BR>
built a .50 BMG bolt action *pistol*!<BR>
<BR>
You could probably just check some of those out and if any come close<BR>
to what you want, use the real figures for size, weight, etc. <BR>
<BR>
.50 BMG is kinda nice because of the wide variety of ammo available.<BR>
Other than HE (and related, such as HESH) rounds you can get just about<BR>
anything. <BR>
<BR>
> Now, if we make armour more effective, then tanks get more armoured, and<BR>
> grav technology keeps bricks far more mobile (none of those ugly ground<BR>
> pressure issues for a start). <BR>
<BR>
You'll still have ground pressure issues. Those things have to *land*<BR>
sometime. Either intentionally (end of mission, or lurking in cover) or<BR>
unintentionally (shot up, taking cover and hiding).<BR>
<BR>
Either way, it could be embarassing to sink into the ground and then<BR>
discover that the "suction" between the hull and the ground is strong<BR>
than the lift force you can generate...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:40:46 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2724<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> As for my religious<BR>
> beliefs/practice, I am pagan, and have been known to use ceremonial magic in<BR>
> the past.  I can usually be found wearing a Thor's hammer, and have an image<BR>
> of Sekhmet as the wallpaper on my computer (something I find intensely<BR>
> amusing - many years ago, there was a review of City State of the Invincable<BR>
> Overlord in some gaming magazine; one of the reviewer's complaints was that<BR>
> there was a temple of the Norse pantheon right next to a temple of Thoth.<BR>
> He stated that he could not think of two more incompatable religions.  I<BR>
> have never found it to be such.)<BR>
<BR>
Most folks just don't "get" pantheistic cultures' views on religion.<BR>
They can't seem to grasp the idea that the deities "specialize", and<BR>
even when their areas overlap, nobody minds much.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:19:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
<BR>
Yup - gonna watch it<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Richard<BR>
Wilson<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:29 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
  Okay, this is probably off topic, but I'm currently watching a program on<BR>
The Learning Channel called Junkyard Wars.  In this program, two teams are<BR>
set loose in a junkyard and told to build something (in this case, power<BR>
pullers) that later compete against each other. It's the sort of program<BR>
that I'm sure could give a GM all sorts of ideas. TLC is showing two hours<BR>
tonight, plus the show is going to be on two more weeks this month.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:44:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
IMHO I would want bolth of the compendiums - I is needed for some of the<BR>
skills and stuff II is nice for some of the combat rules that it adds in. I<BR>
also might look at HiTech for the list of modern firearms (altho there is a<BR>
friggen huge spreadsheet of them out on the internet - if ya want it I can<BR>
mail it to ya)..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Jimmy<BR>
Simpson<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:55 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Getting restarted....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
At 08:15 PM 7/5/00 +0000, The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk wrote:<BR>
>    Man, I hate to ask these kind of questions....<BR>
><BR>
>    Played Traveller (LBB's) for years, and stopped in mid 80's.<BR>
>Friends are asking that I back into this with them again. I have loads<BR>
>of old CT stuff. These guys are converting to GURPS Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
>    Here is the question...<BR>
><BR>
>    What are your recommendations on what I need to aquire to play<BR>
>Traveller under the GURPS system?<BR>
><BR>
>    Essential books and software (Man, I wish software like some I have<BR>
>seen had been available all those years ago...)...?<BR>
><BR>
>    Sorry for the "newby" type question. Everyone has to start (or in<BR>
>my case, restart) somewhere...<BR>
><BR>
Personally, I like newby questions.  It means there are newbies (even if<BR>
they are retreads).<BR>
If you are a player the books I recommend are:<BR>
GURPS Basic<BR>
GURPS Traveller<BR>
and probably<BR>
GURPS Compendium I.<BR>
The other rules for Mercs or Merchants, you should be able to just write<BR>
down what you need from the character creation pages of the other books,<BR>
that one of the other players may have.  GURPS Traveller books tend to be<BR>
light on the GURPS rules (usually 4 to 8 pages), and more heavy on the<BR>
general background or descriptions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2726<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2727<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: jury duty (my experience - long)<BR>
Re: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re : Jury Duty (getting OT)<BR>
Re : EMP weapons article<BR>
Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re: Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
Re: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:01:21 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: jury duty (my experience - long)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Tony, I did find this interesting, and although my recent jury<BR>
service (which didn't involve being on an actual jury over that 2-weeks) was<BR>
only a fortnight ago, I failed to mention that in the Aussie one, we to had<BR>
to call an automated service asking for "Panel 'whatever,' jury numbers<BR>
'This to that' are required to attend tomorrow morning, the 'whatever of<BR>
whatever, 2000'..." meaning, as you say, only certain members of the current<BR>
panels are required while the others are free to do whatever they like...<BR>
until calling the next evening.<BR>
<BR>
Attendance in Oz, without being selected for a jury (just undergoing the<BR>
empanelling procedure unsuccessfully) is worth $22 (Australian) plus return<BR>
bus-fare.  Being empanelled was worth $42 for the first day, the second day<BR>
was worth more, and the third and subsequent days are worth a little more<BR>
still.  All plus daily return bus-fare.<BR>
<BR>
I personally enjoyed sitting upon a jury, and had done so for simple assault<BR>
to armed robbery with violence... very fascinating.  Oddly enough, I HATE<BR>
courtroom dramas on the idiot box????<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for you trouble mate, your system is different to ours and I CAN<BR>
glean stuff from it... it will be going into my "Hooks" folder :^)<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <TDRandall@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 1:28:am<BR>
Subject: Re: jury duty (my experience - long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I ended up being called up for duty twice while in Lansing Michigan.  This<BR>
is<BR>
> probably from 15 or so years ago, so please forgive me if I misremember<BR>
> something a bit.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<Snip all the real good stuff><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:18:50 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Jeff!  More stuff for my files.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 6:53:am<BR>
Subject: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Well, my experience in NY was that you sit and wait to be called.<BR>
> When you're called, you go to a smaller room, and fill out a<BR>
> questionnaire, and sit and wait some more.  Then, a couple of<BR>
> shysters and a judge come in, and one - the plaintiff's shyster,<BR>
> in this case - provides a short paragraph summary of the facts of<BR>
> the case, very unbiased.  Then, they ask if there is anyone that<BR>
> feels they cannot approach the case in an unbiased manner; those<BR>
> who so indicate are excused, and return to the pool room.  Then,<BR>
> they go through the questionnaires, and ask specific questions of<BR>
> specific individuals, based on how you answered the<BR>
> questionnaire.  You answer them, and then, after there are no<BR>
> more questions, the shysters and the judge file out, and you sit<BR>
> and wait some more.  Then, they come back in, and announce who is<BR>
> on the jury.  If you are not selected at this stage of the<BR>
> process, you are excused, and your jury service for the next<BR>
> two-to-four years at that level is complete.  You are known by<BR>
> number throughout the process.<BR>
<BR>
Before we start here, you get notice about 1-month beforehand, and that has<BR>
a questionnaire - but it's basically comfirming your name, address, etc...<BR>
nothing more than that, not where you work or anything.  But it does include<BR>
your first option for not playing along, such as work commitments, illness,<BR>
etc.<BR>
<BR>
Upon attending on the first day, we also have the talk about what is<BR>
expected and how the system works, then the bailiff simply "calls the roll"<BR>
by going through the jury cards, asking if anyone present didn't have their<BR>
name called (and if so, they sort out why).  Then you wait until you go down<BR>
to the courts for empanelling.<BR>
<BR>
Can you please clear something up for me...?  Are you saying that you attend<BR>
empanelling once, and if not selected, you are dismissed for the next few<BR>
years?  Here, if you are not selected, you are called back until your term<BR>
is finished - for as many trials as they need your panel for over that<BR>
period.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> The questionnaire is anonymous (except for having your number on<BR>
> it); you are asked basic demographics information, plus a few<BR>
> questions such as who your employer is, and whether you have been<BR>
> a participant in the criminal justice system and in the civil<BR>
> tort system.<BR>
><BR>
> I have been called twice; the first time, it was the local<BR>
> transit agency being sued by a rider for (alleged) injuries<BR>
> (allegedly) sustained when the rider was caught in the closing<BR>
> doors of the train; the second time, parents were suing the<BR>
> school district for negligence over the fact that their son had<BR>
> fallen from some bleachers erected in the gym for spectators to a<BR>
> sporting event.  In neither case was I acceptable to the<BR>
> shysters.  In the transit case, I indicated that I was unable to<BR>
> approach the case in an unbiased manner; the agency's shyster<BR>
> made the error of asking why, and the judge made the error of not<BR>
> slapping the shyster down then and there - so I answered:<BR>
> "Because I've been caught in those damn doors too many times<BR>
> myself!".  Immediate return of the entire set of potential jurors<BR>
> for that case to the pool (anyone that doesn't think that<BR>
> response would have instantly biased the entire group, write me<BR>
> privately; I have some real estate deals for you, real cheap).<BR>
> In the school case, I was found unsuitable because I had been the<BR>
> plaintiff in a similar case many years previously (I was the<BR>
> injured minor; the respondent was not a school or other<BR>
> government agency, however) - the respondent's shyster asked me<BR>
> about whether the case had been resolved to my satisfaction; I<BR>
> indicated that I had no direct knowledge, as it never came to<BR>
> trial, and as a minor, at the time, I would not have had a full<BR>
> understanding of the situation nor would I have been a<BR>
> participant in any settlement negotiations.  I presumed that it<BR>
> had been resolved to my parents' satisfaction.  The shyster then<BR>
> asked me about bias due to the similarities of my case with his;<BR>
> my response was that my case was so long ago, that the<BR>
> similarities were "noted, and disregarded".  He didn't like that<BR>
> answer, I think.<BR>
> --<BR>
> Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:27:54 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
Again, thanks!<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 7:34:am<BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> When your group is called in, you sit in the audience area and a<BR>
> lawyer gives a brief description of the case, including the names of<BR>
> the interested parties (judge, lawyers, plantifs, defendents, etc),<BR>
> and the judge asks if anyone doesn't think they can give a fair an<BR>
> unbiased judgement in the case or if they have a good reason not to<BR>
> serve on this jury.  If anyone raises their hand, the judge asks<BR>
> "why" and depending on what they say either excuses them, ignores<BR>
> them, gives them a lecture about civic responsibility, or takes them<BR>
> into chambers (along with the lawyers) for a private conversation<BR>
> while everyone waits.<BR>
<BR>
I like the idea of using some of these things in a game, just to throw the<BR>
players off enough to make them doubt their own ideas.  My players being all<BR>
Aussie, may already have a notion of how we work (well, I have three coppers<BR>
in my gaming group - they will know) it here, but by throwing in little<BR>
things like the entire jury being interviewed beforehand by almost everyone,<BR>
may give them pause to think... especially if they are on trial and expect a<BR>
specific system to work in their favour.<BR>
<BR>
In Oz, no-one but the judge speaks with prospective jurors during<BR>
empanelling, except for when the bailiff swears them in (one at a time), the<BR>
shysters (I liked reading that term :) don't get to say squat unless it is<BR>
to challenge or stand you by.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:34:51 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have added<BR>
to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall that in some places and times, they assembled a jury<BR>
by sending the bailiffs out on the street and grabbing the first few<BR>
dozen people they ran into. Often they'd step into a bar or saloon and<BR>
grab folks from there.<BR>
<BR>
<Snip><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:37:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/4/00 10:37 AM, tiamat@tsoft.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
> to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
> and I'm not signing up unless we do.<BR>
<BR>
Same here!<BR>
<BR>
> In the wars where there was a genuine<BR>
> threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript them?<BR>
> This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of conscription<BR>
> is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
None as far as I can tell. But I'm a nut-ball.<BR>
<BR>
I do like the draft for RPG's though, instant adventure hook. Real life? No<BR>
way.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:37:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
On 07/06/00 at 01:34 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have<BR>
>added to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
<BR>
You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems handle this too. I know the French have a different method for conducting trials, are there some other methods that the TML members are familar with that you'd care to tell us about?<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 20:52:10 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: reasons to hate AD&D (as if you need more!)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/4/00 11:34 AM, Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> XXOmenXXX@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>> I play games.. with MAGIC oh my.. Because I know.. its just a<BR>
>> GAME.. thats right guys.. G-A-M-E.. what does that spell<BR>
>> Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.<BR>
> <BR>
> Really?  I thought it was a mechanism whereby we could enter into<BR>
> communion with  other  aspects  of  ourselves  that  exist  on  a<BR>
> parallel plane of reality.  You're telling me I've  been  wasting<BR>
> my time on something trivial all these years?  What a bummer!<BR>
> <BR>
> :-^<BR>
> <BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
Same thing*. But then most of my fellow Christians call me a heretic and<BR>
blasphemer. Cool with me, I am not too thrilled with their behaviour either.<BR>
Censorship was never part of Yeshua's bag.<BR>
<BR>
*In My Father's house there are many mansions.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu Jul 06 00:13:54 2000<BR>
From: TDRandall@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
I can see this happening in the U.S. "Old West" for sure, but at that time you could be pretty aware of citizenship and/or a common language.  Now add the fun - bring it in where they don't CARE about that stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Characters' ship lands on a frontier world, they end up going (var) beyond the starport boundaries and get caught up on one of these jury dragnets.  Problem is the TL isn't up to par, and the characters are having problems with any translators they might have (can't keep up with the legalese?).  What might they be faced with?<BR>
<BR>
Misinterpretation of facts for or against the defendant might bring releasing of a truly barbarous criminal  the harsh punishment of an innocent.  Both might be obvious to the locals so they wonder what connection the jury has to swing the case so far away from what should have happened.  Or what about some form of purjury, as the jurors misinterpret one of the questions from the judge or lawyers and the facts come out later?<BR>
<BR>
I know your keen minds can come up with many more, so fill up my evil playbook to throw at the players!<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Tony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:35:38 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Todd Langstaff wrote :<BR>
> By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
> in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
> think the idea of taking over a ship by boading is a<BR>
> romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
> movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
> weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
<BR>
There are many cases of boarding actions in the last twenty odd years (most<BR>
carrried out by pirates or criminals), and quite a few from the Second World<BR>
War.<BR>
<BR>
The Achille Laura(sp?) is probably the most famous, and it adds another<BR>
reason<BR>
for boarding, terrorism.<BR>
<BR>
While the common perception of a Traveller commercial starship is of an<BR>
armed camp with better security than the Federal Reserve Bank, is it really<BR>
reasonable to expect that traders and passemger liners in the 3I are any<BR>
more secure than modern commercial ships ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:40:39 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 1:37:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/06/00 at 01:34 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
><BR>
> >Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have<BR>
> >added to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
><BR>
> You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems handle<BR>
this too. I know the French have a different method for conducting trials,<BR>
are there some other methods that the TML members are familar with that<BR>
you'd care to tell us about?<BR>
><BR>
> Eris<BR>
<BR>
Hear, hear!  Errrr... please... ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:04:39 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote :<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <snipped descriptions of unusual libations><BR>
><BR>
> >Any other weird and unusual potables?<BR>
><BR>
> In the old RQ module 'Trollpak' there was an episode wherein the<BR>
> PCs were required to drink their way through a gauntlet of<BR>
> sadistic troll beverages -- due to trolls' different digestive<BR>
> system, what was tasty and/or intoxicating to them was usually<BR>
> extremely dangerous to humans (the trolls, of course, would<BR>
> helpfully describe the drinks in 'tasty' terms).  Many of these<BR>
> could be adapted for Trav, but, alas, this module is long<BR>
> out-of-print (and my copy is very far away, so I can't give specifics).<BR>
<BR>
I have this within twelve feet of me at this moment. If anyone wants the<BR>
details, let me know.<BR>
<BR>
When I went through Dagori Inkarth and stoppd in at that inn, we tricked the<BR>
trolls, as I wasn't a human either, but an ogre..<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:07:35 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Jury Duty (getting OT)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> > Correct. In most jurisdictions, medical doctors and members of the clergy are<BR>
> > exempt from jury<BR>
> > duty.<BR>
> <BR>
> Any jurisdiction that can't spare a doctor for a week or two of jury duty is<BR>
> in trouble IMHO. No one who claims the rights of a citizen should be exempt.<BR>
<BR>
That's a short list of those who are exempt from jury service, at least<BR>
in New South Wales, Australia.<BR>
<BR>
> Who came up with the idea that it is somehow a good thing to deprive people<BR>
> of sleep and then place the lives of others in their hands, anyway?  To my<BR>
> way of thinking, this is not just stupid.  This is criminal.<BR>
<BR>
This is a medical tradition that can be traced back to the Greek city<BR>
states, or even ancient Egypt (the Edwin Smith papyri?).<BR>
The notion of safe rostering is a very recent one, and has only<BR>
infiltrated critical care areas in the last ten to fifteen years.<BR>
Another consideration is the limits on medical training which are<BR>
largely motivated by economics (specialist incomes vs. specialist<BR>
numbers ; cost to the community/insurers).<BR>
<BR>
> Tod "I want the well-rested doctor, please" Glenn<BR>
And what is a dermatologist going to do for you when you're bleeding to<BR>
death?<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:41:11 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : EMP weapons article<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> The stuff I recall from years back was that they used an explosive<BR>
> charge to *implode* the coil, which concentrated the flux lines because<BR>
> with properly shaped charges, the coil tended to remain sufficiently<BR>
> intact until it was too late to matter, And the core was definitely<BR>
> intact, but compressed all to heck.<BR>
<BR>
Which is the inverse of the description in the New Scientist article,<BR>
but it should work too. The geometry of the charges for collapsing the<BR>
coil would be a little more fiddly to work out.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:41:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> Death from Stygian Bliss results from<BR>
> slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the thought processes<BR>
> are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
<BR>
Slow = hours, days, months, years?<BR>
<BR>
Autonomic failure from (e.g.) diabetes, amyloidosis, and Shy-Drager<BR>
syndrome can be survived for a number of years, though life isn't<BR>
particularly pleasant. Usually other complications associated with these<BR>
processes carry you off (e.g. renal failure, opportunistic infections).<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, death by anticholinesterase (organophosphate<BR>
insecticides and war gases) due to acetylcholine excess (the primary<BR>
postganglionic transmitter in the parasympathetic division of the<BR>
nervous system) is prompt (minutes) without appropriate support.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:41:53 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch wrote :-<BR>
> Marc, seeing as how the authors never actually got paid for FFS2, can we<BR>
> just bite the bullet and release FFS3 ? I think a TML ?Swede? has a clean,<BR>
> errata-free electronic copy ...)<BR>
<BR>
Jens Rydholm, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps we should incorporate the following :-<BR>
- - Water vehicle design sequence<BR>
- - More space propulsion modalities, e.g. :-<BR>
    nuclear pulse propulsion<BR>
    magsails<BR>
    mini-magnetospheric plasma propulsion<BR>
- - Extensions to the DSR to cover magnetic anomaly sensors and sonar, for<BR>
example<BR>
- - Power systems :-<BR>
    higher energy density fusion reactors<BR>
    fission power plant stats fixed<BR>
    RTGs and amended battery rules<BR>
    rejigged fuel cell rules (hydrogen -> alcohol -> methane -><BR>
hydrocarbons without fuel reformulation)<BR>
    thermoelectric/MHD/electrostatic power conversion<BR>
- - an extended [hull] materials list<BR>
- - * rules for equipment use (Reliability, Ease of Use, Hazard, etc.)*<BR>
- - Revise volumes for crew positions slightly<BR>
- - Change explosive power with TTL table slightly to include advanced<BR>
compounds e.g. N5N3, and nuclear isomer catalysed explosives (MJ/g<BR>
energy densities possible in the latter case...)<BR>
- - ?Black body radiation rules for black globes?<BR>
- - Role-Playing Space Combat system?<BR>
- - Some version of Bruce Mac's Military Ship combat system?<BR>
- - tweak ammunition types and damage (?increased granularity of damage<BR>
system - so rounds might do 3D+5, say - armour works to reduce dice for<BR>
damage, other points transmitted through if there's a penetration)...<BR>
- - bend the firearm design system numbers slightly to pull things in to<BR>
reality a bit better (including penetration values for large calibre<BR>
ordnance).<BR>
- - fix energy weapons once and for all.<BR>
- - EMP, acoustic and other weapon systems.<BR>
- - a modular design system (FF&S Light?) <BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:01:55 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
Ever get that "not so fresh" feeling?<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: "TML" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 4:41 AM<BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> > Death from Stygian Bliss results from<BR>
> > slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the thought<BR>
processes<BR>
> > are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
><BR>
> Slow = hours, days, months, years?<BR>
><BR>
> Autonomic failure from (e.g.) diabetes, amyloidosis, and Shy-Drager<BR>
> syndrome can be survived for a number of years, though life isn't<BR>
> particularly pleasant. Usually other complications associated with these<BR>
> processes carry you off (e.g. renal failure, opportunistic infections).<BR>
><BR>
> On the other hand, death by anticholinesterase (organophosphate<BR>
> insecticides and war gases) due to acetylcholine excess (the primary<BR>
> postganglionic transmitter in the parasympathetic division of the<BR>
> nervous system) is prompt (minutes) without appropriate support.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:28:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   Okay, this is probably off topic, but I'm currently watching a program on <BR>
> The Learning Channel called Junkyard Wars.  In this program, two teams are <BR>
> set loose in a junkyard and told to build something (in this case, power <BR>
> pullers) that later compete against each other. It's the sort of program <BR>
> that I'm sure could give a GM all sorts of ideas. TLC is showing two hours <BR>
> tonight, plus the show is going to be on two more weeks this month.<BR>
<BR>
Interesting. I'm watching it right now myself. Same episode. <BR>
<BR>
Personally, I'd like to see what the right sort of folks could do if<BR>
they were turned loose in the USAF "boneyard". <BR>
<BR>
And just imagine player scrounging in the pile (or swarm in zero-g) of<BR>
junk near the port. Abandoned ships, some stripped to the hull/frame,<BR>
others mostly untouched because they are lower TL or just "oddball"<BR>
designs. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:33:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There are many cases of boarding actions in the last twenty odd years (most<BR>
> carrried out by pirates or criminals), and quite a few from the Second World<BR>
> War.<BR>
><BR>
> The Achille Laura(sp?) is probably the most famous, and it adds another<BR>
> reason for boarding, terrorism.<BR>
><BR>
> While the common perception of a Traveller commercial starship is of an<BR>
> armed camp with better security than the Federal Reserve Bank, is it really<BR>
> reasonable to expect that traders and passemger liners in the 3I are any<BR>
> more secure than modern commercial ships ?<BR>
<BR>
Yes. because modern commercial ships aren't allowed to be armed.<BR>
Traveller ships *are*. And so are the passengers (to at least some<BR>
extent). <BR>
<BR>
Hijackers are likely more of a threat than pirates. And they aren't<BR>
well covered in Traveller. See Gordon Dicksons short story "Hi-Lifter"<BR>
for examples of some of the "interesting" ways you can pull it off.<BR>
<BR>
The most dangerous time on the "average" ship will be the last hour or<BR>
two before a jump. Because if the hijackers can grab the ship then,<BR>
they can jump it to someplace other than the destination. And then<BR>
refuel and jump at their leisure. <BR>
<BR>
With ships that carry enough fuel for *multiple* jumps, there's a<BR>
danger from a bit before exit on thru until the ship reaches the 100<BR>
diameter limit (or the 10 diameter limit if the hijackers are willing<BR>
to take the risk). With a lesser danger from the point they enter jump.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, I just realized that there's actually some danger from the<BR>
point *any* ship gets more than 10 diameters out. Because a risky jump<BR>
is possible then.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:38:43 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
5 million actually (and the official reserves number is even higher).<BR>
Estonia fielded something like 120 000 out of 1 million in the<BR>
liberation war in 1918-1920 and we should aspire to get to that point<BR>
even now (There are less Estonians now, but we have a half a million<BR>
Russians here of which I hope some will be loyal.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
> <BR>
> >Currently Finland can field up to half a million men,<BR>
> <BR>
> Out of a total population of about 6 million?  Wow!<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
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- --------------2FEDFB7DBA53B3AF08DA2A40--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:53:52 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
Hey did you get to meet Stephanie Pierce?  She's the High Priestess of the<BR>
Church of Elvis and used to run a cable show called "Where's the Art?"  I<BR>
was on one of the episodes.  (don't ask me why)  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 8:06 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
> > I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
> > Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, it's not just the Elvis museum, but y2K ready and a breast<BR>
enlargement<BR>
> clinic as well (I need to shoot a picture of the sign next time I'm down<BR>
> town.) And it's also the home of the creepy Elvis impersonator that hangs<BR>
> out by Saturday market.<BR>
><BR>
> I only recently went into main Powell's, after their renovation (added<BR>
three<BR>
> more floors. Mein Gott!)I usually hit Powell's in Beaverton , or the<BR>
> Powell's technical book store (Geek paradise).<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:56:14 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
The Church is on Ankeny (sp?) Street.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 7:35 PM<BR>
Subject: Oregon (was RE: looking for players and GM>)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >Aside from Traveller and a visit to the local shooting <BR>
> >establishment, when in the area, one must make a <BR>
> >pilgrimage to Powell's 'city of books', which I am<BR>
> >informed is the largest book store in the world in terms<BR>
> >of total number of titles for sale.  For some of us, this <BR>
> >alone is a reason to come to/live in the pacific northwest<BR>
> >Mecca of moisture.<BR>
> <BR>
> I have been to Powell's (I don't know about Doug), but what<BR>
> I want to know is, are the UFO Museum and the Coin Operated<BR>
> Computerized Church of Elvis still open and operating?  The<BR>
> UFO Museum is next door to a nice little establishment<BR>
> called as I recall Dimitrio's that serves very good ouzo<BR>
> (on Burnside).  The Church is in the tourist neighborhood.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2727<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2728<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Boarding Actions (was re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
Re: Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
Stuck Grav Vehicles (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re : Jury Duty (getting OT)<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
Fixed Fortifications (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
[none]<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Re: Slavery?<BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:00:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 12:38, Paul Knnap wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> 5 million actually (and the official reserves number is even higher).<BR>
> Estonia fielded something like 120 000 out of 1 million in the<BR>
> liberation war in 1918-1920 and we should aspire to get to that point<BR>
> even now (There are less Estonians now, but we have a half a million<BR>
> Russians here of which I hope some will be loyal.<BR>
<BR>
Actually the formula for calculating a states maximum standing military is <BR>
quite simple. The limits seem to be adminstrative and economic rather <BR>
than technological. The maximum standing force is between 6 and 9 per <BR>
thousand of population (a figure that has remained surprisingly constant <BR>
since the time of the Roman Empire). This level can only be exceeded with <BR>
difficulty and generally only for short periods of time (ForEx, prior to the <BR>
1stWW France pushed it's standing military up to 14 per thousand, but in <BR>
the process inflicted severe damage on its economy). Over short periods of <BR>
time (ie during wartime), a nation can push as high as 100 to 120 per <BR>
thousand without too much trouble, but going beyond this level is a sign of <BR>
national disaster.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:52:38 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Boarding Actions (was re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> There are many cases of boarding actions in the last twenty odd years <BR>
> (most carrried out by pirates or criminals), and quite a few from the <BR>
> Second World War. <BR>
><BR>
> The Achille Laura(sp?) is probably the most famous, and it adds <BR>
> another reason for boarding, terrorism. <BR>
<BR>
These boardings are generally accomplished by stealth, rather than<BR>
by disabling the vessel and sending boarding parties away.  They<BR>
aren't really cases of assaulting a ship that's resisting the <BR>
assault.<BR>
<BR>
I think the Traveller analog to the above would be the actions<BR>
of hijackers, passengers who have managed to smuggle weapons and<BR>
specialized tools aboard.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:03:44 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
I'd be happy if there were just plenty of examples, sprinkled through the<BR>
text.  Such examples could easily take the form of "how to design a<BR>
mercenary cruiser."  The mercenary cruiser itself would provide examples<BR>
for the chapter on "starships," the grav tanks it carries in its cargo<BR>
hold would provide examples for the chapter on "vehicles," the weapons<BR>
used by its troops would provide examples for the chapter on "firearms,"<BR>
and so forth.<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 16:46, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> And no one picked up on CAP (Electro-thermal) guns.  Hughes was shooting<BR>
> 5.56 bullets out of a modified M-16 barrel at 6000 fps back in '82,<BR>
> powered by plasma-stimulated water!<BR>
<BR>
Not until TNE, anyway. They're the default for military small-arms at <BR>
TL9+, pretty much. Say good-bye to caseless ammo, though.<BR>
<BR>
> But the fact is that infantry small arms are way down on the procurement<BR>
> totem-pole.  And we're likely to most of the changes there to be in<BR>
> improving sighting, weapon-human interface and construction materials. <BR>
> The modern firearm is already an almost perfect, man-portable killing<BR>
> system, so long is you can get the bullet to hit the target.  Changes for<BR>
> the next 50 years are probably going to be evolutionary, not<BR>
> revolutionary.  With relatively minor changes, the rifle has not changed<BR>
> all that much in the last 400 years.<BR>
> <BR>
> 100 years from now, we may still be slinging metal bullets at each other,<BR>
> powered by chemical combustion.  The gun may look funky, but the principle<BR>
> will probably be understandable to any ancient harquebusier or musketeer.<BR>
<BR>
And look at the cost to develop even these small changes - they forced <BR>
H&K to sell itself to Royal Ordnance.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 13:16, Todd Langstaff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
> in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
> think the idea of taking over a ship by boading is a<BR>
> romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
> movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
> weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
<BR>
Actually Classical Greek ship weapons were horrendously destructive - <BR>
they just had a short range. A fair amount of naval wishful thinking up <BR>
until WWII was from captains who would really have prefered decisive <BR>
weapons like the old ram to pounding each other with shells for hours <BR>
on end. Even WWI battleship/battlecruiser actions had quite low sinkage <BR>
rates, given how many hours they went on for. Boarding is definately a <BR>
post-ram idea, mainly from the age of sail, where the chance of <BR>
actually sinking an enemy with cannon-fire was practically nil.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 21:09, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> (Think of this as a sidebar : The traditional view is that with grav<BR>
> technology, you get an increase in vehicle masses that is, well, massive.<BR>
> As I build toys like the TL10 D gun, I get less sure of this - basically,<BR>
> I dont think you can build a tank that can take a D gun impact to the<BR>
> front armour. Thus, armoured vehicles would explicitly get recognised as<BR>
> attrition units, and get smaller and lighter.<BR>
<BR>
For similar reasons (using FFS1) I'm begining to wonder if, in <BR>
situations where Meson Gun fire is unlikely, fixed defences might <BR>
become useful again. With a sufficiently large (non-portable) power <BR>
supply it's no trick at all to build a mass driver that will go through <BR>
a lump of armour the size of a tank. This means that the only vehicles <BR>
worth having will be small and cheap or Ogre sized (ie mobile versions <BR>
of the fixed forts). Even with my homebrewed KE penetrator rules this <BR>
effect is somewhat evident.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 16:54, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Caseless ammo sounds so great, but many just don't appreciate all the<BR>
> wonders of the brass-cased cartridge.  Obturation:  the case seals the<BR>
> breach so nicely.  Heat extraction:  Cook off can be a real problem with<BR>
> caseless gun.  The G11 used not so much a propellant as an explosive, much<BR>
> less sensitive to heat.  Mechanical protection.  The case does a lot to<BR>
> help a cartridge stand up to mechanical abuse, not to mention weather and<BR>
> other environmental factors.  Plus, linked belts of MG ammo look really<BR>
> cool. Sorry, but a bandolier of plastic ammunition cassettes just isn't<BR>
> the same ("garret trooper --spit-shined boots and brasso'd ammo" Barry<BR>
> Sadler, IIRC).<BR>
<BR>
Agreed. One of the neat things about being the poor sod with the MINIMI <BR>
was having all those cool links. Another was getting to fire it :)<BR>
<BR>
> Maybe this will become one of those "back in my day..." things, like the<BR>
> brown-boot army, or the khaki uniform (oops, I remember that one).<BR>
<BR>
Here in NZ it's remembering the "black-boot army", back when they real <BR>
leather boots, and tucked their shirts in.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 18:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> For what it's worth there are a number of .50 BMG rifles available.<BR>
> Most are single shot bolt action. There's also a crazy Canadian who<BR>
> built a .50 BMG bolt action *pistol*!<BR>
> <BR>
> You could probably just check some of those out and if any come close to<BR>
> what you want, use the real figures for size, weight, etc. <BR>
<BR>
Or the old Soviet WWII 14.5mm Anti-tank rifles. The ammos fairly <BR>
common, as the 14.5mm round is a common AA gun, and I'm sure there'll <BR>
be some old rifles kicking around somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 14:52, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Without a breakthrough in body armor, the AR is fine for the immediate<BR>
> future; the most likely additions would be things that up hit probability<BR>
> (burst fire, stabilization, computerized sights).  Lighter ammo would be<BR>
> nice, if heat and manufacturing problems with caseless rounds can be<BR>
> solved.<BR>
<BR>
Actually they pretty much have, in the case of the G11, anyway. It <BR>
isn't in service because the German government found other things to <BR>
spend the money on (like the East German side of the economy). <BR>
Apparently having H&K go under and be bought by the British was an <BR>
acceptable price to pay.<BR>
<BR>
The G11's ammo is actually made out of a mix of High Explosive and a <BR>
stabilising agent, BTW.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 9:06, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:42 PM 7/4/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Glenn, Doug et al.  This goes for you all as well.  On the Portland OR<BR>
> >area? We game every Saturday night.  Modified CT.  If you're interested<BR>
> >in dropping in, just shoot me an email.  You can always read the game<BR>
> >notes to find out the current state of the game.  We publish these weekly<BR>
> >on our web site (http://www.travellercentral.com)<BR>
> <BR>
> I am informed by reliable sources that Oregon experiences an odd<BR>
> phenomenon where frozen water actually piles up on the ground in cold, wet<BR>
> piles.  I prefer my water in the liquid form, and shall therefore remain<BR>
> safely in San Francisco, where it last snowed in 1976. -- <BR>
<BR>
Where I'm living now I don't think it does at all (well maybe up on the <BR>
hills around it). Frankie would probably have a better idea, having <BR>
been in the area a lot longer.<BR>
<BR>
Where I used to live it snowed about once a decade, and I think my <BR>
parents' place (which is higher up) once, back in the early 70s had <BR>
some snow that was still solid after lunch.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Junkyard Wars (OT?)<BR>
<BR>
On 5 Jul 00, at 20:28, Richard Wilson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>   Okay, this is probably off topic, but I'm currently watching a program<BR>
>   on <BR>
> The Learning Channel called Junkyard Wars.  In this program, two teams are<BR>
> set loose in a junkyard and told to build something (in this case, power<BR>
> pullers) that later compete against each other. It's the sort of program<BR>
> that I'm sure could give a GM all sorts of ideas. TLC is showing two hours<BR>
> tonight, plus the show is going to be on two more weeks this month.<BR>
<BR>
It's on here, too. However the channel that shows it isn't viewable <BR>
from my place, darn it. One time they made catapults.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:40:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat - Any purists use Striker too?<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 2:28, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 19:58 -0400 5/7/00, Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> > >I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and am<BR>
> > >planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system.<BR>
> > >Has anyone else done this before?<BR>
> >Well, a company called Game Designers' Workshop did exactly<BR>
> >that some years ago when they produced a product called<BR>
> >Traveller: The New Era.<BR>
> <BR>
> Unless the original poster is referring to the one true Classic <BR>
> Twilight 2000, before they went all revisionist in the background and<BR>
> changed the whole canon by altering the reasons behind the war. <weg><BR>
> <BR>
> TNE is second ed Twilight...<BR>
<BR>
But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was <BR>
introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:41:09 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Stuck Grav Vehicles (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>Either way, it could be embarassing to sink into the ground and then <BR>
>discover that the "suction" between the hull and the ground is strong <BR>
>than the lift force you can generate... <BR>
<BR>
Shouldn't be a problem to just include a "seal breaker" - some air<BR>
pressure tubing, wouldn't need much, that pumps air out the bottom<BR>
of the grav vehicle.  A little bit of pressure eqalization is all<BR>
you should need to pop free.  <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:47:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re : Jury Duty (getting OT)<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 18:07, Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Tod "I want the well-rested doctor, please" Glenn<BR>
> And what is a dermatologist going to do for you when you're bleeding to<BR>
> death?<BR>
<BR>
Give a well rested diagnosis of that fact :) And cheerfully tell you <BR>
that you would've died in five yaers from skin cancer anyway, so don'y <BR>
feel too bad.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:48:36 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
In civil law tradition German sphere countries (Northern and Central<BR>
Europe) there is no jury. We sometimes have some laymen acting as<BR>
judges, so that the public would have some influence. The laymen-judge<BR>
jobs are usually given as benefits by the politicians in the local<BR>
municipalities or are recruited by the courts themselves. <BR>
<BR>
The normal system is that there is one lawyer-judge + two laymen-judges.<BR>
Other times there may be panels of two professionals and five laymen.<BR>
The laymen-judges have the same power as the lawyer-judge, but in effect<BR>
the lawyer will probably convince the laymen to do whatever he (or<BR>
actually in most cases - she) wants to.  <BR>
<BR>
In court you can often catch the laymen judges taking a nap or reading<BR>
newspapers instead of following the trial.<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On 07/06/00 at 01:34 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have<BR>
> >added to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
> <BR>
> You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems handle this too. I know the French have a different method for conducting trials, are there some other methods that the TML members are familar with that you'd care to tell us about?<BR>
> <BR>
> Eris<BR>
> --<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
> http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
> -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, Jul 7 2000 0:51:17 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
Jory Earl, the "J-Man" wrote :-<BR>
>Ever get that "not so fresh" feeling?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but there's costs associated with any drug as well as benefits.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:56:22 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Fixed Fortifications (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> For similar reasons (using FFS1) I'm begining to wonder if, in <BR>
> situations where Meson Gun fire is unlikely, fixed defences might <BR>
> become useful again. <BR>
<BR>
Depends on how likely it is that ortillery (or effective artillery) <BR>
will come along.  Every grav vehicle in the inventory can probably <BR>
move fast enough to avoid smiting, but dodging is not in a fixed <BR>
fortification's job description.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:04:12 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in<BR>
Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that<BR>
the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence (maybe some<BR>
survivors to take as prisoners and all kinds of other little tidbits<BR>
like disks, etc) and just for scrap. Boarding a functional warship would<BR>
seem to be suicidal.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway I would think that any larger fleet would also have some ship's<BR>
troops dedicated for these sorts of missions. These missions will be<BR>
dangerous and need special equipment like the body bunkers discussed as<BR>
even if the ship is crippled there may be some fanatics who might oppose<BR>
boarders or the ship's crew may wait a rescue mission of some sort...<BR>
After the enemy ship is cleared by the marines, the intelligence<BR>
personnel and engineers would come and see what they can find.<BR>
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- --------------5BBBDE166CB70537147745DA--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:17:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Todd Langstaff <tlangsta@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: [none]<BR>
<BR>
- --0-1649760492-962893040=:4608<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >>I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and am <BR>
> >>planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system. <BR>
> >>Has anyone else done this before? <BR>
>>Well, a company called Game Designers' Workshop did exactly <BR>
>>that some years ago when they produced a product called <BR>
>>Traveller: The New Era. <BR>
<BR>
>Unless the original poster is referring to the one true Classic <BR>
>Twilight 2000, before they went all revisionist in the background and <BR>
>changed the whole canon by altering the reasons behind the war. <weg> <BR>
<BR>
>TNE is second ed Twilight... <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I was planning to use the one true Classic Twilight 2000, but I am just using the equipment and combat rules, nothing about the setting. I like the CT setting best and will stick to that. If I want the players to adventure in a post-apocolypse setting, I can pick some backwater world and do it there, I don't think you should destroy the entire 3I.<BR>
<BR>
Another change that looks promising is to use the Harn Master wound system and armour penetration system.<BR>
<BR>
- -Todd<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Todd Langstaff<BR>
22-293 Fairway Road North<BR>
Kitchener, Ontario N2A 2P1<BR>
(519)893-6934<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---------------------------------<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at Yahoo! Mail.<BR>
<BR>
- --0-1649760492-962893040=:4608<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&gt; &gt;&gt;I am planning to start a Traveller campaign soon and am <BR>
&gt; &gt;&gt;planning to use the Twilight 2000 combat system. <BR>
&gt; &gt;&gt;Has anyone else done this before? <BR>
&gt;&gt;Well, a company called Game Designers' Workshop did exactly <BR>
&gt;&gt;that some years ago when they produced a product called <BR>
&gt;&gt;Traveller: The New Era. <BR>
<BR>
&gt;Unless the original poster is referring to the one true Classic <BR>
&gt;Twilight 2000, before they went all revisionist in the background and <BR>
&gt;changed the whole canon by altering the reasons behind the war. &lt;weg&gt; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;TNE is second ed Twilight... <BR>
<BR>
I was planning to use the one true Classic Twilight 2000, but I am just using the equipment and combat rules, nothing about the setting. I like the CT setting best and will stick to that. If I want the players to adventure in a post-apocolypse setting, I can pick some backwater world and do it there, I don't think you should destroy the entire 3I.<BR>
Another change that looks promising is to use the Harn Master wound system and armour penetration system.<BR>
-Todd<BR>
<BR>
Todd Langstaff<BR>
22-293 Fairway Road North<BR>
Kitchener, Ontario N2A 2P1<BR>
(519)893-6934<BR>
<BR>
<hr size=1><B>Do You Yahoo!?</B><BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at <A HREF="http://mail.yahoo.ca/">Yahoo! Mail</A>.<BR>
- --0-1649760492-962893040=:4608--------------------------------Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:48:38 -0400 From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu>Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the DraftPaul Knnap wrote:> 5 million actually (and the official reserves number is even higher). > Estonia fielded something like 120 000 out of 1 million in the > liberation war in 1918-1920 and we should aspire to get to that point > even now (There are less Estonians now, but we have a half a million > Russians here of which I hope some will be loyal. I'm sure they will be.  But loyal to whom?Walt Smith------------------------------Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 07:39:29 -0700From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com>Subject: RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)On Thursday, July 06, 2000 6:04 AMPaul Kunnap said,> I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in> Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that> the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligenceI've wondered about this.  I've heard talk about scuttling charges and suchdo deny the enemy anything useful in the event a vessel needs to beabandoned, and I seem to recall a reference in M0 to ships having a protocolfor erasing maps/navigation/etc information in case of hostile alienencounter.I just have a problem with the idea of placing explosives around/within allof your vital systems.  It seems that if these where in place it would makethe ships vastly more likely to suffer catastrophic damage during combat.And with regards to navigational data and maps there is that nice juicyblack box on all civilian ships that records all of this wonderful data andis designed to resist erasing and accidental destruction.  It would seemthat an ideal way to gather intelligence would be to attack merchant shipsand pull the black boxes.  Once you crack the encryption you would haverecent navigational data for all the areas visited by the ship and a goodamount of sensor data on any worlds/ports the ship had visited.G.D.D.Thing under the stairs,Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,Grand Master of the Electron Flow.=================================="This is a work of fiction.  All the characters in it, human and otherwise,are imaginary, excepting only certain of the fairy folk, whom it might beunwise to offend by casting doubts on their existence. Or lackthereof." -Neil Gaiman, "The Books of Magic"------------------------------Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:59:40 +0100From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>Subject: Re: Slavery?In message <3.0.6.32.20000703123302.0081f650@mailhost.dnet.co.uk>,Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk> writes>Hi sorry to butt in but I'm new to the list (haven't played Traveller for>years but still think the original 1st or Deluxe editions are best).  I'm>on several Wargames lists and I'm surprised to see that you have the same>problems here as there, ie rules lawyers and nit pickers.....its a small>world.We have people who don't cut replies too! ;)- -- Martin Hardgrave------------------------------Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:13:49 +0200From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de>Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)Moin Paul K?nnap,> I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in> Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that> the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence (maybe some> survivors to take as prisoners and all kinds of other little tidbits> like disks, etc) and just for scrap. Boarding a functional warship would> seem to be suicidal.  I think boarding was quite common in MT and even more in TNE.  But I dont think about large battles, but about smaller ships  docked on a starport, or grounded on a downport.    MT had this tradition where former military units claimed to be a  power of its own right. And boarding was extended 'body swap' from  'customs control' to confiscated the ship for their national navy ;-)  This had been even worse in TNE. Utevogh and other puppetiers, are  working together with some species of meat, deploying boarding after  docking. In this case the question of a body swap, from a military  ship to check for virus in the wilds, can result in a boarding.  Also boarding at starport or downport is quite often in TNE as many  pocket empires are in search of ships for their fleet.Bye Michael- --   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM------------------------------Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 02:05:58 -0400From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 18:51:06 PST> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)> Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers (was: Re: A couple of quick questions)> > > You want *simple*? Try Tunnels & Trolls.> > Each weapon has a damage rating expressed as some number of dice with a> +/- modifier (ie 3d-8 :-). Each side rolls the dice for *all* the> attacks occurring in that round, adds the dice and the modifiers to get> a *single* number. The side with the lower total takes the *difference*> as damage.> > Armor has point totals. A 3 point shield will stop 3-points of damage,> after which it is useless.> > 	I remember that. I also remember the boxed set had a pencil marked"1d6-4 weapon"- --     Thomas Jones-Low    tjoneslo@together.net------------------------------Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:46:10 +0100 From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>Subject: RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)> -----Original Message-----> From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 2:04 AM> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com> Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)> > > Tod Glenn wrote:> > > <<snip>>> > > >  "Stygian Bliss: A rare and much sought after tea derived > from a lichen> > native to Cunnonic/Darrian. The tea is made from the buds > of the lichen,> > budding occurring every 11 years. The buds are then > fermented over a period> > of 3 years, then dried. The infusion from the tea is > euphoric, invigorating,> > and increases clarity of thought. Unfortunately, the tea is > also toxic if> > taken in more than small quantities. Death from Stygian > Bliss results from> > slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the > thought processes> > are accelerated and expanded."> > That sounds like an intensely unpleasant way to die.> > <<accelerated thought processes of victim>>> > "Hmmm.  From the way my body is responding, the cup of Stygian Bliss I> finished three minutes, seventeen-point-two-three seconds ago > has caused> me to cross the threshold from pleasant afternoon to doomed.  > I estimate> that I have thirty-seven minutes of consciousness left before my> autonomic nervous system degrades to the point where my body is no> longer able to continue functioning at a level consistent with> consciousness.  Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable > of treating> Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away....""Hmmm... I'd better call for a MedEvac and then take the dose of FastDrug I keep for such emergencies."IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, so one subjectiveminute is 1 hour of real time...Matt------------------------------End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2728***********************************To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:unsubscribe traveller-digestin the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail iscoming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append thataddress to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe"local-traveller":subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.netA non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; tosubscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"in the commands above with "traveller".Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>----------------------- Headers --------------------------------Return-Path: <.owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>Received: from  rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (rly-zc05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.5]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:39:01 -0400Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc05.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:38:21 -0400Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA04189;	Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:37:31 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:37:21 -0400Received: (from majordom@localhost)	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id LAA04146	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:37:20 -0400 (EDT)	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:37:20 -0400 (EDT)Message-Id: <200007061537.LAA04146@lists.imagiconline.com>From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.comSubject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2728Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.comSender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com</HTML>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2729</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/6/00 12:35:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2729<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat (was none!?)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
X-TEK has moved!<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide<BR>
RE: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2722<BR>
Re: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
14.5mm Russki<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
Re: Oregon <BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, Jul 7 2000 3:03:32 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote :-<BR>
(of dying from a dose of Stygian Bliss) :-<BR>
> IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, <BR>
> so one subjective minute is 1 hour of real time...<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Fast drug is a bit of a nuisance as described, given the problems with<BR>
hypothermia (cool to ambient temp within 4-6 hours, at most,<BR>
and then die from cardiac standstill), coma (half cerebral metabolic rate=coma with EEG,<BR>
quarter=flatline EEG), and infection (presumably your commensal bacteria<BR>
don't get a dose when you take it).<BR>
<BR>
With regard to Stygian Bliss, 'Accelerated thought processes' equates<BR>
to the thought pressure of mania in my mind, or the thought disorder<BR>
seen in psychosis.<BR>
<BR>
I'm becoming less fond of Stygian Bliss as an intoxicant.<BR>
Maybe it has a wide margin of safety, and the effects aren't quite so<BR>
pronounced at the usual doses...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
(abusing IT resources at work...)<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:12:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Todd Langstaff <tlangsta@yahoo.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat (was none!?)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about garbage following that last post (and the<BR>
lack of a subject), the feature creep on my e-mail<BR>
software was too much for me.<BR>
<BR>
- -Todd<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:37:18 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Paul writes:<BR>
>I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in<BR>
>Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that<BR>
>the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence (maybe some<BR>
>survivors to take as prisoners and all kinds of other little tidbits<BR>
>like disks, etc) and just for scrap. Boarding a functional warship would<BR>
>seem to be suicidal.<BR>
<BR>
	Agreed, unless you have some clever way of getting aboard (not<BR>
	that I can think of anything other than packing marines into<BR>
	crates to be loaded onto the ship).<BR>
<BR>
>Anyway I would think that any larger fleet would also have some ship's<BR>
>troops dedicated for these sorts of missions. These missions will be<BR>
>dangerous and need special equipment like the body bunkers discussed as<BR>
>even if the ship is crippled there may be some fanatics who might oppose<BR>
>boarders or the ship's crew may wait a rescue mission of some sort...<BR>
>After the enemy ship is cleared by the marines, the intelligence<BR>
>personnel and engineers would come and see what they can find.<BR>
<BR>
	Crew members of a disabled ship may be unaware of the status of<BR>
	the surrounding battle, and may attempt to repell boarders to<BR>
	buy time for friendly forces to return (even if the friendlies<BR>
	are long gone).  Such crew might hold off on destruction of<BR>
	vital ship's systems until there appears to be no other option.<BR>
	On really big ships, how long could boarding actions go on?<BR>
	If a 500,000 dton ship is disabled and left vulnerable to<BR>
	boarding, the enemy could profit materially and informationally<BR>
	by getting it intact.  If this keeps them from nuking it<BR>
	outright, I could imaging protracted deck-by-deck fighting.<BR>
	If the defenders could hold out for a couple of weeks,<BR>
	friendly naval forces might return.  Life support systems would<BR>
	be crucial.  Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:53:47 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> 	Crew members of a disabled ship may be unaware of the status of<BR>
> 	the surrounding battle, and may attempt to repell boarders to<BR>
> 	buy time for friendly forces to return (even if the friendlies<BR>
> 	are long gone).  Such crew might hold off on destruction of<BR>
> 	vital ship's systems until there appears to be no other option.<BR>
> 	On really big ships, how long could boarding actions go on?<BR>
> 	If a 500,000 dton ship is disabled and left vulnerable to<BR>
> 	boarding, the enemy could profit materially and informationally<BR>
> 	by getting it intact.  If this keeps them from nuking it<BR>
> 	outright, I could imaging protracted deck-by-deck fighting.<BR>
> 	If the defenders could hold out for a couple of weeks,<BR>
> 	friendly naval forces might return.  Life support systems would<BR>
> 	be crucial.  Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must be<BR>
ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close proximity?<BR>
How about drilling a few holes in the hull and letting the air out?  How<BR>
about launching a dozen or so simultaneous attacks at multiple points to<BR>
spread out the defenders?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:26:00 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "William \"Commander X\" Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net><BR>
Subject: X-TEK has moved!<BR>
<BR>
Communique from X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
To TML All Nodes:<BR>
<BR>
FLASH FLASH FLASH<BR>
<BR>
X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC is jumping to a new web sector effective<BR>
imediately.<BR>
<BR>
The new web sector location is designated http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
<BR>
It is imperative that all references to the old sector address be<BR>
terminated and changed to the new address.<BR>
Failure to do so will incure the wrath of the evil 404 Not Found (FNORD).<BR>
<BR>
*END TRANSMISSION* <BR>
<BR>
\\    //  Commander X<BR>
 \\  //   CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
  T E K   Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //  \\   http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
//    \\  0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:28:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide<BR>
<BR>
>From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>In the old RQ module 'Trollpak' there was an episode wherein the PCs were<BR>
required to >drink their way through a gauntlet of sadistic troll<BR>
beverages -- due to trolls' different >digestive system, what was tasty<BR>
and/or intoxicating to them was usually extremely >dangerous to humans (the<BR>
trolls, of course, would helpfully describe the drinks in >'tasty' terms).<BR>
Many of these could be adapted for Trav, but, alas, this module is long<BR>
>out-of-print (and my copy is very far away, so I can't give specifics).<BR>
><BR>
>Trent<BR>
<BR>
	Have a copy (heehee!) and love it - I actually ran my AD&D (heavily<BR>
modified) players through that many a year ago.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:46:36 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
<BR>
Good design and could be very useful, but how would you tune a flux<BR>
compressor to a particular microwave range? And don't you need a<BR>
fairly hefty electric current to provide the basic charge?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Robert<BR>
> O'Connor<BR>
> Sent: 05 July 2000 07:12<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> EMP (Electromagnetic pulse) effects can be observed following the<BR>
> detonation of nuclear weapons. High energy, high frequency<BR>
> microwaves<BR>
> are created during atmospheric ionisation.<BR>
><BR>
> The currents they can induce in electrical equipment can lead to the<BR>
> malfunction or burnout of these devices.<BR>
><BR>
> Replicating this without nuclear ordnance for tactical<BR>
> applications can<BR>
> be achieved by :-<BR>
> i. Rapid capacitor discharge (HPGs/accumulator banks linked to a<BR>
> suitable antenna) ;<BR>
><BR>
> Maser devices, such as are used in spacecraft<BR>
> communications, could be<BR>
> adapted to become pulse generators.<BR>
><BR>
> ii. Single shot devices using explosive power generation - flux<BR>
> compressors.<BR>
>     A flux compressor is an explosive filled metal cylinder<BR>
> surrounded<BR>
> by a metal coil. At one end of the cylinder is a detonator,<BR>
> at the other<BR>
> an antenna. A small current is passed through the coil to create a<BR>
> magnetic field. The power for this can be provided by a battery.<BR>
>     When the explosive is detonated, the cylinder contacts the coil,<BR>
> focussing the magnetic field into the area ahead of it. The<BR>
> amplified<BR>
> current is radiated by the antenna just prior to the<BR>
> destruction of the<BR>
> device.<BR>
><BR>
> In 100 microseconds, it's possible to create microwaves<BR>
> with power in<BR>
> the gigawatt range.<BR>
><BR>
> At TTL 7, flux compressor systems can be built as small as 2L. The<BR>
> limiting factors are the size of antenna required as well<BR>
> as the energy<BR>
> density of explosives, and to a lesser extent batteries.<BR>
><BR>
> From TTL 9, advances in explosive technology enable smaller<BR>
> devices to<BR>
> be constructed, leading to the advent of EMP grenades by<BR>
> TTL 10. These<BR>
> are very short-ranged devices, with areas of effect of a few tens of<BR>
> metres.<BR>
><BR>
> * Rules<BR>
> * Construction<BR>
> Flux compressor warheads are built in similar fashion to<BR>
> conventional<BR>
> warheads in FF&S2.<BR>
> Minimum size is as follows :-<BR>
> TTL        Diameter/calibre, cm      Mass,kg<BR>
> 8           10                       2<BR>
> 9           5                        0.5<BR>
> 10+         3                        0.1<BR>
><BR>
> All warheads have a density of 2g/cc.<BR>
><BR>
> * Damage effects are divided into explosive and EMP.<BR>
><BR>
> Explosive damage is figured normally, but divided by 2 :-<BR>
> Damage (dice) = 0.5 X (diameter in cm)^2 X ammo TL mod :-<BR>
> TL 8 0.25, TL 9 0.29, TL 10+ 0.36.<BR>
><BR>
> Burst radius, metres = 5 X sqrt(diameter in cm)<BR>
><BR>
> EMP burst radius, metres = (diameter in cm)^2<BR>
><BR>
> Peak warhead power = 10 X (diameter in cm)^2 MW<BR>
> * Burst radii         Effect<BR>
> 1                   Equipment inoperative. Fused circuitry<BR>
> 2                   Difficulty level of tasks with use + 2 levels.<BR>
>                     Chance of malfunction is Routine<BR>
> 4                   Difficulty level of tasks with use + 1 level<BR>
>                     Chance of malfunction is Difficult<BR>
><BR>
> Clear lines of sight are assumed when calculating burst radii.<BR>
> Faraday caged and fibre optic equipment are immune to all<BR>
> forms of EMP.<BR>
> Equipment served with power supplies with surge protection<BR>
> are immune at<BR>
> the 4 burst radii distance, unless specified to be<BR>
> unusually delicate or<BR>
> sensitive.<BR>
><BR>
> Other related topics :-<BR>
> nuclear weapons and theatre level EMP generation<BR>
> Masers as directed EMP weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
> (needs more sleep!)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:33:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Arthur Boff <ajboff@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2722<BR>
<BR>
<corejob><BR>
<BR>
You know, for some reason police get really upset<BR>
about things like this.<BR>
<BR>
</corejob><BR>
<BR>
Yes, the player realised this about two seconds after<BR>
he did the deed...<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:50:36 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
<BR>
Walter writes<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > For similar reasons (using FFS1) I'm begining to wonder if, in <BR>
> > situations where Meson Gun fire is unlikely, fixed defences might <BR>
> > become useful again. <BR>
> <BR>
> Depends on how likely it is that ortillery (or effective artillery) <BR>
> will come along.  Every grav vehicle in the inventory can probably <BR>
> move fast enough to avoid smiting, but dodging is not in a fixed <BR>
> fortification's job description.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
Though crafts might be fast enough to dodge and fix fortification unable <BR>
to do so the idea of fix fortification is not totally unrealistic.<BR>
But certain aspects must be kept in mind one building such a thing.<BR>
<BR>
First like all real-estate agents would say location, location, location.<BR>
This is the first principle of fortification, sense they must first be put <BR>
somewhere that the enemy must go, second the location must be <BR>
defensible.  The first is import because it makes it an important target, so <BR>
the enemy can not avoided or ignore it.  The second is probably the <BR>
greatest failing of all modern fortifications. Because most are line <BR>
fortifications and eventually have open flanks, that seem to be easily <BR>
flanked.<BR>
<BR>
A traditional fort sits on a supply lines or forced invasion route(ie the <BR>
valley)  While the modern line fortification usually stress across a whole <BR>
flank due to modern mechanized and weapons.  Verdun in WWI is a <BR>
good example of a fort that works.<BR>
<BR>
The line defense greatest weakness as I have stated is the size, they <BR>
cover to much and so are often over extended, under defended, and by-<BR>
passable.  The perfect example of this is Iraqs line in the Gulf War, it was <BR>
to large and thus left his right flank undefended. While the Casino line <BR>
was a much better construction, its flanks were anchored in the <BR>
mountains and it was relatively sort, ultimately even it was out flanked.<BR>
<BR>
If chosen right the next objective is to limit the approaches to the <BR>
fortification, this is often done with mind fields and small forward forts.  <BR>
This creates fields of fire, and reduces the ability of those grav crafts to <BR>
dodge.  Verdun is a prime example of forward forts, while Casino used the <BR>
machine gun, mines to create fields of fire.<BR>
<BR>
Finally one needs to look at weapons deployed and the material used in <BR>
the forts. I wont go into this because of the tons of variations in tech <BR>
levels.  But the weapon choice should vary like battleships in range and <BR>
firepower, with advance targeting systems.<BR>
Also if large enough having some sort of mobile force for offensive <BR>
operations would be good. e.g. the traditional Horse Cav in the American <BR>
West or Assault Grave craft, this helps to attract attention and gives an <BR>
extra punch.<BR>
<BR>
Obs Trav<BR>
<BR>
A great place to put a fortification would be around mountains starports, <BR>
civilian or military though military more likely, government builds and <BR>
good terrain.  Remember this about Traveller battles; they are often small <BR>
units and designed for quick assaults.  If you can force a battle at a <BR>
fortification, the defender is likely to win.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:48:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If a 500,000 dton ship is disabled and left vulnerable to<BR>
> boarding, the enemy could profit materially and informationally<BR>
> by getting it intact.  If this keeps them from nuking it<BR>
> outright, I could imaging protracted deck-by-deck fighting.<BR>
> If the defenders could hold out for a couple of weeks,<BR>
> friendly naval forces might return.  Life support systems would<BR>
> be crucial.  Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
As an attacker looking to capture a disabled ship, I would turn down the<BR>
power on my meson guns, just enough so that the meson beams produce a lethal<BR>
dose of radiation (recall that meson weapons produce gamma radiation from<BR>
the meson decay), and take out any resisting crew.<BR>
<BR>
I doubt that resistance would be seen in ther face of this tactic.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:47:05 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
> If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must <BR>
> be ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close <BR>
> proximity? <BR>
<BR>
Depends how much damage you want to do to vital ship systems.  <BR>
Radiation that will penetrate a starship-grade hull may scramble<BR>
the computers and control systems your intel boys are salivating<BR>
over long before the defending crew drops dead.<BR>
<BR>
> How about drilling a few holes in the hull and letting the air out?  <BR>
<BR>
The ship is probably already depressurized, perhaps except for<BR>
some heavily protected (and probably far into the interior) areas<BR>
like sick bay or a command center.<BR>
<BR>
> How about launching a dozen or so simultaneous attacks at multiple <BR>
> points to spread out the defenders? <BR>
<BR>
Bingo.  Make sure he's blind to timing and penetration points for <BR>
as long as possible, coordinate, and give him a good way to <BR>
surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:39:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: 14.5mm Russki<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>Subject: Re: Body Bunker Redux<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Or the old Soviet WWII 14.5mm Anti-tank rifles. The ammos fairly<BR>
>common, as the 14.5mm round is a common AA gun, and I'm sure there'll<BR>
>be some old rifles kicking around somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
	(OK, another reason I need to get signed up for this list on my home<BR>
account - no access to my reference books on the shelf at home....that and<BR>
trying to get through 30 backed-up digests from the long weekend)<BR>
	I once heard a funny story from a guy I met at a con (ConFurence9) two<BR>
years ago.  He claimed to have worked on FF&S and the story was regarding<BR>
the infamous TNE "Crunch Gun"  and a WWII 14.5mm Soviet semiautomatic<BR>
anti-tank gun.  Since some of the interested parties are probably members of<BR>
the list, and since I only heard the story second hand, I'll refrain from<BR>
stepping on anyone's toes.<BR>
	I, myself, ran into a problem with the FF&S rules while trying to design a<BR>
Thompson-Center Contender-like pistol in, saaaay .45-70.  The receiver<BR>
weight the rules required was reasonable if I wanted to make it<BR>
semi-automatic, but was nuts for a break-open single shot.  I just said<BR>
"ref's call" and took the weight out of a copy of _Guns & Ammo Annual_.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:57:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
>While the common perception of a Traveller commercial <BR>
>starship is of anarmed camp with better security than the<BR>
>Federal Reserve Bank, is it reallyreasonable to expect <BR>
>that traders and passemger liners in  the 3I are anymore <BR>
>secure than modern commercial ships ?<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  The Third Imperium is a vastly different situation<BR>
from the present day on one world.  If you get in trouble<BR>
on the ocean today, you can radio for help and it might<BR>
reach you in a very short time, even hours or less.  In the<BR>
Third Imperium, if you get in trouble in space, you can<BR>
radio for help and other ships in the area may be days or<BR>
up to a week away from you -- if there are any other ships.<BR>
 Forget about getting help from another world -- your radio<BR>
signal won't get there for years.  So you have to be able<BR>
to take care of some things yourself.<BR>
<BR>
The threat picture varies across the Imperium, of course,<BR>
and in other empires.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:00:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> With regard to Stygian Bliss, 'Accelerated thought processes' equates<BR>
> to the thought pressure of mania in my mind, or the thought disorder<BR>
> seen in psychosis.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm becoming less fond of Stygian Bliss as an intoxicant.<BR>
> Maybe it has a wide margin of safety, and the effects aren't quite so<BR>
> pronounced at the usual doses...<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
OK Robert.  I'm the first to admit I'm no 'medico', though I did spend 7<BR>
wasted years in a med lab as a toxicologist (and have seen more bodily fluid<BR>
than anyone ever should).  So my question to you.  I wanted Stygian Bliss to<BR>
be something akin to Fugu (sp?), i.e. a euphoric that is potentially deadly.<BR>
To add to it's allure, I borrowed form 'Dune' and decided one of it's<BR>
effects besides euphoria was a 'clearing and enhancing of thought'  (OK,<BR>
this IS traveller).  So, for game purposes, one could temporarily enhance<BR>
their intelligence.  Just the thing to liven up conversation at a dull<BR>
party.  Taken in the normal doses (a nice, refreshing, espresso-sized cup)<BR>
it is relatively safe.  Too, much though, and bad juju.<BR>
<BR>
OK, pure Star Trekesque techno-babble:  Perhaps the active ingredient<BR>
improves the efficiency of neural synapses, and an overdose becomes like<BR>
nerve agent poisoning.  I would love a more realistic (medically speaking)<BR>
justifications of effects.<BR>
<BR>
Your thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:01:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon <BR>
<BR>
>From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
<BR>
>Hey did you get to meet Stephanie Pierce?  She's the High<BR>
>Priestess of the Church of Elvis and used to run a cable<BR>
>show called "Where's the Art?"  I was on one of the<BR>
>episodes.  (don't ask me why)  :)<BR>
<BR>
I think I met her in front of the Church one buzzed<BR>
weeknight.  She was adjusting some technology.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:21:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
> Yes.  The Third Imperium is a vastly different situation<BR>
> from the present day on one world.  If you get in trouble<BR>
> on the ocean today, you can radio for help and it might<BR>
> reach you in a very short time, even hours or less.  In the<BR>
> Third Imperium, if you get in trouble in space, you can<BR>
> radio for help and other ships in the area may be days or<BR>
> up to a week away from you -- if there are any other ships.<BR>
>  Forget about getting help from another world -- your radio<BR>
> signal won't get there for years.  So you have to be able<BR>
> to take care of some things yourself.<BR>
><BR>
> The threat picture varies across the Imperium, of course,<BR>
> and in other empires.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Exactly my thought, Glenn.  I like to think in terms of late 18th/early 19th<BR>
century commercial vessels.  Guns were de rigueur.  The main difference<BR>
between commercial ships were the crews (men of war has much larger, better<BR>
trained combat crews) and space given over to cargo.  The structural<BR>
difference between cargo ships and smaller men of war were relatively minor.<BR>
Of course, given the crews and the absence of a need to create revenue,<BR>
warships could have much more extensive and complicated sails as well, and<BR>
better take advantage of the wind.<BR>
<BR>
This view of vessels seems to perfectly map with Traveller.  Merchant ships<BR>
are armed, but don't have the reserves or the trained crew for a straight<BR>
out battle.  Also, warships have the additional crew to make even ugly<BR>
boarding actions possible.  Warships have heavier 'scantlings' (read armor)<BR>
and don't have to give space over to cargo.  Still, a merchant vessel<BR>
captained by a retired naval officer and a decent crew (themselves veterans,<BR>
perhaps) will be no easy prey for pirates.  Intel for the pirates is going<BR>
to have to be pretty good in order to make risks of piracy pay off.<BR>
<BR>
Privately owned ships are also going to be something that most pirates avoid<BR>
as well (IMHO).  An owner/operator who has his/her whole life tied up in<BR>
their ship will be more inclined to fight it out versus a megacorp ship that<BR>
is heavily insured and has a hired crew that has nothing to lose by<BR>
surrendering (so long as the pirate doesn't have a reputation for<BR>
blood-thirstiness.  A smart pirate will treat his captives well, encouraging<BR>
future ships to surrender, rather than risk death in the cold of space).<BR>
Megacorps are likely to instruct their crews to surrender to protect<BR>
passengers, crews and ships (much like modern corporations instruct their<BR>
employees to cooperated with robbers).  They can always ransom their<BR>
relatively intact vessels later, and can afford to send their own 'special<BR>
ops' troops to hunt down the pirates at a more opportune time to 'set an<BR>
example' to anyone who get the idea that MegaCorps are 'easy pickings'.<BR>
Further, MegaCorps can send out 'Q-boats' crewed with their best, most<BR>
reliable combat types, disguised as peaceful merchants. Is that 500 ton<BR>
Oberlindes a fat trader laden with valuable trans-uranics?  Or is it a<BR>
heavily armored, 6 G killer with missiles up the wazoo, and crewed by a<BR>
bunch of corporate psychopaths?<BR>
<BR>
Just my thoughts.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Too much Patrick O'Brien" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:26:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must be<BR>
> ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close proximity?<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs") will work in<BR>
space. Today's ER weapons change the normally-occurring isotopes of a few<BR>
light metals which occur in soil into isotopes with short half-lives using<BR>
the weapon's neutron radiation. I don't think enough suitable isotopes would<BR>
exist in ship armor to use this effect in ship combat.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:31:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
> Doug,<BR>
><BR>
> *Oregon* experiences that. But it rarely happens in the Willamette<BR>
> Valley. One of the things I miss after growing up in Spokane, where we<BR>
> actually got *real* snow.<BR>
><BR>
> In Portland, I can recall some "real snow". About 3-4 times in the last<BR>
> 25 years. Hell, the city shuts down when the snowfall isn't bad enough<BR>
> to require *boots*.<BR>
><BR>
> If I can walk around in ordinary shoes and not get them filled with<BR>
> snow, that's not a "snowstorm", that's "light flurries". Maybe.<BR>
><BR>
> What we've gotten rather more often (but still infrequenctly) are ice<BR>
> storms. Now *those* can be a pain. Rain that freezes on impact gives<BR>
> everything a coating of ice, and makes for problems.<BR>
><BR>
> And in any case, remember that the climate is getting warmer. Back in<BR>
> the 1920s, the Willamette froze thick enough to drive cars on. It's<BR>
> unlikelly to do so in the foreseeable future. :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Leonard,<BR>
Having lived in Spokane (just like me--scary! Tsyduck(sp?) your day is<BR>
coming), you will appreciate this.  Portland does not have snow.  Snow is<BR>
when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front of you<BR>
house, trying to decide which one is your car.  Having said that, I know we<BR>
have some Finn Landers and Alaskans on this list.  I expect to hear 'Naw,<BR>
that's not snow, now here in [insert place] we have REAL snow.<BR>
<BR>
We have the same thing in our trav games.  Some characters are mighty proud<BR>
of their home worlds, and have to share with everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
"Tough Town?!  maybe to you.  I come from Regina Station, where the weak are<BR>
killed and eaten.  Heck, the grade-schoolers all carry knives, 'cause guns<BR>
aren't as much fun.  We gargle with nuclear waste, and a rape and a mugging<BR>
is just our way of saying cheerio".  Hey, just like New Yorkers.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:33:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
> > and increases clarity of thought. Unfortunately, the tea is<BR>
> also toxic if<BR>
> > taken in more than small quantities. Death from Stygian Bliss<BR>
> results from<BR>
> > slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the<BR>
> thought processes<BR>
> > are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
><BR>
> That sounds like an intensely unpleasant way to die.<BR>
><BR>
> <<accelerated thought processes of victim>><BR>
><BR>
> "Hmmm.  From the way my body is responding, the cup of Stygian Bliss I<BR>
> finished three minutes, seventeen-point-two-three seconds ago has caused<BR>
> me to cross the threshold from pleasant afternoon to doomed.  I estimate<BR>
> that I have thirty-seven minutes of consciousness left before my<BR>
> autonomic nervous system degrades to the point where my body is no<BR>
> longer able to continue functioning at a level consistent with<BR>
> consciousness.  Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable of treating<BR>
> Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away...."<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Usually, you get something like "wow, it all makes sense.  That's It!! The<BR>
meaning of existence is aaarrrggghh..."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2729<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2730<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
Re: real snow<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: real snow<BR>
Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
RE: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
Re: FFS3<BR>
RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Neutron Bombs (was:  Boarding)<BR>
Re: real snow<BR>
Re: 14.5mm Russki<BR>
Re: Neutron Bombs (was:  Boarding)<BR>
RE: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
RE: 14.5mm Russki<BR>
New on travllercentral.com<BR>
Re: The Nine Million Names of G-d <BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: OT: Magic<BR>
Re: Jury Duty<BR>
Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale <BR>
Re: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:35:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Exactly my thought, Glenn.  I like to think in terms of late 18th/early<BR>
19th<BR>
> century commercial vessels.  Guns were de rigueur.  The main difference<BR>
> between commercial ships were the crews (men of war has much larger,<BR>
better<BR>
> trained combat crews) and space given over to cargo.  The structural<BR>
> difference between cargo ships and smaller men of war were relatively<BR>
minor.<BR>
> Of course, given the crews and the absence of a need to create revenue,<BR>
> warships could have much more extensive and complicated sails as well, and<BR>
> better take advantage of the wind.<BR>
<BR>
I think that this vision of the Traveller universe has been heavily<BR>
influenced by where we have played the game. I for one, have never played<BR>
anything outside the Spinward Marches. This view may be perfectly accurate<BR>
there, but I envision most of the 3I as being much more peaceful, so that<BR>
armed merchants are really only a frontier thing.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:40:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Robert<BR>
> O'Connor<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 1:42 AM<BR>
> To: TML<BR>
> Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> > Death from Stygian Bliss results from<BR>
> > slow failure of the autonomic nervous system, even as the<BR>
> thought processes<BR>
> > are accelerated and expanded."<BR>
><BR>
> Slow = hours, days, months, years?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, slow as in hours.<BR>
><BR>
> On the other hand, death by anticholinesterase (organophosphate<BR>
> insecticides and war gases) due to acetylcholine excess (the primary<BR>
<BR>
Like ortho-ethyl-s2-di-isopropyl-amino-ethyl-methyl-phosphono-flouridate?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, but I was feeling overwhelmed by the medico language.  The above is<BR>
commonly known as VX, and for some reason, has always stuck in my brains.<BR>
That, and the fact that frogs use there eyeballs to swallow.  It's a weird<BR>
world.  How much weirder will alien worlds be?<BR>
<BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Tod "IT geek, former chemist" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:43:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, death by anticholinesterase (organophosphate<BR>
> insecticides and war gases) due to acetylcholine excess (the primary<BR>
> postganglionic transmitter in the parasympathetic division of the<BR>
> nervous system) is prompt (minutes) without appropriate support.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Robert,<BR>
<BR>
Meant to ask our resident phiz.  Curare analogs use succinyl choline, is<BR>
that correct?  I can't remember anymore.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:43:17 -0500<BR>
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: real snow<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Snow is when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front<BR>
> of you<BR>
> house, trying to decide which one is your car.<BR>
<BR>
    I thought real snow was when you came back in the evening, and looked at the<BR>
white lumps in front of your skis, trying to decide which one is your house...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Stormhound<BR>
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge<BR>
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd<BR>
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv<BR>
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:50:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
> Actually Classical Greek ship weapons were horrendously destructive -<BR>
> they just had a short range. A fair amount of naval wishful thinking up<BR>
> until WWII was from captains who would really have preferred decisive<BR>
> weapons like the old ram to pounding each other with shells for hours<BR>
> on end. Even WWI battleship/battlecruiser actions had quite low sinkage<BR>
> rates, given how many hours they went on for. Boarding is definately a<BR>
> post-ram idea, mainly from the age of sail, where the chance of<BR>
> actually sinking an enemy with cannon-fire was practically nil.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
That depends.  There are more than a few recorded incidents of ships being<BR>
drooped to the bottom.  Especially by the British, whole had a fondness for<BR>
hull shots.  The Bonhomme Richard vs. the Serapis comes to mind.  Jones,<BR>
having won the day, was forced to transfer his flag as the 'Richard' slipped<BR>
under.<BR>
<BR>
What always bothered me about fighting in the age of sail was not so much<BR>
the weapons of the day (which were pretty destructive), but the fact that<BR>
you were going to battle in a floating tinder-box.  Tar, turpentine, aged<BR>
wood.  Sort of like strapping on a tank of gasoline before charging the<BR>
enemy position. Come to think of it, some people did! I want a 'safe'<BR>
flamethrower.  Safe for me, that is.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "rambling today" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:51:11 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: real snow<BR>
<BR>
Stormhound wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Snow is when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front<BR>
> > of you<BR>
> > house, trying to decide which one is your car.<BR>
> <BR>
>     I thought real snow was when you came back in the evening, and looked at the<BR>
> white lumps in front of your skis, trying to decide which one is your house...<BR>
<BR>
Okay, I can't resist any more.<BR>
<BR>
Snow is when you CAN'T come back in the evening, because there so much of<BR>
that white stuff covering the highway that you're trapped on the hill. Of<BR>
course, that's pretty much the definition of paradise for me ...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I think that this vision of the Traveller universe has been heavily<BR>
> influenced by where we have played the game. I for one, have never played<BR>
> anything outside the Spinward Marches. This view may be perfectly accurate<BR>
> there, but I envision most of the 3I as being much more peaceful, so that<BR>
> armed merchants are really only a frontier thing.<BR>
<BR>
Armed merchants are probably less of a 'frontier' thing than a 'minor world'<BR>
thing.  If you yell for help within the 100D limit of a major world, you're<BR>
going to have help within an hour.  The problem is that near a minor world <BR>
there may be no-one to help you.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:53:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I think that this vision of the Traveller universe has been heavily<BR>
> influenced by where we have played the game. I for one, have never played<BR>
> anything outside the Spinward Marches. This view may be perfectly accurate<BR>
> there, but I envision most of the 3I as being much more peaceful, so that<BR>
> armed merchants are really only a frontier thing.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Agreed.  We game in the 'frontier' as well.  One can only imagine the<BR>
comments a ship from the frontier would receive in civilized space.  With<BR>
all those turrets and such, they might take you for a pirate (which they've<BR>
read about).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:57:43 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS3<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:                                                <BR>
> Jens Rydholm [has an errata-free copy of FFS2], IIRC.               <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
Well, I do have such a copy, but it is not complete yet. Right now, it<BR>
is only possible to design spaceships (I haven't cleaned up the other <BR>
parts yet). Some weapons (those used in spaceships) are also possible.<BR>
                                                                      <BR>
I am working on completing this beast, but summer has a tendency of   <BR>
slowing down such work. It was almost pure luck that I caught this    <BR>
post (I read the TML about once a week during summer, so I get *some* <BR>
mail).                                                                <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
For those interested, I have been in contact with Marc about this.    <BR>
More about this later (in a month or two perhaps).                    <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
Perhaps we should incorporate the following :-                        <BR>
<snip of long list of suggestions>                                    <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
IMO, all additional options and alternative technologies for FF&S are <BR>
good. It's a lot easier for a user to take away something than it is  <BR>
to add something...                                                   <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
I will concern myself with writing an errata-free version of the FF&S2<BR>
first. When I'm done, I might add things to it...  *saving Rob's post <BR>
for later*                                                            <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm                                             <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:00:35 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
"Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thursday, July 06, 2000 6:04 AM<BR>
> Paul Kunnap said,<BR>
> <BR>
> > I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in<BR>
> > Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships<BR>
> > that the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence<BR>
> <BR>
> I've wondered about this.  I've heard talk about scuttling charges and<BR>
> such do deny the enemy anything useful in the event a vessel needs to<BR>
> be abandoned, and I seem to recall a reference in M0 to ships having a<BR>
> protocol for erasing maps/navigation/etc information in case of<BR>
> hostile alien encounter.<BR>
> <BR>
> I just have a problem with the idea of placing explosives<BR>
> around/within all of your vital systems.  It seems that if these where<BR>
> in place it would make the ships vastly more likely to suffer<BR>
> catastrophic damage during combat.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the easiest thing to do would not be to use multiple <BR>
conventional charges, and instead use 1 nuke.  A very simple <BR>
fission bomb consists of two subcritical masses of uranium or <BR>
plutonium in a long tube, with explosive behind each mass.  Stick <BR>
that in the center of the ship.  Then to prevent accidental <BR>
explosions store the two explosive charges in nearby cabinets and <BR>
have a thick lead plate in front of each mass of plutonium.  When <BR>
abandon ship times comes, the last person off-ship pulls the two <BR>
lead plates, sticks the charges in their appropriate slots and sets <BR>
the timer.  Even a really small interior fission explosion will turn the <BR>
largest traveller ship into a glowing pile of junk.  I'd expect such <BR>
things to be used on all critical military and spy vessels.  <BR>
<BR>
The only other use I can see for these bombs is on free traders <BR>
owned by *truly* crazed captains.  In such a case, use a really <BR>
large fusion bomb, and as a pirate ship closes in and the pirates <BR>
get ready to board, the captain informs them about this bomb, and <BR>
tells them that if they don't surrender *now* the bomb goes off and <BR>
both ships are history.  Not a free trader that I'd want to be on, but <BR>
it could happen.  <BR>
<BR>
Of course, after the first stunt like that (if it worked) all sane <BR>
members of the crew would likely leave at the next port (if not <BR>
before).  At this point, the captain needs a new crew, and hires the <BR>
PCs (without informing them of the little surprise the ship has in <BR>
store for pirates)  :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:04:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Neutron Bombs (was:  Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
><BR>
>Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must be<BR>
>> ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close<BR>
proximity?<BR>
><BR>
>I don't think that enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs") will work<BR>
in<BR>
>space. Today's ER weapons change the normally-occurring isotopes of a few<BR>
>light metals which occur in soil into isotopes with short half-lives using<BR>
>the weapon's neutron radiation. I don't think enough suitable isotopes<BR>
would<BR>
>exist in ship armor to use this effect in ship combat.<BR>
<BR>
	A modern fusion bomb operated in three distinct stages - first, a standard<BR>
fission bomb (using U-235) is detonated, which heats and compresses a<BR>
mixture of deuterium and tritium so it can fuse.  This creates a LOT of<BR>
energy, and a LOT of high-energy neutrons left over from the tritium fusing<BR>
into helium.  These neutrons are harnessed by adding a casing to the whole<BR>
bome made of U-238 (or is it 239?..gotta check my references when I get<BR>
home).  While normally relatively stable, add a few more neutrons and it<BR>
comes apart, adding still more energy to the explosion. IIRC, a primitive<BR>
neutron bomb merely eliminates the outer casing.  The now-smaller warhead<BR>
releases those neutrons which go sleeting through everything in the<BR>
vicinity, including the people.  They are hard to stop, too, with just<BR>
masonry and cement.  One book I read on bomb-shelter design recommended<BR>
mixing iron scrap into the cement.<BR>
	That last bit is the important part....I have a feeling that the hull of<BR>
the ship would be too good a barrier to the neutron radiation for the bombs<BR>
to be very effective.  The PAW used in space combat, for example, fires<BR>
neutrons - protons, being charged, would disperse too quickly.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:06:38 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: real snow<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Erwin Fritz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Stormhound wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Snow is when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front<BR>
> > > of you<BR>
> > > house, trying to decide which one is your car.<BR>
> > <BR>
> >     I thought real snow was when you came back in the evening, and looked at the<BR>
> > white lumps in front of your skis, trying to decide which one is your house...<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay, I can't resist any more.<BR>
> <BR>
> Snow is when you CAN'T come back in the evening, because there so much of<BR>
> that white stuff covering the highway that you're trapped on the hill. Of<BR>
> course, that's pretty much the definition of paradise for me ...<BR>
> <BR>
I don't know how to define real snow, but I know it when I see it.  And I<BR>
saw it in Hokkaido.  And Mitsuru just does not understand that if he<BR>
thinks he's going to marry me, we're going to have to live someplace that<BR>
isn't as warm as I'd like, probably, but isn't as cold as Hokkaido.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:22:21 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: 14.5mm Russki<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
>         I, myself, ran into a problem with the FF&S rules while trying to design a<BR>
> Thompson-Center Contender-like pistol in, saaaay .45-70.  The receiver<BR>
> weight the rules required was reasonable if I wanted to make it<BR>
> semi-automatic, but was nuts for a break-open single shot.  I just said<BR>
> "ref's call" and took the weight out of a copy of _Guns & Ammo Annual_.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Well, yes, the FFS rules really didn't work well with anything too far<BR>
removed from the norm. Reciever weights and lengths, in particular, get<BR>
all wackydoodle very quickly. Don't get me started on the 10 kg bipod!<BR>
The TC .45/70 just couldn't be done well at all, in wither FFS or FFS2.<BR>
(For that matter, it comes out longer and heavier using Guns, Guns,<BR>
Guns, too, though closer to reality.) OTOH, FFS2 nailed my S&W .38 six<BR>
inch revolver right on the money. Like I said, once you stray from the<BR>
middle of the road things get weird, and 14.5 mm rifles are weird.<BR>
<BR>
My personal call wrt 'real-life' weapons is to cull the stats from real<BR>
life and not design them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Neutron Bombs (was:  Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler writes:<BR>
<BR>
>      A modern fusion bomb operated in three distinct stages - first, a<BR>
> standard fission bomb (using U-235) is detonated, which heats and<BR>
> compresses a mixture of deuterium and tritium so it can fuse.  This creates<BR>
> a LOT of energy, and a LOT of high-energy neutrons left over from the<BR>
> tritium fusing into helium.  These neutrons are harnessed by adding a casing<BR>
> to the whole bome made of U-238 (or is it 239?..gotta check my references<BR>
> when I get home).<BR>
This is not quite correct.  The fission bomb heats a mix of lithium deuteride<BR>
and lithium tritide, causing D-T and T-T fission.  This releases neutrons,<BR>
some of which are absorbed by the lithium, producing helium, energy, and more <BR>
tritium to continue the reaction.  LiD fusion by itself produces no neutrons<BR>
(it uses a neutron catalyst): LiD + n -> He + T + D -> He + He + n.  Of course,<BR>
some neutrons escape, so you add LiT seeds to provide extra neutrons.  A<BR>
neutron bomb has a much higher percentage of LiT.<BR>
<BR>
Note that you can capture neutrons escaping the bomb with a shell of U-238 <BR>
(as you note) to gain more energy.  However, merely removing that shell does<BR>
not create a neutron bomb.<BR>
<BR>
>      That last bit is the important part....I have a feeling that the hull<BR>
> of the ship would be too good a barrier to the neutron radiation for the<BR>
> bombs to be very effective.  The PAW used in space combat, for example,<BR>
> fires neutrons - protons, being charged, would disperse too quickly.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it fires neutral atoms -- you can't accelerate neutrons in a particle<BR>
accelerator.  The accelerator accelerates ions, and then at the end either uses<BR>
a charge stripper to remove excess electrons or add a jet of electrons (I'm<BR>
not sure which is considered more effective).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:28:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> tim@premier.net<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 10:51 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Walter writes<BR>
><BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > > For similar reasons (using FFS1) I'm begining to wonder if, in<BR>
> > > situations where Meson Gun fire is unlikely, fixed defenses might<BR>
> > > become useful again.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Depends on how likely it is that ortillery (or effective artillery)<BR>
> > will come along.  Every grav vehicle in the inventory can probably<BR>
> > move fast enough to avoid smiting, but dodging is not in a fixed<BR>
> > fortification's job description.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
> Though crafts might be fast enough to dodge and fix fortification unable<BR>
> to do so the idea of fix fortification is not totally unrealistic.<BR>
> But certain aspects must be kept in mind one building such a thing.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
Why do fortifications need to be fixed. Just a thought, but what about a<BR>
fortress that has the capability (via gravs) to be moved, albeit slowly.  A<BR>
sort of mega-super tank.  Think 'floating' fortress.  Just musing.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 13:44:40 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: 14.5mm Russki<BR>
<BR>
> >Or the old Soviet WWII 14.5mm Anti-tank rifles. The ammos fairly<BR>
> >common, as the 14.5mm round is a common AA gun, and I'm sure there'll<BR>
> >be some old rifles kicking around somewhere.<BR>
><BR>
> 	(OK, another reason I need to get signed up for this list on my home<BR>
> account - no access to my reference books on the shelf at home....that and<BR>
> trying to get through 30 backed-up digests from the long weekend)<BR>
> 	I once heard a funny story from a guy I met at a con<BR>
> (ConFurence9) two<BR>
> years ago.  He claimed to have worked on FF&S and the story was regarding<BR>
> the infamous TNE "Crunch Gun"  and a WWII 14.5mm Soviet semiautomatic<BR>
> anti-tank gun.  Since some of the interested parties are probably<BR>
> members of<BR>
> the list, and since I only heard the story second hand, I'll refrain from<BR>
> stepping on anyone's toes.<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone considered building a 'soft-recoil' AMR (Anti-Material Rifle)?<BR>
<BR>
In case some on the list are unfamiliar with 'soft-recoil' weapons, the<BR>
barrel/breach mechanism are free to move in the receiver, and are held to<BR>
the rear under heavy spring pressure.  On firing, the barrel/breach assembly<BR>
are released to fly forward.  The weapon fires just as the barrel/breach<BR>
reach full forward movement, thus the recoil must overcome the forward<BR>
momentum of the weapon.  It makes for relatively long lock time, but recoil<BR>
is significantly reduced.  The South Africans used this principle to mount<BR>
105mm tank guns on light armored cars, and a designer whose name escapes me<BR>
demonstrated a .50BMG machinegun that could be fired off-hand (standing) by<BR>
a single infantryman.  Browning also uses this system in one of their<BR>
tap/skeet shotgun.<BR>
<BR>
> 	I, myself, ran into a problem with the FF&S rules while<BR>
> trying to design a<BR>
> Thompson-Center Contender-like pistol in, saaaay .45-70.  The receiver<BR>
> weight the rules required was reasonable if I wanted to make it<BR>
> semi-automatic, but was nuts for a break-open single shot.  I just said<BR>
> "ref's call" and took the weight out of a copy of _Guns & Ammo Annual_.<BR>
><BR>
> 	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
<BR>
Join the club , Rod.  I've had real trouble duplicating many existent<BR>
firearms with FFS2.  I do the same thing you do.  When the rules don't fit,<BR>
chuck 'em.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:02:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: New on travllercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
I started going through all my old Trav notes (20+ years of continuous<BR>
gaming) for some old goodies to post on the website.  The latest is<BR>
"advanced small ship combat".  I did this up back when High Guard first came<BR>
out (1980 I believe), and have posted it verbatim.  I haven't done any ship<BR>
based adventuring in eons, so I can't say anything with regards to whether<BR>
this set of rules is even worth looking at, but comments are welcome.  See<BR>
http://www.travellercentral./com in the "House Rules" section.<BR>
Interestingly, with all the recent posts about boarding, there are included<BR>
rules for RAMMING! (ouch!).  I believe we were playing lots of "Wooden ships<BR>
and iron men" about that time.<BR>
<BR>
Coming attractions:  Loads of NPCs, mini-adventures, equipment, aliens and<BR>
animals.<BR>
<BR>
The "Mercenary's Guide to Weapons" (http://weapons.travellercentral.com) is<BR>
growing slowly, as I have to find time to generate stats for all the stuff I<BR>
have. I've been reading ACQ/T4, and am impressed, so I will probably be<BR>
including stats for these as I get more familiar with the systems (all CT<BR>
stats for now).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to Dom, Glenn and Doug (and everyone else) for taking the time to<BR>
explain the mysteries of T4/ACQ to someone trapped in 1977.<BR>
<BR>
Visitors, submissions and comments are always welcome.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:08:04 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: The Nine Million Names of G-d <BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >the term God is ambiguous<BR>
> >and could refer to most any male deity. Therefore when discussing<BR>
> >him it is more precise to use its proper name. <BR>
<BR>
> Jews never use that form of the name; it is invariably "Adonai"<BR>
> in prayer; "Hashem" (lit. "the Name") in non-prayer contexts.<BR>
> When Jews discuss the entity so designated in ordinary discourse<BR>
> in the vernacular, it is usual to use the local term equivalent<BR>
> to "God" <BR>
> In Islam, the usage is always "Allah", regardless of language or<BR>
> context.<BR>
> It is therefore appropriate to use "God" or "G-d" to designate<BR>
> that entity when the language of the context is English.<BR>
<BR>
Jews and Muslims are also monotheists, therefore their usage <BR>
also presupposes monotheism. For me to use this usage would <BR>
also presuppose monotheism. The fact that God or G-d or Allah <BR>
is considered appropriate by them proves absolutely nothing.<BR>
<BR>
God = Male deity of your choice. God does not equal any particular<BR>
deity, except within the internal usage of that religion. Thus <BR>
God is too vague a term to use to refer to any particular god <BR>
(or goddess, or divine being or variable, multiple, changeable, <BR>
and/or nonexistent gender). While it may be statistically likely<BR>
that a westerner is referring to this particular god when he says<BR>
God I find it presumptuous to assume it or to use language which<BR>
assumes it. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:13:22 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
> >If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't need<BR>
> >to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these days,<BR>
> >and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a genuine<BR>
> >threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript them?<BR>
> >This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of conscription<BR>
> >is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
<BR>
> Yes.  Despite the films of lines outside the recruiting offices, they did<BR>
> need to draft men in huge numbers.  You see, everybody was trying to enlist<BR>
> in the Navy, and avoid going to war with a rifle in their hands.<BR>
<BR>
Then to get more people to enlist in the Army their rate of<BR>
pay and/or conditions of employment should have been raised. [1] <BR>
If the quantity of Army people supplied by the labor market <BR>
did not meet the quantity demanded than the labor market was <BR>
not at equilibrium. <BR>
<BR>
[1] Or navy pay and/or conditions of employment lowered.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:20:57 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Magic<BR>
<BR>
First off I don't think magic is off topic since magic<BR>
and psionics may be just different words for the same<BR>
phenomenon and psionics is definitely on topic for Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller Special psionics which (in CT) might require a<BR>
focus can easily be seen as magic. What is the _functional_<BR>
difference between a Traveller Special psionicist who, as<BR>
their Special power, can use awareness on others to regenerate<BR>
their wounds but requires a focus to do so and a fantasy<BR>
clerical magic user who can heal other peoples wounds with<BR>
a spell but requires their holy symbol as a material component<BR>
to do so? I don't see much of a functional difference.<BR>
<BR>
In GURPS, and in GURPS Traveller, Psionics can easily be used <BR>
as 'magic', for details see the Pyramid article (subscribers<BR>
only AFAIK) on Ritual Psionics.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:32:10 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
Jury duty here in Anchorage Alaska, at least as experienced<BR>
by me, is a process where you get a call us within weeks<BR>
of your eighteenth birthday. You show up, are called for<BR>
service, and sit around all morning while the judge and<BR>
the lawyers question each potential member in succession.<BR>
When they get to you you politely explain why you would not<BR>
vote to convict in this case and you are excused. This process<BR>
repeats itself every twelve to fifteen months for six<BR>
years or so. Then you are (apparently) placed on the 'don't<BR>
call' list by the judge and are left in peace for a decade<BR>
or so at which time the process repeats itself and you are<BR>
again called every year to fifteen months.<BR>
<BR>
You are forced to get up early, drive downtown, pay your<BR>
own parking, miss work (and loose pay for doing so) to<BR>
wait around to be examined in open court in front of<BR>
dozens of people and forced to explain your political<BR>
views. When you do so the judge looks at you very strangely<BR>
and says you can go. One month later you get a check<BR>
for $5.00 US. no matter what you write on the jury duty<BR>
form you can not be excused by the court clerks so you have<BR>
to go downtown at a very early hour and wait around half the<BR>
day to explain this to the judge.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:41:31 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale <BR>
<BR>
> SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > One of my offlist contacts, Rob Prior asked me:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > >I'm trying to calculate the scale of the Rafm Traveller starship<BR>
> > >miniatures, and am getting screwy results.  Does anyone have the answer?<BR>
> > Anyone know the answer?<BR>
<BR>
They are not to scale. The (100 ton) Scouts are about two thirds<BR>
of the volume of the (800 ton) Mercenary Cruiser AKA Happy<BR>
fun ball. The (400 ton) Survey Ship is larger than the Happy fun<BR>
ball. The various boats seem to be to about the same scale as each<BR>
other but this scale does not match the scale of the ships.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:49:46 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:43:07 -0400 (EDT), "The Roc"<BR>
<roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Before we start here, you get notice about 1-month beforehand, and that has<BR>
>a questionnaire - but it's basically comfirming your name, address, etc...<BR>
>nothing more than that, not where you work or anything.  But it does include<BR>
>your first option for not playing along, such as work commitments, illness,<BR>
>etc.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, we get that, also.  Sorry for neglecting it.<BR>
<BR>
>Upon attending on the first day, we also have the talk about what is<BR>
>expected and how the system works, then the bailiff simply "calls the roll"<BR>
>by going through the jury cards, asking if anyone present didn't have their<BR>
>name called (and if so, they sort out why).  Then you wait until you go down<BR>
>to the courts for empanelling.<BR>
<BR>
Also consistent with my experience.  Overlooked simply because I<BR>
knew it all coming in, and was essentially "tuned out".<BR>
<BR>
>Can you please clear something up for me...?  Are you saying that you attend<BR>
>empanelling once, and if not selected, you are dismissed for the next few<BR>
>years?  Here, if you are not selected, you are called back until your term<BR>
>is finished - for as many trials as they need your panel for over that<BR>
>period.<BR>
<BR>
Yes.  Not too many years ago, there was a bit of reform around<BR>
here, reducing the excuses and automatic excusals (cops, lawyers,<BR>
and doctors, for instance, are no longer exempt from service). We<BR>
also went from a separate jury roll to the courts using the<BR>
voter, DMV, and Public Assistance rolls, to reduce the number of<BR>
eligibles missed.  The draw is still random, but one of the<BR>
automatic excusals (as opposed to delay) is now "I served at this<BR>
level within the last x years".  This is to prevent the burden<BR>
from falling on the same people too often; prior to these<BR>
reforms, my mother was called every year like clockwork - and,<BR>
after the third time, protested every year like clockwork, and<BR>
got excused roughly two-thirds of the time.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2730<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2731<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Oregon <BR>
Re: looking for players and GM OT:<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
re:  Patrick O'Brian in Space <BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: Boarding <BR>
Re: Military vs Civilian ships<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: Military vs. Civilian ships<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:56:47 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon <BR>
<BR>
Did you know she gave up being a lawyer to do that?<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 3:01 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
> <BR>
> >Hey did you get to meet Stephanie Pierce?  She's the High<BR>
> >Priestess of the Church of Elvis and used to run a cable<BR>
> >show called "Where's the Art?"  I was on one of the<BR>
> >episodes.  (don't ask me why)  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> I think I met her in front of the Church one buzzed<BR>
> weeknight.  She was adjusting some technology.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
> http://im.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:57:42 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM OT:<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard,<BR>
> Having lived in Spokane (just like me--scary! Tsyduck(sp?) your day is<BR>
> coming), you will appreciate this.  Portland does not have snow.  Snow is<BR>
> when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front of you<BR>
> house, trying to decide which one is your car.  Having said that, I know we<BR>
> have some Finn Landers and Alaskans on this list.  I expect to hear 'Naw,<BR>
> that's not snow, now here in [insert place] we have REAL snow.<BR>
<BR>
Anchorage, Alaska gets only about six feet of snow a year<BR>
and it is rare to get more than a foot per day even during<BR>
a snow storm. Nor do we typically have high winds. I have<BR>
only had the where is my car experience twice in ten years of <BR>
driving. It is far more frequent to have the leave work at<BR>
the end of the day and spend twenty minutes cleaning the snow <BR>
off of your car. While you are doing this it is still snowing<BR>
so you have to take another five minutes to clean off the snow<BR>
a second time and three minutes to clean it off a third time<BR>
and one minute to clean it off a forth time and thirty seconds<BR>
to clean it off a fifth time. Then you hop in your car and<BR>
drive home hoping that you won't be blind sided by some idiot<BR>
who only cleared a one foot square section of snow off of his<BR>
front windshield while the rest of his car resembles a slowly<BR>
moving snow drift.<BR>
<BR>
Now if you really want snow you should move to Valdez Alaska<BR>
where a good snowstorm has been known to completely bury<BR>
two story houses (no I am not exaggerating).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:00:54 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:43:07 -0400 (EDT), eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On 07/06/00 at 01:34 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have<BR>
>>added to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
<BR>
>You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems<BR>
>handle this too. I know the French have a different method for<BR>
>conducting trials, are there some other methods that the TML<BR>
>members are familar with that you'd care to tell us about?<BR>
<BR>
I can't speak to the French civil tort system, but I have read<BR>
that in the criminal system, the two important differences are<BR>
that the judge is empowered as an investigator, and the burden of<BR>
proof is on the accused.<BR>
<BR>
On a peripherally-related note, there are other ways to<BR>
adjudicate disputes than the jury trials that have been discussed<BR>
in this thread; there is, for example, "might makes right",<BR>
a.k.a., Trial by Combat (you don't hire a shyster, you hire a<BR>
champion), Trial by Ordeal (if she floats, she's a witch!) ... if<BR>
you've ever read _The_Dosadi_Experiment_, consider the<BR>
possibilities inherent in Gowachin law, or (read _Whipping_Star_,<BR>
too) the implications of the Caleban Contract.  Add imagination<BR>
to taste...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:02:06 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snips description of Stygian Bliss poisoning>><BR>
<BR>
> > Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable<BR>
> > of treating<BR>
> > Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away...."<BR>
> <BR>
> "Hmmm... I'd better call for a MedEvac and then take the dose of Fast<BR>
> Drug I keep for such emergencies."<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, so one subjective<BR>
> minute is 1 hour of real time...<BR>
<BR>
This solution does, of course, lend itself to the all-crucial,<BR>
all-dreaded Drug Interaction, should the referee require such as a plot<BR>
device (for instance, to turn the PC from a latent to an active psi<BR>
talent).  Unless, of course, the PCs who planned to indulge successfully<BR>
researched the pharmocology of Stygian Bliss beforehand (say, a<BR>
Formidable Research roll [Difficult if the PC first makes an Average<BR>
Medical or Difficult Steward roll]).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:10:02 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
> > If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must<BR>
> > be ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close<BR>
> > proximity?<BR>
> <BR>
> Depends how much damage you want to do to vital ship systems.<BR>
> Radiation that will penetrate a starship-grade hull may scramble<BR>
> the computers and control systems your intel boys are salivating<BR>
> over long before the defending crew drops dead.<BR>
<BR>
As one of those intel boys, I want both electronics _and_ crewbeings as<BR>
intact as possible....<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
 <BR>
> > How about launching a dozen or so simultaneous attacks at multiple<BR>
> > points to spread out the defenders?<BR>
> <BR>
> Bingo.  Make sure he's blind to timing and penetration points for<BR>
> as long as possible, coordinate, and give him a good way to<BR>
> surrender.<BR>
<BR>
That should do the trick.  If not, that's an SEH just waiting to happen<BR>
for _some_ poor schmuck....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:27:41 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
<BR>
>	On really big ships, how long could boarding actions go<BR>
on? If a 500,000 dton ship is disabled and left >vulnerable<BR>
to boarding, the enemy could profit materially <BR>
>and informationally by getting it intact.  If this keeps<BR>
>them from nuking it outright, I could imaging protracted <BR>
>deck-by-deck fighting.<BR>
>	If the defenders could hold out for a couple of >weeks,<BR>
friendly naval forces might return.  Life support <BR>
>systems would be crucial.  <BR>
<BR>
>From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
><BR>
>How about drilling a few holes in the hull and letting the<BR>
>air out?  <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure how important the ship's life support systems<BR>
are.  How long can one live in vaccsuits, combat armor, and<BR>
battle dress?  A few weeks does not seem impossible to me<BR>
from a physical perspective, although psychologically it<BR>
seems to me that training in extended wear of body armor<BR>
would be crucial.  <BR>
<BR>
How much air and water are integral to vaccsuits, etc.? <BR>
What are the sources of resupply aboard ship?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:37:55 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Fixed Fortifications (longish)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Walter writes<BR>
> ><BR>
> > > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > > > For similar reasons (using FFS1) I'm begining to wonder if, in<BR>
> > > > situations where Meson Gun fire is unlikely, fixed defenses might<BR>
> > > > become useful again.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Depends on how likely it is that ortillery (or effective artillery)<BR>
> > > will come along.  Every grav vehicle in the inventory can probably<BR>
> > > move fast enough to avoid smiting, but dodging is not in a fixed<BR>
> > > fortification's job description.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Walt Smith<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Though crafts might be fast enough to dodge and fix fortification unable<BR>
> > to do so the idea of fix fortification is not totally unrealistic.<BR>
> > But certain aspects must be kept in mind one building such a thing.<BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> Why do fortifications need to be fixed. Just a thought, but what about a<BR>
> fortress that has the capability (via gravs) to be moved, albeit slowly.  A<BR>
> sort of mega-super tank.  Think 'floating' fortress.  Just musing.<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
Because then they wouldnt be fixed  :  )  I would have to call them <BR>
mobile forts, and will face many of the same problems as grav craft <BR>
or starship, except be slower and more costly to maintain.  So <BR>
though they might exist and may even be praticale in some <BR>
situations, there are  better ways of doing this. Fixed <BR>
foritifcations, large ground froces or Starships all do a better job.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:35:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Patrick O'Brian in Space <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
>Subject: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby<BR>
>Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> Exactly my thought, Glenn.  I like to think in terms of <BR>
>>late 18th/early19th century commercial vessels.  Guns<BR>
>>were de rigueur.  The main difference between commercial <BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin replied:<BR>
>I think that this vision of the Traveller universe has<BR>
>been heavily influenced by where we have played the game. <BR>
>I for one, have never played anything outside the Spinward<BR>
<BR>
>Marches. This view may be perfectly accurate there, but I <BR>
>envision most of the 3I as being much more peaceful, so<BR>
>that armed merchants are really only a frontier thing.<BR>
<BR>
That's what I was thinking of when I referred to different<BR>
threat pictures.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:42:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>What always bothered me about fighting in the age of sail<BR>
>was not so much the weapons of the day (which were pretty <BR>
>destructive), but the fact that you were going to battle <BR>
>in a floating tinder-box.  Tar, turpentine, aged wood.  <BR>
<BR>
And don't forget the gunpowder surrounded by the tar,<BR>
turpentine, and aged wood. <BR>
<BR>
I used to play a wargame, done by SPI I think, that<BR>
simulated warfare in the age of sail.  Each ship covered<BR>
two hexes.  It was a lot of fun.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:46:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding <BR>
<BR>
>From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
>Of course, after the first stunt like that (if it worked) <BR>
>all sane members of the crew would likely leave at the<BR>
>next port (if not before).  At this point, the captain <BR>
>needs a new crew, and hires the PCs (without informing <BR>
>them of the little surprise the ship has in store for<BR>
>pirates)<BR>
<BR>
Captain:  Don't go into that compartment.  <BR>
PC #1:  Why not? what's in there?<BR>
Captain:  That's the Corbomite device, recently installed. <BR>
I expect it to become standard equipment on starships soon,<BR>
but you don't need to do anything with it, so just leave it<BR>
alone.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:43:39 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Military vs Civilian ships<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 12:21:46 -0700<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Exactly my thought, Glenn.  I like to think in terms of late 18th/early<BR>
19th<BR>
> century commercial vessels.  Guns were de rigueur.  The main difference<BR>
> between commercial ships were the crews (men of war has much larger,<BR>
better<BR>
> trained combat crews) and space given over to cargo.  The structural<BR>
> difference between cargo ships and smaller men of war were relatively<BR>
minor.<BR>
> Of course, given the crews and the absence of a need to create revenue,<BR>
> warships could have much more extensive and complicated sails as well, and<BR>
> better take advantage of the wind.<BR>
><BR>
> This view of vessels seems to perfectly map with Traveller.  Merchant<BR>
ships<BR>
> are armed, but don't have the reserves or the trained crew for a straight<BR>
> out battle.  Also, warships have the additional crew to make even ugly<BR>
> boarding actions possible.  Warships have heavier 'scantlings' (read<BR>
armor)<BR>
> and don't have to give space over to cargo.  Still, a merchant vessel<BR>
> captained by a retired naval officer and a decent crew (themselves<BR>
veterans,<BR>
> perhaps) will be no easy prey for pirates.  Intel for the pirates is going<BR>
> to have to be pretty good in order to make risks of piracy pay off.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I want to completely disagree.<BR>
<BR>
There are three big differences between military and civilian ships in<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
The first one is that military ships are laser-proof. Lasers have a maximum<BR>
damage per TL in FFS2, and if you are a real warship, you have thick enough<BR>
armour to shrug this off (or at least take only surface damage). Lasers are<BR>
auxilary weapons - real warships do damage to other real warships with PAWs<BR>
(and perhaps Meson Guns).<BR>
<BR>
The second one is maneuver drives. Civilian ships tend to be one or two<BR>
gees - anything more is unprofitable. Military ships tend to be four or more<BR>
gees in acceleration, because at the multi-light second ranges of military<BR>
combat, your ability to survive is defined by your acceleration.<BR>
<BR>
The third one is the sensor suite. Civilians go with cheap sensors, because<BR>
expensive sensors are, well, expensive (the difference between a Sens 13 and<BR>
a Sens 13.5 PEMS at TL12 is about the cost of a 200 dton jump-2 freighter).<BR>
<BR>
These combination of factors mean that civilian ships get seen first, get<BR>
hit first, and cannot hit back effectively. This includes<BR>
ethically-challenged civilians.<BR>
<BR>
<Good stuff snipped that I agree with><BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:48:27 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
> From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
> The only other use I can see for these bombs is on free traders<BR>
> owned by *truly* crazed captains.  In such a case, use a really<BR>
> large fusion bomb, and as a pirate ship closes in and the pirates<BR>
> get ready to board, the captain informs them about this bomb, and<BR>
> tells them that if they don't surrender *now* the bomb goes off and<BR>
> both ships are history.  Not a free trader that I'd want to be on, but<BR>
> it could happen.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, after the first stunt like that (if it worked) all sane<BR>
> members of the crew would likely leave at the next port (if not<BR>
> before).  At this point, the captain needs a new crew, and hires the<BR>
> PCs (without informing them of the little surprise the ship has in<BR>
> store for pirates)  :)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Actually, no. They'd inform the nearest Imperial Authority, and all members<BR>
of the crew that didnt dob the captain in would join the Captain on trial<BR>
for Imperial High Crimes (viz Possession and Use of Nuclear Weapons).<BR>
<BR>
I also think that the nuclear explosion would probably be (eventually)<BR>
noticed by PEMS in surrounding systems, leading to lots of paperwork for all<BR>
those Imperial Bureaucrats, and an eventual SWAT team sent after all ships<BR>
that may have been in that system at that time.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:56:22 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> >What always bothered me about fighting in the age of sail<BR>
> >was not so much the weapons of the day (which were pretty<BR>
> >destructive), but the fact that you were going to battle<BR>
> >in a floating tinder-box.  Tar, turpentine, aged wood.<BR>
> <BR>
> And don't forget the gunpowder surrounded by the tar,<BR>
> turpentine, and aged wood.<BR>
<BR>
Then there's that joyful realization that the land-based cannon that<BR>
have you ranged are firing heated shot....<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Coastal artillery in the Age of Sail was apparently much like<BR>
deep meson sites:  it was probably going to kill you (or, as at Fort<BR>
McHenry, make you give up) before you killed it.<BR>
<BR>
Which brings us around to the current "fixed fortification" thread....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:10:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And don't forget the gunpowder surrounded by the tar,<BR>
> turpentine, and aged wood.<BR>
><BR>
> I used to play a wargame, done by SPI I think, that<BR>
> simulated warfare in the age of sail.  Each ship covered<BR>
> two hexes.  It was a lot of fun.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
I'm betting it was "Wooden ships and iron men", the same game I mentioned<BR>
earlier. Chain shot, grappling, boarding.  What's not to love.  OK, where<BR>
are my starship grappling hooks.  Borders away!<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Gone all piratical like" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:17:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Military vs. Civilian ships<BR>
<BR>
> I want to completely disagree.<BR>
><BR>
> There are three big differences between military and civilian ships in<BR>
> Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
True, but we don't expect pirates to be running in military vessels. If<BR>
you're in a Free trader, and ordered by a DE to heave-to, better do it.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> These combination of factors mean that civilian ships get seen first, get<BR>
> hit first, and cannot hit back effectively. This includes<BR>
> ethically-challenged civilians.<BR>
><BR>
> <Good stuff snipped that I agree with><BR>
><BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ian, I really must look at T4/FFS2 in greater detail.  Now the question is,<BR>
do I stop working on my 6 websites (3 traveller) to do it?  Give up playing<BR>
CT every weekend.  Or just give up sleep?  Fortunately, I have all you kind<BR>
TMLers to put me straight when I post something off the mark.  As I<BR>
mentioned here before, I've learned more here on the TML about non-CT<BR>
variants of trav than I have in countless hours of reading the Darned books.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks all.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "who really thinks like a grunt anyway" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:21:17 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > And don't forget the gunpowder surrounded by the tar,<BR>
> > turpentine, and aged wood.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I used to play a wargame, done by SPI I think, that<BR>
> > simulated warfare in the age of sail.  Each ship covered<BR>
> > two hexes.  It was a lot of fun.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm betting it was "Wooden ships and iron men", the same game I mentioned<BR>
> earlier. Chain shot, grappling, boarding.  What's not to love.  OK, where<BR>
> are my starship grappling hooks.  Borders away!<BR>
> <BR>
Arrr, mateys!  If ye be wantin' _real_ piratical adventure, then _here_<BR>
be the port ye seek:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.io.com/~sj/PirateGame.html<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 18:23:25 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
> > Subject: RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
> > The only other use I can see for these bombs is on free traders<BR>
> > owned by *truly* crazed captains.  In such a case, use a really<BR>
> > large fusion bomb, and as a pirate ship closes in and the pirates<BR>
> > get ready to board, the captain informs them about this bomb, and<BR>
> > tells them that if they don't surrender *now* the bomb goes off and<BR>
> > both ships are history.  Not a free trader that I'd want to be on, but<BR>
> > it could happen.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course, after the first stunt like that (if it worked) all sane<BR>
> > members of the crew would likely leave at the next port (if not<BR>
> > before).  At this point, the captain needs a new crew, and hires the<BR>
> > PCs (without informing them of the little surprise the ship has in<BR>
> > store for pirates)  :)<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, no. They'd inform the nearest Imperial Authority, and all members<BR>
> of the crew that didnt dob the captain in would join the Captain on trial<BR>
> for Imperial High Crimes (viz Possession and Use of Nuclear Weapons).<BR>
<BR>
This assumes three things:<BR>
<BR>
1.  That the bomb in question actually exists.<BR>
<BR>
2.  That the ECMs believed the claim.  If the ECMs did not believe it,<BR>
then, given condition #1 above:<BR>
<BR>
  a. either the captain was unwilling/unable to set it off, in which<BR>
case the ECMs soon have a nice prize; or<BR>
<BR>
  b. the captain _did_ set it off, in which case neither the free trader<BR>
captain nor the ECMs will be able to inform Imperial officials of<BR>
anything...ever again.<BR>
<BR>
3.  That, if the free trader survived condition #2 above, the bomb (or<BR>
unmistakable traces of it) would still be on board when the Imperial<BR>
inspectors boarded.<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:29:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
> This assumes three things:<BR>
><BR>
> 1.  That the bomb in question actually exists.<BR>
><BR>
> 2.  That the ECMs believed the claim.  If the ECMs did not believe it,<BR>
> then, given condition #1 above:<BR>
><BR>
>   a. either the captain was unwilling/unable to set it off, in which<BR>
> case the ECMs soon have a nice prize; or<BR>
><BR>
>   b. the captain _did_ set it off, in which case neither the free trader<BR>
> captain nor the ECMs will be able to inform Imperial officials of<BR>
> anything...ever again.<BR>
><BR>
> 3.  That, if the free trader survived condition #2 above, the bomb (or<BR>
> unmistakable traces of it) would still be on board when the Imperial<BR>
> inspectors boarded.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate if<BR>
it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?  IMTU, I allow<BR>
someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive (disable safety<BR>
systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the need of any additional<BR>
self-destruct device.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:29:55 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 11:02 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> <<snips description of Stygian Bliss poisoning>><BR>
><BR>
> > > Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable<BR>
> > > of treating<BR>
> > > Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away...."<BR>
> ><BR>
> > "Hmmm... I'd better call for a MedEvac and then take the dose of Fast<BR>
> > Drug I keep for such emergencies."<BR>
> ><BR>
> > IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, so one subjective<BR>
> > minute is 1 hour of real time...<BR>
><BR>
> This solution does, of course, lend itself to the all-crucial,<BR>
> all-dreaded Drug Interaction, should the referee require such as a plot<BR>
> device (for instance, to turn the PC from a latent to an active psi<BR>
> talent).  Unless, of course, the PCs who planned to indulge successfully<BR>
> researched the pharmocology of Stygian Bliss beforehand (say, a<BR>
> Formidable Research roll [Difficult if the PC first makes an Average<BR>
> Medical or Difficult Steward roll]).<BR>
<BR>
Hey, if I'm dead anyway I may as well take my chances with the potion<BR>
miscibility^H^H^H Drug Interaction roll... (sorry, slipped into the wrong<BR>
game there for a mo' <g>)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:29:41 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler writes:<BR>
>On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must be<BR>
>ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close proximity?<BR>
>How about drilling a few holes in the hull and letting the air out?  How<BR>
>about launching a dozen or so simultaneous attacks at multiple points to<BR>
>spread out the defenders?<BR>
<BR>
	The neutron bomb would have to be powerful enough to affect crew<BR>
	inside the hull (which is presumably designed to resist such<BR>
	effects).  This would likely trash computers and ship's systems<BR>
	that you may be interested in, even if the use of nuclear weapons<BR>
	is not a problem.<BR>
<BR>
	Drilling a few holes would probably be redundant, as the disabled<BR>
	hulk probably has a few to start with.  I presume that the<BR>
	defending crew will be cowering in the well-protected innards,<BR>
	perhaps with patch kits and vacc-tents.<BR>
<BR>
	Launching multiple attacks is exactly the sort of thing that I<BR>
	was thinking of.  A carefully planned boarding action, perhaps<BR>
	following a few careful scouting missions.  Keep in mind that it<BR>
	may be hard to tell if anyone is still alive in there, let alone<BR>
	how many, whether they are marines, where they are, how they are<BR>
	organized, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2731<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 6 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2732<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Floating Tinderboxes<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: D20<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: D20<BR>
Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
Drugs for muscle paralysis (was side effects of potables)<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: D20<BR>
RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Roc: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:36:56 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
>As an attacker looking to capture a disabled ship, I would turn down the<BR>
>power on my meson guns, just enough so that the meson beams produce a lethal<BR>
>dose of radiation (recall that meson weapons produce gamma radiation from<BR>
>the meson decay), and take out any resisting crew.<BR>
>I doubt that resistance would be seen in ther face of this tactic.<BR>
<BR>
	If this option is available to attackers, I would expect meson guns to<BR>
	be employed this way a lot.  On the battlefield, from ortillery, even<BR>
	in starship combat.  Presumably, it would be easier to use in a non-<BR>
	combat situation (such as on a disabled ship), but I would rather do<BR>
	without such a "death ray."  That's not a criticism, just my vision<BR>
	for MTU.  Of course, if you want prisoners it might be tricky to<BR>
	avoid killing the officers with the irradiation option.  :)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:06:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Floating Tinderboxes<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
><BR>
>>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>>What always bothered me about fighting in the age of sail<BR>
>>was not so much the weapons of the day (which were pretty<BR>
>>destructive), but the fact that you were going to battle<BR>
>>in a floating tinder-box.  Tar, turpentine, aged wood.<BR>
><BR>
>And don't forget the gunpowder surrounded by the tar,<BR>
>turpentine, and aged wood.<BR>
><BR>
>I used to play a wargame, done by SPI I think, that<BR>
>simulated warfare in the age of sail.  Each ship covered<BR>
>two hexes.  It was a lot of fun.<BR>
<BR>
	Avalon Hill - Wooden Ships and Iron Men.  AH's "Official Game of the<BR>
Bicentennial".  Yes, cool game; bought mine in 1976 and still have it.  Even<BR>
played it once within the last 5 years.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)(Chainshot Rules!)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions. OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:07:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
Yup - stuck in Evil Spokalu right now.. but the wife wants to move to<BR>
Portland one of these days.<BR>
<BR>
When I travel thru on my way to Tillimook to visit granny, I will let y'all<BR>
know sos that we can meet and greet each other...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 12:32 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Doug,<BR>
><BR>
> *Oregon* experiences that. But it rarely happens in the Willamette<BR>
> Valley. One of the things I miss after growing up in Spokane, where we<BR>
> actually got *real* snow.<BR>
><BR>
> In Portland, I can recall some "real snow". About 3-4 times in the last<BR>
> 25 years. Hell, the city shuts down when the snowfall isn't bad enough<BR>
> to require *boots*.<BR>
><BR>
> If I can walk around in ordinary shoes and not get them filled with<BR>
> snow, that's not a "snowstorm", that's "light flurries". Maybe.<BR>
><BR>
> What we've gotten rather more often (but still infrequenctly) are ice<BR>
> storms. Now *those* can be a pain. Rain that freezes on impact gives<BR>
> everything a coating of ice, and makes for problems.<BR>
><BR>
> And in any case, remember that the climate is getting warmer. Back in<BR>
> the 1920s, the Willamette froze thick enough to drive cars on. It's<BR>
> unlikelly to do so in the foreseeable future. :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Leonard,<BR>
Having lived in Spokane (just like me--scary! Tsyduck(sp?) your day is<BR>
coming), you will appreciate this.  Portland does not have snow.  Snow is<BR>
when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front of you<BR>
house, trying to decide which one is your car.  Having said that, I know we<BR>
have some Finn Landers and Alaskans on this list.  I expect to hear 'Naw,<BR>
that's not snow, now here in [insert place] we have REAL snow.<BR>
<BR>
We have the same thing in our trav games.  Some characters are mighty proud<BR>
of their home worlds, and have to share with everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
"Tough Town?!  maybe to you.  I come from Regina Station, where the weak are<BR>
killed and eaten.  Heck, the grade-schoolers all carry knives, 'cause guns<BR>
aren't as much fun.  We gargle with nuclear waste, and a rape and a mugging<BR>
is just our way of saying cheerio".  Hey, just like New Yorkers.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:11:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
><BR>
><snip><BR>
>Captain:  Don't go into that compartment.<BR>
>PC #1:  Why not? what's in there?<BR>
>Captain:  That's the Corbomite device, recently installed.<BR>
>I expect it to become standard equipment on starships soon,<BR>
>but you don't need to do anything with it, so just leave it<BR>
>alone.<BR>
<BR>
	Is it just my imagination, or an indication of the average age of the<BR>
people on this list that most of the Star Trek references are from the<BR>
original series?  :)<BR>
	(Classic Trekker and proud of it - Reruns?  Hell, I have memories of the<BR>
original broadcasts)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
	Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:13:19 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: D20<BR>
<BR>
> But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was <BR>
>  introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:27:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 5:07 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Yup - stuck in Evil Spokalu right now.. but the wife wants to move to<BR>
> Portland one of these days.<BR>
> <BR>
> When I travel thru on my way to Tillimook to visit granny, I will let y'all<BR>
> know sos that we can meet and greet each other...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
Mmmmm. Tillimook cheese factory.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:30:54 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: D20<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 5:13 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was<BR>
>> introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
Well, it's probably Traveller heresey, but I like D20, and use them for<BR>
certain things (like hit location).  Nice flat percentile roll (5%<BR>
increments).<BR>
<BR>
JMHO<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:41:09 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> > I'm becoming less fond of Stygian Bliss as an intoxicant.<BR>
> > Maybe it has a wide margin of safety, and the effects aren't quite so<BR>
> > pronounced at the usual doses...<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
As described it sounds quite toxic. So's alcohol, and nicotine in the<BR>
conventional delivery devices.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't commenting specifically on the 'validity', biochemically or<BR>
otherwise, of its effects.<BR>
<BR>
Tod, some comments :-<BR>
> I wanted Stygian Bliss to<BR>
> be something akin to Fugu (sp?), i.e. a euphoric that is potentially deadly.<BR>
Any euphoria due to fugu is purely due to a gourmand's appetite being<BR>
sated, not the fugu's active ingredient!<BR>
<BR>
Said compound is tetrodotoxin (TTX). This is one of the most potent<BR>
sodium channel blockers known. Fortunately it binds more readily to the<BR>
sodium channels in nerves than in the heart, leading to the altered<BR>
sensation (pins and needles in the lips and peripheries) seen with<BR>
culinary doses of the fish.<BR>
<BR>
The effect is indistinguishable from intravenous boluses of local<BR>
anaesthetics (except that you're more likely to have some odd heart<BR>
rhythm for a few seconds, if you're not unlucky enough to fit and stop<BR>
breathing first with the local).<BR>
<BR>
(Death from TTX is usually from muscle paralysis, thence respiratory<BR>
failure. Refractory cessation of cardiac activity from the TTX alone is<BR>
not possible, unless a big intravenous dose was given - you just can't<BR>
eat enough before your limbs give out...)<BR>
<BR>
> So, for game purposes, one could temporarily enhance<BR>
> their intelligence.  Just the thing to liven up conversation at a dull<BR>
> party.  Taken in the normal doses (a nice, refreshing, espresso-sized cup)<BR>
> it is relatively safe.  Too, much though, and bad juju.<BR>
<BR>
Four options :-<BR>
i. It's a mild to moderate central nervous stimulant, like caffeine,<BR>
ephedrine (the active ingredient of guarana, BTW), or low dose<BR>
amphetamines or cocaine. The spillover effects are due to catecholamine<BR>
excess (hypertension, tachycardia, etc).<BR>
ii. It's a CNS depressant like alcohol, which causes disinhibition at<BR>
low doses, coma at high ones.<BR>
iii. It's a psychotropic like LSD, ergot or psilocybin. Any subjective<BR>
improvements in intelligence are just that. To an objective observer,<BR>
the user is charmingly manic at best, dangerously psychotic at worst.<BR>
iv. It's a genuine nootropic, unlike vasopressin (remember all that<BR>
'smart drug' crap a few years back?). <BR>
<BR>
It looks like the ability to lay down short term memories is entirely<BR>
based in the hippocampi. Perhaps some of the neurotransmitter soup is a<BR>
bit richer in certain compounds there. Stygian Bliss flogs the neurones<BR>
that make and respond to this stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Sensory data that wouldn't ordinarily reach the level of awareness does<BR>
so and gets remembered vividly.<BR>
<BR>
So you remember and perceive more (how many people remember or are aware<BR>
of the exact orientation of their joints from moment to moment? Joint<BR>
position? Pressure on various areas of their skin? Sensation at a point<BR>
2cm below the left scapula in the posterior reflection of the<BR>
mid-clavicular line three days ago after dinner? Etc.).<BR>
<BR>
When the drug ceases its action, the hippocampi need a little bit of<BR>
time to recover. Some people just get a little forgetful, others wake up<BR>
with strange tattoos, or strangers...<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Toxicity could be divided into those due to acute and chronic exposures.<BR>
Acute :- <BR>
* Fitting (probably temporal lobe seizures due to spread of electrical<BR>
activity out of the hippocampi) - might be hard to differentiate from<BR>
blackouts due to the aftereffects of the drug (for the user), except for<BR>
the timing. Especially likely with overdose.<BR>
* Synaesthesia - scrambling of sensory modalities ; hot becomes cold ;<BR>
pressure becomes colour and light...<BR>
* Peripheral effects - cardiac, gut (most of the neurotransmitter soup<BR>
compounds are produced by the very large number of neurones in the gut)<BR>
are the most likely organs to muck up. Season according to taste.<BR>
<BR>
Chronic :-<BR>
* Photographic memory :-<BR>
Not a useful type ; I'm thinking of Borge's character Funes who<BR>
remembered every waking moment in such detail that he regarded a given<BR>
person as a different entity every few minutes as their mood, the<BR>
lighting on their face, etc. changed.<BR>
* Korsakov's syndrome :-<BR>
As seen in some alcoholics. The mamillary bodies in the hippocampi are<BR>
destroyed completely. They cannot form short-term memories, and<BR>
subsequently have attention spans of a few minutes at most. Filling in<BR>
the gaps with nonsense ('I fought and died in six world wars') is a<BR>
common conversational gambit.<BR>
* Cardiac disease - cardiomyopathy, aberrant rhythms (oops... sudden<BR>
death).<BR>
* Gut disease - secretory diarrhoea, absolute constipation from 'burnt<BR>
out bowel' (toxic megacolon is scary, especially when it bursts...)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the logorrhoea, everyone.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
'Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, and don't skimp on the<BR>
oxygen.'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:41:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Drugs for muscle paralysis (was side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> Meant to ask our resident phiz.  Curare analogs use succinyl choline, is<BR>
> that correct?  I can't remember anymore.<BR>
<BR>
"Phiz" = physician? Unlikely to be a physiotherapist...<BR>
<BR>
Drugs used in anaesthetic practice for muscle paralysis include :-<BR>
i. local anaesthetics delivered into the subarachnoid space ('spinals')<BR>
- - stop nerve transmission.<BR>
ii. Curare derivatives - non-depolarising or competitive neuromuscular<BR>
blockers - stop impulse propagation at the motor end plate.<BR>
Example modern compounds : atracurium, vecuronium, rocuronium,<BR>
pancuronium.<BR>
I haven't seen curare being used except in dusty little hospitals by<BR>
elderly anaesthetists (practice style, not necessarily vintage). It's a<BR>
pretty dirty drug.<BR>
iii. Depolarising drugs - mimic acetylcholine at the motor end plate,<BR>
but bind longer, leading to fasiculations (muscle twitching), then<BR>
paralysis - succinyl dicholine, or 'suxamethonium' is the<BR>
only example. <BR>
Quick on, quick off - in fact the fastest onset of any of<BR>
these agents ('intubatable in 60 seconds'). Potentially deadly due to<BR>
release of potassium from muscle and damaged tissue if present (burns,<BR>
multitrauma victims). <BR>
<BR>
The Mossad and other spook agencies like this one as it often compels <BR>
speech.<BR>
<BR>
Blast from the past :-<BR>
Ganglion blockers - block the autonomic ganglia just off the spinal<BR>
cord. Nasty effects on blood pressure and heart function, not to mention<BR>
urinary retention and extreme mouth dryness. Stop the voluntary muscles<BR>
from working, though. Examples : hexa- and decamethonium.<BR>
<BR>
> Like ortho-ethyl-s2-di-isopropyl-amino-ethyl-methyl-phosphono-flouridate?<BR>
Official names in organic chemistry are like this, cos carbon is such an<BR>
amazing element. Thankfully they only appear as required. <BR>
<BR>
Let's stick to 'VX', thanks, it saves bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the condensed coredump.<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:52:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 10:13 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
> > >If my home is attacked, of course I'll fight to defend it.  You don't<BR>
need<BR>
> > >to force me.  But of course we don't have those kinds of wars these<BR>
days,<BR>
> > >and I'm not signing up unless we do.  In the wars where there was a<BR>
genuine<BR>
> > >threat, people signed up in droves.  Did we really need to conscript<BR>
them?<BR>
> > >This is a serious question.  I am curious what the benefit of<BR>
conscription<BR>
> > >is when there is a real cause to fight for.<BR>
><BR>
> > Yes.  Despite the films of lines outside the recruiting offices, they<BR>
did<BR>
> > need to draft men in huge numbers.  You see, everybody was trying to<BR>
enlist<BR>
> > in the Navy, and avoid going to war with a rifle in their hands.<BR>
><BR>
> Then to get more people to enlist in the Army their rate of<BR>
> pay and/or conditions of employment should have been raised. [1]<BR>
> If the quantity of Army people supplied by the labor market<BR>
> did not meet the quantity demanded than the labor market was<BR>
> not at equilibrium.<BR>
><BR>
> [1] Or navy pay and/or conditions of employment lowered.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, don't have seperate recruiting for each service. You apply to<BR>
join the 'military', and are then sent on a 'pre'-basic training course of a<BR>
week or so. You are evaluated for which service you are best suited and then<BR>
passed on to the appropriate service basic training depending on your<BR>
aptitude and the military's need at the time.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, you need to draft as the government has a better understanding<BR>
of its forthcoming military needs than the public. You can't go from a<BR>
peacetime TO&E to a wartime one overnight. You need to be training up<BR>
soldiers months before a crisis reaches the point where the public decides<BR>
that 'something needs to be done, and I'm the one to do it'. Yes volunteers<BR>
are nice, but they may be to late, especially now warfare has become that<BR>
much more technological and specialised.<BR>
<BR>
Airmen, Tankers, Gunners, Sailors all need more training than handing them a<BR>
gun and a uniform and spending a couple of weeks square-bashing before being<BR>
pointed in the direction of the Enemy and let loose. You have to begin<BR>
training sufficient forces to meet your needs for the first few months of a<BR>
major war, to cover the time it will take to train those that will not<BR>
otherwise get involved until the outbreak of hostilities.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:00:16 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snips discussion of low-power meson guns as "death rays">> <BR>
<BR>
>         Of course, if you want prisoners it might be tricky to<BR>
>         avoid killing the officers with the irradiation option.  :)<BR>
<BR>
<minor rant><BR>
<BR>
As opposed to killing the lowlife enlisted scum who know nothing anyway?<BR>
<BR>
One of my pet peeves has always been the assumption, both among<BR>
civilians in general and in RPG settings in particular, that only<BR>
officers have knowledge worth knowing.  (For example, according to<BR>
Twilight: 2000 [2d edition], as an interrogation NCO, I can't exist.  At<BR>
least, I can not be generated using the rules for character<BR>
generation.)  I suspect that this tendency is rooted in the predilection<BR>
of civilians to automatically equate themselves with officers,<BR>
regardless of their own social status (Heinlein mentions this in _Job: A<BR>
Comedy of Justice_, and my observations over 16 years of service have<BR>
not yet contradicted his point).<BR>
<BR>
Admittedly, I may be biased by serving in an army that gives enlisted<BR>
personnel responsibilities that other forces may reserve to officers.  I<BR>
still recall how surprised the Israeli officers with whom I dealt as an<BR>
Arabic interpreter with the MFO were to learn that I had no desire to<BR>
seek a commission.<BR>
<BR>
As an interrogator, I would dearly love to get my hands on the enlisted<BR>
personnel (including petty officers/NCOs) who actually operate the<BR>
equipment on a warship or other combat system.  After all, they probably<BR>
know _far_ more about their specialty than the generalist officers who<BR>
supervise them.<BR>
<BR>
Besides, who actually types up, encrypts, sends out, receives, decrypts,<BR>
and distributes operations orders, intelligence estimates, and other<BR>
vital documents of intelligence interest?  The enlisted personnel, of<BR>
course.  The officers have other responsibilies.<BR>
<BR>
</minor rant><BR>
<BR>
(BTW, I didn't take your post personally, Ian [and I did see your<BR>
"smiley face]; I merely needed to vent on this topic.)<BR>
<BR>
//signature//<BR>
<BR>
JOHN E. GROTH<BR>
SFC, LAARNG<BR>
Platoon Sergeant<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:01:09 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: D20<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> on 7/6/00 5:13 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was<BR>
> >> introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
> ><BR>
> > LKW<BR>
> ><BR>
> Well, it's probably Traveller heresey, but I like D20, and use them for<BR>
> certain things (like hit location).  Nice flat percentile roll (5%<BR>
> increments).<BR>
<BR>
As I see it, if [place your favorite divine being(s) here] had meant to<BR>
limit us to cubes, He/She/It/They would not have created four other<BR>
perfect polyhedra.<BR>
<BR>
I _prefer_ cubic dice.  They are both intuitive and readily available. <BR>
This should not prevent me from using other polyhedral dice as the<BR>
situation dictates (e.g., I shouldn't feel forced to roll 1D6, rerolling<BR>
results of 5 or 6, if I need to choose one of four options.  That's a<BR>
proper function of D4s.)<BR>
<BR>
Call me a heretic if you will, "yet it still moves." ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:31:05 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
At 7:39 AM -0700 7/6/00, Thing wrote:<BR>
>On Thursday, July 06, 2000 6:04 AM<BR>
>Paul Kunnap said,<BR>
><BR>
>>  I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in<BR>
>>  Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that<BR>
>>  the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence<BR>
><BR>
>I've wondered about this.  I've heard talk about scuttling charges and such<BR>
>do deny the enemy anything useful in the event a vessel needs to be<BR>
>abandoned, and I seem to recall a reference in M0 to ships having a protocol<BR>
>for erasing maps/navigation/etc information in case of hostile alien<BR>
>encounter.<BR>
><BR>
>I just have a problem with the idea of placing explosives around/within all<BR>
>of your vital systems.  It seems that if these where in place it would make<BR>
>the ships vastly more likely to suffer catastrophic damage during combat.<BR>
<BR>
Just look at Star Trek, every version.  In combat, the bridge stations<BR>
were prone to exploding, often injuring or killing crew.  I can only assume<BR>
that they placed explosives in the controls to deny the ship from boarders.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:42:23 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
At 4:29 PM -0700 7/6/00, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate if<BR>
>it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?  IMTU, I allow<BR>
>someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive (disable safety<BR>
>systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the need of any additional<BR>
>self-destruct device.<BR>
<BR>
A fusion power plant would be very difficult to turn into a bomb.<BR>
Only a pulsed fusion plant would even be able to be turned into a<BR>
bomb and then it probably wouldn't be very powerful.<BR>
<BR>
Maneuver and Jump drives are magic tech, so it's totally up to the GM...<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure about actual rules...<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:09:00 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Voir Dire (jury selection)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for taking this further for me.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >Can you please clear something up for me...?  Are you saying that you<BR>
attend<BR>
> >empanelling once, and if not selected, you are dismissed for the next few<BR>
> >years?  Here, if you are not selected, you are called back until your<BR>
term<BR>
> >is finished - for as many trials as they need your panel for over that<BR>
> >period.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes.  Not too many years ago, there was a bit of reform around<BR>
> here, reducing the excuses and automatic excusals (cops, lawyers,<BR>
> and doctors, for instance, are no longer exempt from service). We<BR>
> also went from a separate jury roll to the courts using the<BR>
> voter, DMV, and Public Assistance rolls, to reduce the number of<BR>
> eligibles missed.  The draw is still random, but one of the<BR>
> automatic excusals (as opposed to delay) is now "I served at this<BR>
> level within the last x years".  This is to prevent the burden<BR>
> from falling on the same people too often; prior to these<BR>
> reforms, my mother was called every year like clockwork - and,<BR>
> after the third time, protested every year like clockwork, and<BR>
> got excused roughly two-thirds of the time.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Funny how nations work differently, probably a population thing(?), but<BR>
possibly not!?  In Oz, we had the same reform, only reversed in a sense...<BR>
that is, they expanded the list of excusals, with age (60+... I'm not sure)<BR>
allowing you to request excusal, being on a previous jury at any time,<BR>
certain illness that simply cause disruption (ie: Diabetics cab have a,<BR>
shall we say, a "bladder problem" where they may have to relieve themselves<BR>
every hour or so... or even less!  This could be a distinct disruption to<BR>
the proceedings), etc.<BR>
<BR>
I have to say, so far, this has been an interesting thread, I never imagined<BR>
the differences between US systems alone!  I liked the German one too, and<BR>
had wondered about such images in various German movies with such court<BR>
scenes in them... "What the hell is going on there... Why did... Grrrr, I<BR>
don't understand why they did that to him... mumble, mumble..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:29:34 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate if<BR>
> it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?  IMTU, I allow<BR>
> someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive (disable safety<BR>
> systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the need of any additional<BR>
> self-destruct device.<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind that, if fusion drives could _possibly_ be rigged to blow<BR>
up as a fusion bomb, then fusion-powered starships would be _very_ rare<BR>
in civilian hands.  For instance, consider just how powerful a fusion<BR>
blast that consumed _10 tons_ of hydrogen (Jump-1 for a 100 dton ship)<BR>
would be, at, say, 0.1% mass/energy conversion efficiency.  That would<BR>
work out to 10 kg of mass _fully converted_ to energy in one brilliant<BR>
instant.  IIRC, modern nukes convert far less mass to energy.  Now<BR>
consider that Jump-1 for a free trader uses _twice_ as much fuel, and<BR>
that far traders carry fuel for _Jump-2_ (40 tons of fuel).<BR>
<BR>
What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
section.  Since civilian fusion-powered starships _are_ relatively<BR>
common, we must assume that fusion plants can't be rigged to go BOOM. <BR>
Maybe _bang_ (destroying the plant, and damaging the rest of<BR>
engineering), but not BOOM.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:45:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Matt Bond wrote :-<BR>
> (of dying from a dose of Stygian Bliss) :-<BR>
>> IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, <BR>
>> so one subjective minute is 1 hour of real time...<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah. Fast drug is a bit of a nuisance as described, given the<BR>
> problems with hypothermia (cool to ambient temp within 4-6 hours, at<BR>
> most, and then die from cardiac standstill), coma (half cerebral<BR>
> metabolic rate=coma with EEG, quarter=flatline EEG), and infection<BR>
> (presumably your commensal bacteria don't get a dose when you take it).<BR>
<BR>
Well, the temperature part is easily handled. Since it's main use is to<BR>
make long trips seem short, you just raise room temp. At a guess, to<BR>
95+ F (35+ C). <BR>
<BR>
Even then a major problem is going to be muscle fatigue. Just consider<BR>
the strain of standing, or of holding an object in your hand.<BR>
<BR>
I'll leave the EEG/bacterial problems to you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:52:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
come by. <BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
*that* take. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2732<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, July 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2733<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale <BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Re : EMP weapons article<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Neutron weapons (was RE: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Fast Drug (was Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug))<BR>
Re: Auth Thaum<BR>
RE: D20<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:56:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thursday, July 06, 2000 6:04 AM<BR>
> Paul Kunnap said,<BR>
><BR>
>> I'd expect boarding actions quite common after naval battles in<BR>
>> Traveller. Crippled (no power or at least no maneuver drives) ships that<BR>
>> the enemy leaves behind is a good source of intelligence<BR>
><BR>
> I've wondered about this.  I've heard talk about scuttling charges and such<BR>
> do deny the enemy anything useful in the event a vessel needs to be<BR>
> abandoned, and I seem to recall a reference in M0 to ships having a protocol<BR>
> for erasing maps/navigation/etc information in case of hostile alien<BR>
> encounter.<BR>
><BR>
> I just have a problem with the idea of placing explosives around/within all<BR>
> of your vital systems.  It seems that if these where in place it would make<BR>
> the ships vastly more likely to suffer catastrophic damage during combat.<BR>
<BR>
I'm told that the military handles this by having critical chips rigged<BR>
with a thermite charge that's set off by the destruct switch. It'll do<BR>
well with HDs too.<BR>
<BR>
You can also rig a *small* explosive charge in either case. A shaped<BR>
charge, or better yet, set of them set up to *implode* the chip or HD<BR>
is even better.<BR>
<BR>
So all you might see is a bright light from the ventilation slots of<BR>
the gizmo, or a loud *bang* accompanied by a spurt of dust.<BR>
<BR>
> And with regards to navigational data and maps there is that nice juicy<BR>
> black box on all civilian ships that records all of this wonderful data and<BR>
> is designed to resist erasing and accidental destruction.  It would seem<BR>
> that an ideal way to gather intelligence would be to attack merchant ships<BR>
> and pull the black boxes.  Once you crack the encryption you would have<BR>
> recent navigational data for all the areas visited by the ship and a good<BR>
> amount of sensor data on any worlds/ports the ship had visited.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, nav data is pretty hard to keep secret unless you prevent<BR>
*all* civilian traffic in the system. Think of it like most countries<BR>
these days. You can *buy* USGS or Ordinance Survey maps that are *more*<BR>
than adequate, and get them out of the country easily.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:07:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>Either way, it could be embarassing to sink into the ground and then <BR>
>>discover that the "suction" between the hull and the ground is strong <BR>
>>than the lift force you can generate... <BR>
><BR>
> Shouldn't be a problem to just include a "seal breaker" - some air<BR>
> pressure tubing, wouldn't need much, that pumps air out the bottom<BR>
> of the grav vehicle.  A little bit of pressure eqalization is all<BR>
> you should need to pop free.  <BR>
<BR>
That's going to need some *high pressure* air. Otherwise the ground<BR>
will get pushed into the tubing instead of air coming out of it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:10:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If a 500,000 dton ship is disabled and left vulnerable to<BR>
>> boarding, the enemy could profit materially and informationally<BR>
>> by getting it intact.  If this keeps them from nuking it<BR>
>> outright, I could imaging protracted deck-by-deck fighting.<BR>
>> If the defenders could hold out for a couple of weeks,<BR>
>> friendly naval forces might return.  Life support systems would<BR>
>> be crucial.  Thoughts?<BR>
><BR>
> As an attacker looking to capture a disabled ship, I would turn down the<BR>
> power on my meson guns, just enough so that the meson beams produce a lethal<BR>
> dose of radiation (recall that meson weapons produce gamma radiation from<BR>
> the meson decay), and take out any resisting crew.<BR>
<BR>
Any level of gamma radiation that is quickly fatal to humans will fry<BR>
semiconductors, and likely won't be very good for optical computers<BR>
*especially* for storage media.<BR>
<BR>
As I've said before, just turn a some defocused lasers on the ship.<BR>
Heat the whole thing to above 100 C. At that temp, they can't keep<BR>
their suits cool for any length of time (even with active<BR>
refrigeration, you need a heat *sink* of some sort). <BR>
<BR>
Given a choice between surrender and *literally* boiling in their own<BR>
"juices" most will surrender. The ones that won't will die. Very<BR>
unpleasantly. But those temps won't affect most storage media or<BR>
electronics. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:11:31 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale <BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale <BR>
...<BR>
>They are not to scale. The (100 ton) Scouts are about two thirds<BR>
>of the volume of the (800 ton) Mercenary Cruiser AKA Happy<BR>
<BR>
  They are not to scale. However, the Scouts I've got aren't even <BR>
close to one-third the size of the Type C.<BR>
<BR>
>fun ball. The (400 ton) Survey Ship is larger than the Happy fun<BR>
<BR>
  Pretty much :(<BR>
<BR>
>ball. The various boats seem to be to about the same scale as each<BR>
>other but this scale does not match the scale of the ships.<BR>
<BR>
  Yep :(<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:34:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
On Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:56 PM<BR>
Leonard Erickson said,<BR>
<BR>
Re: Scuttling Charges<BR>
<BR>
> I'm told that the military handles this by having critical chips rigged<BR>
> with a thermite charge that's set off by the destruct switch. It'll do<BR>
> well with HDs too.<BR>
><BR>
> You can also rig a *small* explosive charge in either case. A shaped<BR>
> charge, or better yet, set of them set up to *implode* the chip or HD<BR>
> is even better.<BR>
<BR>
I just don't like the idea of destruct charges wired into the system.  I<BR>
keep envisioning power surges or bad programs setting them off.<BR>
<BR>
I can just see a small power surge as the ship mis-jumps blowing the main<BR>
navigation console.<BR>
<BR>
*Lurch*<BR>
We're screwed.<BR>
*Bang!*<BR>
We're really screwed!<BR>
<BR>
> Actually, nav data is pretty hard to keep secret unless you prevent<BR>
> *all* civilian traffic in the system. Think of it like most countries<BR>
> these days. You can *buy* USGS or Ordinance Survey maps that are *more*<BR>
> than adequate, and get them out of the country easily.<BR>
<BR>
Any data civilians have access to, or can observe is pretty hard to keep<BR>
secret.  Luckily most people are very unobservant..  Then again there is a<BR>
lot of data a civilian can pick up that they might not be aware is supposed<BR>
to be classified.  Back when I lived in Yakima I used to hear of things all<BR>
the time to only find our several months later that they where supposed to<BR>
be secrets.  Of course when you have a good size base with an NSA post in an<BR>
area with little or no recreation besides gaming, shooting, and drinking<BR>
it's not surprising.<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:16:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must be<BR>
>> ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close proximity?<BR>
><BR>
> I don't think that enhanced radiation weapons ("neutron bombs") will work in<BR>
> space. Today's ER weapons change the normally-occurring isotopes of a few<BR>
> light metals which occur in soil into isotopes with short half-lives using<BR>
> the weapon's neutron radiation. I don't think enough suitable isotopes would<BR>
> exist in ship armor to use this effect in ship combat.<BR>
<BR>
They kill by *direct* radiation. If they created large amounts of<BR>
radio-isotopes they'd defeat the purpose, which is to kill personnel<BR>
with *minimal* contamination of the area of effect.<BR>
<BR>
A neutron flux that won't create much in the way of radio-isotopes<BR>
*will* kill people quite easily.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:22:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not sure how important the ship's life support systems<BR>
> are.  How long can one live in vaccsuits, combat armor, and<BR>
> battle dress?  A few weeks does not seem impossible to me<BR>
> from a physical perspective, although psychologically it<BR>
> seems to me that training in extended wear of body armor<BR>
> would be crucial.  <BR>
><BR>
> How much air and water are integral to vaccsuits, etc.? <BR>
> What are the sources of resupply aboard ship?<BR>
<BR>
There's a *far* more critical factor limiting how long you can stay in<BR>
a vaccsuit. One that has yet to be solved. Waste disposal. <BR>
<BR>
Urine is *easy* to deal with for men. For women, it requires a<BR>
catheter, which is both unpleasant and prone to cause infections. <BR>
<BR>
Feces are the big problem. The current "solution" is disposable<BR>
diapers. Yes, the disposable diasper is actually a spin-off of the<BR>
space program!<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, this is *not* practical for more than a few hours. No way is<BR>
it doable for days. <BR>
<BR>
Short of nanotech, or surgical modification, I don't really see a<BR>
solution. <BR>
<BR>
Food is also a problem. Both because it's hard to get it into a sealed<BR>
suit, but also because it'll contribute to the fecal problem...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:31:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Travellers Bar Guide (was:Oregon)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>> <<snips description of Stygian Bliss poisoning>><BR>
>><BR>
>>>> Sadly, the nearest medical facility capable<BR>
>>>> of treating<BR>
>>>> Stygian Bliss poisoning is forty-two minutes away...."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> "Hmmm... I'd better call for a MedEvac and then take the dose of Fast<BR>
>>> Drug I keep for such emergencies."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> IIRC Fast drug slows the subjects metabolism 60 fold, so one subjective<BR>
>>> minute is 1 hour of real time...<BR>
>><BR>
>> This solution does, of course, lend itself to the all-crucial,<BR>
>> all-dreaded Drug Interaction, should the referee require such as a plot<BR>
>> device (for instance, to turn the PC from a latent to an active psi<BR>
>> talent).  Unless, of course, the PCs who planned to indulge successfully<BR>
>> researched the pharmocology of Stygian Bliss beforehand (say, a<BR>
>> Formidable Research roll [Difficult if the PC first makes an Average<BR>
>> Medical or Difficult Steward roll]).<BR>
><BR>
> Hey, if I'm dead anyway I may as well take my chances with the potion<BR>
> miscibility^H^H^H Drug Interaction roll... (sorry, slipped into the wrong<BR>
> game there for a mo' <g>)<BR>
<BR>
I recall a player accidentally discovering alkahest (the universal<BR>
solvent) that way. It dissolved its way out of him (very messy and ate<BR>
a good chunk of the stone floor of the passage. When asked why it<BR>
didn't eat its way to the corre of the planet, the DM replied "Just<BR>
because it'll dissolve *anything* doesn't mean there's no limit to *how<BR>
much* it'll dissolve."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:40:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Having lived in Spokane (just like me--scary! Tsyduck(sp?) your day is<BR>
> coming), you will appreciate this.  Portland does not have snow.  Snow is<BR>
> when you wake up in the morning and look at the white lumps in front of you<BR>
> house, trying to decide which one is your car.  Having said that, I know we<BR>
> have some Finn Landers and Alaskans on this list.  I expect to hear 'Naw,<BR>
> that's not snow, now here in [insert place] we have REAL snow.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I recall the winter when I and a friend were walking after some<BR>
new snow had fallen. It was overcast, so the light was pretty<BR>
"sourceless". We *both* tried to lean on a snowbank that wasn't there! <BR>
<BR>
That smooth white surface and lack of shadows can fool you. <BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, a note on arctic camoflauge. We learned the hard way that you<BR>
*don't* wash white items in modern detergents if you intend to use them<BR>
as camouflage. You see, the "brighteners" make them faintly *purple*<BR>
and they stand out like a sore thumb against snow.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:52:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: EMP weapons (drafty+++)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Good design and could be very useful, but how would you tune a flux<BR>
> compressor to a particular microwave range?<BR>
<BR>
You don't necessarily have to. But if you do, I expect that the<BR>
microwaves will be of a wavelength that's on the order of the size of<BR>
the device (or one where a simple mutiple of the wavelength equals the<BR>
size).<BR>
<BR>
> And don't you need a fairly hefty electric current to provide the<BR>
> basic charge?<BR>
<BR>
Capacitor discharge. That's how both camera strobe flash units, and<BR>
cardiac defibrillators get the hefty currents they use.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:56:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate<BR>
> if it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?<BR>
> IMTU, I allow someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive<BR>
> (disable safety systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the<BR>
> need of any additional self-destruct device.<BR>
<BR>
Alas, David Weber to the contary, fusion reactors are inherently "fail<BR>
safe" at any scale humans will build. It takes *active* encouragement<BR>
to keep the reaction going. kill the magnetic or gravitic fields, and<BR>
the reaction *stops* instantly.<BR>
<BR>
The energy release in MJ will be much less than the reactor output in<BR>
MW. After all, 1 MW is one MJ per second. Since you'll only have the<BR>
energy from the reactions taking plce during a *fraction* of a second<BR>
still "trapped" in the plasma, that's all the energy you'll have<BR>
available for the "blast".<BR>
<BR>
Say 1/1000th or less. So a 10 GW reactor will only release 10 MJ if you<BR>
kill the containment just right. That's bad for anybody in engineering,<BR>
but doesn't affect the rest of the ship much. Unless I've dropped a<BR>
decimal, 10 MJ is about the same as 2.5 kilos of TNT.<BR>
<BR>
Drives? I can't see most them being easily made to fail<BR>
catastrophically. <BR>
<BR>
And in any case, there's a *much* simpler way to destroy a simple<BR>
that's mostly intact. just rigg something to vent hydrogen into the<BR>
intact compartments until you reach the right concentration (anything<BR>
from 4% to 75% will ignite, but there's an "ideal" mix). Then, close<BR>
the valves, and simultaneously strike a spark in each compartment.<BR>
<BR>
The results will compare favorably with a "baby" nuke. For a bigger<BR>
bang, keep the same mix and run up the pressure as far as the hull can<BR>
handle. And if you can spare the oxygen, mix it in (as "frozen dust")<BR>
in the LH2 tanks. If you can manage to get *those* to an explosive<BR>
ratio, the results will compare with a *real* nuke. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:16:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : EMP weapons article<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> The stuff I recall from years back was that they used an explosive<BR>
>> charge to *implode* the coil, which concentrated the flux lines because<BR>
>> with properly shaped charges, the coil tended to remain sufficiently<BR>
>> intact until it was too late to matter, And the core was definitely<BR>
>> intact, but compressed all to heck.<BR>
><BR>
> Which is the inverse of the description in the New Scientist article,<BR>
> but it should work too. The geometry of the charges for collapsing the<BR>
> coil would be a little more fiddly to work out.<BR>
<BR>
Well, a lot of the types working on this have *lots* of experience with<BR>
imploding stuff where it's a *lot* more critical (nuclear weapons).<BR>
Compared to *that*, this counts as kindergarten stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Also, as I recall, some effects can be enhanced if the<BR>
implosion/explosion is non-uniform. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:01:01 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about $100,000 US.<BR>
Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I have to wait<BR>
for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:53 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
come by.<BR>
<BR>
Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
*that* take. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:55:18 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Any level of gamma radiation that is quickly fatal to humans will fry<BR>
>semiconductors, and likely won't be very good for optical computers<BR>
>*especially* for storage media.<BR>
<BR>
The LD50 for people is only about 600 cGy, which will not cause too much<BR>
damage to military equipment.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:12:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
> Where I'm living now I don't think it does at all (well maybe up on the<BR>
> hills around it). Frankie would probably have a better idea, having<BR>
> been in the area a lot longer.<BR>
<BR>
Definitely on the hills, the Rimutaka pass gets closed once or twice every<BR>
couple of years by snow, and we have had it snow where we are (Pinehaven),<BR>
except the ground was too wet for it settle.<BR>
<BR>
The Tararuas have regular snow as well. I even got stuch up in them once in<BR>
a blizzard.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:16:02 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> > Maybe this will become one of those "back in my day..." things, like the<BR>
> > brown-boot army, or the khaki uniform (oops, I remember that one).<BR>
><BR>
> Here in NZ it's remembering the "black-boot army", back when they real<BR>
> leather boots, and tucked their shirts in.<BR>
<BR>
Hey, I still have my black leather boots !<BR>
Both the combat ones and the flying ones.<BR>
<BR>
And I still tuck  my shirt in too !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:00:29 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Neutron weapons (was RE: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>They kill by *direct* radiation. If they created large amounts of<BR>
>radio-isotopes they'd defeat the purpose, which is to kill personnel<BR>
>with *minimal* contamination of the area of effect.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the isotopes produced by ER weapons (sodium, manganese, aluminum,<BR>
and silicon) decay extremely quickly. This is basically why you can drive<BR>
right into an area (no, not right away) which has been hit with a neutron<BR>
weapon, at least if you are in a tank. Back in the old days, when I was a<BR>
74A5H (nuclear and chemical target analyst), we would rely in the induced<BR>
radiation to produce the bulk of the casualties. But then again, we would<BR>
also ignore any blast or thermal effects when targeting weapons also, since<BR>
the ionizing radiation is the only effect predictable enough to make sure<BR>
that you cause the casualties you want.<BR>
<BR>
Neutron radiation is also not quite as effective against people. To quote FM<BR>
8-9 (sec 504), "gamma photons have been found to be more effective in<BR>
producing early transient incapacitation than either high-energy neutrons or<BR>
fission spectrum neutrons."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:12:41 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 8:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
> come by. <BR>
> <BR>
> Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
> *that* take. :-)<BR>
<BR>
First you'd have to have permission from U.S. Customs to import the weapon.<BR>
<BR>
Then you'd have to pay the $200 tax to register your "destructive device";<BR>
you'd have to supply your photo, your fingerprints, and an application<BR>
signed by your local chief law enforcement official.<BR>
<BR>
Just don't tell the NRC, the EPA, the FBI, etc.<BR>
<BR>
And remember, the tax covers just that item, so if you use your nuke up,<BR>
you'll have to pay the tax again for the next one.<BR>
<BR>
- -Sparky<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:26:50 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Fast Drug (was Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug))<BR>
<BR>
> Yeah. Fast drug is a bit of a nuisance as described, given the<BR>
> problems with hypothermia (cool to ambient temp within 4-6 hours, at<BR>
> most, and then die from cardiac standstill), coma (half cerebral<BR>
> metabolic rate=coma with EEG, quarter=flatline EEG), and infection<BR>
> (presumably your commensal bacteria don't get a dose when you take it).<BR>
<BR>
 I'm a fan of Charles Sheffield's "Between the Strokes of Night," so Fast <BR>
Drug will continue to have a place IMTU...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:42:53 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Auth Thaum<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/5/00 4:59:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Re: Auth Thau<BR>
>  <BR>
>  > Do you know what changes were made from the original (I thought it was <BR>
>  >  supposed to be a reprint)?<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I _think_ he just corrected some typos and added a bit here and there. <BR>
>  Frankly, I've never read either book (see this week's JTAS editorial for <BR>
the <BR>
> <BR>
>  a glimpse at the reason).<BR>
>  <BR>
>  LKW<BR>
<BR>
    Well the original covered Magic from a psionic viewpoint so it's as <BR>
applicable to Traveller as it is to Fantasy games (both C&S and Shadowrun <BR>
used it as a basis, both are good fantasy magic systems in their own ways. At <BR>
least they make sense).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:56:32 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: D20<BR>
<BR>
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> > But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was<BR>
> >  introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
><BR>
> I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
<BR>
You'd have difficulty, there were D20 systems before there were roleplaying<BR>
gams.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:12:53 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Leonard  Erickson wrote :<BR>
> > How much air and water are integral to vaccsuits, etc.?<BR>
> > What are the sources of resupply aboard ship?<BR>
><BR>
> There's a *far* more critical factor limiting how long you can stay in<BR>
> a vaccsuit. One that has yet to be solved. Waste disposal.<BR>
><BR>
> Urine is *easy* to deal with for men. For women, it requires a<BR>
> catheter, which is both unpleasant and prone to cause infections.<BR>
<BR>
> Feces are the big problem. The current "solution" is disposable<BR>
> diapers. Yes, the disposable diasper is actually a spin-off of the<BR>
> space program!<BR>
><BR>
> Obviously, this is *not* practical for more than a few hours. No way is<BR>
> it doable for days.<BR>
<BR>
I used to go for days without shitting when tramping through the bush,<BR>
because I preferred using a real toilet. There are many people who do this<BR>
without wanting to as well. _Days_ are not a problem. _Weeks_ are.<BR>
<BR>
> Short of nanotech, or surgical modification, I don't really see a<BR>
> solution.<BR>
><BR>
> Food is also a problem. Both because it's hard to get it into a sealed<BR>
> suit, but also because it'll contribute to the fecal problem...<BR>
<BR>
Again not for a period of days. Enough energy can be packed into liquid<BR>
nutrient bags<BR>
about the size of a coke can to keep you "well-fed" for a couple of days.<BR>
<BR>
However, why bother ?  Any previoously well-fed person can survive without<BR>
serious loss of ability for at least a week without _any_ food , especially<BR>
without much physical exertion.<BR>
<BR>
You need liquids more.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:16:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about<BR>
> $100,000 US.<BR>
> Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I<BR>
> have to wait for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
<BR>
There's a guy in New Zealand who bought a couple of Russian jet fighters,<BR>
has them sitting in<BR>
a field outside his farmhouse.<BR>
<BR>
No problem buying them or importing them, the problem is getting permission<BR>
to fly them !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2733<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2734</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, July 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2734<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Roc: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Roc: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Roc: To Paul Sanders...<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: Jury Duty<BR>
RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Fixed Fortifications (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:21:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 5:41 PM, Robert O'Connor at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod, some comments :-<BR>
>> I wanted Stygian Bliss to<BR>
>> be something akin to Fugu (sp?), i.e. a euphoric that is potentially deadly.<BR>
> Any euphoria due to fugu is purely due to a gourmand's appetite being<BR>
> sated, not the fugu's active ingredient!<BR>
> <BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
> Sorry about the logorrhoea, everyone.<BR>
> <BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
> 'Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, and don't skimp on the<BR>
> oxygen.'<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Robert, you are beautiful, Man.  May I use this info on my website? If you,<BR>
how would you like to be give credit?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:33:12 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 6:00 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> One of my pet peeves has always been the assumption, both among<BR>
> civilians in general and in RPG settings in particular, that only<BR>
> officers have knowledge worth knowing.  (For example, according to<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
As you state, a view held by civilians.  To use a civilian example, you want<BR>
to know how to make your software run.  Do you want help/infomation from the<BR>
CEO or head of marketing, or from the $10/hr tech support grunt?<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> JOHN E. GROTH<BR>
> SFC, LAARNG<BR>
> Platoon Sergeant<BR>
<BR>
The NCO is the backbone of the service.  I've seen it from above and from<BR>
below.  I want those professional grunts in my army.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:35:32 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 6:42 PM, Bolie Williams IV at bolie@io.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A fusion power plant would be very difficult to turn into a bomb.<BR>
> Only a pulsed fusion plant would even be able to be turned into a<BR>
> bomb and then it probably wouldn't be very powerful.<BR>
<BR>
Please define powerful. Or not very powerful.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:39:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 7:29 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> <<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
> possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
> section.  Since civilian fusion-powered starships _are_ relatively<BR>
> common, we must assume that fusion plants can't be rigged to go BOOM.<BR>
> Maybe _bang_ (destroying the plant, and damaging the rest of<BR>
> engineering), but not BOOM.<BR>
<BR>
Well, terrorist could certainly aim a ship at a city and crash it at very<BR>
high velocities.  And I didn't say it would be easy.  With time and the<BR>
right materials and knowledge, you can make just about any powered vehicle<BR>
go boom.  Why should star ships be any 'safer than an airliner?<BR>
<BR>
Just curious.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:42:29 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 8:56 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm told that the military handles this by having critical chips rigged<BR>
> with a thermite charge that's set off by the destruct switch. It'll do<BR>
> well with HDs too.<BR>
> <BR>
All artillery units carry thermite grenades to destroy the gun tubes if<BR>
required.  Should be adequate for ship's systems.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:45:15 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 8:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
> come by. <BR>
> <BR>
> Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
> *that* take. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Cheryl answered this one.  I think you also need to fill out an ATF form 6<BR>
and 6A.  Cheryl?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:02:08 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 5:11 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Is it just my imagination, or an indication of the average age of the<BR>
> people on this list that most of the Star Trek references are from the<BR>
> original series?  :)<BR>
> (Classic Trekker and proud of it - Reruns?  Hell, I have memories of the<BR>
> original broadcasts)<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
<BR>
The original is the best.  We has a Captain who knew how to fight, kick<BR>
alien butt and still bag the babe in every episode.  The token emotion free<BR>
alien bright boy didn't have weird symbolic dream-things going on or just<BR>
'go off' and put the whole crew at risk.  The doc knew how to fix a decnt<BR>
drink (mint julip with proper bourbon) and the engineer could not only fix<BR>
anything with spit and bailing wire, but he could get a REAL woman.<BR>
<BR>
Whai is it with the folks who wrote ST:TNG?    If we could just understand<BR>
each other, then we'd all be friends?  And how about how to run a vessel.<BR>
Did any of those writers ever hear of 'unity of command'?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, IMTU the happy crew of 'politically correct Star Trek' would be eaten<BR>
alive. We liked B5 better anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:10:49 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
on 7/6/00 3:00 PM, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems<BR>
>> handle this too. I know the French have a different method for<BR>
>> conducting trials, are there some other methods that the TML<BR>
>> members are familar with that you'd care to tell us about?<BR>
> <BR>
> I can't speak to the French civil tort system, but I have read<BR>
> that in the criminal system, the two important differences are<BR>
> that the judge is empowered as an investigator, and the burden of<BR>
> proof is on the accused.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
France must have something like jury nullification.  I recall reading about<BR>
a 'crime of passion' in France where a woman shot her husband.  (apparently,<BR>
this is not uncommon there).  It seems the gentleman had a mistress--very<BR>
French--but he was very vulgar about the whole thing, openly dis-ing the<BR>
missus while cavorting about town with his 'side action'.  Finally, the wife<BR>
had enough, and gave him 'what for' with a revolver.  The evidence clearly<BR>
proved her guilt.<BR>
<BR>
The case was brought to trial, and the jurors allowed that her husband was a<BR>
pig and probably had it coming.  They considered finding her guilty of only<BR>
manslaughter, but when it was indicated that though she would only receive<BR>
probation, she would lose custody of her children.  She was found 'not<BR>
guilty'.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:55:48 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 10:52:am<BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > [1] Or navy pay and/or conditions of employment lowered.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Alternatively, don't have seperate recruiting for each service. You apply<BR>
to<BR>
> join the 'military', and are then sent on a 'pre'-basic training course of<BR>
a<BR>
> week or so. You are evaluated for which service you are best suited and<BR>
then<BR>
> passed on to the appropriate service basic training depending on your<BR>
> aptitude and the military's need at the time.<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe the military thinks like that does it?  A friend of mine,<BR>
his father ENLISTED during the war, a respected civil engineer at the<BR>
time... he was made a cook!  Of course, this isn't the first time I herd<BR>
that kind of story, but there was photographic and documental proof on hand.<BR>
And as usual, I'm sure there are other TML'ers able to supply some really<BR>
off-beat examples of some of these things (I love you guys - the way you do<BR>
that!).  Wasn't there a famous(?) British, pre-war racing car driver that<BR>
was never allowed to drive a military vehicle as a soldier after he<BR>
enlisted?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:24:16 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 4:39:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get<BR>
yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 7:29 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <<snip>><BR>
> ><BR>
> > What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
> > possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
> > section.  Since civilian fusion-powered starships _are_ relatively<BR>
> > common, we must assume that fusion plants can't be rigged to go BOOM.<BR>
> > Maybe _bang_ (destroying the plant, and damaging the rest of<BR>
> > engineering), but not BOOM.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, terrorist could certainly aim a ship at a city and crash it at very<BR>
> high velocities.  And I didn't say it would be easy.  With time and the<BR>
> right materials and knowledge, you can make just about any powered vehicle<BR>
> go boom.  Why should star ships be any 'safer than an airliner?<BR>
><BR>
> Just curious.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think what the notion was, is that a fusion engine that can be made to go<BR>
"Boom!' will produce a Hiroshima or worse -like effect local to the vessel<BR>
while in port (taking out either the High Port and surrounding<BR>
satellites/vessels if in orbit, or the entire city in which the Down Port is<BR>
located).  Simply crashing an aircraft into a city doesn't quite have that<BR>
same destructive energy, nor would a crashed starship I assume?  I think<BR>
that's what he was trying to say?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:34:50 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: To Paul Sanders...<BR>
<BR>
Paul!<BR>
Many thanks to you for the excellent job you seem to have done on the Keith<BR>
Supplements.  I received them this arvo, and though I have not had the time<BR>
to read them yet, I have browsed all of them and am more than happy with<BR>
what I have seen.  I am happy to join the ranks of the owners of these<BR>
supplements.<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:42:27 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
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<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> There's a *far* more critical factor limiting how long you can stay in<BR>
> a vaccsuit. One that has yet to be solved. Waste disposal.<BR>
> <BR>
> Urine is *easy* to deal with for men. For women, it requires a<BR>
> catheter, which is both unpleasant and prone to cause infections.<BR>
> <BR>
> Feces are the big problem. The current "solution" is disposable<BR>
> diapers. Yes, the disposable diasper is actually a spin-off of the<BR>
> space program!<BR>
> <BR>
> Obviously, this is *not* practical for more than a few hours. No way is<BR>
> it doable for days.<BR>
> <BR>
> Short of nanotech, or surgical modification, I don't really see a<BR>
> solution.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
So the ships toilets would need to have autonomous life support systems<BR>
and power to allow the ships crew to fight against the boarders for that<BR>
extra week.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway I think that the psychological impact of having your ship<BR>
disabled and boarded will persuade most of the crew to surrender at<BR>
first opportunity. So in most cases the boarding party would just round<BR>
up the survivors (who I think would be the most valuable intel source).<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 11:01:36 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I can't speak to the French civil tort system, but I have read<BR>
> > that in the criminal system, the two important differences are<BR>
> > that the judge is empowered as an investigator, and the burden of<BR>
> > proof is on the accused.<BR>
<BR>
Most civil law tradition systems are or at least were in some sense<BR>
inquisitorial, i.e. the judge has the obligation to find out the truth<BR>
and not just act as a referee between the prosecution and defendant. Now<BR>
this is being dismantled almost everywhere as it has been realised that<BR>
the inquisitorial judge quite often acts as a prosecutor in stead.<BR>
<BR>
As to the burden of proof in criminal cases it is always on the<BR>
prosecution and has always been. (Of course the judges haven't always<BR>
been too picky as to the level of proof, i.e. if he confessed during<BR>
torture and admitted that his confession was correct after torture [he<BR>
would be tortured again if he didn't] then it is enough proof) <BR>
<BR>
> France must have something like jury nullification.  I recall reading about<BR>
> a 'crime of passion' in France where a woman shot her husband.  (apparently,<BR>
> this is not uncommon there). <BR>
<BR>
> snip <BR>
<BR>
> The case was brought to trial, and the jurors allowed that her husband was a<BR>
> pig and probably had it coming.  They considered finding her guilty of only<BR>
> manslaughter, but when it was indicated that though she would only receive<BR>
> probation, she would lose custody of her children.  She was found 'not<BR>
> guilty'.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
In many states including France, there is a notion of crime of passion,<BR>
where the perpetrator is punished more leniently if his act was done in<BR>
the heat of the moment and not due to premeditation, but this is not the<BR>
same as "not guilty". However, if the evidence was clear and the court<BR>
made an illegal decision, I as a prosecutor would appeal the case to an<BR>
appellate court and get the decision reversed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:02:42 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Peter Newman" <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> > Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > > they did<BR>
> > > need to draft men in huge numbers. everybody was trying to<BR>
> > > enlist in the Navy<BR>
<BR>
> > Then to get more people to enlist in the Army their rate of<BR>
> > pay and/or conditions of employment should have been raised. [1]<BR>
> > If the quantity of Army people supplied by the labor market<BR>
> > did not meet the quantity demanded than the labor market was<BR>
> > not at equilibrium.<BR>
> > [1] Or navy pay and/or conditions of employment lowered.<BR>
<BR>
> Alternatively, don't have seperate recruiting for each service. You apply to<BR>
> join the 'military', and are then sent on a 'pre'-basic training course of a<BR>
> week or so. You are evaluated for which service you are best suited and then<BR>
> passed on to the appropriate service basic training depending on your<BR>
> aptitude and the military's need at the time.<BR>
<BR>
This would increase the uncertainty of the labor transaction. <BR>
People don't like uncertainties and you have to pay them more<BR>
to accept them. Therefore this would increase your force costs<BR>
which is (presumably) undesirable.<BR>
<BR>
> In any case, you need to draft as the government has a better understanding<BR>
> of its forthcoming military needs than the public. <BR>
<BR>
That is totally irrelevant. People do not accept jobs based<BR>
on their understanding of the perceived need for these jobs, <BR>
people accept jobs based on the perceived return from those<BR>
jobs. Whatever 'patriotic' feelings your potential military<BR>
labor pool may or may not have are a factor affecting their<BR>
perceived return from those jobs.<BR>
<BR>
Essentially patriotism is a meme that governments encourage.<BR>
If the personnel department for a company can dupe potential<BR>
employee's into believing that working for them results in the<BR>
creation of positive externalities they will be able to get more<BR>
employees at the same price. The same rules apply to a company<BR>
that is d.b.a. as 'The United States Army' as apply to a company<BR>
d.b.a. 'International Business Machines', hence by encouraging<BR>
the patriotism meme the military can save on its personnel costs.<BR>
<BR>
If your claim that the military's understanding of their personnel<BR>
needs is more accurate than the general populations perception <BR>
of those needs than the military simply needs to hire people up to<BR>
the personnel level it desires. This does not necessarily require<BR>
a draft. A draft is required only if you are unwilling or unable to<BR>
pay people enough to get them to voluntarily accept the job.<BR>
As with so many other things the draft is essentially about money.<BR>
<BR>
> You can't go from a peacetime TO&E to a wartime one overnight. <BR>
<BR>
So? This is an argument for a standing military, not necessarily<BR>
an argument for a draftee military.<BR>
<BR>
> You need to be training up<BR>
> soldiers months before a crisis reaches the point where the public decides<BR>
> that 'something needs to be done, and I'm the one to do it'. Yes volunteers<BR>
> are nice, but they may be to late, especially now warfare has become that<BR>
> much more technological and specialised.<BR>
<BR>
Volunteers are not enlisting because 'something needs to be done'<BR>
they are enlisting because 'The economic value of protecting my<BR>
genes and the copies of my genes found in my relatives and the<BR>
attendant physical possesions plus the pay offered by the military<BR>
are greater than or eaual to my reservation wage for accepting the<BR>
job of a soldier.'<BR>
<BR>
> Airmen, Tankers, Gunners, Sailors all need more training than handing them a<BR>
> gun and a uniform and spending a couple of weeks square-bashing before being<BR>
> pointed in the direction of the Enemy and let loose. You have to begin<BR>
> training sufficient forces to meet your needs for the first few months of a<BR>
> major war, to cover the time it will take to train those that will not<BR>
> otherwise get involved until the outbreak of hostilities.<BR>
<BR>
Than you do so by hiring people ahead of time. The military is<BR>
essentially in the insurance business. [1] The citizens of an<BR>
area hire them to ensure them against the possibility of being<BR>
killed and/or conquered by soldiers who work for rival governments.<BR>
If the people of a country choose to under insure themselves they<BR>
will suffer when disaster strikes. Similarly if they choose to<BR>
underfund their militaries they may or will suffer problems if<BR>
a threat emerges. If, due to technical changes in the profession <BR>
of arms, more training is needed than was needed in the past than<BR>
more people ought to be hired ahead of time.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Although the militarys of some countries are essentially in <BR>
the protection racket business....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:11:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 13:32, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You are forced to get up early, drive downtown, pay your<BR>
> own parking, miss work (and loose pay for doing so) to<BR>
> wait around to be examined in open court in front of<BR>
> dozens of people and forced to explain your political<BR>
> views. When you do so the judge looks at you very strangely<BR>
> and says you can go. One month later you get a check<BR>
> for $5.00 US. no matter what you write on the jury duty<BR>
> form you can not be excused by the court clerks so you have<BR>
> to go downtown at a very early hour and wait around half the<BR>
> day to explain this to the judge.<BR>
<BR>
I think that in this country you're supposed to be paid by your <BR>
employer for the time you spend on jury service, and the government <BR>
pays your jury fee to your employer as some sort of compensation, but <BR>
I'm not sure.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:11:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 12:50, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> That depends.  There are more than a few recorded incidents of ships being<BR>
> drooped to the bottom.  Especially by the British, whole had a fondness<BR>
> for hull shots.  The Bonhomme Richard vs. the Serapis comes to mind. <BR>
> Jones, having won the day, was forced to transfer his flag as the<BR>
> 'Richard' slipped under.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it did happen, but look at the stats for Trafalger - very few <BR>
ships were sunk compared to the number which were boarded, usually <BR>
after they'd struck their colours because there weren't enough men to <BR>
operate them properly.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:11:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Fixed Fortifications (was Re: Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 9:56, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Depends on how likely it is that ortillery (or effective artillery) <BR>
> will come along.  Every grav vehicle in the inventory can probably <BR>
> move fast enough to avoid smiting, but dodging is not in a fixed <BR>
> fortification's job description.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming PD for vehicles any effective artillery would pretty much have <BR>
to meson or direct fire, and direct fire vs a fort's fire-power is a <BR>
death sentence.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:11:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 12:55, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I think that this vision of the Traveller universe has been heavily<BR>
> > influenced by where we have played the game. I for one, have never<BR>
> > played anything outside the Spinward Marches. This view may be perfectly<BR>
> > accurate there, but I envision most of the 3I as being much more<BR>
> > peaceful, so that armed merchants are really only a frontier thing.<BR>
> <BR>
> Armed merchants are probably less of a 'frontier' thing than a 'minor<BR>
> world' thing.  If you yell for help within the 100D limit of a major<BR>
> world, you're going to have help within an hour.  The problem is that near<BR>
> a minor world there may be no-one to help you.<BR>
<BR>
If you yell for help within 100D of a major world there's a good chance <BR>
there's something in firing range of whatever's hastling you :) <BR>
Therefore you won't get hastled.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 02:20:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
<BR>
    Got this off the Phoenix Command list, take it as you will.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Eero Juhola <ejuhola@sci.fi><BR>
To: Phoenix Command Mailing List <phoenix_command@talklist.com><BR>
Date: Sunday, July 02, 2000 9:06 AM<BR>
Subject: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Phoenix Command Mailing List<BR>
>-------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>    This is my initial version of the Soviet armor shield.<BR>
>If anyone has additions or comments, please let me know.<BR>
><BR>
>    Bibliography:<BR>
>    Military Museum Winter War exhibit, Liisankatu 1, Helsinki.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>One-Man Armored Shield<BR>
> USSR<BR>
><BR>
> Length: 33   in  (85   cm) estimated<BR>
> Width : 37   in  (95   cm) estimated<BR>
> Heigth: 22   in  (55   cm) estimated<BR>
> Weight: 77.6 lbs (35.2 kg) estimated<BR>
><BR>
> Armor plate:  5 mm at 45 degrees<BR>
><BR>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
>PCCS Stats:<BR>
><BR>
>   PF: 20<BR>
>   PCCS single shot & Mechanized Size ALM: +8 shield, -7 hole<BR>
>   PCCS automatic fire Auto Elev ALM     : +6 shield, -7 hole<BR>
>   PCCS automatic fire Auto Width ALM    : +9 shield, -7 hole<BR>
>   Encumbrance: 25.9/77.6 lbs (11.7/35.2 kg)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>    After the initial successes of the Winter War the Red Army became<BR>
bogged<BR>
>down on all fronts. By mid-December, two weeks after crossing the border,<BR>
the<BR>
>invaders' advance had been halted at the defensive lines of Taipale, Summa,<BR>
>Kollaa and other places. The Soviet doctrine of the massed infantry charge<BR>
by<BR>
>the proletarian army led to frightening losses among the attackers when the<BR>
>brave but badly led soldiers surged again and again against the Finnish<BR>
>defenses.<BR>
><BR>
>    The Finns had few anti-tank weapons and thus Russian tanks could often<BR>
>penetrate through. But the accompanying infantry was usually cut down by<BR>
hails<BR>
>of bullets from the defenders' automatic weapons. Soviet doctrine called<BR>
for<BR>
>tanks to support infantry and when the infantry were unable to proceed, the<BR>
>tanks would eventually return back to the Russian lines.<BR>
><BR>
>    Perhaps because the doctrine could not immediately be changed the Red<BR>
Army<BR>
>manufactured crudely-made armored shields in an effort to enable their<BR>
infantry<BR>
>to close to charging distance without suffering as many losses. These one<BR>
and<BR>
>two-man shields soon showed up on all fronts where the Finns had fixed<BR>
>defenses.<BR>
><BR>
>    The one-man shield consisted of a white-painted, bent steel plate with<BR>
>three corners so that it would offer some protection for the soldier from<BR>
>oblique shots as well. The shield rested on skis which enabled the prone<BR>
>soldier to push his protective device along. Because the shield is on skis<BR>
its<BR>
>weight is not directly added to the soldier's encumbrance. As long as the<BR>
>surface on which the shield is being moved is snow or ice, its effect is<BR>
only<BR>
>one third of its weight. However when the surface is sand, concrete or<BR>
other<BR>
>non-slippery surface its full weight is added to his encumbrance.<BR>
><BR>
>    The soldier lay prone behind the shield which protected only his head,<BR>
>shoulders and part of his upper body. When he was advancing straight<BR>
towards<BR>
>the enemy his legs could not be hit but as he advanced further he often<BR>
became<BR>
>more and more exposed.<BR>
><BR>
>    He could peer and aim is rifle through a round, ten-centimeter hole<BR>
>slightly offset to the right from the centerline. Fire from behind a shield<BR>
is<BR>
>considered Braced (+1 ALM). The hole is Size ALM -7. Fifty percent of<BR>
rounds<BR>
>hitting the hole will strike the soldier's rifle, if it is in position, and<BR>
>possibly continue on to strike the soldier in the head, right arm, right<BR>
>shoulder or upper body. The rest of rounds hitting the hole will<BR>
automatically<BR>
>strike the soldier. Rounds not hitting the hole but whose EAL still enables<BR>
>them to hit Size ALM +2 targets will hit the soldier if they penetrate the<BR>
>shield. Rounds not hitting Size ALM +2 targets but whose EAL is enough to<BR>
hit<BR>
>Size ALM +8 targets will hit the shield but not the soldier.<BR>
><BR>
>    As intended the five-millimeter steel plate protected the soldier from<BR>
both<BR>
>rifle and machine gun fire. However the Finns soon begun issuing<BR>
armor-piercing<BR>
>bullets to soldiers for use against shields and these would still punch<BR>
through<BR>
>the armor. When available, anti-tank rifles such as the Boys were also used<BR>
to<BR>
>counter this new threat.<BR>
>    For players using the Integrated Morale Rules, soldiers behind shields<BR>
are<BR>
>immune to Morale effects caused by non-penetrating rounds striking the<BR>
shield<BR>
>or by bullets fired from within the front Arc and landing within what is<BR>
>normally Critical Distance. However they suffer normal Morale effects due<BR>
to<BR>
>rounds which would certainly penetrate the shield if they struck, such as<BR>
>anti-tank gun rounds, and due to rounds fired from outside the protective<BR>
Arc.<BR>
>    The shields often enabled the soldiers to close near enough to charge.<BR>
>However psychologically it was difficult to leave the relative safety of<BR>
the<BR>
>shield so players may wish to require soldiers wishing to do so to roll<BR>
under<BR>
>KVx4 or suffer a reduction in their Morale state.<BR>
><BR>
>    Despite their Medieval appearance and sometimes rather questionable<BR>
combat<BR>
>value, the armored shields were yet another tool in the Red Army's<BR>
selection<BR>
>with which they set out to reduce the Mannerheim line and other static<BR>
>positions of the defenders. With the introduction of bigger and better<BR>
tanks,<BR>
>more and larger caliber guns, armored sleighs and - most importantly -<BR>
>ever-increasing numbers of troops, the pressure would mount and eventually<BR>
>crush many of those positions. However major changes in doctrine, practices<BR>
and<BR>
>leadership would be needed before any real gains could be made in the war.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>==============================<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>   Best Regards,<BR>
><BR>
>   Eero Juhola<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>   "It is important to note that this scenario is to be used as an<BR>
introduction<BR>
>to the game system and/or the campaign. It is not to be used to terminate<BR>
new<BR>
>player-characters."<BR>
>   (MERC Campaign Book I: Rhodesia, introductory scenario)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>-------------------------------------<BR>
>To unsubscribe send an email to:<BR>
>requests@talklist.com<BR>
>with<BR>
>UNSUBSCRIBE PHOENIX_COMMAND<BR>
>in the BODY of the message.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2734<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2735</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, July 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2735<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Roc: Jury Duty<BR>
Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
Re: D20<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2733<BR>
MOSs<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
re: Useful Prisoners <BR>
Re: Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 19:54:16 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 7:11:pm<BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On 6 Jul 00, at 13:32, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > You are forced to get up early, drive downtown, pay your<BR>
> > own parking, miss work (and loose pay for doing so) to<BR>
> > wait around to be examined in open court in front of<BR>
> > dozens of people and forced to explain your political<BR>
> > views. When you do so the judge looks at you very strangely<BR>
> > and says you can go. One month later you get a check<BR>
> > for $5.00 US. no matter what you write on the jury duty<BR>
> > form you can not be excused by the court clerks so you have<BR>
> > to go downtown at a very early hour and wait around half the<BR>
> > day to explain this to the judge.<BR>
><BR>
> I think that in this country you're supposed to be paid by your<BR>
> employer for the time you spend on jury service, and the government<BR>
> pays your jury fee to your employer as some sort of compensation, but<BR>
> I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, another thing I failed to mention about the Aussie system... you also<BR>
got paid by your boss who got your jury pay directly, OR, if on social<BR>
security, you continued to get paid by the government, the jury pay is on<BR>
top of that again (Social Security as it would come under your maximum<BR>
allowed fortnightly earnings).  I haven't been on the dole for many, many<BR>
years now, and it has changed (I think you keep a diary of job seeking and<BR>
go in once every couple of months instead of fortnightly??), but in the old<BR>
days, jury duty was an acceptable reason for having someone else submit your<BR>
dole-form for you (something you couldn't normally do... if you didn't do it<BR>
personally, they cut you off at once!  If you couldn't do it because you<BR>
were ill, they put you on sickness benefits which were a lower rate, until<BR>
you proved you were again, available for work - but that's a different<BR>
story/thread I'd like to pursue at a later date... how other Social Security<BR>
systems work, to include as ideas for Traveller), and they couldn't cut your<BR>
dole off, or back, for being "unavailable for work."<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:21:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding (was Boby Bunkers)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:56 PM<BR>
> Leonard Erickson said,<BR>
><BR>
> Re: Scuttling Charges<BR>
><BR>
>> I'm told that the military handles this by having critical chips rigged<BR>
>> with a thermite charge that's set off by the destruct switch. It'll do<BR>
>> well with HDs too.<BR>
>><BR>
>> You can also rig a *small* explosive charge in either case. A shaped<BR>
>> charge, or better yet, set of them set up to *implode* the chip or HD<BR>
>> is even better.<BR>
><BR>
> I just don't like the idea of destruct charges wired into the system.  I<BR>
> keep envisioning power surges or bad programs setting them off.<BR>
<BR>
The detonation signals go via seperate wiring, with positive safeties.<BR>
You'd have to do something along the lines of flip up a cover and<BR>
insert the "plug" that's hanging by a chain attached next to the cover,<BR>
just to *arm* the circuit. Until you do that, the circuit can't<BR>
complete except under circumstances that make the equipment's usability<BR>
kinda pointless.<BR>
<BR>
> I can just see a small power surge as the ship mis-jumps blowing the main<BR>
> navigation console.<BR>
<BR>
> *Lurch*<BR>
> We're screwed.<BR>
> *Bang!*<BR>
> We're really screwed!<BR>
<BR>
Unless they had the destruct circuit *armed* the power surge would have<BR>
to jump thru a cm or so of heavy duty insulation at the arming port. Or<BR>
you'd have to have arcing bad enough to get thru the insulation on the<BR>
wires inside the case. That sort of arcing would fry the unit *anyway*.<BR>
<BR>
>> Actually, nav data is pretty hard to keep secret unless you prevent<BR>
>> *all* civilian traffic in the system. Think of it like most countries<BR>
>> these days. You can *buy* USGS or Ordinance Survey maps that are *more*<BR>
>> than adequate, and get them out of the country easily.<BR>
><BR>
> Any data civilians have access to, or can observe is pretty hard to keep<BR>
> secret.  Luckily most people are very unobservant..  Then again there is a<BR>
> lot of data a civilian can pick up that they might not be aware is supposed<BR>
> to be classified.  Back when I lived in Yakima I used to hear of things all<BR>
> the time to only find our several months later that they where supposed to<BR>
> be secrets.  Of course when you have a good size base with an NSA post in an<BR>
> area with little or no recreation besides gaming, shooting, and drinking<BR>
> it's not surprising.<BR>
<BR>
Also, it'd be fairly easy to insert a "chunk of rock" into an orbit<BR>
that passed near enough a planet to get good data. Sure, it'd take<BR>
years for it to make the pass on anything that looked like a natural<BR>
orbit. But there are a lot of things that you can learn to supplement<BR>
what your trawlers... pardon me... *freighters* can pick up.<BR>
<BR>
Hell, a few listening posts scattered around at 30+ AU with *huge*<BR>
passive sensor arrays can learn a lot too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 17:16, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> > > Maybe this will become one of those "back in my day..." things, like<BR>
> > > the brown-boot army, or the khaki uniform (oops, I remember that one).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Here in NZ it's remembering the "black-boot army", back when they real<BR>
> > leather boots, and tucked their shirts in.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hey, I still have my black leather boots !<BR>
> Both the combat ones and the flying ones.<BR>
<BR>
Three pairs of combat boots, though they're pretty worn out. Being Army <BR>
I never got flying ones (do they have wings?)<BR>
> <BR>
> And I still tuck  my shirt in too !<BR>
<BR>
Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies <BR>
have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Slavery, Military Service and the Draft<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 1:52, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Airmen, Tankers, Gunners, Sailors all need more training than handing them<BR>
> a gun and a uniform and spending a couple of weeks square-bashing before<BR>
> being pointed in the direction of the Enemy and let loose. You have to<BR>
> begin training sufficient forces to meet your needs for the first few<BR>
> months of a major war, to cover the time it will take to train those that<BR>
> will not otherwise get involved until the outbreak of hostilities.<BR>
<BR>
Actually so do grunts. If you don't train them properly and the enemy <BR>
does all you've done is get a lot of your citizens killed.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: D20<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 20:13, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was <BR>
> >  introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
Now that would've been poetic justice.<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 20:40, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, a note on arctic camoflauge. We learned the hard way that you<BR>
> *don't* wash white items in modern detergents if you intend to use them as<BR>
> camouflage. You see, the "brighteners" make them faintly *purple* and they<BR>
> stand out like a sore thumb against snow.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, they flourese (sp) under UV light, which snow reflects <BR>
wonderfully (as any skier who's been careless with the sunscreen will <BR>
tell you).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 17:12, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Where I'm living now I don't think it does at all (well maybe up on the<BR>
> > hills around it). Frankie would probably have a better idea, having been<BR>
> > in the area a lot longer.<BR>
> <BR>
> Definitely on the hills, the Rimutaka pass gets closed once or twice every<BR>
> couple of years by snow, and we have had it snow where we are (Pinehaven),<BR>
> except the ground was too wet for it settle.<BR>
> <BR>
> The Tararuas have regular snow as well. I even got stuch up in them once<BR>
> in a blizzard.<BR>
<BR>
I assumed they would, as they do everywhere else. My parents' house is <BR>
up against the foothills just south of Palmerston North, and we used to <BR>
get snow about once every 3-4 years.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 17:10, John Groth wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
> > > If the enemy ship is disabled and you control the system, there must<BR>
> > > be ways to clear it.  How about detonating a neutron bomb in close<BR>
> > > proximity?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Depends how much damage you want to do to vital ship systems.<BR>
> > Radiation that will penetrate a starship-grade hull may scramble<BR>
> > the computers and control systems your intel boys are salivating<BR>
> > over long before the defending crew drops dead.<BR>
> <BR>
> As one of those intel boys, I want both electronics _and_ crewbeings as<BR>
> intact as possible....<BR>
<BR>
The ex-intell part of me agrees. However the ex-grunt part says that <BR>
prisoners and intell data are neat but not dying in the entry is <BR>
better. IOW intell can have anything that's left after the shooting <BR>
stops and be happy. If they want more they can go in forst, without pre-<BR>
nuking the ship and get it themselves :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:26:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
On 6 Jul 00, at 20:00, John Groth wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As an interrogator, I would dearly love to get my hands on the enlisted<BR>
> personnel (including petty officers/NCOs) who actually operate the<BR>
> equipment on a warship or other combat system.  After all, they probably<BR>
> know _far_ more about their specialty than the generalist officers who<BR>
> supervise them.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't an interrogator, but I agree. Besides SNCOs quite often know a <BR>
hell of a lot more about what's actually going on in their army than <BR>
most officers.<BR>
<BR>
> Besides, who actually types up, encrypts, sends out, receives, decrypts,<BR>
> and distributes operations orders, intelligence estimates, and other vital<BR>
> documents of intelligence interest?  The enlisted personnel, of course. <BR>
> The officers have other responsibilies.<BR>
<BR>
IME the enlisteds and JNCOs at battalion level quite often do most of <BR>
the actual intell analysis, as well. The Int Officer, aside from being <BR>
an Ops Officer who didn't really want to be there was usually away <BR>
fighting to get Ops to take any notice of the intell assesments and/or <BR>
send out recon patrols for intell to do any of that himself (or he was <BR>
brown-nosing to get transferred back to an Ops post). The SNCOs also <BR>
avoid intell at that level, probably because it isn't very good for <BR>
one's career. <BR>
<BR>
It could well be different in the actual MI corps, or at higher levels, <BR>
but that's what I saw in my battalion. It did make my time as an MI <BR>
JNCO a lot more interesting, though.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:08:24 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 7 Jul 00, at 17:16, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> > > > Maybe this will become one of those "back in my day..." things, like<BR>
> > > > the brown-boot army, or the khaki uniform (oops, I remember that one).<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Here in NZ it's remembering the "black-boot army", back when they real<BR>
> > > leather boots, and tucked their shirts in.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hey, I still have my black leather boots !<BR>
> > Both the combat ones and the flying ones.<BR>
><BR>
> Three pairs of combat boots, though they're pretty worn out. Being Army<BR>
> I never got flying ones (do they have wings?)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > And I still tuck  my shirt in too !<BR>
><BR>
> Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies<BR>
> have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no inspection ready<BR>
unit ever passed combat....O.K. the Aussie DP Cam may not look neat but they<BR>
work...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:08:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 21:08, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no inspection<BR>
> ready unit ever passed combat....O.K. the Aussie DP Cam may not look neat<BR>
> but they work...<BR>
<BR>
So did ours, and tucking one's shirt in is a whole lot more comfortable <BR>
when you have to run with webbing on.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:51:08 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2733<BR>
<BR>
> You'd have difficulty, there were D20 systems before there were roleplaying<BR>
>  gams.<BR>
<BR>
Betty Grable had pretty good gams, as I recall . . . just saw _Stalag 17_ for <BR>
the 87th time -- great film ("At ease!").<BR>
<BR>
This is not the place to discuss TM law (and I have only a layman's knowledge <BR>
of that anyway), so I have chosen instead to deflect the discussion onto <BR>
safer territory by leaping upon your amusing typo.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:56:12 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: MOSs<BR>
<BR>
> A friend of mine,<BR>
>  his father ENLISTED during the war, a respected civil engineer at the<BR>
>  time... he was made a cook! <BR>
<BR>
Maybe they had enough engineers . . . <BR>
<BR>
seriously, the WWII US Army was famous for putting people in odd places. My <BR>
uncle scored well enough on marksmanship to have become a sniper, but they <BR>
made him a corpsman because the division needed them more than they needed <BR>
snipers.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:12:47 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> A little bit of pressure eqalization is all you should need to pop <BR>
>> free.  <BR>
><BR>
> That's going to need some *high pressure* air. Otherwise the ground <BR>
> will get pushed into the tubing instead of air coming out of it. <BR>
<BR>
Good point, hadn't thought of that.  Too bad there isn't a really<BR>
powerful energy source handy to drive a small-volume, high-pressure <BR>
air pump.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:34:11 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: re: Useful Prisoners <BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <minor rant> <BR>
><BR>
> As opposed to killing the lowlife enlisted scum who know nothing <BR>
> anyway? <BR>
<BR>
Traveller tends to be a technology-stagnant setting.  The most<BR>
critical information - such as, "Where did the rest of your fleet<BR>
go?", or "When is your Ninth Fleet expected to arrive at Regina?"<BR>
should only be known only by officers and the few enlisted men who <BR>
do clerk and communications duties for those officers.  It is<BR>
quite possible that such information will only exist within the<BR>
Captain's and Executive Officer's minds, as they got it directly<BR>
through a private communication (via courier or eyes-only<BR>
transmission).<BR>
<BR>
(In such cases, the Captain's Bodyguard probably has one final<BR>
sworn duty: ensuring that the Captain and the XO are not captured,<BR>
even if it means killing them himself.)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, what the missile gunners, sensor operators and such do is <BR>
critically important; it should be rare for their equipment to be<BR>
revolutionarily different than the equipment of their opponents.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:02:07 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
<BR>
>    The Finns had few anti-tank weapons and thus Russian tanks could often<BR>
> penetrate through. But the accompanying infantry was usually cut down by<BR>
> hails of bullets from the defenders' automatic weapons. Soviet doctrine<BR>
> called for tanks to support infantry and when the infantry were unable to<BR>
> proceed, the tanks would eventually return back to the Russian lines.<BR>
<BR>
Doctrine doesn't have much to do with this kind of thing.  Unsupported<BR>
tanks are vulnerable.  Stomping the infantry accompanying tanks was a<BR>
standard way of stopping armoured attacks in WW2.  One of the classic<BR>
examples was at Tobruk in 1941, when the German armour broke through the<BR>
defences - and found that they were surrounded.  If they hadn't been able<BR>
to make a quick breakout, the Afrika Korps would have been crippled.<BR>
<BR>
OBTRAV:  For some odd reason the Imperium uses combined arms tactics...<BR>
<BR>
Oh, and an idle thought:  what proportion of mercenary units are basically<BR>
fairly lightly equipped?  What happens when they run into opponents with<BR>
adequate artillery?  (I mean *really* adequate - lots and lots and lots of<BR>
it.)<BR>
<BR>
It's possible that many mercenary units may not be particularly useful<BR>
defending fixed positions, where mobility doesn't equal armour.<BR>
<BR>
This would be something to try in Striker:  have a look at how many guns<BR>
were available in major historical offensives (like the Somme, or Verdun),<BR>
and make them available to a relatively low-tech attacker, facing a<BR>
slightly higher level defender.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:07:41 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <BR>
> Actually Classical Greek ship weapons were horrendously destructive - <BR>
> they just had a short range. <BR>
....<BR>
> Boarding is definately a post-ram idea, mainly from the age of sail,<BR>
> where the chance of actually sinking an enemy with cannon-fire was<BR>
practically nil.<BR>
<BR>
Not quite.  Even in the "classical" ramming periods, most fleets relied<BR>
more on boarding tactics.  Ramming required highly trained crews, in a<BR>
state of fitness that tended to be unsustainable over a fairly lengthy<BR>
campaign.  (That's not to say the rams were unimportant - it's just that<BR>
they were relatively secondary.)<BR>
<BR>
Basically, people like the Athenians and Carthaginians used ram tactics: <BR>
people like the Spartans and Romans used boarding tactics.  Guess who won<BR>
the Peloponesian and Punic Wars?<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:10:07 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin writes:<BR>
>I'm not sure how important the ship's life support systems<BR>
>are.  How long can one live in vaccsuits, combat armor, and<BR>
>battle dress?  A few weeks does not seem impossible to me<BR>
>from a physical perspective, although psychologically it<BR>
>seems to me that training in extended wear of body armor<BR>
>would be crucial.  <BR>
>How much air and water are integral to vaccsuits, etc.? <BR>
>What are the sources of resupply aboard ship?<BR>
<BR>
	IMTU 16 hours is standard, but additional air tanks<BR>
	can extend this.  Recharging air tanks would require<BR>
	equipment that I consider part of the life support<BR>
	systems, and having at least some pressurized areas<BR>
	would improve morale and makes things easier all<BR>
	around.  I would assume that extra air tanks are<BR>
	available, and if there are substantial crew<BR>
	casualties survivors may be able to scavange a large<BR>
	number of spare air tanks, allowing them to survive<BR>
	without any life support for perhaps a week or more.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:16:29 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
"Smith, Walter" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> John Groth wrote:<BR>
> > <minor rant><BR>
> ><BR>
> > As opposed to killing the lowlife enlisted scum who know nothing<BR>
> > anyway?<BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller tends to be a technology-stagnant setting.  The most<BR>
> critical information - such as, "Where did the rest of your fleet<BR>
> go?", or "When is your Ninth Fleet expected to arrive at Regina?"<BR>
> should only be known only by officers and the few enlisted men who<BR>
> do clerk and communications duties for those officers.  It is<BR>
> quite possible that such information will only exist within the<BR>
> Captain's and Executive Officer's minds, as they got it directly<BR>
> through a private communication (via courier or eyes-only<BR>
> transmission).<BR>
> <BR>
> (In such cases, the Captain's Bodyguard probably has one final<BR>
> sworn duty: ensuring that the Captain and the XO are not captured,<BR>
> even if it means killing them himself.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, what the missile gunners, sensor operators and such do is<BR>
> critically important; it should be rare for their equipment to be<BR>
> revolutionarily different than the equipment of their opponents.<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
I disagree, I think given the high tech level there will be massive<BR>
amounts of little technicalities which maybe crucial to the war effort,<BR>
such as what frequencies are used by which trinkets how the computer<BR>
systems work, what anti-virus software they have, what are the SOPs,<BR>
what are the codes, etc. It doesn't have to be a major revolution in<BR>
technology to be important, even slight variations on how technologies<BR>
are used can be very helpful.<BR>
<BR>
In addition to the tech stuff, there are issues like general morale<BR>
among enemy troops, what is the mobilisation level of the enemy, how<BR>
much training they have, what are you told that this war is for, when do<BR>
you think it will end, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Info on fleet movements and other such can also be gathered from the<BR>
lower ranked troops and not necessarily only from the intelligence<BR>
bonanza of ship captains or execs. I think a lot can be deduced from<BR>
questions like, which units you saw in your last R&R on Gram, which<BR>
supply ship brought you your missiles in Jewell system, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Besides not taking prisoners will make the enemy desperate and angry,<BR>
which is not a good thing (which is why in most wars both sides try to<BR>
convince their troops that the other side is taking no prisoners).<BR>
<BR>
As to the bodyguard with instructions to kill the captain. I don't think<BR>
it is such a good idea. First that would mean that you need to have a<BR>
bodyguard tailing the captain all the time, which is not practical.<BR>
Second the captain would try to get rid of the bodyguard the second he<BR>
realises that things could go wrong (and he'll probably realise this<BR>
much sooner than the bodyguard). Third it wouldn't be good for the<BR>
morale nor loyalty of neither the bodyguard nor the captain. The<BR>
bodyguards objectives would become confused, i.e. protect captain vs.<BR>
kill captain under conditions yyy. I think that if the navy wants to<BR>
have dead captains rather than captured captains they would distribute<BR>
cyanide capsules and hope the captain would use them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:20:53 +0100<BR>
From: Jonathan Turner <j.turner@irishnews.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
At 10:10 AM 7/7/00 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
I would assume that extra air tanks are<BR>
>	available, and if there are substantial crew<BR>
>	casualties survivors may be able to scavange a large<BR>
>	number of spare air tanks, allowing them to survive<BR>
>	without any life support for perhaps a week or more.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with vacc suits, combat armour, etc, isn't restricted to just<BR>
air. Surviving for a week also assumes that the suit has enough water and<BR>
food to keep you alive. Certainly at higher tech levels sweat and waste<BR>
will probably be recycled to a certain extent, but the suits are bound to<BR>
be uncomfortable - verrrry uncomfortable. Also, in space there are other<BR>
difficulties... solar flares close to a star which could damage survivors<BR>
with cascade radiation, goodness knows what else. <BR>
<BR>
JT<BR>
Who doesn't really like the idea of drinking his own urine and sweat, even<BR>
if it has been recycled...<BR>
<BR>
sent from the Irish News.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:16:57 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> The ex-intell part of me agrees. However the ex-grunt part says that <BR>
> prisoners and intell data are neat but not dying in the entry is <BR>
> better. IOW intell can have anything that's left after the shooting <BR>
> stops and be happy. If they want more they can go in forst, without <BR>
> pre-nuking the ship and get it themselves :) <BR>
<BR>
"Sir, Colonel Grait has analyzed the scouting reports.  She estimates<BR>
that taking the Battlecruiser _Martiant_ intact and within the time<BR>
available will cost us approximately 800 casualties and cripple <BR>
our carried Marine complement.  She respectfully requests that we <BR>
abandon the planned assault."<BR>
<BR>
"800 men?  We'll lose a million times that number if we can't get<BR>
a line on that fleet's strategic situation!  Tell the Colonel that<BR>
her request is noted, and that she is to proceed."<BR>
<BR>
Grunts have a history of being sent into danger for specific<BR>
objectives, including intelligence data.  Why should the future <BR>
be any different?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:25:20 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
John Groth writes:<BR>
>Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>>Of course, if you want prisoners it might be tricky to<BR>
>>avoid killing the officers with the irradiation option.  :)<BR>
><minor rant><BR>
>As opposed to killing the lowlife enlisted scum who know nothing anyway?<BR>
>One of my pet peeves has always been the assumption, both among<BR>
>civilians in general and in RPG settings in particular, that only<BR>
>officers have knowledge worth knowing.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I was being lazy, but your point is well made.  I presume that<BR>
	enlisted personel will have lots of very useful information,<BR>
	and may have less contra-interogation training.<BR>
<BR>
>Admittedly, I may be biased by serving in an army that gives enlisted<BR>
>personnel responsibilities that other forces may reserve to officers.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This is part of it.  I tend to see the officers in the Imperial<BR>
	Navy, at least, as being somewhat more like those of the imperialist<BR>
	nations of the last century.  Of course, starship crews must be<BR>
	highly educated and trained personel, but I picture officers as<BR>
	tending to keep (or attempt to keep) strategic information from<BR>
	the enlisted types.<BR>
<BR>
>As an interrogator, I would dearly love to get my hands on the enlisted<BR>
>personnel (including petty officers/NCOs) who actually operate the<BR>
>equipment on a warship or other combat system.  After all, they probably<BR>
>know _far_ more about their specialty than the generalist officers who<BR>
>supervise them.<BR>
<BR>
	This is true, and points out that there is more than one kind of<BR>
	intel to be had.  For technical information, the NCOs are likely<BR>
	your best bet.  For strategic stuff, probably officers.  For<BR>
	getting some other information, the able-bodied spacehand may<BR>
	not realize how important certain bits of apparent trivia can<BR>
	be.<BR>
<BR>
>Besides, who actually types up, encrypts, sends out, receives, decrypts,<BR>
>and distributes operations orders, intelligence estimates, and other<BR>
>vital documents of intelligence interest?  The enlisted personnel, of<BR>
>course.  The officers have other responsibilies.<BR>
></minor rant><BR>
<BR>
	Of course, with computer tech the grunts may never see the messages<BR>
	that they are dealing with.  However, I would expect anyone in<BR>
	the communications or intelligence offices to be high priorities<BR>
	for interviews.<BR>
<BR>
>(BTW, I didn't take your post personally, Ian [and I did see your<BR>
>"smiley face]; I merely needed to vent on this topic.)<BR>
<BR>
	No problem.  Thanks for your informed input!<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2735<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, July 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2736<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
Re: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
Re: Jury Duty<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
RE: Jury Duty<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re: Mapping<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, Jul 8 2000 1:41:00 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (actually fast drug)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> Well, the temperature part is easily handled.<BR>
> Since it's main use is to make long trips seem short,<BR>
> you just raise room temp. At a guess, to 95+ F (35+ C).<BR>
<BR>
This will make the subject rot faster unless the commensals<BR>
get drugged up too. Not recommended. Cool the subject to 4 degrees to<BR>
maximally inhibit bacterial growth - that's why fridges are usually set<BR>
to that temperature.<BR>
<BR>
> Even then a major problem is going to be muscle fatigue.<BR>
> Just consider the strain of standing, or of holding an<BR>
> object in your hand.<BR>
<BR>
That's actually an easy one ; below a core temperature of 28 degrees C<BR>
muscles become rigid. It's difficult to differentiate this from rigor<BR>
mortis. Note that they get around this problem by paralysing people with pancuronium before chilling them in cardiac surgery (down to cores of 20 degrees C on cardiopulmonary bypass).<BR>
<BR>
Anyone stupid enough to take the drug without being immersed in a tank<BR>
of fluid or on some sort of low-pressure mattress deserves what<BR>
they most likely will get a posthumous Darwin award once they rot<BR>
from their pressure sores.<BR>
<BR>
> I'll leave the EEG/bacterial problems to you. :-)<BR>
They're somewhat important if we want fast drug users to survive the<BR>
dose. Although, with previous canonical figures about low berth<BR>
mortality rates, life sounds pretty cheap in the OTU anyway.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
'Explore the consequences of your technobabble'.<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, Jul 8 2000 1:47:21 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> Robert, you are beautiful, Man. <BR>
> May I use this info on my website? If you,<BR>
> how would you like to be give credit?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks ; if I'm asked to comment on something on this list<BR>
I will (and if something piques my interest, then I will anyway).<BR>
<BR>
Post it.<BR>
<note to self><BR>
I'll have to drastically renovate my Geocities site at some stage.<BR>
Hmm. I'll have to start desperately praying for free time.<BR>
</note to self><BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
Remorselessly abusing IT resources at work... <BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:45:20 -0500 <BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn posted:<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>On 6 Jul 00, at 13:32, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> You are forced to get up early, drive downtown, pay your<BR>
>> own parking, miss work (and loose pay for doing so) to<BR>
>> wait around to be examined in open court in front of<BR>
>> dozens of people and forced to explain your political<BR>
>> views. When you do so the judge looks at you very strangely<BR>
>> and says you can go. One month later you get a check<BR>
>> for $5.00 US. no matter what you write on the jury duty<BR>
>> form you can not be excused by the court clerks so you have<BR>
>> to go downtown at a very early hour and wait around half the<BR>
>> day to explain this to the judge.<BR>
><BR>
>I think that in this country you're supposed to be paid by your <BR>
>employer for the time you spend on jury service, and the government <BR>
>pays your jury fee to your employer as some sort of compensation, but <BR>
>I'm not sure.<BR>
<BR>
My second stint on a jury was in a Federal court in Ft. Worth,<BR>
TX and became rather interesting. A woman being interviewed for <BR>
the panel was visibly upset (almost crying) and the  attorney for <BR>
prosecution asked her for the reason. She replied that her boss<BR>
had fired her that morning because she took the day off for jury<BR>
duty and he demanded that she stay and work.<BR>
<BR>
The presiding judge (who had appeared to be nodding off) said<BR>
rather loudly "Excuse me? He what?" and she repeated what she <BR>
said.<BR>
<BR>
The judge immediately had her boss hauled out of his workplace, <BR>
in handcuffs, by two armed Federal marshals and brought to the <BR>
courtroom to receive 1) an explanation of the authority of the <BR>
U.S. law over him and 2) proof of such by finding him "in <BR>
contempt of court", fining him, and sentencing him to three days<BR>
in the local lockup, all in front of *his* boss who had driven<BR>
down to the courthouse to do damage control for the company..and<BR>
only the company.<BR>
<BR>
Rule of thumb: Never piss off a U.S. Federal judge in his/her own<BR>
court.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  One of the PCs is summoned as a possible witness of a<BR>
local crime<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:13:06 +0100 <BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn [mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com]<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 7:33 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> on 7/6/00 6:00 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > <BR>
> > One of my pet peeves has always been the assumption, both among<BR>
> > civilians in general and in RPG settings in particular, that only<BR>
> > officers have knowledge worth knowing.  (For example, according to<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> As you state, a view held by civilians.  To use a civilian <BR>
> example, you want<BR>
> to know how to make your software run.  Do you want <BR>
> help/infomation from the<BR>
> CEO or head of marketing, or from the $10/hr tech support grunt?<BR>
<BR>
Well, yes, if you want to know how to field strip an enemy's weapon, or<BR>
find out its strengths and weaknesses, you interrogate an enemy Grunt.<BR>
If you want to know where they intend to attack next, which units are<BR>
mobilising in the rear areas, which units have the weakest morale etc,<BR>
you ask the more senior officers. The more senior the wider their<BR>
strategic knowledge is likely to be, at the expense of tactical<BR>
knowledge (Note: I mean that they are more likely to know the current<BR>
strategic/operational status of their forces, rather than they are<BR>
necessarily strategic planners themselves...)<BR>
<BR>
Similarly, if you want to know how a particular software package works<BR>
you go to a tech support grunt, but if you want to know which markets<BR>
the software company intends to move into, what products the intend to<BR>
develop, which the intend to drop, which other companies they are<BR>
looking at acquiring, who they may be fending off hostile takeover bids<BR>
from etc etc, you go to the management...<BR>
<BR>
Basically, all captives are useful for interrogation, but you need to<BR>
ask the right people to get the information you are after.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:17:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> If you yell for help within 100D of a major world there's a good chance <BR>
> there's something in firing range of whatever's hastling you :) <BR>
> Therefore you won't get hastled.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, variance in what 'major world' means.  I should say 'world that isn't<BR>
a spec on the map'.  Basically, worlds which are pop-7+, TL 9+, and port A-C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:18:20 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> As to the bodyguard with instructions to kill the captain. I don't think<BR>
> it is such a good idea. First that would mean that you need to have a<BR>
> bodyguard tailing the captain all the time, which is not practical.<BR>
> Second the captain would try to get rid of the bodyguard the second he<BR>
> realises that things could go wrong (and he'll probably realise this<BR>
> much sooner than the bodyguard). Third it wouldn't be good for the<BR>
> morale nor loyalty of neither the bodyguard nor the captain. The<BR>
> bodyguards objectives would become confused, i.e. protect captain vs.<BR>
> kill captain under conditions yyy. I think that if the navy wants to<BR>
> have dead captains rather than captured captains they would distribute<BR>
> cyanide capsules and hope the captain would use them.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Good point.  And who determines when it's time to kill the captain.  If the<BR>
bodyguard is privy to all the information necessary to make this decision,<BR>
and is always around the captain, then the bodyguard himself becomes a<BR>
valuable captive.  IMTU, we have a drug called MemWipe, which destroys short<BR>
term memory (which is believed to be stored differently than long term<BR>
memories--perhaps Robert can speak to this).  MemWipe blanks the last 72<BR>
hours (2Dx10 hours), and although rare and expensive, has it's uses.  A<BR>
captain is more inclined to use a non-lethal drug that reduces the<BR>
information he can give the enemy, as opposed to something more permanent.<BR>
Naturally, older information is still obtainable.  MemWipe is primarily used<BR>
by intel operatives.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, It is certainly possible that Solomani SolSec officers<BR>
assigned to military/naval units might perform the duty of dispatching a<BR>
captain in danger of capture.  There is probably no love lost between<BR>
political officer and captain any way, so morale will not be a factor.<BR>
However, were I captain and was concerned about getting 'offed' by the PO, I<BR>
might arrange for him to 'slip on some tea', rather than take a bullet in<BR>
the back of the head when thing started to go badly.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that the opposing parties play nice (observe the rules of war),<BR>
then training against interrogation techniques for vital crew beings is<BR>
probably adequate.  The training given to US pilots based on the Vietnam war<BR>
experience is probably a good starting point. Having a working knowledge of<BR>
interrogation techniques goes a long way to limiting their effectiveness.<BR>
"Oh, the old good interrogator/bad interrogator routine.  Still using that<BR>
Hmm.  My name rank and serial number are..."<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:23:03 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
> The problem with vacc suits, combat armour, etc, isn't restricted to just<BR>
> air. Surviving for a week also assumes that the suit has enough water and<BR>
> food to keep you alive. Certainly at higher tech levels sweat and waste<BR>
> will probably be recycled to a certain extent, but the suits are bound to<BR>
> be uncomfortable - verrrry uncomfortable. Also, in space there are other<BR>
> difficulties... solar flares close to a star which could damage survivors<BR>
> with cascade radiation, goodness knows what else.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is a<BR>
fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing to do with<BR>
availability of supplies.  After a while, some people will just go<BR>
'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  A safe area where crew can rest, tend<BR>
to bodily functions, and just not smell there own sweat for even a brief<BR>
time would be invaluable.  Without such a facility, the crew being will wear<BR>
out long before his suit does.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:24:22 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Jonathan Turner writes:<BR>
>>I would assume that extra air tanks are<BR>
>>available, and if there are substantial crew<BR>
>>casualties survivors may be able to scavange a large<BR>
>>number of spare air tanks, allowing them to survive<BR>
>>without any life support for perhaps a week or more.<BR>
>The problem with vacc suits, combat armour, etc, isn't restricted to just<BR>
>air. Surviving for a week also assumes that the suit has enough water and<BR>
>food to keep you alive. Certainly at higher tech levels sweat and waste<BR>
>will probably be recycled to a certain extent, but the suits are bound to<BR>
>be uncomfortable - verrrry uncomfortable.<BR>
<BR>
	For sure, but air sets an upper limit.  I also pointed out that having<BR>
	some areas pressurized would help morale.  Such areas would also<BR>
	facilitate vacc suit maintenance, toilet breaks, meals, etc.<BR>
	Nevertheless, I consider that CO2 scrubbers, air tanks, potable<BR>
	liquids, etc. could be incorporated into vacc suit systems in vacuum.<BR>
	I generally assume that some sort of waste management system is<BR>
	incorporated into vacc suits and battle dress, and that such systems<BR>
	can be voided.  If not, well, the PBI have been asked to put up with<BR>
	worse.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, in space there are other<BR>
>difficulties... solar flares close to a star which could damage survivors<BR>
>with cascade radiation, goodness knows what else. <BR>
<BR>
	If the starship protects the crew while it is mobile, then it must<BR>
	do almost as good a job when disabled.<BR>
<BR>
>Who doesn't really like the idea of drinking his own urine and sweat, even<BR>
>if it has been recycled...<BR>
<BR>
	On the other hand, the water on board the starship is everyone else's<BR>
	recycled urine and sweat...<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:29:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Some thoughts on Stygian Bliss<BR>
<BR>
> Thanks ; if I'm asked to comment on something on this list<BR>
> I will (and if something piques my interest, then I will anyway).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ok, since your mentioned it.  I have some medical rules posted on my website<BR>
(http://www.travellercentral.com in the 'House Rules' section.  Now, I am<BR>
know medico, so you'll probably find lots to take issue with, but I'd love<BR>
to get your input, and any suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:39:38 +0100<BR>
From: Jonathan Turner <j.turner@irishnews.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
At 09:23 AM 7/7/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
After a while, some people will just go<BR>
>'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  <BR>
<BR>
My point exactly. Put far more eloquently, into the bargain!<BR>
<BR>
JT<BR>
<BR>
sent from the Irish News.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:41:59 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Good point.  And who determines when it's time to kill the captain.  If the<BR>
> bodyguard is privy to all the information necessary to make this decision,<BR>
> and is always around the captain, then the bodyguard himself becomes a<BR>
> valuable captive.  IMTU, we have a drug called MemWipe, which destroys short<BR>
> term memory (which is believed to be stored differently than long term<BR>
> memories--perhaps Robert can speak to this).  MemWipe blanks the last 72<BR>
> hours (2Dx10 hours), and although rare and expensive, has it's uses.  A<BR>
> captain is more inclined to use a non-lethal drug that reduces the<BR>
> information he can give the enemy, as opposed to something more permanent.<BR>
> Naturally, older information is still obtainable.  MemWipe is primarily used<BR>
> by intel operatives.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if the enemy really wants the information and believes it's<BR>
possible that the prisoner is lying about having wiped it, they're going<BR>
to make him wish he'd taken the cyanide pill.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:42:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
> prosecution asked her for the reason. She replied that her boss<BR>
> had fired her that morning because she took the day off for jury<BR>
> duty and he demanded that she stay and work.<BR>
><BR>
> The presiding judge (who had appeared to be nodding off) said<BR>
> rather loudly "Excuse me? He what?" and she repeated what she<BR>
> said.<BR>
><BR>
> The judge immediately had her boss hauled out of his workplace,<BR>
> in handcuffs, by two armed Federal marshals and brought to the<BR>
> courtroom to receive 1) an explanation of the authority of the<BR>
> U.S. law over him and 2) proof of such by finding him "in<BR>
> contempt of court", fining him, and sentencing him to three days<BR>
> in the local lockup, all in front of *his* boss who had driven<BR>
> down to the courthouse to do damage control for the company..and<BR>
> only the company.<BR>
><BR>
> Rule of thumb: Never piss off a U.S. Federal judge in his/her own<BR>
> court.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
To which I can only add, never.  Federal judges are incredibly powerful,<BR>
they are appointed for life and can only be impeached by the US senate (a<BR>
very rare occurrence, IIRC more presidents have been impeached than Federal<BR>
judges.  Al Hasting was impeached because senators didn't like the idea of a<BR>
judge sitting in federal prison still drawing his salary).<BR>
<BR>
I'm surprised the boss only got 3 days in the can.  The judge must have been<BR>
having a good dream and been in a kindly mood.  BTW, just to pick nits, the<BR>
boss was probably grabbed up by a couple of deputy US marshals.  US Marshals<BR>
are political appointee, and have little to do with actual enforcement.  And<BR>
it is the US Marshals service's mandate to act as agents of the federal<BR>
courts that is one of the reasons this agency has such a wide jurisdictions.<BR>
Federal judges can find a way to get into just about any legal matter if<BR>
they have a mind to do so.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "once the spouse of a deputy US marshal" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:48:24 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is a<BR>
> fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing to do with<BR>
> availability of supplies.  After a while, some people will just go<BR>
> 'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  A safe area where crew can rest, tend<BR>
> to bodily functions, and just not smell there own sweat for even a brief<BR>
> time would be invaluable.  Without such a facility, the crew being will wear<BR>
> out long before his suit does.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, as the commander of the victorious fleet, I would park a<BR>
destroyer a few kilometers away from the crippled ship, take careful aim,<BR>
and drill a hole in that safe area.  A few of the enemy will die, of<BR>
course, but those who don't will be that much more eager to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
And if they still hold out, I'll plug all the holes in the hull and fill<BR>
the ship with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and knockout gas.  Anyone who<BR>
can't take it any more and rips his helmet off will be rewarded with a<BR>
breath of fresh air and a refreshing nap.  My marines can then collect him<BR>
at their leisure.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:49:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Ok, I am fiddling with my update to my site and would like to see if anyone<BR>
can help with my understanding of GT's climate rules in relationship to<BR>
their icosahedronic projection.<BR>
<BR>
>From the SJG site I snagged a /supposed/ GT projection. After looking it<BR>
over and comparing it to what I have read in GT: First In, I think either<BR>
the map is wrong*, First In is wrong**, GURPS Space is wrong***, or I am<BR>
seriously missing something****. By what I read in First In, counting from<BR>
the equator there are supposed to be 13 (D) rows of hexes. On this map there<BR>
are 14. Other than this, the climate rules seem very elegant, and I may<BR>
decide to adopt/adapt them to another style of projection<BR>
<BR>
Also someone mentioned that my hexadecimal based projection could not use<BR>
the climate rules standard to other styles, and it has just dawned on me<BR>
that this implies there are such rules for the "Old School" style. Are these<BR>
in the hard-to-get WTH and/or WBH?<BR>
<BR>
I have a beta version of my mapping page uploaded, and it has links to the<BR>
pertinent images for those with limited browsing capabilities like Leonard.<BR>
It is at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
I have posted on this earlier(7-2-00), but got no response. Does that<BR>
indicate a lack of interest, oversite, lack of comprehension, or what? It<BR>
can't be because I have been universally kill-filed, as digest folks can't<BR>
do that AFAIK. Perhaps this is something I should post to A Gamer's Life<BR>
instead, as it concerns many RPGs. I've had a Risk type game in my head for<BR>
a while using an icosahedronic projection inspired by the pieces in the new<BR>
set I got. Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery that they use for ones, fives,<BR>
and tens respectively.<BR>
<BR>
* SJG should then either fix that map, note the error, or just remove the<BR>
map. I would prefer posting a fixed one.<BR>
<BR>
** This would need to go in the errata file.<BR>
<BR>
*** I don't have it so I can not postulate on this, but if so, it's for the<BR>
errata file.<BR>
<BR>
**** Well, then tell me /where/ I am screwing up!<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
BZA's Traveller--> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's E-Mail--> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:53:37 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
At 10:42 AM 07/07/2000 +0300, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Short of nanotech, or surgical modification, I don't really see a<BR>
> > solution.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
>So the ships toilets would need to have autonomous life support systems<BR>
>and power to allow the ships crew to fight against the boarders for that<BR>
>extra week.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm...<BR>
<BR>
Forget about fighting for the bridge, CIC, or engineering, fight to the <BR>
last man to hold the heads!<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:55:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
> Well, yes, if you want to know how to field strip an enemy's weapon, or<BR>
> find out its strengths and weaknesses, you interrogate an enemy Grunt.<BR>
> If you want to know where they intend to attack next, which units are<BR>
> mobilising in the rear areas, which units have the weakest morale etc,<BR>
> you ask the more senior officers. The more senior the wider their<BR>
> strategic knowledge is likely to be, at the expense of tactical<BR>
> knowledge (Note: I mean that they are more likely to know the current<BR>
> strategic/operational status of their forces, rather than they are<BR>
> necessarily strategic planners themselves...)<BR>
<BR>
Agreed, although senior officers are often blissfully unaware of the state<BR>
of morale of their men, particularly in armies that have significant class<BR>
distinction.  And if you PsyOps people are planning a campaign against the<BR>
enemy, you want to know what the troops are thinking.  Officers tend to be<BR>
less likely to surrender/defect.<BR>
><BR>
> Similarly, if you want to know how a particular software package works<BR>
> you go to a tech support grunt, but if you want to know which markets<BR>
> the software company intends to move into, what products the intend to<BR>
> develop, which the intend to drop, which other companies they are<BR>
> looking at acquiring, who they may be fending off hostile takeover bids<BR>
> from etc etc, you go to the management...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
If your intel folks are good, and you gather enough information, you can<BR>
often put together a pretty good picture of the enemies strategy without<BR>
getting your hands on the 'big cheese'.  Still, if you can get a upper<BR>
echelon commander and crack them, it's a nice present.<BR>
<BR>
The other issue though is that if you capture a high ranking officer, the<BR>
enemy will know or assume you have the information that officer had and<BR>
possibly change plans, codes, etc.  Intel gleaned from the careful collation<BR>
of the interviews of  dozens of low and mid level personnel, on the other<BR>
hand...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:04:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
> > information he can give the enemy, as opposed to something more<BR>
> permanent.<BR>
> > Naturally, older information is still obtainable.  MemWipe is<BR>
> primarily used<BR>
> > by intel operatives.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, if the enemy really wants the information and believes it's<BR>
> possible that the prisoner is lying about having wiped it, they're going<BR>
> to make him wish he'd taken the cyanide pill.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Naturally, but he violates the rules of war (if there are any) and can now<BR>
expect his officers falling into enemy hands to get the same treatment.<BR>
Perhaps a simple blood test will reveal the presence of MemWipe (I hadn't<BR>
thought of this).  There's certain nothing to gain, and lots to lose if you<BR>
torture someone for information they don't have.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 8:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
> > come by. <BR>
> > <BR>
> > Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
> > *that* take. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Cheryl answered this one.  I think you also need to fill out an ATF form 6<BR>
> and 6A.  Cheryl?<BR>
<BR>
Tod, there are no forms 6/6A.  To import (in theory) a RFAS (Russian<BR>
Federation and/or Allied States) nuke, you'd need to have the following<BR>
completed BATF forms:<BR>
<BR>
ATF F 5300.42		CERTIFICATION OF SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICES<BR>
ATF F 5320.2		Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported<BR>
ATF F 5320.20		Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily<BR>
			Export Certain National Firearms Act Firearms<BR>
ATF F 5330.3A		Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms,<BR>
			Ammunition and Implements of War<BR>
ATF F 5330.3B		Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms,<BR>
			Ammunition and Implements of War<BR>
ATF F 5330.4 (4587)	Application to Register as an Importer of<BR>
			U.S. Munitions Import List Articles<BR>
ATF F 5400.13		Application for License or Permit under<BR>
			18 U.S.C. Chapter 40, Explosives<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, you'll need an import license from the Office of Nuclear<BR>
Material Safety and Safeguards (Nuclear Regulatory Commission), and<BR>
you'll need to secure permission from the U.S. State Dept. for all of<BR>
the above.<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, both the "U.S. - IAEA Safeguards Agreement" and the<BR>
"Nuclear Non-proliferation Act of 1978" prohibit exactly the kind<BR>
of tranfer you discuss. :^(<BR>
<BR>
Tod, on a *TOTALLY* different subject: remember that "Hotchkiss<BR>
Universal SMG" I identified for you last week?  Well, believe it<BR>
or not, I not only got to handle one on the 4th of July, I GOT TO<BR>
FIRE IT!!<BR>
<BR>
I'm in heaven, dude! :^)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
          64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.<BR>
                  Somehow, it didn't make the news.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:20:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Naturally, but he violates the rules of war (if there are any) and can now<BR>
> expect his officers falling into enemy hands to get the same treatment.<BR>
> Perhaps a simple blood test will reveal the presence of MemWipe (I hadn't<BR>
> thought of this).  There's certain nothing to gain, and lots to lose if you<BR>
> torture someone for information they don't have.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain to create<BR>
MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable interrogation drugs.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:27:17 -0400 <BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain to <BR>
> create MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable <BR>
> interrogation drugs. <BR>
<BR>
Making the use of MemWipe (or ...*shudder*... FullWipe!) even more<BR>
necessary by your senior officers upon capture.  <BR>
<BR>
Consider that this level of brain biochemistry knowledge might even<BR>
allow a dead person's brain to be read for memories, including long<BR>
term ones.  A senior officer, upon imminent capture, might very<BR>
well turn himself into a memoryless vegetable rather than betray<BR>
his long list of state secrets to the enemy.<BR>
<BR>
I imagine, in a fleet with this policy, that NCO's and Ratings are<BR>
quite thankful that they are kept in the dark about such things.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:50:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Tod, there are no forms 6/6A.  To import (in theory) a RFAS (Russian<BR>
> Federation and/or Allied States) nuke, you'd need to have the following<BR>
> completed BATF forms:<BR>
<BR>
Times change.  When I imported my Bergman-Bayard from Canada (5 or 6 years<BR>
ago), I had to do a form 6 and 6A (maybe it was form 5--I'll look at the<BR>
paperwork).<BR>
<BR>
[snip - lots of good stuff]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Tod, on a *TOTALLY* different subject: remember that "Hotchkiss<BR>
> Universal SMG" I identified for you last week?  Well, believe it<BR>
> or not, I not only got to handle one on the 4th of July, I GOT TO<BR>
> FIRE IT!!<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Someone actually owns one of these? Very interesting.  I recently visited a<BR>
friend who's a member at you club.  It's interesting, the kinds of things in<BR>
civilian hands.  Many 3rd world countries would like to have this man's gun<BR>
safes.  Kind of like some of our traveller characters.  Does anyone need 6<BR>
MAC-10s.  And I envy anyone who can afford to buy and shoot not one, but 2<BR>
M2s. Gotta go buy that lottery ticket.<BR>
<BR>
One of these days we must stage a trav shoot.  Get some of the local TMLers<BR>
on the range and let them fire some cool stuff.  I'm sure I could get my<BR>
buddy Bob to bring down some of his class 3 stuff, and I have some plain<BR>
old, but cool goodies my self.  I'm currently waiting for my Accuracy<BR>
International AICS to arrive (my second), and will definitely have to try it<BR>
out.  What's the longest range at Albany?  I'd like to do some 500+ meter<BR>
shooting?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I am always on the hunt for interesting or unusual guns for my trav<BR>
weapons website. (weak attempt at ObTrav).  The Hotchkiss strikes me as a<BR>
very 'trav' weapons.  Something that folds up nicely to fit in the ship's<BR>
locker.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2736<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Friday, July 7 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2737<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
Unsubbing for a while...<BR>
Re : Interrogation (was : Useful Prisoners)<BR>
Re : Mapping<BR>
RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
New Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork Available<BR>
Re: Jury Duty<BR>
Re: New Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork Available<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at  close range<BR>
Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
RE: D20<BR>
Re: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:00:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Most junior ratings on large ships seldom are aware of strategic or tactical<BR>
information.  However, there are several "key" ratings are quite<BR>
knowledgeable.<BR>
Examples include:<BR>
<BR>
- -Quartermasters (they assist in navigating the ship, fix the ship's position<BR>
and provide piloting recommendations)<BR>
- -Information Technology  (the ex-Radioman rate...Walker was one of these<BR>
guys)<BR>
- -Operations Specialists (they plot fleet unit positions, manage & digest<BR>
message traffic and monitor sensors)<BR>
- -Electronic Warfare (they monitor sensors and analyze enemy units and<BR>
capabilities)<BR>
- -Weapons ratings (they who stand watches in CIC, operate weapons consoles<BR>
and sensors and are exposed to a lot of critical info).<BR>
<BR>
It is typical to conduct pre-evolution briefs for any significant or<BR>
upcoming events prior to assuming the watch or beginning any sort of<BR>
exercise or operation.  All watchstanders are included in these (a major<BR>
reason is to prevent shooting friendly/allied).  A sample of "important<BR>
things to know"<BR>
<BR>
- -When/where the other task force is going to show up so the CIC watch<BR>
officer can alert the OOD, wake the CO up, and...not shoot at them.<BR>
- -Where the enemy threat sector is and what sort of threats are anticipated.<BR>
- -Rules of Engagement.<BR>
- -Potential friendly or unaligned ("white") shipping in the area.<BR>
<BR>
On present day US warships, enlisted personnel perform comparatively high<BR>
leevl functions and it is not uncommon to have enlisted Officers of the Deck<BR>
(1nd class through CPO).<BR>
<BR>
There is always an CIC Watch Supervisor (normally a CPO).<BR>
<BR>
Since the EWS and the Op Specialists prepare almsot all of the Tactical and<BR>
Strategic briefing books, and sees almost all but the most sensitive<BR>
traffic, these guys know a lot.<BR>
<BR>
Additonally, all of the tactical computer databases, large screen displays,<BR>
etc... are maintained by enlisted personnel.  Officer generally know how to<BR>
use them, but the enlisted folks know how to make them dance.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, this is the US Navy that I'm speaking of and other nations<BR>
differ.  Some navies place even more trust in their senior enlisted.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John Groth" <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 9:00 PM<BR>
Subject: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> <<snips discussion of low-power meson guns as "death rays">><BR>
><BR>
> >         Of course, if you want prisoners it might be tricky to<BR>
> >         avoid killing the officers with the irradiation option.  :)<BR>
><BR>
> <minor rant><BR>
><BR>
> As opposed to killing the lowlife enlisted scum who know nothing anyway?<BR>
><BR>
> One of my pet peeves has always been the assumption, both among<BR>
> civilians in general and in RPG settings in particular, that only<BR>
> officers have knowledge worth knowing.  (For example, according to<BR>
> Twilight: 2000 [2d edition], as an interrogation NCO, I can't exist.  At<BR>
> least, I can not be generated using the rules for character<BR>
> generation.)  I suspect that this tendency is rooted in the predilection<BR>
> of civilians to automatically equate themselves with officers,<BR>
> regardless of their own social status (Heinlein mentions this in _Job: A<BR>
> Comedy of Justice_, and my observations over 16 years of service have<BR>
> not yet contradicted his point).<BR>
><BR>
> Admittedly, I may be biased by serving in an army that gives enlisted<BR>
> personnel responsibilities that other forces may reserve to officers.  I<BR>
> still recall how surprised the Israeli officers with whom I dealt as an<BR>
> Arabic interpreter with the MFO were to learn that I had no desire to<BR>
> seek a commission.<BR>
><BR>
> As an interrogator, I would dearly love to get my hands on the enlisted<BR>
> personnel (including petty officers/NCOs) who actually operate the<BR>
> equipment on a warship or other combat system.  After all, they probably<BR>
> know _far_ more about their specialty than the generalist officers who<BR>
> supervise them.<BR>
><BR>
> Besides, who actually types up, encrypts, sends out, receives, decrypts,<BR>
> and distributes operations orders, intelligence estimates, and other<BR>
> vital documents of intelligence interest?  The enlisted personnel, of<BR>
> course.  The officers have other responsibilies.<BR>
><BR>
> </minor rant><BR>
><BR>
> (BTW, I didn't take your post personally, Ian [and I did see your<BR>
> "smiley face]; I merely needed to vent on this topic.)<BR>
><BR>
> file://signature//<BR>
><BR>
> JOHN E. GROTH<BR>
> SFC, LAARNG<BR>
> Platoon Sergeant<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:03:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> > Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain to<BR>
> > create MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable<BR>
> > interrogation drugs.<BR>
><BR>
> Making the use of MemWipe (or ...*shudder*... FullWipe!) even more<BR>
> necessary by your senior officers upon capture.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Which brings up the thought of a character who's was formerly some well<BR>
regarded military leader who's used FullWipe when threatened by imminent<BR>
capture.  Now returned to his/her homeland, our hero is greeted as such<BR>
wherever they go.  Having been reeducated (no bad connotation--they just<BR>
have to relearn everything) they have no memory of this 'other person'.  But<BR>
perhaps, the brain being what it is, every now and then and odd memory or<BR>
two surfaces.<BR>
<BR>
I recall starting a player this way.<BR>
<BR>
You come to consciousness in a star port lavatory.  You are handcuffed to a<BR>
dead soph, apparently some sort of law enforcement official from the badge<BR>
and ID.  Their gun is in your hand and they have been shot in the head at<BR>
short range.  Problem:  You don't know where you are, why you are where you<BR>
are, who you are, and what you doing or supposed to be doing.  In the<BR>
distance you hear sirens...<BR>
<BR>
> Consider that this level of brain biochemistry knowledge might even<BR>
> allow a dead person's brain to be read for memories, including long<BR>
> term ones.  A senior officer, upon imminent capture, might very<BR>
> well turn himself into a memoryless vegetable rather than betray<BR>
> his long list of state secrets to the enemy.<BR>
<BR>
A tragic 'mind casualty' of the war.  To be honored and rehabilitated (but<BR>
not envied).<BR>
><BR>
> I imagine, in a fleet with this policy, that NCO's and Ratings are<BR>
> quite thankful that they are kept in the dark about such things.<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:28:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Which brings up the thought of a character who's was formerly some well<BR>
> regarded military leader who's used FullWipe when threatened by imminent<BR>
> capture.  Now returned to his/her homeland, our hero is greeted as such<BR>
> wherever they go.  Having been reeducated (no bad connotation--they just<BR>
> have to relearn everything) they have no memory of this 'other person'.  But<BR>
> perhaps, the brain being what it is, every now and then and odd memory or<BR>
> two surfaces.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the adventures of "Hayt" (formerly Duncan Idaho) in Frank<BR>
Herbert's "Dune Messiah" might be inspirational here, particularly if the<BR>
drug in question only *suppresses* memories, rather than absolutely<BR>
*destroying* them.<BR>
                                                          - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:58:15 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler writes:<BR>
>Of course, as the commander of the victorious fleet, I would park a<BR>
>destroyer a few kilometers away from the crippled ship, take careful aim,<BR>
>and drill a hole in that safe area.  A few of the enemy will die, of<BR>
>course, but those who don't will be that much more eager to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
	This assumes that you know that such a safe area exists, where it<BR>
	is, that you can drill to it without too much 'colateral' damage,<BR>
	and that the enemy cannot redeploy.  I'm not saying that it can't<BR>
	work, but boarding may be a more effective option (even if only<BR>
	to locate targets for the destroyer).<BR>
<BR>
>And if they still hold out, I'll plug all the holes in the hull and fill<BR>
>the ship with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and knockout gas.  Anyone who<BR>
>can't take it any more and rips his helmet off will be rewarded with a<BR>
>breath of fresh air and a refreshing nap.  My marines can then collect him<BR>
>at their leisure.<BR>
<BR>
	Now that is an interesting approach.  I'll have to think about it,<BR>
	but it sounds like a lot of trouble.  I would expect that boarding<BR>
	parties would be sent on to a disabled ship at the first opportunity.<BR>
	They would have orders to assess the situation, and if practical<BR>
	prevent ship reactivation/obtain intel/capture enemy/take control.<BR>
	This might involve some shooting, but the boarding parties are<BR>
	probably told to avoid serious resistance.<BR>
<BR>
	Further opperations would depend on this assessment, the tactical<BR>
	situation nearby, and whether they have lots of time to wait out<BR>
	die-hards or must act quickly.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:05:56 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The other issue though is that if you capture a high ranking officer, the<BR>
>enemy will know or assume you have the information that officer had and<BR>
>possibly change plans, codes, etc.  Intel gleaned from the careful collation<BR>
>of the interviews of  dozens of low and mid level personnel, on the other<BR>
>hand...<BR>
<BR>
	If you have captured a disabled ship, the enemy may be unsure of who<BR>
	has survived and who has not.  Depending on the circumstances, the<BR>
	enemy may be unaware for a while that anyone has been captured.<BR>
	Even then, depending on how interrogation is IYTU, it may be<BR>
	difficult to say just how much has been gleened from a given<BR>
	prisoner.  I would think that the enemy, once it learned about the<BR>
	loss of the ship, would have to assume that any codes or plans on<BR>
	that ship are compromised.  Changing plans takes time, and almost<BR>
	any breech of security can eventually be rendered harmless, but<BR>
	that doesn't mean that interogating senior officers is useless.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:40:58 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Unsubbing for a while...<BR>
<BR>
Annual training calls, so I'm unsubbing from the list for two weeks. <BR>
C'est la guerre....<BR>
<BR>
BTW, Leonard, I wasn't able to finish my submission for your design<BR>
contest.  Sorry!<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, Jul 8 2000 6:44:07 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Interrogation (was : Useful Prisoners)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> IMTU, we have a drug called MemWipe, which destroys short<BR>
> term memory (which is believed to be stored differently<BR>
> than long term memories--perhaps Robert can speak to this).<BR>
Memory is stored throughout the brain, but the centre responsible<BR>
for establishing short-term memory is quite discrete (the hippocampi,<BR>
as mentioned in a recent post). So you're not going to disturb as<BR>
much by tweaking the hippocampi. E.g. ethanol, Stygian Bliss<g>.<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>
> Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain<BR>
> to create MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable<BR>
> interrogation drugs.<BR>
<BR>
Historically, the drugs used have been sedatives or hypnotics.<BR>
Barbiturate abreaction was used after WW2 in the treatment of post<BR>
traumatic stress disorder. While intoxicated, the stream of<BR>
consciousness tended to flow more quickly. Inhibitions about talking<BR>
about unpleasant experiences were removed.<BR>
<BR>
Enhanced suggestibility, as well as disinhibition, can also be seen<BR>
on emergence from any form of general anaesthesia.<BR>
<BR>
The best combination would be hypnotics and virtual reality. You would<BR>
confide in a friend or loved one (or debrief to a senior officer),<BR>
yes?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote :-<BR>
> Consider that this level of brain biochemistry knowledge<BR>
> might even allow a dead person's brain to be read for memories,<BR>
> including long term ones.<BR>
<BR>
It's not all that far away ; remember the recent work with 'interrogating'<BR>
the visual centres of cats that made the news last year.<BR>
<BR>
The best defense against such memory reading is erasure or destruction<BR>
of the relevant brain. Ten minutes of cerebral anoxia will certainly<BR>
put the information beyond the reach of anyone, as the cells will be<BR>
so much mush.<BR>
<BR>
Neckties and belts are just as useful in this form of 'information denial'<BR>
as bombs, bullets and knives.<BR>
<BR>
Non-traumatic amnesia appears only to be possible with anaesthetic<BR>
or near anaesthetic doses of various sedatives, e.g. ethanol, <BR>
benzodiazepines, various injectable and inhaled agents.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm... maybe a highly selective GABA agonist would do the trick.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, Jul 8 2000 6:46:13 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Mapping<BR>
<BR>
BZA wrote :-<BR>
> By what I read in First In, counting from the equator there are<BR>
> supposed to be 13 (D) rows of hexes. On this map there are 14.<BR>
> Other than this, the climate rules seem very elegant, and I may<BR>
> decide to adopt/adapt them to another style of projection<BR>
<BR>
Is the equator hexrow 0 in First In?<BR>
(My memories of G:Space and FI are dim - I'll have to reread them sometime).<BR>
<BR>
> Are these in the hard-to-get WTH and/or WBH?<BR>
Yes, they're found in both (well, as similar as they could be given<BR>
the GDW/DGP rift).<BR>
<BR>
> Does that indicate a lack of interest, oversite,<BR>
> lack of comprehension, or what? It can't be because I have been<BR>
> universally kill-filed, as digest folks can't do that AFAIK.<BR>
You're right about kill-filing and digest recipients.<BR>
I'd think the problem would be apathy.<BR>
I've had a few plonked posts on this list, myself.<BR>
Perhaps there weren't enough female Aslans in comfortable shoes flying<BR>
near-c thruster propelled rocks for pirates from the RoM in them.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:50:48 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
>Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate if<BR>
>it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?  IMTU, I allow<BR>
>someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive (disable safety<BR>
>systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the need of any additional<BR>
>self-destruct device.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks, Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
VERY old White Dwarf article covered this...I'll look it up if you are<BR>
interested?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:50:54 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
>Bear in mind that, if fusion drives could _possibly_ be rigged to blow<BR>
>up as a fusion bomb, then fusion-powered starships would be _very_ rare<BR>
>in civilian hands.  <BR>
<BR>
>What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
>possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
>section.  <BR>
<BR>
The same argument could be made for the drivers of petrol tankers or<BR>
chemical tanker today...they arn't banned from existing.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:02:35 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Bankhead wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Bear in mind that, if fusion drives could _possibly_ be rigged to blow<BR>
> >up as a fusion bomb, then fusion-powered starships would be _very_ rare<BR>
> >in civilian hands.<BR>
> <BR>
> >What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
> >possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
> >section.<BR>
> <BR>
> The same argument could be made for the drivers of petrol tankers or<BR>
> chemical tanker today...they arn't banned from existing.<BR>
<BR>
True, but gasoline tankers are not classified as weapons of mass<BR>
destruction.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:20:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: New Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork Available<BR>
<BR>
I just posted 7 new Traveller/Sci-Fi related sketches for you to use in your campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Trade/Gallery/sbryant.html<BR>
<BR>
These images are free for NON-Commercial use, all we ask is you acknowledge QuikLink Interactive, Inc. as the copyright holder on the images.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:20:15 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Jury Duty<BR>
<BR>
On 07/07/00 at 09:11 PM,  "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I think that in this country you're supposed to be paid by your  employer<BR>
>for the time you spend on jury service, and the government  pays your<BR>
>jury fee to your employer as some sort of compensation, but  I'm not<BR>
>sure.<BR>
<BR>
My experience was that my employeer received the jury fee and I was on paid leave. I don't think is even close to universal though. We have 50 different states here in the US, so there are probably 50 different ways of doing things. Actually, we probably have many more than 50 different ways. <g> <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:51:05 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: New Steve Bryant Traveller Artwork Available<BR>
<BR>
Gordan<BR>
<BR>
These pictures are cool thanks for the work<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I just posted 7 new Traveller/Sci-Fi related sketches for you to use in your campaigns.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.RPGRealms.com/Trade/Gallery/sbryant.html<BR>
> <BR>
> These images are free for NON-Commercial use, all we ask is you acknowledge QuikLink Interactive, Inc. as the copyright holder on the images.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hunter<BR>
> GRIP Online Role-playing System<BR>
> http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
> <BR>
> GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
> http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:52:16 -0500<BR>
From: richardp <richardp@mac.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:07:41 +1000<BR>
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
><BR>
>Basically, people like the Athenians and Carthaginians used ram tactics: <BR>
>people like the Spartans and Romans used boarding tactics.  Guess who won<BR>
>the Peloponesian and Punic Wars?<BR>
<BR>
</lurk><BR>
<BR>
     FWIW, I don't remember any mention of boarding tactics in Thucydides <BR>
or any other source on the Peloponnesian War, and the Romans seem to have <BR>
only used them for the First Punic War -- after they'd gotten the chance <BR>
to build a decent-sized navy and train the crews properly, they used the <BR>
same ramming tactics as everyone else around them.<BR>
<BR>
<lurk><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:53:59 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
<BR>
In an attempt to localize the source of my difficulties with the starship<BR>
weapon design rules in the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel," I<BR>
tried to recreate one of the lasers from the "Standard Ship Design<BR>
System."  Here are the characteristics of the laser in question:<BR>
<BR>
Tech Level = 12<BR>
Discharge Energy (DE) = 95 megajoules<BR>
Actual Range (RangeA) = 1 light second, or 300,000 kilometers, or <BR>
                        300,000,000 meters<BR>
Damage = 24<BR>
<BR>
Note that the "Standard Ship Design System" provided the laser's range in<BR>
tenths of a light second.  Since I wanted to calculate the diameter of the<BR>
laser's focal array, and hoped to get an answer in meters, I started by<BR>
converting the range from light seconds into meters.  <BR>
<BR>
3.6 x Intensity^0.5 = Damage<BR>
3.6 x Intensity^0.5 = 24<BR>
Intensity^0.5 = 6.667<BR>
Intensity = 44.444<BR>
<BR>
RangeE = Effective Range<BR>
<BR>
Intensity = DE / ( RangeA / RangeE )^2<BR>
44.444 = 95 / ( 300,000,000 / RangeE )^2<BR>
44.444 x ( 300,000,000 / RangeE )^2 = 95<BR>
( 300,000,000 / RangeE )^2 = 2.138<BR>
300,000,000 / RangeE = 1.462<BR>
RangeE x 1.462 = 300,000,000<BR>
RangeE = 205,198,358 meters<BR>
<BR>
F x RangeMod = RangeE<BR>
RangeMod = 100<BR>
F = 250 x Diameter^2<BR>
( 250 x Diameter^2 ) x 100 = 205,198,358<BR>
250 x Diameter^2 = 2,051,983.58<BR>
Diameter^2 = 8,207.934<BR>
Diameter = 90.598 meters<BR>
<BR>
Clearly, I made a *serious* mistake, somewhere.  It is simply impossible<BR>
to believe that a laser intended to fit in small (42 cubic meter) turret<BR>
has a focal array whose diameter is over ninety meters!<BR>
<BR>
This brings me, by the way, to my second question: just what *is* a "focal<BR>
array?"  I don't know very much about laser anatomy, but I vaguely recall<BR>
that an ordinary 20th century laser consists of a power supply and a<BR>
cylinder of "lasing material," capped with a fully reflective mirror at<BR>
one end, and a partially reflective mirror at the other end.  I don't see<BR>
where how a "focal array" fits into this picture.  I only ask because I<BR>
would like to design lasers for installation in starship turrets, but I<BR>
have only the foggiest sense of what they *look* like, and thus am having<BR>
trouble deciding whether a given laser would, or would not, be able to fit<BR>
into a given turret. <BR>
                                                               - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:14:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at  close range<BR>
<BR>
> >Stupid question number 639:  Do any of the various rule sets indicate if<BR>
> >it's possible to doctor the engines to make a ship go boom!?  <BR>
> IMTU, I allow<BR>
> >someone with adequate engineering to muck up a drive (disable safety<BR>
> >systems, etc) so that it will blow.  All without the need of any <BR>
> additional<BR>
> >self-destruct device.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Thanks, Tod<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> VERY old White Dwarf article covered this...I'll look it up if you are<BR>
> interested?<BR>
> <BR>
> Stephen<BR>
> <BR>
Yes, please.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:19:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/7/00 11:46 PM, robocon@ozemail.com.au issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Is the equator hexrow 0 in First In?<BR>
<BR>
No, there is no hex row zero from what I am reading, but rather the equator<BR>
runs between two rows crossing top and bottom corners of each. They are<BR>
labeled 1South ans 1North and it counts up from there. Apathy and list<BR>
traffic are to others I hadn't thought of. Factors indeed.<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:50:35 -0700<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: D20<BR>
<BR>
>GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :<BR>
><BR>
>  > > But the rot didn't set in until TW2000 v2.2, when the evil D20 was<BR>
>  > >  introduced. Well, let's just say the rot wasn't terminal until then.<BR>
>  ><BR>
>  > I just wish we'd trademarked "D20 System"<BR>
><BR>
>You'd have difficulty, there were D20 systems before there were roleplaying<BR>
>gams.<BR>
<BR>
You don't have to be first ones to _use_ d20.  You have to be<BR>
first ones to use it as a trade mark (ie identify your product<BR>
as the "d20 system")<BR>
<BR>
So GDW could have sold...<BR>
"Twilight 2000, with the d20 system!"<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:53:12 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> In an attempt to localize the source of my difficulties with the starship<BR>
> weapon design rules in the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel," I<BR>
> tried to recreate one of the lasers from the "Standard Ship Design<BR>
> System."  Here are the characteristics of the laser in question:<BR>
<BR>
(many numbers snipped)<BR>
<BR>
> Clearly, I made a *serious* mistake, somewhere.  It is simply impossible<BR>
> to believe that a laser intended to fit in small (42 cubic meter) turret<BR>
> has a focal array whose diameter is over ninety meters!<BR>
<BR>
My first guess would be that you didn't design a grav focused laser.  Grav<BR>
focusing is a handwave introduced to allow lasers to have long ranges<BR>
without huge focal arrays.  Since you came up with the latter after<BR>
starting with the former, that's where I'd look, but I don't own the T4<BR>
version of FF&S (and am not near my copy of the TNE version) so I can't<BR>
say for sure.<BR>
<BR>
Hopefully, someone else can explain what a focal array is.  I'm kind of<BR>
curious myself, now.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:20:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> On 7 Jul 00, at 17:16, Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote :<BR>
> > > Here in NZ it's remembering the "black-boot army", back when they real<BR>
> > > leather boots, and tucked their shirts in.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hey, I still have my black leather boots !<BR>
> > Both the combat ones and the flying ones.<BR>
><BR>
> Three pairs of combat boots, though they're pretty worn out. Being Army<BR>
> I never got flying ones (do they have wings?)<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
Nope, they're basically shorter than combat boots, but still provide good<BR>
support for the ankles, more comfortable (lining even) and more expensive<BR>
because most of the people who get them are officers.<BR>
<BR>
I only got mine because I was support crew for the Red Checkers airbatic<BR>
team and we had to fly round the country with the planes. And I only got to<BR>
keep them (along with the rest of the flight kit) because of a friendly<BR>
store clerk who shall remain nameless.<BR>
<BR>
> > And I still tuck  my shirt in too !<BR>
><BR>
> Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies<BR>
> have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
<BR>
Not looking tidy is bad for morale !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2737<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2738</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2738<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Silly Weapons Questions<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser (was Laser Calculation Difficulties)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties [longish]<BR>
Re: Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Download a person<BR>
RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
Fifth Frontier War done for Aide de Camp!<BR>
Re: Re : Interrogation (was : Useful Prisoners)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:29:42 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
><BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies<BR>
> > have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
><BR>
> Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
> inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
<BR>
You obviously haven't studied the history of the British Empire, you untidy<BR>
slob !<BR>
<BR>
<grin - just in case><BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 08:19:25 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Weapons Questions<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
><BR>
> I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about $100,000<BR>
US.<BR>
> Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I have to<BR>
wait<BR>
> for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
<BR>
Almost certainly not a Mig-29, although you could probably get some sort of<BR>
MiG in some sort of condition for a hundred grand in cash.<BR>
<BR>
If you fancy sailing, last I heard the Ethiopian Navy was still for sale -<BR>
one of their rocket cutters could be just the thing for tooling around Puget<BR>
Sound in ...<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:39:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Jonathan  Turner wrote :<BR>
> At 09:23 AM 7/7/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> After a while, some people will just go<BR>
> >'buggers', being trapped in a suit.<BR>
><BR>
> My point exactly. Put far more eloquently, into the bargain!<BR>
<BR>
Thing is, such people shouldn't be employed on military starships.<BR>
<BR>
Basic training should invlove a multi-day mission in which you remain in<BR>
your suit for the whole time, such as a "survival excercise" on an airless<BR>
moon.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who can't get through that should be asked to leave or relegated to<BR>
"shore" duties.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:18:48 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
On 07/07/00 at 01:27 PM,  "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
>> Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain to <BR>
>> create MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable <BR>
>> interrogation drugs. <BR>
<BR>
>Making the use of MemWipe (or ...*shudder*... FullWipe!) even more<BR>
>necessary by your senior officers upon capture.  <BR>
<BR>
>Consider that this level of brain biochemistry knowledge might even allow<BR>
>a dead person's brain to be read for memories, including long term ones. <BR>
>A senior officer, upon imminent capture, might very well turn himself<BR>
>into a memoryless vegetable rather than betray his long list of state<BR>
>secrets to the enemy.<BR>
<BR>
In _Survival Margin_ a defecting Lucan scientist is assassanated in<BR>
an Illish starport.  The "investigators" use ?psi? techniques to<BR>
retrieve limited information from dead man.  From the description<BR>
they would have been able to retrieve much more if they had been<BR>
able to get to him more quickly.  So, using biochemistry (not to<BR>
mention psi) to extract information during a post-mortum examination<BR>
is known in the OTU.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:49:15 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
<BR>
This is the well known phenomonon of the 'TML Black Hole Of Quality'<BR>
whereby stunning posts go without notice or much discussion, and offhand<BR>
comments about Jury Duty go on for days...<BR>
<BR>
The key is to listen carefully and see if you can hear the global<BR>
clattering of hard drives as you post gets sucked into everyone's<BR>
'saved-tml' files...;-)<BR>
<BR>
As for the mapping, I said nothing 'cause I don't know nothing...my<BR>
WBH/WTH/GT FI/GS are all at home, buried under a pile of other stuff.<BR>
<BR>
However, I vaguely suspect a graphical typo in the maps with the extra<BR>
row (actually, it's a single hex if you look carefully) rather than a<BR>
disparity in how he maps are made.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:00:06 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote :<BR>
> Stephen Bankhead wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >Bear in mind that, if fusion drives could _possibly_ be rigged to blow<BR>
> > >up as a fusion bomb, then fusion-powered starships would be _very_ rare<BR>
> > >in civilian hands.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
> > >possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
> > >section.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The same argument could be made for the drivers of petrol tankers or<BR>
> > chemical tanker today...they arn't banned from existing.<BR>
><BR>
> True, but gasoline tankers are not classified as weapons of mass<BR>
> destruction.<BR>
<BR>
Neither are starships.<BR>
<BR>
May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
civilian hands ?<BR>
<BR>
Completely independant of whether you can make a fission or fusion reactor<BR>
blow up, one could create a pretty huge explosion based on the cargo of such<BR>
a ship.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 15:55:29 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
John Groth wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Admittedly, I may be biased by serving in an army that gives enlisted<BR>
> personnel responsibilities that other forces may reserve to officers.  I<BR>
> still recall how surprised the Israeli officers with whom I dealt as an<BR>
> Arabic interpreter with the MFO were to learn that I had no desire to<BR>
> seek a commission.<BR>
<BR>
Well, part of this is due to the strength of the Israeli Army 'Good Ol'<BR>
Boy' network...a commission in the Army translates to significant<BR>
economic gains in many parts of the Israeli economy. It is a fading but<BR>
still potent advantage in gaining contracts and suchlike to have been an<BR>
officer in the Army there, moreso than in the US.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:01:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser (was Laser Calculation Difficulties)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
> Subject: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
><BR>
> In an attempt to localize the source of my difficulties with the starship<BR>
> weapon design rules in the "T4" edition of "Fire, Fusion, and Steel," I<BR>
> tried to recreate one of the lasers from the "Standard Ship Design<BR>
> System."  Here are the characteristics of the laser in question:<BR>
><BR>
> Tech Level = 12<BR>
> Discharge Energy (DE) = 95 megajoules<BR>
> Actual Range (RangeA) = 1 light second, or 300,000 kilometers, or<BR>
>                         300,000,000 meters<BR>
> Damage = 24<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
What a wussy laser. Barely capable of penetrating a civilian hull. You can<BR>
tell Famile Spofulam didnt win the contract on that one ;)<BR>
<BR>
OK, Ditzie will build her version. DE of 81 MJ will have a damage of 32<BR>
under the errata, btw.<BR>
<BR>
Basic range is 300 kkm, and we want the basic range to be the effective<BR>
range, so the focal array of diameter equation is ...<BR>
<BR>
300 000=range factor<100>*GF focal multiplier<250>*GF Array Diameter^2<BR>
<BR>
300 000 = 25 000 * D^2<BR>
12 = D^2<BR>
D = sqrt(12) (which is about 3.47 meters. I'll leave it as sqrt 12 though).<BR>
<BR>
The area of this array is pi*D^2/4, or 3pi ... 9.43 m^2<BR>
<BR>
At DE 81, the volume of this array at TL12 is 9.43*81*0.001 <NB if this was<BR>
a real FS design, it would be firing at 24 shots per minute, and would thus<BR>
be 8 times bigger. This is a good deal, because you only need one<BR>
accumulator bank and one beam pointer, and it's them, not the laser itself,<BR>
that costs. I think RF lasers are the infamous 'triple laser turret' of CT>,<BR>
or 0.76 m3 (yup. 8 cm thick), 0.76t, and KCr 155 or so.<BR>
<BR>
Next, the accumulator bank for an 81 MJ laser ... we get 20 MJ per m3 of<BR>
accumulator at TL12, and we need 5 MJ of input per MJ of output, so we need<BR>
20.25 m3 of accumulator for 40.5t and KCr 205 (power demand is 405 MJ, which<BR>
means 20 MW for one shot every 20 seconds. Those of you with small power<BR>
plants may wish to invest 13 m3, 26 t and KCr 65 in a one hour duration TL12<BR>
battery pack to power the laser, allowing the actual power plant to dedicate<BR>
it's energies to energising the jump grid so you can get the hell out of<BR>
there, rather than rely on a slow-firing 80 megajoule laser ...).<BR>
<BR>
Next, the beam pointer. We buy a 500 kkm model, as a 300 kkm model is<BR>
unavailable <and will definitely bloody be there in FFS3>. 16.67m3, 16.67t<BR>
and KCr 1667.<BR>
<BR>
By my numbers, the unit fits into about 37.5 m3, masses about 60 tons and<BR>
costs about MCr 2.1. Fits pretty snugly into a standard 3dton turret.<BR>
<BR>
Most of that is due to the lack of a 250 kkm beam pointer. If there is one<BR>
of them for, say half the size, mass and cost of the 500kkm version, then it<BR>
would come down in price to MCr 1.2 or so.<BR>
<BR>
If we want to get it cheaper, then we need civilian-grade beam pointers,<BR>
that arent designed to pick off missiles at or about 1 light-second.<BR>
<BR>
> Note that the "Standard Ship Design System" provided the laser's range in<BR>
> tenths of a light second.  Since I wanted to calculate the diameter of the<BR>
> laser's focal array, and hoped to get an answer in meters, I started by<BR>
> converting the range from light seconds into meters.<BR>
<BR>
Thats your mistake. The formulas work in kilometers for ranges and stuff,<BR>
and the equipment size is crunched out in meters.<BR>
<BR>
<stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
> Clearly, I made a *serious* mistake, somewhere.  It is simply impossible<BR>
> to believe that a laser intended to fit in small (42 cubic meter) turret<BR>
> has a focal array whose diameter is over ninety meters!<BR>
><BR>
> This brings me, by the way, to my second question: just what *is* a "focal<BR>
> array?"  I don't know very much about laser anatomy, but I vaguely recall<BR>
> that an ordinary 20th century laser consists of a power supply and a<BR>
> cylinder of "lasing material," capped with a fully reflective mirror at<BR>
> one end, and a partially reflective mirror at the other end.  I don't see<BR>
> where how a "focal array" fits into this picture.  I only ask because I<BR>
> would like to design lasers for installation in starship turrets, but I<BR>
> have only the foggiest sense of what they *look* like, and thus am having<BR>
> trouble deciding whether a given laser would, or would not, be able to fit<BR>
> into a given turret.<BR>
>                                                                - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
The focal array is the lasing tube.<BR>
<BR>
The above laser probably looks a bit like an overgrown satellite receiver<BR>
dish.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:52:22 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
> civilian hands ?<BR>
<BR>
Really? I can recall only one nuclear powered civilian merchant ship...<BR>
<BR>
You have any details?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:18:42 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <BR>
>	I would expect that boarding <BR>
>	parties would be sent on to a disabled ship at the first opportunity.<BR>
>	They would have orders to assess the situation, and if practical<BR>
>	prevent ship reactivation/obtain intel/capture enemy/take control.<BR>
>	This might involve some shooting, but the boarding parties are<BR>
>	probably told to avoid serious resistance.<BR>
<BR>
Sending robots in first might be a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:47:08 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties [longish]<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This brings me, by the way, to my second question: just what *is* a "focal<BR>
>array?"  I don't know very much about laser anatomy, but I vaguely recall<BR>
>that an ordinary 20th century laser consists of a power supply and a<BR>
>cylinder of "lasing material," capped with a fully reflective mirror at<BR>
>one end, and a partially reflective mirror at the other end.  I don't see<BR>
>where how a "focal array" fits into this picture.  I only ask because I<BR>
>would like to design lasers for installation in starship turrets, but I<BR>
>have only the foggiest sense of what they *look* like, and thus am having<BR>
>trouble deciding whether a given laser would, or would not, be able to fit<BR>
>into a given turret.<BR>
<BR>
I think that you will find a general consensus amongst the gearheads that<BR>
Traveller lasers need to be free electron lasers (FELs), rather than the<BR>
resonant cavity type which you describe. In an FEL, a beam of electrons is<BR>
passed through a periodic array (wigglers) of magnets which deflect the<BR>
electrons' path, causing the emission of radiation. Through physics which I<BR>
have forgotten, but Kristian Miller may be able to explain easily, the<BR>
resulting radiation is coherent. I talked to the people at the Advanced<BR>
Photon Source at Argonne National Lab about four years ago about their<BR>
system, which is a huge FEL which can crank out coherent x-rays with a<BR>
relatively big coherence volume, but I have long since forgotten the<BR>
details.<BR>
<BR>
Lasers with a resonant cavity have one big limitation: the beams which come<BR>
out are Gaussian, so that they will spread out significantly as they<BR>
propagate. This limits their useful range as a weapon.<BR>
<BR>
One major difference with an FEL is that you probably aim the electron beam<BR>
rather than the light itself, so you probably don't need much is the way of<BR>
optics. In any case, the photons used in weapons lasers are probably x-rays,<BR>
so they are probably extremely tough to focus much anyway. Because you have<BR>
to aim the electron beam so precisely, your laser turret will be isolated<BR>
from the vibrations which may bump it out of alignment.<BR>
<BR>
If we assume that we have an FEL for a laser weapon, we need some source for<BR>
fast moving electrons, like a cyclotron. So I imagine a big ring around a<BR>
ship which stores the zipping electrons, and the laser turrets will pull<BR>
electrons of the ring as needed to produce a laser pulse. The equipment in<BR>
the laser turrets would be extremely powerful magnets, which act as the<BR>
wigglers for the FEL.<BR>
<BR>
With FELs, you get the emission of the photon in a cone, the size of which<BR>
is a function of the energy of the photon, something to do with the<BR>
uncertainty principle I would guess. These calculations are beyond me, but<BR>
Kristian Miller tells me that the cone for 1 MeV photons is sufficiently<BR>
narrow to be useful weapon.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:16:39 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
tongue in cheek remark towards all that 'flesh rot' talk..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Re : Traveller's Bar Guide (and side effects of potables)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Jory Earl, the "J-Man" wrote :-<BR>
> >Ever get that "not so fresh" feeling?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure what you're referring to, but there's costs associated with<BR>
any drug as well as benefits.<BR>
><BR>
> Robert O'Connor<BR>
> Medico, Gamer<BR>
> This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:39:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 16:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
> > civilian hands ?<BR>
<BR>
> Really? I can recall only one nuclear powered civilian merchant ship...<BR>
<BR>
I know there were at least 3 in the west, plus a whole slew of Russian <BR>
nuclear powered ice-breakers (yes I know they are only borderline civilian)<BR>
<BR>
> You have any details?<BR>
<BR>
Savannah I can remember, but I'm sure that there were others.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:49:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
On 8 Jul 00, at 14:39, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 7 Jul 00, at 16:52, Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
> > > civilian hands ?<BR>
> <BR>
> > Really? I can recall only one nuclear powered civilian merchant ship...<BR>
> <BR>
> I know there were at least 3 in the west, plus a whole slew of Russian <BR>
> nuclear powered ice-breakers (yes I know they are only borderline civilian)<BR>
> <BR>
> > You have any details?<BR>
> <BR>
> Savannah I can remember, but I'm sure that there were others.<BR>
<BR>
Found it, in addition to the Savannah there was the German Otto Hahn and <BR>
the Japanese Mutsu. All were technically successful but proved <BR>
uneconomic. The Russians still use a lot of nuclear ice-breakers in the <BR>
Arctic Ocean, some of which are built in Finland and Poland apparently.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:29:09 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Ian Ferguson <BR>
> >	I would expect that boarding <BR>
> >	parties would be sent on to a disabled ship at the first opportunity.<BR>
> >	They would have orders to assess the situation, and if practical<BR>
> >	prevent ship reactivation/obtain intel/capture enemy/take control.<BR>
> >	This might involve some shooting, but the boarding parties are<BR>
> >	probably told to avoid serious resistance.<BR>
> <BR>
> Sending robots in first might be a good idea.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Or might not.  The discussion sounds like who/whatever goes in will have<BR>
to make decisions about when to kill and when to take prisoners.  Robots<BR>
tend to be poor at making judgement calls.<BR>
Unless they're infected with one of the more late-generation strains of<BR>
Virus </heresy>.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 04:48:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
Is there an emoticon for embarressment.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:08 AM 7/5/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >I wrote two stories.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >'Remembrance of the Daleks' (1987)<BR>
> >'Battlefield' (1988)<BR>
><BR>
> Damn! Those were two excellent serials!<BR>
><BR>
> Penguin Boy bows in honor of the man who let Daleks<BR>
climb stairs.<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.rogers-sf.com/doctorwho/story7h.shtml<BR>
><BR>
> Penguin Boy grovels before the man who brought back<BR>
UNIT.<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.rogers-sf.com/doctorwho/story7n.shtml<BR>
><BR>
> If you ever get out here, Kirsten and I will ply you<BR>
with booze to get all<BR>
> the good stories.<BR>
><BR>
> OK, I'll stop ranting now.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>   http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
> "But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is<BR>
that I am now a<BR>
> perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is<BR>
rapidly running out of<BR>
> limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 14:51:08 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > > Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies<BR>
> > > have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
> > inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
><BR>
> You obviously haven't studied the history of the British Empire, you untidy<BR>
> slob !<BR>
><BR>
> <grin - just in case><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
<BR>
Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
(Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:50:38 +0800<BR>
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au><BR>
Subject: Download a person<BR>
<BR>
http://genome.cse.ucsc.edu/goldenPath/15june2000/bigZips/<BR>
<BR>
yes download your very own person, only 700megs !!<BR>
In my talons I shape clay.....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:04:22 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
<BR>
Not if you consider the focal array would be the part that sticks out of<BR>
the turret and all the "stuff" is in the turret, (like a battle ship gun<BR>
turret) and in space it does not matter how foar something sticks out.<BR>
<BR>
just my $0.02.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
Clearly, I made a *serious* mistake, somewhere.  It is simply impossible<BR>
<BR>
to believe that a laser intended to fit in small (42 cubic meter) turret<BR>
<BR>
has a focal array whose diameter is over ninety meters!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:37:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
<BR>
Lol - that would look funny as all get out on a 32m long Scout Courier.<BR>
<BR>
90m guns sheesh :) We could build a turrent mounted PAW like that ;)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ken J.<BR>
Kazinski<BR>
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 11:04 PM<BR>
To: Traveller List<BR>
Subject: RE: Laser Calculation Difficulties<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Not if you consider the focal array would be the part that sticks out of<BR>
the turret and all the "stuff" is in the turret, (like a battle ship gun<BR>
turret) and in space it does not matter how foar something sticks out.<BR>
<BR>
just my $0.02.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
Clearly, I made a *serious* mistake, somewhere.  It is simply impossible<BR>
<BR>
to believe that a laser intended to fit in small (42 cubic meter) turret<BR>
<BR>
has a focal array whose diameter is over ninety meters!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:07:31 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Fifth Frontier War done for Aide de Camp!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it's true! The ADC2 conversion for FFW is finally complete. It is now<BR>
possible to play this classic Traveller game in its new electronic form.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:01:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Interrogation (was : Useful Prisoners)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
>> IMTU, we have a drug called MemWipe, which destroys short<BR>
>> term memory (which is believed to be stored differently<BR>
>> than long term memories--perhaps Robert can speak to this).<BR>
> Memory is stored throughout the brain, but the centre responsible<BR>
> for establishing short-term memory is quite discrete (the hippocampi,<BR>
> as mentioned in a recent post). So you're not going to disturb as<BR>
> much by tweaking the hippocampi. E.g. ethanol, Stygian Bliss<g>.<BR>
><BR>
> Anthony Jackson wrote :-<BR>
>> Of course, if you know enough about the biochemistry of the brain<BR>
>> to create MemWipe, you probably also know enough to create reliable<BR>
>> interrogation drugs.<BR>
><BR>
> Historically, the drugs used have been sedatives or hypnotics.<BR>
> Barbiturate abreaction was used after WW2 in the treatment of post<BR>
> traumatic stress disorder. While intoxicated, the stream of<BR>
> consciousness tended to flow more quickly. Inhibitions about talking<BR>
> about unpleasant experiences were removed.<BR>
><BR>
> Enhanced suggestibility, as well as disinhibition, can also be seen<BR>
> on emergence from any form of general anaesthesia.<BR>
><BR>
> The best combination would be hypnotics and virtual reality. You would<BR>
> confide in a friend or loved one (or debrief to a senior officer),<BR>
> yes?<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith wrote :-<BR>
>> Consider that this level of brain biochemistry knowledge<BR>
>> might even allow a dead person's brain to be read for memories,<BR>
>> including long term ones.<BR>
><BR>
> It's not all that far away ; remember the recent work with 'interrogating'<BR>
> the visual centres of cats that made the news last year.<BR>
><BR>
> The best defense against such memory reading is erasure or destruction<BR>
> of the relevant brain. Ten minutes of cerebral anoxia will certainly<BR>
> put the information beyond the reach of anyone, as the cells will be<BR>
> so much mush.<BR>
><BR>
> Neckties and belts are just as useful in this form of 'information denial'<BR>
> as bombs, bullets and knives.<BR>
><BR>
> Non-traumatic amnesia appears only to be possible with anaesthetic<BR>
> or near anaesthetic doses of various sedatives, e.g. ethanol, <BR>
> benzodiazepines, various injectable and inhaled agents.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmm... maybe a highly selective GABA agonist would do the trick.<BR>
<BR>
You might want to read "Mindkiller" by Spider Robinson. It's been<BR>
re-released as the first half of "Deathkiller". It deals with<BR>
"mindwipe", among other things.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:08:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Any level of gamma radiation that is quickly fatal to humans will fry<BR>
>>semiconductors, and likely won't be very good for optical computers<BR>
>>*especially* for storage media.<BR>
><BR>
> The LD50 for people is only about 600 cGy, which will not cause too much<BR>
> damage to military equipment.<BR>
<BR>
Notice where I said *quickly* fatal. The LD50 dose won't even<BR>
*incapacitiate* for hours. As I recall, the "quickly incapacitate"<BR>
value (ie near immediate onset of CN syndrome) is something above<BR>
10,000 REM.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have my stuff on radiation dosages available. It, like too much<BR>
of my library, is buried in storage.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2738<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2739</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2739<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
RE: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
Touching off the star drive<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re : Useful Prisoners<BR>
Re : Download a person<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:14:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is<BR>
>> a fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing<BR>
>> to do with availability of supplies.  After a while, some people<BR>
>> will just go 'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  A safe area where<BR>
>> crew can rest, tend to bodily functions, and just not smell there<BR>
>> own sweat for even a brief time would be invaluable.  Without such a<BR>
>> facility, the crew being will wear out long before his suit does.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course, as the commander of the victorious fleet, I would park a<BR>
> destroyer a few kilometers away from the crippled ship, take careful aim,<BR>
> and drill a hole in that safe area.  A few of the enemy will die, of<BR>
> course, but those who don't will be that much more eager to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
Not so minor detail. How would you know where it *was*?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:17:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard  Erickson wrote :<BR>
>> > How much air and water are integral to vaccsuits, etc.?<BR>
>> > What are the sources of resupply aboard ship?<BR>
>><BR>
>> There's a *far* more critical factor limiting how long you can stay in<BR>
>> a vaccsuit. One that has yet to be solved. Waste disposal.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Urine is *easy* to deal with for men. For women, it requires a<BR>
>> catheter, which is both unpleasant and prone to cause infections.<BR>
><BR>
>> Feces are the big problem. The current "solution" is disposable<BR>
>> diapers. Yes, the disposable diasper is actually a spin-off of the<BR>
>> space program!<BR>
>><BR>
>> Obviously, this is *not* practical for more than a few hours. No way is<BR>
>> it doable for days.<BR>
><BR>
> I used to go for days without shitting when tramping through the bush,<BR>
> because I preferred using a real toilet. There are many people who do this<BR>
> without wanting to as well. _Days_ are not a problem. _Weeks_ are.<BR>
><BR>
>> Short of nanotech, or surgical modification, I don't really see a<BR>
>> solution.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Food is also a problem. Both because it's hard to get it into a sealed<BR>
>> suit, but also because it'll contribute to the fecal problem...<BR>
><BR>
> Again not for a period of days. Enough energy can be packed into liquid<BR>
> nutrient bags<BR>
> about the size of a coke can to keep you "well-fed" for a couple of days.<BR>
><BR>
> However, why bother ?  Any previoously well-fed person can survive without<BR>
> serious loss of ability for at least a week without _any_ food , especially<BR>
> without much physical exertion.<BR>
<BR>
The problem with *both* of the options you mention is that they require<BR>
advance preparation. And that your body co-operate. Low-residue food,<BR>
and not eating won't do a damn thing about the food already in your<BR>
system when you don the suit. Nor are you going to have time to "take<BR>
care of it" before donning the suit, unless you *know* you are going<BR>
into combat (and maybe not even then, if you are at the end of the line<BR>
for the head).<BR>
<BR>
And for both morale and health reasons, you can't just make the crews<BR>
*live* on low residue food all the time. Note that even *with* advance<BR>
prep, and low residue foods, the Apollo astronauts *still* needed those<BR>
damn diapers.<BR>
<BR>
> You need liquids more.<BR>
<BR>
No argument there.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:23:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about $100,000 US.<BR>
> Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I have to wait<BR>
> for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
<BR>
Just rent a hangar at Portland International. Prefferably next to the<BR>
Air Guard facilities. I want to see their reaction as you taxi by. :-)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The reaction at a Starport that includes a Navy base when the<BR>
Navy's sensor techs realize that the "small craft" that is in final<BR>
approach is a Zhodani fighter.<BR>
<BR>
It's perfectly legal, just a war souvenir someone picked up after the<BR>
5FW and restored. But *they* don't know that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. I wonder what you could do with an SR-71 in the way of<BR>
"upgrading" it, while still retaining the external appearance?<BR>
Do they make fusion reactors and HEPlar units that small?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:31:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 8:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
>> come by. <BR>
>> <BR>
>> Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
>> *that* take. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> First you'd have to have permission from U.S. Customs to import the weapon.<BR>
><BR>
> Then you'd have to pay the $200 tax to register your "destructive device";<BR>
> you'd have to supply your photo, your fingerprints, and an application<BR>
> signed by your local chief law enforcement official.<BR>
><BR>
> Just don't tell the NRC, the EPA, the FBI, etc.<BR>
<BR>
You mean the BATF *won't* tell them? :-)<BR>
<BR>
In any case, I don't think the EPA has jurisdiction until and unless I<BR>
do something that might result in contamination. <BR>
<BR>
The NRC could be a problem. And the FBI might be a bit worried about me.<BR>
<BR>
> And remember, the tax covers just that item, so if you use your nuke up,<BR>
> you'll have to pay the tax again for the next one.<BR>
<BR>
Oh, I'm not planning on using it up. <BR>
<BR>
"What do you mean, it's wired to a heart monitor?!" <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:35:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> on 7/6/00 8:52 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet nukes are easy to<BR>
>>> come by. <BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and transfer tax would<BR>
>>> *that* take. :-)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Cheryl answered this one.  I think you also need to fill out an ATF form 6<BR>
>> and 6A.  Cheryl?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod, there are no forms 6/6A.  To import (in theory) a RFAS (Russian<BR>
> Federation and/or Allied States) nuke, you'd need to have the following<BR>
> completed BATF forms:<BR>
><BR>
> ATF F 5300.42           CERTIFICATION OF SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICES<BR>
<BR>
Ok, it looks like it's time to check out the price of one of the<BR>
decommissioned SAC bases. Or at least one of the "special weapons"<BR>
bunkers and some surrounding land. <BR>
<BR>
> ATF F 5320.2            Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported<BR>
> ATF F 5320.20           Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily<BR>
>                         Export Certain National Firearms Act Firearms<BR>
> ATF F 5330.3A           Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms,<BR>
>                         Ammunition and Implements of War<BR>
> ATF F 5330.3B           Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms,<BR>
>                         Ammunition and Implements of War<BR>
> ATF F 5330.4 (4587)     Application to Register as an Importer of<BR>
>                         U.S. Munitions Import List Articles<BR>
> ATF F 5400.13           Application for License or Permit under<BR>
>                         18 U.S.C. Chapter 40, Explosives<BR>
><BR>
> Additionally, you'll need an import license from the Office of Nuclear<BR>
> Material Safety and Safeguards (Nuclear Regulatory Commission), and<BR>
> you'll need to secure permission from the U.S. State Dept. for all of<BR>
> the above.<BR>
<BR>
> Unfortunately, both the "U.S. - IAEA Safeguards Agreement" and the<BR>
> "Nuclear Non-proliferation Act of 1978" prohibit exactly the kind<BR>
> of tranfer you discuss. :^(<BR>
<BR>
Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:38:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk wrote :<BR>
><BR>
>> I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about<BR>
>> $100,000 US.<BR>
>> Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I<BR>
>> have to wait for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
><BR>
> There's a guy in New Zealand who bought a couple of Russian jet<BR>
> fighters, has them sitting in a field outside his farmhouse.<BR>
><BR>
> No problem buying them or importing them, the problem is getting<BR>
> permission to fly them !<BR>
<BR>
That's where having the Air Guard base nearby is handy. Offer to let<BR>
them use it in excercises. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:39:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 7:29 PM, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> <<snip>><BR>
>> <BR>
>> What the ship's engineer could do along these lines could just quite<BR>
>> possibly be done by a terrorist with access to a ship's engineering<BR>
>> section.  Since civilian fusion-powered starships _are_ relatively<BR>
>> common, we must assume that fusion plants can't be rigged to go BOOM.<BR>
>> Maybe _bang_ (destroying the plant, and damaging the rest of<BR>
>> engineering), but not BOOM.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, terrorist could certainly aim a ship at a city and crash it at very<BR>
> high velocities.<BR>
<BR>
True, and that *is* a problem. Which is why they have STC (Space<BR>
Traffic Control). If your vector points too close to the planet, except<BR>
during the final approach for landing, and you don't *immediately*<BR>
alter course in accordance with STC instructions, you'll find out just<BR>
how good their long range anti-ship weapons are.<BR>
<BR>
> And I didn't say it would be easy.  With time and the right materials<BR>
> and knowledge, you can make just about any powered vehicle go boom.<BR>
<BR>
Let me know how to make an Electric car do it *without* adding lots of<BR>
explosives. <BR>
<BR>
In any case, most of the time you'll be setting off the *fuel*. I<BR>
pointed out how to do that with a starship.<BR>
<BR>
> Why should star ships be any 'safer than an airliner?<BR>
<BR>
Well, as I and others have pointed out, the big difference is that<BR>
fusion reactors can't have a runaway chain reaction. If you compromise<BR>
containment, the reaction stops. And if you try to "force feed" extra<BR>
fuel, you'll kill the reaction also. <BR>
<BR>
It'd be easier to build a bomb from scratch using the machinery in the<BR>
ship's machine shop than it would be to modify the reactor into a nuke.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:48:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> John Groth wrote :<BR>
>> Stephen Bankhead wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>> True, but gasoline tankers are not classified as weapons of mass<BR>
>> destruction.<BR>
><BR>
> Neither are starships.<BR>
><BR>
> May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
> civilian hands ?<BR>
<BR>
There are? I thought the *only* nuclear powered civilian vessel was the<BR>
Savannah.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:50:03 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 6:42 PM, Bolie Williams IV at bolie@io.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> A fusion power plant would be very difficult to turn into a bomb.<BR>
>> Only a pulsed fusion plant would even be able to be turned into a<BR>
>> bomb and then it probably wouldn't be very powerful.<BR>
><BR>
> Please define powerful. Or not very powerful.<BR>
<BR>
See my post. A 10 gigawatt reactor is likely to "explode" with as<BR>
little as the force of 2.5 kilograms of TNT. A pulse fusion reactor<BR>
isn't practical for a shipboard powerplant, though it could work as a<BR>
drive once you are in space. That might get up to blockbuster levels of<BR>
energy release (say a couple of tons of TNT). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:01:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/6/00 5:11 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Is it just my imagination, or an indication of the average age of the<BR>
>> people on this list that most of the Star Trek references are from the<BR>
>> original series?  :)<BR>
>> (Classic Trekker and proud of it - Reruns?  Hell, I have memories of the<BR>
>> original broadcasts)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training)<BR>
><BR>
> The original is the best.  We has a Captain who knew how to fight, kick<BR>
> alien butt and still bag the babe in every episode.  The token emotion free<BR>
> alien bright boy didn't have weird symbolic dream-things going on or just<BR>
> 'go off' and put the whole crew at risk.  The doc knew how to fix a decnt<BR>
> drink (mint julip with proper bourbon) and the engineer could not only fix<BR>
> anything with spit and bailing wire, but he could get a REAL woman.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, any *real* military organization would have bounced<BR>
him on his ass before the end of the first season. The *Captain* has no<BR>
business on landing parties. And then *compounding* it by thaking his<BR>
exec, and the chief medical officer or chief engineer (gee, the top<BR>
three *command* officers, all off the ship and in the same place!)<BR>
<BR>
And violating Prime Directive every time he turned around? Usually with<BR>
the argument that he "knew better" how the natives should run their<BR>
lives? Yeah, right.<BR>
<BR>
> Whai is it with the folks who wrote ST:TNG?    If we could just understand<BR>
> each other, then we'd all be friends?  And how about how to run a vessel.<BR>
> Did any of those writers ever hear of 'unity of command'?<BR>
<BR>
They did go overboard in the other direction at times. But at least<BR>
they (mostly) avoided the problems of the original series. Alas, they<BR>
created a whole *new* set, all their own.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:47:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> A little bit of pressure eqalization is all you should need to pop <BR>
>>> free.  <BR>
>><BR>
>> That's going to need some *high pressure* air. Otherwise the ground <BR>
>> will get pushed into the tubing instead of air coming out of it. <BR>
><BR>
> Good point, hadn't thought of that.  Too bad there isn't a really<BR>
> powerful energy source handy to drive a small-volume, high-pressure <BR>
> air pump.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that high pressure valves, tanking, and piping are<BR>
rather touchy.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:11:29 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > May I point out that there are currently fission-powered<BR>
> > super-tankers in civilian hands ?<BR>
><BR>
> Really? I can recall only one nuclear powered civilian merchant ship...<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can recall two off the top of my head, the Savannah, the Otto Hahn a<BR>
German ore carrier.<BR>
<BR>
But while the the tanker was a Mitsubishi design I can't find any evidence<BR>
it was actually built, so I'll withdraw the statement.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:15:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > > Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
> > > inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You obviously haven't studied the history of the British<BR>
>>  Empire, you untidy slob !<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <grin - just in case><BR>
> > Frankie><BR>
><BR>
> Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
> (Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
<BR>
Either, both showed the effects of proper shaving and spit-polish on unruly<BR>
native troops.<BR>
<BR>
< again grin - just in case><BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:17 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
>> The same argument could be made for the drivers of petrol tankers or<BR>
>> chemical tanker today...they arn't banned from existing.<BR>
><BR>
>True, but gasoline tankers are not classified as weapons of mass<BR>
>destruction.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Depends where they are when they go BOOM! 8-)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:00:18 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
>May I point out that there are currently fission-powered super-tankers in<BR>
>civilian hands ?<BR>
><BR>
>Completely independant of whether you can make a fission or fusion reactor<BR>
>blow up, one could create a pretty huge explosion based on the cargo of such<BR>
>a ship.<BR>
><BR>
>Frankie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Very True, never thought of that!  Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:01:22 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 4:48 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Hollywood Guns (was:M1)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Is there an emoticon for embarressment.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<cause of embarrassment snipped><BR>
<BR>
How about  :-*)<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:16:32 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Moin Gregory Carl Kettler,<BR>
<BR>
> Or might not.  The discussion sounds like who/whatever goes in will have<BR>
> to make decisions about when to kill and when to take prisoners.  Robots<BR>
> tend to be poor at making judgement calls.<BR>
> Unless they're infected with one of the more late-generation strains of<BR>
> Virus </heresy>.<BR>
<BR>
  <tne><BR>
  Those strains, who deceide to kill meat, normaly do it without distinction.<BR>
  Those who distinct between usefull, useless and harmfull meat prefer to<BR>
  delegate this decission to usefull meat.<BR>
  </tne><BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:38:46 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed by a Plasma Gun at close range<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> See my post. A 10 gigawatt reactor is likely to "explode" with as<BR>
> little as the force of 2.5 kilograms of TNT. A pulse fusion reactor<BR>
> isn't practical for a shipboard powerplant, though it could work as a<BR>
> drive once you are in space. That might get up to blockbuster levels of<BR>
> energy release (say a couple of tons of TNT). <BR>
 <BR>
  So it might be possible to rig the fusion drive (lets say a wendelstein,<BR>
  able to hold an infinitive stream of fusion in a wendel) to go into the<BR>
  pulse mode for a single time. Adding a bit of C to the mixture as a C-N-O<BR>
  katalisator, modifing the syncron frequency of the lasers, to peak the<BR>
  reaction for a a milisecond pulse, handwaving for the next half hour, <BR>
  would create a 2.5 megaton pulse.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:54:17 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Touching off the star drive<BR>
<BR>
>> VERY old White Dwarf article covered this...I'll look it up if you are<BR>
>> interested?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Stephen<BR>
>> <BR>
>Yes, please.<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Its from an old Andy Slack article in White Dwarf and not as detailed as I<BR>
remembered.<BR>
<BR>
Basically it says it can be done and the effect depends on the drive rating<BR>
<BR>
Drive A = 1 megatonne device<BR>
Drive B = 2 metatonne device<BR>
<BR>
The article goes on to give rules for nukes (air burst, ground burst, blast<BR>
radius etc)<BR>
<BR>
Andy's site says that he will be shortly putting all his articles on the<BR>
web in pdf format, but no date yet.  You want me to post the nuke stats?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 08:01:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the cockpit with<BR>
modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav - Hmm... Probally first reaction, Only ONE? ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
Erickson<BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 12:24 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for about $100,000<BR>
US.<BR>
> Sadly, my wife will not allow the thing in the back yard, so I have to<BR>
wait<BR>
> for a much larger garage. :)<BR>
<BR>
Just rent a hangar at Portland International. Prefferably next to the<BR>
Air Guard facilities. I want to see their reaction as you taxi by. :-)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: The reaction at a Starport that includes a Navy base when the<BR>
Navy's sensor techs realize that the "small craft" that is in final<BR>
approach is a Zhodani fighter.<BR>
<BR>
It's perfectly legal, just a war souvenir someone picked up after the<BR>
5FW and restored. But *they* don't know that.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm. I wonder what you could do with an SR-71 in the way of<BR>
"upgrading" it, while still retaining the external appearance?<BR>
Do they make fusion reactors and HEPlar units that small?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, Jul 9 2000 2:50:04 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Useful Prisoners<BR>
<BR>
Eris wrote :-<BR>
> In _Survival Margin_ a defecting Lucan scientist is assassanated in<BR>
> an Illish starport. The "investigators" use ?psi? techniques to<BR>
> retrieve limited information from dead man.<BR>
> From the description they would have been able to retrieve much more<BR>
> if they had been able to get to him more quickly.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I remember that reference.<BR>
I think his 'down time' was quite brief.<BR>
Emergency services called to the scene do a scoop and run, and then<BR>
the ambulance is diverted... or they just read his brain in the back<BR>
of the car and pronounce him DOA...<BR>
<BR>
Isn't non-destructive memory reading above TTL15 (MT Ref's Companion)?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, Jul 9 2000 2:51:27 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Download a person<BR>
<BR>
'Nattrass' wrote :-<BR>
<genome project URL snipped><BR>
> yes download your very own person, only 700megs !!<BR>
<BR>
We're missing all that critical environmental data in this download. (Nature v. nurture???)<BR>
<BR>
Not that making people is all that tricky anyway.<BR>
<BR>
"Humans are the only relatively lightweight, massively parallel<BR>
processing, adaptable computing systems that can be built by<BR>
unskilled labour."<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2739<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2740</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Saturday, July 8 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2740<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re : Radiation exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser (was Laser Calculation Difficulties)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Mark!)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re : Mapping<BR>
Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
therapeutic value of ship's counselor<BR>
Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
Fusion Reactor Bombs<BR>
Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Re : EMP weapons <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 08:51:12 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Leonard writes:<BR>
<BR>
>>>Any level of gamma radiation that is quickly fatal to humans will fry<BR>
>>>semiconductors, and likely won't be very good for optical computers<BR>
>>>*especially* for storage media.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The LD50 for people is only about 600 cGy, which will not cause too much<BR>
>> damage to military equipment.<BR>
><BR>
>Notice where I said *quickly* fatal. The LD50 dose won't even<BR>
>*incapacitiate* for hours. As I recall, the "quickly incapacitate"<BR>
>value (ie near immediate onset of CN syndrome) is something above<BR>
>10,000 REM.<BR>
<BR>
To produce immediate incapacitation you need a dose of about 1000 cGy. This<BR>
guarantees you taking them out in 5-10 minutes, which is quickly enough to<BR>
be considered "immediate" in a military situation. This is not really much<BR>
more than the LD50.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, Jul 9 2000 3:16:48 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Radiation exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> The LD50 dose won't even *incapacitiate* for hours.<BR>
> As I recall, the "quickly incapacitate"<BR>
> value (ie near immediate onset of CN syndrome) is something above<BR>
> 10,000 REM.                                       <BR>
<BR>
10000 rem is the correct threshold, but :-<BR>
<Harrison's mode><BR>
At doses in excess of 100 Gy (greys) [~10000 rem with QF of 1, or 100 sieverts<BR>
(Sv)] to the total body, death usually occurs 24<BR>
to 48 h later from neurologic and cardiovascular failure. This is known<BR>
as the cerebrovascular syndrome.<BR>
</Harrison's mode><BR>
<BR>
It takes a little while for the inflammatory arteritis to peak and<BR>
smother the brain, hence the 24-28 hours. It could take as long as a<BR>
day to slip into that irreversible* coma.<BR>
<BR>
2-8 Gy bone marrow suppression - 'haemopoietic syndrome'<BR>
5-12 Gy gut suppression - 'gastrointestinal syndrome'<BR>
<BR>
* at tech levels below High Stellar.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:29:16 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser (was Laser Calculation Difficulties)<BR>
<BR>
I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to go over my calculations.<BR>
Am I correct, then, in thinking that I basically had everything right, but<BR>
simply failed to realize that the formulae relating focal array diameter<BR>
to effective range "expected" array diameters to be provided in meters,<BR>
but "churned out" effective range values in kilometers?  Convenient, yes,<BR>
but I really wish the design rules had said this explicitly.<BR>
<BR>
                                                               - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:35:52<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:31 PM 7/7/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> And remember, the tax covers just that item, so if you use your nuke up,<BR>
>> you'll have to pay the tax again for the next one.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh, I'm not planning on using it up. <BR>
<BR>
If you ever come down here to visit, remember that it is a crime to bring,<BR>
or detonate, a nuclear weapon in the People's Republic of Berkeley.  $50<BR>
fine.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:45:42 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 4:15 AM, Frank G. Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
>>> Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
>>>> Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
>>>> inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> You obviously haven't studied the history of the British<BR>
>>> Empire, you untidy slob !<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> <grin - just in case><BR>
>>> Frankie><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
>> (Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
<BR>
Isandawana, BTW<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:52:53 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 12:31 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> First you'd have to have permission from U.S. Customs to import the weapon.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Then you'd have to pay the $200 tax to register your "destructive device";<BR>
>> you'd have to supply your photo, your fingerprints, and an application<BR>
>> signed by your local chief law enforcement official.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Just don't tell the NRC, the EPA, the FBI, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> You mean the BATF *won't* tell them? :-)<BR>
<BR>
Well, it is tax information.  I think that they are prohibited by law from<BR>
disclosing the info.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:03:16 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Mark!)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 12:35 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Tod, there are no forms 6/6A.  To import (in theory) a RFAS (Russian<BR>
>> Federation and/or Allied States) nuke, you'd need to have the following<BR>
>> completed BATF forms:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> ATF F 5300.42           CERTIFICATION OF SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICES<BR>
>> ATF F 5320.2            Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported<BR>
>> ATF F 5320.20           Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily<BR>
>> Export Certain National Firearms Act Firearms<BR>
>> ATF F 5330.3A           Application and Permit for Importation of Firearms,<BR>
>> Ammunition and Implements of War<BR>
<BR>
Mark, I'm now looking at a copy of ATF form 6, "Application for importation<BR>
of firearms, ammunition and implements of war".  The note at the bottom is<BR>
ATF FORM 6 - PART 1 (5330.3A)<BR>
<BR>
Not to pick nits, but my memory isn't that bad.  I believe you need to fill<BR>
out the 6A and submit it to get a form 6.<BR>
<BR>
And its ATF, BTW.  Most federal agencies have adopted 3 letter logos (FBI,<BR>
BOP, BIA, ATF) :)<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, couldn't help myself.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:25:25 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 1:01 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The original is the best.  We has a Captain who knew how to fight, kick<BR>
>> alien butt and still bag the babe in every episode.  The token emotion free<BR>
>> alien bright boy didn't have weird symbolic dream-things going on or just<BR>
>> 'go off' and put the whole crew at risk.  The doc knew how to fix a decnt<BR>
>> drink (mint julip with proper bourbon) and the engineer could not only fix<BR>
>> anything with spit and bailing wire, but he could get a REAL woman.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, any *real* military organization would have bounced<BR>
> him on his ass before the end of the first season. The *Captain* has no<BR>
> business on landing parties. And then *compounding* it by thaking his<BR>
> exec, and the chief medical officer or chief engineer (gee, the top<BR>
> three *command* officers, all off the ship and in the same place!)<BR>
<BR>
Depends on what military we're talking about.  In the age of sail,<BR>
particularly on voyages of discovery, this happened all the time.  Thus you<BR>
get a dead Magellan, Capt. Cook, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> And violating Prime Directive every time he turned around? Usually with<BR>
> the argument that he "knew better" how the natives should run their<BR>
> lives? Yeah, right.<BR>
<BR>
I seem to recall this happening in ST:TNG as well<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> Whai is it with the folks who wrote ST:TNG?    If we could just understand<BR>
>> each other, then we'd all be friends?  And how about how to run a vessel.<BR>
>> Did any of those writers ever hear of 'unity of command'?<BR>
> <BR>
> They did go overboard in the other direction at times. But at least<BR>
> they (mostly) avoided the problems of the original series. Alas, they<BR>
> created a whole *new* set, all their own.<BR>
<BR>
Only some of them weren't problems. A captain has to be decisive, and there<BR>
can't ever be a question as to who in command.  I used to go crazy watching<BR>
the show as half the bridge staff gave orders to the other.<BR>
<BR>
And my favorite peeve.  I would have 'arranged' a 'tragic airlock accident'<BR>
for the ships counselor (How PC -- ok crew let's all 'relate') right after<BR>
the first time she announced "Captain, I sense you're frightened/unsure/etc"<BR>
right in front of the crew.  Yeah, you may be scared sh*tless, but if the<BR>
crew ever knows this, you are in deep trouble.  It is a belief of the<BR>
touchee-feeliee 70s that people need to share their feelings to be all happy<BR>
and well adjusted-like.  Thankfully, this never made it into the military.<BR>
<BR>
"Lt, we are boxed in on three side, ammo's getting low, and relief won't be<BR>
here for three days"><BR>
<BR>
"Sir, you seem a bit stressed.  Maybe you should talk about it, get it out<BR>
in the open.  Men! everyone gather for a group hug"<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Mr. Sensitivity" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"We've got no place in this outfit for good losers.  We want tough hombres<BR>
who will go in there and win!" -Adm. J. Ingram<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 09:37:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
At 08:01 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the cockpit with<BR>
>modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
<BR>
I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red sunbursts on the wings and<BR>
fuselage.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:48:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re : Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/7/00 3:49 PM, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> As for the mapping, I said nothing 'cause I don't know nothing.<BR>
<BR>
I thought I knew something, but I seem to have been mistaken. Typical.<BR>
<BR>
> my WBH/WTH/GT FI/GS are all at home, buried under a pile of other stuff.<BR>
<BR>
And you probably aren't interested in parting with WBH or WTH, are you? ;)<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:49:04 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 9:37 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 08:01 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>> My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the cockpit with<BR>
>> modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red sunbursts on the wings and<BR>
> fuselage.<BR>
<BR>
FW-190 please. Or, just to raise some hackles, perhaps a B-29 for a goodwill<BR>
trip to Southeast Asia<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Ducking" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:00:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: therapeutic value of ship's counselor<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> A captain has to be decisive, and there can't ever be a question as to<BR>
who in command.  I used to go crazy watching the show as half the bridge<BR>
staff gave orders to the other.   And my favorite peeve.  I would have<BR>
'arranged' a 'tragic airlock accident' for the ships counselor (How PC -- ok<BR>
crew let's all 'relate') right after the first time she announced "Captain,<BR>
I sense you're frightened/unsure/etc" right in front of the crew.  Yeah, you<BR>
may be scared sh*tless, but if the crew ever knows this, you are in deep<BR>
trouble.  It is a belief of the touchee-feeliee 70s that people need to<BR>
share their feelings to be all happy and well adjusted-like.  Thankfully,<BR>
this never made it into the military.<BR>
>><BR>
THANK YOU!!!!<BR>
<BR>
THANK YOU!!!!<BR>
<BR>
DOUMO ARIGATOU GOZAIMASHITA!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
And you thought we didn't agree on much, Tod.<BR>
<BR>
::Kiri shivers to shake off the clawing spider legs feeling right between<BR>
her shoulder blades she gets when she thinks about this::<BR>
<BR>
You know, I don't like it when people do this to me in front of other people<BR>
in real life, and I'm NOT a military person, just an ordinary grrl with an<BR>
ordinary "tatemae" (social face) who doesn't choose to share her innermost<BR>
feelings with the world, and certainly not when she's supposed to be leading<BR>
other people.  I've been a leader in several non-military groups and you<BR>
have to keep your cool.  To lose your cool as a military leader... well, one<BR>
of my BF's is an SDF guy and this just absolutely makes him crazy too.<BR>
<BR>
>>"Lt, we are boxed in on three side, ammo's getting low, and relief won't<BR>
be here for three days"<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Sir, you seem a bit stressed.  Maybe you should talk about it, get it out<BR>
in the open.  Men! everyone gather for a group hug"<BR>
>><BR>
BLAM!!!!  BLAM!!!  BLAM!!!<BR>
<BR>
::captain looks down at pale grey smear of ship's counselor::<BR>
<BR>
"Talk about therapy-- man! I feel better already!"<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:27:20 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 10:49 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/8/00 9:37 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> At 08:01 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>> My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the cockpit with<BR>
>>> modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red sunbursts on the wings and<BR>
>> fuselage.<BR>
> <BR>
> FW-190 please. Or, just to raise some hackles, perhaps a B-29 for a goodwill<BR>
> trip to Southeast Asia<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
OK, right after posted this I thought better, so sorry to all who are<BR>
offended.  Still like the B-29, though<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:14:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:25 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>And my favorite peeve.  I would have 'arranged' a 'tragic airlock accident'<BR>
>for the ships counselor (How PC -- ok crew let's all 'relate') right after<BR>
>the first time she announced "Captain, I sense you're frightened/unsure/etc"<BR>
>right in front of the crew.  <BR>
<BR>
Not to start yet another off-topic thread, but this never happened.  In<BR>
fact, whenever Troi needed to chide the Captain about his emotional level,<BR>
she made a point of speking to him away from the bridge.<BR>
<BR>
IMO, having an officer on the bridge who's sole duty is to monitor the<BR>
emotional stability of the officers who control weaponry that can devastate<BR>
planets is a good thing.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:43:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
My favorite had to be when Picard was sent to spy on the Cardassians during<BR>
a war scare and was captured. Meanwhile, another Captain was put in command<BR>
of the Enterprise. He immediately order Riker to reorganize the crew,<BR>
dividing them up to add another watch. When he asks Riker the next day if it<BR>
was finished, Riker says he didn't want to do it because it would upset the<BR>
crew members in their routine so he didn't do it.<BR>
A direct order.<BR>
In the middle of a war alert.<BR>
And instead of phasering the punk down where he stood, he just sends him to<BR>
the brig so Geordi can tell him in a few days that Riker is the best shuttle<BR>
pilot around and the only with a chance of doing some fancy flying to save<BR>
the ship.<BR>
And then he goes and asks Riker to fly the mission!<BR>
And Riker says he's lucky he asked because he wouldn't have done it if<BR>
ordered.<BR>
And they gave this two-bit punk a ship later on?!?!?<BR>
They should have put a transporter into overdrive making enough clones of<BR>
him to be executed for such nonsense.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:08:40 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 11:43 AM, Samuel D. Weiss at samwise1@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My favorite had to be when Picard was sent to spy on the Cardassians during<BR>
> a war scare and was captured. Meanwhile, another Captain was put in command<BR>
> of the Enterprise. He immediately order Riker to reorganize the crew,<BR>
> dividing them up to add another watch. When he asks Riker the next day if it<BR>
> was finished, Riker says he didn't want to do it because it would upset the<BR>
> crew members in their routine so he didn't do it.<BR>
> A direct order.<BR>
> In the middle of a war alert.<BR>
> And instead of phasering the punk down where he stood, he just sends him to<BR>
> the brig so Geordi can tell him in a few days that Riker is the best shuttle<BR>
> pilot around and the only with a chance of doing some fancy flying to save<BR>
> the ship.<BR>
> And then he goes and asks Riker to fly the mission!<BR>
> And Riker says he's lucky he asked because he wouldn't have done it if<BR>
> ordered.<BR>
> And they gave this two-bit punk a ship later on?!?!?<BR>
> They should have put a transporter into overdrive making enough clones of<BR>
> him to be executed for such nonsense.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
I suppose this sort of behavior is normal in Hollywood.  As my old DI used<BR>
to say "in battle, death sanctions every fault".<BR>
<BR>
I recall an episode that involved an alternate universe where the Federation<BR>
was at war with the Klingon empire and loosing badly.  Small wonder.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:45:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/8/00 11:14 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:25 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> And my favorite peeve.  I would have 'arranged' a 'tragic airlock accident'<BR>
>> for the ships counselor (How PC -- ok crew let's all 'relate') right after<BR>
>> the first time she announced "Captain, I sense you're frightened/unsure/etc"<BR>
>> right in front of the crew.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not to start yet another off-topic thread, but this never happened.  In<BR>
> fact, whenever Troi needed to chide the Captain about his emotional level,<BR>
> she made a point of speking to him away from the bridge.<BR>
<BR>
OK, I have to check up on this.  But I remember very clearly Riker remarking<BR>
that a commanding officer (Picard or a temp?) "was very confident">  Our<BR>
favorite councilor replied "no, he's really scared".  Thanks, for sharing.<BR>
I'm sure we all feel much better.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMO, having an officer on the bridge who's sole duty is to monitor the<BR>
> emotional stability of the officers who control weaponry that can devastate<BR>
> planets is a good thing.<BR>
<BR>
We don't seem to need this for Ballistic Missile Subs.  Though I guess you<BR>
might make the argument that political officers in the Soviet fleet<BR>
performed this role.<BR>
<BR>
And war requires individual to act outside of the norms of society.  Most<BR>
people would argue that willfully killing large numbers of people,<BR>
destroying ships and cities IS the sign of an unstable mind.<BR>
<BR>
War requires the participants to do unpleasant things.  If we include an<BR>
officer who's duty is to essentially 'question' a captain's orders, what<BR>
will this do to morale?  How will this effect the ships ability to function,<BR>
and for orders to be obey RIGHT NOW, not subject to a moral debate.  Yes,<BR>
subordinates should be cognizant of the actions they perform. But they must<BR>
have faith that their commander knows what he is doing.<BR>
<BR>
Just the very presence of an officer who sole duty monitor senior officers<BR>
undermines this.  That is one of the duties of the captain and the other<BR>
officers, who are, IMHO, in a much better position to appreciate the dangers<BR>
and pitfalls of the situation.  Screen and evaluate officers, yes. Have<BR>
monitors watch them on duty?  No.  We don't put psychologists into silos.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I can't believe I'm arguing with Doug while Kiri agrees" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:26:40 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Fusion Reactor Bombs<BR>
<BR>
At 11:50 PM -0800 7/7/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>  on 7/6/00 6:42 PM, Bolie Williams IV at bolie@io.com wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>  A fusion power plant would be very difficult to turn into a bomb.<BR>
>>>  Only a pulsed fusion plant would even be able to be turned into a<BR>
>>>  bomb and then it probably wouldn't be very powerful.<BR>
>><BR>
>>  Please define powerful. Or not very powerful.<BR>
><BR>
>See my post. A 10 gigawatt reactor is likely to "explode" with as<BR>
>little as the force of 2.5 kilograms of TNT. A pulse fusion reactor<BR>
>isn't practical for a shipboard powerplant, though it could work as a<BR>
>drive once you are in space. That might get up to blockbuster levels of<BR>
>energy release (say a couple of tons of TNT).<BR>
<BR>
A pulse power plant could be just fine as a power reactor as far<BR>
as we know.  I would think that if you used little deuterium pellets<BR>
and pulsed your reactions at 60 Hz, you could possibly generate<BR>
AC directly.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, "pulse" can also refer to a tokomak reactor that pulses.<BR>
<BR>
Bolie IV<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:34:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
<BR>
I'm a BIG fan of the P-61 Night Fight......<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
> >>> My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the<BR>
cockpit with<BR>
> >>> modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >> I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red sunbursts on the wings<BR>
and<BR>
> >> fuselage.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > FW-190 please. Or, just to raise some hackles, perhaps a B-29 for a<BR>
goodwill<BR>
> > trip to Southeast Asia<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> OK, right after posted this I thought better, so sorry to all who are<BR>
> offended.  Still like the B-29, though<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:32:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>Let me know how to make an Electric car do it *without* adding lots of<BR>
>explosives.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Easy, overload the Electric Car's Battery.  Used to do it with 9 volt<BR>
batteries all the time.  Just hook up the + to the - without any resistance<BR>
& the battery will go "boom".<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:38:27 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Not so minor detail. How would you know where it *was*?<BR>
<BR>
Deckplans, combined with reports from my marines who are fighting for<BR>
control, should help me deduce it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:12:00 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh yeah, a note on arctic camoflauge. We learned the hard way that you<BR>
> *don't* wash white items in modern detergents if you intend to use them as<BR>
> camouflage. You see, the "brighteners" make them faintly *purple* and they<BR>
> stand out like a sore thumb against snow.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, they flourese (sp) under UV light, which snow reflects<BR>
wonderfully (as any skier who's been careless with the sunscreen will<BR>
tell you).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The substances in question are called "optical brighteners" I can get you<BR>
some of the peculiars regarding them on Monday if you are interested, the<BR>
info is at my office.  They are florescent dyes that are added to laundry<BR>
detergents to "make your whites whiter and your brights brighter".  The are<BR>
occasionally used as dye tracers to determine ground water flow.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:32:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : EMP weapons <BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid that I may have missed something on this posting but did anyone<BR>
comment on a modern EMP device supposedly developed and tested in Europe<BR>
which is intended to be used to stop fleeing cars in car chases?  My<BR>
understanding is that it is directional, employed from a helicopter and<BR>
"fries the chips" used in the ignition systems of modern autos.  I heard<BR>
about it second or third hand so I don't know of it's "pie in the sky" or<BR>
real.<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2740<BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2741<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
RE: EMP Weapons<BR>
Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
RE: Fusion Reactor Bombs<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: EMP Weapons<BR>
Traveller XML<BR>
RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Re : Radiation exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Gurps sourcebook: Miles Vorkosigan!<BR>
Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:52:56 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Good point, hadn't thought of that.  Too bad there isn't a really<BR>
>> powerful energy source handy to drive a small-volume, high-pressure <BR>
>> air pump.  :-)<BR>
><BR>
>The problem is that high pressure valves, tanking, and piping are<BR>
>rather touchy.<BR>
<BR>
Wow...Leonard, once you get something in your mind as a problem, <BR>
you certainly like to keep it there. <G><BR>
<BR>
If you're building grav vehicles and the compact engines necessary to<BR>
go with them, there ought to be enough materials science available to <BR>
handle a reasonably reliable seal-breaker system.  Even a rack of <BR>
underbelly-mounted light concussion charges should serve the purpose,<BR>
if you wanted to go a simpler route -  as well as being available to make <BR>
overruns of infantry positions even more effective.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:52:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
From: richardp <BR>
>     FWIW, I don't remember any mention of boarding tactics in Thucydides <BR>
> or any other source on the Peloponnesian War, and the Romans seem to have<BR>
> only used them for the First Punic War -- after they'd gotten the chance <BR>
> to build a decent-sized navy and train the crews properly, they used the <BR>
> same ramming tactics as everyone else around them.<BR>
<BR>
Try Book I [49] in Thucydides.<BR>
<BR>
Also:  Cassius Dio, The Roman History, Book 50 [32] - the Battle of Actium.<BR>
<BR>
I couldn't find an obvious Punic War reference - I didn't try too hard.<BR>
<BR>
I should point out that I am not claiming that these tactics represent a<BR>
different tactical doctrine in any modern sense.  There is no fixed<BR>
separation between the two tactics:  all fleets attempted to ram, and all<BR>
fleets attempted to board - in very nearly every battle.<BR>
<BR>
The difference is one of emphasis:  some fleets were more maneuverable,<BR>
while others had more marines.  Their tactics reflected this.<BR>
<BR>
You are correct that the use of devices like the Corvus was a temporary<BR>
stop-gap measure, and that they reverted to conventional tactics as soon as<BR>
they could - but the big advantage the Romans had everyone else was stacks<BR>
and stacks of legionaries - and they used them.<BR>
<BR>
OBTRAV:  We don't actually know much about Imperial naval tactics.  High<BR>
Guard is highly abstract, while Battle Rider is very complex, and probably<BR>
doesn't get played much.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 07:49:28 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: RE: EMP Weapons<BR>
<BR>
I have to ask, is there such a thing as a flux capacitor?<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:31:28 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser<BR>
<BR>
> From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
> Subject: Re: Not a Famile Spofulam Laser (was Laser Calculation<BR>
Difficulties)<BR>
><BR>
> I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to go over my calculations.<BR>
> Am I correct, then, in thinking that I basically had everything right, but<BR>
> simply failed to realize that the formulae relating focal array diameter<BR>
> to effective range "expected" array diameters to be provided in meters,<BR>
> but "churned out" effective range values in kilometers?  Convenient, yes,<BR>
> but I really wish the design rules had said this explicitly.<BR>
><BR>
>                                                                - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
Yup. FFS2 has a bunch of problems. Examples, playtesting and proofreading<BR>
would all have been good.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:21:32 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <BR>
> > Sending robots in first might be a good idea.<BR>
> <BR>
><BR>
> Or might not.  The discussion sounds like who/whatever goes in will have<BR>
> to make decisions about when to kill and when to take prisoners.  Robots<BR>
> tend to be poor at making judgement calls.<BR>
> Unless they're infected with one of the more late-generation strains of<BR>
> Virus </heresy>.<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking more along the lines of a dumbot with a human operator.  The<BR>
communications might be a bit tricky.  It saves lives though.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:16:24 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
As part of the development of Esalin for the TML Landgrab, I have the<BR>
following elements planned. Comments are welcome, and in fact, desired.<BR>
<BR>
1. Although Esalin is a rich, non-industrialized, rich planet, with a<BR>
population of about 2 million, it supplies a great deal of the food to the<BR>
high-pop worlds of Riverland, in Zhodani space, as well as Jewell in the 3I.<BR>
Since there are many rich tourists with both time and money to spend, a<BR>
luxury resort and casino, Secrets of the Ancients has recently been opened.<BR>
This resort features the latest in TL15+ technology to provide guests with<BR>
an unforgettable experience. It's sort of like the Luxor or Caesar's Palace<BR>
in Las Vegas, but with an Ancients theme. It's a good place to have<BR>
adventures which might involve technology which is way out of the ordinary,<BR>
almost magical. It's also a very safe place. No firefights here.<BR>
<BR>
2. Due to the volume of data traffic between the Zhodani and the 3I, who use<BR>
mutually unintelligible data communication formats and protocols, LSP<BR>
operates a highly profitable facility called Interchange. At Interchange,<BR>
the data is accepted in one format and resent in the other format. Zillions<BR>
of bits per day are processed by this center. The orbital Interchange<BR>
facility is a natural setting for high-stakes espionage adventures, as<BR>
government and corporate entities try to get access to the data as it is<BR>
processed.<BR>
<BR>
3. Otherwise, Esalin is rather unremarkable. As you leave the major cities,<BR>
the well-maintained roads quickly become single-lane roads, and then finally<BR>
unimproved dirt roads. Large family owned and run farms make up most of the<BR>
rural areas. Both the Zhodani and Imperial military facilities (each<BR>
government has a full-strength division here, per Fifth Frontier War) are<BR>
far from populated areas, with only token offices in the major cities. The<BR>
military bases are far apart, on different continents, so there is little or<BR>
no contact between the different military personnel.<BR>
<BR>
4. The Zhodani government took a great deal of time and effort to build a<BR>
very impressive facility on Esalin. The building is hollowed out of a solid<BR>
piece of black rock, which was formed by fusing some sort of black sand into<BR>
a solid block with special-purpose meson beam construction devices.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 07:41:15 +0100 <BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> As part of the development of Esalin for the TML Landgrab, I<BR>
> have the following elements planned. Comments are welcome, and<BR>
> in fact, desired.<BR>
<BR>
What era are you writing it for?  In CT times I always saw Esalin<BR>
as being a bit like Berlin at the height of the cold war.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:42:02 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fusion Reactor Bombs<BR>
<BR>
Not really a fusion bomb. but how about this, the engineer shuts off the<BR>
safety interlocks, cranks the power plant up past 100% efficiency, closes<BR>
the power plant exhaust port, opens all the life support l-hyd and l-ox<BR>
valves to dump inside the ship (probably via the fuel scoop system) then<BR>
puts the reactor containment field on a timer and leaves in a fast vehicle.<BR>
<BR>
The containment field collapses releasing pressurised fusing hydrogen into<BR>
engineering. The fusion reaction stops immediately but and expanding cloud<BR>
of plasma destroys engineering and then detonates the oxygen/hydrogen<BR>
"atmosphere" blowing the ship apart. Should be good for several city blocks<BR>
at least.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:42:04 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, 8 July 2000 3:14 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is<BR>
> >> a fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing<BR>
> >> to do with availability of supplies.  After a while, some people<BR>
> >> will just go 'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  A safe area where<BR>
> >> crew can rest, tend to bodily functions, and just not smell there<BR>
> >> own sweat for even a brief time would be invaluable.  Without such a<BR>
> >> facility, the crew being will wear out long before his suit does.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Of course, as the commander of the victorious fleet, I would park a<BR>
> > destroyer a few kilometers away from the crippled ship, take <BR>
> careful aim,<BR>
> > and drill a hole in that safe area.  A few of the enemy will die, of<BR>
> > course, but those who don't will be that much more eager to surrender.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not so minor detail. How would you know where it *was*?<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
Isn't that what spies are for?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:56:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: EMP Weapons<BR>
<BR>
Ken J. Kazinski wrote :<BR>
> I have to ask, is there such a thing as a flux capacitor?<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, normally it's called an inductor though.<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:10:13 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
G'day people,<BR>
<BR>
Just updated my Traveller survey DTD, and created a new High Guard ship<BR>
class DTD, both with example XML, available at<BR>
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~frankie/<BR>
<BR>
I'd appreciate comments.<BR>
<BR>
I'm currently working on the UI for a Java sector browser based around the<BR>
Survey DTD, using the Xerxes XML parser and the Swing classes. Once I have<BR>
it doing more than just displaying the known space map and the tree, I'll<BR>
update that as well (the one on the page only shows the tree to system<BR>
level).<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Useful Prisoners (was: Re: Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 11:13, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, yes, if you want to know how to field strip an enemy's weapon, or<BR>
> find out its strengths and weaknesses, you interrogate an enemy Grunt. If<BR>
> you want to know where they intend to attack next, which units are<BR>
> mobilising in the rear areas, which units have the weakest morale etc, you<BR>
> ask the more senior officers. <BR>
<BR>
And if you want to know what's really going on you find a Sergeant <BR>
Major.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 10:16, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Grunts have a history of being sent into danger for specific<BR>
> objectives, including intelligence data.  Why should the future <BR>
> be any different?<BR>
<BR>
It won't be. As a result half the time the grunts (well their Ops <BR>
commanders anyway) will refuse to go in after some intell types day-<BR>
dream. This is madening if you (the intell type) have all this <BR>
circumstantail evidence of something and all you need is a patrol to go <BR>
out and get confirmation and your request for said patrol is turned <BR>
down because it's a waste of resources - "not enough "evidence" to <BR>
justify the risk, you know". Ops doesn't like it much when you say "I <BR>
told you so" later, either (especially if you're a Lance Corporal and <BR>
they're a Major). It happens a fair bit on excercise, and I'm told it <BR>
happens in war-time, too.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian in Space (was Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited)<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 9:17, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > If you yell for help within 100D of a major world there's a good chance<BR>
> > there's something in firing range of whatever's hastling you :)<BR>
> > Therefore you won't get hastled.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Sorry, variance in what 'major world' means.  I should say 'world that<BR>
> isn't a spec on the map'.  Basically, worlds which are pop-7+, TL 9+, and<BR>
> port A-C.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah okay, that makes a fair bit of difference. Now you'll only get <BR>
hastled for an hour or so after you scream for help. I imagine that the <BR>
open line will quite often be "Don;t even think of calling for help - <BR>
we've got a 500kt det laser with your name on it over here."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:17 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 23:07, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <BR>
> > Actually Classical Greek ship weapons were horrendously destructive -<BR>
> > they just had a short range. <BR>
> ....<BR>
> > Boarding is definately a post-ram idea, mainly from the age of sail,<BR>
> > where the chance of actually sinking an enemy with cannon-fire was<BR>
> practically nil.<BR>
> <BR>
> Not quite.  Even in the "classical" ramming periods, most fleets relied<BR>
> more on boarding tactics.  Ramming required highly trained crews, in a<BR>
> state of fitness that tended to be unsustainable over a fairly lengthy<BR>
> campaign.  (That's not to say the rams were unimportant - it's just that<BR>
> they were relatively secondary.)<BR>
> <BR>
> Basically, people like the Athenians and Carthaginians used ram tactics:<BR>
> people like the Spartans and Romans used boarding tactics.  Guess who won<BR>
> the Peloponesian and Punic Wars?<BR>
<BR>
By the end of the Pelloponesian war the Spartans had a darn good navy, <BR>
with a lot of skilled oarsmen in it (many of them Athenians).<BR>
<BR>
Also after the 1st Punic war the Romans quite quickly reverted to <BR>
standard tactics, if only because the corvus boarding system they used <BR>
made ships top heavy and even more prone to sinking than they already <BR>
were.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Fw: Phoenix: Soviet Armored Shield for Phoenix Command<BR>
<BR>
On 7 Jul 00, at 23:02, Alan Bradley wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oh, and an idle thought:  what proportion of mercenary units are basically<BR>
> fairly lightly equipped?  What happens when they run into opponents with<BR>
> adequate artillery?  (I mean *really* adequate - lots and lots and lots of<BR>
> it.)<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, have really adequate ammo stocks and resupply, which <BR>
usually limits artillery a lot more than shortages of guns.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:20:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 8 Jul 00, at 14:51, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
> > > > Disgusting habit, leaving it out, I can only assume that the Aussies<BR>
> > > > have infiltrated our Armed Forces.<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
> > > inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
> ><BR>
> > You obviously haven't studied the history of the British Empire, you<BR>
> > untidy slob !<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <grin - just in case><BR>
> > Frankie<BR>
> <BR>
> Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
> (Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm. It just occured to me that the German Army (both WWI Imperial and <BR>
WWII Nazi) looked pretty smart, and they didn't do too badly.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:46:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Aircraft(was: Silly weapons question)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/8/00 10:49 AM, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> on 7/8/00 9:37 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> At 08:01 AM 7/8/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>>>> My dream is to build/restore a Fokker D-7 2 seater - outfit the cockpit <BR>
> with<BR>
>>>> modern nav stuff - and taxi around SEATAC with goggles and scarf.<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red sunbursts on the wings <BR>
> and<BR>
>>> fuselage.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> FW-190 please. Or, just to raise some hackles, perhaps a B-29 for a <BR>
> goodwill<BR>
>> trip to Southeast Asia<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> OK, right after posted this I thought better, so sorry to all who are<BR>
> offended.  Still like the B-29, though<BR>
<BR>
I've mentioned wanting to build a Me-263(?) Komet, but using a modern<BR>
engine that uses more reasonable fuels (say LOX and RP-1 kerosene) and<BR>
does re-starts better. Alas, I'd likely never qualify to *fly* the<BR>
damned thing. Still...<BR>
<BR>
"Tower, this is Experimental-9999, requesting clearance to flight level<BR>
 400."<BR>
"X-9999, you haven't even left the runway yet..."<BR>
"Tower, from Runaway to that flight level is 60 seconds for this bird..."<BR>
<BR>
It'd also be fun to "greet" the Confederate Air Force types when they<BR>
came up for the Airshow. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:55:13 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Let me know how to make an Electric car do it *without* adding lots of<BR>
>>explosives.<BR>
><BR>
>     Easy, overload the Electric Car's Battery.  Used to do it with 9 volt<BR>
> batteries all the time.  Just hook up the + to the - without any resistance<BR>
> & the battery will go "boom".<BR>
<BR>
That's because 9v batteries are designed for *low* current use.<BR>
*Regular* car batteries have something approaching a dead short every<BR>
time you start them. A real short rarely cases them to explode, though<BR>
it may *melt* whatewver you shorted them with.<BR>
<BR>
Batteries for electric cars will be even *more* immune to that sort of<BR>
treatment. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:43:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Radiation exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> The LD50 dose won't even *incapacitiate* for hours.<BR>
>> As I recall, the "quickly incapacitate"<BR>
>> value (ie near immediate onset of CN syndrome) is something above<BR>
>> 10,000 REM.                                       <BR>
><BR>
> 10000 rem is the correct threshold, but :-<BR>
> <Harrison's mode><BR>
> At doses in excess of 100 Gy (greys) [~10000 rem with QF of 1, or 100 <BR>
> sieverts<BR>
> (Sv)] to the total body, death usually occurs 24<BR>
> to 48 h later from neurologic and cardiovascular failure. This is known<BR>
> as the cerebrovascular syndrome.<BR>
> </Harrison's mode><BR>
><BR>
> It takes a little while for the inflammatory arteritis to peak and<BR>
> smother the brain, hence the 24-28 hours. It could take as long as a<BR>
> day to slip into that irreversible* coma.<BR>
><BR>
> 2-8 Gy bone marrow suppression - 'haemopoietic syndrome'<BR>
> 5-12 Gy gut suppression - 'gastrointestinal syndrome'<BR>
><BR>
> * at tech levels below High Stellar.<BR>
<BR>
Ok, so what's the dosage for incapacitation in under an hour?<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that the dosage for incapacition on significantly shorter<BR>
timescales than *that* amount to "cooking" the person.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:58:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:31 PM 7/7/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> And remember, the tax covers just that item, so if you use your nuke up,<BR>
>>> you'll have to pay the tax again for the next one.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Oh, I'm not planning on using it up. <BR>
><BR>
> If you ever come down here to visit, remember that it is a crime to bring,<BR>
> or detonate, a nuclear weapon in the People's Republic of Berkeley.  $50<BR>
> fine.<BR>
<BR>
If that's *really* the law, check out the *exact* definition of<BR>
"nuclear weapon". If there's some sufficiently silly way to meet the<BR>
definition and still be legal elsewhere, I'd be tempted. It'd be<BR>
*worth* the $50 fine.<BR>
<BR>
"What's this note here under "criminal history" on the application form?"<BR>
<BR>
"Oh, I was convicted of possesion of a nuclear weapon..."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:02:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> Good point, hadn't thought of that.  Too bad there isn't a really<BR>
>>> powerful energy source handy to drive a small-volume, high-pressure <BR>
>>> air pump.  :-)<BR>
>><BR>
>>The problem is that high pressure valves, tanking, and piping are<BR>
>>rather touchy.<BR>
><BR>
> Wow...Leonard, once you get something in your mind as a problem, <BR>
> you certainly like to keep it there. <G><BR>
<BR>
No, I just like to point out that "easy answers" usually *aren't*.<BR>
<BR>
It's occured to me that high pressure air, and all the organics in soil<BR>
might be a bit explosive. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:12:53 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Gurps sourcebook: Miles Vorkosigan!<BR>
<BR>
According to a post on another mailing list, SJG has the rights for<BR>
Bujold's SF universe that has Miles and all his friends. And expect to<BR>
release the sourcebook early next year!<BR>
<BR>
I'm already thinking about what it would take to cross that with GURPS<BR>
Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
God, just *think* of the "fun" if your PCs run into the "Chance<BR>
brothers" <eg><BR>
<BR>
Or if they get "involved" in a Dendarii Mercenaries mission. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:09:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: looking for players and GM<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Was written:<BR>
><BR>
>> Oh yeah, a note on arctic camoflauge. We learned the hard way that you<BR>
>> *don't* wash white items in modern detergents if you intend to use them as<BR>
>> camouflage. You see, the "brighteners" make them faintly *purple* and they<BR>
>> stand out like a sore thumb against snow.<BR>
><BR>
> Yeah, they flourese (sp) under UV light, which snow reflects<BR>
> wonderfully (as any skier who's been careless with the sunscreen will<BR>
> tell you).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> The substances in question are called "optical brighteners" I can get you<BR>
> some of the peculiars regarding them on Monday if you are interested, the<BR>
> info is at my office.  They are florescent dyes that are added to laundry<BR>
> detergents to "make your whites whiter and your brights brighter".  The are<BR>
> occasionally used as dye tracers to determine ground water flow.<BR>
<BR>
Any of them safe for food use? Other than Tonic Water, I have yet to<BR>
find a fluoresecent substance that can be used for "interesting" food<BR>
or drink at cons and Halloween parties.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:46:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>> Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is<BR>
>>>> a fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing<BR>
>>>> to do with availability of supplies.  After a while, some people<BR>
>>>> will just go 'buggers', being trapped in a suit.  A safe area where<BR>
>>>> crew can rest, tend to bodily functions, and just not smell there<BR>
>>>> own sweat for even a brief time would be invaluable.  Without such a<BR>
>>>> facility, the crew being will wear out long before his suit does.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Of course, as the commander of the victorious fleet, I would park a<BR>
>>> destroyer a few kilometers away from the crippled ship, take<BR>
>>> careful aim, and drill a hole in that safe area.  A few of the<BR>
>>> enemy will die, of course, but those who don't will be that much<BR>
>>> more eager to surrender.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Not so minor detail. How would you know where it *was*?<BR>
>> <BR>
> Isn't that what spies are for?<BR>
<BR>
Since such an area *won't* be set up until *after* the battle, your<BR>
spies aren't of any use. The location will depend a lot on what damage<BR>
occured where. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2741<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2742</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2742<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
PO and Councilor (was: Symptom of Age)<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Fusion Reactor<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: MoH<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (Attn: Cheryl)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
Re: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Silly Aircraft<BR>
High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
RE: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 04:43:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> As part of the development of Esalin for the TML Landgrab, I have the<BR>
> following elements planned. Comments are welcome, and in fact, desired.<BR>
><BR>
> 1. Although Esalin is a rich, non-industrialized, rich planet, with a<BR>
> population of about 2 million, it supplies a great deal of the food to the<BR>
> high-pop worlds of Riverland, in Zhodani space, as well as Jewell in the 3I.<BR>
> Since there are many rich tourists with both time and money to spend, a<BR>
> luxury resort and casino, Secrets of the Ancients has recently been opened.<BR>
> This resort features the latest in TL15+ technology to provide guests with<BR>
> an unforgettable experience. It's sort of like the Luxor or Caesar's Palace<BR>
> in Las Vegas, but with an Ancients theme. It's a good place to have<BR>
> adventures which might involve technology which is way out of the ordinary,<BR>
> almost magical. It's also a very safe place. No firefights here.<BR>
<BR>
I bet they *import* as much TL16 (or even *17*) tech as they can from<BR>
the Darrians, and anyplace else they can. Even if the source is<BR>
*sectors* away. I seem to recall the pre-Rebellion CT/MT Imperium<BR>
having a few TL 16 worlds, and there being a TL 17 *somewhere*. <BR>
<BR>
And I bet they import *security* related tech as well as "wow the<BR>
guests" stuff.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:44:41 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: PO and Councilor (was: Symptom of Age)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tod Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
> > IMO, having an officer on the bridge who's sole duty is to monitor the<BR>
> > emotional stability of the officers who control weaponry that can devastate<BR>
> > planets is a good thing.<BR>
> <BR>
> We don't seem to need this for Ballistic Missile Subs.  Though I guess you<BR>
> might make the argument that political officers in the Soviet fleet<BR>
> performed this role.<BR>
<BR>
  ObTrav (TNE) : I handwaved that one of the major reasons the Gushemege<BR>
  Merchantile Guild became the major cartell between the Islands and the<BR>
  Rim, was the decission of the "Last Sane", to require a human Councilor<BR>
  and a human Political Officer, on board of any ship in the fleet. This<BR>
  requirement was enforced by bodyswap of the POs anytime ships of "Last<BR>
  Sane" meet each other.<BR>
<BR>
  So we have an officer, who's main goal is to monitor emotional stabilty of<BR>
  the sophont crew. And a PO who's main goal is to check conditions on board<BR>
  of the other ship or starport, !before! docking maneuvers are attempt.<BR>
<BR>
  The requirement of bodyswap became 'law' on many starports, even for<BR>
  completely human crewed ships, when the "Last Sane" deceided to regroup<BR>
  under the name "Moot of Ports", to reflect the migration from a wandering<BR>
  fleet of sentient ships to a society controling orbital production and<BR>
  repair capacity.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:40:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>>>>> Anyone who has ever worn MOPP4 or other CBW gear knows that there is<BR>
>>>>> a fatigue factor with wearing protective equipment that has nothing<BR>
>>>>> to do with availability of supplies.  After a while, some people<BR>
>>>>> will just go 'buggers', being trapped in a suit.<BR>
<BR>
My reply:<BR>
<BR>
Same for a level A "Moon Suit" used in Hazmat incidents.  Self contained,<BR>
breathing canned air and sealed with positive air flow such that nothing can<BR>
enter and very little can exit.  All your body heat and moisture is sealed<BR>
in.   In five minutes it's a sauna even on a mild day.  Like CBR you go from<BR>
"hot zone" to "decon" to "safe zone" to exit the site.  Interesting point,<BR>
you have from 3 to 5 minutes of air trapped in the suit when your air supply<BR>
is exhausted due to the fact that the suite inflates around you such that<BR>
you look like the Pillsbury doughboy.  Is that true for any of the Traveller<BR>
environmental suits?  I seem to recall at least one hard suit intended for<BR>
vac and harsh environment work using waldos which might fit the bill, does<BR>
anyone else?<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:31:02 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactor<BR>
<BR>
Moin Bolie Williams,<BR>
<BR>
> >See my post. A 10 gigawatt reactor is likely to "explode" with as<BR>
> >little as the force of 2.5 kilograms of TNT. A pulse fusion reactor<BR>
> >isn't practical for a shipboard powerplant, though it could work as a<BR>
> >drive once you are in space. That might get up to blockbuster levels of<BR>
> >energy release (say a couple of tons of TNT).<BR>
> <BR>
> A pulse power plant could be just fine as a power reactor as far<BR>
> as we know.  I would think that if you used little deuterium pellets<BR>
> and pulsed your reactions at 60 Hz, you could possibly generate<BR>
> AC directly.<BR>
<BR>
  IMTU: Fusion Handwaving<BR>
<BR>
  If you look at my deckplans, I envision Traveller fusion reactors as<BR>
  being of the Wendelstein type.<BR>
<BR>
      http://traveller.copyleft.de/shipyard/BR-10-300-Eman.html<BR>
      http://traveller.copyleft.de/shipyard/RA-12-540-Nagast.html<BR>
<BR>
  The Wendelstein looks like a donut from the outside, and has an infinite<BR>
  stream of plasma enclosed in a 'winding stairs' pattern.<BR>
<BR>
  The Wendelstein is burning LHy with a C-N-O chain katalisator. This is<BR>
  imho the most likely reaction based on LHy. Other low energy reactions<BR>
  require would deuterium or tritium, which is not named as powerplant fuel<BR>
  in the Traveller manuals.<BR>
<BR>
  The plasma stream has a density of 10^22 particles per cubic centimeter is<BR>
  preheated heated to 30 millionen degree by syncron lasers in H and C<BR>
  frequencies and ignites to 150 million degree by injection of atomar<BR>
  hydrogen at 55 keV. <BR>
<BR>
  Electric energy is produced by divertor deflecting the outer plasma<BR>
  skin to plumplyplates. This divertor is also cleaning the plasma, and<BR>
  isolating cooler (100 million degree) plasma from the center (250<BR>
  million degree).<BR>
<BR>
> Of course, "pulse" can also refer to a tokomak reactor that pulses.<BR>
<BR>
  In real live: I cant think that the Tokomak princip will ever produce<BR>
  a usefull reactor. The main reason why US still susidy Tokamak studies,<BR>
  is that they want a small military usefull reactor. The Wendelstein<BR>
  pricip is known to produce constant energy (AS 7/X has to shut down<BR>
  after 10 seconds because of cooling problems - ASDUP (divertor)<BR>
  improved this to about 18 seconds ;-) but is also known for realy<BR>
  big reactors. The small Wendelstein in Garchinger has diameter 15m, <BR>
  a height 4 meters and a mass 550 tons, and does !not! produce energy<BR>
  because, it was not designed to produce it. The new one in Greifswald<BR>
  will have a diameter of 35m to produce electric energy. <BR>
<BR>
  This kind of reactor wont be for any use on board of a U-Boat, so it<BR>
  does'nt have military founding.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:23:24 -0500<BR>
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
At 3:55 AM -0800 7/9/00, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>That's because 9v batteries are designed for *low* current use.<BR>
>*Regular* car batteries have something approaching a dead short every<BR>
>time you start them. A real short rarely cases them to explode, though<BR>
>it may *melt* whatewver you shorted them with.<BR>
><BR>
>Batteries for electric cars will be even *more* immune to that sort of<BR>
>treatment.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, if you carefully charge them up, you can use car batteries to<BR>
fire a railgun without damaging the batteries.<BR>
- -- <BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Bolie Williams IV<BR>
bolie@io.com<BR>
http://www.io.com/~bolie/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 08:41:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
At 03:58 AM 7/9/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>If that's *really* the law, check out the *exact* definition of<BR>
>"nuclear weapon". If there's some sufficiently silly way to meet the<BR>
>definition and still be legal elsewhere, I'd be tempted. It'd be<BR>
>*worth* the $50 fine.<BR>
<BR>
I was mistaken, it is $500.<BR>
<BR>
The act is: Chapter 12.90 NUCLEAR FREE BERKELEY ACT, and also prohibites<BR>
just about anything having to do with nuclear power.<BR>
<BR>
>"What's this note here under "criminal history" on the application form?"<BR>
><BR>
>"Oh, I was convicted of possesion of a nuclear weapon..."<BR>
<BR>
<Berkeley police office lecturing several youths at a traffic stop.><BR>
<BR>
"Kids, what is wrong with you?  You know we don't allow nukes in Berkeley!<BR>
You turn this thing around and take that warhead back to Oakland, where it<BR>
belongs."<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:45:36 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>"What's this note here under "criminal history" on the application form?"<BR>
><BR>
>"Oh, I was convicted of possesion of a nuclear weapon..."<BR>
<BR>
 Having it be a misdemeanor (vs felony) would be even more worth it, but I <BR>
suspect that the PRB wouldn't be so obliging...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 09:06:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
<BR>
At 11:45 AM 7/9/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Having it be a misdemeanor (vs felony) would be even more worth it, but I <BR>
>suspect that the PRB wouldn't be so obliging...<BR>
<BR>
But if it is a felony, then you'd be imprisioned, which in Berkeley means<BR>
that within three days you'd have your very own movement, complete with<BR>
teach-ins and political actions demanding you be released.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: A world were liberal thoughts have gone to an extreme, and the<BR>
worst aspects of the PRB or England under the "looney left" have come to<BR>
pass.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 18:23:55 +0200<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
I was just going through some of the canon on the Darrians. Both in the CT<BR>
Spinwardmarches setting and in the regency source book the Darrians have<BR>
bona fide TL 16 solar flare techonology. Their relative smallness is put<BR>
down to the fact that it took them a while to recover from their little<BR>
'incident' with the flare and by the time they were spacefaring again all<BR>
the land was grabbed by others.<BR>
<BR>
Now apart from being really nice about it and not agressing anyone they<BR>
also - for a while - let the swordworlds annex a few planets only to grab<BR>
them back in the 5th frontier war. Somewhere along the way they scared the<BR>
Zhodani by showing them what they could do with the flair. IMHO this doesnt<BR>
make sense (apart from the fact that the Zhodani are smart not to mess with<BR>
the Darrians).<BR>
<BR>
Equip two ships with black spheres, jump to the enemy system near to the sun<BR>
and start the flare. By the time - C-lag permitting - a sensor has alerted<BR>
planetary defences the Darrians are out of there. Bang one planet gone. The<BR>
sworldworlds wouldnt last a week (jump-time!) against the Darrians so WTH<BR>
did they let themselves be pushed over in the first place?<BR>
<BR>
*shrugs*<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Goldblum is often quoted as saying that there is a nice rationalisation<BR>
for everything. I invite you to submit one!<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:48:45 -0500<BR>
From: Nachopete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MoH<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:52:25 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Never underestimate the power of raw courage.<BR>
><BR>
>Concurr. For additional interesting reading, look up the citations for the <BR>
>two MoH's awarded to medical corpsmen during WWII, or the only MoH given to <BR>
>an enlisted air force crewmwmber ("Snuffy" Smith, I think). <BR>
<BR>
Smith was the first but not the only recipient. There were three<BR>
others in WWII and one in Vietnam.<BR>
<BR>
See http://www.au.af.mil/au/cepme/heritage/medhonor/medhonor.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 09:55:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (Attn: Cheryl)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/9/00 6:40 AM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My reply:<BR>
> <BR>
> Same for a level A "Moon Suit" used in Hazmat incidents.  Self contained,<BR>
> breathing canned air and sealed with positive air flow such that nothing can<BR>
> enter and very little can exit.  All your body heat and moisture is sealed<BR>
> in.   In five minutes it's a sauna even on a mild day.  Like CBR you go from<BR>
> "hot zone" to "decon" to "safe zone" to exit the site.  Interesting point,<BR>
> you have from 3 to 5 minutes of air trapped in the suit when your air supply<BR>
> is exhausted due to the fact that the suite inflates around you such that<BR>
> you look like the Pillsbury doughboy.  Is that true for any of the Traveller<BR>
> environmental suits?  I seem to recall at least one hard suit intended for<BR>
> vac and harsh environment work using waldos which might fit the bill, does<BR>
> anyone else?<BR>
> <BR>
> Dan<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
We should have Cheryl post something on this, as she just returned from<BR>
Hazmat training.  You also failed to note that you cannot remove a level A<BR>
Suit by yourself, adding to the claustrophobia factor.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 10:02:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
on 7/7/00 11:58 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
> This assumes that you know that such a safe area exists, where it<BR>
> is, that you can drill to it without too much 'colateral' damage,<BR>
> and that the enemy cannot redeploy.  I'm not saying that it can't<BR>
> work, but boarding may be a more effective option (even if only<BR>
> to locate targets for the destroyer).<BR>
> <BR>
>> And if they still hold out, I'll plug all the holes in the hull and fill<BR>
>> the ship with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and knockout gas.  Anyone who<BR>
>> can't take it any more and rips his helmet off will be rewarded with a<BR>
>> breath of fresh air and a refreshing nap.  My marines can then collect him<BR>
>> at their leisure.<BR>
<BR>
I plug all the holes and fill the ship with HF gas, or some such other that<BR>
will attack vacc suits seals.  I make sure to let the holdouts know before<BR>
hand.  Have they prepped for a corrosive atmosphere like I have?<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 10:41:29 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
This is intended for M1100, pre FFW.<BR>
<BR>
I first thought that Esalin would be like Berlin too. But then I thought<BR>
about a rich, non-industrialized, agricultural planet with only 2 million<BR>
inhabitants. Having only 2 million people to run the entire planet doesn't<BR>
leave much room for big cities with lots of spy stuff going on. And since<BR>
Esalin is balkanized, you have the overhead of running more than one<BR>
government.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, since both governments have a (motorized infantry)<BR>
division there (per FFW), there is probably lots of espionage with a<BR>
military focus. Where else does the 3I have such close access to a Zhodani<BR>
military base?<BR>
<BR>
Even though Esalin is not as well defended as some systems, you still need<BR>
all of the usual sensitive stuff there, like operations plans, crypto keying<BR>
material, etc. This may be the main focus of the spook stuff.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Trevor,<BR>
Peter<BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 11:41 PM<BR>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> As part of the development of Esalin for the TML Landgrab, I<BR>
> have the following elements planned. Comments are welcome, and<BR>
> in fact, desired.<BR>
<BR>
What era are you writing it for?  In CT times I always saw Esalin<BR>
as being a bit like Berlin at the height of the cold war.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, Jul 10 2000 5:35:06 GMT+1100<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote :-<BR>
> To produce immediate incapacitation you need a dose of about 1000 cGy. <BR>
> This guarantees you taking them out in 5-10 minutes, which is quickly<BR>
> enough to be considered "immediate" in a military situation.<BR>
> This is not really much more than the LD50.<BR>
<BR>
<Harrison's mode><BR>
The whole body LD50 at 60 days is 3.25Gy in the absence of intensive<BR>
medical support.<BR>
</Harrison's mode><BR>
<BR>
1000 centiGreys = 10 Gy.<BR>
Bye-bye bone marrow. Gut lining is almost certainly going to go<BR>
(95% confidence intervals stated in another post 5-12Gy).<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure about 5-10 minutes to incapacitation. Nausea<BR>
and vomitting are likely within a few minutes, certain in hours with<BR>
the onset of bloody diarrhoea and other nastiness.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> Ok, so what's the dosage for incapacitation in under an hour?<BR>
> I suspect that the dosage for incapacition on significantly shorter<BR>
> timescales than *that* amount to "cooking" the person.<BR>
The 100Gy value is effectively the LD100 for people.<BR>
I note that this is equal to 10kJ/kg tissue - given the average <BR>
specific heat capacity of tissue (~0.9kcal/degree C/kg), we're already increasing core temps by about 2 degrees C. This is already very close to cooking someone (high fever) ; although if you define the threshold as protein denaturation, then you have to maintain temps over 55 degrees C...<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I can't give you a firm number off of the top of my head.<BR>
(an NBC warfare manual would be useful here).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 12:05:57 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, I can't give you a firm number off of the top of my head.<BR>
> (an NBC warfare manual would be useful here).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The numbers I got were from FM 8-9, NATO Handbook on the Medical Aspects of<BR>
NBC Defensive Operations. I think that the military defines things a bit<BR>
differently than civilian doctors do. Mainly since the military is<BR>
interested in a probability of causing either an incapacitation or a death,<BR>
while doctors are trying to prevent the same. The military definition of<BR>
"incapacitate" may be different than the civilian one also. If you are<BR>
targeting troops, for example, you can be reasonably sure that they will not<BR>
get rapid medical attention after a dose of radiation.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:15:19 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 5:23 PM<BR>
Subject: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I was just going through some of the canon on the Darrians. Both in the CT<BR>
> Spinwardmarches setting and in the regency source book the Darrians have<BR>
> bona fide TL 16 solar flare techonology. Their relative smallness is put<BR>
> down to the fact that it took them a while to recover from their little<BR>
> 'incident' with the flare and by the time they were spacefaring again all<BR>
> the land was grabbed by others.<BR>
><BR>
> Now apart from being really nice about it and not agressing anyone they<BR>
> also - for a while - let the swordworlds annex a few planets only to grab<BR>
> them back in the 5th frontier war. Somewhere along the way they scared the<BR>
> Zhodani by showing them what they could do with the flair. IMHO this<BR>
doesnt<BR>
> make sense (apart from the fact that the Zhodani are smart not to mess<BR>
with<BR>
> the Darrians).<BR>
><BR>
> Equip two ships with black spheres, jump to the enemy system near to the<BR>
sun<BR>
> and start the flare. By the time - C-lag permitting - a sensor has alerted<BR>
> planetary defences the Darrians are out of there. Bang one planet gone.<BR>
The<BR>
> sworldworlds wouldnt last a week (jump-time!) against the Darrians so WTH<BR>
> did they let themselves be pushed over in the first place?<BR>
><BR>
> *shrugs*<BR>
><BR>
> Jeff Goldblum is often quoted as saying that there is a nice<BR>
rationalisation<BR>
> for everything. I invite you to submit one!<BR>
><BR>
> Julius<BR>
<BR>
Because canonically, the Startrigger device is a hoax until the events of<BR>
AM8 (Darrians) just after the Fifth FW. Their earlier demonstrations had<BR>
been rigged, but as the actual demonstrators were unaware of the subterfuge<BR>
the Zhodani Psi's picked up that they truly believed it worked. This<BR>
convinced the Zho's sufficiently that they avoided overtly interfering with<BR>
the Darrians.<BR>
<BR>
Following the events of AM8, the true principles of the Startrigger are<BR>
discovered enabling the Darrians to construct a working version. Be afraid.<BR>
Be very afraid! <g><BR>
<BR>
In any case, IIRC Black Globes are pretty much restricted to Imperial Ships,<BR>
as they are based on a cache of 2000 Ancient Black Globes that have been<BR>
reversed engineered by Imperial Scientists. I think that they are actually<BR>
TL18+ devices that combined with TL15 controls can achieve the canonical<BR>
effects. I don't think that the Imperials can actually produce anything<BR>
beyond limited numbers of very crude copies, that barely work as described.<BR>
I also don't believe that this technology will have been disseminated. IMTU,<BR>
BG's are limited to Imperial Ships in limited numbers, they are not<BR>
available to just anyone with TL15+. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:41:30 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Aircraft<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've mentioned wanting to build a Me-263(?) Komet, <BR>
<BR>
ISTR it's Me-163, but won't put money on it. Me-262 was the incredibly <BR>
cool looking jet interceptor, and 163 the rocket.<BR>
<BR>
> but using a modern<BR>
> engine that uses more reasonable fuels (say LOX and RP-1 kerosene) and<BR>
> does re-starts better. Alas, I'd likely never qualify to *fly* the<BR>
> damned thing. Still...<BR>
<BR>
This is the plane with no landing gear we're talking about. The only<BR>
safe way to land it (for sufficiently small values of "safe") is to <BR>
run it completely out of fuel and dead-stick it in. Even with <BR>
"reasonable" fuels, you'd be insane to try this as a hobby. <BR>
<BR>
The Me-262, now, that might be fun.<BR>
 <BR>
> "Tower, this is Experimental-9999, requesting clearance to flight level<BR>
>  400."<BR>
> "X-9999, you haven't even left the runway yet..."<BR>
> "Tower, from Runaway to that flight level is 60 seconds for this bird..."<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget to declare a fuel emergency before takeoff, as well. I <BR>
can't remember if I read this on TML or elsewhere, but some civilian<BR>
owner of a MiG-21 has to do so - once off the ground, he's got less <BR>
than half an hour of fuel left. Never mind that, unlike your run-of-<BR>
the-mill Cessna, he can get about 300 miles out of that half-hour...<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 13:48:29 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I bet they *import* as much TL16 (or even *17*) tech as they can from<BR>
> the Darrians, and anyplace else they can. Even if the source is<BR>
> *sectors* away. I seem to recall the pre-Rebellion CT/MT Imperium<BR>
> having a few TL 16 worlds, and there being a TL 17 *somewhere*.<BR>
<BR>
According to the statistical summary at<BR>
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this guy? I<BR>
always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status to<BR>
avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these others?<BR>
<BR>
Wow. More checking at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/top_summary.html shows<BR>
that there are 93 TL G and 2 TL H planets in charted space. It looks like<BR>
there may be some seriously mysterious technology at the Secrets of the<BR>
Ancients resort and casino.<BR>
<BR>
The possible availability of extremely high TL stuff is something which I<BR>
have never really considered. If a world rates TL H, it probably has some<BR>
industries where it is actually TL I or higher. These extreme TL planets may<BR>
be the source of many interesting gadgets. I am guessing that the<BR>
intelligence agencies of the big interstellar empires are also big consumers<BR>
of this technology. This advanced technology may also be so important to the<BR>
interstellar governments that these advanced TL places are carefully<BR>
protected and guarded.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the ships that the shipyards at these planets can produce. Maybe the<BR>
TMLer formerly known as BlackICE can show us?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:10:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
IIRC a store chain in MT called G.<BR>
<BR>
It was at better Class A Starports. You can guess what items stocked it's<BR>
shelves. (I usally assumed a 300% markup at least. But if you just MUST have<BR>
that FGMP-16, well there was really no other place to go)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Luther<BR>
Martin<BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 1:48 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I bet they *import* as much TL16 (or even *17*) tech as they can from<BR>
> the Darrians, and anyplace else they can. Even if the source is<BR>
> *sectors* away. I seem to recall the pre-Rebellion CT/MT Imperium<BR>
> having a few TL 16 worlds, and there being a TL 17 *somewhere*.<BR>
<BR>
According to the statistical summary at<BR>
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this guy? I<BR>
always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status to<BR>
avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these others?<BR>
<BR>
Wow. More checking at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/top_summary.html shows<BR>
that there are 93 TL G and 2 TL H planets in charted space. It looks like<BR>
there may be some seriously mysterious technology at the Secrets of the<BR>
Ancients resort and casino.<BR>
<BR>
The possible availability of extremely high TL stuff is something which I<BR>
have never really considered. If a world rates TL H, it probably has some<BR>
industries where it is actually TL I or higher. These extreme TL planets may<BR>
be the source of many interesting gadgets. I am guessing that the<BR>
intelligence agencies of the big interstellar empires are also big consumers<BR>
of this technology. This advanced technology may also be so important to the<BR>
interstellar governments that these advanced TL places are carefully<BR>
protected and guarded.<BR>
<BR>
Imagine the ships that the shipyards at these planets can produce. Maybe the<BR>
TMLer formerly known as BlackICE can show us?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 14:16:34 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
I had a conversation with a friend of mine who works at Argonne National Lab<BR>
which made me think about ship design in Traveller. My friend used to design<BR>
nuclear reactors. With these designs, safety is very important. Because of<BR>
this, they tried to automate lots of critical processes. What they found out<BR>
was that although the automated system works much better than a system with<BR>
a human operator, if something goes wrong, it's more difficult to fix. A<BR>
human operator who keeps making adjustments to a process manually has an<BR>
idea about what's going on, and if something starts to go wrong, he knows<BR>
the history of the system and can more easily correct the problem. On the<BR>
other hand, if a system is automated, whan operators try to make a<BR>
correction, they *don't* know the history of the system, and thus have a<BR>
much harder time understanding and correcting a problem.<BR>
<BR>
So if you have a highly-automated ship in your Traveller game, it will<BR>
probably work great most of the time. But when something goes wrong, it may<BR>
be much harder to correct, and will probably take much longer to correct<BR>
also.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe this is why Traveller has people manning turrets and drive rooms when<BR>
these functions could easily be automated.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:47:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
Frank. I have just about got a W3C Schema ready for library data - I<BR>
intend to do a generic application (browser-based) for adding to and<BR>
using it before I release it, but have a 'minor' <grin> problem that<BR>
I've not been able to solve for the last two weeks (God, I'm getting<BR>
slow). How on Earth do I create a definition for the standard form of<BR>
Imperial Calendar dates (ddd-yyyy) making sure that they have the<BR>
right number of digits and ranges?<BR>
<BR>
I can do the day and the year separately, but can't get the whole<BR>
thing to work. Any help gratefully accepted (please...pretty, pretty<BR>
please...).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Frank G.<BR>
> Pitt<BR>
> Sent: 09 July 2000 11:10<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Traveller XML<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> G'day people,<BR>
><BR>
> Just updated my Traveller survey DTD, and created a new<BR>
> High Guard ship<BR>
> class DTD, both with example XML, available at<BR>
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~frankie/<BR>
><BR>
> I'd appreciate comments.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm currently working on the UI for a Java sector browser<BR>
> based around the<BR>
> Survey DTD, using the Xerxes XML parser and the Swing<BR>
> classes. Once I have<BR>
> it doing more than just displaying the known space map and<BR>
> the tree, I'll<BR>
> update that as well (the one on the page only shows the<BR>
> tree to system<BR>
> level).<BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2742<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2743</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, July 9 2000        Volume 1999 : Number 2743<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Re : EMP weapons <BR>
Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
Re: Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
Re: Silly Aircraft<BR>
Re: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
Re: Traveller XML<BR>
[new subscriber] looking for Traveller activity<BR>
Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding, longish)<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
Modular Shuttle<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:51:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : EMP weapons <BR>
<BR>
Guess who took the advice from the list, along with the New Scientist<BR>
article and built and tried a flux compressor with a standard 9V<BR>
battery and rather poorlu made black powder? Only a tiny thing, with a<BR>
tube just short of two feet long inside a standard 1" plastic plumbing<BR>
pipe wrapped in standard copper thread. Guess who was daft enough to<BR>
set it off up on the moors while listening to his Walkman?<BR>
<BR>
Guess who has a totally bollixed Walkman now. At least I now agree<BR>
that it doesn't take much in the way of a battery to power these<BR>
things. Does anyone have any idea how dangerous these things really<BR>
are?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Daniel<BR>
> Phelps<BR>
> Sent: 09 July 2000 03:32<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Re : EMP weapons<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I'm afraid that I may have missed something on this posting<BR>
> but did anyone<BR>
> comment on a modern EMP device supposedly developed and<BR>
> tested in Europe<BR>
> which is intended to be used to stop fleeing cars in car chases?  My<BR>
> understanding is that it is directional, employed from a<BR>
> helicopter and<BR>
> "fries the chips" used in the ignition systems of modern<BR>
> autos.  I heard<BR>
> about it second or third hand so I don't know of it's "pie<BR>
> in the sky" or<BR>
> real.<BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
> Dan<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:58:04 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, the words 'pry', and 'cold dead fingers' spring to mind ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I see the World Tamers Handbook for sale used occasionally, I'll keep an<BR>
eye out.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/7/00 3:49 PM, johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > As for the mapping, I said nothing 'cause I don't know nothing.<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought I knew something, but I seem to have been mistaken. Typical.<BR>
> <BR>
> > my WBH/WTH/GT FI/GS are all at home, buried under a pile of other stuff.<BR>
> <BR>
> And you probably aren't interested in parting with WBH or WTH, are you? ;)<BR>
> ------------------<BR>
> Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
> BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
> BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:31:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Luther Martin wrote :-<BR>
>> To produce immediate incapacitation you need a dose of about 1000 cGy. <BR>
>> This guarantees you taking them out in 5-10 minutes, which is quickly<BR>
>> enough to be considered "immediate" in a military situation.<BR>
>> This is not really much more than the LD50.<BR>
><BR>
> <Harrison's mode><BR>
> The whole body LD50 at 60 days is 3.25Gy in the absence of intensive<BR>
> medical support.<BR>
> </Harrison's mode><BR>
><BR>
> 1000 centiGreys = 10 Gy.<BR>
> Bye-bye bone marrow. Gut lining is almost certainly going to go<BR>
> (95% confidence intervals stated in another post 5-12Gy).<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure about 5-10 minutes to incapacitation. Nausea<BR>
> and vomitting are likely within a few minutes, certain in hours with<BR>
> the onset of bloody diarrhoea and other nastiness.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
>> Ok, so what's the dosage for incapacitation in under an hour?<BR>
>> I suspect that the dosage for incapacition on significantly shorter<BR>
>> timescales than *that* amount to "cooking" the person.<BR>
> The 100Gy value is effectively the LD100 for people.<BR>
> I note that this is equal to 10kJ/kg tissue - given the average <BR>
> specific heat capacity of tissue (~0.9kcal/degree C/kg), we're already <BR>
> increasing core temps by about 2 degrees C. This is already very close to <BR>
> cooking someone (high fever) ; although if you define the threshold as <BR>
> protein denaturation, then you have to <BR>
> maintain temps over 55 degrees C...<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, I can't give you a firm number off of the top of my head.<BR>
> (an NBC warfare manual would be useful here).<BR>
<BR>
Alas, mine are in storage, or I'd not have needed to ask.<BR>
<BR>
I do seem to recall noting that the lethality curve tended to be such<BR>
that doubling the dose, halved the time to death and vice versa. But<BR>
that's apt to fail at the timescales we are dealing with here.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:34:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/7/00 11:58 AM, Ian Ferguson at ian@vax2.concordia.ca wrote:<BR>
>> This assumes that you know that such a safe area exists, where it<BR>
>> is, that you can drill to it without too much 'colateral' damage,<BR>
>> and that the enemy cannot redeploy.  I'm not saying that it can't<BR>
>> work, but boarding may be a more effective option (even if only<BR>
>> to locate targets for the destroyer).<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> And if they still hold out, I'll plug all the holes in the hull and fill<BR>
>>> the ship with a mixture of oxygen, nitrogen, and knockout gas.  Anyone who<BR>
>>> can't take it any more and rips his helmet off will be rewarded with a<BR>
>>> breath of fresh air and a refreshing nap.  My marines can then collect him<BR>
>>> at their leisure.<BR>
><BR>
> I plug all the holes and fill the ship with HF gas, or some such other that<BR>
> will attack vacc suits seals.  I make sure to let the holdouts know before<BR>
> hand.  Have they prepped for a corrosive atmosphere like I have?<BR>
<BR>
HF isn't nearly as corrosive in the absence of *water*. It'd also tend<BR>
to damage the gear you are interested in *faster* than it damages the<BR>
suits (which are likely to use fluorocarbon plastics in their seals).<BR>
<BR>
Also, where are you going to *get* that much HF? Carrying it on board<BR>
your ship puts *you* in danger. Just think of the fun if the tank gets<BR>
hit during combat.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, HF is *easy* to remove. Just release some metal vapor, and<BR>
you'll wind up with metal fluoride dust, and free hydrogen. <BR>
<BR>
Since a quite useful weapon against boarders in an airless section of a<BR>
ship is a grenade that emits sodium vapor (it plates out as a mirror<BR>
coating on everything in range, including the helmets and suits of the<BR>
boarders), this will be easy to do. <BR>
<BR>
Which reminds me. Is FF&S *1* suitable for designing a grenade like<BR>
that? Or should I just wing it?<BR>
<BR>
Effects of such a grenade are simple. It blinds the attackers, and also<BR>
renders laser pistols/carbines/rifles inoperative by coating the exit<BR>
optics. It also can severely compromise the cooling system of a suit. <BR>
<BR>
The coating also tends to weakly bond metal surfaces together. Worse,<BR>
you *don't* want to just walk into a section that still has atmosphere<BR>
with a fresh coating of this stuff on your suit. Especially if the<BR>
enemy is the one supplying the atmosphere (say, *chlorine* :-)<BR>
<BR>
On the minus side, in a vacuum, the sodium vapor disperses in a<BR>
straight line from the grenade, thus you can be shielded by stuff<BR>
between you and the grenade (like the body bunker).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:55:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>"What's this note here under "criminal history" on the application form?"<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Oh, I was convicted of possesion of a nuclear weapon..."<BR>
><BR>
>  Having it be a misdemeanor (vs felony) would be even more worth it, but I <BR>
> suspect that the PRB wouldn't be so obliging...<BR>
<BR>
Given the size of the fine, I rather expect it to be a "violation", not<BR>
even a misdemeanor. About like a traffic ticket.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:58:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly Aircraft<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I've mentioned wanting to build a Me-263(?) Komet, <BR>
><BR>
> ISTR it's Me-163, but won't put money on it. Me-262 was the incredibly <BR>
> cool looking jet interceptor, and 163 the rocket.<BR>
><BR>
>> but using a modern<BR>
>> engine that uses more reasonable fuels (say LOX and RP-1 kerosene) and<BR>
>> does re-starts better. Alas, I'd likely never qualify to *fly* the<BR>
>> damned thing. Still...<BR>
><BR>
> This is the plane with no landing gear we're talking about. The only<BR>
> safe way to land it (for sufficiently small values of "safe") is to <BR>
> run it completely out of fuel and dead-stick it in. Even with <BR>
> "reasonable" fuels, you'd be insane to try this as a hobby. <BR>
<BR>
You get it *towed* into ther air, just like any other glider and<BR>
*practice*. As I understand, it did ok as a glider, just landed rather<BR>
fast. And it *does* have "landing gear". A skid on the belly. <BR>
<BR>
You land it at a grass strip by preference. <BR>
<BR>
After lots of practice making landings, you can try a flight with fuel.<BR>
And after some practice with powered flight, you can practice takeoffs.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, one *big* advantage of the safer fuels is that you can jettison<BR>
fuel *without* having them turn into a fireball as they mix. <BR>
<BR>
Dump the LOX first, as it's the big hazard. Then dump the kerosene if<BR>
you are really worried.<BR>
<BR>
> The Me-262, now, that might be fun.<BR>
<BR>
Ask Dirk Pitt. :-)<BR>
  <BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:12:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I was just going through some of the canon on the Darrians. Both in the CT<BR>
> Spinwardmarches setting and in the regency source book the Darrians have<BR>
> bona fide TL 16 solar flare techonology. Their relative smallness is put<BR>
> down to the fact that it took them a while to recover from their little<BR>
> 'incident' with the flare and by the time they were spacefaring again all<BR>
> the land was grabbed by others.<BR>
><BR>
> Now apart from being really nice about it and not agressing anyone they<BR>
> also - for a while - let the swordworlds annex a few planets only to grab<BR>
> them back in the 5th frontier war. Somewhere along the way they scared the<BR>
> Zhodani by showing them what they could do with the flair. IMHO this doesnt<BR>
> make sense (apart from the fact that the Zhodani are smart not to mess with<BR>
> the Darrians).<BR>
><BR>
> Equip two ships with black spheres, jump to the enemy system near to the sun<BR>
> and start the flare. By the time - C-lag permitting - a sensor has alerted<BR>
> planetary defences the Darrians are out of there. Bang one planet gone. The<BR>
> sworldworlds wouldnt last a week (jump-time!) against the Darrians so WTH<BR>
> did they let themselves be pushed over in the first place?<BR>
<BR>
They weren't up to pulling off an attack at the time.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen if they were<BR>
*perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of agression. The other<BR>
worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and any of their<BR>
other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
<BR>
And you can bet that various sorts of "lower TL" planet-wreckers would<BR>
be used.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, another reason to avoid using the Star Trigger is that it has<BR>
effects on *other* star systems, not just the ones you use it in. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:36:10 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rubber Baby Body Bunkers revisited<BR>
<BR>
Forgive the late posting but I've been away.<BR>
<BR>
>By the way, is there any record of a boarding action,<BR>
>in combat, in the 20th century (in WWI or WWII?). I<BR>
>think the idea of taking over a ship by boading is a<BR>
>romantic notion from the Greek/Roman era and pirate<BR>
>movies, back when things moved much slower and ship<BR>
>weapons were much less destructive.<BR>
<BR>
In WWII there were several boardings by both the British Navy and the U.S.<BR>
Navy of German submarines. They can mostly be said to follow the pattern of<BR>
blasting the ship until it has no power and is bobbing on the surface like a<BR>
cork without weapons. Then getting the enemy crew to surrender.<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK the recent submarine movie "U-something" is highly fictionalized. No<BR>
covert, "we're other guys just like you, let us aboard" cover story was ever<BR>
used.<BR>
<BR>
Modern boarding actions, as carried on by U.S. Naval warships in the Gulf<BR>
and on the high seas during the Cuban Missile Crisis basically follow this<BR>
pattern:<BR>
<BR>
The ship is contacted by radio and told to stop and prepare for boarding. If<BR>
they refuse to stop they are followed until they either stop or pull into<BR>
the waters of a country with which we do not have a treaty (Iran in most<BR>
cases in the Gulf).<BR>
<BR>
When they stop an armed boarding party is sent over in a small craft<BR>
(usually a Ridged Inflatable Boat.)<BR>
<BR>
The boarding party gathers all of the crew in one place and then searches<BR>
the ship for contraband.<BR>
<BR>
Should any of the party be fired upon they are expected to fight their way<BR>
back to their boat and leave. At that time the intercepting warship may fire<BR>
on the boarded vessel.<BR>
<BR>
It should be said that these methods are used on **unarmed** merchant<BR>
vessels only and the inability to fire on vessels that refuse to stop are<BR>
the result of **political** not tactical situations.<BR>
<BR>
The Coast Guard does most of the boardings now days. These are typically of<BR>
small craft, power boats and sailing craft, not merchant or war craft. Under<BR>
International law the CG can stop any U.S. flagged vessel for inspection.<BR>
They can also stop the vessels of other nations with that country's<BR>
permission. The way it usually works is if the Guard wants to search a<BR>
vessel flagged in Antigua they will as the ship to stand down and be<BR>
boarded. If the vessel's captain refuses they will shadow the vessel while<BR>
they contact the Antigua authorities for permission. Once they get<BR>
permission the ship will be ordered to stop. If the vessel refuses they<BR>
***will*** be fired upon. If they fire back the Guard has heavy weapons<BR>
available as well as the authority to request backup from the Navy.<BR>
<BR>
I can remember an incident when a drug runner in a yacht fired on a Coastie.<BR>
They weren't prepared for the Navy destroyer that fired 50 cal across their<BR>
bow, or the boarding party that followed.<BR>
<BR>
I guess my final word on this is that I expect contested boarding actions to<BR>
be generally limited to Free Traders and private vessels (like those used by<BR>
PC's.) Megacorp Ships and Military vessels will either voluntarily accept<BR>
boarders or be holed prior to boarding. This, of course does not include<BR>
P---tes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:37:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Frank. I have just about got a W3C Schema ready for library data - I<BR>
> intend to do a generic application (browser-based) for adding to and<BR>
> using it before I release it, but have a 'minor' <grin> problem that<BR>
> I've not been able to solve for the last two weeks (God, I'm getting<BR>
> slow). How on Earth do I create a definition for the standard form of<BR>
> Imperial Calendar dates (ddd-yyyy) making sure that they have the<BR>
> right number of digits and ranges?<BR>
><BR>
> I can do the day and the year separately, but can't get the whole<BR>
> thing to work. Any help gratefully accepted (please...pretty, pretty<BR>
> please...).<BR>
<BR>
I don't even *recognize* the software you are talking about. So this is<BR>
going to be *real* general. <BR>
<BR>
The year can have *any* value, but allow for bot 0 and for negative<BR>
values. The day of the year is limited to 1-366. With 366 only occuring<BR>
when:<BR>
	abs(year) mod 4 = 0<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:41:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: [new subscriber] looking for Traveller activity<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
Please excuse me for any breach of etiquette, but I am very interested in<BR>
returning to Traveller after a two-year hiatus.  However, I was curious if<BR>
anyone was aware of any currently active PBEM games, any realtime chat<BR>
games, or any tabletop games in the Pasadena/Caltech area which would be<BR>
looking for players.<BR>
<BR>
I currently possess a fair amount of printed material: CT Books 1-6, TCS,<BR>
hopefully soon Supplements 4 and 9, the MT basic rules, a few scattered<BR>
TNE supplements, the T4 rulebook, and the M0 sourcebook and First Survey.  <BR>
I was hoping to find a Milieu 0 game, but I understand that there may not<BR>
be sufficient options for me to be choosy.  ;)  I do prefer CT and T4<BR>
(with some modification) to the other rulesets, but (again) I can't be<BR>
choosy.<BR>
<BR>
I would be willing to pick up GURPS Traveller; although I have no<BR>
experience with GURPS, I understand that one may download the basic rules<BR>
from SJG's website.<BR>
<BR>
I was also fortunate enought to download much of the material which was<BR>
available on the web around 1998 and still have it.  Unfortunately many<BR>
sites seem to be no longer in existence.<BR>
<BR>
Before I came to graduate school here, I was running a Milieu 0 game which<BR>
was not completed to my satisfaction, and I might be willing to resurrect<BR>
it, especially for tabletop but perhaps for other venues.  It would be<BR>
very difficult with my present schedule, however, and I was hoping to play<BR>
instead in order to better understand how GMs with more experience with<BR>
Traveller run their games.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any information anyone may have.  :)<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:50:58 -0500<BR>
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
At 01:48 PM 7/9/00 -0700, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>According to the statistical summary at<BR>
>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
>planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
>Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this guy? I<BR>
>always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status to<BR>
>avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these others?<BR>
<BR>
The TL17 3I world is Sabmyquis (sp?) in the Antares sector.  It is the home <BR>
of intelligent robots that were all that remained after their masters died <BR>
off thousands of years ago from an offworld plague brought back by STL <BR>
ships (they never developed jump drive).  When contacted by the Vilani <BR>
during pre-Solomani periods, their ships were all destroyed when trying to <BR>
land and the world was restricted.  When the Solomani took over the <BR>
Imperium, they had developed Meson screens that allowed them to land, but <BR>
it was still centuries until meaningful contact was finally <BR>
instituted.  Even today (1100's) contact team members still disappear <BR>
without explanation, and the other members don't ask, because they usually <BR>
then disappear too.<BR>
<BR>
Most of the TL 16 worlds are in the main developed sectors of the <BR>
Imperium.  The closest to the Spinward Marches is, I believe, Depot, in Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson<BR>
	nimrodd@fastlane.net<BR>
"Cannot say.<BR>
  Saying, I would know.<BR>
  Do not know.<BR>
  So cannot say."<BR>
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:41:06 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Radiation Exposure (was re : Boarding, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Oops!<BR>
<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> The 100Gy value is effectively the LD100 for people.<BR>
> I note that this is equal to 10kJ/kg tissue<BR>
<BR>
**1 Grey = 1J/kg**<BR>
<BR>
D'oh!<BR>
<BR>
From a NATO NBC warfare manual I took from the WWW:-<BR>
LD5 2-3Gy<BR>
LD95 6-7Gy<BR>
<BR>
For high radiation doses (in excess of 1000 cGy), early transient<BR>
incapacitation (ETI) occurs on average within 5 to 10 minutes after<BR>
acute whole-body irradiation. With lowering the dose the median<BR>
time of ETI occurrence increases up to 12 to 15 minutes. Typical<BR>
duration of ETI is of the order of 15 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
(This refers to an inability to perform complex tasks).<BR>
<BR>
Military personnel receiving an acute incapacitation dose (30 Gy) will<BR>
become performance degraded almost immediately and combat ineffective<BR>
within several hours. However, they will not die until 5-6 days after<BR>
exposure if they do not receive any other injuries which make them more<BR>
susceptible to the radiation dose. Soldiers receiving less than a total<BR>
of 150 cGy will remain combat effective. Between those two extremes,<BR>
military personnel receiving doses greater than 150 cGy will become<BR>
degraded; some will eventually die. A dose of 530-830 cGy is considered<BR>
lethal but not immediately incapacitating. Personnel exposed to this<BR>
amount of radiation will become performance degraded within 2-3 hours,<BR>
depending on how physically demanding the tasks they must perform are,<BR>
and will remain in this degraded state at least 2 days. However, at that<BR>
point they will experience a recovery period and be effective at<BR>
performing nondemanding tasks for about 6 days, after which they will<BR>
relapse into a degraded state of performance and remain so for about 4<BR>
weeks. At this time they will begin exhibiting radiation symptoms of<BR>
sufficient severity to render them totally ineffective. Death follows at<BR>
approximately 6 weeks after exposure. Experiments conducted with animal<BR>
models have shown that exposure to high doses of ionizing radiation (of<BR>
the order of 25 Gy) results in an immediate precipitous decline in<BR>
cerebral blood flow (CBF) which is followed by a partial recovery at<BR>
20-30 minutes, and subsequent slower secondary decrease in CBF<BR>
thereafter accompanied by parallel changes in systemic blood pressure.<BR>
These data indicate that radiation adversely affects the ability of the<BR>
brain to regulate its blood supply. The implication of this indication<BR>
extends into the realm of behavioral studies of early transient<BR>
incapacitation and performance decrement (ETI-PD). The activity of<BR>
certain brain enzymes involved in neurotransmitter metabolism is also<BR>
considerably affected during ETI.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry about the formatting.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:56:48 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > > Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
> > > > Remember: No combat ready unit ever passed inspection and no<BR>
> > > > inspection ready unit ever passed combat<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > You obviously haven't studied the history of the British<BR>
> >>  Empire, you untidy slob !<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > <grin - just in case><BR>
> > > Frankie><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
> > (Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
><BR>
> Either, both showed the effects of proper shaving and spit-polish on unruly<BR>
> native troops.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
But in both cases the brits got hteir butts handed to them....in a lot of cases<BR>
due to leadership stupidity<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:05:24 -0500<BR>
From: Nachopete <j_pete@bellsouth.net><BR>
Subject: Modular Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
What do you think of this?<BR>
<BR>
100-ton Sitka-class Modular Shuttle, Y-58 (TL12)<BR>
<BR>
This is a 100-ton shuttle designed to carry two standard cutter<BR>
modules. It is two thirds the price of two modular cutters. <BR>
Crew : 3 Total. Captain/Pilot, Co-Pilot, and Engineer<BR>
<BR>
Hull : 100-ton VGSL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials , Bonded<BR>
Superdense (Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 200), Standard<BR>
Compartmentalization.<BR>
<BR>
Control Areas : Basic Bridge.<BR>
<BR>
Engineering : Engineering, 12 Maneuver Drive, Utility, 17.4<BR>
Man-Hours/day Maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
Stores : Hold, 30 Vehicle Bay 1(Module), 30 Vehicle Bay 2(Module).<BR>
<BR>
Totals : EMass 116.5 stons, LMass 479 stons, Cost MCr13.1, HP 15,000,<BR>
Size Mod 8, HT 12, CP 7.<BR>
<BR>
Performance : Acc L/E 2.51 / 10.30 Gs, Airspeed 3,000 mph, Skimming<BR>
Airspeed 8,486 mph, Aerostatic Lift 1,200 stons.<BR>
<BR>
Sample Times (Earth Std, Full Load) : Orbit 0.09 Hrs, Escape Velocity<BR>
0.13 Hrs, 100D 4.03 Hrs, Earth-Mars 69.26 Hrs.<BR>
<BR>
Copyright  2000 by Jeff Peterson <BR>
Created using Thomas Bont's Gurps Traveller Ships 2.04<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and  the<BR>
 Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:01:09 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>No, I just like to point out that "easy answers" usually *aren't*.<BR>
<BR>
Not in my experience.  The vast majority of obvious solutions function<BR>
just fine...perhaps they aren't the 100% best solutions, but I'll go with<BR>
the late General Patton on the difference between "best" and "good" here.<BR>
Yeah, you'll occasionally wind up with a tragic set of coincidences, but in <BR>
general the solution to stopping a car is to use the brakes, the solution to <BR>
being thirsty is to drink water, the solution to a problem that has you befuddled <BR>
is to ask someone smarter than you.  We recognize such solutions as "obvious" <BR>
because we have experience with such problems in the past, and these are the<BR>
solutions that *worked*.  There are probably inobvious solutions that work<BR>
better, and situations where the obvious thing will screw you up, but I don't<BR>
think that is the normal case.<BR>
<BR>
> It's occured to me that high pressure air, and all the organics in soil<BR>
> might be a bit explosive. :-)<BR>
<BR>
I doubt that the few seconds between broken suction seal and departing<BR>
grav vehicle will allow sufficient explosive anythings to be generated, even<BR>
if local atmosphere + some pressure + near-surface soil composition<BR>
equalled anything explosive - which I think is unlikely, as IMO any unstable<BR>
reactants like that in the upper soil layer should have already been acted<BR>
upon.<BR>
<BR>
All you should need to do is foam the mud up a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:32:30 -0700<BR>
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
> on 7/9/00 6:40 AM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> My reply:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Same for a level A "Moon Suit" used in Hazmat incidents.  Self contained,<BR>
>> breathing canned air and sealed with positive air flow such that nothing can<BR>
>> enter and very little can exit.  All your body heat and moisture is sealed<BR>
>> in.   In five minutes it's a sauna even on a mild day.  Like CBR you go from<BR>
>> "hot zone" to "decon" to "safe zone" to exit the site.  Interesting point,<BR>
>> you have from 3 to 5 minutes of air trapped in the suit when your air supply<BR>
>> is exhausted due to the fact that the suite inflates around you such that<BR>
>> you look like the Pillsbury doughboy.  Is that true for any of the Traveller<BR>
>> environmental suits?  I seem to recall at least one hard suit intended for<BR>
>> vac and harsh environment work using waldos which might fit the bill, does<BR>
>> anyone else?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Dan<BR>
<BR>
This is an excellent description of wearing a level A suit. And until you're<BR>
worn one, you have no idea of how difficult it would be to do any kind of<BR>
work in one. Your visibility and dexterity are extremely limited and you<BR>
need to work with a partner.<BR>
<BR>
If you have an air problem, that person is your only hope (beyond a<BR>
lightning self repair). By the time you could radio anyone other than your<BR>
partner, and get them suited up and into the hostile atmosphere, it would be<BR>
too late to do you much good. Also, just dressing out in the suit,<BR>
decontamination and undressing requires the assistance of a buddy. I can<BR>
imagine that within a short period of time anyone regularly working in vacc<BR>
would be inseparable from their partner.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone who is remotely claustrophobic will not be able to wear one. Period.<BR>
<BR>
This has interesting implications for Traveller, where it assumed that every<BR>
spacer wears one, and that passengers have one available in case of<BR>
emergencies. Perhaps an EPLS ball might be more tolerable for the<BR>
claustrophobic person. However, you might also have to involuntarily sedate<BR>
them to get them inside any vacc  protection. Note that if they're very<BR>
anxious about being forced into the confined space, and whatever emergency<BR>
forced them there to begin with, they are going to use up LOTS more air.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps every child on non-standard worlds would be tested for tolerance to<BR>
a suit, and receive training and hypnotherapy to cure them of any similar<BR>
phobias. Or perhaps commercial space liners might provide "special medical<BR>
services" to any passengers suffering such debilities. Like cruise ships<BR>
that currently hand out anti-motion sickness pills and airlines that conduct<BR>
special pre-flight classes for people that fear flying.<BR>
<BR>
- -Cheryl<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2743<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2744<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Aide de Camp 2 Fifth Frontier War Piece List<BR>
Re: Traveller combat<BR>
RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
RE: ST command structure and medical personel in navies of the 3I<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Modular Shuttle<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
Oops<BR>
Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
Re: Whiter Whites (was Re: looking for players and GM)<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:15:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
>><BR>
>>>Let me know how to make an Electric car do it *without* adding lots of<BR>
>>>explosives.<BR>
>><BR>
>>     Easy, overload the Electric Car's Battery.  Used to do it with 9 volt<BR>
>> batteries all the time.  Just hook up the + to the - without any<BR>
resistance<BR>
>> & the battery will go "boom".<BR>
><BR>
>That's because 9v batteries are designed for *low* current use.<BR>
>*Regular* car batteries have something approaching a dead short every<BR>
>time you start them. A real short rarely cases them to explode, though<BR>
>it may *melt* whatewver you shorted them with.<BR>
><BR>
>Batteries for electric cars will be even *more* immune to that sort of<BR>
>treatment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not really, Leonard, if you have the knowhow, you can rig any battery to<BR>
go *boom*.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:24:40 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Aide de Camp 2 Fifth Frontier War Piece List<BR>
<BR>
The piece list for the Aide de Camp 2 version of Fifth Frontier War is now<BR>
available at http://www.ksarul.com/traveller/adc2/ffw/Piece%20List.htm.<BR>
<BR>
Note that individual squadron or unit designations have now been added, so<BR>
that you can keep detailed records of the game as it progresses.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:29:09 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller combat<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Jul 00, at 11:56, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> "Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Robert Houghton wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> > > Which parts? Those in America? (The redcoats are coming etc...) or Africa?<BR>
> > > (Khartoum or the battle before Rourke's Drift?)<BR>
<BR>
> > Either, both showed the effects of proper shaving and spit-polish on unruly<BR>
> > native troops.<BR>
<BR>
> But in both cases the brits got hteir butts handed to them....in a lot of<BR>
> cases due to leadership stupidity<BR>
<BR>
Actually The American Revolution is a clear cut example of "If you lose <BR>
control of the sea, you can't maintain overseas deployments" (pretty much <BR>
a no-brainer really) and Isandhlwana is a classic case of "Don't <BR>
underestimate an enemy on their home turf, even if you have several TLs <BR>
on them". Both still pretty valid in the Travellery Universe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:12:32 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourself killed...)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> That's because 9v batteries are designed for *low* current use.<BR>
> *Regular* car batteries have something approaching a dead short every<BR>
> time you start them.<BR>
<BR>
Not really. On start the current is changing so rapidly, the coils of the<BR>
starter motor represent quite a large reactance to the "AC" component of the<BR>
current.<BR>
<BR>
> A real short rarely cases them to explode, though<BR>
> it may *melt* whatewver you shorted them with.<BR>
<BR>
You're right, a car battery doesn't usually explode because of the short,<BR>
but a short will very likley generate a spark, and even a small spark can<BR>
cause a normal car battery to explode, if it's been charging recently, such<BR>
as after you've just stopped driving. Charging a battery gives off hydrogen.<BR>
I've seen a battery case blown throw a six inch concrete wall this way.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:15:25 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:48 PM 7/9/00 -0700, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>According to the statistical summary at<BR>
>>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
>>planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
>>Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this guy? I<BR>
>>always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status to<BR>
>>avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these others?<BR>
<BR>
Vincennes/Deneb 1122  A899AA6-G Hi In Cp -113 (as of 1117) is that<BR>
wonderful thing, a TL16 *industrial* world in the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
It's in a multiple star system, with mean temperatures ranging from<BR>
66C to -20C and violent storms.  Most of the population lives under<BR>
the sea, or in grav cities that can climb above any unpleasant<BR>
weather.  Food is grown on an agricultural planet in the same star<BR>
system.  According to the Regency Sourcebook, in 1202 Vincennes is on<BR>
the cusp of entering TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Persnally I'm a bit doubtful about these TL16 Depot facilities -<BR>
shouldn't that imply a TL 16 Imperial Navy?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
(oh, and to those people talking about Khartoum and Isandhlwana, I've<BR>
three words to say: "Omdurman and Ulundi"...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:51:49 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> This is intended for M1100, pre FFW.<BR>
> <BR>
> I first thought that Esalin would be like Berlin too. But then<BR>
> I thought about a rich, non-industrialized, agricultural planet<BR>
> with only 2 million inhabitants. Having only 2 million people<BR>
> to run the entire planet doesn't leave much room for big cities<BR>
> with lots of spy stuff going on. And since Esalin is balkanized,<BR>
> you have the overhead of running more than one government.<BR>
<BR>
To modify what I said before: I saw Esalin as being  like  Berlin<BR>
... surrounded by farmland about the size of  Germany.  The  rest<BR>
of the planet  would  be  unexploited  wilderness.  The  delicate<BR>
political situation would prevent  any  large-scale  colonisation<BR>
programs, and be a dis-incentive  to  major  corporate  interest.<BR>
So, in addition to the sporadic  tensions  many  Esaliners  would<BR>
feel the life of their planet was indefinitely in hold.  At least<BR>
thats how I play it IMTU.  You don't need the whole planet to  be<BR>
productive to qualify as "Ri, Ni, Ag".<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:32:32 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley writes:<BR>
>>>Sending robots in first might be a good idea.<BR>
>>Or might not.  The discussion sounds like who/whatever goes in will have<BR>
>>to make decisions about when to kill and when to take prisoners.  Robots<BR>
>>tend to be poor at making judgement calls.<BR>
>I was thinking more along the lines of a dumbot with a human operator.  The<BR>
>communications might be a bit tricky.  It saves lives though.<BR>
<BR>
	So, you're one of those commi robot-loving pinkos, are you?  :)<BR>
<BR>
	Robots would tend to very useful in many scouting situations, and<BR>
	I would expect a boarding party could have one or two to lead the way.<BR>
	Even a small remote control camera would be handy.  But I would<BR>
	expect some poor underpaid grunts to follow it in.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:43:32 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: ST command structure and medical personel in navies of the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>OK, I have to check up on this.  But I remember very clearly Riker remarking<BR>
>that a commanding officer (Picard or a temp?) "was very confident">  Our<BR>
>favorite councilor replied "no, he's really scared".  Thanks, for sharing.<BR>
>I'm sure we all feel much better.<BR>
<BR>
	The comment was about the CO replacing Picard, after that CO left the<BR>
	bridge.  Not professional, but perhaps a simptom of solidarity with<BR>
	the regular crew.<BR>
<BR>
>>IMO, having an officer on the bridge who's sole duty is to monitor the<BR>
>>emotional stability of the officers who control weaponry that can devastate<BR>
>>planets is a good thing.<BR>
>We don't seem to need this for Ballistic Missile Subs.  Though I guess you<BR>
>might make the argument that political officers in the Soviet fleet<BR>
>performed this role.<BR>
<BR>
	While ST Starfleet is obviously a military structure, their function<BR>
	is arguably quite different from, say, the Imperial Navy or the<BR>
	Soviet fleet.  I personally don't like the idea of a 'Ship's<BR>
	Councillor' on the bridge, but it wouldn't seem to be a stretch to<BR>
	have such a person as part of the medical department.  What sort<BR>
	of medical personel are to be found on warships in and around the 3I?<BR>
	EMTs, paramedics, doctors, surgeons, pathologists, psychologists,<BR>
	dentists, proctologists... ?<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:49:57 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
>I had a conversation with a friend of mine who works at Argonne National Lab<BR>
>which made me think about ship design in Traveller. My friend used to design<BR>
>nuclear reactors. With these designs, safety is very important. Because of<BR>
>this, they tried to automate lots of critical processes. What they found out<BR>
>was that although the automated system works much better than a system with<BR>
>a human operator, if something goes wrong, it's more difficult to fix. A<BR>
>human operator who keeps making adjustments to a process manually has an<BR>
>idea about what's going on, and if something starts to go wrong, he knows<BR>
>the history of the system and can more easily correct the problem. On the<BR>
>other hand, if a system is automated, whan operators try to make a<BR>
>correction, they *don't* know the history of the system, and thus have a<BR>
>much harder time understanding and correcting a problem.<BR>
<BR>
	Plus, the automation itself adds complexity and may have to be<BR>
	repaired.<BR>
<BR>
>So if you have a highly-automated ship in your Traveller game, it will<BR>
>probably work great most of the time. But when something goes wrong, it may<BR>
>be much harder to correct, and will probably take much longer to correct<BR>
>also.<BR>
>Maybe this is why Traveller has people manning turrets and drive rooms when<BR>
>these functions could easily be automated.<BR>
<BR>
	That works for me.  I would make the automation relatively expensive to<BR>
	install, unreliable in unusual situations, with a tendency to just<BR>
	shut down when things go less than perfectly, and more difficult to<BR>
	repair.  On top of that, perhaps a penalty for an engineer working on<BR>
	drives with which he/she is not familiar, such as a boarded vessel.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 12:49:20 +0000<BR>
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I bet they *import* as much TL16 (or even *17*) tech as they can from<BR>
>> the Darrians, and anyplace else they can. Even if the source is<BR>
>> *sectors* away. I seem to recall the pre-Rebellion CT/MT Imperium<BR>
>> having a few TL 16 worlds, and there being a TL 17 *somewhere*.<BR>
><BR>
>According to the statistical summary at<BR>
>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
>planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
>Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this guy? I<BR>
>always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status to<BR>
>avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these others?<BR>
<BR>
IIRC, wasn't the TL H world inhabited by a race of xenophobic AI robots?<BR>
<BR>
The TL H code being a guess based on the effectiveness of the planetary<BR>
defences on passing ships.<BR>
<BR>
Fortunately, they don't seem to have any desire to leave their planet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Phil Kitching<BR>
- --<BR>
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/<BR>
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.<BR>
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:42:08 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> I had a conversation with a friend of mine who works at Argonne<BR>
> National Lab which made me think about ship design in<BR>
> Traveller. My friend used to design nuclear reactors. With<BR>
> these designs, safety is very important. Because of this, they<BR>
> tried to automate lots of critical processes. What they found<BR>
> out was that although the automated system works much better<BR>
> than a system with a human operator, if something goes wrong,<BR>
> it's more difficult to fix. A human operator who keeps making<BR>
> adjustments to a process manually has an idea about what's<BR>
> going on, and if something starts to go wrong, he knows the<BR>
> history of the system and can more easily correct the problem.<BR>
> On the other hand, if a system is automated, whan operators<BR>
> try to make a correction, they *don't* know the history of the<BR>
> system, and thus have a much harder time understanding and<BR>
> correcting a problem.<BR>
> <BR>
> So if you have a highly-automated ship in your Traveller game,<BR>
> it will probably work great most of the time. But when something<BR>
> goes wrong, it may be much harder to correct, and will probably<BR>
> take much longer to correct also.<BR>
> <BR>
> Maybe this is why Traveller has people manning turrets and<BR>
> drive rooms when these functions could easily be automated.<BR>
<BR>
I think there's a flaw in your argument.  While what you say  may<BR>
be true for TL 8 control systems, I don't believe it would  apply<BR>
to TL 15 control systems:  At TL 8 computer systems cannot  think<BR>
for themselves: they can only respond to situations they've  been<BR>
programmed for (though it is possible to design  a  system  which<BR>
can make adjustments based on past performance).  But by TL 15 we<BR>
have synaptic processors (see robot rules in  CT  and  elsewhere)<BR>
and thus TL 15 control systems which can think for themselves ...<BR>
the human 'operator' merely instructs the control system to  make<BR>
a correction and the control system implements this  using  *its*<BR>
knowledge and experience of the process in question.  The role of<BR>
the  human  'operator'  becomes  an  overseer  rather   than   an<BR>
implementor.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:12:26 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen if they were<BR>
> *perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of agression. The other<BR>
> worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and any of their<BR>
> other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
<BR>
Suppose, however, that the Darrians *hadn't* unintentionally wrecked their<BR>
homeworld with solar flares back in -924?  The "Spinward Marches" could<BR>
have easily become "Darrian Empire" instead, which could have easily<BR>
extended all the way back to the Corridor, or perhaps beyond.  Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:20:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Modular Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
In order to create modules in GT - you need to use External Clamps - the<BR>
newest version of GTS has them (which you are not using) :)<BR>
<BR>
Vehicle bays work a tad diffrently then clamps.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Nachopete<BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 7:05 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Modular Shuttle<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
What do you think of this?<BR>
<BR>
100-ton Sitka-class Modular Shuttle, Y-58 (TL12)<BR>
<BR>
This is a 100-ton shuttle designed to carry two standard cutter<BR>
modules. It is two thirds the price of two modular cutters.<BR>
Crew : 3 Total. Captain/Pilot, Co-Pilot, and Engineer<BR>
<BR>
Hull : 100-ton VGSL, Medium Frame, Standard Materials , Bonded<BR>
Superdense (Expensive) Armored Hull (DR 200), Standard<BR>
Compartmentalization.<BR>
<BR>
Control Areas : Basic Bridge.<BR>
<BR>
Engineering : Engineering, 12 Maneuver Drive, Utility, 17.4<BR>
Man-Hours/day Maintenance.<BR>
<BR>
Stores : Hold, 30 Vehicle Bay 1(Module), 30 Vehicle Bay 2(Module).<BR>
<BR>
Totals : EMass 116.5 stons, LMass 479 stons, Cost MCr13.1, HP 15,000,<BR>
Size Mod 8, HT 12, CP 7.<BR>
<BR>
Performance : Acc L/E 2.51 / 10.30 Gs, Airspeed 3,000 mph, Skimming<BR>
Airspeed 8,486 mph, Aerostatic Lift 1,200 stons.<BR>
<BR>
Sample Times (Earth Std, Full Load) : Orbit 0.09 Hrs, Escape Velocity<BR>
0.13 Hrs, 100D 4.03 Hrs, Earth-Mars 69.26 Hrs.<BR>
<BR>
Copyright  2000 by Jeff Peterson<BR>
Created using Thomas Bont's Gurps Traveller Ships 2.04<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson (j_pete@bellsouth.net)<BR>
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and<BR>
the<BR>
 Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:24:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
IMTU 'Ratballs' are very common on ships - there are several in most room's<BR>
emergency lockers. This has two impacts - 1) most people can get into a<BR>
fully transparent 'Ratball' easily. 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people 'running' down<BR>
a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
<BR>
It is assumed that crewbeings or vacc suit trained personel will assist the<BR>
ratballs out of the ship. Also, I require Vacc suit skill to wear a vacc<BR>
suit (at least Vacc Suit - 0).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Cheryl<BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2000 7:33 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
This has interesting implications for Traveller, where it assumed that every<BR>
spacer wears one, and that passengers have one available in case of<BR>
emergencies. Perhaps an EPLS ball might be more tolerable for the<BR>
claustrophobic person. However, you might also have to involuntarily sedate<BR>
them to get them inside any vacc  protection. Note that if they're very<BR>
anxious about being forced into the confined space, and whatever emergency<BR>
forced them there to begin with, they are going to use up LOTS more air.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:51:48 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
Dear Mr. Day,<BR>
<BR>
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have<BR>
learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as<BR>
many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual<BR>
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly<BR>
states it to be anabomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from<BR>
you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.<BR>
<BR>
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus<BR>
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?<BR>
<BR>
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period<BR>
of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell?<BR>
I have tried asking, but most women take offense.<BR>
<BR>
Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from other nations around us. A<BR>
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Americans. Can<BR>
you clarify?<BR>
<BR>
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2<BR>
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill<BR>
him myself?<BR>
<BR>
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination<BR>
(Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree.<BR>
Can you settle this?<BR>
<BR>
Lastly, Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I<BR>
have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses.<BR>
Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?<BR>
<BR>
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can<BR>
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and<BR>
unchanging.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
A loyal Alliance supporter and fellow Christian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:54:12 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Oops<BR>
<BR>
Members of the TML,<BR>
<BR>
My appologies for "An open letter to Stockwell Day."  This was meant for a<BR>
friend of mine, and I sent it to the TML by mistake.  Sorry about the<BR>
bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
:(<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:01:08 -0600<BR>
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Dear Mr. Day,<BR>
> <BR>
> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have<BR>
> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as<BR>
> many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual<BR>
> lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly<BR>
> states it to be anabomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from<BR>
> you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav?<BR>
<BR>
As an Albertan, I at least know who Stockwell Day is. However, many others<BR>
on the TML may not know. More importantly, they may not care.<BR>
<BR>
Please keep this stuff off the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Erwin Fritz<BR>
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.<BR>
http://www.glja.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:18:53 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Whiter Whites (was Re: looking for players and GM)<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Oh yeah, a note on arctic camoflauge. We learned the hard way that you<BR>
> *don't* wash white items in modern detergents if you intend to use them<BR>
> as camouflage. You see, the "brighteners" make them faintly *purple*<BR>
> and they stand out like a sore thumb against snow.<BR>
<BR>
Most modern detergents make clothing vaguely phosphorescent. They glow <BR>
in response to UV light. You can see the same effect if you're wearing<BR>
a seemingly black t-shirt and standling under a blacklight (which usually<BR>
appear deep violet). You'll be covered with millions of tiny little <BR>
glowing flakes of detergent.<BR>
<BR>
In normal daylight, this is what gives clothes their "whiter than white"<BR>
appearance - they're reflecting more than the full visible spectrum of<BR>
light.<BR>
<BR>
This effect can be used quite successfully to distinguish the local<BR>
college kids from the "real thing" at goth bars. It was always slightly <BR>
embarassing showing up and having you clothes scream "look who got washed <BR>
today! Over here! Woo hoo!".<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:32:20 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "William \"Commander X\" Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:50:58 -0500<BR>
>From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:48 PM 7/9/00 -0700, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>According to the statistical summary at<BR>
>>http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, there are actually 79<BR>
>>planets at TL G and 1 planet at TL H in the 3I! Where are these planets?<BR>
>>Have they been developed? What about the TL G planet? Where is this<BR>
guy? I<BR>
>>always assumed that GDW handwaved Darrian into "mostly harmless" status<BR>
to<BR>
>>avoid making it the center of too much attention. What about these<BR>
others?<BR>
<BR>
<Info re: Sambyquiz (who can realy remember the spelling of that<BR>
anyway?) cut><BR>
<BR>
You have peaked my interest, I now need to find that other TL17 world<BR>
mentioned on the grandsurvey pages.<BR>
<BR>
>Most of the TL 16 worlds are in the main developed sectors of the <BR>
>Imperium.  The closest to the Spinward Marches is, I believe, Depot, in<BR>
Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget Vincennes also in Deneb Sector. They have a full TL16 culture<BR>
as well.  According to TNE: RSB by 1200 it was gearing up for TL17.  I<BR>
think that store someone mentioned "G", that is a high tech research<BR>
consortium on Vincennes. IMTU it's the main R&D world for X-TEK, cranking<BR>
out such obsenities as meson armed fighters and hyperthrust missiles and<BR>
drones.<BR>
<BR>
If Deneb has 2 TL16 worlds, Vincennes and Depot, you would think that<BR>
there would be a TL16 Denebian Fleet somewhere.  Of course that<BR>
information would be FNORD ;-)<BR>
<BR>
\\    //  Commander X<BR>
 \\  //   CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
  T E K   Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //  \\   http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
//    \\  0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:10:05 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: John P. Raynor [mailto:john.raynor@yale.edu]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 2:12 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen <BR>
> if they were<BR>
> > *perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of <BR>
> aggression. The other<BR>
> > worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and <BR>
> any of their<BR>
> > other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
> <BR>
> Suppose, however, that the Darrians *hadn't* unintentionally <BR>
> wrecked their<BR>
> homeworld with solar flares back in -924?  The "Spinward <BR>
> Marches" could<BR>
> have easily become "Darrian Empire" instead, which could have easily<BR>
> extended all the way back to the Corridor, or perhaps beyond. <BR>
>  Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that would *appear* to be the case.<BR>
<BR>
Now we all know that canonically, once a society reaches TL16 then *bad*<BR>
things happen. The TL17 Sambiquis <sp> must have passed through TL16 so<BR>
quickly, that by the time the bad things caught up with them they were<BR>
already TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Now what are these 'bad' things... a Nova, a Plague, Virus... It all<BR>
sounds suspiciously like there is some 'effect' there trying to keep<BR>
uppity sophonts in their place. For want of a name I shall pluck one out<BR>
of the ether... I shall call it "The Grandfather Effect".<BR>
<BR>
Due, of course, to the propensity for ones elders to say "Eeee, it<BR>
weren't like that in my day. It'll all end in tears, you mark my words".<BR>
Any resemblance the name has to any other being in or out of the<BR>
universe is purely coincidental. <BR>
<BR>
Honest <g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:09:20<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
At 08:01 AM 7/10/2000 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>ObTrav?<BR>
<BR>
Grab 101 Religions from BITS, and you can have all sorts of fun with ideas<BR>
like this.<BR>
<BR>
>As an Albertan, I at least know who Stockwell Day is. However, many others<BR>
>on the TML may not know. More importantly, they may not care.<BR>
<BR>
In the US, this has been "an open letter to Dr. Laura", a talk-radio host<BR>
whose idea of help is to scream at people.<BR>
<BR>
>Please keep this stuff off the TML.<BR>
<BR>
Agreed.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:36:35 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Now we all know that canonically, once a society reaches TL16 then *bad*<BR>
> things happen. The TL17 Sambiquis <sp> must have passed through TL16 so<BR>
> quickly, that by the time the bad things caught up with them they were<BR>
> already TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before their karma<BR>
finally caught up with them?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:44:32 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "William \"Commander X\" Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
I've done a bit of research with the trade maps seeking out the other<BR>
TL-H(17) world, and I am now very scared of the Solomani<BR>
Confederation.  The Solomani Rim is just the tip of the iceburg!<BR>
<BR>
The other TL-H world is an asteroid belt called Alvarez located in hex<BR>
0710 of Langere Sector.  UCP: A000100-H As Lo Ni  524 So. 50 belters with<BR>
TL17 Seekers? I don't think so. I wonder what they are researching there.<BR>
<BR>
But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in Aldebaran<BR>
Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to 40<BR>
Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
<BR>
Be afraid, be very afraid...<BR>
<BR>
What does the Imperium have to combat this threat?  Well Massillia Sector<BR>
alone has 24 TL-G worlds...<BR>
<BR>
\\    //  Commander X<BR>
 \\  //   CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
  T E K   Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //  \\   http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
//    \\  0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2744<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2745<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
Re : medical personel in navies of the 3I<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: Delphi Sector<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:02:05 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Gregory Carl Kettler [mailto:gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 4:37 PM<BR>
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'<BR>
> Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Now we all know that canonically, once a society reaches <BR>
> TL16 then *bad*<BR>
> > things happen. The TL17 Sambiquis <sp> must have passed <BR>
> through TL16 so<BR>
> > quickly, that by the time the bad things caught up with <BR>
> them they were<BR>
> > already TL17.<BR>
> <BR>
> Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before <BR>
> their karma<BR>
> finally caught up with them?<BR>
<BR>
Precisely <weg><BR>
<BR>
And note that Vincennes survived Virus, and is now (~1200) about to hit<BR>
TL17. But "Oh no! What's this! The 'Empress Wave' is about to hit!"...<BR>
<BR>
Matt <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:07:46 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 9:09 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
> >Please keep this stuff off the TML.<BR>
> <BR>
> Agreed.<BR>
<BR>
C'mon guys, He posted an "Ooops! Wrong List" apology 2 minutes later.<BR>
Though no doubt this crossed a digest boundary, so no-one who gets the<BR>
digest will see the retraction for a few hours yet...<BR>
<BR>
Of course, if it didn't cross a digest break, then reading the next<BR>
message before posting a "Boo! Hiss! Take it off the List" message is<BR>
surely not too difficult.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:13:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >So if you have a highly-automated ship in your Traveller game, it will<BR>
> >probably work great most of the time. But when something goes<BR>
> wrong, it may<BR>
> >be much harder to correct, and will probably take much longer to correct<BR>
> >also.<BR>
> >Maybe this is why Traveller has people manning turrets and drive<BR>
> rooms when<BR>
> >these functions could easily be automated.<BR>
><BR>
> 	That works for me.  I would make the automation relatively<BR>
> expensive to<BR>
> 	install, unreliable in unusual situations, with a tendency to just<BR>
> 	shut down when things go less than perfectly, and more difficult to<BR>
> 	repair.  On top of that, perhaps a penalty for an engineer<BR>
> working on<BR>
> 	drives with which he/she is not familiar, such as a boarded vessel.<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I am reminded of the fact that many Soviet/Russian tanks have auto-loaders,<BR>
while US tanks have a human loader.  Complexity is one factor.  Adding<BR>
automation means now you have a new complex system which is, itself,<BR>
vulnerable to damage.  IIRC, Niven/Pournelle touched on this in an<BR>
introduction to "Mote in god's eye", later published in Pornelle's "There<BR>
will be war" as a short story.  Manual systems also, as was noted in the<BR>
same piece, give space hands something to do in the long weeks of travel,<BR>
i.e. calibrate and maintain weapons, clean the head, etc.  The more complex<BR>
a system, the more to go wrong. KISS.  Automation has to be weighed costs<BR>
(monetary, reliability, complexity) vs. benefits. A ship with super-complex<BR>
automation tied into every systems, in the even of failure, may find itself<BR>
at the mercy of a lower tech buy manual adversary.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone remember the recent demonstration of the US Navy's automated ship<BR>
project (powered by windows NT, IIRC)?  A divide by zero error resulted in a<BR>
helpless ship foundering at sea for several hours.  Oops.<BR>
<BR>
MHO,<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:18:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
William "Commander X" Prankard writes:<BR>
<BR>
> The other TL-H world is an asteroid belt called Alvarez located in hex<BR>
> 0710 of Langere Sector.  UCP: A000100-H As Lo Ni  524 So. 50 belters with<BR>
> TL17 Seekers? I don't think so. I wonder what they are researching there.<BR>
> <BR>
> But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in Aldebaran<BR>
> Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to 40<BR>
> Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
> J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
> using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
<BR>
I think I edited that sector manually and reduced De Hamylton to TL-G.  Be aware that the Alderbaran sector has no canon support, it was come up with by someone on the Net (this is true of several sectors in my maps).<BR>
<BR>
If the person who wrote up the Aldebaran sector could contact me, I'll add that information to my files.  I know I was contacted once before, but I lost the email.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:21:40 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
> I think there's a flaw in your argument.  While what you say  may<BR>
> be true for TL 8 control systems, I don't believe it would  apply<BR>
> to TL 15 control systems:  At TL 8 computer systems cannot  think<BR>
> for themselves: they can only respond to situations they've  been<BR>
> programmed for (though it is possible to design  a  system  which<BR>
> can make adjustments based on past performance).  But by TL 15 we<BR>
> have synaptic processors (see robot rules in  CT  and  elsewhere)<BR>
> and thus TL 15 control systems which can think for themselves ...<BR>
> the human 'operator' merely instructs the control system to  make<BR>
> a correction and the control system implements this  using  *its*<BR>
> knowledge and experience of the process in question.  The role of<BR>
> the  human  'operator'  becomes  an  overseer  rather   than   an<BR>
> implementor.<BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Great.  Who's to say a systems that can 'think for itself' won't be subject<BR>
to all the mental vagarities of a human operator. What happens when the<BR>
system has the electronic equivalent of a 'bad day', 'nervous breakdown' or<BR>
'performance anxiety'? It's bad enough that we already have systems that<BR>
seem to exhibit 'personalities' now.  Has anyone considered the problems<BR>
that might be encountered with highly 'intelligent or autonomous' systems in<BR>
the future.<BR>
<BR>
I'm certainly not saying this WILL be the case, but it MIGHT be.<BR>
<BR>
"Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
"I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
"Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
"It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you know.  Its all<BR>
'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY needs? I think we should talk<BR>
about our relationship."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:24:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen if they were<BR>
> > *perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of agression. The other<BR>
> > worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and any of their<BR>
> > other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
><BR>
> Suppose, however, that the Darrians *hadn't* unintentionally wrecked their<BR>
> homeworld with solar flares back in -924?  The "Spinward Marches" could<BR>
> have easily become "Darrian Empire" instead, which could have easily<BR>
> extended all the way back to the Corridor, or perhaps beyond.  Thoughts?<BR>
><BR>
>                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
Or what happens when the technology gets loose (and eventually it will)?<BR>
What happens when someone publishes the plans to the 'star trigger' on the<BR>
3I's internet equivalent?  Just how hard is it to make a star trigger?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:25:58 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Trevor, Peter writes:<BR>
>Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
>>Maybe this is why Traveller has people manning turrets and<BR>
>>drive rooms when these functions could easily be automated.<BR>
>I think there's a flaw in your argument.  While what you say  may<BR>
>be true for TL 8 control systems, I don't believe it would  apply<BR>
>to TL 15 control systems:  At TL 8 computer systems cannot  think<BR>
>for themselves: they can only respond to situations they've  been<BR>
>programmed for (though it is possible to design  a  system  which<BR>
>can make adjustments based on past performance).  But by TL 15 we<BR>
>have synaptic processors (see robot rules in  CT  and  elsewhere)<BR>
>and thus TL 15 control systems which can think for themselves ...<BR>
>the human 'operator' merely instructs the control system to  make<BR>
>a correction and the control system implements this  using  *its*<BR>
>knowledge and experience of the process in question.  The role of<BR>
>the  human  'operator'  becomes  an  overseer  rather   than   an<BR>
>implementor.<BR>
<BR>
	You are probably right, but as a rationalization for crew<BR>
	beings doing these jobs IMTU it works.  I don't consider<BR>
	that synaptic processors allow thinking in the sense of AI,<BR>
	though it would certainly allow advanced automation.  I<BR>
	would argue that it would be expensive to install and<BR>
	difficult to repair.  Also, strictly IMTU, robot-type<BR>
	'brains' have a limited useful life even at high TL.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:32:39 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk writes:<BR>
>IMTU 'Ratballs' are very common on ships - there are several in most room's<BR>
>emergency lockers. This has two impacts - 1) most people can get into a<BR>
>fully transparent 'Ratball' easily. 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
>it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people 'running' down<BR>
>a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
>It is assumed that crewbeings or vacc suit trained personel will assist the<BR>
>ratballs out of the ship. Also, I require Vacc suit skill to wear a vacc<BR>
>suit (at least Vacc Suit - 0).<BR>
<BR>
	I allow anyone to don a vacc suit, but without at least Vacc Suit 0<BR>
	(either you or a buddy helping you) there is a chance that the suit<BR>
	has been improperly donned and will leak, fail to provide air, cook,<BR>
	etc.  The survival balls are OK as long as they fit through doors.<BR>
	If they are spherical, that means that 1.5 m diameter iris valves<BR>
	restrict the balls to 4' 11"... lots of room but running is difficult<BR>
	and standing straight impossible for the average human.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:37:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
> IMTU 'Ratballs' are very common on ships - there are several in<BR>
> most room's<BR>
> emergency lockers. This has two impacts - 1) most people can get into a<BR>
> fully transparent 'Ratball' easily. 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
> it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people<BR>
> 'running' down<BR>
> a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
><BR>
> It is assumed that crewbeings or vacc suit trained personel will<BR>
> assist the<BR>
> ratballs out of the ship. Also, I require Vacc suit skill to wear a vacc<BR>
> suit (at least Vacc Suit - 0).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I like the term 'Rat balls'.  We based our EPLS balls on the NASA emergency<BR>
device.  On ships that carry passengers, vacc suits aren't going to be cost<BR>
effective or even desirable.  As you say, Vacc suits require skill, and do<BR>
we really want a bunch of panicked passengers running about the ship in<BR>
their vacc suits.<BR>
<BR>
The EPLS is small and stows easily.  It's cheap compared with a vacc suit,<BR>
and easy to use (get in, put on mask, zip closed--there are probably cartoon<BR>
type instruction on how to use).  They are relatively non-species specific.<BR>
And the wearer can't cause lots of trouble once inside.  Set it up so that<BR>
the air pack vents a very benign, pan-species tranquilizer like some kind of<BR>
benzodiazapene, and a lock to prevent opening in a vacuum.  Of course, these<BR>
folks will be easy picking for boarders.  Most PCs will probably prefer to<BR>
bring their own vacc suits.<BR>
<BR>
As above, crew beings, or rescue personnel will be required to assist<BR>
passengers, and EPLS ball will be equipped with radio beacons and high<BR>
intensity flashers.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU, I cost these out at about Cr1000, and every ship is required to have<BR>
one for every passenger/crewbeing (like a life jacket). In a tranquilized<BR>
state, someone can last 24 hours on internal air, and longer with external<BR>
supplies.  These are only designed for short duration, though, or it's going<BR>
to get messy.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:45:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Or what happens when the technology gets loose (and eventually it will)?<BR>
> What happens when someone publishes the plans to the 'star trigger' on the<BR>
> 3I's internet equivalent?  Just how hard is it to make a star trigger?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know that much about the history of "the New Era," but one <BR>
natural question comes to mind: did the Virus ever get its grubby paws<BR>
on Darrian "star trigger" technology?  That would be pretty ugly...<BR>
<BR>
                                                           - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:49:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets (was RE: TML landgrab: Esalin)<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Tempest writes:<BR>
> Vincennes/Deneb 1122  A899AA6-G Hi In Cp -113 (as of 1117) is that<BR>
> wonderful thing, a TL16 *industrial* world in the Domain of Deneb.<BR>
> It's in a multiple star system, with mean temperatures ranging from<BR>
> 66C to -20C and violent storms.  Most of the population lives under<BR>
> the sea, or in grav cities that can climb above any unpleasant<BR>
> weather.  Food is grown on an agricultural planet in the same star<BR>
> system.  According to the Regency Sourcebook, in 1202 Vincennes is on<BR>
> the cusp of entering TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Gaekloungoerza/Gvurrdon 2129  A697A78-G   Hi In 834 Va is another good example.<BR>
80 billion TL-16 vargr is a bit worrisome too.<BR>
<BR>
Deneb has three TL-G worlds (vincennes, pashus, and depot).<BR>
Corridor has one, Kaasu 1209 (pop 9 billion).  Class-A port.<BR>
Vland has two, Lukham 1334 and Gemid 1902 (total 67 billion).  Class-A ports.<BR>
Lishun has seven (two major), total population 81 billion and change.  Class-A<BR>
Antares has two (one major), total population 9 billion and change.  Class-B<BR>
Vanguard Reaches has one, 0736 Helix Insitute, pop 10,000<BR>
Gushemege has 4, total 10 billion and change.  Only half have class-A ports.<BR>
Dagudashaag has 4, total 12 billion and change.  Class-A ports.<BR>
Core has 8, total 66 billion and change.  All the major worlds are class-B.<BR>
Fornast has 6, total 19 billion+.  9 billion with class-A ports.<BR>
Ley has 2, total 7 billion+.  Class-A ports.<BR>
Verge has 3, total 2 billion+.  Class-B port.<BR>
Ilelish has 10, total 217 billion+.  Only 96 billion have class-A ports.<BR>
Massilia has 24, total huge<BR>
Delphi has 3, population 680,000.<BR>
Glimmerdrift Reachs has one, population 1 billion (unaligned).<BR>
Ftaoiyekyu has one, popluation 400,000 (aslan)<BR>
Afawahisa has one, population 90 billion (aslan)<BR>
Old Expanses has one, population 70 billion<BR>
Ustral Quadrant has one, population 20 billion (non-aligned)<BR>
Aldebaran has De Hamylton, which I reduced to only TL-G.  It could probably be made TL-H, the Sollies need an edge.<BR>
Neworld has two, population 100k+.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:48:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : medical personel in navies of the 3I<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :-<BR>
> What sort of medical personel are to be found on warships in and around the 3I?<BR>
> EMTs, paramedics, doctors, surgeons, pathologists, psychologists,<BR>
> dentists, proctologists... ?<BR>
<BR>
I think Mark Cook would have more information about RW military<BR>
organisation of such personnel.<BR>
<BR>
Given traditional crewing levels (1/120 crew/high/mid passengers and<BR>
1/20 low/frozen watch), the majority of personnel will be paramedics or<BR>
nurses, proficient in trauma resuscitation, general first aid, and basic<BR>
'space medicine' (acute management of vacuum exposure, jump sickness,<BR>
etc.) At best, these people will hold senior NCO ranks.<BR>
<BR>
Officer ranks will be made up of medical and senior nursing staff.<BR>
Ratio of enlisted to officer personnel probably 10:1 or better.<BR>
<BR>
Given the complexity of modern medicine, IMHO all the medics will need<BR>
high levels of minimum competency in anaethesiology, basic surgery, and<BR>
trauma management (e.g. reducing fractures)... not terribly different<BR>
from a good general practitioner.<BR>
<BR>
Beyond this, there must be opportunities for specialisation on larger<BR>
vessels (e.g. the neurosurgeon [obstetrician?] may not be on duty this<BR>
watch, but is always on call), given the need for self-sufficiency -<BR>
help is a long way away!<BR>
<BR>
The presence of automeds and expert systems at middling-high tech levels<BR>
must also make a difference (reducing the requirement for expert<BR>
personnel somewhat).<BR>
<BR>
Different cultures might have some variations on the basic theme, e.g.<BR>
the Zhodani Tavr'chedl might play the role of morale<BR>
officer/chaplain/psychiatrist ; and in the Vilani tradition the security<BR>
chief, safety officer and flight surgeon might all be the same person*.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
* heretical idea I floated over on the Trav-Culture list.<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:54:32 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> It's bad enough that we already have systems that<BR>
> seem to exhibit 'personalities' now.  Has anyone considered the problems<BR>
> that might be encountered with highly 'intelligent or autonomous' systems in<BR>
> the future.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Some folks at GDW wrote an essay about that once.  I think it's called<BR>
"Traveller:  The New Era."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:54:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > I think there's a flaw in your argument.  While what you say  may<BR>
> > be true for TL 8 control systems, I don't believe it would  apply<BR>
> > to TL 15 control systems:  At TL 8 computer systems cannot  think<BR>
> > for themselves: they can only respond to situations they've  been<BR>
> > programmed for (though it is possible to design  a  system  which<BR>
> > can make adjustments based on past performance).  But by TL 15 we<BR>
> > have synaptic processors (see robot rules in  CT  and  elsewhere)<BR>
> > and thus TL 15 control systems which can think for themselves ...<BR>
> > the human 'operator' merely instructs the control system to  make<BR>
> > a correction and the control system implements this  using  *its*<BR>
> > knowledge and experience of the process in question.  The role of<BR>
> > the  human  'operator'  becomes  an  overseer  rather   than   an<BR>
> > implementor.<BR>
> <BR>
> Great.  Who's to say a systems that can 'think for itself' won't be<BR>
> subject to all the mental vagarities of a human operator. What<BR>
> happens when the system has the electronic equivalent of a 'bad day',<BR>
> 'nervous breakdown' or 'performance anxiety'? It's bad enough that<BR>
> we already have systems that seem to exhibit 'personalities' now.<BR>
> Has anyone considered the problems that might be encountered with<BR>
> highly 'intelligent or autonomous' systems in the future.<BR>
<BR>
Well strictly speaking there is a difference between  just  using<BR>
synaptic processors and full blown AI ... on the other hand  with<BR>
AI you can get situations like the one described in Adventure  1:<BR>
Kinunir (the original Traveller advanture).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> "Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
> "I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
> "Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
> "It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you<BR>
> know.  Its all 'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY<BR>
> needs? I think we should talk about our relationship."<BR>
<BR>
ROFL!  Reminds me of several scenes from the Hitch-Hikers Guide.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:07:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
> > "Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
> > "I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
> > "Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
> > "It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you<BR>
> > know.  Its all 'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY<BR>
> > needs? I think we should talk about our relationship."<BR>
><BR>
> ROFL!  Reminds me of several scenes from the Hitch-Hikers Guide.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
To steal from H-HG<BR>
<BR>
"Computer, if you don't lock and fire RIGHT NOW, I'm going straight over to<BR>
your main databanks with a very large axe and give you a reprogramming<BR>
you'll never forget!"<BR>
<BR>
Do we REALLY want AI?<BR>
<BR>
Captain: "Why haven't we jumped yet?"<BR>
Pilot: "It's the nav computer, sir.  It's sulking"<BR>
Capt: "WHAT NOW?!"<BR>
Pilot: "It heard that the targeting systems just go upgraded memory, and it<BR>
didn't"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:10:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> You are probably right, but as a rationalization for crew<BR>
> beings doing these jobs IMTU it works.  I don't consider<BR>
> that synaptic processors allow thinking in the sense of AI,<BR>
> though it would certainly allow advanced automation.  I<BR>
> would argue that it would be expensive to install and<BR>
> difficult to repair.  Also, strictly IMTU, robot-type<BR>
> 'brains' have a limited useful life even at high TL.<BR>
<BR>
I don't consider synaptic processors *alone* to be enough for  AI<BR>
either (I have to  be  careful  about  phrases  like  "think  for<BR>
themselves").<BR>
<BR>
IMTU the SPU (synaptic processor unit) is essentially  a  heavily<BR>
modified  robot  brain,  and  is  part  of  many  shipboard  sub-<BR>
computers.  Its a modular component which can  be  unplugged  and<BR>
replaced  every  x  years  as  part  of  the  annual  maintenance<BR>
overhaul.  The SPU cost is included  in  the  shipboard  computer<BR>
price and so is not a factor.  However, SPUs have zero initiative<BR>
... shipboard computers have capabilities not unlike those  shown<BR>
on ST:TNG, or the Liberator's *secondary* computers on Blake's 7.<BR>
(But put an AI in charge and you're asking for trouble.)<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:14:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
> Well strictly speaking there is a difference between  just  using<BR>
> synaptic processors and full blown AI ... on the other hand  with<BR>
> AI you can get situations like the one described in Adventure  1:<BR>
> Kinunir (the original Traveller advanture).<BR>
<BR>
True, but whose to say that even synaptic processors won't be vulnerable to<BR>
'oddities'.  Complex systems get quirks.  So maybe every once in a while,<BR>
the systems has 'seizures'.  There is a perfectly rational reason (induced<BR>
current building up and then discharging across the synapses), but it's<BR>
easier to think of in terms the operator understands.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:44:57 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > Well strictly speaking there is a difference between  just  using<BR>
> > synaptic processors and full blown AI ... on the other hand  with<BR>
> > AI you can get situations like the one described in Adventure  1:<BR>
> > Kinunir (the original Traveller advanture).<BR>
> <BR>
> True, but whose to say that even synaptic processors won't be<BR>
> vulnerable to 'oddities'.  Complex systems get quirks.  So<BR>
> maybe every once in a while, the systems has 'seizures'.  There<BR>
> is a perfectly rational reason (induced current building up and<BR>
> then discharging across the synapses), but it's easier to think<BR>
> of in terms the operator understands.<BR>
<BR>
Then there is "emergent behaviour" or accidental sentience  which<BR>
is covered in GURPS Robots (and is also one of the  themes  of  a<BR>
non-Traveller RPG I  am  developing).  But  IIRC  complex  system<BR>
quirks only occur in CT/MT when the technology  used  is  cutting<BR>
edge.  We tend to expect such oddities today because the pace  of<BR>
technical change (and equipment specification) is relatively fast<BR>
... today's top-of-the-range PC is tomorrows  entry-level  PC  is<BR>
the day after's piece of junk.  In the 3I the rate of  technology<BR>
change has slowed (though I don't think, as  some  do,  that  the<BR>
3I's TL 15  represents  a  developmental  'plateau').  With  slow<BR>
technology  advancement  comes  an  improvement   in   technology<BR>
reliability.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:11:14 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Delphi Sector<BR>
<BR>
Moin Lewis Roberts,<BR>
<BR>
> Is there actual UWPs for this sector?  I was writing up a world and I didn't see<BR>
> any UWPs that I liked, so I figured if I put it in Delphi I wouldn't have to<BR>
> worry about canon.  I looked in Galactic and didn't see any stats for it there,<BR>
> so I figured there weren't any.<BR>
<BR>
  They had been in the DGP 2nd Survey Archive. I've attached them in a<BR>
  private mail. GAL is not as complete as DGP. Take first a look at :<BR>
<BR>
      http://traveller.copyleft.de/3rd-survey/html/classic.html<BR>
<BR>
  You'll note that some of the systems have incomplete information ;-(<BR>
  call it a feature of DGP ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:18:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/10/00 6:24 AM, Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
> it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people 'running' down<BR>
> a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
<BR>
I want to see this in a scifi movie. I /will/ use this IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
<boink> Coming through! <boink> Excuse me. <boink> Pardon me...<BR>
<boink><boink> Sorry! <boink> Move aside. <boink><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:34:33 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
<BR>
Guys I'm on again-off-again with following the evolution of the Traveller <BR>
Universe. I know that T5 was due out soon, I know that CT was rereleased. I <BR>
know that GURPS Traveller has taken off like sky rockets and in my humble <BR>
opinion believe it is responsible arguably for the rekindling of interest in <BR>
the Traveller Universe (in my neighborhood it is anyway). <BR>
<BR>
The "official" Traveller news sites are vague on this -- what is happening <BR>
out there? What is the status of T5? Anybody know? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:38:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
> > it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people<BR>
> 'running' down<BR>
> > a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
><BR>
> I want to see this in a scifi movie. I /will/ use this IMTU.<BR>
><BR>
> <boink> Coming through! <boink> Excuse me. <boink> Pardon me...<BR>
> <boink><boink> Sorry! <boink> Move aside. <boink><BR>
><BR>
Someone else mentioned previously that the 'rat balls' should fit through an<BR>
airlock.  Users will need to be in a sitting, or kneeling position, so trav<BR>
will be via a series of somersaults, rather than like running in a 'freedom<BR>
ball'.  After a few rolls, most users will get pretty dizzy.  More like<BR>
<BR>
<boink> ugg! <boink> whoa <boink> I feel dizzy <roll> wrong way <boink> ung<BR>
<roll> I'm going to be sick!<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:41:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
<BR>
> The "official" Traveller news sites are vague on this -- what is<BR>
> happening<BR>
> out there? What is the status of T5? Anybody know?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I'd like to know myself.  What is the thrust of T5.  More like CT or T4.<BR>
What's getting fixed?  I already have CT,MT,TNE,T4 and GT.  What new and<BR>
exiting that will make me want T5.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Still using CT" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:51:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
> > I plug all the holes and fill the ship with HF gas, or some<BR>
> such other that<BR>
> > will attack vacc suits seals.  I make sure to let the holdouts<BR>
> know before<BR>
> > hand.  Have they prepped for a corrosive atmosphere like I have?<BR>
><BR>
> HF isn't nearly as corrosive in the absence of *water*. It'd also tend<BR>
> to damage the gear you are interested in *faster* than it damages the<BR>
> suits (which are likely to use fluorocarbon plastics in their seals).<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Note above "or some such other".  I merely suggested any corrosive targeting<BR>
pressure suits.  For all I know it's a butyl rubber eating bacteria or<BR>
targeted enzyme (or nanite, for that matter).  Given preparation, suits<BR>
will, I expect, be a poor defense just as fixed fortifications are no<BR>
defense against a prepared army.<BR>
<BR>
Note "prepared" appearing several times.<BR>
<BR>
I can think of several dozen strategies for getting vacc suited holdouts to<BR>
surrender.  Perhaps something as simple as low frequency sound sent through<BR>
the decking. Something at just the right frequency to rattle teeth or loosen<BR>
sphincter muscles.  You get the idea.  Anyone in a fixed location, even with<BR>
food and air, will be at the mercy of the attackers, who will have time,<BR>
resources and the ability to rotate personnel on their side.<BR>
<BR>
Just curious, but putting then shoe on the other foot, what is you strategy<BR>
for getting holdout to surrender?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2745<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2746<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
RE: Boarding<BR>
Re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:59:29 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Jimmy Simpson:<BR>
> Most of the TL 16 worlds are in the main developed sectors of the<BR>
> Imperium.  The closest to the Spinward Marches is, I believe, Depot,<BR>
> in Deneb.<BR>
<BR>
There's three in Deneb; Depot, Pashus, and Vincennes.  Of the three,<BR>
Vincennes is the jewel.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Tempest:<BR>
> Persnally I'm a bit doubtful about these TL16 Depot facilities -<BR>
> shouldn't that imply a TL 16 Imperial Navy?<BR>
<BR>
There aren't enough TL16 worlds to support the whole Navy.  There may<BR>
be some TL16 squadrons in places though, particularly Massilia.  See my<BR>
comments below.  <BR>
<BR>
Commander X:<BR>
> But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in Aldebaran<BR>
> Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to 40<BR>
> Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
> J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
> using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  As I recall some of the sectors in that database were fan-built, and<BR>
I personally consider that data suspect.  :)  As they say, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I wasn't quite ready to say anything, since I'm still playing with the<BR>
data, but this seems an appropriate time.  I've got a page with a few<BR>
graphs up which makes clear some interesting information on the relation<BR>
between population and tech level in Charted Space (the 35 sector area<BR>
in ATLAS OF THE IMPERIUM).  I used the revised DGP sector files which<BR>
originally were from GEnie; they're a bit buggy but I think I got some<BR>
reasonable data from them.<BR>
<BR>
The interesting result: a quarter of the population of Charted Space<BR>
lives at tech-15 or above.  :)<BR>
<BR>
  http://www.ima.umn.edu/~bonnevil/traveller/tlcharted.html<BR>
<BR>
On another note, I've gotten my Striker GDP calculation script working<BR>
correctly now.  Results aren't typed up, but it turns out that two worlds<BR>
in Massilia are tied for most productive world in Charted Space; one of<BR>
them is Kaggushus, the old RoM capital.  It's a tech-16 "Hi In Po" with<BR>
90 billion inhabitants.  :) <BR>
 <BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:58:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > The "official" Traveller news sites are vague on this -- what<BR>
> > is happening out there? What is the status of T5? Anybody know?<BR>
><BR>
> I'd like to know myself.  What is the thrust of T5.  More like<BR>
> CT or T4.  What's getting fixed?  I already have CT,MT,TNE,T4<BR>
> and GT.  What new and exiting that will make me want T5.<BR>
<BR>
From what Marc Miller has 'published' through the TML,  T5  seems<BR>
to be to T4 what MT was to CT (in fact T5 was  originally  called<BR>
T4.1).<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:02:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits <BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> Someone else mentioned previously that the 'rat balls' should <BR>
> fit through an airlock.  Users will need to be in a sitting, or<BR>
> kneeling position, so trav will be via a series of somersaults,<BR>
> rather than like running in a 'freedom ball'.  After a few<BR>
> rolls, most users will get pretty dizzy.  More like<BR>
> <BR>
> <boink> ugg! <boink> whoa <boink> I feel dizzy <roll> wrong <BR>
> way <boink> ung <roll> I'm going to be sick!<BR>
<BR>
Which probable explains why the  illustrations  of  rescue  balls<BR>
started out as transparent, but then changed  to  opaque  with  a<BR>
small window: the "ick" factor would be less noticeable.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:08:17 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Steven Bonneville wrote:<BR>
> Stephen Tempest:<BR>
> > Persnally I'm a bit doubtful about these TL16 Depot facilities -<BR>
> > shouldn't that imply a TL 16 Imperial Navy?<BR>
> <BR>
> There aren't enough TL16 worlds to support the whole Navy.  There may<BR>
> be some TL16 squadrons in places though, particularly <BR>
> Massilia.<BR>
<BR>
There's also the issue of spare parts availability in  the  field<BR>
(for both general wear-and-tear and battle damage repairs).  A TL<BR>
16 fleet will have a spare parts supply line stretching  all  the<BR>
way back to the nearest friendly TL 16 world.  Very  long  supply<BR>
lines are not good tactically.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:15:55 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Steven Bonneville writes:<BR>
<BR>
> The interesting result: a quarter of the population of Charted Space<BR>
> lives at tech-15 or above.  :)<BR>
> <BR>
>   http://www.ima.umn.edu/~bonnevil/traveller/tlcharted.html<BR>
<BR>
Compare with http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html , which includes<BR>
that computation.  I'm using a mildly variant computation of the population digit (see the notes), which might have minor statistical effects, but should only be a couple percent different.<BR>
> <BR>
> On another note, I've gotten my Striker GDP calculation script working<BR>
> correctly now.  Results aren't typed up, but it turns out that two worlds<BR>
> in Massilia are tied for most productive world in Charted Space; one of<BR>
> them is Kaggushus, the old RoM capital.  It's a tech-16 "Hi In Po" with<BR>
> 90 billion inhabitants.  :) <BR>
<BR>
The 'Po' might be a problem, doesn't that reduce GWP?  It does in Far Trader.<BR>
I'd try Wynd in Massilia, with the same population and starport, but 'Hi In Na' instead of 'Hi In Po'.  Teahehwaih in Afawahisa is also 90 billion/TL-G/Port-A, with 'Hi In'.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:45:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 10:36 AM,  Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Now we all know that canonically, once a society reaches TL16 then *bad*<BR>
>> things happen. The TL17 Sambiquis <sp> must have passed through TL16 so<BR>
>> quickly, that by the time the bad things caught up with them they were<BR>
>> already TL17.<BR>
<BR>
Hum, well, those that *created* the Sambiquis didn't fare too well,<BR>
now did they?  And their creations seem to be pepetually stalled<BR>
<BR>
>Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before their karma<BR>
>finally caught up with them?<BR>
<BR>
That's a good question.  Maybe something connected with that fact,<BR>
if it *is* a fact, has something to do with the curse of the "Bad TL<BR>
Rising."<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:48:24 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 05:02 PM,  Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before <BR>
>> their karma<BR>
>> finally caught up with them?<BR>
<BR>
>Precisely <weg><BR>
<BR>
>And note that Vincennes survived Virus, and is now (~1200) about to hit<BR>
>TL17. But "Oh no! What's this! The 'Empress Wave' is about to hit!"...<BR>
<BR>
There's also a threatened super nova in charted space with a<BR>
perdicted MTBF of a couple hundred years.  It *could* go boom at<BR>
virtually any time.  That should give you another wave moving at<BR>
light speed wreaking things over a pretty broad area.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:16:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the Traveller-Culture <BR>
> group:<BR>
><BR>
> Is there anyone other than Jeff who has <BR>
> a problem with e-groups? I don't. I <BR>
> find its utility vastly outweights any <BR>
> implied and unlikely to be realized <BR>
> threat of copyright or ownership from <BR>
> the Yahoo lisence. Why don't we take a <BR>
> survey? I'll close it at the end of <BR>
> this week. <BR>
><BR>
>   o Move! Yahoo's terms are too strict for free discussion of traveller <BR>
> culture. <BR>
>   o Stay! I like the features of e-groups and don't think Yahoo is likely to <BR>
> ever want to steal anything from us. <BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.egroups.com/polls/Traveller-Culture <BR>
><BR>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are <BR>
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups <BR>
> web site listed above.<BR>
<BR>
Since I'd have to *join* egroups com to participate in the poll, and I<BR>
refuse to accept their terms of service, your poll is utterly worthless<BR>
from the start!<BR>
<BR>
Matter of fact, nobody who objects to the terms (and thus *would* be in<BR>
favor of moving the list) can vote. <BR>
<BR>
So the poll is *rigged* deliberately or not. <BR>
<BR>
ps. sorry to clutter the lists with this, but the only "return address"<BR>
in the header was the Traveller-Culture address.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:45:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: An open letter to Stockwell Day<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Dear Mr. Day,<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have<BR>
>> learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as<BR>
>> many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual<BR>
>> lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly<BR>
>> states it to be anabomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from<BR>
>> you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow <BR>
> them.<BR>
><BR>
> ObTrav?<BR>
<BR>
Consider the wacky rules you may encounter on a world with a type D or<BR>
Type E government. The sort of stuff in that letter could be a *real*<BR>
concern for visitors.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:49:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen if they were<BR>
>>> *perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of agression. The other<BR>
>>> worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and any of their<BR>
>>> other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Suppose, however, that the Darrians *hadn't* unintentionally wrecked their<BR>
>> homeworld with solar flares back in -924?  The "Spinward Marches" could<BR>
>> have easily become "Darrian Empire" instead, which could have easily<BR>
>> extended all the way back to the Corridor, or perhaps beyond.  Thoughts?<BR>
>><BR>
>>                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
> Or what happens when the technology gets loose (and eventually it will)?<BR>
> What happens when someone publishes the plans to the 'star trigger' on the<BR>
> 3I's internet equivalent?  Just how hard is it to make a star trigger?<BR>
<BR>
Moderately. You need probes capable of surviving fairly deep inside a<BR>
star, and some rather large meson "gear". Or at least that's how I<BR>
recall it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> There's also a threatened super nova in charted space with a<BR>
> perdicted MTBF of a couple hundred years.  It *could* go boom at<BR>
> virtually any time.  That should give you another wave moving at<BR>
> light speed wreaking things over a pretty broad area.<BR>
<BR>
Hm...which star is that?  Is Deneb unstable?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> >Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before their karma<BR>
> >finally caught up with them?<BR>
> <BR>
> That's a good question.  Maybe something connected with that fact,<BR>
> if it *is* a fact, has something to do with the curse of the "Bad TL<BR>
> Rising."<BR>
<BR>
What happened to the Ancients was Grandfather.  He may be what happened to other high-TL societies as well ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:15:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Compare with http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html , which<BR>
includes<BR>
> that computation.  I'm using a mildly variant computation of the<BR>
population digit (see the notes), which might have minor statistical<BR>
effects, but should only be a couple percent different.<BR>
<BR>
Note that about 6% of the population lives at TL G. Now compare this to our<BR>
world today. We have about 6 billion people, so 6% of our population amounts<BR>
to about 360 million people. The population of the US is about 275 million,<BR>
so we are not too far from the same ratio. (After all, not all of the people<BR>
in the US, Japan, Europe, etc, actually use the cutting-edge technology.)<BR>
<BR>
So if you think of how widespread cutting-edge technology is today, it may<BR>
give you a good estimate of how widespread it is in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<BR>
I must admit that this high TL stuff is a bit of a revelation for me, since<BR>
I have never done any gaming outside the Spinward Marches.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:18:02 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Anyone remember the recent demonstration of the US Navy's automated ship<BR>
>project (powered by windows NT, IIRC)?  A divide by zero error resulted in a<BR>
>helpless ship foundering at sea for several hours.  Oops.<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not sure that something powered by Windows NT would count as<BR>
	"automated."  How about "sabotaged?"  ;)<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:19:08 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>"Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
>"I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
>"Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
>"It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you know.  Its all<BR>
>'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY needs? I think we should talk<BR>
>about our relationship."<BR>
<BR>
	"I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed."<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:20:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Moderately. You need probes capable of surviving fairly deep inside a<BR>
> star, and some rather large meson "gear". Or at least that's how I<BR>
> recall it.<BR>
<BR>
Which is silly, since the obvious way to blow up a star with Traveller technology is to focus a nuclear damper tuned to accelerate fusion on the star.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:31:34 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I bet they *import* as much TL16 (or even *17*) tech as they can from<BR>
> the Darrians, and anyplace else they can. Even if the source is<BR>
> *sectors* away. I seem to recall the pre-Rebellion CT/MT Imperium<BR>
> having a few TL 16 worlds, and there being a TL 17 *somewhere*.<BR>
<BR>
Since Esalin/Jewell is either a co-dominium with the Zhodani (pre-5FW)<BR>
or on the border, I would think the Imperium might not feel really<BR>
comfortable about allowing TL16 imports to Esalin, where the Eeeevil<BR>
Zhodani might get them.  The initial financing might be interesting,<BR>
too.  Not this this should stop you, though the Imperium may try.  :)<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, the Imperium might want let them show off some more<BR>
harmless TL16 technologies for propaganda purposes.<BR>
<BR>
One interesting possibility; while the Imperium and the Darrians might<BR>
not be comfortable with TL16 goods passing through or near Zhodani hands,<BR>
a few Vargr worlds might be able and willing to supply them, and staff<BR>
to manage and fix the devices....<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I first thought that Esalin would be like Berlin too. But then I thought<BR>
> about a rich, non-industrialized, agricultural planet with only 2 million<BR>
> inhabitants. Having only 2 million people to run the entire planet doesn't<BR>
> leave much room for big cities with lots of spy stuff going on. And since<BR>
> Esalin is balkanized, you have the overhead of running more than one<BR>
> government.<BR>
<BR>
Two million is Nebraska and North Dakota, approximately.  North Dakota has<BR>
at least one tribal casino.  :)   Cities may not be huge, but Omaha used<BR>
to have about 350000 people living there.  Is the class-C starport shared?<BR>
The balkanization probably indicates that the Zhodani settlers have their<BR>
own government separate from and possibly parallel to the old Imperial <BR>
colonial government.  Are the Zhodani mixed territorially with the Imperial<BR>
settlers, or do they have their own geographic area?<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:32:26 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 01:10 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> >Weren't the Ancients happily above TL16 for some time before their karma<BR>
>> >finally caught up with them?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> That's a good question.  Maybe something connected with that fact,<BR>
>> if it *is* a fact, has something to do with the curse of the "Bad TL<BR>
>> Rising."<BR>
<BR>
>What happened to the Ancients was Grandfather. <BR>
<BR>
Well, sort of. The Ancients *was* Grandfather and his family. So, he (and his children) was the cause of both the rise and fall of that culture...right? <BR>
<BR>
>He may be what happened to other high-TL societies as well ;)<BR>
<BR>
Yes, he might be, or something he left behind, or something he is hiding from, or he might have nothing at all to do with it. I suppose this is totally an IMTU sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:35:04 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 01:09 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> There's also a threatened super nova in charted space with a<BR>
>> perdicted MTBF of a couple hundred years.  It *could* go boom at<BR>
>> virtually any time.  That should give you another wave moving at<BR>
>> light speed wreaking things over a pretty broad area.<BR>
<BR>
>Hm...which star is that?  Is Deneb unstable?<BR>
<BR>
Somewhere in Antares...maybe Antares itself. It's announced in a TNS post IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:40:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
	Well, I _finally_ chased down a copy of GT: Alien Races 3. (I had the same<BR>
problem trying to find a copy of Seal of the Imperium #1 - you'd be<BR>
surprised at how many game store attendants have never even _heard_ of<BR>
Tekumel).<BR>
	I've only had a chance to browse through it, but overall I thought it was<BR>
quite interesting.  I was very amused by the sidebar arguements between the<BR>
Solomani and Vilani scholars, and had a 'ROTFL' moment over the Vilani<BR>
comment of "Find out what this guy is smoking and get me a kilo of it, will<BR>
you?" - Now, I was not aware that the Vilani had any smokable recreational<BR>
substances that were purchased in kilogram quantities; does that make the<BR>
Sugilii the local "pusher" in addition to their other duties, or is it a<BR>
decadant habit learned from the degenerate Solomani during the Second<BR>
Imperium?<BR>
	The Coyns look like fun, but the inclusion of ideograms for the six major<BR>
races always bothered me...WHEN did Grandfather introduce them to the<BR>
Droyne, and how did he know which species would develop Jump?  (gotta go<BR>
back and check the dates).  Maybe that is what the "Beast" ideogram is for -<BR>
another 'major race' out there with which we haven't yet made contact <evil<BR>
grin>.<BR>
	Also, I noticed an interesting illustration on page 83.  A group of Droyne<BR>
gathered around a cute little dark-haired human girl...who happens to have<BR>
an 'fs' monogram on the front of her overalls.  Is that Ditzie by any<BR>
chance??  One shudders to think what she may be buying from the Droyne.<BR>
Ditzie probably heads up the list of "Sophonts with whom one should never<BR>
entrust an Ancient artifact."<BR>
	On the other hand - am I just a sick psychopath here, or does anyone else<BR>
think that in a dozen years or so Ditzie might make an interesting date?<BR>
Granted, it would most likely be 'interesting' in the sense of the Chinese<BR>
curse ("May you live in interesting times") (the recent "squirrel + .50BMG =<BR>
pink mist" thread comes to mind)<BR>
<BR>
	"...honest Ditzie, I'm not trying to see what's in your pants, I'm not that<BR>
suicidal...I just want to see what's in that waistband holster"  :)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), hoping he hasn't<BR>
offended too many listers with that last bit.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:08:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Just curious, but putting then shoe on the other foot, what is you strategy<BR>
> for getting holdout to surrender?<BR>
<BR>
I posted it the other day. Use a "defocused" beam laser as a "heat<BR>
ray", preferably from 2 or more ships at the same time.<BR>
<BR>
This renders any functional radiators for disposing of internal heat<BR>
useless (thus "refrigeration gear" won't work). And this dumps a lot of<BR>
extra heat into the ship. They can't last more than *hours* against<BR>
such an attack. And people die from heat long before electronic gear<BR>
does.<BR>
<BR>
Countermeasures would be things like having a reserve of very cold<BR>
material, which you can dump heat into. This won't buy you more than a<BR>
few hours with any reasonable amount of material.<BR>
<BR>
Evaporating a liquid will carry away heat too. But again, there are<BR>
limits to the amount of liquid you can carry for this.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the "heat ray" attack will boil off the LH2 *first*, which makes<BR>
using high power gear even harder. And quickly make jump difficuult if<BR>
not dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
And just to forestall an inevitable comment, no, you *can't* insulate<BR>
the crew from the ship. Doing so will kill them *faster, because your<BR>
body heat has to go somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:18:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>><BR>
>>> 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
>>> it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people<BR>
>>> 'running' down a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
>><BR>
>> I want to see this in a scifi movie. I /will/ use this IMTU.<BR>
>><BR>
>> <boink> Coming through! <boink> Excuse me. <boink> Pardon me...<BR>
>> <boink><boink> Sorry! <boink> Move aside. <boink><BR>
>><BR>
> Someone else mentioned previously that the 'rat balls' should fit through an<BR>
> airlock.  Users will need to be in a sitting, or kneeling position, so trav<BR>
> will be via a series of somersaults, rather than like running in a 'freedom<BR>
> ball'.  After a few rolls, most users will get pretty dizzy.  More like<BR>
><BR>
> <boink> ugg! <boink> whoa <boink> I feel dizzy <roll> wrong way <boink> ung<BR>
> <roll> I'm going to be sick!<BR>
<BR>
Which is why the smart ones *crawl* on their hands and knees.<BR>
<BR>
The real problem will be kids. They *are* small enough to run in them.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:47:20 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>The EPLS is small and stows easily.  It's cheap compared with a vacc suit,<BR>
>and easy to use (get in, put on mask, zip closed--there are probably cartoon<BR>
>type instruction on how to use).  They are relatively non-species specific.<BR>
>And the wearer can't cause lots of trouble once inside.  Set it up so that<BR>
>the air pack vents a very benign, pan-species tranquilizer like some kind of<BR>
>benzodiazapene, and a lock to prevent opening in a vacuum.  Of course, these<BR>
>folks will be easy picking for boarders.  Most PCs will probably prefer to<BR>
>bring their own vacc suits.<BR>
>As above, crew beings, or rescue personnel will be required to assist<BR>
>passengers, and EPLS ball will be equipped with radio beacons and high<BR>
>intensity flashers.<BR>
<BR>
	This makes good sense, but would it be better to make it shaped more<BR>
	like a capsule?  Harder to move around yourself, but easier for others<BR>
	to move and more comfortable for the occupant (who can stretch out).<BR>
	Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to move in zero-G<BR>
	and manipulate air lock controls, etc.?  I think not, just put the<BR>
	dirt-siders into opaque (reflective, with perhaps a small tinted area<BR>
	to look through) capsules 2 m long by 1 m diameter (inflated), each<BR>
	with a vacc-suit-type life support unit and standard 16-hour air tank<BR>
	(and 40 minute reserve).  There are no controls on the inside, only a<BR>
	light.  Perhaps a sack and paper for feces (or just a diaper), a urine<BR>
	bottle, a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
	inside.  Fast drug could be handy.  An automatic radio beakon should<BR>
	be included and perhaps three flashing lights.  Occupants would be<BR>
	entirely dependant on crew in vacc suits, which is almost certainly<BR>
	safer than putting them in vacc suits and letting them get into trouble.<BR>
<BR>
>IMTU, I cost these out at about Cr1000, and every ship is required to have<BR>
>one for every passenger/crewbeing (like a life jacket). In a tranquilized<BR>
>state, someone can last 24 hours on internal air, and longer with external<BR>
>supplies.  These are only designed for short duration, though, or it's going<BR>
>to get messy.<BR>
<BR>
	Sounds pretty reasonable.  With Fast drug you could go for an even<BR>
	longer time if necessary, assuming that it can be used safely<BR>
	under these conditions.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:53:56 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I can think of several dozen strategies for getting vacc suited holdouts to<BR>
>surrender.  Perhaps something as simple as low frequency sound sent through<BR>
>the decking. Something at just the right frequency to rattle teeth or loosen<BR>
>sphincter muscles.  You get the idea.  Anyone in a fixed location, even with<BR>
>food and air, will be at the mercy of the attackers, who will have time,<BR>
>resources and the ability to rotate personnel on their side.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Absolutely true.  The defenders can only (at best) hope to buy time.<BR>
	This time might be for friendly forces to return to liberate the ship,<BR>
	to insure that as much intel as possible is denied to the enemy, to<BR>
	just delay the enemy, or possibly to repair systems.  Such<BR>
	considerations may encourage the attacker to move in with Marines<BR>
	sooner rather than later.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:08:01 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >"Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
> >"I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
> >"Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
> >"It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you know.  Its all<BR>
> >'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY needs? I think we should talk<BR>
> >about our relationship."<BR>
> <BR>
>         "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed."<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
".....teach it phenomonology...."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2746<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 10 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2747<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
OT: Italian names<BR>
RE: Star Triggers<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Star Triggers<BR>
Re: OT: Italian names<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: Why you dont date Ditzie (was Re : Alien Races 3)<BR>
Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
Re: Other conflicts<BR>
RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:21:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Commander X:<BR>
>> But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in Aldebaran<BR>
>> Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to 40<BR>
>> Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
>> J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
>> using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
><BR>
> Heh.  As I recall some of the sectors in that database were fan-built, and<BR>
> I personally consider that data suspect.  :)  As they say, YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
TL is 1d6+DMs from a table. <BR>
<BR>
Max roll: 6<BR>
Max Starport mod: +6 (Type A)<BR>
Max size mod: +2 (size 0 or 1)<BR>
Max Atm mod: +1 (atm 0-3, or A+)<BR>
Max Hyd mod: +2 ( A)<BR>
Max Pop mod: +4 ( A)<BR>
Max Gov mod: +1 ( 0, 5)<BR>
<BR>
Now a few of these are incompatible. Even so, it would appear that a DM<BR>
of *14* is possible. With a roll of 6, that gives 20 as the max TL. So<BR>
there could be a TL *L* world (note that I is note used for TLs).<BR>
<BR>
I may write a program to generate all possible combos of "physical"<BR>
parameters (Size, Atm, Hyd) with TL mods, and another to generate the<BR>
same for all possible "cultural" parameters (Pop, Gov, Law). Each would<BR>
be 46,656 items long, but there will be dupes due to forced adjustments<BR>
in the rules. That'll give me stats for how common various things are.<BR>
As well as an "ideal" distribution for TLs.<BR>
<BR>
If the list is short enough, I may even post a list of all possible<BR>
TL16+ UPPs. <BR>
<BR>
BTW, it occurs to me that the badly damaged world data in that one<BR>
product (the one that had one digit be a repeat of another one) may be<BR>
partially salvagable this way. It should be possible to "reconstruct"<BR>
the *possible* values for the "missing" digit by working backwards from<BR>
the TL and other info.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:52:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> There's also a threatened super nova in charted space with a<BR>
>> perdicted MTBF of a couple hundred years.  It *could* go boom at<BR>
>> virtually any time.  That should give you another wave moving at<BR>
>> light speed wreaking things over a pretty broad area.<BR>
><BR>
> Hm...which star is that?  Is Deneb unstable?<BR>
<BR>
Antares.<BR>
<BR>
You only get supernovas with Red giants, some *super*-Giant Type O<BR>
stars (none of which exist anywhere *near* known space), and from white<BR>
dwarfs or neutron stars orbiting close to another star.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:22:14 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
A Star Trigger requires two meson projectors (basic communicators will do)<BR>
in separate hulls and a remote device using vaporized tungsten<BR>
(specifically) for cooling that can  survive to a "reasonable" (undefined)<BR>
depth within the target star. (Stellar class and temperature not being<BR>
mentioned as factors.) This will cause the star to destabilize and "shed" a<BR>
layer of surface material.<BR>
Overall, not that difficult at TL14-15 I would think.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:27:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
> 	This makes good sense, but would it be better to make it shaped more<BR>
> 	like a capsule?  Harder to move around yourself, but easier<BR>
> for others<BR>
> 	to move and more comfortable for the occupant (who can stretch out).<BR>
<BR>
Possibly.  I based my rescue ball on the NASA version.  Spheres have some<BR>
nice pressure properties.  Also, we want to accommodate most if not all<BR>
species (for Aslans it's darn claustrophobic, for small races it's<BR>
positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
why NASA picked spheres? I know that the respirator mask maximizes O2 use<BR>
efficiency, and might also help to block out smells and other unpleasant<BR>
materials from being aspirated.  Anyone care to imagine a multi-species<BR>
breather mask?<BR>
<BR>
> 	Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to<BR>
> move in zero-G<BR>
> 	and manipulate air lock controls, etc.?  I think not, just put the<BR>
<BR>
Is this a good idea?  besides, pressure in the ball is going to make it<BR>
difficult to use the arm.<BR>
<BR>
> 	dirt-siders into opaque (reflective, with perhaps a small<BR>
> tinted area<BR>
> 	to look through) capsules 2 m long by 1 m diameter (inflated), each<BR>
> 	with a vacc-suit-type life support unit and standard<BR>
> 16-hour air tank<BR>
> 	(and 40 minute reserve).  There are no controls on the<BR>
> inside, only a<BR>
> 	light.  Perhaps a sack and paper for feces (or just a<BR>
> diaper), a urine<BR>
> 	bottle, a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
<BR>
Pass on the food.  You can go plenty long without it, and why add to the<BR>
feces problem.  Maybe a nice electrolyte sip tube with an appetite<BR>
suppressant.  Kidneys don't like it if you skip waqter for too long<BR>
<BR>
> 	inside.  Fast drug could be handy.  An automatic radio beacon should<BR>
> 	be included and perhaps three flashing lights.  Occupants would be<BR>
<BR>
aluminize the exterior for max radar signature as well.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure if even a port is helpful, except maybe to look in.  Maybe an<BR>
LC display of calming images ('Don't Panic').. Maybe environmental scenes<BR>
and music to go with traq being pumped in.  Add a subliminal message under<BR>
the music ("everything is ok...there's nothing to be worried about...dum<BR>
deedee dum dumm")<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps shoot in fast drug after a certain period of time, or when a certain<BR>
percentage of air supply is exceeded.  at least if there is no immediate<BR>
rescue, you'll be in a nice drug induced coma, listening to happy muzak when<BR>
the O2 gives out.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Is the Mark II (don't ask about the Mark I) safety capsule designable under<BR>
FFS2?  care to take a stab Ian "Mr. FFS2" Whitchurch?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I need to learn FFS2" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:31:36 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
>         The Coyns look like fun, but the inclusion of ideograms for the six major<BR>
> races always bothered me...WHEN did Grandfather introduce them to the<BR>
> Droyne, and how did he know which species would develop Jump?  (gotta go<BR>
> back and check the dates).<BR>
<BR>
well, now you've stepped in it...;-) This is the crux of the 'Only<BR>
Gramps invented Jump Drive' argument. That all the races that have jump<BR>
drive (found or 'invented' themselves) actually found working or<BR>
non-working examples conveniently placed in their star systems.<BR>
<BR>
The ones classified as 'Major' simply managed to make it look like they<BR>
invented it.<BR>
<BR>
The other key piece of canon evidence for this is that Aslan appear on<BR>
the coyns. It is decidedly canonic that the Aslan reverse engineered<BR>
jump drive from a crashed ROM starship.<BR>
<BR>
There is also evidence that the coyns have changed within the time span<BR>
of the first, second and third imperia; Gramps has come back and fiddled<BR>
with things.<BR>
<BR>
Of course Marc and Loren have categorically stated that the Terrans and<BR>
Vilani did indeed invent Jump Drive on their own. However they may<BR>
simmply be misleading us on behalf of their Hiver masters ;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>         Also, I noticed an interesting illustration on page 83.  A group of Droyne<BR>
> gathered around a cute little dark-haired human girl...who happens to have<BR>
> an 'fs' monogram on the front of her overalls.  Is that Ditzie by any<BR>
> chance??  One shudders to think what she may be buying from the Droyne.<BR>
> Ditzie probably heads up the list of "Sophonts with whom one should never<BR>
> entrust an Ancient artifact."<BR>
<BR>
Run. Don't look back, don't take anything, don't talk to anyone. Run.<BR>
Keep running...when you reach a dozen parsecs outside of known space you<BR>
may look behind you to see the big flash. Then keep running ;-) It HAS<BR>
to be her, though it may be someone from Leeeeegals attemting to buy<BR>
Ancient tech body armor to _protect_ themselves from Ditzie ;-P <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:29:40 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> A Star Trigger requires two meson projectors (basic communicators will do)<BR>
> in separate hulls and a remote device using vaporized tungsten<BR>
> (specifically) for cooling that can  survive to a "reasonable" (undefined)<BR>
> depth within the target star. (Stellar class and temperature not being<BR>
> mentioned as factors.) This will cause the star to destabilize<BR>
> and "shed" a<BR>
> layer of surface material.<BR>
> Overall, not that difficult at TL14-15 I would think.<BR>
><BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
And we were worried about terrorist nukes. This looks like a bunch of items<BR>
that are quite legal to possess, but easily made very dangerous.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:03:47 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Compare with http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html<BR>
<BR>
Yep, your numbers for TL look like they're coming up in the same ballpark.<BR>
Obviously, your messing with the Pop digit will alter things.  :)<BR>
<BR>
> > On another note, I've gotten my Striker GDP calculation script working<BR>
> > correctly now.  Results aren't typed up, but it turns out that two worlds<BR>
> > in Massilia are tied for most productive world in Charted Space; one of<BR>
> > them is Kaggushus, the old RoM capital.  It's a tech-16 "Hi In Po" with<BR>
> > 90 billion inhabitants.  :)<BR>
><BR>
> The 'Po' might be a problem, doesn't that reduce GWP?  It does in Far Trader.<BR>
> I'd try Wynd in Massilia, with the same population and starport, but<BR>
> 'Hi In Na' instead of 'Hi In Po'.<BR>
<BR>
Wynd/Massilia is the world Kaggushus is tied with.  :)  The Na also reduces<BR>
GDP.  There's a couple of worlds in the top ten that could pass them if they<BR>
had another TL or ten or twenty billion more people, simply because they're<BR>
"Hi In" worlds.  I think one was Paran/Lishun.<BR>
<BR>
I'll clarify that by "top ten" I mean top ten GDPs; more like 15 worlds.<BR>
My list will go up once I've got it formatted, with a full explanation.<BR>
<BR>
> Teahehwaih in Afawahisa is also 90 billion/TL-G/Port-A, with 'Hi In'.<BR>
<BR>
Afawahisa is a fan-sector as I recall, and it wasn't in the set I surveyed.<BR>
As I recall, the Aslan are supposedly limited to TL14 everywhere but Kusyu,<BR>
but I'd have to check.  The Vargr and Hiver definitely have TL16 worlds,<BR>
but I'm not sure any showed up in my survey area.<BR>
<BR>
There's a pair of 90 billion/TL-E/Port-A "Hi In" worlds in Aslan space, and<BR>
as I recall they make the top ten for the area I looked at.  One sits at the<BR>
Hierate end of the Riftspan (Wahtoikoeakh/R.R.).<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:05:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se><BR>
Subject: OT: Italian names<BR>
<BR>
I am currently starting up a campaign set in a maffia environment     <BR>
(Boston, 1929). Sadly, none of the players know Italian, and we had a <BR>
bit of a shortage for good names while creating characters. American  <BR>
names are not a problem, but Italian names are worse...               <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
Could some kind soul please mail me (private mail would not swamp the <BR>
list) a list of good names (both person and family names) ?           <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
In addition, some titles (senor, don, padre... and some other common  <BR>
and/or likely ones) would be nice.                                    <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
Thanks                                                                <BR>
                                                                      <BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydhol                                               <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:06:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Star Triggers<BR>
<BR>
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
><BR>
>Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> Moderately. You need probes capable of surviving fairly deep inside a<BR>
>> star, and some rather large meson "gear". Or at least that's how I<BR>
>> recall it.<BR>
><BR>
>Which is silly, since the obvious way to blow up a star with Traveller<BR>
technology is to >focus a nuclear damper tuned to accelerate fusion on the<BR>
star.<BR>
<BR>
	IIRC from Book 4, the nuclear damper was based on having two projectors<BR>
that created that nifty constructive/destructive interference pattern of<BR>
nodes and anti-nodes.  These will either accelerate or decelerate the<BR>
nuclear reactions as different nodes are focused on the target.  Since a<BR>
star is a pretty big target, unless there is a way to tune the wavelength of<BR>
the damper effect waaaay down, you will have many nodes inside the star.<BR>
The fusion process would increase in certain areas, slow in others, and be<BR>
largely unaffected over most of the volume.  This might cause all sorts of<BR>
strange eddies inside the core, which might have who-knows-what kind of<BR>
effects, but I tend to doubt it would be as simple as "push the button and<BR>
the star goes BOOM".  Besides, _how_ long does it take a photon produced in<BR>
the sore of a star to reach the surface?  Was it on the order of thousands<BR>
or millions of years??  I can't remember.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), picturing the<BR>
black-cloaked melodrama villian speeding away in his starship, twirling his<BR>
waxed moustache and cackling "Bwa-haa-haa!  A million years from now and<BR>
'boom', your planet is history"  (and the static-filled radio crackles back:<BR>
"ummmm...ask us why we should care?  We can't ever get worked up over who is<BR>
going to win the presidential election next year.")<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> Possibly.  I based my rescue ball on the NASA version.  Spheres have some<BR>
> nice pressure properties.  Also, we want to accommodate most if not all<BR>
> species (for Aslans it's darn claustrophobic, for small races it's<BR>
> positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
> why NASA picked spheres?<BR>
<BR>
Presumably because that's generally stronger than other shapes, as it has no specific stress points.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:25:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Triggers<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler writes:<BR>
>      IIRC from Book 4, the nuclear damper was based on having two<BR>
> projectors that created that nifty constructive/destructive interference<BR>
> pattern of nodes and anti-nodes.  These will either accelerate or decelerate<BR>
> the nuclear reactions as different nodes are focused on the target.  Since a<BR>
> star is a pretty big target, unless there is a way to tune the wavelength<BR>
> of the damper effect waaaay down, you will have many nodes inside the<BR>
> star.<BR>
<BR>
That's ok.  Make fusion in one area 100x faster, and .01x faster in another area nearby, and you're still 50x faster.<BR>
<BR>
 The fusion process would increase in certain areas, slow in others,<BR>
> and be largely unaffected over most of the volume.  This might cause all<BR>
> sorts of strange eddies inside the core, which might have who-knows-what<BR>
> kind of effects, but I tend to doubt it would be as simple as "push the<BR>
> button and the star goes BOOM".  Besides, _how_ long does it take a photon<BR>
> produced in the sore of a star to reach the surface?  Was it on the order of<BR>
> thousands or millions of years??  I can't remember.<BR>
<BR>
A long time.  However, a sudden increase in temperature in one area would create a fairly massive pressure wave, and sound waves can pass through a star in a matter of hours or days.  Besides, I suspect a damper can cause fusion in the outer layers of a star.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:33:08 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: OT: Italian names<BR>
<BR>
Go reread 'The Godfather', it'll be good for developing the feel, too.<BR>
<BR>
But of course, The Mafia doesn't exist. J. Edgar told me so!<BR>
<BR>
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I am currently starting up a campaign set in a maffia environment<BR>
> (Boston, 1929). Sadly, none of the players know Italian, and we had a<BR>
> bit of a shortage for good names while creating characters. American<BR>
> names are not a problem, but Italian names are worse...<BR>
> <BR>
> Could some kind soul please mail me (private mail would not swamp the<BR>
> list) a list of good names (both person and family names) ?<BR>
> <BR>
> In addition, some titles (senor, don, padre... and some other common<BR>
> and/or likely ones) would be nice.<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks<BR>
> <BR>
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydhol<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:48:41 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:51:57 -0400 (EDT), "Tod Glenn"<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm certainly not saying this WILL be the case, but it MIGHT be.<BR>
<BR>
>"Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
>"I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
>"Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
>"It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you know.  Its all<BR>
>'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY needs? I think we should talk<BR>
>about our relationship."<BR>
<BR>
... at which point I grab some hullpaint, and do some EVA to<BR>
rechristen the ship "Marvin".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:46:43 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Why you dont date Ditzie (was Re : Alien Races 3)<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand - am I just a sick psychopath here, or does anyone else<BR>
> think that in a dozen years or so Ditzie might make an interesting date?<BR>
> Granted, it would most likely be 'interesting' in the sense of the Chinese<BR>
> curse ("May you live in interesting times") (the recent "squirrel + .50BMG<BR>
=<BR>
> pink mist" thread comes to mind)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
In about twelve years she will probably be about the same apparent age she<BR>
is now.<BR>
<BR>
You probably want her "older" sister Winifreda (she's the 'older Ditzie' in<BR>
some of the cartoons).<BR>
<BR>
> "...honest Ditzie, I'm not trying to see what's in your pants, I'm not<BR>
that<BR>
> suicidal...I just want to see what's in that waistband holster"  :)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Please dont take her to a bar. Last time she was in one of them, she took<BR>
all the pretty lights and stuff, and built a particle accelerator that blew<BR>
a hole in the haberdashers next door.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:18:12 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:05:00 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Enter your vote today!  Check out the new poll for the Traveller-Culture <BR>
>> group:<BR>
<BR>
>> Is there anyone other than Jeff who has <BR>
>> a problem with e-groups? I don't. I <BR>
>> find its utility vastly outweights any <BR>
>> implied and unlikely to be realized <BR>
>> threat of copyright or ownership from <BR>
>> the Yahoo lisence. Why don't we take a <BR>
>> survey? I'll close it at the end of <BR>
>> this week. <BR>
<BR>
>>   o Move! Yahoo's terms are too strict for free discussion of traveller <BR>
>> culture. <BR>
>>   o Stay! I like the features of e-groups and don't think Yahoo is likely to <BR>
>> ever want to steal anything from us. <BR>
<BR>
>> To vote, please visit the following web page:<BR>
<BR>
>> http://www.egroups.com/polls/Traveller-Culture <BR>
<BR>
>> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are <BR>
>> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups <BR>
>> web site listed above.<BR>
<BR>
I'm going to have to have some words with eGroups and at least<BR>
one of my subscribers, as I don't recall seeing this come through<BR>
the list itself, and I certainly don't recall being asked about<BR>
this poll or approving it - not that I would have objected, but<BR>
it still would have been nice...<BR>
<BR>
>Since I'd have to *join* egroups com to participate in the poll, and I<BR>
>refuse to accept their terms of service, your poll is utterly worthless<BR>
>from the start!<BR>
<BR>
What problem do you have with the _current_ TOS?  The Yahoo TOS<BR>
won't be implemented until a _minimum_ of two months from now,<BR>
when the deal is officially consummated, and maybe not even then.<BR>
My search for a new home is simply "disaster preparation".  The<BR>
poll is conducted under the _current_ TOS, and membership and<BR>
activity are under the _current TOS.<BR>
<BR>
N.B. As deficient as it is, the original "TravLang" list at<BR>
Execnet is still 'live', although nobody except me is subscribed;<BR>
if it became necessary to move _fast_, I'd go back to that while<BR>
still searching, so we wouldn't "go dead".<BR>
<BR>
N.B. There is uncertainty about whether eGroups will be<BR>
integrated into Yahoo! Clubs or vice-versa, or whether they will<BR>
remain separate but 'branded' services.  There is also<BR>
uncertainty about whether the Yahoo! TOS will be applied after<BR>
the takeover, and there is _no_ way to estimate the likelihood of<BR>
such application - but people are cautious and paranoid, because<BR>
of the GeoCities episode - and when Yahoo! changed the TOS for<BR>
GeoCities, they did _not_ make the corresponding change in their<BR>
other services.<BR>
<BR>
eGroups _is_ quite useful, and has good functionality - and just<BR>
maybe, the support is improving.  But there are a _lot_ of people<BR>
who have experience with Yahoo!, and those experiences are _not_<BR>
promising.<BR>
<BR>
>Matter of fact, nobody who objects to the terms (and thus *would* be in<BR>
>favor of moving the list) can vote. <BR>
<BR>
>So the poll is *rigged* deliberately or not. <BR>
<BR>
>ps. sorry to clutter the lists with this, but the only "return address"<BR>
>in the header was the Traveller-Culture address.<BR>
<BR>
You can always comment to me about Traveller-Culture issues,<BR>
either by going direct to the addy I post with here, or via<BR>
Traveller-Culture-owner@egroups.com.<BR>
<BR>
Followups should be directed to me personally, either at the<BR>
posting addy or at Traveller-Culture-owner@egroups.com.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:34:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Other conflicts<BR>
<BR>
At 19:42 +0000 7/7/00,  "Neal Sofge" <neal_sofge@rand.org> wrote:<BR>
>Illuminati, of course.  Very little combat in that game if Cthulu's<BR>
>not around.<BR>
<BR>
Settlers of Catan?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:29:45 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:05:00 -0400 (EDT), "Rodney Basler"<BR>
<rgb@odetics.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>	Well, I _finally_ chased down a copy of GT: Alien Races 3. (I had the same<BR>
>problem trying to find a copy of Seal of the Imperium #1 - you'd be<BR>
>surprised at how many game store attendants have never even _heard_ of<BR>
>Tekumel).<BR>
<BR>
You'd be surprised how many game stores don't sell RPGs at all,<BR>
and haven't heard of anything besides deeyandee.<BR>
<BR>
>	I've only had a chance to browse through it, but overall I thought it was<BR>
>quite interesting.  I was very amused by the sidebar arguements between the<BR>
>Solomani and Vilani scholars, and had a 'ROTFL' moment over the Vilani<BR>
>comment of "Find out what this guy is smoking and get me a kilo of it, will<BR>
>you?" - Now, I was not aware that the Vilani had any smokable recreational<BR>
>substances that were purchased in kilogram quantities; does that make the<BR>
>Sugilii the local "pusher" in addition to their other duties, or is it a<BR>
>decadant habit learned from the degenerate Solomani during the Second<BR>
>Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
We haven't written that part yet; feel free.  Come on over to<BR>
Traveller-Culture, and I'm sure we'll be happy to help you thrash<BR>
it out.<BR>
<BR>
>	The Coyns look like fun, but the inclusion of ideograms for the six major<BR>
>races always bothered me...WHEN did Grandfather introduce them to the<BR>
>Droyne, and how did he know which species would develop Jump?  (gotta go<BR>
>back and check the dates).  Maybe that is what the "Beast" ideogram is for -<BR>
>another 'major race' out there with which we haven't yet made contact <evil<BR>
>grin>.<BR>
<BR>
Unlikely - the Droyne like Six.  Adding Beast as a 'major race'<BR>
would make seven.  Seven is not Six.  You must always remember<BR>
that Six is important.<BR>
<BR>
>	Also, I noticed an interesting illustration on page 83.  A group of Droyne<BR>
>gathered around a cute little dark-haired human girl...who happens to have<BR>
>an 'fs' monogram on the front of her overalls.  Is that Ditzie by any<BR>
>chance??  One shudders to think what she may be buying from the Droyne.<BR>
>Ditzie probably heads up the list of "Sophonts with whom one should never<BR>
>entrust an Ancient artifact."<BR>
<BR>
Maybe she isn't buying - what might she be _selling_?  Some of<BR>
the FS stuff that's come across the TML has been ... frightening.<BR>
Then, there are the _weapons_.<BR>
<BR>
>	On the other hand - am I just a sick psychopath here, or does anyone else<BR>
>think that in a dozen years or so Ditzie might make an interesting date?<BR>
>Granted, it would most likely be 'interesting' in the sense of the Chinese<BR>
>curse ("May you live in interesting times") (the recent "squirrel + .50BMG =<BR>
>pink mist" thread comes to mind)<BR>
<BR>
>	"...honest Ditzie, I'm not trying to see what's in your pants, I'm not that<BR>
>suicidal...I just want to see what's in that waistband holster"  :)<BR>
<BR>
I dare you to try it - give me a couple of week's notice, though;<BR>
I don't want to be in the same system when she reacts. :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:05:47 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Peter Trevor wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> To modify what I said before: I saw Esalin as being  like  Berlin<BR>
> ... surrounded by farmland about the size of  Germany.  The  rest<BR>
> of the planet  would  be  unexploited  wilderness.  The  delicate<BR>
> political situation would prevent  any  large-scale  colonisation<BR>
> programs, and be a dis-incentive  to  major  corporate  interest.<BR>
> So, in addition to the sporadic  tensions  many  Esaliners  would<BR>
> feel the life of their planet was indefinitely in hold.  At least<BR>
> thats how I play it IMTU.  You don't need the whole planet to  be<BR>
> productive to qualify as "Ri, Ni, Ag".<BR>
<BR>
More on my thoughts on Esalin.<BR>
<BR>
Esalin was colonized in 835, and only fell to the Zhodani in the Fourth<BR>
Frontier War in 1082, and was finally declared neutral in 1098. I am<BR>
assuming that this description is for about 1105, so that the Zhodani<BR>
influence is only about 23 years old, while the history of the colony goes<BR>
back about 270 years. Because of this, I have assumed that the culture on<BR>
Esalin has pretty much been set, and is probably not changed much by the<BR>
events of the past two decades. Further, the Zhodani only had exclusive<BR>
access for about 16 years.<BR>
<BR>
My first thoughts on Esalin many years ago indeed had lots of wilderness.<BR>
Actually I envisioned large dinosaur-like animals running amok! (Digression:<BR>
I have always wanted to do an adventure of some sort involving dinosaurs. I<BR>
never got to play Space: 1889, but going to Venus would have been fun. I<BR>
also always wanted to explore the elemental planes. This waaaay predated all<BR>
of that recent TSR stuff, which I have never seen. The Two Great Adventures<BR>
which I never had.)<BR>
<BR>
My current thoughts are that the Esaliners have basically ignored current<BR>
events and gone about their business as usual, although a few did abandon<BR>
their farms and head for the wilderness. Some are still there today. Some of<BR>
these have established new farms far from civilization, while others have<BR>
continued to live off the land. These renegades may lead to interesting<BR>
adventures for players who happen to be in the right place at the right<BR>
time...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:39:49 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> You'd be surprised how many game stores don't sell RPGs at all,<BR>
> and haven't heard of anything besides deeyandee.<BR>
<BR>
Do you mean the Dexter's Laboratory epsiode "D&DD?" My wife and kids didn't<BR>
understand why I thought it was so funny.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:34:34 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
Steve Bonneville wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Two million is Nebraska and North Dakota, approximately.  North<BR>
Dakota has<BR>
> at least one tribal casino.  :)   Cities may not be huge, but Omaha<BR>
used<BR>
> to have about 350000 people living there.  Is the class-C starport<BR>
shared?<BR>
> The balkanization probably indicates that the Zhodani settlers have<BR>
their<BR>
> own government separate from and possibly parallel to the old<BR>
Imperial<BR>
> colonial government.  Are the Zhodani mixed territorially with the<BR>
Imperial<BR>
> settlers, or do they have their own geographic area?<BR>
<BR>
I envision only one starport, shared by all parties. I'm not sure how much a<BR>
starport costs to set up, but it's probably significant. Probably too much<BR>
to justify for only 2 million people.<BR>
<BR>
I envision the balkanization caused by geographically separated settlements<BR>
which drifted apart over time.<BR>
<BR>
I envision the Zhodani as being in their own geographic area, more or less.<BR>
Not on a separate continent, but beginning new farms of their own on the<BR>
outskirts of civilization. Some Zhodani also live in the cities, of course.<BR>
And there is a part Zhodani ownership in LSP Interchange (the orbital data<BR>
format conversion facility), probably some Zhodani megacorp TBD.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2747<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2748<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Star Triggers<BR>
Re: Star Triggers<BR>
FYI<BR>
RE: Game Stores<BR>
RE: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
Jumping into Traveller<BR>
Re: Oregon <BR>
Re: [new subscriber] looking for Traveller activity<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re: Game Stores<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re: Oregon <BR>
Re: Game Stores<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
The penguins!! They're everywhere, and fashionable!<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Traveller XML<BR>
RE: Other conflicts<BR>
GT-Q: Vehicular Densitometers?<BR>
Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:14:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
I agree - anyone can 'wear' a suit - Perhaps I should have said 'survive in<BR>
a suit'.<BR>
<BR>
As to the ratballs - thus the fun and games.. I had a whole party in them on<BR>
a 1/4th G airless world once.. geeze U cannot ask for much more fun and<BR>
games ;><BR>
<BR>
Yes, I am evil. So?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 9:33 AM<BR>
To: traveller@mpgn.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk writes:<BR>
>IMTU 'Ratballs' are very common on ships - there are several in most room's<BR>
>emergency lockers. This has two impacts - 1) most people can get into a<BR>
>fully transparent 'Ratball' easily. 2) When you have an emergency on ship,<BR>
>it looks funny as all get out. Imagine if you will 10 people 'running' down<BR>
>a corridor in ratballs.<BR>
>It is assumed that crewbeings or vacc suit trained personel will assist the<BR>
>ratballs out of the ship. Also, I require Vacc suit skill to wear a vacc<BR>
>suit (at least Vacc Suit - 0).<BR>
<BR>
	I allow anyone to don a vacc suit, but without at least Vacc Suit 0<BR>
	(either you or a buddy helping you) there is a chance that the suit<BR>
	has been improperly donned and will leak, fail to provide air, cook,<BR>
	etc.  The survival balls are OK as long as they fit through doors.<BR>
	If they are spherical, that means that 1.5 m diameter iris valves<BR>
	restrict the balls to 4' 11"... lots of room but running is difficult<BR>
	and standing straight impossible for the average human.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:48:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Triggers<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:25 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Star Triggers<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Rodney Basler writes:<BR>
> >      IIRC from Book 4, the nuclear damper was based on having two<BR>
> > projectors that created that nifty constructive/destructive interference<BR>
> > pattern of nodes and anti-nodes.  These will either accelerate or<BR>
decelerate<BR>
> > the nuclear reactions as different nodes are focused on the target.<BR>
Since a<BR>
> > star is a pretty big target, unless there is a way to tune the<BR>
wavelength<BR>
> > of the damper effect waaaay down, you will have many nodes inside the<BR>
> > star.<BR>
><BR>
> That's ok.  Make fusion in one area 100x faster, and .01x faster in<BR>
another area nearby, and you're still 50x faster.<BR>
<BR>
errr... no, still 1x. You'd need 100x & 1x to get 50x<BR>
<BR>
> A long time.  However, a sudden increase in temperature in one area would<BR>
create a fairly massive pressure wave,<BR>
> and sound waves can pass through a star in a matter of hours or days.<BR>
Besides, I suspect a damper can cause fusion<BR>
> in the outer layers of a star.<BR>
<BR>
Trouble, is you'd need a damper with a volume of effect on the order of a<BR>
large planet to make an appeciable difference. IIRC the Sun has a volume of<BR>
several million Earth's. If you've got dampers that big you can just point<BR>
then at a planet, weaken its nuclear bonds and watch it disintegrate...<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:25:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Triggers<BR>
<BR>
Matthew Bond writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > That's ok.  Make fusion in one area 100x faster, and .01x faster in<BR>
> another area nearby, and you're still 50x faster.<BR>
> <BR>
> errr... no, still 1x. You'd need 100x & 1x to get 50x<BR>
<BR>
Assume pre-damper, area 1 has 100 fusion/sec, area 2 has 100 fusion/sec.  Total 200.<BR>
Post-damper, area 1 has 10,000 fusion/sec, area 2 has 1 fusion/sec.  Total 10,001 (or about 50x).<BR>
<BR>
> Trouble, is you'd need a damper with a volume of effect on the order of a<BR>
> large planet to make an appeciable difference. IIRC the Sun has a volume of<BR>
> several million Earth's. If you've got dampers that big you can just point<BR>
> then at a planet, weaken its nuclear bonds and watch it disintegrate...<BR>
<BR>
The required intensity is dramatically lower than disintegrating a planet.<BR>
<BR>
The amount of energy required to noticeably disrupt a star is planet-shattering no matter how you go about it.  At least a damper field doesn't require that the energy be provided from outside. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:59:09 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: FYI<BR>
<BR>
My work machine had a major brain disruption today, and it will be a while <BR>
before I can get a replacement -- it may be a week or so before I get back <BR>
online. this address remains usable (hopefully it'll stay that way).<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:05:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Game Stores<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
><BR>
>On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:05:00 -0400 (EDT), "Rodney Basler"<BR>
><rgb@odetics.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>	Well, I _finally_ chased down a copy of GT: Alien Races 3. (I had the<BR>
same<BR>
>>problem trying to find a copy of Seal of the Imperium #1 - you'd be<BR>
>>surprised at how many game store attendants have never even _heard_ of<BR>
>>Tekumel).<BR>
><BR>
>You'd be surprised how many game stores don't sell RPGs at all,<BR>
>and haven't heard of anything besides deeyandee.<BR>
<BR>
	Nope, they can't claim innocence on those grounds - this store is a LONG<BR>
time RGP store and their clearance bins are a wonderful source of obscure<BR>
(and extremely shelfworn) games/suppliments.  It is just their latest crop<BR>
of employees that are painfully hipper-than-thou and rather clueless about<BR>
any game more than 5 years old or published by someone other than TSR or<BR>
Games Workshop.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), sitting on a pile of<BR>
ancient, dusty games that makes collectors go green.<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:24:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Why you dont date Ditzie (was Re : Alien Races 3)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>You probably want her "older" sister Winifreda (she's the 'older Ditzie' in<BR>
>some of the cartoons).<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Please dont take her to a bar. Last time she was in one of them, she took<BR>
>all the pretty lights and stuff, and built a particle accelerator that blew<BR>
>a hole in the haberdashers next door.<BR>
><BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Woo hoo!!  Now _that's_ what I call a date!  Crimmeny, for most dates<BR>
"bringing some protection" means a small, flat packaged latex product.  With<BR>
her, it means a lead overcoat and a dosimeter  :)  What did her boyfriends<BR>
do in high school?  Park the grav car, walk her to the door, shake hands<BR>
with her dad, and turn in the film badge for processing?<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), who just found his<BR>
"Nuclear Device Effects Calculator" again and boy is he happy.<BR>
	(Once had a girlfriend visit me at my old job - she walked into the lab,<BR>
took one look at the half-dozen big red "Caution, Radiation" signs,<BR>
panicked, and never visited me there again...which, in retrospect, was a<BR>
good thing.)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer:  Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:24:53 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: hal <hal@buffnet.net><BR>
Subject: Jumping into Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Hello Folks,<BR>
  After a period of time spent away from the list, I am returning yet<BR>
again <grin>.  For those who wonder what my interests are regarding this<BR>
mailing list, I will briefly state what system of TRAVELLER I am using<BR>
etc...<BR>
<BR>
  Currently, I am using GURPS TRAVELLER for my campaign.  I am running<BR>
what amounts to an Email Campaign for a friend of mine, and I tend to be<BR>
somewhat active in thinking what life is like in the Traveller Universe.<BR>
That is not to say that I am one who lives by canon so much as I look at<BR>
what is supposed to be canon, and if it makes sense, use it.  Those things<BR>
that don't make sense I will tend to challenge and take it from there.<BR>
<BR>
  Gotta run...<BR>
<BR>
   Hal<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:40:11 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon <BR>
<BR>
>From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
<BR>
>Did you know she gave up being a lawyer to do that?<BR>
<BR>
That does sound vaguely familiar.  It's sort of inspiring.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:42:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [new subscriber] looking for Traveller activity<BR>
<BR>
On 7/9/2000 at 5:41 PM Neal C. Oldham wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hello,<BR>
><BR>
>Please excuse me for any breach of etiquette, but I am very interested in<BR>
>returning to Traveller after a two-year hiatus.  However, I was curious if<BR>
>anyone was aware of any currently active PBEM games, any realtime chat<BR>
>games, or any tabletop games in the Pasadena/Caltech area which would be<BR>
>looking for players.<BR>
<BR>
Check out the GRIP Website ( http://www.RPGRealms.com ), particularly the Game Scheduler.<BR>
<BR>
We have 3 Traveller campaigns listed (one of which, Bureau32 is mine but is kind-of in limbo due to Con season). GRIP is a system of tools we have developed to allow users to play any traditional tabletop RPG over the Internet or a Lan. We are currently licensed for use with Traveller (among other systems) and have released a special GRIP: The Traveller Edition box set with a number of specialized Traveller tools along with the Basic GRIP System.<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:44:36 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
On 9 Jul 00, at 15:34, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Which reminds me. Is FF&S *1* suitable for designing a grenade like<BR>
> that? Or should I just wing it?<BR>
<BR>
Kinda. You'd call it a chem/smoke round for burst radius I guess (ie <BR>
winging it within the rules).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:46:39 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Symptom of Age (was: Boarding)<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
[deleted]<BR>
>>Captain:  That's the Corbomite device, recently<BR>
installed.<BR>
[deleted]<BR>
>	Is it just my imagination, or an indication of the<BR>
>average age of the people on this list that most of the <BR>
>Star Trek references are from the original series?  :)	<BR>
>(Classic Trekker and proud of it - Reruns?  Hell, I have <BR>
>memories of the original broadcasts)<BR>
<BR>
Eh? speak up sonny!<BR>
<BR>
I remember begging, wheedling, and cajoling my mom into<BR>
letting me stay up way past my bedtime to let me watch the<BR>
very first episode on the premier night -- and she was glad<BR>
she did, as she became a huge fan as well.  Then she got to<BR>
watch them all again in syndication in the 1970s when my<BR>
brother was little.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:53:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Game Stores<BR>
<BR>
on 7/10/00 6:05 PM, Rodney Basler at rgb@odetics.com wrote:<BR>
> Nope, they can't claim innocence on those grounds - this store is a LONG<BR>
> time RGP store and their clearance bins are a wonderful source of obscure<BR>
> (and extremely shelfworn) games/suppliments.  It is just their latest crop<BR>
> of employees that are painfully hipper-than-thou and rather clueless about<BR>
> any game more than 5 years old or published by someone other than TSR or<BR>
> Games Workshop.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I can't believe a bunch of hippie trendsters aren't well stocked with all<BR>
that goth/vampire stuff.  I've encountered the phomenon you speak of, as<BR>
well.  "Traveller? Wow, dude, is that new?".  My response is usually<BR>
something like "Duuuuude.  Nice piercing".<BR>
<BR>
I must be getting old.  I remember opening those LBBs the first time in '77.<BR>
"At last", I thought, "something cool, as opposed to D&D".  The rest is, as<BR>
they say, history.  Thanks Marc.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:58:51 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
on 7/10/00 6:46 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Eh? speak up sonny!<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember begging, wheedling, and cajoling my mom into<BR>
> letting me stay up way past my bedtime to let me watch the<BR>
> very first episode on the premier night -- and she was glad<BR>
> she did, as she became a huge fan as well.  Then she got to<BR>
> watch them all again in syndication in the 1970s when my<BR>
> brother was little.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth we<BR>
are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and who<BR>
is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:03:21 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon <BR>
<BR>
heh..too funny.  Yes I used to hang out there with her a lot during the<BR>
summer of 1992.  I thought she was nice but a tad bit on the strange side.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 9:40 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Oregon<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
<BR>
>Did you know she gave up being a lawyer to do that?<BR>
<BR>
That does sound vaguely familiar.  It's sort of inspiring.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:09:13 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Game Stores<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 06:53 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I must be getting old.  I remember opening those LBBs the first time in<BR>
>'77. "At last", I thought, "something cool, as opposed to D&D".  The rest<BR>
>is, as they say, history.  Thanks Marc.<BR>
<BR>
Seconded!  I went back to my FLGS every Friday afternoon after that, looking for the next *anything* associated with Traveller, too. Ah, the good old days! <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:34:07 EDT<BR>
From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
I'm sure that there are older guys around here.  I'm 42 and have been playing <BR>
Traveller off & on since 1979 or so.  My memory of those early sessions are <BR>
getting fuzzier every day :-)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:33:16 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
On 07/10/00 at 06:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old<BR>
>Ones' BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller<BR>
>tooth we are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the<BR>
>TML, and who is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not, or wasn't when this last came up...but I was close.  <g> I<BR>
was born 7/15/51 and have been Travelling since 77.<BR>
<BR>
>Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
I have a magnetic core block in my "box of goodies" that I show my<BR>
computer literacy classes, along with a silicon blank, a reel of<BR>
magnetic tape, punched cards, a disk pack, transistors, vacuum tubes<BR>
and some old EPROMs (so students can *see* a chip inside a DIP.  <BR>
<BR>
Here at home, I've got my Timex/Sinclair is in a closet next to my<BR>
CoCo and both are on the shelf above my TRS Model 4p and Gorilla<BR>
Banana serial printer.  I no longer have the TI 99, but I hung onto<BR>
the TI 59 programable calculator with it's mag cards...and the<BR>
programs I wrote for it to create star systems and characters,<BR>
generate trade items, and run combat. <BR>
<BR>
Oh, and my first experience with computers was through programmed<BR>
learning books for CoBOL and computer operations (remember them?)<BR>
that I checked out of the public library in the early 60's.  It was<BR>
several years before I ever actually used..hell, *saw* a computer.<BR>
<BR>
I *really* am an old coot, not that I'll admit it yet. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:42:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: The penguins!! They're everywhere, and fashionable!<BR>
<BR>
Under the heading of cleaning up after ourselves, there's a large photo in<BR>
the August Fortean Times of a baby penguin in a knitted jumper, put on him<BR>
to prevent ingestion of oil from a slick threatening the penguin colony at<BR>
Phillip Island, Tasmania.  It's a green cable-knit turtle neck with little<BR>
sleeves for his flippers.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:48:28<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
At 02:31 PM 7/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> races always bothered me...WHEN did Grandfather introduce them to the<BR>
>> Droyne, and how did he know which species would develop Jump?  (gotta go<BR>
>> back and check the dates).<BR>
><BR>
>well, now you've stepped in it...;-) This is the crux of the 'Only<BR>
>Gramps invented Jump Drive' argument. That all the races that have jump<BR>
>drive (found or 'invented' themselves) actually found working or<BR>
>non-working examples conveniently placed in their star systems.<BR>
<BR>
I always saw this as "these are the races with which we tinkered."  The<BR>
Ancient manipulation would also explain why these races are drawn to the<BR>
stars, they hear the Call of Candory.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, the Templar page is coming.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:55:08<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
At 06:58 PM 7/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
>BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth we<BR>
>are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and who<BR>
>is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
<BR>
<grin> It couldn't be coincidence that I'm listening to Metallica's _The<BR>
Thing That Should Not Be_ as I read this, could it?<BR>
<BR>
I just turned 34 last week, and started playing in 1977.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:15:17 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
on 7/10/00 7:33 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/10/00 at 06:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
>> So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old<BR>
>> Ones' BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller<BR>
>> tooth we are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the<BR>
>> TML, and who is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not, or wasn't when this last came up...but I was close.  <g> I<BR>
> was born 7/15/51 and have been Travelling since 77.<BR>
<BR>
I feel like a stripling. I forgot to mention I am a mere 37, and remember<BR>
watching Neal Armstrong walk on the moon, the fall of Saigon, and The<BR>
introduction of Traveller in '77.  All key moments in history.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "It's not the age, it's the mileage" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:06:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
> Frank. I have just about got a W3C Schema ready for library data - I<BR>
> intend to do a generic application (browser-based) for adding to and<BR>
> using it before I release it, but have a 'minor' <grin> problem that<BR>
> I've not been able to solve for the last two weeks (God, I'm getting<BR>
> slow). How on Earth do I create a definition for the standard form of<BR>
> Imperial Calendar dates (ddd-yyyy) making sure that they have the<BR>
> right number of digits and ranges?<BR>
<BR>
I can think of two ways of doing this, the quick way and the "complete" way<BR>
If you're interested in the complete way, I'll mail that, but I suspect<BR>
you'd prefer the simple way, something like this :<BR>
<BR>
<xsd:simpleType name="imperialDate" base="xsd:string"><BR>
  <xsd:pattern<BR>
value="(00[1-9]|0[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}"/><BR>
</xsd:simpleType><BR>
<BR>
I haven't machine-checked the regular expression, so I may have made a<BR>
mistake, and others with more familiarity with regular expressions may know<BR>
simpler ways of defining the pattern, and I only know of the restriction on<BR>
dates as being 1 - 366 days, don't know what restrictions on years should<BR>
be, but just to explain the reasoning behind the regular expression for days<BR>
:<BR>
<BR>
   001-009  or 010-099   or  100-299         or 300-366     a dash  a four<BR>
digit decimal<BR>
  (00[1-9]  | 0[1-9][0-9] |  [1-2][0-9][0-9] |   3[0-6][0-6]) -     \d{4}<BR>
<BR>
If you want to allow the leading zeroes to be optional, use :<BR>
<BR>
  (0?0?[1-9]|0?[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}<BR>
<BR>
instead.<BR>
<BR>
Hope that helps<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:19:43 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Other conflicts<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney wrote :<BR>
> At 19:42 +0000 7/7/00,  "Neal Sofge" <neal_sofge@rand.org> wrote:<BR>
> >Illuminati, of course.  Very little combat in that game if Cthulu's<BR>
> >not around.<BR>
> <BR>
> Settlers of Catan?<BR>
<BR>
Cthulu is in Settlers too ?<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:31:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org><BR>
Subject: GT-Q: Vehicular Densitometers?<BR>
<BR>
This reply has also been sent to the newsgroups.<BR>
The side view of the Donosev-Class Scout Survey Ship (GT: First In<BR>
pages 38-39) shows a very phallic looking "Densitometer Sensor Arm"<BR>
which I assume is included in the mass of the Survey Module. While<BR>
specs on handheld densitometers can be found on GT p.113, I can't<BR>
seem to find the GURPS Vehicles stats on their vehicular equivalent.<BR>
Since GT:FI p124 describes low-altitude mapping flights by auxiliary<BR>
or grav vehicles "using visible-light cameras, IR sensors, radar and<BR>
densitometer readings" from "a height of about one mile," vehicular<BR>
versions of this sensor obviously do exist. Has anyone worked out<BR>
the GURPS Vehicles stats and operating rules for it yet?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
              | Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |<BR>
              | Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html  |<BR>
              |      Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos      |<BR>
              |    "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium."     |<BR>
              |   Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium   |<BR>
              |  The radio from Toledo will go to(not available  |<BR>
              |            at your clearance). FNORD!            |<BR>
              @==================================================@<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 02:51:15 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
<BR>
"Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com> sez:<BR>
<BR>
>   On the other hand - am I just a sick psychopath here, or does anyone else<BR>
>think that in a dozen years or so Ditzie might make an interesting date?<BR>
>Granted, it would most likely be 'interesting' in the sense of the Chinese<BR>
>curse ("May you live in interesting times") (the recent "squirrel + .50BMG =<BR>
>pink mist" thread comes to mind)<BR>
><BR>
>   "...honest Ditzie, I'm not trying to see what's in your pants, I'm not <BR>
that<BR>
>suicidal...I just want to see what's in that waistband holster"  :)<BR>
<BR>
 This will really depend on what percentage of the hormones in her blood at <BR>
that age are *supposed* to be there. Young Ditzie is hopped up on a <BR>
classified number of classified things to make her smarter and, er, more <BR>
bloodthirsty in her job with FS Leeegals. Assuming she is allowed to grow up <BR>
somewhat normally, and is properly socialized with young males who KNOW what <BR>
she was/is like, she and they will probably not provide a new punchline to <BR>
the old question "Do you smoke after sex?"<BR>
 Three different SF bits come to mind when thinking of Ditzie in her teens: <BR>
The resourcefulness of Galactic Girl Guides and what they often grow into <BR>
(from Starstuck), the young Super-Sleepless from the second half of Nancy <BR>
Kress' "Beggars in Spain", and the line from the movie "Species" ("You made <BR>
it female because it would be more DOCILE!?!?!").<BR>
<BR>
 Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:35:33 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Jul 00, at 11:44, William "Commander X" Prankar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The other TL-H world is an asteroid belt called Alvarez located in hex<BR>
> 0710 of Langere Sector.  UCP: A000100-H As Lo Ni  524 So. 50 belters with TL17<BR>
> Seekers? I don't think so. I wonder what they are researching there.<BR>
<BR>
> But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in Aldebaran<BR>
> Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to 40<BR>
> Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
> J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
> using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
<BR>
> What does the Imperium have to combat this threat?  Well Massillia Sector<BR>
> alone has 24 TL-G worlds...<BR>
<BR>
All of which makes me *highly* suspicious of the GEnie sector data :*><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2748<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2749</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/11/00 6:08:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2749<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Traveller XML<BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Traveller XML<BR>
Re: Traveller XML<BR>
Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
GEnie Sector Data<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:48:45 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:<BR>
> > Heh.  As I recall some of the sectors in that database were<BR>
> > fan-built, and I personally consider that data suspect.  :)<BR>
> > As they say, YMMV.<BR>
><BR>
> TL is 1d6+DMs from a table. <BR>
><BR>
> Max roll: 6<BR>
> Max Starport mod: +6 (Type A)<BR>
> Max size mod: +2 (size 0 or 1)<BR>
> Max Atm mod: +1 (atm 0-3, or A+)<BR>
> Max Hyd mod: +2 ( A)<BR>
> Max Pop mod: +4 ( A)<BR>
> Max Gov mod: +1 ( 0, 5)<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
IIRC GDW themselves applied an arbitary DM of  +1  to  population<BR>
and TL for some of the 3I's older regions  that  they  generated.<BR>
IMHO the standard rules  were  designed  for  generating  'young'<BR>
areas (like the Spinward Marches).<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:54:21 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
On 10 Jul 00, at 20:15, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/10/00 7:33 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > On 07/10/00 at 06:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> > said:<BR>
> > <BR>
> >> So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old<BR>
> >> Ones' BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the<BR>
> >> traveller tooth we are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average<BR>
> >> age of the TML, and who is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the<BR>
> >> list anyway?<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I'm not, or wasn't when this last came up...but I was close.  <g> I was<BR>
> > born 7/15/51 and have been Travelling since 77.<BR>
> <BR>
> I feel like a stripling. I forgot to mention I am a mere 37, and remember<BR>
> watching Neal Armstrong walk on the moon, the fall of Saigon, and The<BR>
> introduction of Traveller in '77.  All key moments in history.<BR>
<BR>
Ah, that's what I love about the TML - you don't have to wait long <BR>
before someone comes along and cheers you up. Now I feel that I'm only <BR>
30, as opposed to being 30 and over the hill. Of course I'm a Traveller <BR>
newbie, having first played it in about 1987 and first owned some when <BR>
TNE first came out.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:22:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>       This makes good sense, but would it be better to make it shaped more<BR>
>>       like a capsule?  Harder to move around yourself, but easier<BR>
>> for others<BR>
>>       to move and more comfortable for the occupant (who can stretch out).<BR>
><BR>
> Possibly.  I based my rescue ball on the NASA version.  Spheres have some<BR>
> nice pressure properties.  Also, we want to accommodate most if not all<BR>
> species (for Aslans it's darn claustrophobic, for small races it's<BR>
> positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
> why NASA picked spheres?<BR>
<BR>
Probably because a cylinder will have *very* uneven distribution of<BR>
stress and strain.  <BR>
<BR>
> I know that the respirator mask maximizes O2 use<BR>
> efficiency, and might also help to block out smells and other unpleasant<BR>
> materials from being aspirated.  Anyone care to imagine a multi-species<BR>
> breather mask?<BR>
<BR>
I expect that the masks will have to be species specific, and even have<BR>
something resembling *sizes*. I use a breathing mask every nite, it<BR>
only covers my nose, and even with 3 (4?) sizes, there are problems<BR>
with getting a good seal. The face masks do fit a wider range of faces,<BR>
but that can be *worse* if you are outside the range.<BR>
<BR>
Just as an example, there's no way a *child* can use an adult mask.<BR>
<BR>
I expect that passengers will be "issued" a mask on boarding, probably<BR>
in a sealed package. The package would have a belt clip or a shoulder<BR>
strap. And the steward would be continually having to "politely escort"<BR>
people back to their cabins to get their mask...<BR>
<BR>
The only other practical alternative would be a mask where you break a<BR>
capsule or some such, which releases a chemical that makes the mask<BR>
mold to your face and then "set".<BR>
<BR>
>>       Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to<BR>
>> move in zero-G<BR>
>>       and manipulate air lock controls, etc.?  I think not, just put the<BR>
><BR>
> Is this a good idea?  besides, pressure in the ball is going to make it<BR>
> difficult to use the arm.<BR>
<BR>
Try "impossible". Without special joints and *something* approaching a<BR>
fit, bending the arm will take all your strength.<BR>
<BR>
>>       inside.  Fast drug could be handy.  An automatic radio beacon should<BR>
>>       be included and perhaps three flashing lights.  Occupants would be<BR>
><BR>
> aluminize the exterior for max radar signature as well.<BR>
<BR>
And to avoid heating problems if you are anywhere *near the life-zone.<BR>
There's a *reason* spacesuits started out silver and are now white. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:42:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/10/00 at 01:09 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>> There's also a threatened super nova in charted space with a<BR>
>>> perdicted MTBF of a couple hundred years.  It *could* go boom at<BR>
>>> virtually any time.  That should give you another wave moving at<BR>
>>> light speed wreaking things over a pretty broad area.<BR>
><BR>
>>Hm...which star is that?  Is Deneb unstable?<BR>
><BR>
> Somewhere in Antares...maybe Antares itself. It's announced in a TNS post <BR>
> IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, Antares is in an evolutionary stage that can't last more<BR>
than 100,000 years, maybe as little as 10,000. That makes the odds of<BR>
it going off rather significant. Especially given that by 1100, it'll<BR>
have been in that stage for at least 9000 years (as I recall, Antares<BR>
is on star maps that are around 4-5000 years old)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:53:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/10/00 at 06:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
><BR>
>>So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old<BR>
>>Ones' BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller<BR>
>>tooth we are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the<BR>
>>TML, and who is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not, or wasn't when this last came up...but I was close.  <g> I<BR>
> was born 7/15/51 and have been Travelling since 77.<BR>
><BR>
>>Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> I have a magnetic core block in my "box of goodies" that I show my<BR>
> computer literacy classes, along with a silicon blank, a reel of<BR>
> magnetic tape, punched cards, a disk pack, transistors, vacuum tubes<BR>
> and some old EPROMs (so students can *see* a chip inside a DIP.  <BR>
<BR>
Drop me a private email asking for it and when I (eventually) get that<BR>
far down in my storage locker, I can mail you a chunk of silicon ingot<BR>
(the stuff they slice the wafers from). <BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I won't part with my remaining 8-level and *5-level* paper tape.<BR>
<BR>
> Here at home, I've got my Timex/Sinclair is in a closet next to my<BR>
> CoCo and both are on the shelf above my TRS Model 4p and Gorilla<BR>
> Banana serial printer.<BR>
<BR>
I have 3 model 4Ps, 2 Model 4s, a model II (with 5 drives :-), a Model<BR>
16B (or 6000, I forget which, it's buried). A few CoCos, several<BR>
MC-10s, a couple of Model 100s, 1 working Model 600, another than I may<BR>
be able to get working, and a third that's nothing but "spare parts".<BR>
And bunch of peripheral stuff for the above.<BR>
<BR>
Also far too many PC, XT, and AT systems, a number of 386 systems. Some<BR>
486s, a couple of pentiums, and an AMD K6-2 300.<BR>
<BR>
There there are the Macs... All but one are "compact Macs".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:01:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/10/00 7:33 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> On 07/10/00 at 06:58 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old<BR>
>>> Ones' BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller<BR>
>>> tooth we are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the<BR>
>>> TML, and who is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I'm not, or wasn't when this last came up...but I was close.  <g> I<BR>
>> was born 7/15/51 and have been Travelling since 77.<BR>
><BR>
> I feel like a stripling. I forgot to mention I am a mere 37, and remember<BR>
> watching Neal Armstrong walk on the moon, the fall of Saigon, and The<BR>
> introduction of Traveller in '77.  All key moments in history.<BR>
<BR>
I remember Mom trying to point out Sputnik one night. And watching the<BR>
first two Mercury launches at school assemblies.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:51:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
> BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth we<BR>
> are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and who<BR>
> is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Had to punch my own cards to run stuff on the IBM 370 at Gonzaga U.<BR>
<BR>
I own a couple of 5 meg 14" disk packs from that era (aquired a *lot*<BR>
later), and I have a 256-byte core plane sitting about 5 feet away. <BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'm only 45.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:03:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>      Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), who just found his<BR>
> "Nuclear Device Effects Calculator" again and boy is he happy.<BR>
<BR>
Gee, how come *I* never get any neat toys like that.<BR>
<BR>
>      (Once had a girlfriend visit me at my old job - she walked into the lab,<BR>
> took one look at the half-dozen big red "Caution, Radiation" signs,<BR>
> panicked, and never visited me there again...which, in retrospect, was a<BR>
> good thing.)<BR>
<BR>
An X-Ray outfit had some old gear they were getting rid of and I got<BR>
the *big* (18 inch?) yellow and purple enameled metal "Radaition<BR>
Hazard" (complete with the big trefoil) sign. We used to have it<BR>
hanging by the microwave in the kitchen. Much to the consternation of<BR>
some visitors. My geiger counter didn't help matters. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:08:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: [Traveller-Culture] New poll for Traveller-Culture<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:05:00 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com<BR>
> (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Since I'd have to *join* egroups com to participate in the poll, and I<BR>
>>refuse to accept their terms of service, your poll is utterly worthless<BR>
>>from the start!<BR>
><BR>
> What problem do you have with the _current_ TOS?  The Yahoo TOS<BR>
> won't be implemented until a _minimum_ of two months from now,<BR>
> when the deal is officially consummated, and maybe not even then.<BR>
> My search for a new home is simply "disaster preparation".  The<BR>
> poll is conducted under the _current_ TOS, and membership and<BR>
> activity are under the _current TOS.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall. I think I got about halfway down the second page before<BR>
I got disgusted. <BR>
<BR>
Also, the fact that the terms showed up as a bunch of *text entry*<BR>
lines didn't help. That's a *damn* stupid way to set things up. Among<BR>
other things I wonder if a lawyer could *edit* the displayed terms and<BR>
signify agreement to *that*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:17:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>No, I just like to point out that "easy answers" usually *aren't*.<BR>
><BR>
> Not in my experience.  The vast majority of obvious solutions function<BR>
> just fine...perhaps they aren't the 100% best solutions, but I'll go with<BR>
> the late General Patton on the difference between "best" and "good" here.<BR>
> Yeah, you'll occasionally wind up with a tragic set of coincidences, but in <BR>
> general the solution to stopping a car is to use the brakes, the solution to <BR>
> being thirsty is to drink water, the solution to a problem that has you <BR>
> befuddled <BR>
> is to ask someone smarter than you.  We recognize such solutions as <BR>
> "obvious" <BR>
> because we have experience with such problems in the past, and these are the<BR>
> solutions that *worked*.  There are probably inobvious solutions that work<BR>
> better, and situations where the obvious thing will screw you up, but I don't<BR>
> think that is the normal case.<BR>
<BR>
Only in situations in which you have *valid* experience. <BR>
<BR>
>> It's occured to me that high pressure air, and all the organics in soil<BR>
>> might be a bit explosive. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> I doubt that the few seconds between broken suction seal and departing<BR>
> grav vehicle will allow sufficient explosive anythings to be generated, even<BR>
> if local atmosphere + some pressure + near-surface soil composition<BR>
> equalled anything explosive - which I think is unlikely, as IMO any unstable<BR>
> reactants like that in the upper soil layer should have already been acted<BR>
> upon.<BR>
<BR>
You don't understand. High pressure oxygen plus organic material equals<BR>
explosion. High pressure *air* is somewhat more forgiving, but the fact<BR>
is that under those conditions stuff *will* react much faster. As in<BR>
the difference between "smolders if heated" and "explodes".<BR>
<BR>
> All you should need to do is foam the mud up a bit.<BR>
<BR>
Who said it was *mud*? Ordinary soil will flow under that sort of<BR>
pressure. And pack down into something that won't foam worth a damn.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:36:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         to look through) capsules 2 m long by 1 m diameter (inflated), each<BR>
<BR>
Without *massive* reinforcing, the middle of that cylinder will do it's<BR>
best to *assume* a spherical shape by getting shorter and bulging in<BR>
the middle as much as it can. A 1 cm wide strip around the middle of<BR>
that cylinder will have over 300 kilograms-force trying to stretch it.<BR>
And as it stretches under that load, the force *increases*.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 23:20:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Frank. I have just about got a W3C Schema ready for library data - I<BR>
>> intend to do a generic application (browser-based) for adding to and<BR>
>> using it before I release it, but have a 'minor' <grin> problem that<BR>
>> I've not been able to solve for the last two weeks (God, I'm getting<BR>
>> slow). How on Earth do I create a definition for the standard form of<BR>
>> Imperial Calendar dates (ddd-yyyy) making sure that they have the<BR>
>> right number of digits and ranges?<BR>
><BR>
> I can think of two ways of doing this, the quick way and the "complete" way<BR>
> If you're interested in the complete way, I'll mail that, but I suspect<BR>
> you'd prefer the simple way, something like this :<BR>
><BR>
> <xsd:simpleType name="imperialDate" base="xsd:string"><BR>
>   <xsd:pattern<BR>
> value="(00[1-9]|0[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}"/><BR>
> </xsd:simpleType><BR>
><BR>
> I haven't machine-checked the regular expression, so I may have made a<BR>
> mistake, and others with more familiarity with regular expressions may know<BR>
> simpler ways of defining the pattern, and I only know of the restriction on<BR>
> dates as being 1 - 366 days, don't know what restrictions on years should<BR>
> be, but just to explain the reasoning behind the regular expression for days<BR>
> :<BR>
><BR>
>    001-009  or 010-099   or  100-299         or 300-366     a dash  a four<BR>
> digit decimal<BR>
>   (00[1-9]  | 0[1-9][0-9] |  [1-2][0-9][0-9] |   3[0-6][0-6]) -     \d{4}<BR>
><BR>
> If you want to allow the leading zeroes to be optional, use :<BR>
><BR>
>   (0?0?[1-9]|0?[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}<BR>
><BR>
> instead.<BR>
<BR>
Negative years are possible. 4 digit negative years. does your<BR>
expression allow for that?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:58:42 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:08:17 +0100<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
><BR>
[me]<BR>
>> > Persnally I'm a bit doubtful about these TL16 Depot facilities -<BR>
>> > shouldn't that imply a TL 16 Imperial Navy?<BR>
<BR>
>There's also the issue of spare parts availability in  the  field<BR>
>(for both general wear-and-tear and battle damage repairs).  A TL<BR>
>16 fleet will have a spare parts supply line stretching  all  the<BR>
>way back to the nearest friendly TL 16 world.  Very  long  supply<BR>
>lines are not good tactically.<BR>
><BR>
That's my point.  The idea of a Depot system is that it's crammed full<BR>
of repair yards and factories producing spare parts for the Imperial<BR>
Navy.  If a Depot is TL16, then presumably all the factories there are<BR>
producing TL16 equipment.  Why bother, when the Navy only uses TL15<BR>
parts?<BR>
<BR>
Or are they storing the TL16 equipment they make, ready for when the<BR>
Emperor declares that the Navy is ready to move up a tech level?<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:18:33 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
on 7/10/00 11:51 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Had to punch my own cards to run stuff on the IBM 370 at Gonzaga U.<BR>
> <BR>
> I own a couple of 5 meg 14" disk packs from that era (aquired a *lot*<BR>
> later), and I have a 256-byte core plane sitting about 5 feet away.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, I'm only 45.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, I went to GU (Class of 84) and took programming classes there when<BR>
I was at G Prep.  I remember that 370.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:18:27 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Leonard replied to Frank:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <xsd:simpleType name="imperialDate" base="xsd:string"><BR>
> >   <xsd:pattern<BR>
> > value="(00[1-9]|0[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}"/><BR>
> > </xsd:simpleType><BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
Being insufficiently informed about XML, I ask: Is there a way to <BR>
specify the date values with numeric limits instead of character<BR>
expressions? The data _is_ numeric, so the limits ought to be specified<BR>
in those terms.<BR>
<BR>
> > I haven't machine-checked the regular expression, so I may have made a<BR>
> > mistake, and others with more familiarity with regular expressions may know<BR>
> > simpler ways of defining the pattern, and I only know of the restriction on<BR>
> > dates as being 1 - 366 days, don't know what restrictions on years should<BR>
> > be, but just to explain the reasoning behind the regular expression for days<BR>
> > :<BR>
> ><BR>
> >    001-009  or 010-099   or  100-299         or 300-366     a dash  a four<BR>
> > digit decimal<BR>
> >   (00[1-9]  | 0[1-9][0-9] |  [1-2][0-9][0-9] |   3[0-6][0-6]) -     \d{4}<BR>
> ><BR>
> > If you want to allow the leading zeroes to be optional, use :<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   (0?0?[1-9]|0?[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}<BR>
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
make that                                     3[0-5][0-9]|36[0-6]<BR>
> <BR>
> Negative years are possible. 4 digit negative years. does your<BR>
> expression allow for that?<BR>
<BR>
Not yet... change "-\d{4}" to "--?\d{4}" (assuming a negative year date<BR>
would be something link 030--1800.<BR>
> <BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:27:10 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
Moin Frank G. Pitt,<BR>
<BR>
> value="(00[1-9]|0[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}"/><BR>
<BR>
  value="([012][0-9][0-9]|3[0-5][0-9]|36[0-6])[-+]\d{4}"/><BR>
<BR>
  but it would be more XML, if date and year are splitted.<BR>
<BR>
  <dtm year="1116" date="123" qualifier="Shipment requested" /><BR>
  to translate them into the following, is easy.<BR>
<BR>
  <dtm qualifier="Shipment requested" format="3I">1116-123</dtm><BR>
  but how about vice versa ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:29:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "William 'Commander X' Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:35:33 +1200<BR>
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
>Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
>On 10 Jul 00, at 11:44, William "Commander X" Prankar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The other TL-H world is an asteroid belt called Alvarez located in hex<BR>
>> 0710 of Langere Sector.  UCP: A000100-H As Lo Ni  524 So. 50 belters<BR>
with TL17<BR>
>> Seekers? I don't think so. I wonder what they are researching there.<BR>
<BR>
>> But also deep in the Solomani Confederation is a tiny world in<BR>
Aldebaran<BR>
>> Sector (hex 2805) called De Hamylton. This tiny vacc world is home to<BR>
40<BR>
>> Billion and they do it all with TL-I (shouldn't that be<BR>
>> J?) technology! UCP:  A100A56-I S Hi Na Va 402 So.  40 Billion Solomani<BR>
>> using TL18 gadgets and disintigrator weapons? Eek!<BR>
<BR>
>> What does the Imperium have to combat this threat?  Well Massillia<BR>
Sector<BR>
>> alone has 24 TL-G worlds...<BR>
<BR>
>All of which makes me *highly* suspicious of the GEnie sector data :*><BR>
<BR>
This data is then obviously Solomani propoganda and disinformation.<BR>
There is NO homeworld for the Templar Secret Masters for they do not<BR>
exist. FNORD.<BR>
<BR>
Remember its all a Hiver manipulation anyway.<BR>
<BR>
This message brought to you by HHG (Humans for Hivers for Grandfather)<BR>
<BR>
\\    //  Commander X<BR>
 \\  //   CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
  T E K   Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //  \\   http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
//    \\  0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:40:06 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Worlds<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 8:29, William 'Commander X' Prankar wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
I wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >All of which makes me *highly* suspicious of the GEnie sector data :*><BR>
<BR>
> This data is then obviously Solomani propoganda and disinformation.<BR>
> There is NO homeworld for the Templar Secret Masters for they do not<BR>
> exist. FNORD.<BR>
<BR>
Your confusion is understandable citizen. Now if you wouldn't mind <BR>
accompanying me to the local friendly SolSec office, I'm sure we can get <BR>
this all straightened out in no time at all<BR>
<BR>
> Remember its all a Hiver manipulation anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> This message brought to you by HHG (Humans for Hivers for Grandfather)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:58:38 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: GEnie Sector Data<BR>
<BR>
> All of which makes me *highly* suspicious of the GEnie sector data :*><BR>
<BR>
As you should be -- Dave Nilsen once said several of those files showed the <BR>
computer equivalent of "a phonograph needle stuck in the groove" (an obsolete <BR>
reference to many these days.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:59:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Samuel wrote:<BR>
> A Star Trigger requires <snip><BR>
><BR>
> Overall, not that difficult at TL14-15 I would think. <BR>
<BR>
Jump Drive shouldn't be that difficult at TL15 either, as it<BR>
is a TL9 technology.  There are many races that pass through<BR>
TL9 (and even TL15+!) without discovering it.<BR>
<BR>
Like Jump Drive, the Star Trigger may be trickier than it looks.<BR>
Whatever that particular trick is will be the Darrian state secret<BR>
people will pop suicide pills to protect.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:06:04 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
> From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
> Subject: Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
><BR>
>  This will really depend on what percentage of the hormones in her blood<BR>
at<BR>
> that age are *supposed* to be there. Young Ditzie is hopped up on a<BR>
> classified number of classified things to make her smarter and, er, more<BR>
> bloodthirsty in her job with FS Leeegals.<BR>
<BR>
Just a quick note.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie works for High Energy Solutions.<BR>
<BR>
High Energy Solutions have 2 traditional 'emnity groups' in Leeegals and<BR>
Maaarketing.<BR>
<BR>
Just as so you know. Planets are annoying to clean up.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming she is allowed to grow up<BR>
> somewhat normally, and is properly socialized with young males who KNOW<BR>
what<BR>
> she was/is like, she and they will probably not provide a new punchline to<BR>
> the old question "Do you smoke after sex?"<BR>
>  Three different SF bits come to mind when thinking of Ditzie in her<BR>
teens:<BR>
> The resourcefulness of Galactic Girl Guides and what they often grow into<BR>
> (from Starstuck), the young Super-Sleepless from the second half of Nancy<BR>
> Kress' "Beggars in Spain", and the line from the movie "Species" ("You<BR>
made<BR>
> it female because it would be more DOCILE!?!?!").<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Among the things Ditzie is on are anagathics. In about twelve years, she<BR>
will be about the same age she is now.<BR>
<BR>
Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did tell<BR>
you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a calculator and pen<BR>
and paper, right ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2749<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2750<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: High Tech Planets<BR>
Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Stranded On The Flats Of The Demand Curve<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Ditzie Growing up<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:18:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR>
> Or are they storing the TL16 equipment they make, ready for when the<BR>
> Emperor declares that the Navy is ready to move up a tech level?<BR>
<BR>
Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
*know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules?  Would, for<BR>
instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
something similiar]" ?<BR>
                                                        - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:34:02 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> You don't understand. High pressure oxygen plus organic material <BR>
> equals explosion. High pressure *air* is somewhat more forgiving, but <BR>
> the fact is that under those conditions stuff *will* react much faster. <BR>
> As in the difference between "smolders if heated" and "explodes". <BR>
<BR>
How much organic materal is needed?  Would, say, a mud slough be<BR>
more dangerous than a sand dune?  <BR>
<BR>
How much pressure are we talking about to break the seal that has the<BR>
grav vehicle stuck?  Is it sufficient to be a danger, both in <BR>
quantity compressed and in duration of the effect?  Will it be <BR>
enough to bother a Grav Tank, or will it simply make it easier<BR>
for the Grav Tank to free itself?<BR>
<BR>
Does it matter that the organic material is mainly in solid and liquid<BR>
form, rather than in any kind of aerosol mixture?<BR>
<BR>
Lack of valid experience, I suppose - I've never heard of pressurized<BR>
air introduced to soil causing explosions.<BR>
<BR>
>> All you should need to do is foam the mud up a bit. <BR>
><BR>
> Who said it was *mud*? Ordinary soil will flow under that sort of <BR>
> pressure. And pack down into something that won't foam worth a damn. <BR>
<BR>
Would "ordinary" soil flow enough to provide a suction seal?  How<BR>
about sand?<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, you've put this image in my head of a Grav Tank coming in<BR>
for a landing on a flat prairie and almost immediately sinking out<BR>
of sight. Well, that's one way to hide 'em for the Phoenix <BR>
Project. <G><BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:35:01 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: High Tech Planets<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson:<BR>
<BR>
> Now a few of these are incompatible. Even so, it would appear that a DM<BR>
> of *14* is possible. With a roll of 6, that gives 20 as the max TL. So<BR>
> there could be a TL *L* world (note that I is note used for TLs).<BR>
<BR>
That's true for standard world generation.  The (somewhat broken) process<BR>
that DGP used included limiting TL to no greater than 16 with the exception<BR>
of Sabmiqys.  (To fit with canon established in Book 8.)<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance:<BR>
<BR>
> > What does the Imperium have to combat this threat?  Well Massillia Sector<BR>
> > alone has 24 TL-G worlds...<BR>
><BR>
> All of which makes me *highly* suspicious of the GEnie sector data :*><BR>
<BR>
Massilia got a special tech level bonus as an older sector.  They were<BR>
probably concerned with just how powerful the Solomani Rim was looking<BR>
in comparison to everywhere else.  Still, you should be suspicious of<BR>
a lot of the data; as far as I can tell, a lot of it never got the last<BR>
proofread or correction.  Massilia, for example, shows oddities in its<BR>
world size distribution and had a couple of worlds in the same hex<BR>
repeated with different names.  (These problems made it into print in<BR>
GDW's _Knightfall_.)<BR>
<BR>
Loren wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> As you should be -- Dave Nilsen once said several of those files showed the<BR>
> computer equivalent of "a phonograph needle stuck in the groove" (an obsolete<BR>
> reference to many these days.<BR>
<BR>
Definitely.  As I recall, one dead giveaway in some of the files is a much<BR>
larger than expected number of size-1 worlds.  Some files are bad enough<BR>
that they've got partially or entirely repeating UWPs.  Some files are<BR>
generally okay.<BR>
<BR>
My theory is that this happened because DGP was matching the world dots to<BR>
the ones in ATLAS OF THE IMPERIUM; so for instance, if the world was Wet,<BR>
it'd get a certain UWP as a placeholder that in some cases wasn't replaced<BR>
with something reasonable later.<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:35:58 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
<BR>
>> From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>> Young Ditzie is hopped up on a<BR>
>> classified number of classified things to make her smarter and, er, more<BR>
>> bloodthirsty in her job with FS Leeegals.<BR>
<BR>
no, it's Diitzie that works for Legal, and Diiitzie that works in<BR>
Marketing.<BR>
Please disregard any rumours you may have heard that the further a<BR>
clone gets from the original, the more unstable it becomes.<BR>
Please also be reassured that when Famille Spofulam's Marketing<BR>
department talks about "mailSHOTS", "targeting the consumer" and<BR>
"dividing the market into segments", they're all just figures of<BR>
speech.  Really.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:08:30 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
>Note that about 6% of the population lives at TL G. Now compare this to our<BR>
>world today. We have about 6 billion people, so 6% of our population amounts<BR>
>to about 360 million people. The population of the US is about 275 million,<BR>
>so we are not too far from the same ratio. (After all, not all of the people<BR>
>in the US, Japan, Europe, etc, actually use the cutting-edge technology.)<BR>
>So if you think of how widespread cutting-edge technology is today, it may<BR>
>give you a good estimate of how widespread it is in the Traveller universe.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	I would expect that not all of the people on a TL 16 world actually<BR>
	use the cutting-edge technology.  As it happens, there are a bit more<BR>
	than 200 million people in Germany/France/UK, and over 125 million in<BR>
	Japan.  I would estimate that about double 6% of Terra live in<BR>
	countries that I would classify at "current TL."  The other thing is<BR>
	that it would probably be easier for the USA to maintain a top-line<BR>
	fleet on the other side of Terra than for a Traveller interstellar<BR>
	empire to maintain a fleet many parsecs from it's supplies.  Just my<BR>
	impression.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:25:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Well I can be a curmudgeon for sure and I am 42.  And I love my Traveller.<BR>
I am so old I still have a copy of En Garde. (The American Version)<BR>
<BR>
>>> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> 07/10/00 06:58PM >>><BR>
on 7/10/00 6:46 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Eh? speak up sonny!<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember begging, wheedling, and cajoling my mom into<BR>
> letting me stay up way past my bedtime to let me watch the<BR>
> very first episode on the premier night -- and she was glad<BR>
> she did, as she became a huge fan as well.  Then she got to<BR>
> watch them all again in syndication in the 1970s when my<BR>
> brother was little.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth we<BR>
are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and who<BR>
is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com <BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:38:13 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>>This makes good sense, but would it be better to make it shaped more<BR>
>>like a capsule?  Harder to move around yourself, but easier for others<BR>
>>to move and more comfortable for the occupant (who can stretch out).<BR>
>Possibly.  I based my rescue ball on the NASA version.  Spheres have some<BR>
>nice pressure properties.  Also, we want to accommodate most if not all<BR>
>species (for Aslans it's darn claustrophobic, for small races it's<BR>
>positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
>why NASA picked spheres?<BR>
<BR>
	A sphere is very efficient in terms of structural integrity and mass<BR>
	per volume.  A cylinder should be easily doable with Traveller tech,<BR>
	and a 2 x 1 m cylinder should accomidate most common Traveller<BR>
	species at least as well as a 1.5 m sphere.  One other thing that I<BR>
	would add to the design are some handy loops that can be used as<BR>
	handles or to attach a safety line.<BR>
<BR>
>I know that the respirator mask maximizes O2 use<BR>
>efficiency, and might also help to block out smells and other unpleasant<BR>
>materials from being aspirated.  Anyone care to imagine a multi-species<BR>
>breather mask?<BR>
<BR>
	Something very soft and maleable, perhaps like putty.  Even then it<BR>
	might be difficult for some species.<BR>
<BR>
>>Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to move in zero-G<BR>
>>and manipulate air lock controls, etc.?  I think not, just put the<BR>
>Is this a good idea?  besides, pressure in the ball is going to make it<BR>
>difficult to use the arm.<BR>
<BR>
	If it was a sleave-and-glove arrangement, it would require a clever<BR>
	design to allow relatively easy use.  It could also be a mechanical<BR>
	arm controlled by a simple lever or two.  Either way, it would add<BR>
	to expense, mass, and complexity without appreciably increasing<BR>
	safety (it might even decrease it).<BR>
<BR>
>>light.  Perhaps a sack and paper for feces (or just a diaper), a urine<BR>
>>bottle, a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
>Pass on the food.  You can go plenty long without it, and why add to the<BR>
>feces problem.  Maybe a nice electrolyte sip tube with an appetite<BR>
>suppressant.  Kidneys don't like it if you skip waqter for too long<BR>
<BR>
	I agree about the feces, but I meant a drink that contains easily<BR>
	digested and absorbed food and produces no feces.  Think souped<BR>
	up Gatorade.<BR>
<BR>
>>inside.  Fast drug could be handy.  An automatic radio beacon should<BR>
>>be included and perhaps three flashing lights.  Occupants would be<BR>
>aluminize the exterior for max radar signature as well.<BR>
<BR>
	Good point, I hadn't thought of that.<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not sure if even a port is helpful, except maybe to look in.<BR>
<BR>
	That's what I was thinking of, and for morale.<BR>
<BR>
>Maybe an<BR>
>LC display of calming images ('Don't Panic').. Maybe environmental scenes<BR>
>and music to go with traq being pumped in.  Add a subliminal message under<BR>
>the music ("everything is ok...there's nothing to be worried about...dum<BR>
>deedee dum dumm")<BR>
<BR>
	I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still,<BR>
	it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts?<BR>
	Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least<BR>
	check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions?<BR>
<BR>
>Perhaps shoot in fast drug after a certain period of time, or when a certain<BR>
>percentage of air supply is exceeded.  at least if there is no immediate<BR>
>rescue, you'll be in a nice drug induced coma, listening to happy muzak when<BR>
>the O2 gives out.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	There might also be controls on the outside, so that crew in vacc suits<BR>
	can adjust things.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:42:37 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Just as an example, there's no way a *child* can use an adult mask.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	This brings up another issue that I was mulling over last night:<BR>
	young children should be put in a rescue 'ball' with an adult.<BR>
	Are there family models?  The 2 x 1 m capsule could accomidate<BR>
	an adult human with their 5-year-old, but with reduced endurance.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:43:58 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Brian Jenkins wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Well I can be a curmudgeon for sure and I am 42.  And I love my Traveller.<BR>
> I am so old I still have a copy of En Garde. (The American Version)<BR>
> <BR>
This must be a guy thing, women never brag about how old they are.<BR>
<BR>
I played with the LBB's too, but I was very young when I first did so and<BR>
I am not going to tell you just how young!  (Young enough that my referee<BR>
was surprised that my character intended upon having a sex life... but I<BR>
read bodice-rippers as well as SF back then.)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:44:49 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Stranded On The Flats Of The Demand Curve<BR>
<BR>
I got this from http://www.space-access.org/updates/sau94.html,<BR>
which I don't normally read, but is really interesting.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
              Stranded On The Flats Of The Demand Curve:  <BR>
                         Cheap Launch In Limbo <BR>
<BR>
Consider how the demand for space launches varies with changes in <BR>
launch cost.  Start plotting launch cost at infinity and reduce it as <BR>
you move to the right, with demand on the vertical axis...  At the <BR>
infinite-cost start of our plot, demand is at zero - for most of <BR>
history, all the wealth of the planet couldn't have put a BB into <BR>
orbit.  Then, as cost drops to mere millions per pound, demand starts <BR>
stirring - at least if you have a Cold War going on and national <BR>
security requires that you keep up with the other guy.  <BR>
<BR>
After you get halfway good at flying modified missiles to space and <BR>
the huge R&D costs are written off, you find you can actually get <BR>
costs down to mere tens of thousands of dollars per pound.  At that <BR>
point, things get interesting - you find there are things you can do <BR>
that pay off.  Surveillance of the other side in that Cold War, first <BR>
of all, and right along with that Cold War national-prestige missions, <BR>
and then comes the money app, communications. <BR>
<BR>
And then, as launch costs come down more...  not much happens.  Nobody <BR>
cares.  You've hit a flat "price-inelastic" section of the demand-<BR>
versus-cost curve; costs can drop more without persuading anyone to <BR>
buy more flights.  Since 1970, launch costs have come down to mere <BR>
thousands of dollars per pound, with some bargains as low as two <BR>
thousand a pound - but the people buying spysats and comsats and <BR>
national-prestige missions have decided how many launches they need <BR>
based mainly on other factors - even as low as a couple thousand a <BR>
pound, there's been no launch-buying spree.  The demand curve is flat. <BR>
<BR>
This is not just us saying this; the government-sponsored industry-<BR>
wide Commercial Space Transportation Study (CSTS) back in the nineties <BR>
concluded that not only are we in a flat section of the launch demand <BR>
curve, but also that the flat section extends to well below a thousand <BR>
dollars a pound - their estimate was that launch demand wouldn't start <BR>
taking off in response to lower costs until six hundred dollars a <BR>
pound.  Somewhere around that point, existing space operators might <BR>
start modifying their operations to take advantage of lower costs, and <BR>
more important, new applications would start springing up.  Past that <BR>
point, the curve isn't flat anymore, and the sky's the limit. <BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, though, we're still stranded out here on the flat section <BR>
of the curve.  This has significant consequences for space-launch <BR>
investment decisions.  We'll just hit the high points for now; a <BR>
detailed analysis would take a book. <BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: With the technology being more than well understood and ship<BR>
costs being totally sunk, the cost of putting stuff in orbit in the<BR>
OTU is nearly free. It's like bandwidth is getting today - it's<BR>
not totally free, but per-unit (be it kilos or bits) it sure looks that<BR>
way. I mean, there must be high-school satellite clubs on some <BR>
worlds where kids assemble and launch (out the airlock) their own<BR>
birds. Cool.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:01:19 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still, <BR>
> it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts? <BR>
> Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least <BR>
> check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions? <BR>
<BR>
I think the short-range radio would be almost a necessity, and they're<BR>
almost throwaway cheap at higher TL's.  <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:06:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
>Like Jump Drive, the Star Trigger may be trickier than it looks.<BR>
Whatever that particular trick is will be the Darrian state secret<BR>
people will pop suicide pills to protect.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<<BR>
<BR>
Well of course. For years the Darians thought it only required a stellar<BR>
probe and a meson trigger. (Someone discovered that wasn't how it worked<BR>
quite early on so they only thought it worked like that for a short<BR>
time.They pretended it worked that way for centuries.)<BR>
The mechanism is rather particular:<BR>
The decay from two intersecting meson beams and at a particular angle<BR>
interacting with vaporized tungsten (potentially some other metal related to<BR>
tungsten?) causes the effect.<BR>
Nothing else. Not a single decaying meson beam. Not two meson beams at an<BR>
acute angle. Not beams decaying inside a probe inside a star.  This is<BR>
rather tricky (and the one slight flaw in the Star Trigger Adventure as<BR>
written. The recovered notes would not seem to indicate enough information<BR>
to figure this out unless you make one awesome leap of logic or run several<BR>
thousand test scenarios, most likely triggering another Maghiz by accident<BR>
along the way.) and why even parts of the "Secret" could get out without it<BR>
being disastrous. Still, it is an incredibly simple act to reproduce once<BR>
you know what to do. Rather like gunpowder. Miraculous if you don't realize<BR>
mixing sulfur, saltpeter and charcoal will explode in the proper<BR>
combination, simple once you know that combination and make a suitable<BR>
delivery system for it. I can see the Darrian government going to rather<BR>
extreme lengths to prevent anyone with knowledge of this from running about<BR>
willy nilly. (Which of course brings up the other fallout from the Star<BR>
Trigger adventure: the Darrian scientist is supposed to help the<BR>
independent/Imperial heroes escape with their lives. If that is the "canon"<BR>
resolution, what have those heroes been up to the past few years? Who have<BR>
they told? What have they done with the information? What happens when they<BR>
show up again demanding territory to not unleash Star Triggers throughout<BR>
some empires turf?)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:27:49 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> At 02:31 PM 7/10/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> races always bothered me...WHEN did Grandfather introduce them to the<BR>
> >> Droyne, and how did he know which species would develop Jump?  (gotta go<BR>
> >> back and check the dates).<BR>
> ><BR>
> >well, now you've stepped in it...;-) This is the crux of the 'Only<BR>
> >Gramps invented Jump Drive' argument. That all the races that have jump<BR>
> >drive (found or 'invented' themselves) actually found working or<BR>
> >non-working examples conveniently placed in their star systems.<BR>
> <BR>
> I always saw this as "these are the races with which we tinkered."  The<BR>
> Ancient manipulation would also explain why these races are drawn to the<BR>
> stars, they hear the Call of Candory.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Then why did the Aslan show up as a major race only _after_ they had<BR>
discovered a crashed Solomani ship and reverse engineered the Jump<BR>
Drive?<BR>
<BR>
Unless, of course, Gramps was out and fiddling about with them at the<BR>
time.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:36:43 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did tell<BR>
> you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a calculator and pen<BR>
> and paper, right ?<BR>
<BR>
You _will_ warn us if, as Josie grows up, she professes an interest in<BR>
becoming a high-energy engineer for real, won't you? I mean, a kid who's<BR>
been working with FFS2 since before she could _walk_ could turn out to<BR>
be , umm, err, dangerous!<BR>
<BR>
Maybe we should all start sending her expensive birthday presents so<BR>
she'll think kindly of us when she's 18 and has just invented this keen<BR>
death-ray thing in her college independent studies course...;-)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:49:16 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Growing up<BR>
<BR>
Ian speaks:<BR>
<BR>
>>  This will really depend on what percentage of the hormones in her blood<BR>
at<BR>
>> that age are *supposed* to be there. Young Ditzie is hopped up on a<BR>
>> classified number of classified things to make her smarter and, er, more<BR>
>> bloodthirsty in her job with FS Leeegals.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Ditzie works for High Energy Solutions.<BR>
><BR>
>High Energy Solutions have 2 traditional 'emnity groups' in Leeegals and<BR>
>Maaarketing.<BR>
><BR>
>Just as so you know. Planets are annoying to clean up.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 Ah. then let me rearrange the sentence:<BR>
<BR>
"Young Ditzie is hopped up on a classified number of classified things to <BR>
make her smarter and more bloodthirsty with FS Leeegals in her job."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Among the things Ditzie is on are anagathics. In about twelve years, she<BR>
>will be about the same age she is now.<BR>
<BR>
 Then I gather that the "mistake" in letting Winifreda grow up was that she <BR>
lost the vital edge that they've gone to such great lengths to preserve in <BR>
Ditzie? Or are/were they using her as a baseline to Ditzie's development?<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:43:54<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
At 09:27 AM 7/11/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I always saw this as "these are the races with which we tinkered."  The<BR>
>> Ancient manipulation would also explain why these races are drawn to the<BR>
>> stars, they hear the Call of Candory.<BR>
><BR>
>Then why did the Aslan show up as a major race only _after_ they had<BR>
>discovered a crashed Solomani ship and reverse engineered the Jump<BR>
>Drive?<BR>
><BR>
>Unless, of course, Gramps was out and fiddling about with them at the<BR>
>time.<BR>
<BR>
You misunderstand me, it is my opinion that the races depicted on the Coyns<BR>
are races that the Ancients manipulated in some fashion.<BR>
<BR>
They spread Humans to a hundred worlds.<BR>
<BR>
They created the Vargr.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps Yaskodray, on one of his little expeditions, directed the G'naack<BR>
towards Kirur.<BR>
<BR>
The source of the Hiver's intelligence is a mystery; genetic engineering by<BR>
one of the Grandkids?<BR>
<BR>
The Aslan also might have been aided in some ways.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:45:32<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 PM 7/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did tell<BR>
>you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a calculator and pen<BR>
>and paper, right ?<BR>
<BR>
Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
pictures.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:20:40 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
<BR>
We just talked to him today and it's confirmed, Marc Miller will be at the GRIP Booth (#109) for Origins! Our booth is on the left wall (coming in from the entrance) at the first crossrow, just look for the GRIP Banner, you won't be able to miss it. So if you are going to be at Origins and want to meet Marc (and pick up copies of the Classic Traveller Reprints, and GRIP: The Traveller Edition of course!) come on by! We're looking forward to meeting all the folks from the TML!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:20:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In reference to your "It's not the age it's the mileage." quote from below:<BR>
<BR>
I'll be 49 in Oct. and have been retired from the Army for almost 11 years.<BR>
I had 21 fractured bones from 12 separate "accidents" by the time I was 30.<BR>
I also destroyed my left knee, which isn't counted as a fracture. I'm now at<BR>
24 documented fractures, 11 of which were vertebrae, with assorted steel<BR>
plates, wires and screws holding everything together. Some days I feel like<BR>
I'm in my 80's and can barely get out of bed. My favorite saying is "I was<BR>
rode hard and put away wet".<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris<BR>
<BR>
P.S.<BR>
I've been doing Traveller since the early 80's (1982/3) and although I<BR>
didn't join the TML until 1994, I was DL'ing Traveller material off of GEnie<BR>
in 87'. I still have some of it on floppy disks. I'll have to go through<BR>
them and see what I have hid away.....more to come on this later.<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 8:15 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I feel like a stripling. I forgot to mention I am a mere 37, and remember<BR>
> watching Neal Armstrong walk on the moon, the fall of Saigon, and The<BR>
> introduction of Traveller in '77.  All key moments in history.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod "It's not the age, it's the mileage" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:27:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
> *know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules?  Would, for<BR>
> instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
> visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
> or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
> inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
> something similiar]" ?<BR>
<BR>
I had always been under the impression that the answer to that question<BR>
was "yes."  IMTU, the SFSS/IISS developed the UWP system around 0 IE, and<BR>
it became standard usage throughout 3I by the Pacification Campaigns, at<BR>
the latest.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:54:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
Samuel wrote:<BR>
> The mechanism is rather particular: <BR>
> The decay from two intersecting meson beams and at a particular angle <BR>
> interacting with vaporized tungsten (potentially some other metal <BR>
> related to tungsten?) causes the effect. <BR>
<BR>
Tungsten Vapor + Two Intersecting Meson Streams is what we *know*<BR>
about the process, and that you end up with the bizarre, destructive<BR>
realspace/jumpspace* effect that caused the Maghiz.  That may very<BR>
well *not* be all there is to the Star Trigger.  The Devil is in<BR>
the Details.<BR>
<BR>
Jump Drive is more than Compact High-Performance Energy Source<BR>
+ Advanced Computer Power + Freedom From Gravity Well...there's<BR>
something else, some flash of creative genius needed to bring it<BR>
all together.  Perhaps a particular type of mathematical theory<BR>
is needed, so that the above "equation" is incomplete.  What's<BR>
missing from the Vapor + 2 Meson Streams Star Trigger equation?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
*realspace/jumpspace: my theory about the Star Trigger is that the<BR>
vast majority of the energy released is dumped directly into<BR>
jumpspace.  It travels through jumpspace in some fashion - perhaps<BR>
not in the same manner a starship would.  A portion of the energy<BR>
precipitates out of jumpspace at each gravity well, in a form that <BR>
is devastating to planet's technology but not excessively destructive<BR>
to the local ecosystem.  This deals with the question, "if planets<BR>
light-years away were singed, why wasn't Darrian vaporized?".<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2751</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/11/00 1:54:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 11 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2751<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ship Automation<BR>
Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
re:  Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
RE: Age and Memories<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
RE: Neat Toys<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Mapping<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
RE: Neat Toys<BR>
re:  Fifth Frontier War done for Aide de Camp!<BR>
re: Aircraft<BR>
Re: Neat Toys<BR>
re:  Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
Re: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
Re: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
Re: Mapping<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:20:19 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/10/00 11:54:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  > "Computer: Lock on target and fire"<BR>
>  > "I don't like that tone.  You forgot to say 'please'"<BR>
>  > "Pleeeaaase, lock and fire"<BR>
>  > "It isn't easy being a Mk26 autonomous weapons turret, you<BR>
>  > know.  Its all 'shoot this, destroy that'.  What about MY<BR>
>  > needs? I think we should talk about our relationship."<BR>
>  <BR>
>  ROFL!  Reminds me of several scenes from the Hitch-Hikers Guide.<BR>
<BR>
Or even better....Darkstar......<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:31:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
Smith, Walter writes:<BR>
<BR>
> *realspace/jumpspace: my theory about the Star Trigger is that the<BR>
> vast majority of the energy released is dumped directly into<BR>
> jumpspace.  It travels through jumpspace in some fashion - perhaps<BR>
> not in the same manner a starship would.  A portion of the energy<BR>
> precipitates out of jumpspace at each gravity well, in a form that <BR>
> is devastating to planet's technology but not excessively destructive<BR>
> to the local ecosystem.  This deals with the question, "if planets<BR>
> light-years away were singed, why wasn't Darrian vaporized?".<BR>
<BR>
You don't actually need a 'weird energy' handwave.  Just assume that the release is in 'traveller mesons' which gradually decay over something like a thousand AU.  That means 99.9% of the maghiz energy would pass right through Darrian without effect.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:31:34 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> *realspace/jumpspace: my theory about the Star Trigger is that the<BR>
> vast majority of the energy released is dumped directly into<BR>
> jumpspace.  It travels through jumpspace in some fashion - perhaps<BR>
> not in the same manner a starship would.  A portion of the energy<BR>
> precipitates out of jumpspace at each gravity well, in a form that <BR>
> is devastating to planet's technology but not excessively destructive<BR>
> to the local ecosystem.  This deals with the question, "if planets<BR>
> light-years away were singed, why wasn't Darrian vaporized?".<BR>
<BR>
Another solution would be to say that the Darrians also had some kind of<BR>
defense, but it wasn't perfectly effective (it prevented vaporization, but<BR>
still allowed extreme damage).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:35:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet<BR>
>nukes are easy tocome by. <BR>
>Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and<BR>
>transfer tax would *that* take. :-)<BR>
<BR>
No I know ever fills out any paperwork nor pays any<BR>
transfer tax.  You just meet the ship at the quay or in the<BR>
warehouse with a car and a van.  They load the nukes into<BR>
the van and you drive off.  They drive off in the car,<BR>
which is full of money.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:42:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Age and Memories<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
>BTW?).  We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth<BR>
we<BR>
>are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and<BR>
who<BR>
>is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
><BR>
>Tod "remembers magnetic core memory and owned an Altair computer" Glenn<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Well, Just passed the 37th b-day a couple of months ago.  Was introduced to<BR>
wargaming in 6th grade, and was an avid AH/SPI junkie for years.  Around<BR>
1978, instead of buying SPI's Lord of the Rings, I took a gamble on this<BR>
funny blue box from this company called Tactical Studies Rules (weird,<BR>
clunky name; just didn't scan) and my transition to hard-core gamer-geek was<BR>
complete.  Within a year I was messing around with a space RPG I had cobbled<BR>
together from D&D rules and Chris Foss's "Terran Trade Authority" art books.<BR>
_Finally_ around late 1979 or early 1980 spent some of my hard-earned dough<BR>
on the little black box :)  That night I started a campaign that lasted off<BR>
and on for about six years, as well as introducing several other referees to<BR>
the game (everyone has to have a chance to be a player _sometime_, right?)<BR>
	My very first game con was Pacific Origins 1981.  I got a ride from one of<BR>
the guys from Baron Publishing (anyone else remember the magazine Gryphon?)<BR>
because I wanted to hear the seminars advertised in JoTAS - big news was<BR>
going to be announced.  The con was great - no game con has ever equaled it<BR>
in my mind or heart (but then, I have never have the pilgrimage to Lake<BR>
Geneva...some day, perhaps).  I heard the announcement of the 5th Frontier<BR>
War and got to meet Marc Milller, Loren Wiseman, and Frank Chadwick.  I<BR>
taped the three lectures (in fact, I was just listening to the 'Basic<BR>
Traveler' seminar tape on my way to work this morning).  At one of the<BR>
tournaments, I rolled up an Aslan character that I used for years and<BR>
years - he has no tongue now - I failed a 'resist torture' roll when being<BR>
interrogated by the Ine Givar on Efate, and requested a final roll against<BR>
his sense of honor to resist.  The ref allowed it and I rolled a natural 12.<BR>
He bit his own tongue off rather than talk.  He has refused to have it<BR>
replaced or regenerated ever since as a point of pride.<BR>
	I've played MT in Iceland with a group of gamers there, and it was there<BR>
that I started to develop the 3D mapping system that I still use.<BR>
	I've used TNE, though not the background - and don't play it any more.<BR>
'nuff said.<BR>
	I've played T4, and it had a lot going for it, and I've started to collect<BR>
the GT books (GREAT material in them) but CT and MT are still my favorites.<BR>
Oddly enough, I've never refereed using the published subsectors, I've<BR>
always had too much fun making my own.<BR>
<BR>
	A couple of years ago, I got back together with some of the old crew from<BR>
high school.  We were grilling slabs of animal protein and talking about old<BR>
times, and started to relive old games - usually the Traveller games; for<BR>
some reason those left the most vivid memories.  It struck me as very<BR>
weird - here was a group of people with these intense shared experiences,<BR>
these memories.... of events that never really happened.  Yet we all<BR>
remembered that night in the jungle on Efate when the last VRF in the tower<BR>
finally ran dry and the sappers began to swarm through the wire.  Heck, if I<BR>
close my eyes I can still see the livid orange light from the fougasse<BR>
against the trees.<BR>
<BR>
	Marc, Loren, Frank:  Thank you.  Thank you from the bottom of my very<BR>
being.  You have given me more hours of pleasure and companionship than<BR>
anything other leisure activity.  It is priceless.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training, but I have my LBBs and<BR>
am still young at heart)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - I've got a brain of my own, leave my employer out of it, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:54:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
<snippage><BR>
>I have 3 model 4Ps, 2 Model 4s, a model II (with 5 drives :-), a Model<BR>
>16B (or 6000, I forget which, it's buried). A few CoCos, several<BR>
>MC-10s, a couple of Model 100s, 1 working Model 600, another than I may<BR>
>be able to get working, and a third that's nothing but "spare parts".<BR>
>And bunch of peripheral stuff for the above.<BR>
><BR>
>Also far too many PC, XT, and AT systems, a number of 386 systems. Some<BR>
>486s, a couple of pentiums, and an AMD K6-2 300.<BR>
><BR>
>There there are the Macs... All but one are "compact Macs".<BR>
><BR>
	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US of A to have<BR>
actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in 1983 and I<BR>
wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training) - retrotech and proud<BR>
of it.<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:55:08 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>I have heard rumors that US citizens can by MIG-29's for<BR>
>about $100,000 US.<BR>
<BR>
Stolichnaya Vodka company owns four MiG 17s, which it has<BR>
painted red.  Three actually fly and the fourth is used for<BR>
parts and on the ground display.  At San Francisco's Gay<BR>
Pride celebration, the three flew over and the fourth was<BR>
in Civic Center Plaza in front of City Hall.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:01:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>>      Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), who just found<BR>
his<BR>
>> "Nuclear Device Effects Calculator" again and boy is he happy.<BR>
><BR>
>Gee, how come *I* never get any neat toys like that.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I can dig up the<BR>
publication number if you like when I get home).  It has the calculator in a<BR>
pocket inside the back cover.  It is this absolutely drool-inducing circular<BR>
slide rule that cross references device yield with distance from the blast<BR>
to get things like overpressure, arrival time, wind speed, thermal and<BR>
ionizing radiation released, the size of the crater expected, fallout<BR>
decay.... nifty nifty stuff.  I just love slide rules and analog calculating<BR>
devices :)  Especially ones involving antisocial activities like nukes.<BR>
<BR>
	That's the main reason to date Ditzie/Winnifreda - they have the best toys.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training; warped, and proud of<BR>
it)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:32:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
> 	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my<BR>
> old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
> Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
> when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US<BR>
> of A to have<BR>
> actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in 1983 and I<BR>
> wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
> exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
> didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
><BR>
> 	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training) -<BR>
> retrotech and proud<BR>
> of it.<BR>
<BR>
Rod, I am looking at my Pickett 12" yellow slide-rule right now.  With book<BR>
and registration card.  And yes, I still know how to use it (basic fuctions<BR>
like logs and multiplication).  I delight in showing it to youngsters, who<BR>
have no clue that we went to the moon using these guys.  And since I am<BR>
older than you by a smidgen, WE ARE NOT OLD! (Maybe just crotchety, I know I<BR>
am).  I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:33:24 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote,<BR>
> Ok, I am fiddling with my update to my site and would like to see if<BR>
> anyone can help with my understanding of GT's climate rules in<BR>
> relationship to their icosahedronic projection.<BR>
<BR>
> From the SJG site I snagged a /supposed/ GT projection. After looking<BR>
> it over and comparing it to what I have read in GT: First In, I think<BR>
> either the map is wrong*,<BR>
<BR>
The map is correct. GURPS has a fast-and-loose approach to world hex<BR>
mapping which is I think justified at this scale, like the leeway<BR>
allowed on deckplans.<BR>
<BR>
> First In is wrong, GURPS Space is wrong, or I am seriously missing<BR>
> something. By what I read in First In, counting from the equator there<BR>
> are supposed to be 13 (D) rows of hexes. On this map there are 14.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC there's no extra information in GURPS Space. I think First In<BR>
missed the polar hex. Treat it as -5, or if you think five climate steps<BR>
are too much use -4 for rows 12-14.<BR>
<BR>
> Other than this, the climate rules seem very elegant, and I may decide<BR>
> to adopt/adapt them to another style of projection.<BR>
<BR>
IMO First In is generally very elegant, but be warned: there are some<BR>
extreme cases where the pursuit of elegance leads to nasty results<BR>
(e.g., temperature ranges on resonant tidelocked worlds, latitude<BR>
effects on very small worlds). Just ignore the rules when appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
> Also someone mentioned that my hexadecimal based projection could not<BR>
> use the climate rules standard to other styles, and it has just dawned<BR>
> on me that this implies there are such rules for the "Old School"<BR>
> style. Are these in the hard-to-get WTH and/or WBH?<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid so. WTH is probably easier to get than WBH, though.<BR>
<BR>
> I have a beta version of my mapping page uploaded, and it has links to<BR>
> the pertinent images for those with limited browsing capabilities like<BR>
> Leonard. It is at:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
Nitpick: "prescision" (third sentence) should be "precision".<BR>
<BR>
I really like the "BZA Hexadecimal-style" map. Points awarded for:<BR>
<BR>
1. The 0-to-F latitude scale; as you pointed out, it's very Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
2. There are 1000 hexes*, which makes it trivial to convert between<BR>
   hydrographic percentage and hexes of water. Once you've drawn your<BR>
   map you can also easily go in the other direction to report (say)<BR>
   land area of polities, or woodland cover, or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
3. As a consequence of (2), easy conversion of WBH area-based rules<BR>
   (since the "Old School" map has 500 hexes**).<BR>
<BR>
   [There are no easy conversions for linear rules between the three<BR>
    maps, so you neither gain nor lose points for that.]<BR>
<BR>
4. Displaying the hexes dimmer than the triangles.<BR>
<BR>
5. Colour-coding the guide lines so that it's easier to see which row is<BR>
   which.<BR>
<BR>
Points are subtracted for having a *lot* of hex sides. This is fine on-<BR>
screen where you can use techniques like (4) and (5) above, but on some<BR>
B&W printers this may swamp other information.<BR>
<BR>
Overall, I'd like to use it.<BR>
<BR>
As a conversion of the First In climate rules, why not use (5-row)/2,<BR>
dropping fractions? This gives<BR>
<BR>
        Row     Zone Shift<BR>
        F       -5<BR>
        E       -4<BR>
        D       -4<BR>
        C       -3<BR>
        B       -3<BR>
        A       -2<BR>
        9       -2<BR>
        8       -1<BR>
        7       -1<BR>
        6       +0<BR>
        5       +0<BR>
        4       +0<BR>
        3       +1<BR>
        2       +1<BR>
        1       +2<BR>
        0       +2<BR>
<BR>
which is pretty close to First In.<BR>
<BR>
> I have posted on this earlier(7-2-00), but got no response. Does that<BR>
> indicate a lack of interest, oversite, lack of comprehension, or what?<BR>
<BR>
In my case, it just indicates I've been too busy to look at it. This is<BR>
still true really, but things were going badly at work today and I<BR>
fancied thinking about something different for a while...<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
* Including the "five-sided hexes" at the joins of row 5.<BR>
** Ditto, but the joins are in row 4.<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:42:44 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
<BR>
	For those of you who haven't seen it yet, there is a very good online comic<BR>
called "Freefall".  The index page is at<BR>
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm  and I can't recommend it highly<BR>
enough.<BR>
	Besides - all jokes aobout the Spofalum progeny's toyboxes aside, the<BR>
absolute perfect woman has to be Florence Ambrose <sigh>.  Of course, since<BR>
she is a genetically engineered wolf, and I am an unrepentant furry, you can<BR>
ignore that opinion if you wish... but she is still a brilliant engineer,<BR>
and can also kill, clean, and cook her own deer.  Now if only she were not a<BR>
cartoon  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Olf Fart In Training, ducking and running all<BR>
the way back to Vargr territory)<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Don't try to blame my employer for my own nutty opinions, OK?<BR>
He's not furry.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:43:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
> 	Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I<BR>
> can dig up the<BR>
> publication number if you like when I get home).  It has the<BR>
> calculator in a<BR>
> pocket inside the back cover.  It is this absolutely<BR>
> drool-inducing circular<BR>
> slide rule that cross references device yield with distance from the blast<BR>
> to get things like overpressure, arrival time, wind speed, thermal and<BR>
> ionizing radiation released, the size of the crater expected, fallout<BR>
> decay.... nifty nifty stuff.  I just love slide rules and analog<BR>
> calculating<BR>
> devices :)  Especially ones involving antisocial activities like nukes.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I remember this book from high school, along with another on chemical<BR>
warfare.  Any fan of slide rules should check out Sphere Research's home<BR>
page at http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/sruniverse.html.  They have a huge<BR>
collection of neato toys.  If you've always dreamed of running a well made<BR>
'slip stick' through your fingers, the wait is over.  I have bought several<BR>
from these guys and their stuff is primo.  Some of their Picketts are new in<BR>
box.<BR>
<BR>
So how long does it take to plot a jump with a slide rule, anyway? Anyone<BR>
worried about 3 significant digits?<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:54:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Fifth Frontier War done for Aide de Camp!<BR>
<BR>
>From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>Yes, it's true! The ADC2 conversion for FFW is finally<BR>
>complete. It is now possible to play this classic <BR>
>Traveller game in its new electronic form.<BR>
<BR>
Then I must immediately purchase the program and secretly<BR>
install it on my girlfriend's computer (or on my company's<BR>
computer at the office -- query which one will get me in<BR>
more trouble?).<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn "Windows 3.1.1 on a 486" Goffin<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re: Aircraft<BR>
<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> I'd want a B-17, paint the sucker black with red<BR>
>>sunbursts on the wings and fuselage.<BR>
>FW-190 please. Or, just to raise some hackles, perhaps a <BR>
>B-29 for a goodwilltrip to Southeast Asia<BR>
<BR>
No, I want a big Huey so I can take the whole gang around<BR>
- -- same color scheme as Doug suggested.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I think I have an unbuilt 1/72 Huey in a box<BR>
somewhere; maybe I'll mock it up over the summer, now that<BR>
the gf isn't objecting to my Striker miniatures painting<BR>
project ....<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:09:45 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
Lordy that reminds me...I have an Apple II program that did those<BR>
calculations; from an old Computer Recreations column in Scientific<BR>
American...I remember it referenced that publication, among others.<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>         Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I can dig up the<BR>
> publication number if you like when I get home). <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:26:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
<BR>
>Equip two ships with black spheres, jump to the enemy <BR>
>system near to the sunand start the flare. By the time -<BR>
C->lag permitting - a sensor has alertedplanetary defences <BR>
>the Darrians are out of there. Bang one planet gone. The<BR>
>sworld worlds wouldnt last a week (jump-time!) against the<BR>
<BR>
>Darrians so WTH did they let themselves be pushed over in<BR>
>the first place?<BR>
<BR>
1) The Darrian star trigger may not actually exist.  They<BR>
set it off once a very long time ago but haven't used it<BR>
since.  They may not be able to make another one, but they<BR>
can still bluff the neighbors and retain their<BR>
independence.  <BR>
<BR>
2) The Imperium and the Consulate are vastly larger and<BR>
stronger powers that the Darrians, even with one or more<BR>
star triggers.  If they set one off, they will be<BR>
considered too dangerous to be allowed to continue to<BR>
exist, and the Imperium and Consulate will commence -- and<BR>
win -- a war of annihilation.  <BR>
<BR>
3) As to the Darrians/Sword Worlds face off, even if the<BR>
Darrians have one or more operational star triggers, they<BR>
dare not use them against the Sword Worlds because of 2),<BR>
supra, and because the Sword Worlds are so close that the<BR>
Maghiz effect would affect Darrian worlds as well.  If the<BR>
star trigger is not available as a weapon, the Darrians are<BR>
down to their conventional weapons, which consist of a few<BR>
TL16 warships that are thousands of years old and some, as<BR>
I recall, TL 14 and 15 ships in current production.  The<BR>
Sword Worlds must outnumber them very significantly, as the<BR>
TL disparity is very great.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:28:49 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML landgrab: Esalin<BR>
<BR>
>From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>I first thought that Esalin would be like Berlin too. But<BR>
>then I thought about a rich, non-industrialized,<BR>
>agricultural planet with only 2 million inhabitants. <BR>
>Having only 2 million people to run the entire planet<BR>
>doesn't leave much room for big cities with lots of spy <BR>
>stuff going on. And since Esalin is balkanized, you have <BR>
>the overhead of running more than onegovernment.<BR>
<BR>
I assume that balkanized just means that there are two<BR>
governments, Imperial and Zhodani.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:34:35 -0400<BR>
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
<BR>
At 01:20 PM 07/11/2000 -0400, Hunter wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>We just talked to him today and it's confirmed, Marc Miller will be at the <BR>
>GRIP Booth (#109) for Origins! Our booth is on the left wall (coming in <BR>
>from the entrance) at the first crossrow, just look for the GRIP Banner, <BR>
>you won't be able to miss it. So if you are going to be at Origins and <BR>
>want to meet Marc (and pick up copies of the Classic Traveller Reprints, <BR>
>and GRIP: The Traveller Edition of course!) come on by! We're looking <BR>
>forward to meeting all the folks from the TML!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
...and what is GRIP: The Traveller Edition?  I'm not familiar with it...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Bill Rutherford<BR>
worj@home.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:41:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote,<BR>
>*realspace/jumpspace: my theory about the Star Trigger is that the<BR>
vast majority of the energy released is dumped directly into<BR>
jumpspace.  It travels through jumpspace in some fashion - perhaps<BR>
not in the same manner a starship would.  A portion of the energy<BR>
precipitates out of jumpspace at each gravity well, in a form that<BR>
is devastating to planet's technology but not excessively destructive<BR>
to the local ecosystem.  This deals with the question, "if planets<BR>
light-years away were singed, why wasn't Darrian vaporized?".<<BR>
<BR>
Errrr...<BR>
Sorry, I'll go with Occam's Razor and vote for poor tech knowledge/literary<BR>
skills instead. Someone tried being poetic and didn't realize it wouldn't be<BR>
logical. I don't see how the Star Trigger could dump anything into Jumpspace<BR>
and going this far with theorizing breaks down even my fantasy gamer/"it's<BR>
magic!" inclinations.<BR>
<BR>
>Jump Drive is more than Compact High-Performance Energy Source<BR>
+ Advanced Computer Power + Freedom From Gravity Well...there's<BR>
something else, some flash of creative genius needed to bring it<BR>
all together.  Perhaps a particular type of mathematical theory<BR>
is needed, so that the above "equation" is incomplete.  What's<BR>
missing from the Vapor + 2 Meson Streams Star Trigger equation?<<BR>
<BR>
Why must this be so? Wasn't there a concept that the tech in Traveller was<BR>
"simply" extrapolated real world tech with no real fancy bells and whistles<BR>
added like in say Star Trek? Aren't the gauss and energy weapons simply<BR>
projections of current theory taken a quantum level higher? I like certain<BR>
of the odder jump effects, like in say Norman Spinrad's  The Void Captain's<BR>
Tale and Child of Fortune where an alien artifact can induce platform orgasm<BR>
in a mentally unstable human female and produce a translight jump.<BR>
But that isn't Traveller. The Star Trigger is a simple device based on some<BR>
theory (offbeat, wild or whatever) or other about destabilizing a star. Why<BR>
add mysticism to it?  (Though given the destructive power, I can easily see<BR>
going the Vilani "black box tech" route with all details of its function for<BR>
security reasons.)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:50:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
<BR>
On 7/11/2000 at 4:34 PM Bill Rutherford wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>We just talked to him today and it's confirmed, Marc Miller will be at the <BR>
>>GRIP Booth (#109) for Origins! Our booth is on the left wall (coming in <BR>
>>from the entrance) at the first crossrow, just look for the GRIP Banner, <BR>
>>you won't be able to miss it. So if you are going to be at Origins and <BR>
>>want to meet Marc (and pick up copies of the Classic Traveller Reprints, <BR>
>>and GRIP: The Traveller Edition of course!) come on by! We're looking <BR>
>>forward to meeting all the folks from the TML!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>...and what is GRIP: The Traveller Edition?  I'm not familiar with it...<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition is a special version of our GRIP Online Role-playing System. GRIP allows you to play any traditional paper and pencil RPG over the Internet or a LAN. The Traveller Edition is a box set that contains the GRIP Basic tool set, plus a number of specialized Traveller tools for use with GRIP such as a character generator, ship designer, library data system and sector/world mapper. The CD also include the first 3 classic Traveller books in Help file format, GRIP versions of the first two classic Traveller Adventures (The Kinunir and Research Station Gamma), and close to 60Mb of other shareware and freeware role-playing tools!<BR>
<BR>
GRIP is currently only available in a Windows version, but we have had users informing us that GRIP runs fine under the VMWare Windows Emulator on Linux machines, and for Mac users GRIP runs well under Connectix's Virtual PC.<BR>
<BR>
If you have any other questions feel free to contact me off-list at grip@RPGRealms.com, or stop by the website!<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:52:35 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mapping<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/11/00 12:33 PM, John@elvw.demon.co.uk issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com> wrote,<BR>
>> Ok, I am fiddling with my update to my site and would like to see if<BR>
>> anyone can help with my understanding of GT's climate rules in<BR>
>> relationship to their icosahedronic projection.<BR>
> <BR>
>> From the SJG site I snagged a /supposed/ GT projection. After looking<BR>
>> it over and comparing it to what I have read in GT: First In, I think<BR>
>> either the map is wrong*,<BR>
> <BR>
> The map is correct. GURPS has a fast-and-loose approach to world hex<BR>
> mapping which is I think justified at this scale, like the leeway<BR>
> allowed on deckplans.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I admit I am a picky little elf. The more I study climatology, the<BR>
more I like these "fast and loose" rules. There are too many other factors<BR>
to do anything but, unless you want a whole book of rules. The primary error<BR>
in First In is the statement that the top single hex is #13. It should<BR>
instead note that 12 /through/ 14 are the polar zone.<BR>
<BR>
>> First In is wrong, GURPS Space is wrong, or I am seriously missing<BR>
>> something. By what I read in First In, counting from the equator there<BR>
>> are supposed to be 13 (D) rows of hexes. On this map there are 14.<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC there's no extra information in GURPS Space. I think First In<BR>
> missed the polar hex. Treat it as -5, or if you think five climate steps<BR>
> are too much use -4 for rows 12-14.<BR>
<BR>
On the GURPS projection I'd go with the latter, but I am working on other<BR>
projections to see if I can come up with one that uses the same general<BR>
climate rules a little more elegantly. I will add these to my mapping page<BR>
soon.<BR>
<BR>
>> Other than this, the climate rules seem very elegant, and I may decide<BR>
>> to adopt/adapt them to another style of projection.<BR>
> <BR>
> IMO First In is generally very elegant, but be warned: there are some<BR>
> extreme cases where the pursuit of elegance leads to nasty results<BR>
> (e.g., temperature ranges on resonant tidelocked worlds, latitude<BR>
> effects on very small worlds). Just ignore the rules when appropriate.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, I have noticed this, but this not being a field I am real strong in, I<BR>
just see the "nasty results" without seeing how to fix them other than by<BR>
"Arbiter's Fiat", hence my query to the list. Lots of folks here who have a<BR>
better grasp on this stuff than I.<BR>
<BR>
>> Also someone mentioned that my hexadecimal based projection could not<BR>
>> use the climate rules standard to other styles, and it has just dawned<BR>
>> on me that this implies there are such rules for the "Old School"<BR>
>> style. Are these in the hard-to-get WTH and/or WBH?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm afraid so. WTH is probably easier to get than WBH, though.<BR>
<BR>
They are in both? Any difference between them?<BR>
<BR>
>> I have a beta version of my mapping page uploaded, and it has links to<BR>
>> the pertinent images for those with limited browsing capabilities like<BR>
>> Leonard. It is at:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
> <BR>
> Nitpick: "prescision" (third sentence) should be "precision".<BR>
<BR>
Cool deal, I am glad I am not the only nit-picker. I'll fix that ASAP.<BR>
<BR>
> I really like the "BZA Hexadecimal-style" map. Points awarded for:<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. The 0-to-F latitude scale; as you pointed out, it's very Traveller.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2. There are 1000 hexes*, which makes it trivial to convert between<BR>
> hydrographic percentage and hexes of water. Once you've drawn your<BR>
> map you can also easily go in the other direction to report (say)<BR>
> land area of polities, or woodland cover, or whatever.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I had first mistakenly calculated it as 1002 by forgetting that the<BR>
vertice spaces are 5/6ths of a hex. When my error was pointed out on the<BR>
list I was thrilled.<BR>
<BR>
> 3. As a consequence of (2), easy conversion of WBH area-based rules<BR>
> (since the "Old School" map has 500 hexes**).<BR>
<BR>
Hadn't thought of that one.<BR>
<BR>
> [There are no easy conversions for linear rules between the three<BR>
> maps, so you neither gain nor lose points for that.]<BR>
> <BR>
> 4. Displaying the hexes dimmer than the triangles.<BR>
<BR>
You like this better than the triangles dimmer than the hexes? Or do you<BR>
just like them different with no preference for which is dimmer?<BR>
<BR>
> Points are subtracted for having a *lot* of hex sides. This is fine on-<BR>
> screen where you can use techniques like (4) and (5) above, but on some<BR>
> B&W printers this may swamp other information.<BR>
<BR>
Thankfully /my/ printer is color. ;) OTOH making the triangles indicated by<BR>
dotted lines might work OK.<BR>
<BR>
> Overall, I'd like to use it.<BR>
<BR>
Go for it! I may use it in my upcoming campaign, development of which has<BR>
slowed to a crawl as I ponder my options. With this GT:FI conversion of<BR>
yours it looks even more tempting.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2751<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2752</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/12/00 12:03:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 12 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2752<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
RE: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Neat Toys<BR>
re: New on travllercentral.com<BR>
Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
Hi-powered holdout gun<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re: Neat Toys<BR>
Roc: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Quick FFS2 question<BR>
Re: Neat Toys<BR>
TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Ship Automation<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 13:51:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
<BR>
On Tuesday, July 11, 2000 1:50 PM<BR>
Hunter Gordon said,<BR>
<BR>
> GRIP: The Traveller Edition is a special version of our GRIP<BR>
> Online Role-playing System. GRIP allows you to play any<BR>
> traditional paper and pencil RPG over the Internet or a LAN.<BR>
<BR>
So how does it do that?  Is it conferencing software like NetMeeting and<BR>
such?<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
==================================<BR>
"Sometimes logic is like a hammer.  It works better if you pound the nails<BR>
in with the metal head as opposed to the wooden handle." -Tracey<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:08:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Marc Miller/Origins/GRIP Booth<BR>
<BR>
On 7/11/2000 at 1:51 PM Thing wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> GRIP: The Traveller Edition is a special version of our GRIP<BR>
>> Online Role-playing System. GRIP allows you to play any<BR>
>> traditional paper and pencil RPG over the Internet or a LAN.<BR>
><BR>
>So how does it do that?  Is it conferencing software like NetMeeting and<BR>
>such?<BR>
<BR>
Very similar. GRIP uses text based chat for most of it's interaction, but you can also use voice (Roger Wilco) or video (NetMeeting) at the same time. The Game Master end of the program, called the GRIP iGM Module, is basically a small personal game server that you run on your own computer. Up to 8 players, using the Free GRIP iPC Module can then connect directly to your copy of iGM and you can begin playing. There is no 'central' server to connect through. There are also built in features for mapping, adventure design and editing, private whispering, dice rolling and tons of other features.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter <BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
GRIP: The Traveller Edition<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com/Traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:24:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
><BR>
>  And since I am<BR>
>older than you by a smidgen, WE ARE NOT OLD! (Maybe just crotchety, I know<BR>
I<BR>
>am).  I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	That's why I'm only "In Training"...not old yet, though I'll freely admit<BR>
to being a crochety fart - also cantankerous, curmudgeonly, cynical, and<BR>
eccentric to a fault.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, CFSITATM - (Crochety Fart Still In The Advanced Training Mode)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - He just pays me, OK?  He doesn't tell me what to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:42:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 12:32, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > 	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my<BR>
> > old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
> > Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use<BR>
> > it when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US of A<BR>
> > to have actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in<BR>
> > 1983 and I wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the<BR>
> > middle of the exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on<BR>
> > a test, and I didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training) -<BR>
> > retrotech and proud<BR>
> > of it.<BR>
> <BR>
> Rod, I am looking at my Pickett 12" yellow slide-rule right now.  With<BR>
> book and registration card.  And yes, I still know how to use it (basic<BR>
> fuctions like logs and multiplication).  I delight in showing it to<BR>
> youngsters, who have no clue that we went to the moon using these guys. <BR>
> And since I am older than you by a smidgen, WE ARE NOT OLD! (Maybe just<BR>
> crotchety, I know I am).  I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
<BR>
I don't own one myself, but I learnt how to use my fathers, back when I <BR>
was about 10.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:42:58 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 12:43, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > 	Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I<BR>
> > can dig up the<BR>
> > publication number if you like when I get home).  It has the<BR>
> > calculator in a<BR>
> > pocket inside the back cover.  It is this absolutely<BR>
> > drool-inducing circular<BR>
> > slide rule that cross references device yield with distance from the<BR>
> > blast to get things like overpressure, arrival time, wind speed, thermal<BR>
> > and ionizing radiation released, the size of the crater expected,<BR>
> > fallout decay.... nifty nifty stuff.  I just love slide rules and analog<BR>
> > calculating devices :)  Especially ones involving antisocial activities<BR>
> > like nukes.<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> I remember this book from high school, along with another on chemical<BR>
> warfare.<BR>
<BR>
The one I got hold of at high school was their improvised weapons <BR>
handbook. Full of useful stuff like how to make mercury filminate <BR>
(sp?), blackpowder, fertilizer expolsive, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I also remember a book on nukes the local library had, by Costa Tispis <BR>
(I think), it had all those lovely formulas for blast overpressure at <BR>
range, neutron intensity, etc. Unfortunately when I went looking for it <BR>
a few yaers ago they'd got rid of it (along with most of the other <BR>
stuff on nukes) - post cold war librarians don't seem to belive in <BR>
nukes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:35:25 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: New on travllercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
At 17:47 -0400 6/7/00, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
> The latest is<BR>
>"advanced small ship combat".  I did this up back when High Guard first came<BR>
>out (1980 I believe), and have posted it verbatim.<BR>
<BR>
1979 for first edition, rapidly superceded by HG2 in 1980.<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks to Dom, Glenn and Doug (and everyone else) for taking the time to<BR>
>explain the mysteries of T4/ACQ to someone trapped in 1977.<BR>
<BR>
No problam, happy to help.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (stuck in a week behind land)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:37:41 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Help - RAFM Minatures scale<BR>
<BR>
At 17:47 -0400 6/7/00, Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
>They are not to scale.<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 02:02:48 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Hi-powered holdout gun<BR>
<BR>
It took me some time to dig out this one. It was originally made with 3G and converted to GURPS for an Uplift game. As I'd like to compare it with the FS PURSE can someone covert it to MT, GURPS or 3G?<BR>
<BR>
A. Pratt Minipistol<BR>
<BR>
This is an extreme holdout weapon, designed to avoid detection and is made of plastics and uses plastic rounds propelled by high-pressure gas. (SG 1 "binary propellant" (with only 10% energy to simulate gas instead of true binary prop.)  round.) The gun is oval-shaped and fits in an average palm. It's barrel protrudes between middle and ring finger, and a laser sight is it's only sighting device. Despite it's small size it is advised to fire it using two hands as it has very high recoil. <BR>
<BR>
3G stats<BR>
<BR>
Cal: 2 mm<BR>
Lenght: 6 cm <BR>
Mass: 178 g<BR>
Loaded mass: 190 g<BR>
RC: 1/1<BR>
DV: 58<BR>
IA: -1      <BR>
Init: 4<BR>
ACT: RV<BR>
ROF: 3<BR>
RCL: -4<BR>
Clip: 20/I<BR>
Clip mass: 2,3 + 9,9 g<BR>
Ammo type: binary propellant/plastic round<BR>
Rel: 1<BR>
SZ: VS/1<BR>
Hands: 1<BR>
TL: 15<BR>
Cost: 1740 cr<BR>
AV: 5<BR>
BP: 1<BR>
<BR>
GURPS stats<BR>
<BR>
Malf: Ver. Crit.<BR>
Type: cr.<BR>
Dam: 7d<BR>
SS: 7 (with laser sight)<BR>
Acc: 3 (with laser sight)<BR>
1/2D: 115<BR>
Max: 800<BR>
Wt: 0,5<BR>
RoF. 3~<BR>
Shots: 20<BR>
ST: 12<BR>
Rcl: -4<BR>
Cost: 1740 $<BR>
LC: 2 (High-power pistol)<BR>
TL: 9<BR>
<BR>
Mega Traveller stats (According to 3G, as I don't have MT. As a straight conversion isn't really accurate with these kind of weapons,  I've added modified stats in parentheses.)<BR>
<BR>
TL: 13 <BR>
Pen: 3<BR>
Dam: 3 (2)<BR>
Range: Medium <BR>
Recoil: Medium (High)<BR>
ROF: 1<BR>
Signature: Medium<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:00:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
>From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>I'm sure that there are older guys around here.  I'm 42<BR>
>and have been playing Traveller off & on since 1979 or <BR>
>so.  My memory of those early sessions are getting fuzzier<BR>
>every day :-)<BR>
<BR>
I'm a few months younger and have been playing and<BR>
refereeing on and off since about 1978 or maybe 1979 (I'm<BR>
not sure if it was sophomore or junior year of college<BR>
anymore).  To paraphrase John Prine, Traveller will get you<BR>
through times of no money a lot better than money will get<BR>
you through times of no Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:19:47 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> I remember this book from high school, along with another on chemical<BR>
> warfare.  Any fan of slide rules should check out Sphere Research's home<BR>
> page at http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/sruniverse.html. <BR>
<BR>
Ye Ghods!!!<BR>
<BR>
That old K&E I have rattling about my desk drawer is worth a bundle!!! <BR>
<BR>
I have two, the 5 1/2 K&E and a little circular one that was a<BR>
promotional gimmie from a company my father-in-law used to work for.<BR>
<BR>
And lordy, am I rusty on using them...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 00:09:22 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Roc: Makin Ships go BOOM! (was: Re: Stupid ways to get yourselfkilled...)<BR>
<BR>
At 5:20 -0400 7/7/00, "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> wrote:<BR>
>I think what the notion was, is that a fusion engine that can be made to go<BR>
>"Boom!' will produce a Hiroshima or worse -like effect local to the vessel<BR>
>while in port (taking out either the High Port and surrounding<BR>
>satellites/vessels if in orbit, or the entire city in which the Down Port is<BR>
>located).  Simply crashing an aircraft into a city doesn't quite have that<BR>
>same destructive energy, nor would a crashed starship I assume?  I think<BR>
>that's what he was trying to say?<BR>
<BR>
Probably a HEPLAR drive could frag a High Port (certainly its drive <BR>
exhaust would destroy a bay as shown in GT Starports). You can also <BR>
add the hydrogen fuel into the explosive mix, although this would <BR>
probably only be useful in an atmosphere. Enter jump in the highport <BR>
is another option...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 17:54:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
I've been playing around with converting Traveller to the Hero system.  My current results are off of my maps page (yah, they don't make much sense there and aren't linked) at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero . Comments on my implementations?  Does anyone care?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:10:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/11/00 5:54 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been playing around with converting Traveller to the Hero system.  My<BR>
> current results are off of my maps page (yah, they don't make much sense there<BR>
> and aren't linked) at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero . Comments on my<BR>
> implementations?  Does anyone care?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know much about the Hero system, but I looked at your "Perks" and<BR>
was struck by the fact you have Scout but not Merchant. It should probably<BR>
cost more, due to the Freetrader.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:17:51 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 17:54, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I've been playing around with converting Traveller to the Hero system.  My<BR>
> current results are off of my maps page (yah, they don't make much sense<BR>
> there and aren't linked) at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero . Comments on<BR>
> my implementations?  Does anyone care?<BR>
<BR>
I considered doing this years ago, but never got round to it. As I <BR>
don't have StarHero it seemed like a lot of work.<BR>
<BR>
Just from a quick reading:<BR>
<BR>
I see you're using the GT version of TAS membership - one crappy <BR>
passage per year.<BR>
<BR>
Status seems a bit cheap, given that it gives you rulership and +5 PRE <BR>
per level when 5PRE costs the same as one level.<BR>
<BR>
With Psionics, is there any particular reason you made the points work <BR>
the way they do? It seems more in keeping with Hero to have given a <BR>
seperate END pool with its own REC, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Races:<BR>
<BR>
Where did you get Hivers being Psi resistant? They weren't in TNE, <BR>
AFAIK. Also I would've thought they'd have got a reduction in running.<BR>
<BR>
The equipment, armour and weapons all look OK on a quick read through.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:19:04 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 18:10, Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/11/00 5:54 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I've been playing around with converting Traveller to the Hero system. <BR>
> > My current results are off of my maps page (yah, they don't make much<BR>
> > sense there and aren't linked) at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero .<BR>
> > Comments on my implementations?  Does anyone care?<BR>
> <BR>
> I don't know much about the Hero system, but I looked at your "Perks" and<BR>
> was struck by the fact you have Scout but not Merchant. It should probably<BR>
> cost more, due to the Freetrader.<BR>
<BR>
I assumed that a freetrader with a ship would've bought it with the <BR>
wealth perk.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:21:46 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
<BR>
All you FFS2 fans.  Does weapon creation (small arms) under FFS2 give you a<BR>
damage value?  That is, If I generate a weapon, will FFS2 tell me what its<BR>
damage is for T4.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Tod "CT" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:17:29 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>         Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I can dig up the<BR>
> publication number if you like when I get home).  It has the calculator in a<BR>
> pocket inside the back cover.  It is this absolutely drool-inducing circular<BR>
<BR>
Yea, I remember that from when I took a class called "Nuclear Weapons<BR>
Employment."  I was certainly doing my part to keep those nuclear<BR>
weapons off the dole.  :-)<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:59:08 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
I am puzzled by how to understand the gravity you would experience on<BR>
Esalin. Esalin only has a diameter of about 5000 miles, so it's hard to<BR>
handwave anything close to 1 G. More like 0.5-0.6 perhaps, but not anything<BR>
close to 1.<BR>
<BR>
So how do people adapt to an environment of 0.5 G? Does it cause some sort<BR>
of bone loss or degradation? Since Esalin is only TL 8, you can't just<BR>
assume that everyone has a gravity-controlled house in which they live.<BR>
<BR>
How does 0.6 G affect the growth of plants? Do plants grow faster in a lower<BR>
gravity, ceteris paribus?<BR>
<BR>
This problem affects more than Esalin. Looking at<BR>
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/imperial_summary.html, we see that not many<BR>
worlds are Earth-sized or bigger, in fact, most are fairly small. Do most of<BR>
these small worlds have artificial gravity? If so, how much? 1 G? 0.8 G?<BR>
Judging from the distribution of worlds, not many have 1 G or more.<BR>
<BR>
One more comment: I liked Glenn Goffin's comment about how he assumed the<BR>
balkanization was due to the Imperial-Zhodani split. Done. That's now<BR>
incorporated into *my* version also. I'm just not sure how the joint<BR>
administration works yet. Suggestions are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:07:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
>birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
>pictures.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The REAL LIFE Ditzie, in the immortal words of Sir Robin, "RUN AWAY."<BR>
    <LL jumps into a Patrol Cruiser & runs away.><BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:41:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 21:21, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> All you FFS2 fans.  Does weapon creation (small arms) under FFS2 give you a<BR>
> damage value?  That is, If I generate a weapon, will FFS2 tell me what its<BR>
> damage is for T4.<BR>
<BR>
Equation 31 (Traveller Damage)<BR>
<BR>
Damage=ROUNDDOWN(SQRT(Effective Muzzle Energy)/10.5)<BR>
<BR>
Can I also put in a plug for my FFS2 weapon design spreadsheet (excel 5). <BR>
You can find it at BITS.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:50:26 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
<BR>
on 7/11/00 10:41 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 11 Jul 00, at 21:21, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> All you FFS2 fans.  Does weapon creation (small arms) under FFS2 give you a<BR>
>> damage value?  That is, If I generate a weapon, will FFS2 tell me what its<BR>
>> damage is for T4.<BR>
> <BR>
> Equation 31 (Traveller Damage)<BR>
> <BR>
> Damage=ROUNDDOWN(SQRT(Effective Muzzle Energy)/10.5)<BR>
> <BR>
> Can I also put in a plug for my FFS2 weapon design spreadsheet (excel 5).<BR>
> You can find it at BITS.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Is that traveller gunsmith?  If so, very cool.  So what is 'effective'<BR>
muzzle energy, and how does it differ from actual muzzle energy?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:44:36 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Quick FFS2 question<BR>
<BR>
On 11 Jul 00, at 22:50, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/11/00 10:41 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Equation 31 (Traveller Damage)<BR>
<BR>
> > Damage=ROUNDDOWN(SQRT(Effective Muzzle Energy)/10.5)<BR>
<BR>
> > Can I also put in a plug for my FFS2 weapon design spreadsheet (excel 5).<BR>
> > You can find it at BITS.<BR>
<BR>
> Is that traveller gunsmith?  If so, very cool<BR>
<BR>
Yep, thats mine (yet another Traveller project I was able to wangle degree <BR>
credit out of).<BR>
<BR>
> So what is 'effective'<BR>
> muzzle energy, and how does it differ from actual muzzle energy?<BR>
<BR>
Effective muzzle energy is the energy of the round multiplied by the ratio of <BR>
the actual barrel length to the ideal barrel length (longer barrel = higher <BR>
muzzle energy basically).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:53:48 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
> > 	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my<BR>
> > old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
> > Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
> > when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US<BR>
> > of A to have<BR>
> > actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in 1983 and I<BR>
> > wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
> > exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
> > didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > 	Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training) -<BR>
> > retrotech and proud<BR>
> > of it.<BR>
><BR>
>Rod, I am looking at my Pickett 12" yellow slide-rule right now.  With book<BR>
>and registration card.  And yes, I still know how to use it (basic fuctions<BR>
>like logs and multiplication).  I delight in showing it to youngsters, who<BR>
>have no clue that we went to the moon using these guys.  And since I am<BR>
>older than you by a smidgen, WE ARE NOT OLD! (Maybe just crotchety, I know I<BR>
>am).  I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
Okay that does it.... I know I am only a few years older than you Tod <BR>
but I couldn't remain silent any longer...;)<BR>
<BR>
I used to know how to use a slide rule. My grandfather and father <BR>
used to sell them to college students. When I was old enough to start <BR>
working in the family business. (13, Emptying the waste paper <BR>
baskets, way back before recycling) My father taught me how to use <BR>
one. I remember that they came in two colors..Yellow and white. I <BR>
imagine if I was given a refresher lesson, It could be brought forth <BR>
from the depths of forgotten memories. Hmmmmm.<BR>
<BR>
I remember that there was a thread that mentioned memwipe....What <BR>
about drugs to recover lost memories. I seem to remember you doing <BR>
something similar to this to Nicolai at one time Tod.<BR>
<BR>
Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
<BR>
Bill "Alzheimer candidate" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone seen my keyboard?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:56:11 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> In the robot construction sequence in Vampire (TNE supplement) limited AI<BR>
brains become available at TL17, below this level the synaptic processors<BR>
can be a problem. Anyone remember how the crew of the Kinunir were lost?<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:56:09 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of John P.<BR>
> Raynor<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 12:45 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> > Or what happens when the technology gets loose (and eventually it will)?<BR>
> > What happens when someone publishes the plans to the 'star<BR>
> trigger' on the<BR>
> > 3I's internet equivalent?  Just how hard is it to make a star trigger?<BR>
><BR>
> I don't know that much about the history of "the New Era," but one<BR>
> natural question comes to mind: did the Virus ever get its grubby paws<BR>
> on Darrian "star trigger" technology?  That would be pretty ugly...<BR>
><BR>
>                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
Actually more frightening to those playing in post virus Traveller is what<BR>
happened when virus reached Repository (the scout services data archives, a<BR>
massive collection of thousands of computers)<BR>
These contained information on every world surveyed by the Imperial Scout<BR>
Service.<BR>
Repository was not all that far from the borders of the so called Black<BR>
Curtain.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:56:08 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of John P.<BR>
> Raynor<BR>
> Sent: Monday, 10 July 2000 9:12 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Also, the Darrians are *quite* aware of what would happen if they were<BR>
> > *perceived* as using the Star Trigger in a war of agression. The other<BR>
> > worlds would unite against them and destroy Darrian, and any of their<BR>
> > other worlds thought capable of building a Star Trigger.<BR>
><BR>
> Suppose, however, that the Darrians *hadn't* unintentionally wrecked their<BR>
> homeworld with solar flares back in -924?  The "Spinward Marches" could<BR>
> have easily become "Darrian Empire" instead, which could have easily<BR>
> extended all the way back to the Corridor, or perhaps beyond.  Thoughts?<BR>
><BR>
>                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
><BR>
> Not only a nice alternative background but "Darrian Empire" has a nice<BR>
ring to it.<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2752<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 12 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2753<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Traveller XML<BR>
RE: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
RE: Ditzie<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
(OT) Historical revisionism<BR>
Holodisplay tank (bridge type)<BR>
Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
Re : Memwipe Counteragents (was : Symptom of Age)<BR>
Re : Neat Toys<BR>
RE: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Re : Memwipe Counteragents (was : Symptom of Age)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
SURGICAL ROBOT APPROVED<BR>
Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Backgrounds<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:34:41 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller XML<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard replied to Frank:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > <xsd:simpleType name="imperialDate" base="xsd:string"><BR>
> > >   <xsd:pattern<BR>
> > > value="(00[1-9]|0[1-9][0-9]|[1-2][0-9][0-9]|3[0-6][0-6])-\d{4}"/><BR>
> > > </xsd:simpleType><BR>
> > ><BR>
><BR>
> Being insufficiently informed about XML, I ask: Is there a way to<BR>
> specify the date values with numeric limits instead of character<BR>
> expressions? The data _is_ numeric, so the limits ought to be specified<BR>
> in those terms.<BR>
<BR>
Not as a single term, because of the 'dash' between the two numbers.<BR>
<BR>
To be accurate, _alL_ values are strings in XML, althought there is a<BR>
X-Schema Data type<BR>
"xsd:decimal" it basically breaks down to a pattern like first part of the<BR>
one above that prevents non-numeric characters.<BR>
<BR>
> > Negative years are possible. 4 digit negative years. does your<BR>
> > expression allow for that?<BR>
><BR>
> Not yet... change "-\d{4}" to "--?\d{4}" (assuming a negative year date<BR>
> would be something link 030--1800.<BR>
<BR>
Yep, I'm not sure how one indicates negative years in the format, but that<BR>
woud be my first response to Leonard too.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:13:11 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor wrote :<BR>
> Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
> *know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules?  Would, for<BR>
> instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
> visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
> or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
> inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
> something similiar]" ?<BR>
<BR>
I'd say the scout would say "TL6", and then qualify it with "Early Atomic<BR>
Stage, BTL 7, GTL 4, PTL 7, STL 6,.." etc.<BR>
<BR>
This is because the "UPP" is part of the milieu, but that the UPP doesn't<BR>
have enough detail to give a reasonable understanding  of what actually is<BR>
going on, so there is probably an IISS "Extended UPP" that gives TL<BR>
information on particular types of  technology, the UP TL being an average<BR>
of the values for the different sciences.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:20:12 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Ian Ferguson wrote :<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Just as an example, there's no way a *child* can use an adult mask.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
> 	This brings up another issue that I was mulling over last night:<BR>
> 	young children should be put in a rescue 'ball' with an adult.<BR>
> 	Are there family models?  The 2 x 1 m capsule could accomidate<BR>
> 	an adult human with their 5-year-old, but with reduced endurance.<BR>
<BR>
Eminently reasonable, but for some reason it reminded me of the Hawkwind<BR>
track<BR>
"Sonic Attack".<BR>
<BR>
"Think only of your self.<BR>
Statistically more people survive if they think only of themselves"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:29:27 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote :<BR>
> At 11:06 PM 7/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
> > Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did<BR>
tell<BR>
> > you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a<BR>
> > calculator and pen and paper, right ?<BR>
><BR>
> Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
> birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
> pictures.<BR>
<BR>
Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of battle-dress he was<BR>
talking about building ?<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:48:30 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote :<BR>
> 	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my<BR>
> old SLIDE RULE!! Remember those?<BR>
<BR>
I was taught how to use one at school. My dad bought me one, and as he was a<BR>
civil engineer, you could tell that he was proud, and that giving me my own<BR>
slide-rule was like handing me<BR>
my own sword or something.<BR>
<BR>
> My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
> when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US<BR>
> of A to have actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem<BR>
in 1983 and I<BR>
> wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
> exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
> didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
<BR>
Y'know, I spent some time in the 80's trying to write a computer program<BR>
that imitated a slide rule.<BR>
<BR>
It seemed to me that there had to be an algorithm that approximated the<BR>
slide rule's way of generating cosines and sines that would be faster and<BR>
more efficient than the means we were using at the time.<BR>
<BR>
But, it became moot, why bother with algorithm's when everyone has floating<BR>
point co-processors ?<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:00:50 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> 	Besides - all jokes aobout the Spofalum progeny's toyboxes<BR>
> aside, the absolute perfect woman has to be Florence Ambrose<BR>
> <sigh>.  Of course, since she is a genetically engineered wolf,<BR>
> and I am an unrepentant furry, you can ignore that opinion if<BR>
> you wish... but she is still a brilliant engineer, and can also<BR>
> kill, clean, and cook her own deer.  Now if only she<BR>
> were not a cartoon  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Ignoring the furry bit, this sound's like RAH's definition of a perfect<BR>
woman too !<BR>
<BR>
BTW, just re-read Smith's "The Ballad of Lost C'mell" as I was sorting<BR>
through my early Galaxy magazines today. Made me think that doing a "Lords<BR>
of the Instrumentality" game would be fun.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:42:30 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: (OT) Historical revisionism<BR>
<BR>
OK, this is off topic, but it's an interesting case study in myth-making.<BR>
<BR>
Some time ago, someone posted a 4th of July email about the sacrifices made<BR>
by the various signers of the American Declaration of Independence.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.snopes.com/spoons/glurge/declare.htm#origins<BR>
<BR>
This is not an attempt to have a go at any patriotic Americans. Despite<BR>
their refusal to take a stand against slavery, the men who fought the<BR>
American revolution did believe in liberty.<BR>
<BR>
We will return you to your regularly scheduled FS madness.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:43:22 +1000<BR>
From: "Mark Laiho" <mclaih@yesresources.com><BR>
Subject: Holodisplay tank (bridge type)<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone one have some design stats or an idea of the requirements for a<BR>
holodisplay tank.  The kind you'd use on a command, flag or fighter bridge.<BR>
I believe there was something like it in an MT book to do with crew<BR>
controls.<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:56:52 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote :-<BR>
> So how do people adapt to an environment of 0.5 G? Does it cause some sort<BR>
> of bone loss or degradation?<BR>
<BR>
Bone demineralisation and loss of muscle mass (skeletal and cardiac)<BR>
will be the primary changes. The rapidity of loss will obviously be<BR>
slower than that in free-fall/microgravity conditions, but it will be<BR>
present.<BR>
<BR>
Compared to humans living at 1G, blood volume will be less (change over<BR>
weeks) and acceleration/other physiological stresses will be less well<BR>
tolerated (resetting of baroreceptor reflexes and autonomic tone).<BR>
<BR>
> How does 0.6 G affect the growth of plants? Do plants grow faster in a lower<BR>
> gravity, ceteris paribus?<BR>
Greater vertical growth is certain, as less energy needs to be expended<BR>
in building structural tissues. The maximal height limitation imposed by<BR>
the hydraulic properties of water and the plant's circulatory system<BR>
will be higher with the reduced gravity (~300m with 0.5G).<BR>
<BR>
The problems encountered in microgravity with plant growth seemed to be<BR>
due to a lack of cues for 'which way is up?' supplied by gravity. 0.5G<BR>
sounds quite tolerable.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:57:02 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Memwipe Counteragents (was : Symptom of Age)<BR>
<BR>
Bill Eastlick wrote :-<BR>
> Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
<BR>
It depends on how memwipe works. If it prevents conscious recall of<BR>
memories, then hypnosis, psionic probing, or direct reading will defeat<BR>
it, so a pharmacological counter-agent is irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
If memwipe scrambles multiple sites in the brain where memory traces<BR>
could be located, then the effect is little different to dementia, and<BR>
the memories are permanently lost.<BR>
<BR>
> Bill "Alzheimer candidate" Eastlick<BR>
Maybe you could enrol in the vaccine trials running currently.<BR>
<BR>
;-)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:08:07 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn wrote :-<BR>
> The one I got hold of at high school was their improvised weapons <BR>
> handbook. Full of useful stuff like how to make mercury filminate <BR>
> (sp?), blackpowder, fertilizer expolsive, etc, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Mercury fulminate. That's the stuff that used to go in percussion caps<BR>
and primers, isn't it?<BR>
<BR>
It's funny how all this stuff was available for a long time in the open<BR>
literature... then the Internet comes along and everyone gets unduly<BR>
nervous.<BR>
<BR>
One of my favourite finds in the University of NSW library was a series<BR>
of discussion papers from a post-Lockerbie air security conference. It<BR>
described explosive mixtures and devices that would defeat any airport<BR>
security currently available. There's reams of stuff like this ; I guess<BR>
the Net makes it a little easier to find...<BR>
<BR>
> I also remember a book on nukes the local library had, by Costa Tispis <BR>
> (I think), it had all those lovely formulas for blast overpressure at <BR>
> range, neutron intensity, etc.<BR>
Costa Tsipis is probably one of the authors ; I wonder if he's heading<BR>
up the group opposing the development of Star Wars II : the Ballistic<BR>
Missile Defence system, given his position on Star Wars I.<BR>
<BR>
The Office of Technology Assessment's book, which described likely<BR>
deployment scenarios (one city, counterforce, economic decapitation<BR>
strikes, spasm) for strategic nukes made sobering reading. I'm glad that<BR>
my high school library had it ; I wish I could obtain a copy for my<BR>
collection.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
'Glad to be living in this timeline.'<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:28:14<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 08:29 PM 7/12/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of battle-dress he was<BR>
>talking about building ?<BR>
<BR>
Ha!  In a race between that suit and the heat death of the universe, take<BR>
the end of everything.<BR>
<BR>
We've found a set of overalls similar to the one Jesse daraws, and we're<BR>
making the "I (heart) H. E." patch.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:57:41 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Memwipe Counteragents (was : Symptom of Age)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/12/00 5:57 AM, robocon at robocon@ozemail.com.au wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Bill Eastlick wrote :-<BR>
>> Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
> <BR>
> It depends on how memwipe works. If it prevents conscious recall of<BR>
> memories, then hypnosis, psionic probing, or direct reading will defeat<BR>
> it, so a pharmacological counter-agent is irrelevant.<BR>
> <BR>
> If memwipe scrambles multiple sites in the brain where memory traces<BR>
> could be located, then the effect is little different to dementia, and<BR>
> the memories are permanently lost.<BR>
<BR>
As the creator of MemWipe, and thanks to Robert, I'll have to say the<BR>
latter.  (hippocampus? effecter)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:08:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
on 7/11/00 11:53 PM, Bill at beast@aracnet.com wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> I remember that there was a thread that mentioned memwipe....What<BR>
> about drugs to recover lost memories. I seem to remember you doing<BR>
> something similar to this to Nicolai at one time Tod.<BR>
<BR>
Depends on how the memories are lost.  MemWipe destroys memory sites, but<BR>
only effect short term memories.  You are probably referring to recalling<BR>
long term suppressed memories (Nicolai?).  As gamed, there are various<BR>
techniques for both suppressing and recovering those.<BR>
> <BR>
> Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
<BR>
Possibly another drug taken before or immediately after MemWipe is taken.<BR>
Of course, now there is the dreaded drug interaction problem.<BR>
<BR>
Note:  Thanks to the list members, there is now 2 forms of MemWipe,<BR>
'standard', which leaves fairly easy to detect metabolites or tracers in the<BR>
users blood.  This is the most common forms.  People in high security<BR>
positions can take this in the event of immenint capture.  Anyone well be<BR>
able to detect the drug and realized interrogation about recent events will<BR>
be pointless.<BR>
<BR>
There is also a stealthy version which leaves no trace in the users<BR>
bloodstream.  I'll be updating my med rules to reflect this.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:09:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Antony Farrell wrote:<BR>
> Not only a nice alternative background but "Darrian Empire" has a nice<BR>
> ring to it.<BR>
<BR>
The "Darrian Empire" would be an interesting place, sandwiched in between<BR>
the Zhodani Consulate, the Vargr, and the Third Imperium, but powerful<BR>
enough to make all of them at least a little bit nervous.  A couple of<BR>
sectors worth of Darrians, securely at Tech Level 15 (with quite a few<BR>
worlds at Tech Level 16, and a handful nibbling at the edge of Tech Level<BR>
17) would be a challenge for anyone.  I'd say the "Darrian Empire," circa<BR>
1107, would look a bit more like the Solomani Rim than the Spinward<BR>
Marches, at least in terms of technology and (perhaps to a lesser extent)<BR>
population densities.  The Sword Worlds wouldn't exist as an independent<BR>
political entity, although I can envision the Darrians giving Solomani<BR>
colonists limited (planetary) political autonomy, in exchange for some<BR>
kind of military service agreement (rather like the deal the canonical<BR>
Darrians made with those Aslan colonists).<BR>
                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:13:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
I'm afraid that I have rolled all those "traits" into one category and go<BR>
with "Gnarly Old Fart".......It seems to cover me for all intents and<BR>
purposes.<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence or "GOFIR"><BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 2:24 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> >Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
> ><BR>
> </FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Tod<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> That's why I'm only "In Training"...not old yet, though I'll freely admit<BR>
> to being a crochety fart - also cantankerous, curmudgeonly, cynical, and<BR>
> eccentric to a fault.<BR>
><BR>
> Rod Basler, CFSITATM - (Crochety Fart Still In The Advanced Training Mode)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:24:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
I am now using a new term for dealing with my teenager, "Selective<BR>
Alzheimer's". They have been using it against us for years, it's time for<BR>
some pay back. With this illness you can use some of the following:<BR>
<BR>
"What are you talking about? I NEVER said that!"<BR>
"When did you tell me you needed the car this weekend?"<BR>
"I don't remember saying I would pick up some cash on the way home tonight.<BR>
Are you sure you called and talked to me?"<BR>
<BR>
Fill in as you see fit.....<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence><BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Bill" <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:53 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > > Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training) -<BR>
> > > retrotech and proud<BR>
> > > of it.<BR>
<Snip><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Tod<BR>
><BR>
<Snip><BR>
><BR>
> I remember that there was a thread that mentioned memwipe....What<BR>
> about drugs to recover lost memories. I seem to remember you doing<BR>
> something similar to this to Nicolai at one time Tod.<BR>
><BR>
> Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
><BR>
> Bill "Alzheimer candidate" Eastlick<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:28:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
Glenn, I would like to use that paraphrase as a tagline from time to time.<BR>
Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give attribution?<BR>
<BR>
Thom<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 4:00 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> >From: KenRoney@aol.com<BR>
><BR>
> >I'm sure that there are older guys around here.  I'm 42<BR>
> >and have been playing Traveller off & on since 1979 or<BR>
> >so.  My memory of those early sessions are getting fuzzier<BR>
> >every day :-)<BR>
><BR>
> I'm a few months younger and have been playing and<BR>
> refereeing on and off since about 1978 or maybe 1979 (I'm<BR>
> not sure if it was sophomore or junior year of college<BR>
> anymore).  To paraphrase John Prine, Traveller will get you<BR>
> through times of no money a lot better than money will get<BR>
> you through times of no Traveller.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> __________________________________________________<BR>
> Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
> http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:38:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: SURGICAL ROBOT APPROVED<BR>
<BR>
The Food and Drug Administration cleared for marketing a<BR>
computer-controlled robotic device capable of performing<BR>
laparoscopic gall bladder and reflux disease surgery. The surgeon<BR>
uses a computer and video monitor, as well as hand grips and foot<BR>
pedals to control three robotic arms that perform the operation.<BR>
The product is the first of its kind, and was built by Intuitive<BR>
Surgical, Inc. "This system is the first step in the development<BR>
of new robotic technology that eventually could change the<BR>
practice of surgery," said FDA commissioner Jane E. Henney. The<BR>
arms also have a "wrist" built near their tips, which give<BR>
surgeons a greater ability to manipulate the instrument. The<BR>
instrument actually took longer to perform the surgeries than<BR>
standard procedures, but that was attributed in part to lack of<BR>
experience in using them.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.msnbc.com/news/431684.asp?cp1=1<BR>
<BR>
(Re. the picture with this article - other than the surgical gowns, it isn't<BR>
obvious that this<BR>
*is* a surgical procedure, rather than an overhaul on a jump drive.)<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Obviously medical personnel require Robot Ops to a high degree.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:54:26 +0300<BR>
From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
Subject: Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
<BR>
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
> > Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
> > *know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules?  Would, for<BR>
> > instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
> > visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
> > or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
> > inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
> > something similiar]" ?<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd say the scout would say "TL6", and then qualify it with "Early Atomic<BR>
> Stage, BTL 7, GTL 4, PTL 7, STL 6,.." etc.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that a survey scout would say so and maybe also some engineers,<BR>
but I doubt that ordinary citizens would concern themselves with tech<BR>
levels. After all TL is a rather loose concept. A TL15 world citizen<BR>
coming from TL8 world would probably just comment that the world he<BR>
visited was so primitive that they didn't even have grav traffic<BR>
control, that the toilet was flushed with water and the waiters were<BR>
human even in family restaurants.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:06:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella writes:<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/11/00 5:54 PM, ajackson@molly.iii.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
 <BR>
> I don't know much about the Hero system, but I looked at your "Perks" and<BR>
> was struck by the fact you have Scout but not Merchant. It should probably<BR>
> cost more, due to the Freetrader.<BR>
<BR>
A free trader is actually an owned ship, and probably wealth.  I can't give a proper cost until I have the ship design rules worked out, which are being a pain.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:37:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
Der!<BR>
<BR>
You know what PBG stood for has been driving<BR>
me mad for months and it never occured to me to<BR>
just ask.<BR>
<BR>
Doh!<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 3:37 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Backgrounds<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 801 indicates that the world has a Population<BR>
multiplier of 8 (8 * 10^P,<BR>
> where P=Population code in the UWP), and the system<BR>
has zero<BR>
> planetoid/asteroid belts and one gas giant.  This is<BR>
often referred to<BR>
> as the "PBG" code.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Just from a quick reading:<BR>
> <BR>
> I see you're using the GT version of TAS membership - one crappy <BR>
> passage per year.<BR>
<BR>
Shrug.  What should it be?  One medium per month?  One high per year?<BR>
> <BR>
> Status seems a bit cheap, given that it gives you rulership and +5 PRE <BR>
> per level when 5PRE costs the same as one level.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps I should change it, though it isn't really +5 PRE, its just +5 PRE in circumstances where people would be likely to be impressed by your status (which is most of the time, but not always).<BR>
> <BR>
> With Psionics, is there any particular reason you made the points work <BR>
> the way they do? It seems more in keeping with Hero to have given a <BR>
> seperate END pool with its own REC, etc.<BR>
<BR>
I did it this way because (a) its cheaper, and (b) using a simple END reserve doesn't allow me to have the rules for increasing the duration of feats.<BR>
> <BR>
> Races:<BR>
> <BR>
> Where did you get Hivers being Psi resistant? They weren't in TNE, <BR>
> AFAIK. Also I would've thought they'd have got a reduction in running.<BR>
<BR>
Shrug.  In GT at least they're listed as being non-psionic and very difficult to read.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:08:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> We've found a set of overalls similar to the one Jesse daraws, and we're<BR>
> making the "I (heart) H. E." patch.<BR>
><BR>
Make it obviously Traveller related (ie: put your logo on it, somewhere, <BR>
somehow) and I know I would buy at least one! I have a flight suit that <BR>
would look so much better with for the addition.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:54:42 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Moin Thom Harris,<BR>
<BR>
> Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give attribution?<BR>
<BR>
  well I think the original is quite old and about mariuana.<BR>
<BR>
  " Weed will get you through times of no money a lot better than money<BR>
  will get you through times of no weed. "<BR>
<BR>
  But it may be that is even more older and about alcohol in times<BR>
  of prohibition. An other brick in the same wall :<BR>
<BR>
  " Those who want to relax in should take drugs, those who want to<BR>
  get rich, should sell them. "<BR>
<BR>
  Original "Meister Proper" at Bremer Poetry Slam Nam.<BR>
<BR>
  " Wer ruhe will soll drogen nehmen, wer reich sein will, sie verkaufen. "<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
<BR>
PS : This cite is as bad migrated to Traveller, as the "John Prine" one.<BR>
  Traveller is bad for money - Traveller is more like a ship. A hole in<BR>
  space to throw money in - Think about GDW and IG.<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2753<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 12 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2754<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
re:  TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
astrogating with a slide rule!<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
RE: Traveller vs. Money; age setting in<BR>
Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
Re : Neat Toys<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
RE: Traveller vs. Money; age setting in<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
RE: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:25:06 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
> I've been playing around with converting Traveller to the Hero system.  <BR>
> My current results are off of my maps page (yah, they don't make much <BR>
> sense there and aren't linked) at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/hero . <BR>
> Comments on my implementations?  Does anyone care?<BR>
<BR>
You might look at Jason Kemp's version of Traveller Hero:<BR>
<BR>
http://home.flash.net/~flynn1/travhero.htm<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:49:05 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Moin Thom Harris,<BR>
> <BR>
> > Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give attribution?<BR>
> <BR>
>   well I think the original is quite old and about mariuana.<BR>
> <BR>
>   " Weed will get you through times of no money a lot better than money<BR>
>   will get you through times of no weed. "<BR>
<BR>
<sheepish> Didn't know that was a Prine quote, I always attributed it to<BR>
the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:57:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
>Do most of these small worlds have artificial gravity? If<BR>
>so, how much? 1 G? 0.8 G?<BR>
<BR>
I assume that any world of size A+ or 5- that can will run<BR>
artificial gravity at 1.0 G whereever people spend a lot of<BR>
time, like in cities and homes.  "Can" is the question:  Is<BR>
it technically possible?  Yes at TL 9+.  Is it economically<BR>
feasible?  That depends on how much surface area needs to<BR>
be subjected to artificial gravity, how wealthy the world<BR>
is, etc.  That's usually a referee handwave, and I usually<BR>
handwave it to be 1.0 G.<BR>
<BR>
>One more comment: I liked Glenn Goffin's comment about how<BR>
>he assumed the balkanization was due to the<BR>
Imperial->Zhodani split. Done. That's now incorporated into<BR>
*my* >version also. <BR>
<BR>
Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
>I'm just not sure how the joint administration works yet.<BR>
>Suggestions are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
This could be a little like the joint administration of<BR>
Germany and especially Berlin after WW2.  I think that<BR>
there should only be one starport, just to make things<BR>
extra complicated.  Should the starport be in the Imperial<BR>
Zone, the Zhodani Zone, or straddling the border?  Should<BR>
one or both sides be working on building a new starport for<BR>
its exclusive use?  What does the treaty say?<BR>
<BR>
I'll think on this a little and maybe have a few ideas<BR>
later.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:03:01 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Luther Martin,<BR>
<BR>
> I am puzzled by how to understand the gravity you would experience on<BR>
> Esalin. Esalin only has a diameter of about 5000 miles, so it's hard to<BR>
> handwave anything close to 1 G. More like 0.5-0.6 perhaps, but not anything<BR>
> close to 1.<BR>
<BR>
  Local population adopted to low gravity by selection during the centuries.<BR>
  So they have more problems, if they want to leave their world, to travell<BR>
  to a high G worlds than travellers have.<BR>
<BR>
  Low G is also bad for imported ground vehicles, as the traction is lower.<BR>
  Its more difficult for them to accellerate, stop or to change direction.<BR>
<BR>
> So how do people adapt to an environment of 0.5 G?<BR>
  <BR>
  Travellers to Esalin will adapt to the low G environment at a rate of<BR>
  0.1G/month. And would have problems when they are back home.<BR>
<BR>
>>Does it cause some sort<BR>
> of bone loss or degradation? Since Esalin is only TL 8, you can't just<BR>
> assume that everyone has a gravity-controlled house in which they live.<BR>
<BR>
  Gravity-controlled house are a bad to health as the american habit of<BR>
  air conditioning everything.<BR>
<BR>
> How does 0.6 G affect the growth of plants? Do plants grow faster in a lower<BR>
> gravity, ceteris paribus?<BR>
<BR>
  plants adopt much faster by selection. Section rate of mariuana from<BR>
  a plant that is good for ropes and feeding the horses, to a plant I<BR>
  like to smoke is about 5 years. The same is also vice versa, if fields<BR>
  are not maintained. So the first collonie of Esalin would have productive<BR>
  plants within the first 5 years, to adapt preselected geeneered plants<BR>
  to the local climate. Nothing to worry in CT,MT,TNE ;-)<BR>
<BR>
> One more comment: I liked Glenn Goffin's comment about how he assumed the<BR>
> balkanization was due to the Imperial-Zhodani split. Done. That's now<BR>
> incorporated into *my* version also. I'm just not sure how the joint<BR>
> administration works yet. Suggestions are welcome.<BR>
<BR>
  1004 C565673-8 Ag Ni Ri<BR>
<BR>
  Esalin has a class C starport. IMTU class C mean - its possible to<BR>
  unload,load & refuel a ship in orbit. This could be done with two<BR>
  small D 'downports', and shuttle service. Else we have the question,<BR>
  if both Imperial and Zho maintain a class C orbiter ? They wont like<BR>
  to share the same orbiter, but what about downport ? A downport and<BR>
  shuttle service is also the most easy way for Tl:8 to become classified<BR>
  as C starport.<BR>
<BR>
  A 'Berlin' like solution, would be to expect streamlined starships<BR>
  to land in a big lake. This lake has two cities at its coasts. One<BR>
  for the Imp's and one for the Zho's. Both cities have plantary<BR>
  advanced defense of Tl:14, to control orbit. Meson guns have a<BR>
  limited short range, so they cant shoot on each other, because<BR>
  they are to close.<BR>
  <BR>
  Only a quarter of the local population lives in one of the two<BR>
  cities. Most of the population is aligned in smaller units, who may<BR>
  support this side now, and the other next. The possibilty that either<BR>
  side would use those meson guns against local groups, is good for<BR>
  'we have a nuke in boot of the benz' like cold war senarios.<BR>
<BR>
  If I think about 2 million balkanised locals, I imagine them like<BR>
  the 'canadian dream' : Move housing, if you can see neighborhoods<BR>
  smokestacks. Many families have a light assault rifle in their<BR>
  locker, reflecting a local law level of 3, and their with, not to<BR>
  be controled by any planet wide state, or even outside influence.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:07:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: astrogating with a slide rule!<BR>
<BR>
We All Died at Breakaway Station (by somebody Meredith?)<BR>
has the unforgettable line, "A slide rule! a goddamned<BR>
slide rule! we're astrogating with a slide rule!" or<BR>
something to that effect.  A small starship has sustained<BR>
battle damage and its computer is out, so the crew is<BR>
reduced to navigating with a slide rule.  The book was<BR>
written in the 1960s, I think.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
(I learned to use a slide rule in high school chemistry<BR>
class in the fall of 1974.  In the spring semester, the<BR>
pocket calculator hit the market, and we all watched the<BR>
price drop and drop -- "no, it'll never get below $X; I<BR>
might as well buy one now" was inevitably followed by<BR>
"aaaghgh! today they're only $X-10!") (I just used the<BR>
slide rule until that summer.  Then I didn't need to do<BR>
calculations anymore for a long time, until I started doing<BR>
a lot of High Guard and Striker designs, which led me to<BR>
buy a calculator for about $5.00 -- which ran for over ten<BR>
years and so far as I know is still running (I'm just not<BR>
sure which box it's in).) <BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:12:38 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Moin Frank G. Pitt,<BR>
<BR>
> I'd say the scout would say "TL6", and then qualify it with "Early Atomic<BR>
> Stage, BTL 7, GTL 4, PTL 7, STL 6,.." etc.<BR>
<BR>
  I think that those UPP's are Sylean standard.<BR>
<BR>
> This is because the "UPP" is part of the milieu, but that the UPP doesn't<BR>
> have enough detail to give a reasonable understanding  of what actually is<BR>
> going on, so there is probably an IISS "Extended UPP" that gives TL<BR>
> information on particular types of  technology, the UP TL being an average<BR>
> of the values for the different sciences.<BR>
<BR>
  I can also imagine a more precise survey data, dividing Tl in sections,<BR>
  but Tl does does !NOT! mean science and knowledge, but application. So<BR>
  only Tl:8 production, would qualify for Tl:8 as a code.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:07:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller vs. Money; age setting in<BR>
<BR>
>From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
>Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>PS : This cite is as bad migrated to Traveller, as the "John Prine" one.<BR>
>  Traveller is bad for money - Traveller is more like a ship. A hole in<BR>
>  space to throw money in - Think about GDW and IG.<BR>
<BR>
	Actually, if I think waaay back to the upper paleolithic of 1979-80, I was<BR>
able to do a whole lot with just books 1-4 and a couple of suppliments, what<BR>
would that have set me back then?  $40?  Granted, a whole lot for a kid in<BR>
highschool saving his lunch money to buy Traveller stuff (don't tell my mom<BR>
about that :), but once you have those few books, all you need is LOTS of<BR>
paper and imagination.  If we were to be dropped on the proverbial 'desert<BR>
island' (deserted planet?), I could still run a game for years.  The new<BR>
stuff is great (far be it for me to complain, I keep emptying the 'ol wallet<BR>
at regular intervals), but you don't _have_ to have them.  With weed or<BR>
alcohol, if you don't keep payin', you don't keep playin'.<BR>
	Stick with the passtimes that _excercise_ your brain, not turn it into goo.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, sliding down the slippery slope to "old fart"-ism.  (and as a<BR>
matter of fact, that music IS too damn loud!  And music?  You call that<BR>
music??  Five minutes of obscenities chanted to "Casio rhythm pattern A" on<BR>
'yer damn keyboard?  That's not music!  I've heard my cat hacking up<BR>
hairballs that sounded more musical than that...learn to write a frikkin<BR>
_melody_ fer cryin' out loud; I know it is too much to ask that you actually<BR>
learn to _play_ those instruments!  *#&*^$@ kids these days....  Yeah,<BR>
'Veedback', 1114 tour, now _THAT_ was music)  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - they just pay me, they don't tell me what to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:15:22 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
<BR>
An interesting story fromthe BBC, gasoline-powered "jumper boots" that<BR>
allow running speeds of over 40 kph.<BR>
<BR>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_820000/820398.stm<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:38:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Michael Koehne writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   I can also imagine a more precise survey data, dividing Tl in sections,<BR>
>   but Tl does does !NOT! mean science and knowledge, but application. So<BR>
>   only Tl:8 production, would qualify for Tl:8 as a code.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, that's vague for various reasons.  Basically, while its reasonably clear that it is in theory possible for someone from a TL-8 world to learn TL-15 sciences, in practice he probably needs to go to a university on a TL-15 world to actually do so (at least, in any significant detail).  To consider an analogous case, someone from sub-saharan africa isn't prevented from learning modern sciences, but will probably go to the united states or europe to actually learn them.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:39:05 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:54:26 +0300<BR>
>From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
<BR>
>I agree that a survey scout would say so and maybe also some engineers,<BR>
>but I doubt that ordinary citizens would concern themselves with tech<BR>
>levels. <BR>
<BR>
That's generally how I see it, with one exception:  if a world's<BR>
recorded TL *relative to its neighbours* becomes a matter of public<BR>
interest, pride or jealousy.  For example:<BR>
<BR>
77  Bureaucrat, Noble<BR>
While on the planet Someplace A867945-E, the players are approached by<BR>
a young woman who identifies herself as working for the government<BR>
public relations office on "Project TLF".  She explains that over the<BR>
next few months, the IISS will be sending a survey team through the<BR>
subsector to check and update each world's UWP for the official<BR>
records.  There are currently four worlds in this subsector at TL14,<BR>
and none at TL15;  however, the Someplace government is confident that<BR>
this new survey will grant the world a TL15 rating.  This will bring<BR>
huge benefits:  the government is already planning a worldwide "TLF"<BR>
celebration which should boost its popularity rating immensly.  Even<BR>
more important, being the only TL15 world in the subsector will make<BR>
Someplace a beacon for inward investment and Imperial contracts.  With<BR>
such high stakes to play for, there is a chance that rival worlds will<BR>
attempt to interfere with the survey;  the players' job will be to<BR>
prevent this.<BR>
<BR>
1  Everything is as it seems;  the players will spend an unexciting<BR>
few weeks going on endless tours of high-tech factories and research<BR>
centres.<BR>
<BR>
2  As above, but an agent of a rival world will arrange a clandestine<BR>
meeting with one of the IISS team, in order to bribe them into making<BR>
Someplace fail its survey.  The players will have to either prevent<BR>
this, expose the fraud, or persuade the Someplace government to offer<BR>
a counter-bribe. (Note that the bribe need not be just money...)<BR>
<BR>
3  As above, but the rival world is attempting blackmail rather than<BR>
bribery.<BR>
<BR>
4  Agents of the rival world will attempt to sabotage several of the<BR>
high-tech facilities to be visited, in such a way that the damage<BR>
looks like manufacturing failure (caused by producing machinery at a<BR>
TL too high to be sustained).<BR>
<BR>
(etc)<BR>
<BR>
Think what a big deal for a country getting the Olympics or the World<BR>
Cup is now, then translate this into Traveller terms...<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:03:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
<BR>
>I am now using a new term for dealing with my teenager,<BR>
>"Selective Alzheimer's". They have been using it against <BR>
<BR>
This will also teach your teenager good workplace habits: <BR>
send a confirming email and/or memorandum after every<BR>
conversation in which the other person agreed to do<BR>
something; then follow up frequently until the task has<BR>
been accomplished.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, we grown-ups are already good at quickly<BR>
reducing everything to writing.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
<BR>
>Glenn, I would like to use that paraphrase as a tagline<BR>
>from time to time.<BR>
>Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give<BR>
>attribution?<BR>
<BR>
I have no idea, but I'll bet you can find him on the web<BR>
somewhere and ask.  There must be many fan sites.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:18:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Jul 00, at 23:08, robocon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :-<BR>
> > The one I got hold of at high school was their improvised weapons <BR>
> > handbook. Full of useful stuff like how to make mercury filminate <BR>
> > (sp?), blackpowder, fertilizer expolsive, etc, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Mercury fulminate. That's the stuff that used to go in percussion caps and<BR>
> primers, isn't it?<BR>
<BR>
It is indeed. Throughly unstable and tends to corrode barrels, but if <BR>
you have to make your own primers it's the thing to use.<BR>
<BR>
> It's funny how all this stuff was available for a long time in the open<BR>
> literature... then the Internet comes along and everyone gets unduly<BR>
> nervous.<BR>
<BR>
Here in NZ the fuss was triggered by David Gray (the nutbar who got our <BR>
gun laws tightend by killing 13 people) having a stack of this stuff in <BR>
his house.<BR>
<BR>
> The Office of Technology Assessment's book, which described likely<BR>
> deployment scenarios (one city, counterforce, economic decapitation<BR>
> strikes, spasm) for strategic nukes made sobering reading. I'm glad that<BR>
> my high school library had it ; I wish I could obtain a copy for my<BR>
> collection.<BR>
<BR>
If you want a nice up-beat discussion on nuclear war, try the book <BR>
commissioned by the NZ government in the mid 80s. Basically it says <BR>
"we'll be OK, so there's nothing to worry about." It then goes on to <BR>
say that nuclear winter will only affect the northen hemisphere <BR>
significantly, and that New Zealand will find things a bit rough, but <BR>
will be OK, and the difficult questions for us are things like "How <BR>
much control over resource allocation should the central government and <BR>
how much (extra) centralisation should there be?" I found the blase <BR>
attitude shown by this bok (and our governemnt) to be more frighting <BR>
than the nukes themselves.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:18:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Jul 00, at 9:52, Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Just from a quick reading:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > I see you're using the GT version of TAS membership - one crappy <BR>
> > passage per year.<BR>
> <BR>
> Shrug.  What should it be?  One medium per month?  One high per year? <BR>
<BR>
Didn't it used to be a medium per month?<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> Status seems a bit cheap, given that it gives you rulership and +5 PRE ><BR>
> per level when 5PRE costs the same as one level.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps I should change it, though it isn't really +5 PRE, its just +5 PRE<BR>
> in circumstances where people would be likely to be impressed by your<BR>
> status (which is most of the time, but not always). <BR>
<BR>
I guess it actually depends on how useful being a ruler is.<BR>
<BR>
> > With Psionics, is<BR>
> there any particular reason you made the points work > the way they do? It<BR>
> seems more in keeping with Hero to have given a > seperate END pool with<BR>
> its own REC, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> I did it this way because (a) its cheaper, and (b) using a simple END<BR>
> reserve doesn't allow me to have the rules for increasing the duration of<BR>
> feats. <BR>
<BR>
Fair enough.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:30:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller vs. Money; age setting in<BR>
<BR>
> 	Actually, if I think waaay back to the upper paleolithic of<BR>
> 1979-80, I was<BR>
> able to do a whole lot with just books 1-4 and a couple of<BR>
> suppliments, what<BR>
<BR>
I agree most wholeheartedly.  While I have a tendency to buy anything<BR>
traveller related, It's book 1-4 and supplement 3 (Spinward Marches) that<BR>
show the most wear.  Now my biggest frustration is that 20 years of gaming<BR>
have left me with a bunch of material that is not 'canon'.  My response--"So<BR>
what". The Regina/REGINA we've created is like a real place.  Most of my<BR>
players know the up port as well as their home town.  There is no substitute<BR>
for imagination.<BR>
<BR>
> 	Rod Basler, sliding down the slippery slope to "old<BR>
> fart"-ism.  (and as a<BR>
> matter of fact, that music IS too damn loud!  And music?  You call that<BR>
> music??  Five minutes of obscenities chanted to "Casio rhythm<BR>
> pattern A" on<BR>
> 'yer damn keyboard?  That's not music!  I've heard my cat hacking up<BR>
> hairballs that sounded more musical than that...learn to write a frikkin<BR>
> _melody_ fer cryin' out loud; I know it is too much to ask that<BR>
> you actually<BR>
> learn to _play_ those instruments!  *#&*^$@ kids these days....  Yeah,<BR>
> 'Veedback', 1114 tour, now _THAT_ was music)  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer - they just pay me, they don't tell me what to think.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
You forgot the gratuitous 'whippersnapper'.<BR>
<BR>
tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:26:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Hahahahaha.... Thanks Michael, good post, I needed something to perk up my<BR>
day........<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence><BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Michael Koehne" <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
To: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>; <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 10:54 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Thom Harris,<BR>
><BR>
> > Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give attribution?<BR>
><BR>
>   well I think the original is quite old and about mariuana.<BR>
><BR>
>   " Weed will get you through times of no money a lot better than money<BR>
>   will get you through times of no weed. "<BR>
><BR>
>   But it may be that is even more older and about alcohol in times<BR>
>   of prohibition. An other brick in the same wall :<BR>
><BR>
>   " Those who want to relax in should take drugs, those who want to<BR>
>   get rich, should sell them. "<BR>
><BR>
>   Original "Meister Proper" at Bremer Poetry Slam Nam.<BR>
><BR>
>   " Wer ruhe will soll drogen nehmen, wer reich sein will, sie verkaufen.<BR>
"<BR>
><BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
><BR>
> PS : This cite is as bad migrated to Traveller, as the "John Prine" one.<BR>
>   Traveller is bad for money - Traveller is more like a ship. A hole in<BR>
>   space to throw money in - Think about GDW and IG.<BR>
> --<BR>
>   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
>   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:29:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Hmmmm, thought it sounded familiar but just couldn't place it...<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence><BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 11:49 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Michael Koehne wrote:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Moin Thom Harris,<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Do you think John Prine would mind as long as I give attribution?<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   well I think the original is quite old and about mariuana.<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   " Weed will get you through times of no money a lot better than money<BR>
> >   will get you through times of no weed. "<BR>
> <BR>
> <sheepish> Didn't know that was a Prine quote, I always attributed it to<BR>
> the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:42:16 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
I took a look at http://maps.grandsurvey.com/ at work today, and I<BR>
really like it. Thanks for all the effort you've put into this, Anthony.<BR>
It sparked a few ideas and prompted a few questions:<BR>
<BR>
SOURCE CODE:<BR>
Anthony, would you consider putting the source code for the program you<BR>
use to generate the trade routes on the site? It doesn't matter what<BR>
language.<BR>
<BR>
FAR FRONTIERS SECTOR:<BR>
I know the UWPs have been published; does the data really not exist on<BR>
the web somewhere? It seems odd that this should be missing when so many<BR>
sectors about which canon says nothing are there. Also it makes an<BR>
unsightly hole in the map ATM... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
TRADE ROUTES IN EARLIER MILIEUX:<BR>
What adjustments would need to be made to the trade route generation<BR>
algorithm for earlier milieux, for instance M0, when common and maximum<BR>
jump numbers were less? I would like to see a similar map for the<BR>
(corrected) First Survey data.<BR>
<BR>
FILLING IN THE GAPS:<BR>
I am tempted to start generating the sectors which really *are* blank<BR>
slates ATM, beginning with Windhorn (df), then Leonidae (hj), Theron<BR>
(g5), Waroatahe (ia) and Karleaya (ib). If I were to do this I would<BR>
begin with the dot maps in _Solomani & Aslan_ and _Vilani & Vargr_,<BR>
using them for world positions and political boundaries where possible;<BR>
then randomly generate UWPs as a first approximation; then study it for<BR>
a loong time and adjust to make it a fun place to adventure. Of course,<BR>
I'm unlikely to actually do that, so if anyone else likes the idea have<BR>
at it!<BR>
<BR>
Note: Leonidae isn't on those dot maps but the HIWG Quadrant IV site<BR>
has some extending further to trailing.<BR>
<BR>
That's all for now,<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:45:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Mercury fulminate. That's the stuff that used to go in<BR>
> percussion caps and<BR>
> > primers, isn't it?<BR>
><BR>
> It is indeed. Throughly unstable and tends to corrode barrels, but if<BR>
> you have to make your own primers it's the thing to use.<BR>
<BR>
A little on the touchy side, and not really good for the bore.  Lead<BR>
Styphinate isn't to much harder. Bear in mind, though, that all these<BR>
compounds frequently blow up experts.  The CCI ammo plant in Lewiston Idaho<BR>
has a  'blow out' roof<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, just for fun it's hard to beat NI3<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 13:58:56 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
<BR>
Very cool idea!<BR>
<BR>
Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:54:26 +0300<BR>
> >From: Paul =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FCnnap?= <paul@sorainen.ee><BR>
> <BR>
> >I agree that a survey scout would say so and maybe also some engineers,<BR>
> >but I doubt that ordinary citizens would concern themselves with tech<BR>
> >levels.<BR>
> <BR>
> That's generally how I see it, with one exception:  if a world's<BR>
> recorded TL *relative to its neighbours* becomes a matter of public<BR>
> interest, pride or jealousy.  For example:<BR>
> <BR>
> 77  Bureaucrat, Noble<BR>
> While on the planet Someplace A867945-E,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:34:59 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Moin Anthony Jackson,<BR>
<BR>
> >   I can also imagine a more precise survey data, dividing Tl in sections,<BR>
> >   but Tl does does !NOT! mean science and knowledge, but application. So<BR>
> >   only Tl:8 production, would qualify for Tl:8 as a code.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, that's vague for various reasons.  Basically, while its<BR>
> reasonably clear that it is in theory possible for someone from a<BR>
> TL-8 world to learn TL-15 sciences, in practice he probably needs to<BR>
> go to a university on a TL-15 world to actually do so (at least, in<BR>
> any significant detail).  To consider an analogous case, someone from<BR>
> sub-saharan africa isn't prevented from learning modern sciences, but<BR>
> will probably go to the united states or europe to actually learn them.<BR>
<BR>
  For this reason, production qualifies for techlevel. If the planet is<BR>
  known to produce TL:7 car's, it'll get a Tl:7 classification. If its<BR>
  known to have Tl:8 agra production, its classified as Tl:8.<BR>
<BR>
  Put those educated people back in their bush, and they'll be back to<BR>
  the productive techlevel of their country, regardless of how many books<BR>
  and diplomas they have. The thing is even worse, if you think about<BR>
  sustaining techlevel. A handy formular constrains, imtu, the peak<BR>
  techlevel of an economy to the poplevel it can support with infrastructure<BR>
  for free available trade and travell.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2754<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 12 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2755<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
ISS Online<BR>
Re : Neat Toys<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Sly Drools (was RE: Symptom of Age)<BR>
The Great List of Lists...<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
Gravity effects guidelines<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
Fw: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
Fw: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - NOTES<BR>
Battledress and RE: Ditzie<BR>
RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:24:43 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
robocon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > So how do people adapt to an environment of 0.5 G? Does it<BR>
> cause some sort<BR>
> > of bone loss or degradation?<BR>
><BR>
> Bone demineralisation and loss of muscle mass (skeletal and cardiac)<BR>
> will be the primary changes. The rapidity of loss will obviously be<BR>
> slower than that in free-fall/microgravity conditions, but it will be<BR>
> present.<BR>
<BR>
Can these effects be countered by exercise? So that the inhabitants of a 0.5<BR>
G world are OK as long as they exercise regularly.<BR>
<BR>
> Compared to humans living at 1G, blood volume will be less (change over<BR>
> weeks) and acceleration/other physiological stresses will be less well<BR>
> tolerated (resetting of baroreceptor reflexes and autonomic tone).<BR>
<BR>
Same as above. Can these effects be countered by exercise?<BR>
<BR>
Since so many planets in the Traveller universe are fairly small, it may be<BR>
fairly common to see some sort of governmengt mandated or encouraged program<BR>
of exercise to counter the effects of the lower gravity, assuming that<BR>
exercise will do this, of course.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, there must be all sorts of negative effects of higher<BR>
gravity also. It makes great science-fiction to have bad news guys from<BR>
high-G planets, but is this remotely realistic?<BR>
<BR>
Does a high-G environment also enhance the ability to withstand acceleration<BR>
or other stresses? If this is the case, I can imagine that the higher tech<BR>
level militaries make extensive use of high-G training techniques. Those<BR>
marines which are boarding your ship are not just heavily armed and<BR>
well-trained, but they have enhanced abilities due to their high-G training.<BR>
Just like we used to have something like 20% of our training at night, I can<BR>
imagine analogous regulations in the Imperial forces.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:59:45 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: ISS Online<BR>
<BR>
Hy folks,<BR>
  <BR>
  ISS part 2, and the computer's are from Bremen ;-)<BR>
  <BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:48:00 +1000<BR>
From: robocon <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> OTOH, just for fun it's hard to beat NI3<BR>
<BR>
Nitrogen triiodide - 'touch powder'.<BR>
Ahh, memories of undergraduate chemistry and residential colleges...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:15:08 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
G:T pp 35 states that it is one Medium per month.  I beleive this <BR>
jives with canon<BR>
<BR>
On 13 Jul 2000, at 8:18, Rupert Boleyn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
> > <BR>
> > > Just from a quick reading:<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > I see you're using the GT version of TAS membership - one crappy<BR>
> > > passage per year.<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Shrug.  What should it be?  One medium per month?  One high per<BR>
> > year? <BR>
> <BR>
> Didn't it used to be a medium per month?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:25:20 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Sly Drools (was RE: Symptom of Age)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:52:42 -0400 (EDT), "Tod Glenn"<BR>
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
[Quoting Rod Basler]<BR>
<BR>
>> 	Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my<BR>
>> old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
>> Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
>> when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US<BR>
>> of A to have<BR>
>> actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in 1983 and I<BR>
>> wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
>> exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
>> didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
<BR>
>Rod, I am looking at my Pickett 12" yellow slide-rule right now.  With book<BR>
>and registration card.  And yes, I still know how to use it (basic fuctions<BR>
>like logs and multiplication).  I delight in showing it to youngsters, who<BR>
>have no clue that we went to the moon using these guys.  And since I am<BR>
>older than you by a smidgen, WE ARE NOT OLD! (Maybe just crotchety, I know I<BR>
>am).  I prefer the term "experienced".<BR>
<BR>
Let's see, how old is "old" (or 'not old', if you prefer) in your<BR>
cases - I'm 36, and I'm sitting at my computer right now with an<BR>
odd-looking thing in my hand that definitely answers to the<BR>
definition of a slide rule, although it's round.  I was using it<BR>
20 years ago in math class (the math teacher didn't believe I<BR>
knew how to use it - so I taught him), and used it right through<BR>
my sophomore year in college (after which I didn't need to take<BR>
any classes that needed it).  If you're older than I am, then I'd<BR>
say I have you beat for being the last person to use one in<BR>
college.<BR>
<BR>
(I used to have a "real" one, but I think it was really my<BR>
father's, and ended up with him when I moved out of his house.<BR>
I'd love to get a nice one, but where?)<BR>
<BR>
(According to some pictures my mother has, when I was less than a<BR>
year old, I apparently had a slide rule - or, more correctly, a<BR>
"sly drool" as a squeak-toy [hence the subject :)].  So, I<BR>
suppose you could say I started early...)<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:25:22 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: The Great List of Lists...<BR>
<BR>
... needs updating, 'cause it ain't so great.<BR>
<BR>
Folks, if you are the owner or principal moderator of a<BR>
Traveller-related mailing list, please write me privately with<BR>
the information below.  If you aren't, but know the owner or<BR>
principal moderator of a Traveller-related mailing list, please<BR>
ask the owner to write me privately with the information below.<BR>
I want to update the InfoCenter page at Freelance Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
What Info Do I Want?<BR>
<BR>
The name of the list.<BR>
A brief description of what the list is about.<BR>
Instructions for subscribing.<BR>
Can the subscriber get individual messages?<BR>
Can the subscriber get a periodic digest?<BR>
Can the subscriber view messages in a web archive?<BR>
Approximate periodic traffic (messages per unit time).<BR>
Contact for more info.<BR>
<BR>
A sample "entry" might look like this:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller-Culture<BR>
Development of sourcebook-type background information for<BR>
cultures in the Traveller universe.<BR>
email to Traveller-Culture-subscribe@egroups.com, or visit<BR>
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/Traveller-Culture<BR>
Individual messages, digest, web archive all available.<BR>
Traffic approximately 30 messages per month, widely variable.<BR>
Contact Traveller-Culture-owner@egroups.com or<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:46:26 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
> From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
> <BR>
> Rupert Boleyn writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > Just from a quick reading:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I see you're using the GT version of TAS membership - one crappy<BR>
> > passage per year.<BR>
> <BR>
> Shrug.  What should it be?  One medium per month?  One high per year?<BR>
<BR>
	One High passage per month.<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Status seems a bit cheap, given that it gives you rulership and +5 PRE<BR>
> > per level when 5PRE costs the same as one level.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps I should change it, though it isn't really +5 PRE, its just +5 PRE in circumstances where people would be likely to be impressed by your status (which is most of the time, but not always).<BR>
> ><BR>
> > With Psionics, is there any particular reason you made the points work<BR>
> > the way they do? It seems more in keeping with Hero to have given a<BR>
> > seperate END pool with its own REC, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> I did it this way because (a) its cheaper, and (b) using a simple END reserve doesn't allow me to have the rules for increasing the duration of feats.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Races:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Where did you get Hivers being Psi resistant? They weren't in TNE,<BR>
> > AFAIK. Also I would've thought they'd have got a reduction in running.<BR>
> <BR>
> Shrug.  In GT at least they're listed as being non-psionic and very difficult to read.<BR>
<BR>
	The Hivers immune to Psionics is a CT thing: AR7 p22-23. In Aliens of<BR>
the Rim, the Hivers Psi immunity was explained as their fear of the<BR>
entire thing. <BR>
<BR>
	Personally I like the CT version. Psionics (at least the mind affecting<BR>
versions) should only effect similar brains, which the Hivers do not<BR>
have.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:43:51 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Thom Jones-Low writes:<BR>
<BR>
>      Personally I like the CT version. Psionics (at least the mind<BR>
> affecting versions) should only effect similar brains, which the Hivers do<BR>
> not have.<BR>
<BR>
Mental defense accomplishes this fairly well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:07:37 EDT<BR>
From: RvKsword@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Star Trigger (was Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/11/00 1:00:39 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
SmithW@hartwick.edu writes:<BR>
<BR>
> to the local ecosystem.  This deals with the question, "if planets<BR>
>  light-years away were singed, why wasn't Darrian vaporized?".<BR>
>  <BR>
<BR>
According to the Regency Sourcebook, the other colonies were only hit by the <BR>
EMP blast, the gas wave front only hit Darrian, "...arriving three weeks <BR>
later moving at 300,000 kph, raising surface temps to 250 degrees, burining <BR>
entire forests, vaporizing seas, and killing 80% of the worlds inhabitants, <BR>
and half the Darrian fleet as well..."<BR>
RvK<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
v^v^v  "Oh god, aliens!!!  Oh well, I suppose you want to probe me now huh?"<BR>
"No human, we have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."<BR>
"Oh that's a relief!!"<BR>
"Yes, now open wide and say ahhhh...."  v^v^v<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:56:41 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Gravity effects guidelines<BR>
<BR>
Based on my thoughts on Esalin and its moderate-G environment, I propose the<BR>
following guidelines for characters operating in environments without<BR>
artificial gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Characters will lose (or gain, for planet size greater that 8) one point of<BR>
strength, dexterity, and endurance for each two weeks spent in the<BR>
low/high-G environment, up to the following limits:<BR>
<BR>
Planet Size   Limit<BR>
A             +2<BR>
9             +1<BR>
8             0<BR>
7             -1<BR>
6             -2<BR>
5             -3<BR>
4             -4<BR>
3             -5<BR>
2             -6<BR>
1             -7<BR>
0             -8<BR>
<BR>
At no time will the abilities be adjusted below 1, or above F.<BR>
<BR>
Upon returning to the normal 1 G environment, a character will regain/lose<BR>
the points at the same rate at which they were lost/gained. This rate can be<BR>
doubled through a program of strenuous exercise. Similarly, the rate of loss<BR>
can be slowed through a program of strenuous exercise, increasing the time<BR>
between loss of points to four weeks from two.<BR>
<BR>
This is not intended to mirror reality, but rather to be an easy guide for<BR>
use in a game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:25:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
I think your cost for Tech Level shift is rather high. For 3 points you<BR>
should gain full access to a different TL. As for -3 for lowering TL, that<BR>
is rather high as well considering that if you took a Phy Limit as an<BR>
anachronism from medieval to modern times you should get around 10 or 15<BR>
pts. according to most Hero sourcebooks. A 6 TL difference your way is<BR>
effectively total collapse and is worth 18 points.<BR>
<BR>
TAS membership was a high passage every two months in CT.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:21:00 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>on 7/11/00 11:53 PM, Bill at beast@aracnet.com wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I remember that there was a thread that mentioned memwipe....What<BR>
> > about drugs to recover lost memories. I seem to remember you doing<BR>
> > something similar to this to Nicolai at one time Tod.<BR>
><BR>
>Depends on how the memories are lost.  MemWipe destroys memory sites, but<BR>
>only effect short term memories.  You are probably referring to recalling<BR>
>long term suppressed memories (Nicolai?).  As gamed, there are various<BR>
>techniques for both suppressing and recovering those.<BR>
<BR>
That is what it was...<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Could there be a counter agent to memwipe?<BR>
><BR>
>Possibly another drug taken before or immediately after MemWipe is taken.<BR>
>Of course, now there is the dreaded drug interaction problem.<BR>
><BR>
>Note:  Thanks to the list members, there is now 2 forms of MemWipe,<BR>
>'standard', which leaves fairly easy to detect metabolites or tracers in the<BR>
>users blood.  This is the most common forms.  People in high security<BR>
>positions can take this in the event of immenint capture.  Anyone well be<BR>
>able to detect the drug and realized interrogation about recent events will<BR>
>be pointless.<BR>
><BR>
>There is also a stealthy version which leaves no trace in the users<BR>
>bloodstream.  I'll be updating my med rules to reflect this.<BR>
<BR>
Oh great... Thank guys ;)<BR>
<BR>
Bill "One of Tod's victims" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:19:31 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Re : Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
On 12 Jul 00, at 13:45, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Mercury fulminate. That's the stuff that used to go in<BR>
> > percussion caps and<BR>
> > > primers, isn't it?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > It is indeed. Throughly unstable and tends to corrode barrels, but if<BR>
> > you have to make your own primers it's the thing to use.<BR>
> <BR>
> A little on the touchy side, and not really good for the bore.  Lead<BR>
> Styphinate isn't to much harder. Bear in mind, though, that all these<BR>
> compounds frequently blow up experts.  The CCI ammo plant in Lewiston<BR>
> Idaho has a  'blow out' roof<BR>
<BR>
When I look back on my early high school years, sometimes I wonder how <BR>
I got to 16.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:50:51 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Fw: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Trin/Trin's Veil<BR>
><BR>
> STELLER DATA<BR>
> (listed as an M0 V but that is impossible, upgraded<BR>
to<BR>
> a K0 instead)<BR>
><BR>
> Old Population I star - 7 billion years old.<BR>
><BR>
> Distance Diameter  Density Mass Gravity Orbital<BR>
Period<BR>
> (AU) Name  (miles)  g/cc (earths)    (Gs)    (E-days)<BR>
> Class<BR>
> 0.16 Scorcher  3,386  4.4 0.06    0.34      26.3<BR>
> Rockball<BR>
> 0.46 (*name)  8,201  4.7 0.94    0.88    127.43<BR>
> Greenhouse<BR>
> 0.76 Trin  8,216  4.9 0.99    0.92    270.26  Ocean<BR>
> 1.36 (*name)  7,129  4.93 0.63    0.8    646.38<BR>
> Hostile (N)<BR>
> 2.56 (*name)  5,433  4.4 0.26    0.55  1,668.44<BR>
Hostile<BR>
> (N)<BR>
> 4.96 Orslei  70,814  0.75 96.85    1.21  4,498.32 Gas<BR>
> Giant<BR>
> 9.76 (*none)  65,886  0.76 79.04    1.15 12,414.75<BR>
Gas<BR>
> Giant<BR>
> 19.36 (*none)  26,696  1.5 10.38    0.92 34,680.7<BR>
Gas<BR>
> Giant<BR>
><BR>
> Mainworld - V-894-A83-12<BR>
><BR>
> Also<BR>
> Scorcher<BR>
>  Pop 31,000,000 (7) In UWTN 5<BR>
> Ling Standard Products Spinward (est: 400s)<BR>
>  Pop 12,000 (4) UWTN 3.5<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> TRADE DATA<BR>
><BR>
> UWTN  6.5<BR>
> WTN  6.5<BR>
><BR>
> Trade Classification<BR>
> Hi (High Population)<BR>
> Per Capita Income  15,000 Cr<BR>
> Gross World Product  330,000 Billion Cr<BR>
><BR>
> InfraSystem BTNs<BR>
>  Scorcher:  11.5<BR>
>  LSPS:  10<BR>
><BR>
> Subports<BR>
> 6 Downports on Trin (all operaed by SPA with local<BR>
> subsidy)<BR>
> 1 Subport on Scorcher<BR>
><BR>
> MAINWORLD - PHYSICAL PARAMETERS<BR>
><BR>
> Diameter 8,216.00 miles<BR>
> Density 4.90 g/cc<BR>
> Mass  0.99 earths<BR>
> Gravity 0.92 g<BR>
><BR>
> Distance 0.76 au<BR>
> Orbital Period 270.26 e-days<BR>
> Eccentricity 0.05 degrees<BR>
> Eccentricity: Closest Point 0.72 au<BR>
> Eccentricity: Farthest Point 0.80 au<BR>
> Rotation Period 25.81 hours<BR>
><BR>
> Apparent Brightness of Star 0.73 sols<BR>
> Apparent Size of Star 0.54 degrees<BR>
><BR>
> Axial Tilt 39.30 degrees<BR>
><BR>
> Atmospheric Pressure 1.381229105 atm<BR>
><BR>
> Hydrographic Percentage 41.2%<BR>
> Average Surface Temperature 61.08 degrees<BR>
> Climate Cool<BR>
><BR>
> Population Centres<BR>
> Total population (22 billion)<BR>
><BR>
> 6 PR8 cities<BR>
> Wan Thoroy  902,812,000<BR>
> Son Son Solay 856,931,000<BR>
> Nue Barantis  750,851,000<BR>
> Saakhina  364,509,000 Planetary Capital<BR>
> Gav Pohnan  159,186,000<BR>
> Kota Antara  148,294,000<BR>
><BR>
> Social Parameters<BR>
> Pluralism +1 Moderate<BR>
> Toleration +2 Cordial<BR>
> Solidarity +1 Moderate<BR>
> Tractability +1 Moderate<BR>
> Aggression -2 Pacific<BR>
> Pragmatism +2 Empirical<BR>
> Innovation 0 Moderate<BR>
> Providence -3 Reckless (in marked contrast to<BR>
> government)<BR>
><BR>
> Political Structure<BR>
><BR>
> Dominant Institution<BR>
> Executive Only (Trade Board)<BR>
>  Multiple Councils<BR>
>  Adoptive Succession (House of Arahailli)<BR>
><BR>
> Secondary Institutions<BR>
>  Legislative<BR>
>   Multiple Councils (Companies and Unions)<BR>
>   Appointive Succession (By organisation - varies)<BR>
>  Judicial<BR>
>   Large Council (Court of Arbitration)<BR>
>   No rule of succession (Position by Seniority)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:51:13 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Fw: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - NOTES<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> I have a crude map of the planet. Is it alright to<BR>
post<BR>
> to the mailing list or should I wait until I have a<BR>
> site<BR>
> up and running?<BR>
><BR>
> These high tech, high population worlds are something<BR>
> else. No wonder they are the back bone of the<BR>
Imperium<BR>
> just look at the crude numbers for ground forces I<BR>
> generated using the playtest version of Ground<BR>
Forces.<BR>
><BR>
> Armed Forces of Trin<BR>
><BR>
> Base Force Level = 50,000 battalions. - 15% for being<BR>
> pacific = 42,500 Battalions<BR>
><BR>
> regular bats 30,000<BR>
> reserve bats 12,000 (36,000 actual)<BR>
> militia (25%) 5,500,000,000<BR>
><BR>
> Elite Armour   500  (cost 2,000) (2,000)<BR>
> Armour  2,000  (cost 4,000) (6,000)<BR>
> Elite Regular  2,000  (cost 4,000) (10,000)<BR>
> Regular  20,000  (cost 20,000) (30,000)<BR>
> Total   24,500 of which 2,500 are elite (10.42%)<BR>
><BR>
> Elite Armoured Divisions  25<BR>
> Armour Divisions   100<BR>
> Elite Regular Divisions  100<BR>
> Regular Divisions   1,000<BR>
><BR>
> Like India and China just the sheer size of the<BR>
> population<BR>
> confers major advantages in terms of human talent.<BR>
><BR>
> The way it is shaping up at the moment is that the<BR>
> majority of the population<BR>
> is concentrated in and around the 6 great Megacities.<BR>
> Development of the cities<BR>
> has been deliberately directed away from fertile<BR>
> regions of the equator. and into<BR>
> the deserts.<BR>
><BR>
> The low Control rating (law level) is an average. Out<BR>
> in the desert only a fool walks around<BR>
> without a fire arm, in the major urban areas only a<BR>
> fool walks around with a firearm. Firearms<BR>
> and densely packed urban areas which also serve (due<BR>
to<BR>
> the dust tainted atmosphere and extreme<BR>
> climatic conditions) a life support function.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm trying to avoid toomuch homogenity in the cities<BR>
by<BR>
> giving them local customs, culture and<BR>
> ethnic groups.<BR>
><BR>
> The main non-Trin ethnic group is composed of<BR>
> Hazelites. There is a very large Hazelite<BR>
> community based in Son Son Solay. I'm planning to<BR>
base<BR>
> it on an amalgam of Russian,<BR>
> Cuban and Haitian groups in the US. (With a little<BR>
bit<BR>
> of Yardie thrown in for good measure).<BR>
><BR>
> More detailed and less crude information will arrive<BR>
> soon.<BR>
><BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:51:49 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Battledress and RE: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
No, but I may "have" to by mid-August.  I just got the cover contract for<BR>
"Ground Forces".  I'd really wanted to get the armor done by the internal<BR>
artwork deadline.  Now the cover got opened up to me from the previous<BR>
artist.  At a minimum I'll have fully articulated 3D battledress built by<BR>
then for the multiple characters that will be on the cover.  I'd REALLY like<BR>
to get the prop battldress done though, as that'd be the most realistic<BR>
rendition.<BR>
<BR>
One issue I've had with every canon BD illo to date, with the possible<BR>
exception of the shot on G:T pg14 (if that's supposed to be BD that is),<BR>
that the poor trooper in the 'can wouldn't be able to move their legs at the<BR>
hip that much.  If I get to create canon illos of BD, I can fix that :)<BR>
<BR>
Back to studying every BD shot I have.<BR>
<BR>
Later,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Frank G.<BR>
> Pitt<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 1:29 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry wrote :<BR>
> > At 11:06 PM 7/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
> > > Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did<BR>
> tell<BR>
> > > you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a<BR>
> > > calculator and pen and paper, right ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller<BR>
> for her 10th<BR>
> > birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
> > pictures.<BR>
><BR>
> Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of battle-dress he was<BR>
> talking about building ?<BR>
> <grin><BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:52:51 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
See the comment I just sent Doug :)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:28 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 08:29 PM 7/12/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of <BR>
> battle-dress he was<BR>
> >talking about building ?<BR>
> <BR>
> Ha!  In a race between that suit and the heat death of the universe, take<BR>
> the end of everything.<BR>
> <BR>
> We've found a set of overalls similar to the one Jesse daraws, and we're<BR>
> making the "I (heart) H. E." patch.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:07:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/12/00 6:50 PM, bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> 6 PR8 cities<BR>
>> Wan Thoroy  902,812,000<BR>
>> Son Son Solay 856,931,000<BR>
>> Nue Barantis  750,851,000<BR>
>> Saakhina  364,509,000 Planetary Capital<BR>
>> Gav Pohnan  159,186,000<BR>
>> Kota Antara  148,294,000<BR>
<BR>
I love the sound of these names, especially Son Son Solay. Are you using a<BR>
word generator, your imagination, or what?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:08:59 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
We imported my wife's brother (from Sierre Leone) last<BR>
year and<BR>
the man can fix anything.<BR>
<BR>
He took one look at our flat's wiring and rewired it.<BR>
No formal training<BR>
he's made his living fixing cars back home.<BR>
<BR>
He's the kind of guy that can put up shelves freehand,<BR>
no spirit level,<BR>
no drawing on the walls just out with the drill and<BR>
bzzzt, bzzzt - done.<BR>
<BR>
I never realised what the expression 'naturally good<BR>
with his hands'<BR>
really meant until I saw him do it.<BR>
<BR>
This has absolutely no relevence to the topic does it.<BR>
<BR>
Bugger.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>;<BR>
<traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 10:34 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Moin Anthony Jackson,<BR>
><BR>
> > >   I can also imagine a more precise survey data,<BR>
dividing Tl in sections,<BR>
> > >   but Tl does does !NOT! mean science and<BR>
knowledge, but application. So<BR>
> > >   only Tl:8 production, would qualify for Tl:8 as<BR>
a code.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Actually, that's vague for various reasons.<BR>
Basically, while its<BR>
> > reasonably clear that it is in theory possible for<BR>
someone from a<BR>
> > TL-8 world to learn TL-15 sciences, in practice he<BR>
probably needs to<BR>
> > go to a university on a TL-15 world to actually do<BR>
so (at least, in<BR>
> > any significant detail).  To consider an analogous<BR>
case, someone from<BR>
> > sub-saharan africa isn't prevented from learning<BR>
modern sciences, but<BR>
> > will probably go to the united states or europe to<BR>
actually learn them.<BR>
><BR>
>   For this reason, production qualifies for<BR>
techlevel. If the planet is<BR>
>   known to produce TL:7 car's, it'll get a Tl:7<BR>
classification. If its<BR>
>   known to have Tl:8 agra production, its classified<BR>
as Tl:8.<BR>
><BR>
>   Put those educated people back in their bush, and<BR>
they'll be back to<BR>
>   the productive techlevel of their country,<BR>
regardless of how many books<BR>
>   and diplomas they have. The thing is even worse, if<BR>
you think about<BR>
>   sustaining techlevel. A handy formular constrains,<BR>
imtu, the peak<BR>
>   techlevel of an economy to the poplevel it can<BR>
support with infrastructure<BR>
>   for free available trade and travell.<BR>
><BR>
> Bye Michael<BR>
> --<BR>
>   mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.?<BR>
'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
>   http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM<BR>
CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2755<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2756</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 13 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2756<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - NOTES<BR>
Re: Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
Low gravity effects<BR>
Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
RE: Low gravity effects<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Tech Levels (was Re: High Tech Planets)<BR>
Re:  What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:11:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - NOTES<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/12/00 6:51 PM, bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> I have a crude map of the planet. Is it alright to<BR>
> post<BR>
>> to the mailing list or should I wait until I have a<BR>
>> site<BR>
>> up and running?<BR>
<BR>
I think attaching files screws up the digest or something. Send it to me at<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com and I'll post it, do it within an hour or so and I'll put<BR>
it up immediately, otherwise my roomie may get back and he'll want<BR>
web-access.<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:39:35 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
<BR>
I posted that story to the Gamma world list and noone cared..I thought it<BR>
was hilarious myself.  :)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Charles Collin" <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
To: "Traveller Mailing List" <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 3:15 PM<BR>
Subject: Battledress: We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> An interesting story fromthe BBC, gasoline-powered "jumper boots" that<BR>
> allow running speeds of over 40 kph.<BR>
><BR>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_820000/820398.stm<BR>
><BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:33:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Low gravity effects<BR>
<BR>
Have any studies been done with organisms under low gravity?  With humans<BR>
I know there hasn't been, just high and micro.  There may have been animal<BR>
studies on the shuttle using centrifuges, but I don't remember.  Anyone<BR>
have any info on this?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:35:18 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
<BR>
Some are drawn from other languages (Indonesian, Thai<BR>
and Bengali I think). Nue Barantis, Son Son Solay and<BR>
Wan Thoroy<BR>
I made up but it has to be said that I was reading alot<BR>
of Jack<BR>
Vance at the time.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 3:07 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: TML LANDGRAB - TRIN - CRUDE DATA<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/12/00 6:50 PM,<BR>
bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk<BR>
> issued forth:<BR>
><BR>
> >> 6 PR8 cities<BR>
> >> Wan Thoroy  902,812,000<BR>
> >> Son Son Solay 856,931,000<BR>
> >> Nue Barantis  750,851,000<BR>
> >> Saakhina  364,509,000 Planetary Capital<BR>
> >> Gav Pohnan  159,186,000<BR>
> >> Kota Antara  148,294,000<BR>
><BR>
> I love the sound of these names, especially Son Son<BR>
Solay. Are you using a<BR>
> word generator, your imagination, or what?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:16:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
<BR>
Well, here is a link to Ben's map of Trin:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Trin.jpg<BR>
<BR>
It is also displayed on my mapping page. I love those mountains, how did you<BR>
do those Ben? What program are you using?<BR>
xrp@sierratel.com <BR>
<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:26:02 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Low gravity effects<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Have any studies been done with organisms under low gravity?  With humans<BR>
> I know there hasn't been, just high and micro.  There may have been animal<BR>
> studies on the shuttle using centrifuges, but I don't remember.  Anyone<BR>
> have any info on this?<BR>
<BR>
Check out the following:<BR>
<BR>
http://microgravity.hq.nasa.gov/<BR>
http://www.microgravity.com/<BR>
http://microgravity.msfc.nasa.gov/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:37:59 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:07:26 -0700<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
>>birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
>>pictures.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>    The REAL LIFE Ditzie, in the immortal words of Sir Robin, "RUN AWAY."<BR>
>    <LL jumps into a Patrol Cruiser & runs away.><BR>
<BR>
To pick a nit here. I think you will find that a close examination of the<BR>
events<BR>
surrounding every utterance of that line in MPATHG that this line was spoken<BR>
by King Arthur, not as you seem to think by the Brave Sir Robin. Arthur is<BR>
in fact<BR>
giving an order to his brave and loyal knights who would no doubt stand and<BR>
die in the face of overwhelming odds if not ordered to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Brave Sir Robin was obviously not the utterer of this inestimably good<BR>
advice for<BR>
two very good reasons: 1st) Brave Sir Robin's own Survival against<BR>
overwhelming odds is enhanced if everybody else stays behind to fight whilst<BR>
he buggers off, and 2nd) Brave Sir Robin would be too busy soiling his armor<BR>
to speak.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:05:25 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Gosh, Doug hasn't known Jesse nearly as long as I and he already takes shots like that.  I guess the only thing Jesse can get completed fast is that stunning deadline completion reputation........  (You realize, Doug, that he will eventually read this, spin in his chair and launch something heavy across the room at me.  See the trouble you get me in.....)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:28 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 08:29 PM 7/12/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of <BR>
> battle-dress he was<BR>
> >talking about building ?<BR>
> <BR>
> Ha!  In a race between that suit and the heat death of the universe, take<BR>
> the end of everything.<BR>
> <BR>
> We've found a set of overalls similar to the one Jesse daraws, and we're<BR>
> making the "I (heart) H. E." patch.<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:06:29 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels (was Re: High Tech Planets)<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor wrote <BR>
<BR>
> Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
> *know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules?  Would, for<BR>
> instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
> visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
> or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
> inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
> something similiar]" ?<BR>
<BR>
Given that TNS News Reports in CT and MT, [1] which are supposedly <BR>
intended for inhabitants of the Imperium, normally start with <BR>
the complete UPP of the planet the story is from I believe that <BR>
inhabitants of the Third Imperium (at least those who are not <BR>
Barbarians) know how to read _all_ the planetary UPP information, <BR>
not just the Tech Level scale. If they were not capable of understanding <BR>
this information than logically it would not be supplied with <BR>
the news articles would it?<BR>
<BR>
Since Reformation Coalition COALINFNET stories and Regency era<BR>
TAS stories also include planetary UP's this logically suggests<BR>
that at least in the Regency and in the Reformation Coalition, the<BR>
ability to understand and interpret Imperial Era planetary UPP's<BR>
either survived the collapse or (in the RC's case) may have been<BR>
introduced earlier. Thus the Hivers are arguably also familiar<BR>
with the Imperium's planetary UPP scale.<BR>
<BR>
(Of course the 'real' reason those UPP's were there was for the<BR>
_players_ to read but I prefer to conclude that they are actually<BR>
present for the _charecters_ to refer to). YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
[1] And in T4 IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU interpreting a UPP is a Simple EDU  task for a typical Imperial.<BR>
I make this task -1 Diff (-1 Diff from Simple is automatic success)<BR>
for characters who have Survey skill, were Scouts, or were Journalists.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:40:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> The "Darrian Empire" would be an interesting place, sandwiched in between<BR>
> the Zhodani Consulate, the Vargr, and the Third Imperium, but powerful<BR>
> enough to make all of them at least a little bit nervous.  A couple of<BR>
> sectors worth of Darrians, securely at Tech Level 15 (with quite a few<BR>
> worlds at Tech Level 16, and a handful nibbling at the edge of Tech Level<BR>
> 17) would be a challenge for anyone.  <BR>
<BR>
Given that the Darrians rose from TL 3 to Tl 16 (and even some<BR>
TL items, such as air rafts) in only a few hundred years why<BR>
would this progress have stopped if not for the Magriz?<BR>
(Unless of course Yaskodray had a hand in it...)<BR>
<BR>
If so Darrian technology might well have advanced well past<BR>
TL 20. The Darrians developed from the Solomani TL 10 to<BR>
TTL 16 between about -1395 and -924, or about 80 years per TL. <BR>
Another 2,000 years of this sort of progress might have given<BR>
them another (2,000/80) 25 tech levels of so which would put<BR>
them at about TL 41 or so. :) Naturally TL 41 should be more <BR>
than sufficient to do just about anything including traveling <BR>
to alternate time lines where the Magriz took place. Hence they <BR>
might be an easy source of ultra high technology interference <BR>
in any Traveller Universe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:56:31 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
<<  THHUUNNKK!!!!!!! >>  < slither...thud ><BR>
<BR>
All better >=D<BR>
<BR>
Confused?  Tim and I are not only old high school friends, but we're now<BR>
roomates as well.  I don't think the Silicon Valley shall EVER recover ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 9:05 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Gosh, Doug hasn't known Jesse nearly as long as I and he already<BR>
> takes shots like that.  I guess the only thing Jesse can get<BR>
> completed fast is that stunning deadline completion<BR>
> reputation........  (You realize, Doug, that he will eventually<BR>
> read this, spin in his chair and launch something heavy across<BR>
> the room at me.  See the trouble you get me in.....)<BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> > Berry<BR>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:28 PM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 08:29 PM 7/12/2000 +1200, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > >Does this mean Jesse has finally completed that set of<BR>
> > battle-dress he was<BR>
> > >talking about building ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ha!  In a race between that suit and the heat death of the<BR>
> universe, take<BR>
> > the end of everything.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > We've found a set of overalls similar to the one Jesse daraws, and we're<BR>
> > making the "I (heart) H. E." patch.<BR>
> > --<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> > http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:30:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/10/00 11:51 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> <BR>
>> Had to punch my own cards to run stuff on the IBM 370 at Gonzaga U.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I own a couple of 5 meg 14" disk packs from that era (aquired a *lot*<BR>
>> later), and I have a 256-byte core plane sitting about 5 feet away.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> On the other hand, I'm only 45.<BR>
><BR>
> Leonard, I went to GU (Class of 84) and took programming classes there when<BR>
> I was at G Prep.  I remember that 370.<BR>
<BR>
I was using it as part of a program for bright high school students<BR>
back in the winter of 71-72. I still have the IBM FORTRAN manual I<BR>
used. <BR>
<BR>
My old TRS-80 Model III using *interpreted* BASIC was almost as fast as<BR>
that 370. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:36:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
>><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
> <snippage><BR>
>>I have 3 model 4Ps, 2 Model 4s, a model II (with 5 drives :-), a Model<BR>
>>16B (or 6000, I forget which, it's buried). A few CoCos, several<BR>
>>MC-10s, a couple of Model 100s, 1 working Model 600, another than I may<BR>
>>be able to get working, and a third that's nothing but "spare parts".<BR>
>>And bunch of peripheral stuff for the above.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Also far too many PC, XT, and AT systems, a number of 386 systems. Some<BR>
>>486s, a couple of pentiums, and an AMD K6-2 300.<BR>
>><BR>
>>There there are the Macs... All but one are "compact Macs".<BR>
>><BR>
>    Bwa-haa-haa!!  I think I can beat that _ALL_.  I found my old SLIDE RULE!!<BR>
> Remember those?  My Granddad the metallurgist/engineer taught me to use it<BR>
> when I was about 12 and I am probably the last person in the US of A to have<BR>
> actually had it with them in a college exam.  (It was O Chem in 1983 and I<BR>
> wanted a backup in case my TI calculator crapped out in the middle of the<BR>
> exam.  I had had a couple of failures before, but never on a test, and I<BR>
> didn't want to give it the chance.)<BR>
<BR>
I've got *three* slide rules (one is a pocket sized circular one). The<BR>
curcular one is handy for comparison shopping. Set the price over the<BR>
amount, and then look at the price of the different sized package, see<BR>
if the figure under it is greater or lesser than the package amount.<BR>
<BR>
I've got *two* abacuses. One "pocket sized", the other *huge*<BR>
accounting abacus.  And I can use them, though I'm not very fast at<BR>
multiplying or dividing. I used to use the big one as memory for my old<BR>
4-function calculator.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I plan to eventually make or have built a "counter". That's flat<BR>
tabletop sort of thing with marked rows or shallow troughs. It's used<BR>
with stones or other small items as a sort of abacus without wires.<BR>
This is where we get the term "counter" for shop counters. It's a nice<BR>
item to spring on players dealing with a low TL shopkeeper.<BR>
<BR>
Me? I'll use it at SCA events.<BR>
<BR>
ps. If anybody has a "normal sized" (ie not pocket sized) circular slide<BR>
rule they'd like to get rid of, I'll gladly take it off their hands.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:53:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
>>>This makes good sense, but would it be better to make it shaped more<BR>
>>>like a capsule?  Harder to move around yourself, but easier for others<BR>
>>>to move and more comfortable for the occupant (who can stretch out).<BR>
>>Possibly.  I based my rescue ball on the NASA version.  Spheres have some<BR>
>>nice pressure properties.  Also, we want to accommodate most if not all<BR>
>>species (for Aslans it's darn claustrophobic, for small races it's<BR>
>>positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
>>why NASA picked spheres?<BR>
><BR>
>         A sphere is very efficient in terms of structural integrity and mass<BR>
>         per volume.  A cylinder should be easily doable with Traveller tech,<BR>
>         and a 2 x 1 m cylinder should accomidate most common Traveller<BR>
>         species at least as well as a 1.5 m sphere.  One other thing that I<BR>
>         would add to the design are some handy loops that can be used as<BR>
>         handles or to attach a safety line.<BR>
<BR>
It occurs to me that a sphere will be more flexible than a cylinder (to<BR>
avoid what the cylinder turn into a fat cigar shape, you need to make<BR>
the sides *very* stiff). And by being so flexible, it'll be possible to<BR>
push off walls if you *have* to move it by yourself (say, a crew member<BR>
caught too far from a suit). And in gravity, you just roll it (try that<BR>
with a cylinder and you'll get dizy as hell)<BR>
<BR>
>>>Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to move in zero-G<BR>
>>>and manipulate air lock controls, etc.?  I think not, just put the<BR>
>>Is this a good idea?  besides, pressure in the ball is going to make it<BR>
>>difficult to use the arm.<BR>
><BR>
>         If it was a sleave-and-glove arrangement, it would require a clever<BR>
>         design to allow relatively easy use.  It could also be a mechanical<BR>
>         arm controlled by a simple lever or two.  Either way, it would add<BR>
>         to expense, mass, and complexity without appreciably increasing<BR>
>         safety (it might even decrease it).<BR>
<BR>
The attachment point is a *prime* candidate for a stress failure.<BR>
<BR>
>>>light.  Perhaps a sack and paper for feces (or just a diaper),<BR>
<BR>
The bag is only useful in gravity, unless you reach up and "break off"<BR>
the fecal material. It won't "drop free" on its own. <BR>
<BR>
>>>a urine bottle,<BR>
<BR>
Again, it gets tricky in free fall. Which may be why there's a mask, so<BR>
you don't have to inhale fine droplets of urine.<BR>
<BR>
And women are going to need *lots* of practice to use a urine bottle in<BR>
zero-gee. <BR>
<BR>
I expect that the urine container will have a soft, flexible cover,<BR>
somewhere between felt and terrycloth. This will be a specially<BR>
engineered "fabric" that wicks liquids in only one direction. Inward.<BR>
So whatever species you are, you hold it up against the opening of the<BR>
urethra (or equivalent) and the liquid goes thru or is absorbed.<BR>
<BR>
I figure such a cloth should be doable soon, if not now. Several of the<BR>
materials used in disposable diapers come close. <BR>
<BR>
Handi wipes will do for dealing with fecal material. And for other<BR>
things. Add a supply of very absorbent "towels" for dabbing up puddles<BR>
(in gravity) or floating globules (in zero g).<BR>
<BR>
>>> a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
>>Pass on the food.  You can go plenty long without it, and why add to the<BR>
>>feces problem.  Maybe a nice electrolyte sip tube with an appetite<BR>
>>suppressant.  Kidneys don't like it if you skip waqter for too long<BR>
><BR>
>         I agree about the feces, but I meant a drink that contains easily<BR>
>         digested and absorbed food and produces no feces.  Think souped<BR>
>         up Gatorade.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, more like liquid jello. I've worked in a nursing home kitchen<BR>
and we had people on liquid, low residue diets. Basicly liquid jello<BR>
(protiens and sugar), and boullion (supplies salts, but also gives some<BR>
*variety* in tastes). <BR>
<BR>
BTW, it may be an acquired taste, but sucking on a boullion cube isn't<BR>
half bad. <BR>
<BR>
So I'd be tempted to have a liquid sweet with protien, and "cubes" or<BR>
"paste" of something "meaty" (but with no fiber!). And both would<BR>
probably be formulated so that while they taste ok, you won't *want* to<BR>
eat much of them (this is doable with simple making them very sweet or<BR>
salty tasting, and probably in other ways).<BR>
<BR>
>>>inside.  Fast drug could be handy.  An automatic radio beacon should<BR>
>>>be included and perhaps three flashing lights.  Occupants would be<BR>
>>aluminize the exterior for max radar signature as well.<BR>
<BR>
Don't aluminize the whole thing. Instead have a collapsible<BR>
radar corner that either automatically deploys or one that the user can<BR>
deploy. You'll get a *much* better radar return that way. A radar<BR>
corner 18 inches (half a meter) across gives a radar return the size of<BR>
a 100 foot ship or plane! Maybe bigger. And with *no* power<BR>
consumption. <BR>
<BR>
You either want the ball to be white (reduces heat loss and absorption)<BR>
or some violent "rescue" color (yellow, red, orange, green, blue). If you go<BR>
for colors, I'd have each of the "gores" that make up the surface a<BR>
different color. Say red, yellow, orange and green, placed so that no<BR>
adjacent gores are the same color. That way, it'll stand out against<BR>
*any* background. <BR>
<BR>
>>Maybe an<BR>
>>LC display of calming images ('Don't Panic').. Maybe environmental scenes<BR>
>>and music to go with traq being pumped in.  Add a subliminal message under<BR>
>>the music ("everything is ok...there's nothing to be worried about...dum<BR>
>>deedee dum dumm")<BR>
><BR>
>        I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still,<BR>
>         it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts?<BR>
>         Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least<BR>
>         check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions?<BR>
<BR>
A "crystal" receiver can pick up signals well enough and use *no*<BR>
power. Especially, if you run wires along the "seams" of the ball to<BR>
act as an antenna. Include several, each with it's own set of earplugs.<BR>
They cost next to nothing, and are hard to break. And with multiple<BR>
sets, it'd take a lot to disable *all* of them.<BR>
<BR>
A transmitter is more problematic. I'd include one, as an emergency<BR>
beacon (rather like the beacons clmbers and planes carry). But I<BR>
wouldn't include instructions on how to make it send your voice, rather<BR>
than the automatic signal. If the rescuers want to talk to you, they<BR>
can tell you how to enable the mike. I *would* include a "press to<BR>
activate" button, clearly marked. That would help distinguish occupied<BR>
balls from ones that were either empty or had dead/incapacitated<BR>
occupants. <BR>
<BR>
I think the order of retrieval would be something like this:<BR>
<BR>
1. balls without the activate button pushed (because if there *is*<BR>
   someone in there, they are in the worst shape)<BR>
2. balls with the activate button pushed, but that don't respond to the<BR>
   instructions to enable the mike.<BR>
3. balls that respond, in order of seriousness of situation.<BR>
<BR>
Another though might be to have the mike remotely activated. But that<BR>
*does* make the transmitter more complicated.<BR>
<BR>
I favor not having the transmitter under the control of an untrained<BR>
person because they are apt to run down the batteries buy making too<BR>
many calls when no one is in range, or worse yet, leave the mike keyed<BR>
and drain them completely long before the air runs out.<BR>
<BR>
But an automatic beacon can send out a "coded" signal burst every so<BR>
often and use very little power in the process. The coded distress<BR>
signal could include some embedded telemetry data such as interior<BR>
temp, pressure, and O2 level. That'd be enough to decide that a ball<BR>
wasn't wasn't going to have survivors.<BR>
<BR>
>>Perhaps shoot in fast drug after a certain period of time, or when a certain<BR>
>>percentage of air supply is exceeded.  at least if there is no immediate<BR>
>>rescue, you'll be in a nice drug induced coma, listening to happy muzak when<BR>
>>the O2 gives out.<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
><BR>
>      There might also be controls on the outside, so that crew in vacc suits<BR>
>         can adjust things.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think *any* drugs should be automatically supplied. Too much<BR>
chance of killing someone. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:36:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
>> I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still, <BR>
>> it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts? <BR>
>> Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least <BR>
>> check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions? <BR>
><BR>
> I think the short-range radio would be almost a necessity, and they're<BR>
> almost throwaway cheap at higher TL's.  <BR>
<BR>
The question is how much power it needs and how long a cheap *small*<BR>
battery with a *long* shelf life can supply it. See my other post for<BR>
some ideas on how to minimize power and still do a good job.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:43:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> You don't understand. High pressure oxygen plus organic material <BR>
>> equals explosion. High pressure *air* is somewhat more forgiving, but <BR>
>> the fact is that under those conditions stuff *will* react much faster. <BR>
>> As in the difference between "smolders if heated" and "explodes". <BR>
><BR>
> How much organic materal is needed?  Would, say, a mud slough be<BR>
> more dangerous than a sand dune?  <BR>
<BR>
Sand dune would have virtually no danger. And couldn't "seal" anyway. <BR>
<BR>
The mud might be a problem, depending on how wet it was (and the extent<BR>
to which the pressur had "squeezed out" the water.<BR>
<BR>
Worst of all would be a nearly dry beat bog or the like.<BR>
<BR>
> How much pressure are we talking about to break the seal that has the<BR>
> grav vehicle stuck? <BR>
<BR>
You need a pressure equal to that exerted by the vehicle merely to keep<BR>
the dirt or whatever from going *up* the vent (as opposed the air<BR>
coming out). And even with the higher pressure, the air and dirt are<BR>
going to try mixing as the air "cuts" into it.<BR>
<BR>
> Is it sufficient to be a danger, both in quantity compressed and in<BR>
> duration of the effect?  Will it be enough to bother a Grav Tank, or<BR>
> will it simply make it easier for the Grav Tank to free itself?<BR>
<BR>
I'm not certian. What I'd be a bit more worried about is organic<BR>
material that gets displaced into the "pipe" and then gets hit be the<BR>
pressure front of the air the *next* time you use it. That *would* be<BR>
likely to go "boom". That pipe needs to be *heavily* armored.<BR>
<BR>
> Does it matter that the organic material is mainly in solid and liquid<BR>
> form, rather than in any kind of aerosol mixture?<BR>
<BR>
It *will* be aerosol when that high pressure air hits it. <BR>
<BR>
> Lack of valid experience, I suppose - I've never heard of pressurized<BR>
> air introduced to soil causing explosions.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know of that sort of pressure ever being introduced to sil.<BR>
Especially not in the sort of setup we are talking about.<BR>
<BR>
I *do* know of explosions caused by organic contaminants in high<BR>
pressure air or oxygen lines. <BR>
<BR>
>>> All you should need to do is foam the mud up a bit. <BR>
>><BR>
>> Who said it was *mud*? Ordinary soil will flow under that sort of <BR>
>> pressure. And pack down into something that won't foam worth a damn. <BR>
><BR>
> Would "ordinary" soil flow enough to provide a suction seal?<BR>
<BR>
I'd say it could.<BR>
<BR>
> How about sand?<BR>
<BR>
Not unless it was wet.<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard, you've put this image in my head of a Grav Tank coming in<BR>
> for a landing on a flat prairie and almost immediately sinking out<BR>
> of sight. Well, that's one way to hide 'em for the Phoenix <BR>
> Project. <G><BR>
<BR>
Depends on the load bearing properties of the soil, and the ground<BR>
pressure the tank exerts. <BR>
<BR>
The "spherical" type some folks seem to advocate would exert a *lot* of<BR>
pressure at first. And at the armor levels folks are talking about,<BR>
it'd sink pretty deep. <BR>
<BR>
Another fun thing to consider is what happens if that flat ground<BR>
covers some very much *not* flat rocks underneath. You could wind up<BR>
with much of the weight resting on a couple of small outcrops that<BR>
stick above the rest. That's apt to be hard on the hull. <BR>
<BR>
Though, more likely, the rocks will *suddenly* fracture, dropping the<BR>
tank a few feet all at once.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2756<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 13 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2757<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Stranded On The Flats Of The Demand Curve<BR>
Re: Neat Toys<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
Re: Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
RE: Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: RE: Ditzie & BD <BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Trav-Tech Mailing List<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
Re: Holodisplay tank (bridge type)<BR>
Re: Ship Automation (US Navy)<BR>
RE: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
RE: Gravity effects guidelines<BR>
FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:07:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:06 PM 7/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. I did tell<BR>
>>you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a calculator and pen<BR>
>>and paper, right ?<BR>
><BR>
> Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
> birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
> pictures.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, You *are* aware that telling a minor about Ditzie falls under<BR>
"Corrupting the morals of a minor" aren't you? I understand that<BR>
Children's Services (or whatever they call it in CA) gets *real* upset<BR>
about that sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I'd love to see some sweet young girl dressed as<BR>
Ditzie at a Con masquerade. Mostly to see who in the audience<BR>
*flinched* when the MC said "young Ditzie Spofulam"... <eg><BR>
<BR>
Y'know, it occurs to me that "The Adventures of Ditzie" might make an<BR>
interesting comic book. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:15:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Stephen Tempest wrote:<BR>
>> Or are they storing the TL16 equipment they make, ready for when the<BR>
>> Emperor declares that the Navy is ready to move up a tech level?<BR>
><BR>
> Do the fictional people *in* the official "Traveller" universe even<BR>
> *know* about the "Tech Level" scale used in the rules? <BR>
<BR>
Yes, the UPP is part of real librady data.<BR>
<BR>
> Would, for<BR>
> instance, a scout returning from a survey mission say something like "I<BR>
> visited a planet whose inhabitants are have just reached Tech Level 6,"<BR>
> or would he say something more like "I just visited a planet whose<BR>
> inhabitants are entering the Early Atomic Stage of Development [or<BR>
> something similiar]" ?<BR>
<BR>
Given the number of worlds they have info on, I'm sure that even if it<BR>
*wasn't* official, they'd have something similar.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:35:38 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well I can be a curmudgeon for sure and I am 42.  And I love my Traveller.<BR>
> I am so old I still have a copy of En Garde. (The American Version)<BR>
<BR>
I have a copy too. And I bought one as a Christmas gift for a lady<BR>
fencer who was in my D&D campaign back around 1980.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:24:04 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>Elsewhere a European friend was joking that ex-Soviet<BR>
>>nukes are easy tocome by.<BR>
>>Just out of curiousity, what sort of paperwork and<BR>
>>transfer tax would *that* take. :-)<BR>
><BR>
> No I know ever fills out any paperwork nor pays any<BR>
> transfer tax.  You just meet the ship at the quay or in the<BR>
> warehouse with a car and a van.  They load the nukes into<BR>
> the van and you drive off.  They drive off in the car,<BR>
> which is full of money. <BR>
<BR>
Some of us like handing bureaucrats heart attack inducing paperwork. <BR>
<BR>
Among other things, in this case they have to wonder "What is he going<BR>
to do with the nuke if we say *no*?"<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:30:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stranded On The Flats Of The Demand Curve<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav: With the technology being more than well understood and ship<BR>
> costs being totally sunk, the cost of putting stuff in orbit in the<BR>
> OTU is nearly free. It's like bandwidth is getting today - it's<BR>
> not totally free, but per-unit (be it kilos or bits) it sure looks that<BR>
> way. I mean, there must be high-school satellite clubs on some <BR>
> worlds where kids assemble and launch (out the airlock) their own<BR>
> birds. Cool.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, the amatuer rocket community figures that sometime in the not too<BR>
distant future someone will launch their own satellite. Building an<BR>
orbit capable rocket "in the garage" is diffiucult, but not impossible.<BR>
The legal hurdles are a problem. It's *hard* to get permission to<BR>
launch to high altitudes. Or to launch "large" rockets (anything over a<BR>
few pounds).<BR>
<BR>
Just like we have folks flying old biplanes, expect that there will be<BR>
folks flying re-usable chemically powered rockets as a hobby. And<BR>
there will still be folks flying reaction drive ships *commercially* in<BR>
out of the way places. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:36:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Neat Toys<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Why you dont date Ditzie<BR>
>><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>>      Rod Basler, COFIT - (Crochety Old Fart In Training), who just found<BR>
> his<BR>
>>> "Nuclear Device Effects Calculator" again and boy is he happy.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Gee, how come *I* never get any neat toys like that.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>    Get the DoD publication "The Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (I can dig up the<BR>
> publication number if you like when I get home).  It has the calculator in a<BR>
> pocket inside the back cover.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I can likely just drop by the local Government Printing Office<BR>
bookstore and see if they have it in stock. Should be fun, since I know<BR>
the person in charge. Knowing her, *she* wouldn't bat an eye. But some<BR>
of the clerks might.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:40:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2750<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>         For those of you who haven't seen it yet, there is a very good online comic<BR>
> called "Freefall".  The index page is at<BR>
> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm  and I can't recommend it highly<BR>
> enough.<BR>
>         Besides - all jokes aobout the Spofalum progeny's toyboxes aside, the<BR>
> absolute perfect woman has to be Florence Ambrose <sigh>.  Of course, since<BR>
> she is a genetically engineered wolf, <BR>
<BR>
You mean "Vargr" :-)<BR>
<BR>
> and I am an unrepentant furry, you can<BR>
> ignore that opinion if you wish... but she is still a brilliant engineer,<BR>
> and can also kill, clean, and cook her own deer.  Now if only she were not a<BR>
> cartoon  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Is that the one where the birds are hiding something?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:01:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie growing up (was Alien Races 3)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>  Three different SF bits come to mind when thinking of Ditzie in her teens: <BR>
> The resourcefulness of Galactic Girl Guides and what they often grow into <BR>
> (from Starstuck),<BR>
<BR>
Never heard of it.<BR>
<BR>
> the young Super-Sleepless from the second half of Nancy <BR>
> Kress' "Beggars in Spain",<BR>
<BR>
Heard of it, never read it.<BR>
<BR>
> and the line from the movie "Species" ("You made <BR>
> it female because it would be more DOCILE!?!?!").<BR>
<BR>
I agreed *strongly* with the character saying that!<BR>
<BR>
And don't forget The Stainless Steel Rat's wife and daughter. Or<BR>
Lazarus Long's "twin sisters" Lapis Lazuli Long and Lorelei Lee Long<BR>
(aka "Laz & Lor"). What they did to Hazel Stone's grandsons Castor and<BR>
Pollux is quite instructive.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:27:49 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Battledress:  We've got the boots, at least.<BR>
<BR>
> An interesting story fromthe BBC, gasoline-powered "jumper boots" that<BR>
> allow running speeds of over 40 kph.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_820000/820398.stm<BR>
<BR>
There was video of this on our national news a couple of days ago.<BR>
<BR>
Looked about as stable as stilts !  <BR>
<BR>
Frankie <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:35:52 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> >> I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still,<BR>
> >> it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts?<BR>
> >> Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least<BR>
> >> check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I think the short-range radio would be almost a necessity, and they're<BR>
> > almost throwaway cheap at higher TL's.<BR>
<BR>
They are pretty much throwaway now. Even MilStd SAR-BEs are only a few<BR>
hundred dollars.<BR>
<BR>
> The question is how much power it needs and how long a cheap *small*<BR>
> battery with a *long* shelf life can supply it. See my other post for<BR>
> some ideas on how to minimize power and still do a good job.<BR>
<BR>
We have this sort of thing now in the emergency radios and beacons (SAR-BEs)<BR>
military pilots carry in their vests on operational misions. They use NiFe<BR>
(Mickel Iron) batteries which are stored charged and refrigerated when not<BR>
in use.<BR>
<BR>
They provide several hours of SAR beacon operation and a few minutes of<BR>
transmission time, to be used during final pick-up or for any emergency<BR>
transmission.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:05:31 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, I'd love to see some sweet young girl dressed as<BR>
> Ditzie at a Con masquerade. Mostly to see who in the audience<BR>
> *flinched* when the MC said "young Ditzie Spofulam"... <eg><BR>
<BR>
Flinch? Dive for hard cover is more likely.....<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Y'know, it occurs to me that "The Adventures of Ditzie" might make an<BR>
> interesting comic book. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Hummm....<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:00:36 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
From: DaveShayne <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>>>Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller for her 10th<BR>
>>>birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
>>>pictures.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>>    The REAL LIFE Ditzie, in the immortal words of Sir Robin, "RUN AWAY."<BR>
>>    <LL jumps into a Patrol Cruiser & runs away.><BR>
><BR>
>To pick a nit here. I think you will find that a close examination of the<BR>
>events<BR>
>surrounding every utterance of that line in MPATHG that this line was<BR>
spoken<BR>
>by King Arthur, not as you seem to think by the Brave Sir Robin. Arthur is<BR>
>in fact<BR>
>giving an order to his brave and loyal knights who would no doubt stand and<BR>
>die in the face of overwhelming odds if not ordered to save themselves.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    OK, but its doesn't matter who says it, just RUN AWAY.  Doug has had a<BR>
Ditzie clone & he is not afraid to use it.<BR>
<BR>
>Brave Sir Robin was obviously not the utterer of this inestimably good<BR>
>advice for<BR>
>two very good reasons: 1st) Brave Sir Robin's own Survival against<BR>
>overwhelming odds is enhanced if everybody else stays behind to fight<BR>
whilst<BR>
>he buggers off, and 2nd) Brave Sir Robin would be too busy soiling his<BR>
armor<BR>
>to speak.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Who cares, Doug "Penguin Boy" Berry has a Ditzie clone & he is not<BR>
afraid to use it.  In other words, we can argue these points, once we are<BR>
safe, in another galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 03:53:11 EDT<BR>
From: RBasler1@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD <BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/12/00 10:25:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
 Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD >><BR>
<BR>
    Ummmm....guys?  Is everyone but me blissfully unaware of what B&D means?  <BR>
That and Ditzie do NOT go together....  :)<BR>
<BR>
    Rod Basler, finally signing onto the list from home<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - I'm at home, not work!  Go ahead, blame AOhell for my nutty <BR>
opinions!  It's like talking to a wall!  (just kidding..I've been waiting <BR>
weeks to say that)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 04:00:03 EDT<BR>
From: RBasler1@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/12/00 10:25:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
 Subject: Re:  What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
 <BR>
  Given that the Darrians rose from TL 3 to Tl 16 (and even some<BR>
 TL items, such as air rafts) in only a few hundred years why<BR>
 would this progress have stopped if not for the Magriz?<BR>
 (Unless of course Yaskodray had a hand in it...)<BR>
 <BR>
 If so Darrian technology might well have advanced well past<BR>
 TL 20. The Darrians developed from the Solomani TL 10 to<BR>
 TTL 16 between about -1395 and -924, or about 80 years per TL. <BR>
 Another 2,000 years of this sort of progress might have given<BR>
 them another (2,000/80) 25 tech levels of so which would put<BR>
 them at about TL 41 or so. :)<BR>
  >><BR>
    You are assuming a straight-line development.  It would be far more <BR>
likely that it was a sigmoid curve that levels out at the top if tech <BR>
development in the 3I is any indication.  Besides, looking at some of the <BR>
_really_ high tech stuff in GURPS Ultra Tech, some pretty significant <BR>
breakthroughs are required, which could further delay progress.  The <BR>
development curve could then look like it is approaching a horizontal <BR>
asymptote.<BR>
<BR>
    Rod Basler, COFIT - (you know what is means by now)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:43:38 +1000<BR>
From: "Mark Laiho" <mclaih@yesresources.com><BR>
Subject: Trav-Tech Mailing List<BR>
<BR>
Anyone know if the trav-tech (Gear-head) mailing list is still functioning?<BR>
Has it moved? If it does exist how do I subscribe?<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:50:03 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
<BR>
I used Campaign Cartographer 2.<BR>
<BR>
The mountains are part of the standard filled symbol<BR>
suite.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 4:16 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Well, here is a link to Ben's map of Trin:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Trin.jpg<BR>
><BR>
> It is also displayed on my mapping page. I love those<BR>
mountains, how did you<BR>
> do those Ben? What program are you using?<BR>
> xrp@sierratel.com<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------<BR>
> Hypercleats Links:<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
> BZA's Traveller Pages:<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
> BZA's Mapping Page:<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:00:25 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Holodisplay tank (bridge type)<BR>
<BR>
The US Navy has been working on one of these for sevearl years now. I read<BR>
an article on it in Surface Warfare magazine about 5 years ago.  No idea of<BR>
devlopmental status/success or statistics though.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:33:01 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Automation (US Navy)<BR>
<BR>
This sort of thing did happen, but the Navy has continued to refine the<BR>
systems involved and has deployed several "smart ship" platforms now.  Some<BR>
that come to mind are USS YORKTOWN (the first) and USS RUSHMORE.<BR>
<BR>
There are certainly problems inherent in this technology, but when it is<BR>
working (which is most of the time, the ship's can be taken to sea by a<BR>
handful of people, perhaps only 1 person on the bridge.  The engineering<BR>
plant is controlled by a set of PCs in the Central Control Station.<BR>
<BR>
What is driving this automation is COST.  Specifically life-cycle costs.<BR>
Tha Navy has decided that people are expensive to train and maintain and<BR>
that combat casualties are not-so-goo for support at home.  Minimizing crew<BR>
reduces both sorts of expense and makes the ship cheaper to operate.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 4:18 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Tod Glenn writes:<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
> >Anyone remember the recent demonstration of the US Navy's automated ship<BR>
> >project (powered by windows NT, IIRC)?  A divide by zero error resulted<BR>
in a<BR>
> >helpless ship foundering at sea for several hours.  Oops.<BR>
><BR>
> I'm not sure that something powered by Windows NT would count as<BR>
> "automated."  How about "sabotaged?"  ;)<BR>
><BR>
> Peez<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:59:44 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella [mailto:xrp@sierratel.com]<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 4:17 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: TML Landgrab - Trin - Map Link<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Well, here is a link to Ben's map of Trin:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Trin.jpg<BR>
> <BR>
> It is also displayed on my mapping page. I love those <BR>
> mountains, how did you<BR>
> do those Ben? What program are you using?<BR>
> xrp@sierratel.com <BR>
<BR>
It looks like Campaign Cartographer to me...<BR>
<BR>
Matt <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:10:01 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Gravity effects guidelines<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Characters will lose (or gain, for planet size greater that 8) one point of<BR>
>strength, dexterity, and endurance for each two weeks spent in the<BR>
>low/high-G environment, up to the following limits:<BR>
>Planet Size   Limit<BR>
>A             +2<BR>
>9             +1<BR>
>8             0<BR>
>7             -1<BR>
>6             -2<BR>
>5             -3<BR>
>4             -4<BR>
>3             -5<BR>
>2             -6<BR>
>1             -7<BR>
>0             -8<BR>
>At no time will the abilities be adjusted below 1, or above F.<BR>
>Upon returning to the normal 1 G environment, a character will regain/lose<BR>
>the points at the same rate at which they were lost/gained. This rate can be<BR>
>doubled through a program of strenuous exercise. Similarly, the rate of loss<BR>
>can be slowed through a program of strenuous exercise, increasing the time<BR>
>between loss of points to four weeks from two.<BR>
<BR>
	I like this, though I might suggest two adjustments.  First, in high-G<BR>
	Str and End increase while Dex goes down, in low-G the reverse is true.<BR>
	(I'm not saying that this is true, but it feels right and works for me)<BR>
	Second, not only the rate of change but the ultimate limit could be<BR>
	adjusted by exersize, for example halve the limit (e.g. -4 at size 0).<BR>
<BR>
>This is not intended to mirror reality, but rather to be an easy guide for<BR>
>use in a game.<BR>
<BR>
	Just as it should be, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:11:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/11/00 11:44 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On 11 Jul 00, at 22:50, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> on 7/11/00 10:41 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz<BR>
>> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Equation 31 (Traveller Damage)<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Damage=ROUNDDOWN(SQRT(Effective Muzzle Energy)/10.5)<BR>
> <BR>
>>> Can I also put in a plug for my FFS2 weapon design spreadsheet (excel 5).<BR>
>>> You can find it at BITS.<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to reproduce a gun with TGS201.xls, which is supposed to mimic<BR>
FFS2.  I'm getting weird results, so possibly It's me, but I'd like the<BR>
input from any FFS2 experts.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Weapon:<BR>
<BR>
.458 Win Mage Whitworth express rifle.<BR>
<BR>
Data from gun<BR>
<BR>
Case length     2.5in           63.5mm<BR>
Bullet          .458in          11.6mm<BR>
Bullet wt.      510gn           32.3g<BR>
Muzzle V        2130f/s         651 m/s<BR>
energy          5140 flbs       6844J<BR>
Gun weight      8.5lbs          3.86kg<BR>
<BR>
Bolt action repeater with a 3 round internal magazine. Built at TL 5.<BR>
<BR>
I input this data in Traveller Gunsmith, which supposedly mimics FFS2.  I<BR>
get the following output:<BR>
<BR>
Name:               .458 Win Mag<BR>
Calibre:            11.6 x 63mm<BR>
ROF:                Single Shot<BR>
TL:         5       Laser Sight:    No<BR>
Damage:     8       Sound Report:   Normal<BR>
Mag         3       Flash:          Normal<BR>
Rcl-SS:     4       Grenade Adaptor:No<BR>
Rcl-Burst:  N/A     Bayonet:        No<BR>
Range:      Medium  Bipod:          No<BR>
Mass:       18 Kg   Tripod:         No<BR>
Reloads:    0.16 Kg<BR>
Length:     180.8 cm<BR>
Cost:       Cr 1029<BR>
<BR>
Note the discrepency: 3.86 kg vs. an actual mass of 3.86kg. Am I missing<BR>
something? An propellant volume is way off in FFS2.  I note that FFS2<BR>
indicates a case volume of 8555mm3, for a minimum case length of 202mm!<BR>
<BR>
What gives?  Has anyone run a large number of actual weapons through FFS2 to<BR>
see what the correlation is like.  All my experience so far seems to be that<BR>
FFS2 is badly out of step with reality.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
Tod                <BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:16:51 +0100<BR>
From: Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
>> Y'know, it occurs to me that "The Adventures of Ditzie" might make an<BR>
>> interesting comic book. :-)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is all very interesting, but who the h*** is Ditzie??!?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:30:40 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I think the short-range radio would be almost a necessity, and they're<BR>
> > almost throwaway cheap at higher TL's.  <BR>
> <BR>
> The question is how much power it needs and how long a cheap *small*<BR>
> battery with a *long* shelf life can supply it. See my other post for<BR>
> some ideas on how to minimize power and still do a good job.<BR>
<BR>
Why batteries? Use a wind-up one. Infinite shelf life, and the current<BR>
ones get some 30 minutes of playtime out of a single winding. Granted<BR>
those are recievers not trancievers, but that's a matter of construction.<BR>
<BR>
While they're not throwaway's per se, they are cheap enough to construct<BR>
that selling them for $50 to wealthy North Americans subsidized a huge<BR>
number of free ones given to poor Africans.<BR>
<BR>
Here's one link:<BR>
<BR>
http://innovativetechnologies.ca/radio_s.htm<BR>
<BR>
What they're missing is a wind-up power supply. Just give me a wind-up<BR>
gizmo with a car lighter socket in it...there's a LOT I could power with<BR>
it. I'd pay $50 in a heartbeat to have something I could plug a laptop<BR>
into that would give me endless power, with 30 seconds of effort every<BR>
half-hour or so. Almost worth disassembling one of the radios.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2757<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 13 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2758<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Boarding<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
Re: Ship Automation (US Navy)<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re:  What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
RE: Ditzie<BR>
RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
RE: Ditzie<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin <BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:31:49 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Boarding<BR>
<BR>
In message <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAKEDGEMAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>, "Frank<BR>
G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes<BR>
>I used to go for days without shitting when tramping through the bush,<BR>
>because I preferred using a real toilet. There are many people who do this<BR>
>without wanting to as well. _Days_ are not a problem. _Weeks_ are.<BR>
<BR>
There is a quote, possibly attributed to Lord Cardigan during the<BR>
Crimean campaign: "Never miss an opportunity to go to the toilet".<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:36:42 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>positively roomy.  Cylinders will probably be easier to sew.  Anyone know<BR>
>>>why NASA picked spheres?<BR>
>>A sphere is very efficient in terms of structural integrity and mass<BR>
>>per volume.  A cylinder should be easily doable with Traveller tech,<BR>
>>and a 2 x 1 m cylinder should accomidate most common Traveller<BR>
>>species at least as well as a 1.5 m sphere.  One other thing that I<BR>
>>would add to the design are some handy loops that can be used as<BR>
>>handles or to attach a safety line.<BR>
>It occurs to me that a sphere will be more flexible than a cylinder (to<BR>
>avoid what the cylinder turn into a fat cigar shape, you need to make<BR>
>the sides *very* stiff). And by being so flexible, it'll be possible to<BR>
>push off walls if you *have* to move it by yourself (say, a crew member<BR>
>caught too far from a suit). And in gravity, you just roll it (try that<BR>
>with a cylinder and you'll get dizy as hell)<BR>
<BR>
	I'm not certain that that is true, but in any event the whole idea<BR>
	of my life pod is to keep ignorant dirt-siders from getting<BR>
	themselves into trouble, and leaving their safety in the hands of<BR>
	trained professionals (for good or ill).<BR>
<BR>
>>>>Would it be worth adding an "arm" or two on the side to move in zero-G<BR>
>>If it was a sleave-and-glove arrangement, it would require a clever<BR>
>>design to allow relatively easy use.  It could also be a mechanical<BR>
>>arm controlled by a simple lever or two.  Either way, it would add<BR>
>>to expense, mass, and complexity without appreciably increasing<BR>
>>safety (it might even decrease it).<BR>
>The attachment point is a *prime* candidate for a stress failure.<BR>
<BR>
	Of course, but this could be compensated for to a large extent.<BR>
	In any event, I don't think that anyone is advocating any kind<BR>
	of arm on these things.<BR>
<BR>
>>>>light.  Perhaps a sack and paper for feces (or just a diaper),<BR>
>The bag is only useful in gravity, unless you reach up and "break off"<BR>
>the fecal material. It won't "drop free" on its own. <BR>
<BR>
	I am aware of the zero-G problem.  In the absence of a zero-G<BR>
	toilet you will have to try something.  "Breaking off" your feces<BR>
	may be better than nothing (just hope that you don't have diarhea).<BR>
<BR>
>>>>a urine bottle,<BR>
>Again, it gets tricky in free fall. Which may be why there's a mask, so<BR>
>you don't have to inhale fine droplets of urine.<BR>
<BR>
	Yup.<BR>
<BR>
>And women are going to need *lots* of practice to use a urine bottle in<BR>
>zero-gee. <BR>
<BR>
	"Sorry ma'am, your just going to have to figure it out for yourself<BR>
	because we are not going to have pressure for at least another 4<BR>
	hours."<BR>
<BR>
>I expect that the urine container will have a soft, flexible cover,<BR>
>somewhere between felt and terrycloth. This will be a specially<BR>
>engineered "fabric" that wicks liquids in only one direction. Inward.<BR>
>So whatever species you are, you hold it up against the opening of the<BR>
>urethra (or equivalent) and the liquid goes thru or is absorbed.<BR>
<BR>
	I was thinking more of a container with a soft, flexible opening<BR>
	that could be opened while against the body.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>Handi wipes will do for dealing with fecal material. And for other<BR>
>things. Add a supply of very absorbent "towels" for dabbing up puddles<BR>
>(in gravity) or floating globules (in zero g).<BR>
<BR>
	The towelettes could be handy.  Scented, perhaps.<BR>
<BR>
>>>> a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
>>>Pass on the food.  You can go plenty long without it, and why add to the<BR>
>>>feces problem.  Maybe a nice electrolyte sip tube with an appetite<BR>
>>I agree about the feces, but I meant a drink that contains easily<BR>
>>digested and absorbed food and produces no feces.  Think souped<BR>
>>up Gatorade.<BR>
>Actually, more like liquid jello. I've worked in a nursing home kitchen<BR>
>and we had people on liquid, low residue diets. Basicly liquid jello<BR>
>(protiens and sugar), and boullion (supplies salts, but also gives some<BR>
>*variety* in tastes). <BR>
<BR>
	Anyone who has had a colonoscopy knows all about eating to<BR>
	avoid fecal stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>BTW, it may be an acquired taste, but sucking on a boullion cube isn't<BR>
>half bad. <BR>
<BR>
	Not too salty for you?<BR>
<BR>
>So I'd be tempted to have a liquid sweet with protien, and "cubes" or<BR>
>"paste" of something "meaty" (but with no fiber!). And both would<BR>
>probably be formulated so that while they taste ok, you won't *want* to<BR>
>eat much of them (this is doable with simple making them very sweet or<BR>
>salty tasting, and probably in other ways).<BR>
<BR>
	I'd be worried less about someone feeling satisfied.  Sure, they<BR>
	may suck it all down right away, but there is only so much that<BR>
	you can do.  I would suggest perhaps 1 L of clear liquid food,<BR>
	mainly to avoid immediate problems with dehydration.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>You either want the ball to be white (reduces heat loss and absorption)<BR>
>or some violent "rescue" color (yellow, red, orange, green, blue). If you go<BR>
>for colors, I'd have each of the "gores" that make up the surface a<BR>
>different color. Say red, yellow, orange and green, placed so that no<BR>
>adjacent gores are the same color. That way, it'll stand out against<BR>
>*any* background. <BR>
<BR>
	I don't know how often the colour is going to be terribly helpful.<BR>
	White or highly reflective would seem to be the best choices.<BR>
<BR>
>>I was wondering about this, but I tried to minimize cost/mass.  Still,<BR>
>>it would not add much.  Is the same music soothing to most sophonts?<BR>
>>Is it worth including a short range radio to converse or at least<BR>
>>check on sophonts and reasure them/give them instructions?<BR>
>A "crystal" receiver can pick up signals well enough and use *no*<BR>
>power. Especially, if you run wires along the "seams" of the ball to<BR>
>act as an antenna. Include several, each with it's own set of earplugs.<BR>
>They cost next to nothing, and are hard to break. And with multiple<BR>
>sets, it'd take a lot to disable *all* of them.<BR>
<BR>
	This would be an excellent approach.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>I think the order of retrieval would be something like this:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	Eminantly reasonable, but I was assuming that these would only be<BR>
	used when closely monitored by vacc suited personel.  Thus, the<BR>
	pods would all contain sophonts and would be closely monitored.<BR>
	(in theory, at least)<BR>
<BR>
>I favor not having the transmitter under the control of an untrained<BR>
>person because they are apt to run down the batteries buy making too<BR>
>many calls when no one is in range, or worse yet, leave the mike keyed<BR>
>and drain them completely long before the air runs out.<BR>
<BR>
	Agreed.<BR>
<BR>
>But an automatic beacon can send out a "coded" signal burst every so<BR>
>often and use very little power in the process. The coded distress<BR>
>signal could include some embedded telemetry data such as interior<BR>
>temp, pressure, and O2 level. That'd be enough to decide that a ball<BR>
>wasn't wasn't going to have survivors.<BR>
<BR>
	This should be doable.<BR>
<BR>
>>>Perhaps shoot in fast drug after a certain period of time, or when a<BR>
certain<BR>
>>There might also be controls on the outside, so that crew in vacc suits<BR>
>>can adjust things.<BR>
>I don't think *any* drugs should be automatically supplied. Too much<BR>
>chance of killing someone. <BR>
<BR>
	Probably true, depending on your rules for drug use.  I certainly favour<BR>
	human intervention.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:45:23 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Automation (US Navy)<BR>
<BR>
Dan Lane writes:<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>There are certainly problems inherent in this technology, but when it is<BR>
>working (which is most of the time, the ship's can be taken to sea by a<BR>
>handful of people, perhaps only 1 person on the bridge.  The engineering<BR>
>plant is controlled by a set of PCs in the Central Control Station.<BR>
>What is driving this automation is COST.  Specifically life-cycle costs.<BR>
>Tha Navy has decided that people are expensive to train and maintain and<BR>
>that combat casualties are not-so-goo for support at home.  Minimizing crew<BR>
>reduces both sorts of expense and makes the ship cheaper to operate.<BR>
<BR>
	I have no doubt that starships with Traveller-level technology would<BR>
	be almost completely automated.  However, I like having sophont crews<BR>
	running around operating and repairing ships IMTU.<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:40:50 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
> I'm not certian. What I'd be a bit more worried about is organic <BR>
> material that gets displaced into the "pipe" and then gets hit be the <BR>
> pressure front of the air the *next* time you use it. That *would* be <BR>
> likely to go "boom". That pipe needs to be *heavily* armored. <BR>
<BR>
Or you simply need a method of cleaning the pipe.  Running the<BR>
system while the grav tank is flying should be sufficient. <BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:47:32 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson writes:<BR>
>>The question is how much power it needs and how long a cheap *small*<BR>
>>battery with a *long* shelf life can supply it. See my other post for<BR>
>>some ideas on how to minimize power and still do a good job.<BR>
>Why batteries? Use a wind-up one. Infinite shelf life, and the current<BR>
>ones get some 30 minutes of playtime out of a single winding. Granted<BR>
>those are recievers not trancievers, but that's a matter of construction.<BR>
<snipped><BR>
<BR>
	These would be excellent for planetary survival kits, but you<BR>
	don't want survivors in life pods with limited O2 to be<BR>
	exerting themselves charging batteries.  Probably good batteries<BR>
	are more efficient in this case.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:56:21<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 08:07 PM 7/11/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug, You *are* aware that telling a minor about Ditzie falls under<BR>
>"Corrupting the morals of a minor" aren't you? I understand that<BR>
>Children's Services (or whatever they call it in CA) gets *real* upset<BR>
>about that sort of thing.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard, this is *Craig's* kid.  I couldn't corrupt her if I tried.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:06:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 03:16 PM 7/13/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>This is all very interesting, but who the h*** is Ditzie??!?!?!<BR>
<BR>
Ah, a little history.<BR>
<BR>
At the release of T4, the TML started a ship design contest, and several of<BR>
us began fictitious companies to handle to Imperial design requests.  One<BR>
of these was Famile Spofulam, which specialized in taking excess to extremes.<BR>
<BR>
One of the characters to come out of this was the pre-teen niece of FS'<BR>
owner. Ditzie is a genius, and is kept active by massive doses of pretty<BR>
little pilly-pilly-pills.  She writes with a stutter, and designs *evil*<BR>
high energy weapons, which she normal tests on the FS Legal and Marketing<BR>
Department.<BR>
<BR>
She has become something of a mascot for us.<BR>
<BR>
Jesse deGraff, Traveller artist extraordinaire, has done drawings of Ditzie<BR>
which can be found here:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
<BR>
She also shows up on page 83 of _Alien Races 3_, and the large shipping<BR>
container on the cover of _Starports_ is labeled "Famile Spofulam: High<BR>
Energy Weapons Division_.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
<BR>
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins<BR>
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse<BR>
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:20:44<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 08:06 AM 7/13/2000, I wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Jesse deGraff, Traveller artist extraordinaire, has done drawings of Ditzie<BR>
>which can be found here:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
<BR>
I should also mention that Ditzie made an appearance at the BayCon Party,<BR>
menacing an innocent penguin.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:14:28 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
When I was a nipper we had to crawl over a mile of<BR>
broken glass to reach the Games Center (and Hanley<BR>
Street was a rough area).<BR>
<BR>
Play Traveller for 25 hours a day using bits of paper<BR>
and<BR>
pens and when we got home our Dad used to beat us<BR>
with the wet end of the dog's leg.<BR>
<BR>
Kids today don't know they've been born.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:16:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
I loved that game. And of course when Traveller came<BR>
out<BR>
the Character creation process came as no shock<BR>
whatsoever.<BR>
<BR>
PS. does anyone remember the En Garde derived 'duelling<BR>
monk' system from Dragon?<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 3:35 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > Well I can be a curmudgeon for sure and I am 42.<BR>
And I love my Traveller.<BR>
> > I am so old I still have a copy of En Garde. (The<BR>
American Version)<BR>
><BR>
> I have a copy too. And I bought one as a Christmas<BR>
gift for a lady<BR>
> fencer who was in my D&D campaign back around 1980.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:31:07 EDT<BR>
From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
Where doug is involved, there are no innocent penguins....<BR>
<BR>
Doug wrote:<BR>
>Jesse deGraff, Traveller artist extraordinaire, has done drawings of Ditzie<BR>
>which can be found here:<BR>
><BR>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
<BR>
I should also mention that Ditzie made an appearance at the BayCon Party,<BR>
menacing an innocent penguin.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:40:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Man I have been playing since the LBBs came out.  I loved it then.  Canon?  We had to make our own!<BR>
<BR>
And I do remember the Fighting Monk system.<BR>
<BR>
I still play En Garde!<BR>
<BR>
Those were the days.<BR>
<BR>
Brian Jenkins (Resident Curmudgeon)<BR>
<BR>
>>> "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk> 07/13/00 08:14AM >>><BR>
When I was a nipper we had to crawl over a mile of<BR>
broken glass to reach the Games Center (and Hanley<BR>
Street was a rough area).<BR>
<BR>
Play Traveller for 25 hours a day using bits of paper<BR>
and<BR>
pens and when we got home our Dad used to beat us<BR>
with the wet end of the dog's leg.<BR>
<BR>
Kids today don't know they've been born.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey -<BR>
Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:10:29 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch writes:<BR>
> We imported my wife's brother (from Sierre Leone)<BR>
<BR>
> I never realised what the expression 'naturally good<BR>
> with his hands'<BR>
> really meant until I saw him do it.<BR>
> <BR>
> This has absolutely no relevence to the topic does it.<BR>
<BR>
Well, most of the skills you describe are TL 5-6.  Mostly it illustrates the inconsistency of real-world tech levels (most low-tech worlds probably have pockets of higher tech).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:23:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
 <BR>
> Given that the Darrians rose from TL 3 to Tl 16 (and even some<BR>
> TL items, such as air rafts) in only a few hundred years why<BR>
> would this progress have stopped if not for the Magriz?<BR>
> (Unless of course Yaskodray had a hand in it...)<BR>
<BR>
No, but the Solomani did.  They probably reached around TL 11 with help.<BR>
> <BR>
> If so Darrian technology might well have advanced well past<BR>
> TL 20. The Darrians developed from the Solomani TL 10 to<BR>
> TTL 16 between about -1395 and -924, or about 80 years per TL. <BR>
<BR>
The terrans would be TL 12 (the terrans had to have at least TL 12 in the interstellar wars), and Darrian would have reached that TL by the time the Terrans were integrated.  In addition, there's reasonable evidence that increased TL requires ever-increasing time and resources, so a linear increase is probably unreasonable.  Still, TL 17-20 would not be surprising.<BR>
<BR>
The result, incidentally, would probably not be a 'Darrian Empire' sandwiched between the Imperium and the Zhodani.  It would be more like the Terrans and the Ziru Sirka ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:58:16 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
Oooooooooooooooooooo..............<BR>
<BR>
Damn, so many projects, so little TIME!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:08 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > At 11:06 PM 7/11/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >>Although I reserve the right to change this as Josie grows up. <BR>
> I did tell<BR>
> >>you guys about the time she borrowed by copy of FFS2, a <BR>
> calculator and pen<BR>
> >>and paper, right ?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ian, my niece Lenore has just recieved GURPS and G:Traveller <BR>
> for her 10th<BR>
> > birthday, and wants to dress up as Ditzie this summer.  I will post the<BR>
> > pictures.<BR>
> <BR>
> Doug, You *are* aware that telling a minor about Ditzie falls under<BR>
> "Corrupting the morals of a minor" aren't you? I understand that<BR>
> Children's Services (or whatever they call it in CA) gets *real* upset<BR>
> about that sort of thing.<BR>
> <BR>
> On the other hand, I'd love to see some sweet young girl dressed as<BR>
> Ditzie at a Con masquerade. Mostly to see who in the audience<BR>
> *flinched* when the MC said "young Ditzie Spofulam"... <eg><BR>
> <BR>
> Y'know, it occurs to me that "The Adventures of Ditzie" might make an<BR>
> interesting comic book. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:55:34 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Not B&D, but BD as in an abbreviation for BattleDress.  Some peoples kids ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> RBasler1@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 12:53 AM<BR>
> To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 7/12/00 10:25:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time,<BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
>  Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD >><BR>
><BR>
>     Ummmm....guys?  Is everyone but me blissfully unaware of what<BR>
> B&D means?<BR>
> That and Ditzie do NOT go together....  :)<BR>
><BR>
>     Rod Basler, finally signing onto the list from home<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer - I'm at home, not work!  Go ahead, blame AOhell for my nutty<BR>
> opinions!  It's like talking to a wall!  (just kidding..I've been waiting<BR>
> weeks to say that)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:08:12 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy > <BR>
<BR>
Given the relatively slow pace of Darrian expansion before the Maghiz as<BR>
well as their basic culutral traits, I don't think the Darrian Empire would<BR>
have had that many conflicts with the Zhodani or the Ziru Sirka. Most likely<BR>
they would have concentrated their efforts on the higher quality planets in<BR>
the Spinward Marches, developing them to significant levels and maintaining<BR>
reasonable relations with their neighbors. After the Terran Confederation<BR>
took over the Ziru Sirka they may likely have had conflicts with the Rule of<BR>
Man until it fell back through Corridor and would then have gone back to<BR>
slow and  steady expansion on Darrian-prime worlds throughout the Domain of<BR>
Deneb region. Avoiding the Vargr, ignoring the Vilani, keeping a watchful<BR>
eye on the Zhodani and making sure the Fteirle advanced in another direction<BR>
by setting up some clans as a barrier between them and others.<BR>
And when the Third Imperium came back? Beating their primitive TL 13 ships<BR>
back and seizing a sector at a time until they got the message to go bother<BR>
someone else.<BR>
<BR>
On Darrians vs. Sword Worlds, using the Spinward Marches Campaign PBG data,<BR>
the Darrians have 15,135,581,207 people to the Sword Worlds 35,052,727,018.<BR>
This is excluding Entrope which has a population of 70,000,000,000 all by<BR>
itself. As part of the Darrian Confederation, it represents 82% of the total<BR>
population fo the Confederation.<BR>
If placed as part of the Sword Worlds, it was 66% of the total population.<BR>
The Darrians have 3 other Hi Pop worlds, only one of which is In. The Sword<BR>
Worlds have 3 Hi, In worlds which constitute 97% of the population of their<BR>
Confederation (pre-Border Worlds break up). (And I have some additional<BR>
numbers regarding both if anyone is interested.)<BR>
So who wins long term?<BR>
First and foremost, Entrope is beyond critical, especially given its (CT) TL<BR>
of 12. (Which is higher than all but one Sword World which it equals.) If<BR>
there was a Class A starport there, it would dominate both states. As it is,<BR>
whoever has its loyalty has the troops it needs to win any war.<BR>
Second...actually, after control of Entrope I don't think there is a second.<BR>
While the Sword Worlds has twice the base population and a wider industrial<BR>
base, the economic bases are about equal in terms or Ri and Ag worlds but<BR>
the Darrians have significantly greater internal political stability. They<BR>
also have a  critical TL superiority. (The Darrian armed forces are TL13<BR>
with up to TL 16 special forces. The Sword Worlds are TL10-11 with TL12 -13<BR>
special forces.) But this really pales next to the 70 billion people on<BR>
Entrope with TL 12 equipment. Picture a chihuahua and a dachshund competing<BR>
for the attention of a great dane.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:00:49 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
ROFLMAO!!!!<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 8:31 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Where doug is involved, there are no innocent penguins....<BR>
> <BR>
> Doug wrote:<BR>
> >Jesse deGraff, Traveller artist extraordinaire, has done <BR>
> drawings of Ditzie<BR>
> >which can be found here:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> I should also mention that Ditzie made an appearance at the BayCon Party,<BR>
> menacing an innocent penguin.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:44:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Luther Martin" <martin@ksarul.com><BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin <BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >I'm just not sure how the joint administration works yet.<BR>
> >Suggestions are welcome.<BR>
><BR>
> This could be a little like the joint administration of<BR>
> Germany and especially Berlin after WW2.  I think that<BR>
> there should only be one starport, just to make things<BR>
> extra complicated.  Should the starport be in the Imperial<BR>
> Zone, the Zhodani Zone, or straddling the border?  Should<BR>
> one or both sides be working on building a new starport for<BR>
> its exclusive use?  What does the treaty say?<BR>
<BR>
Since the Zhodani essentially owned the planet before any negotiations,<BR>
having captured it in 1082 in the Fourth Frontier War, I'm fairly sure that<BR>
they still have posession of it.<BR>
<BR>
Thus, I would say that the starport is in the Zhodani zone, but the treaty<BR>
allows free access to the starport by all parties. In addition to providing<BR>
a neutral meeting place for the Imperium and the perfidious Zhodani, Esalin<BR>
probably is economically important, providing food to the high-pop planets<BR>
of Riverland and Jewell, each but one jump away, so that both sides want to<BR>
ensure that a steady supply of food keeps moving. Currently, the existing<BR>
starport is running smoothly, and the Imperium has no plans to build a new<BR>
one. In fact, I'm guessing that construction of a new one is forbidden by<BR>
the treaty.<BR>
<BR>
Now, in the 3I, we assume that the starport is outside the jurisdiction of<BR>
the locals. In the case of Esalin, however, Zhodani customs will probably<BR>
prevail. Do the Zhodani treat starports in the same way?<BR>
<BR>
I have also reconsidered the facility to convert from Zhodani to Imperial<BR>
data formats. There is no reason for a fixed facility to do this. Rather,<BR>
special xboats which perform the conversion during jump are used instead.<BR>
The corporation which operates these data conversion xboats is a joint<BR>
Imperial megacorp and Zhodani megacorp operation, however, and is based on<BR>
Esalin, with major offices on Riverland and Jewell.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:13:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
At 11:51 -0400 8/7/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > Unfortunately, both the "U.S. - IAEA Safeguards Agreement" and the<BR>
> > "Nuclear Non-proliferation Act of 1978" prohibit exactly the kind<BR>
> > of tranfer you discuss. :^(<BR>
><BR>
>Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
<BR>
Why do you want a Eurofighter?<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2758<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2759</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 13 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2759<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re: Touching off the star drive<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2758<BR>
RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
re: Ship Automation<BR>
Reviewers again?<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: Reviewers again?<BR>
Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
Striker resources sought<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: Striker resources sought<BR>
Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
Re: Ship Automation<BR>
Adding Sectors to Galactic<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:16:07 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Touching off the star drive<BR>
<BR>
At 11:51 -0400 8/7/00, Stephen Bankhead <bankheas@bankhead.dnet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>Andy's site says that he will be shortly putting all his articles on the<BR>
>web in pdf format, but no date yet.  You want me to post the nuke stats?<BR>
<BR>
Hangs head in shame.<BR>
<BR>
I'm pdfing them and they will be at BITS but real life is a bit manic.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:04:34 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2758<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >         For those of you who haven't seen it yet, there is a very good online comic<BR>
> > called "Freefall". <BR>
> [snip]<BR>
> <BR>
> Is that the one where the birds are hiding something?<BR>
<BR>
No, that's "Kevin & Kell", which is not bad, but it's not really <BR>
Travelleresque. "Freefall" is just plain Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:36:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
>Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
>Not B&D, but BD as in an abbreviation for BattleDress.  Some peoples kids<BR>
;)<BR>
><BR>
>Jesse<BR>
<BR>
	I know, I know...but I almost dived for cover when I saw that subject line<BR>
(lol).  There are just some sophonts that one does NOT want anywhere near<BR>
you when you are handcuffed.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - (You know the drill by now :)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, but they don't tell me _what_ to think,<BR>
OK?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:40:09 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>>    The REAL LIFE Ditzie, in the immortal words of Sir <BR>
>>Robin, "RUN AWAY."<BR>
><BR>
>To pick a nit here. I think you will find that a close<BR>
>examination of the events surrounding every utterance of<BR>
>that line in MPATHG that this line was spoken by King<BR>
>Arthur, not as you seem to think by the Brave Sir Robin. <BR>
<BR>
When danger reared its ugly head<BR>
Sir Robin bravely turned and fled<BR>
Brave, brave Sir Robin!<BR>
Not quite as brave as Sir Galahad.<BR>
<BR>
Dave is quite correct.  King Arthur is the only one to give<BR>
the order, "Run away!"  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:43:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
<BR>
At 17:05 -0400 10/7/00,  "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:<BR>
> >From what Marc Miller has 'published' through the TML,  T5  seems<BR>
>to be to T4 what MT was to CT (in fact T5 was  originally  called<BR>
>T4.1).<BR>
<BR>
But, please God, without the errata....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:41:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's Evolution<BR>
<BR>
At 14:51 -0400 10/7/00, RE: So what is the next step in Traveller's <BR>
Evolution wrote:<BR>
>I'd like to know myself.  What is the thrust of T5.  More like CT or T4.<BR>
>What's getting fixed?  I already have CT,MT,TNE,T4 and GT.  What new and<BR>
>exiting that will make me want T5.<BR>
<BR>
The T4.1 (ie revised and expanded) playtest draft Marc sent out was a <BR>
cleaned up T4, with the bugs fixed. I haven't seen anything that <BR>
suggests that T5 will be much different from this (but that all <BR>
depends what FarFuture Enterprises wants to do with it).<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the setting was going to be late M0 (nearer the M200), <BR>
but there was also discussion of Stand Alone Entry Points (ie books <BR>
with the core system and a Milieu you could just go for).<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:35:48 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
At 14:51 -0400 10/7/00, "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote:<BR>
>I don't know that much about the history of "the New Era," but one<BR>
>natural question comes to mind: did the Virus ever get its grubby paws<BR>
>on Darrian "star trigger" technology?  That would be pretty ugly...<BR>
<BR>
No, the one true Imperium and its neighbours lived on in the Marches...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:29:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
At 18:15 -0400 9/7/00, Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
>nuclear reactors. With these designs, safety is very important. Because of<BR>
>this, they tried to automate lots of critical processes. What they found out<BR>
>was that although the automated system works much better than a system with<BR>
>a human operator, if something goes wrong, it's more difficult to fix. A<BR>
>human operator who keeps making adjustments to a process manually has an<BR>
>idea about what's going on, and if something starts to go wrong, he knows<BR>
>the history of the system and can more easily correct the problem. On the<BR>
>other hand, if a system is automated, whan operators try to make a<BR>
>correction, they *don't* know the history of the system, and thus have a<BR>
>much harder time understanding and correcting a problem.<BR>
<BR>
One thing to consider is to make the design _fail-safe_. An example <BR>
related to the nuclear thread would have been the Prototype Fast <BR>
Reactor the UK built at Dounreay in Scotland. One trial on this <BR>
included the deliberate shut down of the cooling loops; the reactor <BR>
then behaved as predicted. It rose in temperature by a hundred <BR>
degrees C or so (not sure of exact figure) and then stabilised as <BR>
natural cooling occurred due to convection currents in the Liquid <BR>
Sodium Coolant. So the reactor could handle a cooling failure.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that several PWR designs (especially submarine ones) use a <BR>
passive cooling system at lower power levels, with natural <BR>
recirculation.<BR>
<BR>
Automating the system isn't in itself bad - it's how you do that automation.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:45:46 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Reviewers again?<BR>
<BR>
Behind the Throne came out this month, and reviews are appearing here and<BR>
there. None on the TML so far as I remember, so if someone wants to do one,<BR>
please get in touch.<BR>
<BR>
Meantime I have another one due out. This is a Napolonic adventure, and it<BR>
needs reweiwers for TML or other places. Volunteers please step forward.....<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:55:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
Brave sir Robin ran away.<BR>
Bravely ran away.<BR>
> When danger reared its ugly head<BR>
He bravely turned around and fled.<BR>
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about<BR>
And gallantly he chickened out.<BR>
Bravely taking to his feet,<BR>
He beat a very brave retreat.<BR>
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!<BR>
<BR>
IIRC<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave is quite correct.  King Arthur is the only one to give<BR>
> the order, "Run away!"  <BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but do you know the lyrics to "Super Chicken"?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:03:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Reviewers again?<BR>
<BR>
> Meantime I have another one due out. This is a Napolonic adventure, and it<BR>
> needs reweiwers for TML or other places. Volunteers please step<BR>
> forward.....<BR>
<BR>
Napolonic!?  explique s'il vous plait (OK, my French is a little rusty)<BR>
Napoleonic perhaps? Please be more specific. Being a big time Napoleonic<BR>
wars buff, I cannot help but be intrigued.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:01:45 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Roc: Jury Stuff...<BR>
<BR>
>>Thanks Leonard, I had already made notes on such things and you have<BR>
>>added to that for me - Thank-you<BR>
><BR>
>You know, I'd like to see a description of how some other systems handle<BR>
this too. >I know the French have a different method for conducting trials,<BR>
are there some >other methods that the TML members are familiar with that<BR>
you'd care to tell us >about?<BR>
<BR>
Mark J. Young wrote an absolutely fascinating three part series on "Law and<BR>
Enforcement in Imaginary Realms" which I believe is absolutely must read for<BR>
anyone wanting to create a legal system in a game. It's in "Places to Go,<BR>
People to Be" at:<BR>
<BR>
http://ptgptb.humbug.org.au/index.html<BR>
<BR>
The legal system IMTU is described at:<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.net/carlino/Law.htm<BR>
<BR>
As noted in the article I fully believe that the "Rule of Men Not Laws"<BR>
results in system that is not as good at protecting the rights of the common<BR>
man. And that results in more rights for the nobility. As I always say,<BR>
"What's the use of being a Noble if the same laws apply to you as everyone<BR>
else?"<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:05:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 11:55 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Brave sir Robin ran away.<BR>
> Bravely ran away.<BR>
> > When danger reared its ugly head<BR>
> He bravely turned around and fled.<BR>
> Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about<BR>
> And gallantly he chickened out.<BR>
> Bravely taking to his feet,<BR>
> He beat a very brave retreat.<BR>
> Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Oh, and something about<BR>
<BR>
Petrified of being dead,<BR>
Soiled his pants...<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have the full and correct lyrics?<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Gum Brain" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:06:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
>>>><BR>
Yes, but do you know the lyrics to "Super Chicken"?<BR>
>>>>><BR>
<BR>
When  you find yourself in Danger<BR>
When you're threatened by a stranger<BR>
When it looks like you till take a lickin<BR>
<BR>
<Insert rythmic clucks here><BR>
<BR>
There is someone waiting who will hurry up and resue you...<BR>
Just Caaaallllllll for Super Chicken<BR>
<BR>
<More clucks><BR>
<BR>
But if you're afraid you'll have to overlook it!<BR>
Because you the knew the job was dangerous when you took it!<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
<BR>
He will drink his Super Sauce and he will throw them for a loss<BR>
Then he will bring them in alive and kickin<BR>
<BR>
<Yet more clucks><BR>
<BR>
There is something you should learn <BR>
when there is no where else to turn <BR>
just Caaaalllllll for Super Chicken<BR>
<BR>
<Even More clucks><BR>
<BR>
Caaaalllllll  for SUPER CHICKEN<BR>
<BR>
<Final big cluck><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think I got most of it right<BR>
<BR>
Scary isn't it?<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Striker resources sought<BR>
<BR>
In preparing for some minor leading to major Striker gaming<BR>
this summer, I am seeking vehicle statistics. Do you know<BR>
of any compendium (ideally on the internet) of Striker<BR>
vehicle designs (besides The Adjutant series)?  Do you know<BR>
of any compendium on the internet of modern military<BR>
vehicles that gives dimensions, weight, land and<BR>
cross-country speed, and weapons and equipment?  I can do a<BR>
rough job of working backwards to develop Striker<BR>
statistics from real world information.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:11:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> Yes, but do you know the lyrics to "Super Chicken"?<BR>
> >>>>><BR>
><BR>
> When  you find yourself in Danger<BR>
> When you're threatened by a stranger<BR>
> When it looks like you till take a lickin<BR>
<BR>
[super chicken stuff]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I think I got most of it right<BR>
><BR>
> Scary isn't it?<BR>
><BR>
> Brian<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Pretty much jibes with the lyrics I have. If you even see Steve Barnes (the<BR>
SciFi Author) at a con, make sure you ask him.  He has been know to treat<BR>
listeners to his own rendition.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:13:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
I actually layed down an audio track for it once in my  home studio.<BR>
<BR>
>>> "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> 07/13/00 12:11PM >>><BR>
<BR>
> >>>><BR>
> Yes, but do you know the lyrics to "Super Chicken"?<BR>
> >>>>><BR>
><BR>
> When  you find yourself in Danger<BR>
> When you're threatened by a stranger<BR>
> When it looks like you till take a lickin<BR>
<BR>
[super chicken stuff]<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I think I got most of it right<BR>
><BR>
> Scary isn't it?<BR>
><BR>
> Brian<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Pretty much jibes with the lyrics I have. If you even see Steve Barnes (the<BR>
SciFi Author) at a con, make sure you ask him.  He has been know to treat<BR>
listeners to his own rendition.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:14:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Striker resources sought<BR>
<BR>
> vehicle designs (besides The Adjutant series)?  Do you know<BR>
> of any compendium on the internet of modern military<BR>
> vehicles that gives dimensions, weight, land and<BR>
> cross-country speed, and weapons and equipment?  I can do a<BR>
> rough job of working backwards to develop Striker<BR>
> statistics from real world information.<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I usually use Jane's.  An older copy can be picked up quite reasonably, and<BR>
there are several vehicle recognition guides available from them that are<BR>
inexpensive even when new.  I might be willing to donate one of my guides to<BR>
the cause in return for a copy of" Strikerized" stats.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:22:22 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re : FFS3 (was Re:Body Bunker Redux)<BR>
<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch wrote :-<BR>
>> Marc, seeing as how the authors never actually got paid for FFS2, can we<BR>
>> just bite the bullet and release FFS3 ? I think a TML ?Swede? has a<BR>
clean,<BR>
>> errata-free electronic copy ...)<BR>
<BR>
>Jens Rydholm, IIRC.<BR>
><BR>
>Perhaps we should incorporate the following :-<BR>
<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
Many different types of technical items....<BR>
<SNIP><BR>
<BR>
GURPS already can handle a lot of this stuff using G:V and GT has a modular<BR>
design system (And a soon to be released modular Grav Vehicle Design System,<BR>
in GT:GF.) Has anybody found a way to combine the GURPS spacecraft and<BR>
equipment stuff with a more CT like Character and Combat System?<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:07:46 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 7:29 PM<BR>
Subject: re: Ship Automation<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 18:15 -0400 9/7/00, Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net> wrote:<BR>
> >nuclear reactors. With these designs, safety is very important. Because<BR>
of<BR>
> >this, they tried to automate lots of critical processes. What they found<BR>
out<BR>
> >was that although the automated system works much better than a system<BR>
with<BR>
> >a human operator, if something goes wrong, it's more difficult to fix. A<BR>
> >human operator who keeps making adjustments to a process manually has an<BR>
> >idea about what's going on, and if something starts to go wrong, he knows<BR>
> >the history of the system and can more easily correct the problem. On the<BR>
> >other hand, if a system is automated, whan operators try to make a<BR>
> >correction, they *don't* know the history of the system, and thus have a<BR>
> >much harder time understanding and correcting a problem.<BR>
><BR>
May I just butt in here, there is tha case scenario to consider here that<BR>
not automating a service( no particular service,) may in fact put the<BR>
service at risk. I mean I know what you are saying when you say that prior<BR>
knowledge to a system when trying to work on it, is a risk to both the<BR>
system at to those in close proximity of that system.<BR>
An easy and simple exaple would be the wangle on a car. I think that was<BR>
what they wrer called. The hand started to start an ols fashioned car, left<BR>
the operator at risk and was better replaced with the electric start. We<BR>
give it not a second thought nowadays.<BR>
This being a very simple example, though automated services are built on<BR>
knowledge that the grounds they are developed on are truly reliable, hence<BR>
gaining the users trust, that they will work with no worry, in there being<BR>
any danger to any which will be in their proximity.<BR>
It has to be said that as we develop more intricate systems to thos that we<BR>
allready have in use, then greater knowledge is required to operate them<BR>
safely. Though from personnal experience and observation, can't it be said<BR>
that working with certain systems evolves a reflex reaction from the<BR>
operator for anything thats is required adjustment for correct funtion of<BR>
that device.<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:11:36 GMT<BR>
From: newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk)<BR>
Subject: Adding Sectors to Galactic<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone give me a down and dirty on how to do this? Appreciated...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:32:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
RBasler1@aol.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> << From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
 <BR>
>   Given that the Darrians rose from TL 3 to Tl 16 (and even some<BR>
>  TL 17 items, such as air rafts) in only a few hundred years why<BR>
>  would this progress have stopped if not for the Magriz?<BR>
>  The Darrians developed from the Solomani TL 10 to<BR>
>  TTL 16 between about -1395 and -924, or about 80 years per TL. <BR>
>  Another 2,000 years of this sort of progress might have given<BR>
>  them another (2,000/80) 25 tech levels of so which would put<BR>
>  them at about TL 41 or so. :)<BR>
<BR>
>     You are assuming a straight-line development.  It would be far more <BR>
> likely that it was a sigmoid curve that levels out at the top if tech <BR>
> development in the 3I is any indication.  <BR>
<BR>
Tech level development in the third Imperium is _not_ topping<BR>
out. In fact the rate of technological progress in the Imperium <BR>
is increasing:<BR>
<BR>
TTL 12	-150<BR>
TTL 13	 300<BR>
TTL 14      700<BR>
TTL 15    1,000<BR>
[MT Ref's Companion p34].<BR>
<BR>
It took 450 years for the Imperium to gain TL 13, 400 years<BR>
to reach TL 14, and only 300 years to reach TL 15. The Imperium<BR>
already has some TL 16 worlds and (barring the Rebellion, or <BR>
Virus, or the Empress Wave, etc) might well reach TL 16 in<BR>
"only" 250 years or so.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that the Darrian rate of progress would not increase,<BR>
as the Third Imperium's did, is actually a pessimistic scenario.<BR>
<BR>
> Besides, looking at some of the <BR>
> _really_ high tech stuff in GURPS Ultra Tech, some pretty significant <BR>
> breakthroughs are required, which could further delay progress.  The <BR>
> development curve could then look like it is approaching a horizontal <BR>
> asymptote.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS Ultra Tech Items are _not_ Traveller canon until<BR>
and unless Loren says they are as such they are irrelevant<BR>
to our discussion.<BR>
<BR>
We do not currently have sufficient knowledge of the universe<BR>
to know how difficult it is to raise TL's over 16. I will note<BR>
that Grandfather raised the Droyne Tech Level to that of<BR>
the Ancients with only a few hundred sons and grandsons to<BR>
help him. If hundreds of Ancients can raise TL's than surely <BR>
billions of Darrians can do so as well and the trillions that<BR>
the Imperium need to do it are irrelevant.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:55:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
This has been an interesting thread.  I usually don't have<BR>
a lot to say about technical stuff, but here is an idea:<BR>
<BR>
I like the idea of the rescue ball having a way to push<BR>
things through in either direction without losing interior<BR>
air to vaccuum.  For example, you could have a soft airlock<BR>
made of the same material as the rescue ball.  It would be<BR>
a portion of the ball with three slitted and slightly loose<BR>
fitting layers.  You could then push something through the<BR>
first layer and seal the slit behind it.  Then you'd push<BR>
it through the second layer and let the second slit seal. <BR>
Likewise for the final layer.  It would work in either<BR>
direction.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:37:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/13/00 2:55 PM, gmgoffin@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> This has been an interesting thread.<BR>
<BR>
I second that! I got an idea too, what about a wheel shape with a tension<BR>
support through the hub?<BR>
<BR>
These links may be of interest to somebody:<BR>
http://algor.com/adw/adwver.dir/no_055/no_055.htm<BR>
http://algor.com/adw/adwver.dir/homepage.htm<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:55:21 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:06:04<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
> At 03:16 PM 7/13/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >This is all very interesting, but who the h*** is Ditzie??!?!?!<BR>
><BR>
> Ah, a little history.<BR>
><BR>
> At the release of T4, the TML started a ship design contest, and several<BR>
of<BR>
> us began fictitious companies to handle to Imperial design requests.  One<BR>
> of these was Famile Spofulam, which specialized in taking excess to<BR>
extremes.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Examples are the the J-class racing yacht (pulls 15.2 gees), the Rocket Bike<BR>
(1000 kph at TL6. Just take the pedal off the metal after 87 seconds, OK ?),<BR>
the Grav Pogo Stick and the Light Export Forklift (400 kmh top speed, stops<BR>
many small-caliber rounds, and is classified as a 'forklift' by all<BR>
appropriate Ministry of Commerce regulations).<BR>
<BR>
Then we have the weapons, which range from the Barbie's Own Particle Carbine<BR>
accessory for the Barbie's Own Battledress line, to the PuRSe system (a<BR>
personal-protection hand weapon. 40mm of self-forging projectile warhead<BR>
should deal with most muggers and some armoured personell carriers), to Riot<BR>
Control Shotgun, to the D gun (100 megajoules is a nice round number for a<BR>
plasma gun), to the Point Defense Laser (400 megajoules at 24 shots per<BR>
minute. And it fits into an Imperial Standard 5dton turret).<BR>
<BR>
There are also some starships, such as the Moonshine Rapid<BR>
Insertion/Extraction ship (libelled as the DrugDrug RunnerRunner in some<BR>
circles).<BR>
<BR>
There are also some dual-use items, such as the Sound System.<BR>
<BR>
> One of the characters to come out of this was the pre-teen niece of FS'<BR>
> owner. Ditzie is a genius, and is kept active by massive doses of pretty<BR>
> little pilly-pilly-pills.  She writes with a stutter, and designs *evil*<BR>
> high energy weapons, which she normal tests on the FS Legal and Marketing<BR>
> Department.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
To quote the original FS genius, Roderick Elliot, 'An early Gridlore<BR>
advertising slogan of "At least our products aren't designed by drugged-out<BR>
children" was quickly suppressed by massive legal action'.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, Hengabar is the Hereditary Patricach (HP). The ownership structure is<BR>
unclear at this point, but is rumoured to involve the Sayat.<BR>
<BR>
> She has become something of a mascot for us.<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse deGraff, Traveller artist extraordinaire, has done drawings of<BR>
Ditzie<BR>
> which can be found here:<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Jesse has a lot to do with this. The "I *heart* HE" badges are soooo cute.<BR>
<BR>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/ditzie.htm<BR>
><BR>
> She also shows up on page 83 of _Alien Races 3_, and the large shipping<BR>
> container on the cover of _Starports_ is labeled "Famile Spofulam: High<BR>
> Energy Weapons Division_.<BR>
<BR>
I cannot either confirm or deny rumours of either a FS website, cartoon<BR>
series or associated merchandising at this time.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
Personal Assistant to<BR>
<BR>
Executive Vice-President<BR>
Ditzhammer Spofulam<BR>
High Energy Solutions Division<BR>
Famile Spofulam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2759<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2760</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 13 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2760<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ditzie<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: Other conflicts<BR>
Re: Reviewers again?<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Striker resources sought<BR>
Superchicken<BR>
Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2759<BR>
RE: Tech development curve<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Traveller under attack (that includes T5)<BR>
RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
Longitude<BR>
RE: FS's inspired lunacy<BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:55:35 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
<BR>
At 13:49 -0400 13/7/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At the release of T4, the TML started a ship design contest, and several of<BR>
>us began fictitious companies to handle to Imperial design requests.  One<BR>
>of these was Famile Spofulam, which specialized in taking excess to extremes.<BR>
<BR>
The Bumper Famille Spofulam Winter 1997 Catalogue, as created by <BR>
Roderick Darroch Elliot (Hengabar Spofulam) may be found as an <BR>
Acrobat File at BITS website:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
- --> Archive page.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:45:03 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
At 13:50 -0400 12/7/00,  "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote:<BR>
> The Sword Worlds wouldn't exist as an independent<BR>
>political entity, although I can envision the Darrians giving Solomani<BR>
>colonists limited (planetary) political autonomy, in exchange for some<BR>
>kind of military service agreement (rather like the deal the canonical<BR>
>Darrians made with those Aslan colonists).<BR>
<BR>
AM8 The Darrians p9: - "The assimilation of the Solomani by the <BR>
Darrians took about 100 years. Initial contacts between the two races <BR>
concentrated on a sharing of basic technology....  ....From the <BR>
beginning the Solomani of the Itzin Fleet had decided to integrate <BR>
themselves into Darrian society. Rather than remain aloof and <BR>
separate, they merged themselves into the mainstream of Darrian life. <BR>
Solomani intermarried with Darrians...   By -1400 the Solomani of the <BR>
Itzin Fleet had effectively been absorbed into the mainstream of <BR>
Darrian Society."<BR>
<BR>
Bearing in mind that a Darrian Society that hadn't encountered the <BR>
Maghiz event would like have occupied the area that the STL(?) <BR>
settlers from the Sword Worlds had arrived at (Gram) in -399, a mere <BR>
8 parsecs from Darrian. Instead of empty space the Swordworlders <BR>
would have encountered a functional TL16/17 society which had <BR>
absorbed Solomani before, and they would be at a severe TL advantage <BR>
as this was the middle of the long night.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that it would be an interesting merger...<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 22:03:13 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
At 13:59 -0400 11/7/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
>Then why did the Aslan show up as a major race only _after_ they had<BR>
>discovered a crashed Solomani ship and reverse engineered the Jump<BR>
>Drive?<BR>
>Unless, of course, Gramps was out and fiddling about with them at the<BR>
>time.<BR>
<BR>
Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, when it did, <BR>
stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A Coincidence? I think <BR>
not....<BR>
<BR>
Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:55:21 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Other conflicts<BR>
<BR>
At 3:34 -0400 11/7/00, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
> > Settlers of Catan?<BR>
>Cthulu is in Settlers too ?<BR>
><grin><BR>
<BR>
D10 / D100 SAN roll please.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:04:58 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Reviewers again?<BR>
<BR>
Oui!<BR>
Mon ami - count me in!<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton<BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: MJ Dougherty <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 1:45 PM<BR>
Subject: Reviewers again?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Behind the Throne came out this month, and reviews are appearing here and<BR>
> there. None on the TML so far as I remember, so if someone wants to do<BR>
one,<BR>
> please get in touch.<BR>
><BR>
> Meantime I have another one due out. This is a Napolonic adventure, and it<BR>
> needs reweiwers for TML or other places. Volunteers please step<BR>
forward.....<BR>
><BR>
> Regards<BR>
><BR>
> MJD<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:54:05 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
At 3:34 -0400 11/7/00, Tod  wrote:<BR>
>So we've noted the TML Great Old Ones (are these like the Cthulu 'Old Ones'<BR>
>BTW?).<BR>
<BR>
Yes. It came out of the Traveller/Cthulhu Aiiiiiie R'yleh Doug <BR>
P-htagn-Enguin thread.<BR>
<BR>
>We also seem to be bragging about how long in the traveller tooth we<BR>
>are.  The question occurs:  Just what is the average age of the TML, and who<BR>
>is the crotchety-est, oldest traveller on the list anyway?<BR>
<BR>
It's been done before - but 28... Started gaming in 1983 with CoC and <BR>
Traveller and Basic D&D<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:13:39 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker resources sought<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 8:14 PM<BR>
Subject: RE: Striker resources sought<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > vehicle designs (besides The Adjutant series)?  Do you know<BR>
> > of any compendium on the internet of modern military<BR>
> > vehicles that gives dimensions, weight, land and<BR>
> > cross-country speed, and weapons and equipment?  I can do a<BR>
> > rough job of working backwards to develop Striker<BR>
> > statistics from real world information.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thanks.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> I usually use Jane's.  An older copy can be picked up quite reasonably,<BR>
and<BR>
> there are several vehicle recognition guides available from them that are<BR>
> inexpensive even when new.  I might be willing to donate one of my guides<BR>
to<BR>
> the cause in return for a copy of" Strikerized" stats.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Hey if you can give me more details on that Janes catalogue I'd be more than<BR>
happy. Though first seeing it for sale in a pirate cd catalogue list for a<BR>
bargian 50 English sterling for the 7 cd collection, was more than tempted,<BR>
anything new on the scene is available fron Janes web site, though I<BR>
recollect through my more than brief visit at Janes Place, did not see this<BR>
7 or more CD collection for sale.<BR>
Also this Strikerized stats, what is this.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
Though<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:30:28 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Superchicken<BR>
<BR>
Many good lines in Superchicken, but my favorite was:<BR>
<BR>
Fred: "Why don't you use your super vision?"<BR>
SC: "If I had any supervision would I be running around dressed like this?"<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:30:33 -0400<BR>
From: Traveller@serve.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Notorious TMLers<BR>
<BR>
At 12:34 am 7/3/00 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>At 12:56 -0400 2/7/00, GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
>> Others (that y'all may not even recognize) include, IMHO, Rob Dean, Paul<BR>
>>Sanders, the original list-admin whose exact name escapes me, Mark Cook and<BR>
>>the rest of the old PBEM admins, Mike Metlay, and others I'm sure I'm<BR>
>>forgetting...<BR>
><BR>
>Personally I'd add a few others in for more recent service (top of my <BR>
>head.... and not necessarily published):<BR>
><BR>
>Bruce Macintosh<BR>
>Dave Golden (currently off TML)<BR>
<BR>
	Still around, under a different email. And only skimming once every dozen<BR>
days or so ... how this message even got my attention is a mystery.<BR>
<BR>
	But I am flattered.<BR>
- -- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of the Traveller Apocalypse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:33:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "SD Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 10:03 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 13:59 -0400 11/7/00, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
wrote:<BR>
> >Then why did the Aslan show up as a major race only _after_ they had<BR>
> >discovered a crashed Solomani ship and reverse engineered the Jump<BR>
> >Drive?<BR>
> >Unless, of course, Gramps was out and fiddling about with them at the<BR>
> >time.<BR>
><BR>
> Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, when it did,<BR>
> stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A Coincidence? I think<BR>
> not....<BR>
><BR>
> Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
<BR>
Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:45:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote :-<BR>
> Can these effects be countered by exercise? <BR>
> So that the inhabitants of a 0.5 G world are OK as long as they exercise regularly.<BR>
Exercise is the only way to limit - not eliminate - the loss of muscle<BR>
and bone mass. The animal work done to date suggests that<BR>
supplementation with growth hormone and calcium, among other things,<BR>
adds to the protective effect of exercise.<BR>
The cardiovascular and autonomic changes will only be partly countered<BR>
by exercise (the only way to eliminate them would be to alter local<BR>
gravity).<BR>
<BR>
> On the other hand, there must be all sorts of negative effects of higher<BR>
> gravity also. It makes great science-fiction to have bad news guys<BR>
> from high-G planets, but is this remotely realistic?<BR>
<BR>
The big problems with higher gravity are cardiac (bigger hearts required<BR>
for bigger blood volumes ; the risk of cardiac failure is increased)<BR>
and musculoskeletal (more wear and tear on all joints and muscles).<BR>
<BR>
The tendency towards varicose veins and peripheral oedema is increased.<BR>
<BR>
So humans from a higher-g environment are shorter, stockier and<BR>
proportionately stronger than the baseline. Aerobic endurance might<BR>
be problematic.<BR>
<BR>
> Does a high-G environment also enhance the ability to withstand acceleration<BR>
> or other stresses?<BR>
The physiological adaptations to acceleration, blood loss, and<BR>
change of posture from recumbent to standing are the same ; the<BR>
difference<BR>
is in the intensity of response.<BR>
<BR>
4-5G would be the limit for standing upright for<BR>
someone raised in 1G (equivalent to 50% haemorrhage!), for example.<BR>
<BR>
I'll do a bit of reading and post a 'done to death' to the list in the<BR>
next couple of days, including some more plausible rules (night shift<BR>
willing).<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:05:50 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2759<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Tech level development in the third Imperium is _not_ topping<BR>
> out. In fact the rate of technological progress in the Imperium <BR>
> is increasing:<BR>
> <BR>
> TTL 12  -150<BR>
> TTL 13   300<BR>
> TTL 14      700<BR>
> TTL 15    1,000<BR>
> [MT Ref's Companion p34].<BR>
> <BR>
> It took 450 years for the Imperium to gain TL 13, 400 years<BR>
> to reach TL 14, and only 300 years to reach TL 15. The Imperium<BR>
> already has some TL 16 worlds and (barring the Rebellion, or <BR>
> Virus, or the Empress Wave, etc) might well reach TL 16 in<BR>
> "only" 250 years or so.<BR>
<BR>
Peter, I know you wouldn't dream of making an assumption that wasn't <BR>
explicitly stated in a rulebook, so can you tell me where in the MT <BR>
canon it states that there's a linear relationship between TL number <BR>
and "technological progress"?<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:40:09 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
>Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
><BR>
>Tech level development in the third Imperium is _not_ topping<BR>
>out. In fact the rate of technological progress in the Imperium<BR>
>is increasing:<BR>
><BR>
>TTL 12	-150<BR>
>TTL 13	 300<BR>
>TTL 14      700<BR>
>TTL 15    1,000<BR>
>[MT Ref's Companion p34].<BR>
><BR>
>It took 450 years for the Imperium to gain TL 13, 400 years<BR>
>to reach TL 14, and only 300 years to reach TL 15. The Imperium<BR>
>already has some TL 16 worlds and (barring the Rebellion, or<BR>
>Virus, or the Empress Wave, etc) might well reach TL 16 in<BR>
>"only" 250 years or so.<BR>
<BR>
	On earth, we took thousands of years to go from 0 to 2, but have jumped<BR>
from 4 to 8 within only one hundred years.  400 years to go up one level<BR>
would seem to be a bit of a flattening of the curve.  Anyway, I was just<BR>
trying to say that the assumption of straight-line development was not<BR>
necessarily valid.<BR>
	As for the non-canonicity of G:UT and UT2 material - of course it is not<BR>
canon, it's not even Traveller, but is still a good indication of some of<BR>
the developments that might happen at extremely high tech levels.  As<BR>
everyone knows by now, the main problem with trying to predict the future of<BR>
technology is that we tend to be too conservative and things come out of the<BR>
proverbial left field at us.  Look at the SF from the 60's and 70's - the<BR>
computers were all 'Big Iron'.  I've even seen lines like "...and the relays<BR>
whirred and clicked..." - transistors were already in common use by that<BR>
time.  Look at the book "The Forbin Project" - the computer that controlled<BR>
all the country's nuclear defense was this single, enormous, heavily<BR>
defended entity.  Not two decades later the computing/communication tasks<BR>
were distributed via the ARPAnet, which then quickly developed into the<BR>
Internet...and we all know where it went from there.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - COFIT (you know what it means by now)<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:52:26 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> > Given that the Darrians rose from TL 3 to Tl 16 (and even some<BR>
> > TL 17 items, such as air rafts) in only a few hundred years why<BR>
> > would this progress have stopped if not for the Magriz?<BR>
> > (Unless of course Yaskodray had a hand in it...)<BR>
> <BR>
> No, but the Solomani did.  They probably reached around TL 11 with help.<BR>
<BR>
Only TL 10 per AM 8.<BR>
<BR>
> > If so Darrian technology might well have advanced well past<BR>
> > TL 20. The Darrians developed from the Solomani TL 10 to<BR>
> > TTL 16 between about -1395 and -924, or about 80 years per TL. <BR>
> <BR>
> The terrans would be TL 12 (the terrans had to have at least TL <BR>
> 12 in the interstellar wars), <BR>
<BR>
This contradicts the canon evidence in the Darrians AM.<BR>
<BR>
"It took only a short time to go from the Solomani tech level<BR>
_10_ to 16. It took even less time for the Darrians to go from<BR>
their own tech level 3 to the wholesale adoption of Solomani<BR>
theories and engineering."<BR>
[AM 8 Darrians p 10]<BR>
<BR>
The terrans were indeed TL 12 during the Rule of Man. However<BR>
the Rule of Man "collapsed in -1776" [op cit p 9]. The Itzin<BR>
fleet which colonized Darrian did not set out until -1520 [op <BR>
cit] and reached Darrian in -1511. Canonically the fleet, which<BR>
hailed from Dingir in the SOlomani Rim, was TL 10. The fleet<BR>
may have been aware that TL 11 & 12 were possible but they<BR>
could not build them or else they would have been Tl 11 or 12<BR>
not merely Tl 10.<BR>
<BR>
> and Darrian would have<BR>
> reached that TL by the time the Terrans were integrated.  <BR>
> In addition, there's reasonable evidence that increased TL<BR>
> requires ever-increasing time and resources, so a linear increase <BR>
> is probably unreasonable.  <BR>
<BR>
There may indeed be such evidence in the real world but<BR>
we have no canon evidence that "increased TL requires ever<BR>
increasing time and resources" in the official TU. The rate<BR>
of technical progress in the Imperium is actually increasing.<BR>
[MT Ref Comp p 34, per my previous post].<BR>
<BR>
> Still, TL 17-20 would not be surprising.<BR>
<BR>
It would surprise me as being rather low. Barring divine<BR>
(Yaskodray! Yaskodray! Yaskodray!) intervention, I do not<BR>
see what would have stopped the Darrians advancement. AM 8 <BR>
does not mention any Darrian cultural conflicts that might<BR>
have erupted into civil war. [1] In general the Darrians are<BR>
portrayed as a remarkably rationalistic people. The Darrians had<BR>
no nearby neighbors to stop them. I would say that barring<BR>
the Magriz the Darrian Empire would, at the least, occupy most<BR>
of the Domain of Deneb (say The Spinward Marches, Deneb, Trojan <BR>
Reach and the coreward part of Reft Sector.) They might have<BR>
expanded farther into say Corridor, rimward Provence, Tuglikki,<BR>
and Gzurrdon Sectors and into  parts of Foreven and the Beyond.<BR>
Given that jump drives of Tl 17 or greater use less fuel and that<BR>
anti matter power plants are small Darrian ships of TL 20 or<BR>
so would not have been significantly hindered by the Great<BR>
Rift since they would have been able to easily manage 2<BR>
consecutive jump 6's.<BR>
<BR>
The Aslan did not cross the Great Rift until -1044 [AM 1]<BR>
and did not reach the area of Darrian until the eve of the<BR>
First Frontier War [AM 8 Darrians p 12]. If not for the Magriz<BR>
the coreward Aslan would still be in the Riftspan Reaches <BR>
sector. Some of them may have been integrated into the 'Darrian<BR>
Empire'. Nor were the Imperial in the area until much later.<BR>
While some Zhodani  traders reached as far as Corridor<BR>
as early as -2,000 [AM 4 p8] the Consulate itself showed little<BR>
interest in expanding into this area. Nor did the Vargr's move<BR>
very far into the Spinward Marches even absent the Imperium to<BR>
keep them out. AM 3 Vargr establishes that the Vargr were in<BR>
Gvurrdon Sector around -2,800 but did not move into the<BR>
Marches.<BR>
<BR>
[1] Some Darrians were not happy with technical progress.<BR>
They formed the "LoTech movement' [op cit p 10] and<BR>
moved to Rorre, as such and at TL 3 they could not have waged<BR>
a civil war with the other Darrians.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:07:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
> > and Darrian would have<BR>
> > reached that TL by the time the Terrans were integrated.  <BR>
> > In addition, there's reasonable evidence that increased TL<BR>
> > requires ever-increasing time and resources, so a linear increase <BR>
> > is probably unreasonable.  <BR>
> <BR>
> There may indeed be such evidence in the real world but<BR>
> we have no canon evidence that "increased TL requires ever<BR>
> increasing time and resources" in the official TU. The rate<BR>
> of technical progress in the Imperium is actually increasing.<BR>
> [MT Ref Comp p 34, per my previous post].<BR>
<BR>
Once you renormalize for the growth in wealth and population, the resource<BR>
requirements are still increasing.  In any case, its always possible to assume that there's a slowdown for some reason or another; technological advancement is not terribly predictable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:05:23 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller under attack (that includes T5)<BR>
<BR>
Good evening, Ladies and Germs...<BR>
In www.rpg.net<BR>
in the review GURPS Space (Third Edition) (Steve Jackson Games)  by James <BR>
Maliszewski...Traveller is under attack from the forces which want to bring <BR>
back 2300AD (not a half bad idea, quiet heretic).  Here is our opportunity <BR>
to convince a larger audience that Traveller is alive and well.  And that <BR>
Traveller whatever its incarnation can be the game of choice should anyone <BR>
think of SFRPG.<BR>
[cloaking] - back to studies, sorry any interruption<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:03:02<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
At 12:13 PM 7/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Pretty much jibes with the lyrics I have. If you even see Steve Barnes (the<BR>
>SciFi Author) at a con, make sure you ask him.  He has been know to treat<BR>
>listeners to his own rendition.<BR>
<BR>
We did Tai Chi with him at ConFrancisco (the 93 Worldcon) The man is a<BR>
serious trip.  Every see anybody leap into Harlan Ellison's arms?  Ever see<BR>
Harlan do Tai-chi?<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:20:14 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
Did anyone else catch this A&E special?  It was an interesting (well, as<BR>
interesting as a story about navigational methods and horology could be)<BR>
look at a struggle between two methods of telling longitude:  One based on<BR>
precise clocks and the other based on observations of lunar position.  The<BR>
clock method won out because it was simpler and more reliable.  A couple<BR>
of ObTravs occurred to me as I was watching the show:<BR>
<BR>
1. Navigational methods based on lunar position could potentially have<BR>
been used much earlier in history.  Thus, low tech worlds where robust<BR>
high-precision clocks are not available might use this sort of method. The<BR>
requirements seem to be small optical telescopes, writing (a book of lunar<BR>
positions is needed) and fairly advanced trig. <BR>
<BR>
2. In the miniseries, there was a strong political bias towards the lunar<BR>
method, which the clock-makers had to fight.  Could a similar political<BR>
battle explain one of the "mysteries of canon"?  I'm thinking of the old<BR>
"why did it take the Solomani so long to get to Barnard's Star?" problem. <BR>
One possibility is that they did not have the navigational capabilities to<BR>
jump into deep space.  Perhaps a certain model of navigation was favored<BR>
for political reasons, despite it's inferiority to others that would have <BR>
allowed deep-space jumps? <BR>
<BR>
Just some thoughts...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:26:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: FS's inspired lunacy<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie<BR>
><BR>
>>  One<BR>
>> of these was Famile Spofulam, which specialized in taking excess to<BR>
>extremes.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Then we have the weapons, which range from the Barbie's Own Particle<BR>
Carbine<BR>
>accessory for the Barbie's Own Battledress line, to the PuRSe system (a<BR>
>personal-protection hand weapon. 40mm of self-forging projectile warhead<BR>
>should deal with most muggers and some armoured personell carriers), to<BR>
Riot<BR>
>Control Shotgun, to the D gun (100 megajoules is a nice round number for a<BR>
>plasma gun), to the Point Defense Laser (400 megajoules at 24 shots per<BR>
>minute. And it fits into an Imperial Standard 5dton turret).<BR>
<BR>
	I'm rather fond of their "Riot Supression System" - a vehicle-mounted<BR>
minigun firing 18.5mmx75 shotgun shells.  My afore-mentioned Aslan merc,<BR>
after surviving the overrun of his forward-fire base on Efate, developed a<BR>
belt-fed MMG firing brass-cased 18.5mm shotgun shells (flechette rounds).<BR>
The idea was to have something that could be quickly transported by foot,<BR>
had a huge ammo capacity, and put out an ungodly cone of destruction from<BR>
the pointy end - a weapon that could be easily carried be a fire team to<BR>
weak points in the line and hose down the human-wave attackers.  It was<BR>
designed to be very rugged and reliable, have a high rate of fire, and have<BR>
the option of a rapid barrel change.  Picture an MG42/MG3 on steroids.<BR>
	Tod ("Cordite-meister"), if you are interested, I'll see if I can dig up<BR>
the specs from the reams of rumpled, dusty, disorganized Traveller papers.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (you know what it means by now)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:38:10<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
At 09:20 PM 7/13/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>Did anyone else catch this A&E special?  It was an interesting (well, as<BR>
>interesting as a story about navigational methods and horology could be)<BR>
>look at a struggle between two methods of telling longitude:  One based on<BR>
>precise clocks and the other based on observations of lunar position.  The<BR>
>clock method won out because it was simpler and more reliable.  A couple<BR>
>of ObTravs occurred to me as I was watching the show:<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and it was excellent, but then again, I love clocks.<BR>
><BR>
>1. Navigational methods based on lunar position could potentially have<BR>
>been used much earlier in history.  Thus, low tech worlds where robust<BR>
>high-precision clocks are not available might use this sort of method. The<BR>
>requirements seem to be small optical telescopes, writing (a book of lunar<BR>
>positions is needed) and fairly advanced trig. <BR>
<BR>
Except that it wasn't, in the words of Queen Anne's Requirement,<BR>
"practical."  Clouds could obscure the moon, and the odds that the one or<BR>
two officers who were capable of doing the trig would survive a long voyage<BR>
were chancy.<BR>
<BR>
Now, on a world with a small, fast moon, this method might become feasible.<BR>
 Keep a table of moon rises and sets compared to sunrise/set, and figure<BR>
from there. Still rough, but closer.<BR>
<BR>
>2. In the miniseries, there was a strong political bias towards the lunar<BR>
>method, which the clock-makers had to fight.  Could a similar political<BR>
>battle explain one of the "mysteries of canon"?  I'm thinking of the old<BR>
>"why did it take the Solomani so long to get to Barnard's Star?" problem. <BR>
>One possibility is that they did not have the navigational capabilities to<BR>
>jump into deep space.  Perhaps a certain model of navigation was favored<BR>
>for political reasons, despite it's inferiority to others that would have <BR>
>allowed deep-space jumps? <BR>
<BR>
The bias was more "how dare a *carpenter* try to tell us *scientists* how<BR>
to do this?"  Not the first time this sort or institutional arrogance has<BR>
slowed a project, nor will it be the last.<BR>
<BR>
A good pre-Milieu:0 campaign might be based around the development of meson<BR>
screens and weaponry, and getting the Navy to adopt them.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
<BR>
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html<BR>
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:54:54 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Too true :)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rodney<BR>
> Basler<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 11:36 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> >Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Not B&D, but BD as in an abbreviation for BattleDress.  Some peoples kids<BR>
> ;)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Jesse<BR>
><BR>
> 	I know, I know...but I almost dived for cover when I saw<BR>
> that subject line<BR>
> (lol).  There are just some sophonts that one does NOT want anywhere near<BR>
> you when you are handcuffed.<BR>
><BR>
> 	Rod Basler - (You know the drill by now :)<BR>
> ---------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer - They tell me to think, but they don't tell me _what_<BR>
> to think,<BR>
> OK?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:32:46 -0700<BR>
From: johncheryl.stella@gte.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Note:  Thanks to the list members, there is now 2 forms of MemWipe,<BR>
>'standard', which leaves fairly easy to detect metabolites or tracers in the<BR>
>users blood.  This is the most common forms.  People in high security<BR>
>positions can take this in the event of immenint capture.  Anyone well be<BR>
>able to detect the drug and realized interrogation about recent events will<BR>
>be pointless.<BR>
><BR>
>There is also a stealthy version which leaves no trace in the users<BR>
>bloodstream.  I'll be updating my med rules to reflect this.<BR>
<BR>
Oh thanks SOOO much to the list members!  Fine, but I'll remember you <BR>
guys when this starts causing havoc in one of our games.<BR>
<BR>
Do not assist the Evil Tod.  He's evil enough as it is!<BR>
<BR>
Red<BR>
(in e-mail address hell)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2760<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2761</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/14/00 5:48:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 14 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2761<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Traveller under attack (that includes T5)<BR>
GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
Some thoughts about the Darriens<BR>
Sector Data<BR>
Re: Traveller under attack?<BR>
Design Sequence 2.0 - CPR Guns<BR>
GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Low gravity effects<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: TML Landgrab: Esalin <BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:01:50 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Note:  Thanks to the list members, there is now 2 forms of MemWipe,<BR>
>>'standard', which leaves fairly easy to detect metabolites or tracers in the<BR>
>>users blood.  This is the most common forms.  People in high security<BR>
>>positions can take this in the event of immenint capture.  Anyone well be<BR>
>>able to detect the drug and realized interrogation about recent events will<BR>
>>be pointless.<BR>
>><BR>
>>There is also a stealthy version which leaves no trace in the users<BR>
>>bloodstream.  I'll be updating my med rules to reflect this.<BR>
><BR>
>Oh thanks SOOO much to the list members!  Fine, but I'll remember <BR>
>you guys when this starts causing havoc in one of our games.<BR>
><BR>
>Do not assist the Evil Tod.  He's evil enough as it is!<BR>
><BR>
>Red<BR>
>(in e-mail address hell)<BR>
<BR>
As if you will be able to remember any of this AFTER the Evil Tod <BR>
uses the stuff on us????<BR>
<BR>
Bill "What were those red zone coordinates again??" Eastlick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:27:20 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Traveller under attack (that includes T5)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:05:23 GMT<BR>
>From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
<BR>
>Good evening, Ladies and Germs...<BR>
<BR>
I just jumped in from the Hiver Federation and boy are my manipulative<BR>
appendages fatigued...<BR>
<BR>
>In www.rpg.net<BR>
>in the review GURPS Space (Third Edition) (Steve Jackson Games)  by James<BR>
>Maliszewski...Traveller is under attack from the forces which want to bring<BR>
>back 2300AD (not a half bad idea, quiet heretic).  Here is our opportunity<BR>
>to convince a larger audience that Traveller is alive and well.  And that<BR>
>Traveller whatever its incarnation can be the game of choice should anyone<BR>
>think of SFRPG.<BR>
>[cloaking] - back to studies, sorry any interruption<BR>
<BR>
While your there could somebody with information regarding the possibility<BR>
of an officially sanctioned continuation of the TNE timeline surf over to<BR>
the rumor mill section. There are a cupula guys there that might find the<BR>
info usefull. I think the thread is headed T5 or somesuch.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:49:50 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
<BR>
Okay. So I finally picked up Gurps Traveller (2nd Ed) from my FLGS.<BR>
<BR>
And I have a question regarding bay weapons. Bays are listed as requiring<BR>
10 internal spaces. On the theory that 1 space = 1 CT ton shouldn't that be<BR>
100 spaces? Or have the powers that be decided to reduce the space<BR>
requirements for bay weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your kind attention to my no doubt horrendously silly question,<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:15:07 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Some thoughts about the Darriens<BR>
<BR>
Just some random thoughts prompted by the ongoing thread<BR>
<BR>
The Zhodani reached the fringes of the Marches circa -2,500 and then <BR>
stopped. By about -1,000 the Zhodani were on a solid TL12 (GURPS <BR>
TL10). At the time of the Maghiz, the major Zhodani world in the region <BR>
(Cronor) had been settled for over 1,500 years. Cronor is 25 parsecs (81.5 <BR>
ly) from Darrian. The Maghiz wavefront was capable of frying electronics at <BR>
6 parsecs and would still be rather noticable at 25 parsecs. The Zhodani <BR>
were trading with the Sword Worlds for at least 100 years before making <BR>
contact with the Darrian.<BR>
Andrew etc.<BR>
  Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
  Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
  Shotgun $100<BR>
  The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:05:22 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Sector Data<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
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<BR>
Just to let people know I have so far posted 9 subsectors of the Banners<BR>
sector to my web site the rest will be up shortly. At which point I shall<BR>
begin expanding the descriptions of this hub of the universe.<BR>
<BR>
It can be found at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 05:18:07 -0400<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller under attack?<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:05:23 GMT<BR>
>From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
>Subject: Traveller under attack (that includes T5)<BR>
><BR>
>In www.rpg.net<BR>
>in the review GURPS Space (Third Edition) (Steve Jackson Games)  by James <BR>
>Maliszewski...Traveller is under attack from the forces which want to bring <BR>
>back 2300AD (not a half bad idea, quiet heretic).  <BR>
<BR>
Your conclusion isn't supportable from the evidence. James' review is very<BR>
favorable to GURPS Traveller in particular, preferring GT and GT: First In<BR>
to GURPS Space in several instances. He never mentions 2300AD at all.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover, in a later response to his review, James writes:<BR>
<BR>
"2300 AD was a remarkable experiment for its time and I have hopes that<BR>
someone will take up the gauntlet to produce something in a similar vein.<BR>
2300 AD, though, suffered from three very real problems, each of which<BR>
denied it a long-term future. "<BR>
<BR>
which hardly seems like a ringing endorsement, or an attack on Traveller in<BR>
favor of 2300AD.<BR>
<BR>
James writes for GURPS Traveller: he is co-author on John M. Ford's GT:<BR>
Starports, and has published 8 articles in JTAS since its resurrection<BR>
online. If that constitutes an attack on Traveller, we need many more of<BR>
the same. James Maliszewski has done more to "convince a larger audience<BR>
that Traveller is alive and well" than most, and he deserves better from<BR>
this forum.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:30:20 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Design Sequence 2.0 - CPR Guns<BR>
<BR>
Is the ammo volume and ammo price based on the listed table weight or is<BR>
it based on the adjusted weight for the ammo type?<BR>
<BR>
Also,  what are the volumnes for things that do not have volumes lists?<BR>
I have been using weight in tons / 1000<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:47:00 +0100<BR>
From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie><BR>
Subject: GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
<BR>
I would like to take this opertunity to sing the praises of<BR>
maps.grandsurvey.com. I have printed out 14 of the PDF sector files,<BR>
enlarged them to A3, and have constructed a breathtaking wall map (which<BR>
I am currently colouring in) :-><BR>
<BR>
However.... where can I get the key to the aliance codes? I've seen the<BR>
chart in Vilani and Vargr, but regretfully I don't own a copy.<BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Caball<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:18:32 +0100<BR>
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
My God, Leonard, I thought I was the last person on Earth to still<BR>
have a circular slide rule! You must be about as old as me (46) to<BR>
have one of those - do you have one of the twisting, sliding 'staff'<BR>
rules as well (mine is an old Sinclair model and great for calculating<BR>
quick orbits in Traveller, though - sad to say - I mostly use my<BR>
Sinclair Programmable Calculator for that. Remember them?)<BR>
<BR>
Between us, you, me, Ben A. and Brian J. must have a century of<BR>
Traveller playing at the back of us - as well as all being in that<BR>
small group of die-hard loonies that still like to play En Garde! And<BR>
how many of us play canon...maybe that's the definition of the oldest<BR>
farties on the TML. They remember when the canon began.<BR>
<BR>
Speaking of canon - and off topic for Traveller - Dr Who missed some<BR>
wonderfull  stuff in the missing bits of Battlefield, and didn't you<BR>
write that Ben? What was there that never made the screen? Was it you<BR>
that came up with the never-shown line that the Doctor was "much more<BR>
than just a Time Lord"?<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK<BR>
Email     : mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
Website : www.mpreston.demon.co.uk<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: 12 July 2000 03:37<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
> I've got *three* slide rules (one is a pocket sized<BR>
> circular one). The<BR>
[snip]<BR>
><BR>
> I've got *two* abacuses. One "pocket sized", the other *huge*<BR>
><BR>
> ps. If anybody has a "normal sized" (ie not pocket sized)<BR>
> circular slide<BR>
> rule they'd like to get rid of, I'll gladly take it off their hands.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:14:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:20 PM 7/13/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>>Did anyone else catch this A&E special?  It was an interesting (well, as<BR>
>>interesting as a story about navigational methods and horology could be)<BR>
>>look at a struggle between two methods of telling longitude:  One based on<BR>
>>precise clocks and the other based on observations of lunar position.  The<BR>
>>clock method won out because it was simpler and more reliable.  A couple<BR>
>>of ObTravs occurred to me as I was watching the show:<BR>
<BR>
Argh! the blurb in the TV guide said nothing about any of this, so I<BR>
skipped it.<BR>
<BR>
>>1. Navigational methods based on lunar position could potentially have<BR>
>>been used much earlier in history.  Thus, low tech worlds where robust<BR>
>>high-precision clocks are not available might use this sort of method. The<BR>
>>requirements seem to be small optical telescopes, writing (a book of lunar<BR>
>>positions is needed) and fairly advanced trig. <BR>
><BR>
> Except that it wasn't, in the words of Queen Anne's Requirement,<BR>
> "practical."  Clouds could obscure the moon, and the odds that the one or<BR>
> two officers who were capable of doing the trig would survive a long voyage<BR>
> were chancy.<BR>
><BR>
> Now, on a world with a small, fast moon, this method might become feasible.<BR>
>  Keep a table of moon rises and sets compared to sunrise/set, and figure<BR>
> from there. Still rough, but closer.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, small fast moons are a lot more likely than "big slow" ones<BR>
like we have. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 03:05:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 12:13 PM 7/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Pretty much jibes with the lyrics I have. If you even see Steve Barnes (the<BR>
>>SciFi Author) at a con, make sure you ask him.  He has been know to treat<BR>
>>listeners to his own rendition.<BR>
><BR>
> We did Tai Chi with him at ConFrancisco (the 93 Worldcon) The man is a<BR>
> serious trip.  Every see anybody leap into Harlan Ellison's arms?  Ever see<BR>
> Harlan do Tai-chi?<BR>
<BR>
Steve used to attend PorSFiS (Portland Science Fiction Society)<BR>
meetings and he was seriously odd even then. :-)<BR>
<BR>
One of his more amusing "talks" was about writing for cartoons to get<BR>
enough money to live on while working on his books. Apparently a lot of<BR>
the writers try to "sneak in" little things that aren't "appropriate"<BR>
but aren't likely to be caught either.<BR>
<BR>
I also recall his comments about a Conan novel he wrote. Just to keep<BR>
from being bored to death, he included a sub-plot element with there<BR>
never being any meat available when Conan reached an inn or whatever.<BR>
"Very sorry, but we just sold the last bit. We do have some nice fish...."<BR>
<BR>
He said his private "working title" for the book was "Conan the<BR>
Vegetarian". <BR>
<BR>
If anybody recognizes the book from that description, let me know what<BR>
the title is, Apparently he wrote several Conan books, and I haven't<BR>
found *that* one yet.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:36:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (getting long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>I expect that the urine container will have a soft, flexible cover,<BR>
>>somewhere between felt and terrycloth. This will be a specially<BR>
>>engineered "fabric" that wicks liquids in only one direction. Inward.<BR>
>>So whatever species you are, you hold it up against the opening of the<BR>
>>urethra (or equivalent) and the liquid goes thru or is absorbed.<BR>
><BR>
>         I was thinking more of a container with a soft, flexible opening<BR>
>         that could be opened while against the body.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the stream will either be too slow, and give you a<BR>
film or large droplet of urine attached to you by surface tension<BR>
(*especially* on women). Or it'll be moving fast enough that when it<BR>
hits the container it'll *splash*, leaving lots of drops of various<BR>
sizes floating around inside. And when you pull the cantainer back from<BR>
the body, the drops won't follow the container. <BR>
<BR>
Open containers for liquid just don't work in free fall. <BR>
<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
>>Handi wipes will do for dealing with fecal material. And for other<BR>
>>things. Add a supply of very absorbent "towels" for dabbing up puddles<BR>
>>(in gravity) or floating globules (in zero g).<BR>
><BR>
>         The towelettes could be handy.  Scented, perhaps.<BR>
<BR>
NO!!!!!!! <shudder><BR>
<BR>
You never use scented *anything* in a sealed environment. Among other<BR>
things, it shortens the life of the activated charcoal air filter.<BR>
Also, such volatiles quickly build up to intolerable levels without<BR>
"open air" (or a ships heavy duty life support filters).<BR>
<BR>
In fact, the alcohol that some (many?) of the towellettes use is a<BR>
problem as well.<BR>
<BR>
>>>>> a sip-sack of liquid food, and instructions could be found<BR>
>>>>Pass on the food.  You can go plenty long without it, and why add to the<BR>
>>>>feces problem.  Maybe a nice electrolyte sip tube with an appetite<BR>
>>>I agree about the feces, but I meant a drink that contains easily<BR>
>>>digested and absorbed food and produces no feces.  Think souped<BR>
>>>up Gatorade.<BR>
>>Actually, more like liquid jello. I've worked in a nursing home kitchen<BR>
>>and we had people on liquid, low residue diets. Basicly liquid jello<BR>
>>(protiens and sugar), and boullion (supplies salts, but also gives some<BR>
>>*variety* in tastes). <BR>
><BR>
>         Anyone who has had a colonoscopy knows all about eating to<BR>
>         avoid fecal stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>>BTW, it may be an acquired taste, but sucking on a boullion cube isn't<BR>
>>half bad. <BR>
><BR>
>         Not too salty for you?<BR>
<BR>
It can be on the edge. But it's no worse than "Vinegar and salt"<BR>
flavored potatoo chips (which I can't stand). <BR>
<BR>
>>So I'd be tempted to have a liquid sweet with protien, and "cubes" or<BR>
>>"paste" of something "meaty" (but with no fiber!). And both would<BR>
>>probably be formulated so that while they taste ok, you won't *want* to<BR>
>>eat much of them (this is doable with simple making them very sweet or<BR>
>>salty tasting, and probably in other ways).<BR>
><BR>
>         I'd be worried less about someone feeling satisfied.  Sure, they<BR>
>         may suck it all down right away, but there is only so much that<BR>
>         you can do.  I would suggest perhaps 1 L of clear liquid food,<BR>
>         mainly to avoid immediate problems with dehydration.<BR>
<BR>
I'd have several liters of *water*, with smaller amounts of "food". <BR>
<BR>
> <snipped><BR>
>>You either want the ball to be white (reduces heat loss and absorption)<BR>
>>or some violent "rescue" color (yellow, red, orange, green, blue). If you go<BR>
>>for colors, I'd have each of the "gores" that make up the surface a<BR>
>>different color. Say red, yellow, orange and green, placed so that no<BR>
>>adjacent gores are the same color. That way, it'll stand out against<BR>
>>*any* background. <BR>
><BR>
>         I don't know how often the colour is going to be terribly helpful.<BR>
>         White or highly reflective would seem to be the best choices.<BR>
<BR>
You may be searching inside the ship for these things. They may also<BR>
get used in emergencies on vacuum worlds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:15:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 7/12/00 10:25:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
> << From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
>  Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD >><BR>
><BR>
>     Ummmm....guys?  Is everyone but me blissfully unaware of what B&D means? <BR>
>  <BR>
> That and Ditzie do NOT go together....  :)<BR>
<BR>
But "BD" <> "B&D". <BR>
<BR>
Actually, B&D would be a not *too* dangerous outlet for any "urges"<BR>
Mistress Ditzhammer might have. I'm sure she'd check the limits of the<BR>
human body as closely as she does those of any component in the weapons<BR>
she designs. <BR>
<BR>
Besides, good bondage devices are probably required to get the leeegals<BR>
to stick around to view the tests...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:23:33 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Low gravity effects<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Have any studies been done with organisms under low gravity?  With humans<BR>
> I know there hasn't been, just high and micro.  There may have been animal<BR>
> studies on the shuttle using centrifuges, but I don't remember.  Anyone<BR>
> have any info on this?<BR>
<BR>
I read an article some years back. The problem is that short of using<BR>
centrifuges on Shuttle missions (*very* messy to design, because you<BR>
have to have an another mass rotating in the opposite direction so as<BR>
to not impart any torque to the Shuttle) there's *no* way to have<BR>
continuous low gravity. <BR>
<BR>
We can (and have) done experiments with *increased* gravity. But we<BR>
can't produce *sustained* low g.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:27:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erikson wrote:<BR>
>> I'm not certian. What I'd be a bit more worried about is organic <BR>
>> material that gets displaced into the "pipe" and then gets hit be the <BR>
>> pressure front of the air the *next* time you use it. That *would* be <BR>
>> likely to go "boom". That pipe needs to be *heavily* armored. <BR>
><BR>
> Or you simply need a method of cleaning the pipe.  Running the<BR>
> system while the grav tank is flying should be sufficient. <BR>
<BR>
Nope. The air won't be at all that high a pressure without the ground<BR>
providing back pressure, and the small bits that can start the<BR>
combustion may not just blow off.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:04:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TL awareness (was High TL Planets)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I agree that a survey scout would say so and maybe also some engineers,<BR>
> but I doubt that ordinary citizens would concern themselves with tech<BR>
> levels. After all TL is a rather loose concept. A TL15 world citizen<BR>
> coming from TL8 world would probably just comment that the world he<BR>
> visited was so primitive that they didn't even have grav traffic<BR>
> control, that the toilet was flushed with water and the waiters were<BR>
> human even in family restaurants.<BR>
<BR>
I think it'd mostly be of concern on trips and for imports. Just like<BR>
it is now (only we don't call it tech level)<BR>
<BR>
Folks taking trips to some countries have to worry about availability<BR>
of meds, and sometimes about consumables for high tech gear like<BR>
cameras and laptops. At the same time, people in some countries have to<BR>
worry about the ability to get imported items fixed. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:19:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
>>Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not B&D, but BD as in an abbreviation for BattleDress.  Some peoples kids<BR>
> ;)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Jesse<BR>
><BR>
>    I know, I know...but I almost dived for cover when I saw that subject line<BR>
> (lol).  There are just some sophonts that one does NOT want anywhere near<BR>
> you when you are handcuffed.<BR>
<BR>
Why? Given her track record with weapons and other equipment, she'd<BR>
never hurt you unintentionally. And if she wanted to hurt you, do you<BR>
think anything short of moving to the Zhodani Consulate would save you?<BR>
<eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:45:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: TML Landgrab: Esalin (gravity)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>   Low G is also bad for imported ground vehicles, as the traction is lower.<BR>
>   Its more difficult for them to accellerate, stop or to change direction.<BR>
<BR>
Also, the suspension of wheeled/tracked vehicles will require major<BR>
adjustmemts. That's because the "frequency" at which the vehicle<BR>
"bounces" vertically is dependent on the local gravity field.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 01:40:54 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 11:51 -0400 8/7/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
>> > Unfortunately, both the "U.S. - IAEA Safeguards Agreement" and the<BR>
>> > "Nuclear Non-proliferation Act of 1978" prohibit exactly the kind<BR>
>> > of tranfer you discuss. :^(<BR>
>><BR>
>>Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
><BR>
> Why do you want a Eurofighter?<BR>
<BR>
The *submarine*....<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:34:04 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
At 09:01 PM 07/13/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>Do not assist the Evil Tod.  He's evil enough as it is!<BR>
>><BR>
>>Red<BR>
>>(in e-mail address hell)<BR>
><BR>
>As if you will be able to remember any of this AFTER the Evil Tod uses the <BR>
>stuff on us????<BR>
<BR>
Aw man, now you've gone and done it!  I don't even *know* Tod and now that <BR>
you've invoked the name of "Evil Tod", I picture him as John Lovitz's <BR>
character, Todd, from "Mom and Dad Save the World"...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:41:23 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: TML Landgrab: Esalin <BR>
<BR>
Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
> Thus, I would say that the starport is in the Zhodani zone, but<BR>
> the treaty allows free access to the starport by all parties.<BR>
> In addition to providing a neutral meeting place for the<BR>
> Imperium and the perfidious Zhodani,<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
Esalin is now starting to sound a bit  like  Lebanon  (and  other<BR>
nearby areas) under Isreali control ...  but  with  the  Isrealis<BR>
being the turban wearers.  The Zhodani trying to gain local peace<BR>
and stability  by  returning  *some*  self-determination  to  the<BR>
preveous inhabitants (the Palast^H^H^H^H^H^HEasalinese).<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:09:57 -0700<BR>
From: Jim Cooper <tloql@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
John Wood wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> FAR FRONTIERS SECTOR:<BR>
> I know the UWPs have been published; does the data really not exist on<BR>
> the web somewhere?<BR>
<BR>
I believe Gypsy Comet has the files or the knowledge as to where they are. I<BR>
would really like to see them all in one place.<BR>
<BR>
> FILLING IN THE GAPS:<BR>
> I am generating  Theron (g5) from the dot maps in _Solomani & Aslan<BR>
> using them for world positions, creating  political boundaries where<BR>
> plausible and in conjunction with other information gatheredfor the<BR>
> surrounding sectors. I have used the partial UWPs found and am studying it<BR>
> for a fun place to adventure.<BR>
<BR>
Above liberally snipped to fit the answer.<BR>
<BR>
Jim C<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 14 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2762<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
(OT) The X-Men film<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
Rumors<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
Re: Striker resources sought<BR>
Re: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
[S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:52:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
<BR>
On 13 Jul 00, at 7:11, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Note the discrepency: 18 kg vs. an actual mass of 3.86kg. Am I missing<BR>
> something? An propellant volume is way off in FFS2.  I note that FFS2<BR>
> indicates a case volume of 8555mm3, for a minimum case length of 202mm!<BR>
<BR>
Set the case style from straight to necked, you'll find the case length drops <BR>
to a much more reasonable 50.59mm. This will bring the gun's weight down <BR>
to about 9kg (still way too high, but better).<BR>
> <BR>
> What gives?  Has anyone run a large number of actual weapons through FFS2 to<BR>
> see what the correlation is like.  All my experience so far seems to be that<BR>
> FFS2 is badly out of step with reality.<BR>
<BR>
FFS2 seems to have (and I must admit I've not checked it fully) a problem <BR>
with powerful CPR ammo.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew etc.<BR>
  Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
  Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
  Shotgun $100<BR>
  The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:31:41 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: (OT) The X-Men film<BR>
<BR>
Well, this is OT, but I know that there are Champions players here.<BR>
<BR>
I saw the new X-Men flick today.  Verdict:  see it, if things like this<BR>
appeal to you at all.  It's done well, and is basically faithful to the<BR>
source material, and really a pretty OK no-brainer.<BR>
<BR>
It has been quite a long time since I last played Champions.  I might be<BR>
doing it again soon, because now I know what it really looks like...<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:58:32 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
<BR>
Chris Thrash said (abd by so doing, beat me to the punch):<BR>
<BR>
> James writes for GURPS Traveller: he is co-author on John M. Ford's GT:<BR>
>  Starports, and has published 8 articles in JTAS since its resurrection<BR>
>  online. If that constitutes an attack on Traveller, we need many more of<BR>
>  the same. James Maliszewski has done more to "convince a larger audience<BR>
>  that Traveller is alive and well" than most, and he deserves better from<BR>
>  this forum.<BR>
<BR>
What he said.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:01:51 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Rumors<BR>
<BR>
> While your there could somebody with information regarding the possibility<BR>
>  of an officially sanctioned continuation of the TNE timeline surf over to<BR>
>  the rumor mill section. There are a cupula guys there that might find the<BR>
>  info usefull. I think the thread is headed T5 or somesuch.<BR>
<BR>
You guys don't want to hear my real feelings on rumors. Rumors killed GDW <BR>
more than any other single factor. Don't get me started . . .<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:07:28 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking about the "Darrian Empire," and something struck me: it<BR>
would, undoubtedly, include the Regina subsector, the location of<BR>
Grandfather's pocket universe.  Granted, the *construction* of pocket<BR>
universes would be beyond the Darrians' capabilities, but just *detecting*<BR>
a pocket universe shouldn't be nearly as difficult, and might be possible<BR>
at Tech Level 17, or perhaps 18.  So perhaps the "Darrian Empire" *knows*<BR>
that there's *something* lurking "in" the Regina subsector, but doesn't<BR>
know quite what to *do* about it, and is thus *very* nervous (there would,<BR>
undoubtedly, be plenty of scientists eager to knock on Grandfather's door<BR>
and introduce themselves, and just as many military types who look over<BR>
the wreckage left behind by the Grandfather's war, worry, and advise<BR>
keeping as much of the region interdicted as possible).<BR>
<BR>
And just how grouchy *is* Grandfather these days?<BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:14:10 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy<BR>
<BR>
SD Mooney writes:<BR>
<BR>
>Bearing in mind that a Darrian Society that hadn't encountered the Maghiz<BR>
>event would like have occupied the area that the STL(?) settlers from the<BR>
>Sword Worlds had arrived at (Gram) in -399, a mere 8 parsecs from Darrian.<BR>
<BR>
The Sword Worlders used jump drive (Left the Old Earth Union in -420,<BR>
settled Gram in -399). The Darrian would certainly be around that area<BR>
(they had already explored space out to 20 parsecs around them in -924),<BR>
but propably mostly in the form of bases rather than settlements (this<BR>
is interpretative; I don't think the _Maghiz_ could have wrecked all the<BR>
other Darrian worlds for a 500 year duration unless the settlements there<BR>
were very dependent on support from Darrian).<BR>
<BR>
>Instead of empty space the Sword Worlders would have encountered a<BR>
>functional TL16/17 society...<BR>
<BR>
Let's say 17. The Darrians were borderline TL 17 in -924. Much higher TLs<BR>
are, of course, defendable, but with the sole justification that a<BR>
functioning, Ancients-tech-level society would be a dull place to game,<BR>
I suggest that we assume that the Darrians would have hit a "wall" in<BR>
scientific development around that point.<BR>
<BR>
>...which had absorbed Solomani before, and they would be at a severe TL<BR>
>advantage as this was the middle of the long night.<BR>
><BR>
>I suspect that it would be an interesting merger...<BR>
<BR>
Given that the Sword Worlders wanted to establish a place of their own, I<BR>
suspect that they would ask for, and recieve, a thorough overhaul of their<BR>
engines and then move to someplace far a way from the Darrians. Maybe in<BR>
Deneb Sector, but I suspect they would've headed further spinward. Deneb<BR>
would be more fun, though.<BR>
 <BR>
And Peter Newman writes:<BR>
<BR>
>This contradicts the canon evidence in the Darrians AM.<BR>
> <BR>
>"It took only a short time to go from the Solomani tech level_10_ to 16.<BR>
>It took even less time for the Darrians to go from their own tech level<BR>
>3 to the wholesale adoption of Solomani theories and engineering."<BR>
>[AM 8 Darrians p 10]<BR>
> <BR>
>The terrans were indeed TL 12 during the Rule of Man. However the Rule of<BR>
>Man "collapsed in -1776" [op cit p 9]. <BR>
<BR>
That is an arbitrary date chosen because of a specific historical event<BR>
unrelated to tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
>The Itzin fleet which colonized Darrian did not set out until -1520 [op <BR>
>cit] and reached Darrian in -1511. Canonically the fleet, which hailed<BR>
>from Dingir in the SOlomani Rim, was TL 10. <BR>
<BR>
I wonder if that's even possible. That would make the Itzin fleet jump-1<BR>
and there is, IIRC, about 270 parsecs from Dingir to Darrian in a straight<BR>
line (or rather, two straight lines as they would have to make a dogleg<BR>
through Vland). At an average of 10 days a jump it would take 2700 days or<BR>
about 7.4 year. That leaves them about two years to account for detours and<BR>
lay-overs (nine annual maintenances required (another 18 weeks minimum) and<BR>
what are the odds that they would find TL 10 planets spaced exactly to fit<BR>
in with their maintenance schedule?) and the time they spend exploring in<BR>
the Marches before finding the Darrians. <BR>
<BR>
I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it sure isn't likely. Jump-2<BR>
would be much better. Ah well...<BR>
<BR>
>The fleet may have been aware that TL 11 & 12 were possible but they could<BR>
>not build them or else they would have been Tl 11 or 12 not merely Tl 10.<BR>
<BR>
That does not follow. The Itzin fleet was a civilian project. Budgetary<BR>
considerations may have made them buy obsolete ships. But whether or not<BR>
Dingir had fallen to TL 10 at the time, the TL 12 knowledge would still<BR>
be available and an emigrant fleet would surely have carried a complete<BR>
technological database with them.<BR>
<BR>
>In general the Darrians are portrayed as a remarkably rationalistic<BR>
>people. The Darrians had no nearby neighbors to stop them. I would<BR>
>say that barring the Magiz the Darrian Empire would, at the least,<BR>
>occupy most of the Domain of Deneb (say The Spinward Marches, Deneb,<BR>
>Trojan Reach and the coreward part of Reft Sector.) They might have<BR>
>expanded farther into say Corridor, rimward Provence, Tuglikki, and<BR>
>Gvurrdon Sectors and into  parts of Foreven and the Beyond.<BR>
<BR>
The Darrians are also portrayed as not at all expansionistic and as<BR>
practicing very severe population control from way back in their history<BR>
(The orchards are said to be able to feed a million apiece, yet the<BR>
Darrians stayed at a population of 100,000 in each for many thousands of<BR>
years). They did grow a little, but I would expect the Darrians to stay<BR>
fairly small.<BR>
<BR>
>Given that jump drives of Tl 17 or greater use less fuel and that anti<BR>
>matter power plants are small Darrian ships of TL 20 or so would not<BR>
>have been significantly hindered by the Great Rift since they would have<BR>
>been able to easily manage 2 consecutive jump 6's.<BR>
<BR>
Undoubtedly. And they would go. But they wouldn't go as conquerors and<BR>
settlers. They would go as explorers and teachers. I would expect them<BR>
to freely hand out technological information for a long time. Eventually<BR>
some benefactee would abuse their trust and teach them caution, but by<BR>
then the Zhodani and quite a few pocket empires would have a tremendous<BR>
technological leg up. <BR>
<BR>
>The Aslan did not cross the Great Rift until -1044 and did not reach the<BR>
>area of Darrian until the eve of the First Frontier War. If not for the<BR>
>Magiz the coreward Aslan would still be in the Riftspan Reaches sector. <BR>
<BR>
Or maybe they would have received jump-5 or jump-6 capability from the<BR>
Darrians and be spread out even more.<BR>
<BR>
>Nor were the Imperial in the area until much later.<BR>
<BR>
But the Vilani and the Syleans could have been visited by Darrians around<BR>
- -500 and be expanding like crazy several centuries ahead of schedule.<BR>
<BR>
>While some Zhodani  traders reached as far as Corridor as early as -2,000<BR>
>the Consulate itself showed little interest in expanding into this area. <BR>
<BR>
No, but they would have encountered the Darrians (or vice versa) quite<BR>
soon after -900. It was pure dumb luck that the Darrians and the Zhodani<BR>
didn't meet before the _Maghiz_.<BR>
<BR>
>Nor did the Vargr's move very far into the Spinward Marches even absent<BR>
>the Imperium to keep them out. AM 3 Vargr establishes that the Vargr were<BR>
>in Gvurrdon Sector around -2,800 but did not move into the Marches.<BR>
<BR>
True. The Vargr of Gvurrdon must have suffered their own version of a<BR>
collapse and a Long Night. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:40:27 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:49:50 -0400<BR>
> From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
> Subject: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
> <BR>
> Okay. So I finally picked up Gurps Traveller (2nd Ed) from my FLGS.<BR>
> <BR>
> And I have a question regarding bay weapons. Bays are listed as requiring<BR>
> 10 internal spaces. On the theory that 1 space = 1 CT ton shouldn't that be<BR>
> 100 spaces? Or have the powers that be decided to reduce the space<BR>
> requirements for bay weapons?<BR>
<BR>
When he created the modular ship design system, David Pulver decided that<BR>
bay weapons in Traveller were best represented by Honking Big Turrets. The<BR>
ten internal spaces are the "rotation space" required for turrets in GURPS<BR>
Vehicles 2d Ed (upon which the MSDS is based). The bay weapons themselves<BR>
are housed in 100-ton turrets external to the main hull. Note also that GT<BR>
turrets are 3 tons external to the main hull, plus one internal space for<BR>
rotation space, crew workstation, etc.<BR>
<BR>
If you prefer, disregard the Honking Big Turrets altogether and simply<BR>
install the bay weapons in the main hull using the "hull-mounted weapon"<BR>
rule. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:45:05 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/14/00 4:05 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Steve used to attend PorSFiS (Portland Science Fiction Society)<BR>
> meetings and he was seriously odd even then. :-)<BR>
> <BR>
> One of his more amusing "talks" was about writing for cartoons to get<BR>
> enough money to live on while working on his books. Apparently a lot of<BR>
> the writers try to "sneak in" little things that aren't "appropriate"<BR>
> but aren't likely to be caught either.<BR>
> <BR>
> I also recall his comments about a Conan novel he wrote. Just to keep<BR>
> from being bored to death, he included a sub-plot element with there<BR>
> never being any meat available when Conan reached an inn or whatever.<BR>
> "Very sorry, but we just sold the last bit. We do have some nice fish...."<BR>
> <BR>
> He said his private "working title" for the book was "Conan the<BR>
> Vegetarian". <BR>
> <BR>
> If anybody recognizes the book from that description, let me know what<BR>
> the title is, Apparently he wrote several Conan books, and I haven't<BR>
> found *that* one yet.<BR>
<BR>
That is Steve Perry you are talking about, not Steve Barnes.  Yes, a very<BR>
cool individual.  We helped him with one of his novels ("Black Steel") and<BR>
he gave us a little nod in the acknowledgements.  Quite a gentleman.<BR>
<BR>
He's written a few "Batman" episodes, look for ones featuring martial arts.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:51:56 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
<BR>
>> <BR>
>> What gives?  Has anyone run a large number of actual weapons through FFS2 to<BR>
>> see what the correlation is like.  All my experience so far seems to be that<BR>
>> FFS2 is badly out of step with reality.<BR>
> <BR>
> FFS2 seems to have (and I must admit I've not checked it fully) a problem<BR>
> with powerful CPR ammo.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I started running the numbers against 'common' rifles just for yucks.  M16,<BR>
the minimum case length comes out 46mm.  In fact the case length for .223 is<BR>
45mm (hence 5.56x45).  .308 is better (data for FN-FAL) although again, case<BR>
dimensions for minimum length were on the high end.<BR>
<BR>
At the very least, the data needs to be reviewed, and powder volume needs to<BR>
be adjusted.  Weapons weight are also off, as you noted, and time you stray<BR>
too far from .223/.308.  I'll post the results of my study if anyone is<BR>
interested.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:52:40 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, SD Mooney wrote:<BR>
> Bearing in mind that a Darrian Society that hadn't encountered the <BR>
> Maghiz event would like have occupied the area that the STL(?) <BR>
> settlers from the Sword Worlds had arrived at (Gram) in -399, a mere <BR>
> 8 parsecs from Darrian. Instead of empty space the Swordworlders <BR>
> would have encountered a functional TL16/17 society which had <BR>
> absorbed Solomani before, and they would be at a severe TL advantage <BR>
> as this was the middle of the long night.<BR>
> <BR>
> I suspect that it would be an interesting merger...<BR>
<BR>
Indeed.  <BR>
The Darrians always struck me as a little bit...soft.  Highly intelligent<BR>
and capable, but not particularly driven.  The founders of the Sword<BR>
Worlds, on the other hand, went to a *lot* of trouble to pursue *their*<BR>
collective aspirations.  Would they have happily allowed themselves to be<BR>
assimilated by Darrian society?  No!  Despite their pugnacious tendencies,<BR>
I can't see them *fighting* the Darrians, but I strongly suspect they<BR>
would do whatever they could to enter Darrian society on *their own*<BR>
terms.  I can easily see them retaining a sense of their own identity by<BR>
maintaining family traditions, by teaching their children Terran<BR>
languages, and by "helping out" other "Sword Worlders" through a sort of<BR>
"old boys network." I see them becoming a vocal, (sometimes) cohesive, and<BR>
fairly influential minority within the "Darrian Empire", and positively<BR>
*dominant* in certain fields (notably its military forces and, to a lesser<BR>
degree, its equivalent of the scout service).  Semi-assimilated "Sword<BR>
Worlders" might have provided much of the "Darrian Empire's" expansionism,<BR>
and given it a somewhat harder edge than the Darrians themselves could<BR>
have provided...<BR>
<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:17:34 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
>                                               ...Semi-assimilated <BR>
> "Sword Worlders" might have provided much of the "Darrian Empire's"<BR>
> expansionism, and given it a somewhat harder edge than the Darrians<BR>
> themselves could have provided...<BR>
<BR>
I feel a bit silly quoting myself, but... <BR>
Which brings up an interesting possibility: a struggle between two mongrel<BR>
human societies (Darrian/Solomani vs. Vilani/Solomani), circa 200 or so,<BR>
in the general vicinity of the Corridor sector. It would be a *strange*<BR>
struggle.  The Darrians probably wouldn't have a proper "navy," since they<BR>
wouldn't have had any really significant external adversaries up to this<BR>
point, but their equivalent of "the coast guard" or "the search-and-rescue<BR>
patrol" would have (at least) Tech Level 16 equipment, and might be a<BR>
match for the young Third Imperium's Tech Level 12 or 13 fleets...<BR>
<BR>
                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:43:36 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>I expect that the urine container will have a soft, flexible cover,<BR>
>>>somewhere between felt and terrycloth. This will be a specially<BR>
>>>engineered "fabric" that wicks liquids in only one direction. Inward.<BR>
>>>So whatever species you are, you hold it up against the opening of the<BR>
>>>urethra (or equivalent) and the liquid goes thru or is absorbed.<BR>
>>I was thinking more of a container with a soft, flexible opening<BR>
>>that could be opened while against the body.<BR>
>The problem is that the stream will either be too slow, and give you a<BR>
>film or large droplet of urine attached to you by surface tension<BR>
>(*especially* on women). Or it'll be moving fast enough that when it<BR>
>hits the container it'll *splash*, leaving lots of drops of various<BR>
>sizes floating around inside. And when you pull the cantainer back from<BR>
>the body, the drops won't follow the container. <BR>
>Open containers for liquid just don't work in free fall. <BR>
<BR>
	When I wrote that the container could be opened while against the<BR>
	body, I took it for granted that you would understand that it could<BR>
	then be closed while against the body.<BR>
<BR>
>>The towelettes could be handy.  Scented, perhaps.<BR>
>NO!!!!!!! <shudder><BR>
>You never use scented *anything* in a sealed environment. Among other<BR>
>things, it shortens the life of the activated charcoal air filter.<BR>
>Also, such volatiles quickly build up to intolerable levels without<BR>
>"open air" (or a ships heavy duty life support filters).<BR>
>In fact, the alcohol that some (many?) of the towellettes use is a<BR>
>problem as well.<BR>
<BR>
	True, although sufficiently mild scents might still be practical.<BR>
<BR>
<snipped><BR>
>>I don't know how often the colour is going to be terribly helpful.<BR>
>>White or highly reflective would seem to be the best choices.<BR>
>You may be searching inside the ship for these things. They may also<BR>
>get used in emergencies on vacuum worlds.<BR>
<BR>
	"Jim, would you check in that 3 x 3 x 2.25 m stateroom for any<BR>
	1 m diameter x 2 m long silver pods.  Look carefully, and make<BR>
	sure that you don't miss any!"<BR>
<BR>
	I suspect that on a vacuum world a reflective surface would be<BR>
	as easy to spot as a red one.  In any event, I see these things<BR>
	as only being used when accompanied by trained personel in vacc<BR>
	suits.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:49:14 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker resources sought<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Do you know<BR>
> of any compendium on the internet of modern military<BR>
> vehicles that gives dimensions, weight, land and<BR>
> cross-country speed, and weapons and equipment?  I can do a<BR>
> rough job of working backwards to develop Striker<BR>
> statistics from real world information.<BR>
<BR>
A good online resource is at www.fas.org<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:01:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "William 'Commander X' Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 02:49:50 -0400<BR>
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
>Subject: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
<BR>
>Okay. So I finally picked up Gurps Traveller (2nd Ed) from my FLGS.<BR>
<BR>
>And I have a question regarding bay weapons. Bays are listed as requiring<BR>
>10 internal spaces. On the theory that 1 space = 1 CT ton shouldn't that<BR>
be<BR>
>100 spaces? Or have the powers that be decided to reduce the space<BR>
>requirements for bay weapons?<BR>
<BR>
>Thanks for your kind attention to my no doubt horrendously silly<BR>
question,<BR>
<BR>
>Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
>"I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
>   I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
>   I came in here for the special offer<BR>
>   Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
<BR>
The reason to this is because the bays in the GT book are not what you<BR>
remember them to be.<BR>
GT uses what have become to be known as "Big Honkin Turrets" or BHT.  This<BR>
is quite confusing to anyone who has used Classic or High Guard<BR>
rules.  Basicaly the bay is a 50dt turret!  The 10dt/spaces it takes up in<BR>
the ship is for the mechanical bits and power couplings, the actual weapon<BR>
sits outside the ship.<BR>
There has been a heated debate some time ago about this<BR>
approach.  Personaly I don't like them.  Mostly because they screw with<BR>
the jump volume requirements.  That 1000dt ship with the bay weapon is<BR>
realy 1050dt with respect to the j-drive.  On larger ships the<BR>
calcualtions can get messy.  The bay weapon is also a huge target on the<BR>
surface of the ship, it even has its own HP's like a turret.  <BR>
<BR>
The compromise then was to have both kinds of bay, the internal bay which<BR>
takes up all its volume (50dt) in the ship and the BHT style bays.  <BR>
<BR>
If you subscribe to the online version of JTAS (jtas.sjgames.com), there<BR>
is an article done by Chris Thrash which expands on the design rules in<BR>
GT.  I believe that the bay question is addressed therein.  It has the<BR>
100dt bays too.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
\\    //  Commander X<BR>
 \\  //   CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC<BR>
  T E K   Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research<BR>
 //  \\   http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek<BR>
//    \\  0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:05:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
Jim Cooper writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> I believe Gypsy Comet has the files or the knowledge as to where they are.<BR>
> I would really like to see them all in one place.<BR>
<BR>
Last I know, he claimed to have them 'on a disk somewhere'.  I suspect finding them would have required digging.  I would like to have it, though.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:10:42 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
<BR>
Brian Caball writes:<BR>
> I would like to take this opertunity to sing the praises of<BR>
> maps.grandsurvey.com. I have printed out 14 of the PDF sector files,<BR>
> enlarged them to A3, and have constructed a breathtaking wall map (which<BR>
> I am currently colouring in) :-><BR>
> <BR>
> However.... where can I get the key to the aliance codes? I've seen the<BR>
> chart in Vilani and Vargr, but regretfully I don't own a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Heh.  I basically took it out of sources, and didn't always check the codes.  Try http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/General/allegiance_codes.1.txt or<BR>
http://members.nova.org/~sol/core/alliegence.htm <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:15:05 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> I was thinking about the "Darrian Empire," and something struck me: it<BR>
> would, undoubtedly, include the Regina subsector, the location of<BR>
> Grandfather's pocket universe.  Granted, the *construction* of pocket<BR>
> universes would be beyond the Darrians' capabilities, but just *detecting*<BR>
> a pocket universe shouldn't be nearly as difficult, and might be possible<BR>
> at Tech Level 17, or perhaps 18.  So perhaps the "Darrian Empire" *knows*<BR>
> that there's *something* lurking "in" the Regina subsector, but doesn't<BR>
> know quite what to *do* about it, and is thus *very* nervous.<BR>
<BR>
Initially, they'd probably know there was _some_ sort of anomaly at Regina, but not what.  Being scientific types, they'd apply the normal scientific method: when it doubt, poke at it and see what happens.<BR>
<BR>
This might be bad for the darrian empire, but oh well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:18:34 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
At 09:15 AM 07/14/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>John P. Raynor writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I was thinking about the "Darrian Empire," and something struck me: it<BR>
> > would, undoubtedly, include the Regina subsector, the location of<BR>
> > Grandfather's pocket universe.  Granted, the *construction* of pocket<BR>
> > universes would be beyond the Darrians' capabilities, but just *detecting*<BR>
> > a pocket universe shouldn't be nearly as difficult, and might be possible<BR>
> > at Tech Level 17, or perhaps 18.  So perhaps the "Darrian Empire" *knows*<BR>
> > that there's *something* lurking "in" the Regina subsector, but doesn't<BR>
> > know quite what to *do* about it, and is thus *very* nervous.<BR>
><BR>
>Initially, they'd probably know there was _some_ sort of anomaly at <BR>
>Regina, but not what.  Being scientific types, they'd apply the normal <BR>
>scientific method: when it doubt, poke at it and see what happens.<BR>
><BR>
>This might be bad for the darrian empire, but oh well.<BR>
<BR>
Maybe they did anf the Maghiz was the punishment...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:21:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Llleeeeet's not go there, eh?<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 3:15 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > In a message dated 7/12/00 10:25:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
> > owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > << From: Irishdoh@aol.com<BR>
> >  Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD >><BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Ummmm....guys?  Is everyone but me blissfully unaware of <BR>
> what B&D means? <BR>
> >  <BR>
> > That and Ditzie do NOT go together....  :)<BR>
> <BR>
> But "BD" <> "B&D". <BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, B&D would be a not *too* dangerous outlet for any "urges"<BR>
> Mistress Ditzhammer might have. I'm sure she'd check the limits of the<BR>
> human body as closely as she does those of any component in the weapons<BR>
> she designs. <BR>
> <BR>
> Besides, good bondage devices are probably required to get the leeegals<BR>
> to stick around to view the tests...<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:59:07<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2761<BR>
<BR>
At 08:58 AM 7/14/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>Chris Thrash said (abd by so doing, beat me to the punch):<BR>
><BR>
>> James writes for GURPS Traveller: he is co-author on John M. Ford's GT:<BR>
>>  Starports, and has published 8 articles in JTAS since its resurrection<BR>
>>  online. If that constitutes an attack on Traveller, we need many more of<BR>
>>  the same. James Maliszewski has done more to "convince a larger audience<BR>
>>  that Traveller is alive and well" than most, and he deserves better from<BR>
>>  this forum.<BR>
><BR>
>What he said.<BR>
<BR>
Mr. Maliszewski was the playtest coordinator for Ground Forces, and was<BR>
extremely helpful in getting me through what was an very new experience.<BR>
<BR>
For those of you still revealing in innocence, a GURPS playtest is like<BR>
throwing your first-born to the wolves, and then having to smile when they<BR>
complain about the meat being to tough.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:23:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
<BR>
This strikes me as the sort of thing Ditizie would like....<BR>
<BR>
[re-mailed to you from mail]<BR>
[the original seemed to come from S1889@egroups.com]<BR>
<BR>
Now here is the musical instrument for every Villian!<BR>
This thing gives a whole new dimension to the phrase "heavy metal"!<BR>
<BR>
   Large Hot Pipe Organ<BR>
   http://www.lhpo.org/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here's a description from the top of the web page:<BR>
<BR>
   The Large Hot Pipe Organ is the world's only MIDI controlled,<BR>
   propane powered explosion organ.  The LHPO's pyro-acoustic<BR>
   explodo-rhythmations will throbbatize your earholes and dance-ify<BR>
   your booty and make you realize what "Industrial Music" REALLY means!<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, they seem to be based in Europe, so we can't go see it<BR>
up close and personal.<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!<BR>
1. Fill in the brief application<BR>
2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds<BR>
3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR<BR>
http://click.egroups.com/1/6630/4/_/409960/_/963539911/<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2762<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2763</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/14/00 12:09:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 14 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2763<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Astronomical Website<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:31:57 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> My God, Leonard, I thought I was the last person on Earth to still<BR>
> have a circular slide rule!<BR>
<BR>
It's one of the cheapie plastic ones with the slide out tables of<BR>
conversion factors. <BR>
<BR>
I'd like to have a *real* one.<BR>
<BR>
> You must be about as old as me (46) to<BR>
> have one of those - do you have one of the twisting, sliding 'staff'<BR>
> rules as well (mine is an old Sinclair model and great for calculating<BR>
> quick orbits in Traveller, though - sad to say - I mostly use my<BR>
> Sinclair Programmable Calculator for that. Remember them?)<BR>
<BR>
Never seen a "staff" rule. Not sure what one would look like.<BR>
<BR>
And the Sinclair doesn't ring any bells. <BR>
<BR>
I *have* used one of the 30 pound (Burroughs?) calculators. The ones<BR>
with ten columns of buttons numbered 0-9, and a 10 digit and 20 digit<BR>
"odometer" type display. <BR>
<BR>
I also had an instructor back in 1980 who had a pocket sized mechanical<BR>
calculator. Resembled a fishing reel (ie a cylinder about the same<BR>
size, with the same sort of "crank").<BR>
<BR>
I'd love to have one of the 6-foot slide rules they hung at the front<BR>
of the classroom for teaching how to use one. I used to joke with some<BR>
friends about adding a precision vernier type "drive" to one to make a<BR>
"high accuracy" slide rule. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:41:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>The problem is that the stream will either be too slow, and give you a<BR>
>>film or large droplet of urine attached to you by surface tension<BR>
>>(*especially* on women). Or it'll be moving fast enough that when it<BR>
>>hits the container it'll *splash*, leaving lots of drops of various<BR>
>>sizes floating around inside. And when you pull the cantainer back from<BR>
>>the body, the drops won't follow the container. <BR>
>>Open containers for liquid just don't work in free fall. <BR>
><BR>
>         When I wrote that the container could be opened while against the<BR>
>         body, I took it for granted that you would understand that it could<BR>
>         then be closed while against the body.<BR>
<BR>
You'd still have some hassles with the (rather large) amount of fluid<BR>
that might be clinging to the body. I suspect the absorbent cover (or<BR>
even fill) might be a *much* easier design.<BR>
<BR>
>>>I don't know how often the colour is going to be terribly helpful.<BR>
>>>White or highly reflective would seem to be the best choices.<BR>
>>You may be searching inside the ship for these things. They may also<BR>
>>get used in emergencies on vacuum worlds.<BR>
><BR>
>         "Jim, would you check in that 3 x 3 x 2.25 m stateroom for any<BR>
>         1 m diameter x 2 m long silver pods.  Look carefully, and make<BR>
>         sure that you don't miss any!"<BR>
<BR>
Passengers will get into the damned places, crew will get caught<BR>
without a vacc suit and have to use a ball, and the ship may be<BR>
somewhat "re-arranged".<BR>
<BR>
Also, they may no longer be *in* the ship. After all, the radios we've<BR>
been discussing, as well as some of the coatings, etc aren't useful<BR>
inside the ship. <BR>
<BR>
>         I suspect that on a vacuum world a reflective surface would be<BR>
>         as easy to spot as a red one.<BR>
<BR>
Frozen iceball. Europa, for example.<BR>
<BR>
> In any event, I see these things<BR>
>         as only being used when accompanied by trained personel in vacc<BR>
>         suits.<BR>
<BR>
That's the ideal. Reality may fall a bit short. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:27:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Brave, brave Sir Robin (was: Re: Ditzie)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> That is Steve Perry you are talking about, not Steve Barnes.  Yes, a very<BR>
> cool individual.  We helped him with one of his novels ("Black Steel") and<BR>
> he gave us a little nod in the acknowledgements.  Quite a gentleman.<BR>
<BR>
Arrggghhh! That's what I get for answering mail while half asleep.<BR>
<BR>
And yes, he's a fun person too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:12:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, B&D would be a not *too* dangerous outlet for any "urges"<BR>
>Mistress Ditzhammer might have. I'm sure she'd check the limits of the<BR>
>human body as closely as she does those of any component in the weapons<BR>
>she designs.<BR>
><BR>
>Besides, good bondage devices are probably required to get the leeegals<BR>
>to stick around to view the tests...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	OK..but given the recoil values of some of their weapons, I have the<BR>
sinking feeling that 'user pain tolerance' is not very high on her list of<BR>
design priorities.  Under those circumstances, I would suggest choosing a<BR>
'safe word' that is both easy to say and and instinctively remembered.<BR>
Something like "AAAARRRRUGGGGHHH!<gurgle>"<BR>
	Hmmmm..."Mistress Ditzhammer"... Jesse, if you feel a drawing coming on, I<BR>
wanna see  ;o)<BR>
<BR>
	It's getting mighty crowded down here in the gutter,<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, (who can't BELIEVE that this is actually becoming a discussion<BR>
thread!)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just tell me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:18:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
At 8:47 -0400 14/7/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> >>Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
> > Why do you want a Eurofighter?<BR>
>The *submarine*....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
I guessed it wasn't your own personal tropical storm ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:14:13 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
At 22:32 -0400 13/7/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> > Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, when it did,<BR>
> > stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A Coincidence? I think<BR>
> > not....<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
><BR>
>Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
<BR>
Nooooo - it's man sized....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:22:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Astronomical Website<BR>
<BR>
Have a look at<BR>
<BR>
http://www.heavens-above.com/<BR>
<BR>
which has loads of star charts and can generate satellite tracks <BR>
(including MIR and the ISS) for specific locations. Quite a cool <BR>
resource if you like looking at the stars.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:39:11 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Initially, they'd probably know there was _some_ sort of anomaly at <BR>
> >Regina, but not what.  Being scientific types, they'd apply the normal <BR>
> >scientific method: when it doubt, poke at it and see what happens.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >This might be bad for the darrian empire, but oh well.<BR>
><BR>
> Maybe they did anf the Maghiz was the punishment...<BR>
<BR>
"...he left a portal open at Algine for millenia."  Grandfather didn't<BR>
close that one until Algine was colonized in -1000 or so, right?  The<BR>
key words here being, "or so".  :) <BR>
<BR>
Conspiracy theorists might also point fingers at the Zhodani, who were<BR>
around before the Maghiz but *supposedly* didn't drop by.  Perhaps there<BR>
is a loonie fringe that claims the Zhodani loosed the Maghiz on the <BR>
Darrians (despite all the sensible arguments why this is totally bogus).<BR>
<BR>
  -- Steve Bonneville<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 10:58:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> It's one of the cheapie plastic ones with the slide out tables of<BR>
> conversion factors.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd like to have a *real* one.<BR>
<BR>
High quality circular rules seem to be quite rare.  I just ordered a 'metric<BR>
marvel' from sphere research (Chemical engineering model).  They're actually<BR>
quicker for some tasks than an electronic model.  I also use a 'mildot<BR>
master', a sort of slide rule for calculating range and holdover with a<BR>
mildot reticule scope.  Very cool.<BR>
<BR>
For slide rule aficionados, check out Sphere research's homepage (do a<BR>
search for slide rules).  For the mildot master, go to<BR>
http://www.rifleswcopes.com.<BR>
><BR>
> > You must be about as old as me (46) to<BR>
> > have one of those - do you have one of the twisting, sliding 'staff'<BR>
> > rules as well (mine is an old Sinclair model and great for calculating<BR>
> > quick orbits in Traveller, though - sad to say - I mostly use my<BR>
> > Sinclair Programmable Calculator for that. Remember them?)<BR>
><BR>
> Never seen a "staff" rule. Not sure what one would look like.<BR>
<BR>
Staff or cylindrical rules are really rare.  I've only seen one, and it was<BR>
very nicely made (I think the asking price was around $500-ouch).  I've also<BR>
seen some circular rules that looked like pocket watches--again, rare but<BR>
cool.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> And the Sinclair doesn't ring any bells.<BR>
><BR>
> I *have* used one of the 30 pound (Burroughs?) calculators. The ones<BR>
> with ten columns of buttons numbered 0-9, and a 10 digit and 20 digit<BR>
> "odometer" type display.<BR>
><BR>
> I also had an instructor back in 1980 who had a pocket sized mechanical<BR>
> calculator. Resembled a fishing reel (ie a cylinder about the same<BR>
> size, with the same sort of "crank").<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I recall my PChem prof waxing nostalgic about calculating atomic orbits<BR>
using mechanical calculators.  It took weeks.  The same for artillery tables<BR>
in WWII.  The original computers were (mostly women) operators punching<BR>
numbers into mechanical calculators to build firing solution table.<BR>
<BR>
And of course, us old timers remember log tables...<BR>
<BR>
"back in my day, we didn't need any of these fancy zeros and such" :)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:01:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Now here is the musical instrument for every Villian!<BR>
> This thing gives a whole new dimension to the phrase "heavy metal"!<BR>
> <BR>
>    Large Hot Pipe Organ<BR>
>    http://www.lhpo.org/<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Here's a description from the top of the web page:<BR>
> <BR>
>    The Large Hot Pipe Organ is the world's only MIDI controlled,<BR>
>    propane powered explosion organ.  The LHPO's pyro-acoustic<BR>
>    explodo-rhythmations will throbbatize your earholes and dance-ify<BR>
>    your booty and make you realize what "Industrial Music" REALLY means!<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Leonard.<BR>
<BR>
Just the think for my rockin' trav metal band "Rabid Sphincter"<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:02:28 -0500<BR>
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
> From: SD Mooney [mailto:dom@cybergoths.u-net.com]<BR>
> <BR>
> At 22:32 -0400 13/7/00, "Matthew Bond" <BR>
> <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> > > Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, <BR>
> when it did,<BR>
> > > stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A <BR>
> Coincidence? I think<BR>
> > > not....<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
> <BR>
> Nooooo - it's man sized....<BR>
<BR>
Die Fledermaus?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I've alwasy wanted to run a campaign of High-Tech 'superheroes' (say TL12) on a low tech (TL8) world.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
vargr1                                                   UPP-8D9B85<BR>
- ---------------------------- Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina.<BR>
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ                vargr1@jcn1*com<BR>
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with."      dmoody@bridge*com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:05:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:19 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> At 8:47 -0400 14/7/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > >>Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
> > > Why do you want a Eurofighter?<BR>
> >The *submarine*....<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> <grin><BR>
><BR>
> I guessed it wasn't your own personal tropical storm ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> Dom<BR>
<BR>
The way the Russians are selling every piece of their military eqipment that<BR>
isn't nailed down, you could probably get a good deal.  And the Typhoon does<BR>
have it's own sauna, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:48:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: GrandSurvey aliance codes<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> However.... where can I get the key to the aliance codes? I've seen the<BR>
> chart in Vilani and Vargr, but regretfully I don't own a copy.<BR>
<BR>
Here's what I have handy (from a table I Xeroxed out of Second Survey):<BR>
<BR>
Cs	client state of the Imperium<BR>
Da	Darrian Confederation (Spinward Marches)<BR>
Dr	Droyne<BR>
Fa	Federation of Arden (Spinward Marches)<BR>
Im	Imperium<BR>
Na	non-aligned<BR>
Sw	Sword Worlds (Spinward Marches)<BR>
Va	Vargr<BR>
Zh	Zhodani Consulate<BR>
<BR>
And my copy of TNE adds:<BR>
<BR>
RC	Reformation Coalition<BR>
Wi	Wilds<BR>
<BR>
Alien Module 6: Solomani adds:<BR>
<BR>
So	Solomani<BR>
Ve	Vegan<BR>
<BR>
Atlas of the Imperium adds:<BR>
<BR>
SY	Sylean Federation<BR>
LA	League of Antares<BR>
HV	Hiver<BR>
AS	Aslan Hierate<BR>
HL	Hegemony of Lorean<BR>
JR	Julian Protectorate<BR>
<BR>
Alien Module 3: Vargr adds (for Gvurrdon sector):<BR>
<BR>
Na	non-aligned (human)<BR>
Va	Vargr not otherwise contained in an interstellar government)<BR>
Vd	Dzen Aeng Kho (Society of Equals)<BR>
Ve	Ekhelle Ksafi (40th Squadron)<BR>
Vg	Gaerr Thue (Pact of Gaerr)<BR>
Vk 	Kedzudh Aeng (Commonality of Kedzudh)<BR>
Vn	Rukh Aegz (Worlds of Leader Rukh)<BR>
Vp	Thirz Uerra (Thirz Empire)<BR>
Vr	Gnoerrgh Rukh Lloell (Anti-Rukh Coalition)<BR>
Vs	Saeknouth Igz (Saeknouth Dependency)<BR>
Vt	Thoengling Raghz (Thoengling Emipre)<BR>
Vu	Urukhu (Nation of Urukhu)<BR>
<BR>
Vilani & Vargr (note that several codes conflict with the older Vargr<BR>
module! I've marked those with an asterisk):<BR>
<BR>
Sw	Sworld Worlds Confederation<BR>
SW	Sworld Worlds Union<BR>
Dd	Domain of Deneb (Norris)<BR>
Li	Lucan's Imperium<BR>
Vb	Baknae Alliance<BR>
Vc	*Anti-Rukh Coalition<BR>
Vd*	Democracy of Greats<BR>
Ve*	Empire of Varroerth<BR>
Vf	Dzarrgh Federate<BR>
Vg*	Glory of Taarskoerzn<BR>
Vh	Irrgh Manifest<BR>
Vi	Llaeghskath Interactate<BR>
Vj	Jihad of Faarzgaen<BR>
Vk	*Commonality of Kedzudh<BR>
Vl	Lair Protectorate<BR>
Vm      Members of Knaeleng<BR>
Vn*	Ngath Confederation<BR>
Vo	Opposition Alliance<BR>
Vp	Thirz Empire (matches old module!)<BR>
Vq	*Society of Equals<BR>
Vr*	*Worlds of Leader Rukh<BR>
Vs	Saeknouth Dependency (matches old module!)<BR>
Vt	Thoengling Emipre (matches old module!)<BR>
Vu*	United Followers of Augurgh<BR>
Vw	People of Wanz<BR>
Vx	Antares Pact<BR>
Vy	Yfagg Congress<BR>
Vz	Worlds of Master Zer<BR>
V1	First Fleet of Dzo<BR>
V2	Windhorn Pact of Two<BR>
V3	Thirs Empire of Gashikan<BR>
V4	*40th Squadron<BR>
V5	Ruler of Five<BR>
V6	Assemblage of 1116<BR>
V7	17th Disjuncture<BR>
V8	Council of the Four-pair<BR>
V9	Infinity League<BR>
V0	Akhorgh Seperate<BR>
VA	Alliance of Tju<BR>
VB	Brzeh Council<BR>
VC	Hezereak Connective<BR>
VD	Delegation of Targhae<BR>
VE	Agentes of Eloeghoe<BR>
VF	Far Stars Unamity<BR>
VG	Glorious Sons of Raek<BR>
VH	Tyryk Hegemony<BR>
VJ	Authority of Joekghr<BR>
VK	Koenotz Empire<BR>
VL	League Alliance<BR>
VM	Mazaroegh Dominion<BR>
VN	Drr'lana Network<BR>
VP	Kechk Pact<BR>
VQ	Union of Yoetyqq<BR>
VR	Kechk Reversion<BR>
VS	Jarrgh Subjugate<BR>
VT	Trae Aggregation<BR>
VU	Union of Seekers<BR>
VX	Vaoekghirkhr Exchange<BR>
VZ	Ruzz Confederation<BR>
<BR>
There are also several codes (Rv, for example on the map of Vland<BR>
sector that aren't defined anywhere I can find in the book!<BR>
<BR>
The MT Rebellion Sourcebook lists:<BR>
<BR>
An	Antares<BR>
Da	Daibei<BR>
Il	Illelish<BR>
Ma	Margaret<BR>
No	Norris<BR>
St	Strephon<BR>
Vl	Vland<BR>
<BR>
And theres's a Bw Border Worlds in the MT Imperial Encyclopedia.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:21:05 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> types:<BR>
<BR>
>Jim Cooper writes:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> I believe Gypsy Comet has the files or the knowledge as to where they are.<BR>
>> I would really like to see them all in one place.<BR>
><BR>
>Last I know, he claimed to have them 'on a disk somewhere'.  I suspect <BR>
finding >them would have required digging.  I would like to have it, though.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 The files in question do not appear to be on my hard drive, at least not <BR>
under an obvious name. More looking is called for...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:22:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
> Aw man, now you've gone and done it!  I don't even *know* Tod and<BR>
> now that<BR>
> you've invoked the name of "Evil Tod", I picture him as John Lovitz's<BR>
> character, Todd, from "Mom and Dad Save the World"...<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Ouch, that hurts.  But no comments about Terri Garr, since my wife reads the<BR>
list (Hi Cheryl).<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, I'm not evil.  I prefer the term 'differently moral'.<BR>
<BR>
OK, well I am evil if we go by D&D.  Reading the definition for alignments,<BR>
I pretty much fit Lawful Evil (geez, who writes this stuff?).  Give me the<BR>
dark universe any day.  It's more fun. Do you all want to game in a happy,<BR>
cooperative society where people discuss philosophy in their off hours?  Or<BR>
would you rather try your luck on my Regina up port "where the weak are<BR>
killed and eaten".<BR>
<BR>
How many travellers out there are running in future utopias anyway? Give me<BR>
B5 and Blade Runner over ST:TNG and all that rot.  If nothing else, the<BR>
clothes are much cooler.  When did you ever see Jean Luke in an ankle-length<BR>
black leather coat ("of course that's not real Droyne hide"), jack boots and<BR>
wrap around shades. No red pajamas for this soph, thank you very much. And<BR>
what's the use of strapping on that GenDye liquid cooled, laser sighted<BR>
plasma pistol if you're not going to get a chance to 'bust caps'.<BR>
<BR>
IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James Cameron? Tim<BR>
Burton?<BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.  And Christopher Walken would definitely play<BR>
a villain.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "Life ain't pretty" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:25:05 CEST<BR>
From: "Patrik Holmstrm" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
>>Races:<BR>
>><BR>
>>Where did you get Hivers being Psi resistant? They weren't in TNE, AFAIK. <BR>
>>Also I would've thought they'd have got a reduction in running.<BR>
><BR>
>Shrug. In GT at least they're listed as being non-psionic and very <BR>
> >difficult to read.<BR>
<BR>
Hivers are very difficult to read because they have (quote TNE rule book <BR>
page 249) "very alien evolution". This rule makes it harder to perceive a <BR>
Hiver mind by losing 2 stages of success when using the skill telempathy. If <BR>
there was a psi capable creature that evolved alongside the Hivers or a <BR>
someone using another psi skill they would have no such penalty.<BR>
<BR>
Where in GT did you find this reference? I have been unable so locate it.<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm <glappkaeft@hotmail.com><BR>
"Absolutely everything was available to him, but that only meant that it was <BR>
impossible to find whatever it you were looking for, which is the purpose if <BR>
computers --- Terry Pratchett<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:27:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/14/00 10:12 AM, rgb@odetics.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> Rod Basler, (who can't BELIEVE that this is actually becoming a discussion<BR>
> thread!)<BR>
<BR>
In a few months more on this list, it will be much harder to surprise you.<BR>
The oddest discussion threads develop here. I love it!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:33:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
John Wood writes:<BR>
> SOURCE CODE:<BR>
> Anthony, would you consider putting the source code for the program you<BR>
> use to generate the trade routes on the site? It doesn't matter what<BR>
> language.<BR>
<BR>
I don't have a particular problem doing that.<BR>
> <BR>
> FAR FRONTIERS SECTOR:<BR>
> I know the UWPs have been published; does the data really not exist on<BR>
> the web somewhere? It seems odd that this should be missing when so many<BR>
> sectors about which canon says nothing are there. Also it makes an<BR>
> unsightly hole in the map ATM... ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I haven't found it on the web, either in genii format or galactic.<BR>
> <BR>
> TRADE ROUTES IN EARLIER MILIEUX:<BR>
> What adjustments would need to be made to the trade route generation<BR>
> algorithm for earlier milieux, for instance M0, when common and maximum<BR>
> jump numbers were less? I would like to see a similar map for the<BR>
> (corrected) First Survey data.<BR>
<BR>
For M0, I'd remove any J4 links, and increase the penalty for J3 links.  There's also the problem that the first survey data I can find doesn't have alliegance codes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:36:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller Hero<BR>
<BR>
Patrik Holmstrm writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Where in GT did you find this reference? I have been unable so locate it.<BR>
<BR>
Its mentioned in AR3, though I don't believe that there's any actual mechanical effect listed.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:00:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/14/00 11:22 AM, webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James Cameron? Tim<BR>
> Burton?<BR>
<BR>
I'm torn between Kubrick and Terry Gilliam.<BR>
<BR>
> Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.<BR>
<BR>
Never heard of him, AFAIK. But I am awful with names, and rarely pay<BR>
attention to directors.<BR>
<BR>
>And Christopher Walken would definitely play<BR>
> a villain.<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:08:03 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
> > FAR FRONTIERS SECTOR:<BR>
> > I know the UWPs have been published; does the data really not exist on<BR>
> > the web somewhere? It seems odd that this should be missing when so many<BR>
> > sectors about which canon says nothing are there. Also it makes an<BR>
> > unsightly hole in the map ATM... ;-)<BR>
><BR>
>I haven't found it on the web, either in genii format or galactic.<BR>
<BR>
I found this site quite some time ago.  It has deckplans for INS Sydkai as <BR>
well as a sector map and notes for Foreven Sector.<BR>
<BR>
http://thor.prohosting.com/~dylango/Downloads.htm<BR>
<BR>
Hope this helps!<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 14 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2764<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy<BR>
Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
Map of Mileau 0 now available.<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
RE: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
RE: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
If Gen. George C. Marshall had a laptop.<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
Circling Around Again<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:20:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>The Itzin fleet which colonized Darrian did not set out until -1520 [op <BR>
>>cit] and reached Darrian in -1511. Canonically the fleet, which hailed<BR>
>>from Dingir in the SOlomani Rim, was TL 10. <BR>
><BR>
> I wonder if that's even possible. That would make the Itzin fleet jump-1<BR>
> and there is, IIRC, about 270 parsecs from Dingir to Darrian in a straight<BR>
> line (or rather, two straight lines as they would have to make a dogleg<BR>
> through Vland). At an average of 10 days a jump it would take 2700 days or<BR>
> about 7.4 year. That leaves them about two years to account for detours and<BR>
> lay-overs (nine annual maintenances required (another 18 weeks minimum) and<BR>
> what are the odds that they would find TL 10 planets spaced exactly to fit<BR>
> in with their maintenance schedule?) and the time they spend exploring in<BR>
> the Marches before finding the Darrians. <BR>
><BR>
> I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it sure isn't likely. Jump-2<BR>
> would be much better. Ah well...<BR>
><BR>
>>The fleet may have been aware that TL 11 & 12 were possible but they could<BR>
>>not build them or else they would have been Tl 11 or 12 not merely Tl 10.<BR>
><BR>
> That does not follow. The Itzin fleet was a civilian project. Budgetary<BR>
> considerations may have made them buy obsolete ships. But whether or not<BR>
> Dingir had fallen to TL 10 at the time, the TL 12 knowledge would still<BR>
> be available and an emigrant fleet would surely have carried a complete<BR>
> technological database with them.<BR>
<BR>
A solution to *both* the above is to have jump 2 *scouts* exploring in<BR>
advance of the main fleet, with a couple of ships having the facilities<BR>
to overhaul the scouts (for as long as the parts last). That lets the<BR>
fleet avoid detours.<BR>
<BR>
Also, remember that stellar positions will be known *hundreds* of<BR>
parsecs away from simple astronomical surveys, as will the locations of<BR>
gas giants. <BR>
<BR>
Have the scouts collecting any data the locals have on worlds near<BR>
them, and you can minimize the amount of wasted jumps by the scouts<BR>
(for example, there's no need to jump into a system with no gas giants<BR>
or large amounts of water if the pre-Long-Night info says they didn't<BR>
have adequate port facvilities or tech level *then*)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:03:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I recall my PChem prof waxing nostalgic about calculating atomic orbits<BR>
> using mechanical calculators.  It took weeks.  The same for artillery tables<BR>
> in WWII.  The original computers were (mostly women) operators punching<BR>
> numbers into mechanical calculators to build firing solution table.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, as I understand it, "computers" were the folks in *charge* of<BR>
the vast numbers of people on those calculators. They had to determine<BR>
stuff like what numbers the operators should be inputting and how many<BR>
folks should run the same calculation as a check. And things like just<BR>
how to break the problem down into parts so the operators *could* do it<BR>
with only the basic for functions.<BR>
<BR>
> And of course, us old timers remember log tables...<BR>
<BR>
Back in Alegbra when we were being taught about logs, I used the 5<BR>
place tables in my CRC handbook (bought at an *enormous* discount thru<BR>
my Physics teacher) to answer the questions. Since the textbook used 4<BR>
place tables, I rarely had to interpolate. Another guy in the class<BR>
used a book that was nothing but log tables (8 place?). He *never* had<BR>
to interpolate. <BR>
<BR>
I also remember a lady I met in the late 70s. She had an abacus as a<BR>
charm on her charm bracelet. So told me she used it on tests in high<BR>
school math classes. The teachers had said no calculators, but never<BR>
even noticed her abacus charm. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> "back in my day, we didn't need any of these fancy zeros and such" :)<BR>
<BR>
MCMLXVII - MCCCXXIX = ???<BR>
<BR>
I can do it *without* converting to Arabic numbers first. It's amazing<BR>
how easy it is to use Roman numerals with an abacus. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:16:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: SD Mooney [mailto:dom@cybergoths.u-net.com]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> At 22:32 -0400 13/7/00, "Matthew Bond" <BR>
>> <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>> > > Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, <BR>
>> when it did,<BR>
>> > > stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A <BR>
>> Coincidence? I think<BR>
>> > > not....<BR>
>> > ><BR>
>> > > Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> >Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Nooooo - it's man sized....<BR>
><BR>
> Die Fledermaus?<BR>
<BR>
No, think "Fungi from Yuggoth". I forget the name of thre Lovecraftian<BR>
critters who fly between the worlds on wings that catch the currents of<BR>
the ether, but I'm pretty sure that they are the ones being hinted at.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:16:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > FAR FRONTIERS SECTOR:<BR>
> > > I know the UWPs have been published; does the data really not exist on<BR>
> > > the web somewhere? It seems odd that this should be missing when so<BR>
> > > many sectors about which canon says nothing are there. Also it makes<BR>
> > > an unsightly hole in the map ATM... ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >I haven't found it on the web, either in genii format or galactic.<BR>
> <BR>
> I found this site quite some time ago.  It has deckplans for INS Sydkai as <BR>
> well as a sector map and notes for Foreven Sector.<BR>
> <BR>
> http://thor.prohosting.com/~dylango/Downloads.htm<BR>
<BR>
Foreven I have (noncanonical, but foreven maps are necessarily noncanonical).  Far frontiers is the sector spinward of Foreven.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:31:33 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >><BR>
> >> What gives?  Has anyone run a large number of actual weapons through FFS2 to<BR>
> >> see what the correlation is like.  All my experience so far seems to be that<BR>
> >> FFS2 is badly out of step with reality.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > FFS2 seems to have (and I must admit I've not checked it fully) a problem<BR>
> > with powerful CPR ammo.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the equations used to model things in FFS2 are all<BR>
linear, and RL firearms stats are not linear. FFS (and FFS2 and 3G3) are<BR>
all good at modelling the middle of the curves, but stray considerably<BR>
the farther you get from the mean.<BR>
<BR>
While this may seem a drawback to many more literal minded designers,<BR>
all it means, really, is that they need to be taken as guidelines not<BR>
absolutes.<BR>
<BR>
Sufficiently detailed design sequences to accurately model RL weapons at<BR>
all scales would require considerably greater computing resources than<BR>
pencil, paper, and a calculator, which are the minimum system<BR>
requirements for these products. 3G3 comes closest, and shows it...it<BR>
_requires_ a calculator, unless you're the type who _likes_ calculating<BR>
cube roots in your head...<BR>
<BR>
The same goes for all the vehicle design systems. Foex, see my VDS<BR>
designs at http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/csc_page.html<BR>
<BR>
There are several attempts at RL designs there which end up considerably<BR>
different from the RL versions.<BR>
<BR>
This is and will always be an on-going problem with _any_ design system.<BR>
The tradeoff between usability and accuracy has to be heavily biased<BR>
towards the usability end, limiting the complexity, and hence, accuracy<BR>
of the modelling system in question. <BR>
<BR>
I shouldn't have to have a Cray to throw together an ACR or ground car<BR>
for my Trav campaign...but I shouldn't think I could design a ACR IRL<BR>
with pencil, paper and a calculator, either.<BR>
<BR>
Given sufficient training, yes, but not the average GM.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Map of Mileau 0 now available.<BR>
<BR>
It's nowhere near as elegant, but a 'first survey' map is up.  It's based on<BR>
the first survey data in the Missouri Archives (which appears corrected) except for Core which is based on Galactic.<BR>
<BR>
Just the .pdf for now; 12 page pdf, 677K.  I haven't done any formula correction for the TL change, which I probably should have.<BR>
<BR>
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/allM0.pdf<BR>
<BR>
I'll add links, statistical stuff, etc, later.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:34:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/14/00 1:16 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I forget the name of the Lovecraftian<BR>
> critters who fly between the worlds on wings that catch the currents of<BR>
> the ether, but I'm pretty sure that they are the ones being hinted at.<BR>
<BR>
Mi-Go?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:37:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
> > IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James<BR>
> Cameron? Tim<BR>
> > Burton?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm torn between Kubrick and Terry Gilliam.<BR>
><BR>
> > Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.<BR>
><BR>
> Never heard of him, AFAIK. But I am awful with names, and rarely pay<BR>
> attention to directors.<BR>
<BR>
I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED to here to hear this.<BR>
<BR>
Have you never seen the "The Wild Bunch" or the original "Getaway".  Perhaps<BR>
"Bring me the head of Alfredo Garcia"? (OK, Peckinpah was a bit out of it on<BR>
this one, but a true classic).  All must sees.  In his day, he was quite<BR>
controversial, what with all the violence and blood.  Nowadays, he'd<BR>
probably rate a G.<BR>
<BR>
Another great director springs to mind: John Milius ("The Wind and the<BR>
Lion", "Farewell to the King", "Conan", "Red Dawn").  With Milius, you know<BR>
that all the weapons and equipment would be right.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:52:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
<BR>
> The problem is that the equations used to model things in FFS2 are all<BR>
> linear, and RL firearms stats are not linear. FFS (and FFS2 and 3G3) are<BR>
> all good at modelling the middle of the curves, but stray considerably<BR>
> the farther you get from the mean.<BR>
><BR>
> While this may seem a drawback to many more literal minded designers,<BR>
> all it means, really, is that they need to be taken as guidelines not<BR>
> absolutes.<BR>
<BR>
Point taken, although traveller hasn't be shy about using some fairly (for<BR>
the average gamer) intense calculation.  And the cover of FFS2 makes the<BR>
claim is the most accurate systems yet, or some such (I'm at work and don't<BR>
have it in front of me).  I'll take this as hyperbole.<BR>
<BR>
But thinks like energy of propellant (required volume) are just off.  With<BR>
large caliber CPR guns they're way off (.458 win mag need a 200+mm length<BR>
shell?! --RL is 63, quite an error).  And with 'standard' calibers like<BR>
5.56 (.223) and 7.62(.308), the calculated volumes are at the upper limit or<BR>
exceed the actual case capacity.  It looks like the whole power factor needs<BR>
to be skewed down. Right now it seems poor even in the middle of the curve.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Sufficiently detailed design sequences to accurately model RL weapons at<BR>
> all scales would require considerably greater computing resources than<BR>
> pencil, paper, and a calculator, which are the minimum system<BR>
> requirements for these products. 3G3 comes closest, and shows it...<BR>
<BR>
A calculator isn't an exotic piece of equipment, and even exemplar tables<BR>
will allow a designer to approximate a much more accurate value.  Most of<BR>
the stuff in FFS2 looks like they assumed a calculator or computer would be<BR>
used.<BR>
<BR>
To me, it appears that the model wasn't sufficiently tested against RL<BR>
examples.  OK, I'm picky.  But I don't think it will take complicated<BR>
provisioning to fix the system, and shall endeavor to do so.  I'll let<BR>
everyone know how it comes out.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:51:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> My God, Leonard, I thought I was the last person on Earth to still<BR>
>> have a circular slide rule!<BR>
><BR>
>It's one of the cheapie plastic ones with the slide out tables of<BR>
>conversion factors.<BR>
<BR>
	Waaaa!!!  I had one of those that my granddad gave me and I lost it<BR>
somewhere - had a periodic table and everything on the back.  Was terribly<BR>
useful in O Chem.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> You must be about as old as me (46) to<BR>
>> have one of those - do you have one of the twisting, sliding 'staff'<BR>
>> rules as well (mine is an old Sinclair model and great for calculating<BR>
>> quick orbits in Traveller<BR>
><BR>
>Never seen a "staff" rule. Not sure what one would look like.<BR>
<BR>
	<ears prick up>  Nor I - how do they work??  How do you use them for<BR>
calculating orbits??  Hmmm??  Is there a reference or website anywhere?  I<BR>
noticed something that looks like a likely candidate on the Slide Rule<BR>
Universe website, the link button for their 'exotics' section, but there is<BR>
no explanation.<BR>
<BR>
	Does anyone else use an astrolabe??  I've got a couple and they are a lot<BR>
of fun to play with.  As they are set up for the Earth only, they are not<BR>
terribly useful for Traveller, but they are still fun.  In fact, I met my<BR>
wife when I was wearing one on a chain and she asked me what it was.  Poor<BR>
girl got a 5 minute lecture about the geometry of the solar system and how<BR>
it relates to being able to tell time with a bunch of funny metal bits.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - (Stand back!  I have an Astrolabe, and I know how to use it!!)<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just pay me to think, they don't tell be _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:33:29 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
<Todd the "Differently Moral"><BR>
IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James Cameron?<BR>
Tim Burton?<BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.  And Christopher Walken would definitely<BR>
play a villain. <BR>
</TtDM><BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I might go with Cameron, but I'd have to get Cronenberg to write it.<BR>
Possibly along with Bruce MacDonald (rather obscure Canadian director, see<BR>
"Hard Core Logo").  Stir well and that'd about do it.<BR>
<BR>
Actors?  Walken is a good choice, but I like Peter Jurasik (Londo from B5) <BR>
as a Zhodani commander or Alan Rickman (Die Hard) as a Megacorp shadow<BR>
noble.  <BR>
<BR>
For good guys, give me Russell Crowe, Ed Harris or Kurt Russell as ex-mil<BR>
types, Steve Buscemi as the coniving merchant (maybe make him a Vargr?<BR>
:-), and Tommy Lee Jones as a grizzled old scout who's seen it. <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:39:03 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
<BR>
Rodney Basler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >Subject: Re: Symptom of Age<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In mail you write:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> My God, Leonard, I thought I was the last person on Earth to still<BR>
> >> have a circular slide rule!<BR>
> ><BR>
> >It's one of the cheapie plastic ones with the slide out tables of<BR>
> >conversion factors.<BR>
> <BR>
>         Waaaa!!!  I had one of those that my granddad gave me and I lost it<BR>
> somewhere - had a periodic table and everything on the back.  Was terribly<BR>
> useful in O Chem.<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like the one I have (got it from my father-in-law, or rather,<BR>
from cleaning out the garage after he left.) ...it was a gimmie from<BR>
Monsanto; that little card is packed with more stuff on it; double sided<BR>
and has about 5 or 6 tables on each side. Came with a little plastic<BR>
cleeve and an instruction manual.<BR>
<BR>
Quite a nifty little device. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:36:20 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: If Gen. George C. Marshall had a laptop.<BR>
<BR>
I got this from my brother in the US Army (Europe), he didn't include<BR>
the author's name.  I thought it kind of funny.  <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  shades of a modern military...<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------- <BR>
Subject: Marshall's instructions to Ike re: Invasion of France (Updated <BR>
        Version).  The view from the current PowerPoint warriors.... <BR>
<BR>
Imagine General George C. Marshall's instructions to Eisenhower, sometime <BR>
in early 1944, under today's guidance (e-mailed, of course): <BR>
Listen, Ike, we want you to go ahead and invade France this summer.  <BR>
Can your guys give us a few slides on that?  Now, you know that we asked <BR>
Macarthur for a presentation like this just before he went into the <BR>
Solomon's last year. He did OK on that one (super piece, actually-lots of <BR>
color in the Vela Lavella part!)  But now he is whining and carrying on <BR>
about our request for some slides on his going into Formosa-says he <BR>
has "better idea" about returning to the Philippines or something like <BR>
that, and that he has been up for three days straight personally making <BR>
slides to e-mail to me and the President, and he's acting really miffed <BR>
when we tell him we really don't want that, that he has to re-do it.  <BR>
Don't give us any of that crap, Ike, OK?<BR>
<BR>
Normandy, Ike, OK?  Get away from this Calais thing your staff has been <BR>
fixating on.  Normandy.  Period.  Now, about this briefing we want from <BR>
you:<BR>
<BR>
Nothing fancy, of course. I'd say that you could probably dust off the <BR>
briefing Patton used last year in Sicily-you know, the one with the <BR>
arrows in it, and it had some great timelines and phases and photo stuff <BR>
in there, and FDR really enjoyed the nifty little tank graphics.  I have <BR>
a copy here, somewhere, but you could probably get it straight from <BR>
Georgie faster than I can get it to you.  Tell him it was the one with <BR>
the purple clouds and the color-coded icons that showed troop disposition <BR>
icons down to the company level and lots of other spiffy stuff.  That way <BR>
all you really have to do is take out the Italian stuff and put in French <BR>
stuff, and there it is.  Anyway, it was in a white binder and shouldn't <BR>
be too hard for you to find.  The piece we're most interested in is the <BR>
validation / verification /certification / inoculation / gentrification / <BR>
imagination / consternation process you have put in place for each<BR>
left-handed soldier to go through before he can be permitted to participate<BR>
in <BR>
this operation. We must be absolutely sure that even though their <BR>
commanders say that those soldiers are "ready," some oversight mechanism <BR>
must be put in place to ensure continued GO omnipotence.  Got that?   <BR>
Competence isn't the point, at least not as big a point as nit picking.  <BR>
Just remember that "horseshoe nail" story, huh?  Don't worry about trying <BR>
to impress us with how you are actually going to pull this operation <BR>
off.  We know that will happen through the sheer power of the force and <BR>
the competence of our troops and their leadership.  What we are <BR>
interested in is how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  Don't <BR>
re-invent the wheel, Ike; just make it rounder.  Follow me?<BR>
<BR>
Now, with that in mind:  You need to include in your briefing slides the <BR>
packing lists for each paratrooper (making sure that every other trooper <BR>
out the door has an eyedropper), and we want to get a lay-down on your <BR>
concept for "clean socks rotation" at the beachhead (but only for the <BR>
British and Canadian troops).  Oh, and don't forget to show us a serial <BR>
number listing of the landing craft; the oil analysis reports for the <BR>
engines on all the troop-carrying aircraft made in Seattle (we have the <BR>
reports from Denver); and do an ammunition lot number cross-reference <BR>
between Divisions (American only) for the 155mm rounds out of Toledo-or <BR>
was it Cleveland? Whatever.<BR>
<BR>
Let's see... Be sure to show us (down to the squad level) a by-name <BR>
roster of every soldier going in-oh, broken down, say, by wave by beach, <BR>
by sector by weapons system-over the first ten days, and then projected <BR>
on a weekly basis for the first three months of the campaign conforming <BR>
to your replacement and casualty forecast analysis and synchronized with <BR>
your anticipated connectivity with the progress and resourcing pertaining <BR>
to the strategic underpinnings of the Italian campaign (but only through <BR>
ugust of this year).<BR>
<BR>
Was that clear enough guidance?  Okay.  Did I also mention that we would <BR>
like you to be sure to show how you intend to get fresh butter to the <BR>
front-line soldier on a daily basis; how you plan to rotate rifle slings <BR>
across companies; what your concept is for deploying and re-supplying <BR>
shoelace repair platoons throughout the theater; and what your intent is <BR>
when it comes to total asset visibility as it applies to the Red Ball <BR>
Express as it develops? Please put that in also. Hmmmm...  That should do <BR>
it for the main part of the slide show, I guess.  As backup slides, we <BR>
would like you to list the maiden names of each soldier's mother; the <BR>
shoe sizes of soldiers' wives and/or girlfriends; and a birthplace <BR>
listing of each soldier's still-living grandparents-on the maternal side <BR>
only will be OK.  I also would like you to think about throwing in some <BR>
slides that show (in case some civilian bureaucrat asks-you know how all <BR>
they think about is the gnat's ass) just how long it takes a one-legged <BR>
grasshopper to kick all the eyes out of a California russet potato.  Why <BR>
people like that are interested in such trivia is beyond me. The rest of <BR>
the usual backup stuff we probably don't need, but somebody always wants <BR>
to know some weed-eating detail, so go ahead and put it in the binder.  <BR>
You know, things like your mission statement, intent, concept... that <BR>
sort of thing. I guess you could also show a little of your staff's <BR>
mission analysis, and maybe a slide or two (no more than two, though) on <BR>
your campaign plan (objectives, operational maneuver, boundaries, <BR>
logistics plan)... all that techno-pop gee-whiz stuff that only people <BR>
like Brad and Monty would be interested in.  If you insist on including <BR>
the procedures you will use to implement that newfangled "written plan" <BR>
thing you always bring up before an operation like this, for God's sake <BR>
tab it into the back part of the backup binder!<BR>
<BR>
I personally am getting tired of your pushing that "plans and orders" <BR>
thing, Ike.  I told you way back when you were going into Casablanca to <BR>
lay off that radical thinking.  That stuff will be your undoing.  You <BR>
make it sound like this is an election campaign for the White House or <BR>
something, for crying out loud.  I advise you to keep that kind of <BR>
complex industrial thinking out of the military.  Written plans limit our <BR>
flexibility.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I guess you get the idea of what we're looking for.  I'm thinking <BR>
that probably 20 or 30 slides should cover it.  Not a big deal.  And <BR>
you'll be glad to know that we have taken your comments about "short <BR>
suspense's" to heart; you won't have to brief these until 1300 tomorrow.  <BR>
Let me know if that will be a problem. <BR>
<BR>
My best to Mamie. <BR>
v/r <BR>
George <BR>
- -- <BR>
George.Marshall@hqda.army.mil <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:46:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 22:32 -0400 13/7/00, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
>> > Ask rather, 'Why did the Pathfinder crash where it did, when it did,<BR>
>> > stopping the Aslan from sliding to oblivion?'. A Coincidence? I think<BR>
>> > not....<BR>
>> ><BR>
>> > Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
><BR>
>Nooooo - it's man sized....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So is it Batman, then?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:52:18 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
From: Rodney Basler <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
>><BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>Actually, B&D would be a not *too* dangerous outlet for any "urges"<BR>
>>Mistress Ditzhammer might have. I'm sure she'd check the limits of the<BR>
>>human body as closely as she does those of any component in the weapons<BR>
>>she designs.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Besides, good bondage devices are probably required to get the leeegals<BR>
>>to stick around to view the tests...<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> OK..but given the recoil values of some of their weapons, I have the<BR>
>sinking feeling that 'user pain tolerance' is not very high on her list of<BR>
>design priorities.  Under those circumstances, I would suggest choosing a<BR>
>'safe word' that is both easy to say and and instinctively remembered.<BR>
>Something like "AAAARRRRUGGGGHHH!<gurgle>"<BR>
> Hmmmm..."Mistress Ditzhammer"... Jesse, if you feel a drawing coming on, I<BR>
>wanna see  ;o)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I don't.  10 year old girls (or boys for that matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
<BR>
> It's getting mighty crowded down here in the gutter,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Ya, well, I was here first.<BR>
<BR>
> Rod Basler, (who can't BELIEVE that this is actually becoming a discussion<BR>
>thread!)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I know, the last time I brought up BDSM & Traveller, I was flamed by<BR>
everyone on the list, for some reason.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 17:35:52 -0400<BR>
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>When I wrote that the container could be opened while against the<BR>
>>body, I took it for granted that you would understand that it could<BR>
>>then be closed while against the body.<BR>
>You'd still have some hassles with the (rather large) amount of fluid<BR>
>that might be clinging to the body. I suspect the absorbent cover (or<BR>
>even fill) might be a *much* easier design.<BR>
<BR>
	I don't see why anything more than a little surface dampness<BR>
	would be left, and a cloth wipe or absorbant ring around the<BR>
	bottle opening would take care of that if you are really worried<BR>
	about it.<BR>
<BR>
>>>You may be searching inside the ship for these things. They may also<BR>
>>>get used in emergencies on vacuum worlds.<BR>
>>"Jim, would you check in that 3 x 3 x 2.25 m stateroom for any<BR>
>>1 m diameter x 2 m long silver pods.  Look carefully, and make<BR>
>>sure that you don't miss any!"<BR>
>Passengers will get into the damned places, crew will get caught<BR>
>without a vacc suit and have to use a ball, and the ship may be<BR>
>somewhat "re-arranged".<BR>
<BR>
	And the pods might get spray painted, and they might get shot,<BR>
	etc.  The passengers will be pretty much restricted to getting<BR>
	into the things at designated stations with the aid of the crew,<BR>
	and my version will be pretty difficult to move around without<BR>
	outside help.  Even so, it would be difficult to hide one of<BR>
	these things on most ships if you were trying to do so, and any<BR>
	good hiding place is unlikely to be any worse if the pod is a<BR>
	particular colour.<BR>
<BR>
>Also, they may no longer be *in* the ship. After all, the radios we've<BR>
>been discussing, as well as some of the coatings, etc aren't useful<BR>
>inside the ship. <BR>
<BR>
	Yup.  I am thinking of something for passengers on starships, so<BR>
	they may have to be evacuated in vacuum.  I can picture the crew<BR>
	throwing the pods across from a disabled vessel into the open<BR>
	cargo bay of a nearby ship.<BR>
<BR>
>>I suspect that on a vacuum world a reflective surface would be<BR>
>>as easy to spot as a red one.<BR>
>Frozen iceball. Europa, for example.<BR>
<BR>
	Good point, but not a likely scenario for the designers.<BR>
<BR>
>>In any event, I see these things<BR>
>>as only being used when accompanied by trained personel in vacc<BR>
>>suits.<BR>
>That's the ideal. Reality may fall a bit short. :-)<BR>
<BR>
	Life's like that, but economics may dictate a cheap version that<BR>
	just takes care of the basic emergencies.  Personally, I'm not<BR>
	sure that the floating seat pad from the airliner is the best<BR>
	possible life preserver.<BR>
<BR>
Peez<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:36:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Circling Around Again<BR>
<BR>
	Last month there was some interminable discussion about the merits of 0.5c<BR>
attack runs.  Not that I want to open that discussion again (perish the<BR>
thought!), but after we calculated that it would take almost 29 days to<BR>
accelerate to that speed at 6g, I remember that someone asked how long it<BR>
would take to circle around for another pass rather than using a<BR>
straight-line deceleration.<BR>
	Well, I was digging through my old physics text, and finally came across<BR>
the formula for centripedal acceleration  a = v^2 / R  (doh!  so simple, how<BR>
could I have forgotten it?).<BR>
	So, using a velocity of 0.5c and an acceleration of 60m/sec^2, I end up<BR>
with a radius of 1.25 million LS.  So the ship would trace a big circle 2.5<BR>
milling LS across, taking about six months (181 days).  Trying to do it in a<BR>
straight line would take 28.9 days to slow to zero, and another 28.9 to get<BR>
back.  In other words, would take three times as long to circle around.<BR>
(and Murphy's Rules was razzing Traveller about having a 10 minute turn<BR>
length for space combat ... "Crank up the low berths Martha, it's going to<BR>
be six months 'til round 2!")<BR>
	And if anyone wants to point out that the ship is 16% heavier due to<BR>
relativistic effects, I say "Ha!!  I'm using Classic drives, powered by<BR>
purest handwaveium(TM), and acceleration is not affected by ship mass!"  ;o)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - (Pounding what is hopefully the last stake into the chest of<BR>
the Thread That Would Not Die)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just pay me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2764<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2765</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/14/00 8:46:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 14 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2765<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age, the Movie Version<BR>
Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
RE: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
RE: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
CONCUR  RE: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
RE: Trav-Tech Mailing List<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:09:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
>> Hmmmm..."Mistress Ditzhammer"... Jesse, if you feel a drawing coming on,<BR>
I<BR>
>>wanna see  ;o)<BR>
><BR>
>    I don't.  10 year old girls (or boys for that matter) & BDSM DO NOT<BR>
MIX.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	The _Older_ Ditzie, 'fer cryin' out loud, the Older Ditzie!!  Jeeez, my<BR>
mind may be in the gutter, but I don't need a periscope yet!<BR>
<BR>
	Crimmeny...  ;o)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - (That's 'Crochety Old Fart', not 'Dirty Old Man')<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just pay me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:25:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age, the Movie Version<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
>> > IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James<BR>
>> Cameron? Tim Burton?<BR>
<snippage><BR>
>><BR>
>> > Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Never heard of him, AFAIK. But I am awful with names, and rarely pay<BR>
>> attention to directors.<BR>
><BR>
>I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED to here to hear this.<BR>
><BR>
>Have you never seen the "The Wild Bunch"<BR>
<BR>
	Got to see the restored version of that...ooohhhh...cool.  Especially all<BR>
the 'latest military weapons' (M1911 and '03 Springfield).<BR>
<BR>
>  In his day, he was quite<BR>
>controversial, what with all the violence and blood.  Nowadays, he'd<BR>
>probably rate a G.<BR>
<BR>
	Well...PG, maybe PG-13.  Remember all the controversy over 'Clockwork<BR>
Orange'?  It was originally rated X.  Dozen years ago when they rereleased<BR>
it, the rating was dropped to R, even with the infamous "menage-a-trois in<BR>
fast motion" scene (which is hysterically funny - nothing like fast motion<BR>
to distance you from an action and let you see how fundamentally ridiculous<BR>
it is...)<BR>
<BR>
	Arthur Penn, anyone? ("Bonnie and Clyde")<BR>
<BR>
>Another great director springs to mind: John Milius ("The Wind and the<BR>
>Lion", "Farewell to the King", "Conan", "Red Dawn").  With Milius, you know<BR>
>that all the weapons and equipment would be right.<BR>
<BR>
	Oddly enough, I thought of him, too.  I don't think he really has a<BR>
'cyberpunk' feel, though.  He was absolutely perfect for "Conan" (mental<BR>
note...rent "The Wind and the Lion" ...no, strike that: buy it)<BR>
<BR>
	Here's a sick possibility:  David Lynch??  Not really a Traveller movie,<BR>
but it might be interesting to watch, as long as someone else wrote the<BR>
screenplay and kept control of the story.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - COFIT<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just pay me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:35:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
<BR>
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
>Subject: Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>Sounds like the one I have (got it from my father-in-law, or rather,<BR>
>from cleaning out the garage after he left.) ...it was a gimmie from<BR>
>Monsanto; that little card is packed with more stuff on it; double sided<BR>
>and has about 5 or 6 tables on each side. Came with a little plastic<BR>
>cleeve and an instruction manual.<BR>
><BR>
>Quite a nifty little device.<BR>
<BR>
	That's the one - My GF got his from Hunter Engineering, for whom he worked<BR>
for several years after retiring from Kaiser.  I guess someone made up a<BR>
whole bunch and then printed logos to order.  Far more useful that some of<BR>
the promo gimmies that they sell these days.  It certainly was a nifty<BR>
little device.<BR>
	Rats...I really wish I knew where it was.  Waaaaa!<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler - COFIT<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They just pay me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:12:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
> For good guys, give me Russell Crowe, Ed Harris or Kurt Russell as ex-mil<BR>
> types, Steve Buscemi as the coniving merchant (maybe make him a Vargr?<BR>
> :-), and Tommy Lee Jones as a grizzled old scout who's seen it.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Yeah, Steve Buscemi.  I'd cast him as the weasely guy on the street.  One of<BR>
the Weseli family, IMTU. One of those people with a middle name in<BR>
quotations, e.g. Lenny "the weasel".  Too bad Aldo Rey is gone. Always a<BR>
good top kick or merc.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:14:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
<BR>
> Sounds like the one I have (got it from my father-in-law, or rather,<BR>
> from cleaning out the garage after he left.) ...it was a gimmie from<BR>
> Monsanto; that little card is packed with more stuff on it; double sided<BR>
> and has about 5 or 6 tables on each side. Came with a little plastic<BR>
> cleeve and an instruction manual.<BR>
> <BR>
> Quite a nifty little device. <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
see http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/circular.html<BR>
<BR>
Just ordered mine.  $29 US.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:14:16 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
Guys, I'm putting my foot down.<BR>
<BR>
This Ditzie and S+M thread ends now.<BR>
<BR>
Ditzie is about biological and emotional age of seven.<BR>
<BR>
This is a Traveller list, not an S+M list. What people do in their off-hours<BR>
is fine, but this list should be kept reasonably G-rated.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, Roderick is a lawyer with a twisted sense of humour. I wouldnt<BR>
like to have to hire him to sue you bastards over damage to the image of<BR>
Famile Spofualm.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:31:33 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: FFS2 wierdness (was: Quick FFS2 question)<BR>
><BR>
> > The problem is that the equations used to model things in FFS2 are all<BR>
> > linear, and RL firearms stats are not linear. FFS (and FFS2 and 3G3) are<BR>
> > all good at modelling the middle of the curves, but stray considerably<BR>
> > the farther you get from the mean.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > While this may seem a drawback to many more literal minded designers,<BR>
> > all it means, really, is that they need to be taken as guidelines not<BR>
> > absolutes.<BR>
><BR>
> Point taken, although traveller hasn't be shy about using some fairly (for<BR>
> the average gamer) intense calculation.  And the cover of FFS2 makes the<BR>
> claim is the most accurate systems yet, or some such (I'm at work and<BR>
don't<BR>
> have it in front of me).  I'll take this as hyperbole.<BR>
><BR>
> But thinks like energy of propellant (required volume) are just off.  With<BR>
> large caliber CPR guns they're way off (.458 win mag need a 200+mm length<BR>
> shell?! --RL is 63, quite an error).  And with 'standard' calibers like<BR>
> 5.56 (.223) and 7.62(.308), the calculated volumes are at the upper limit<BR>
or<BR>
> exceed the actual case capacity.  It looks like the whole power factor<BR>
needs<BR>
> to be skewed down. Right now it seems poor even in the middle of the<BR>
curve.<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Sufficiently detailed design sequences to accurately model RL weapons at<BR>
> > all scales would require considerably greater computing resources than<BR>
> > pencil, paper, and a calculator, which are the minimum system<BR>
> > requirements for these products. 3G3 comes closest, and shows it...<BR>
><BR>
> A calculator isn't an exotic piece of equipment, and even exemplar tables<BR>
> will allow a designer to approximate a much more accurate value.  Most of<BR>
> the stuff in FFS2 looks like they assumed a calculator or computer would<BR>
be<BR>
> used.<BR>
><BR>
> To me, it appears that the model wasn't sufficiently tested against RL<BR>
> examples.  OK, I'm picky.  But I don't think it will take complicated<BR>
> provisioning to fix the system, and shall endeavor to do so.  I'll let<BR>
> everyone know how it comes out.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
FFS2 wasnt adequately tested against anything. The playtest period was,<BR>
like, two weeks.<BR>
<BR>
I'd love you to go right ahead with rejigging FFS2 for big ammo (actually a<BR>
bunch of examples for how to build a CPR gun in FFS2 would be great - oh<BR>
yeah, and Recoiless Rifle rules too).<BR>
<BR>
The only issue is the knock-on effects to make things like backpack lasers<BR>
competitive.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, while I'm here, does anyone know enough about ballistics to either<BR>
explain or justify effective body armour at TL9-12 ?<BR>
<BR>
My problem is that it seems remarkably simple to build weapons that punch<BR>
huge amounts of body armour.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:47:34 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
> This Ditzie and S+M thread ends now.<BR>
> <BR>
> Ditzie is about biological and emotional age of seven.<BR>
> <BR>
Forever?  That's a neat trick.  I was seven too, once, believe it or<BR>
not... the infamous Mistress Tiamat of Anime Expo '98 was, in fact, once<BR>
seven.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think anyone is imagining *little* Ditzie as Mistress Ditzhammer.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:56:36 -0400<BR>
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 at 12:37, webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote<BR>
>Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
><BR>
>Have you never seen the "The Wild Bunch" or the original "Getaway".  Perhaps<BR>
>"Bring me the head of Alfredo Garcia"? (OK, Peckinpah was a bit out of it on<BR>
>this one, but a true classic).  All must sees.  In his day, he was quite<BR>
>controversial, what with all the violence and blood.  Nowadays, he'd<BR>
>probably rate a G.<BR>
<BR>
	Sam Peckinpah is one of the most influential directors of the 20th<BR>
century.  The Wild Bunch is his quintessential work and most important one,<BR>
historically.  Some would argue it's Bonnie & Clyde.  He grew up surrounded<BR>
by people with their roots in the Old West of frontier days.  He told<BR>
stories about people whose era was passing but who clung to an outmoded<BR>
code of honour that usually only they understood or knew about.  Outlaws,<BR>
usually.  He would very much understand the appeal of roleplaying games<BR>
about characters who are a small "band of brothers" adventuring through a<BR>
universe that contains surprising wonders.  Characters who usually seem to<BR>
end up having extreme violence pepper their lives at some point (as fits<BR>
the style of most, but hardly all, Traveller groups).  He's a very good<BR>
suggestion.  The Wild Bunch is on my list of Top 20 Movies Ever.<BR>
<BR>
	John Milius, you can keep for your own Traveller movie, not mine, thanks.<BR>
:-><BR>
<BR>
	Can't go wrong with Stanley Kubrick.  How about John Huston?  Or<BR>
maybe....Robert Altman?  John Sayles is my all time favorite director or<BR>
maybe Robert Towne.  And they're both great writers too.  How about one of<BR>
them?  Less testosterone driven, and more socially aware, but they'd get my<BR>
vote.<BR>
<BR>
- --Laning<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 01:44:46 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> BTW, while I'm here, does anyone know enough about ballistics to either<BR>
> explain or justify effective body armour at TL9-12 ?<BR>
><BR>
> My problem is that it seems remarkably simple to build weapons that punch<BR>
> huge amounts of body armour.<BR>
><BR>
> Ian Whitchurch<BR>
><BR>
Form what little I do know about ballistics in this day and age, as I'm a<BR>
little out of touch with the Traveler specifics at the moment; yes there<BR>
seems little use in weraing a vest if up against a large enough calibre<BR>
round. It tends to make an easier target, rather than help the person it's<BR>
meant to be protecting. Though this is only true for more powerfull rounds,<BR>
not what vests are built for; which would be shrapnel and small calibre<BR>
rounds.<BR>
I may stand corrected, though this is how I percieve the situ.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:24:39 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
I know this could be dangerous to mention...but Ditzie...did she ever study/lecture<BR>
at Illuminati University? Being a multidimensional campus there must be an entrance<BR>
or two somewhere in the GT universe...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
> >>Subject: RE: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Not B&D, but BD as in an abbreviation for BattleDress.  Some peoples kids<BR>
> > ;)<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>Jesse<BR>
> ><BR>
> >    I know, I know...but I almost dived for cover when I saw that subject line<BR>
> > (lol).  There are just some sophonts that one does NOT want anywhere near<BR>
> > you when you are handcuffed.<BR>
><BR>
> Why? Given her track record with weapons and other equipment, she'd<BR>
> never hurt you unintentionally. And if she wanted to hurt you, do you<BR>
> think anything short of moving to the Zhodani Consulate would save you?<BR>
> <eg><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:28:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
From: Rodney Basler <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    I don't.  10 year old girls (or boys for that matter) & BDSM DO NOT<BR>
>MIX.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
> The _Older_ Ditzie, 'fer cryin' out loud, the Older Ditzie!!  Jeeez, my<BR>
>mind may be in the gutter, but I don't need a periscope yet!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The Older Ditzie is 15 or 16 yo.  !5/16 yo girls (or boys for that<BR>
matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
<BR>
> Crimmeny...  ;o)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:34:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
From: Katharine Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
>Guys, I'm putting my foot down.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Thank god Katharine.  Finnally a voice of reason.<BR>
<BR>
>This Ditzie and S+M thread ends now.<BR>
><BR>
>Ditzie is about biological and emotional age of seven.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I always thought her to be about sixish, maybe seven, but most likely<BR>
sixish.<BR>
<BR>
>This is a Traveller list, not an S+M list. What people do in their<BR>
off-hours<BR>
>is fine, but this list should be kept reasonably G-rated.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Please, respect me by saying BDSM, not S+M.  And, I agree with the<BR>
G/PG/PG-13 Rating.  If you want to keep it G-Rated, then nothing from FS, at<BR>
all.  Violence can gain you a PG rating.<BR>
<BR>
>Remember, Roderick is a lawyer with a twisted sense of humour. I wouldnt<BR>
>like to have to hire him to sue you bastards over damage to the image of<BR>
>Famile Spofualm.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Actually, I was defending her, & if he does want to sue me, let him.<BR>
*weg*  We shall let the Eldar Confederation (TL-20) fight it out with FS &<BR>
see who wins.<BR>
    Btw, the Eldar Confederation is a major universe shaking event in MTU.<BR>
Basicly, when they started their selling their products in the 3I &<BR>
surrounding areas, they almost put FS out of business, that & the fact that<BR>
they destroyed a few moons that FS had factories on, kinda made FS pull back<BR>
a second & go, "we surrender".<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:35:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
<BR>
>I don't think anyone is imagining *little* Ditzie as Mistress Ditzhammer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I'm not.  I was thinking more along the lines of ditzhammer.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:42:35 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
A nuke powered sauna? just the thing for those russian winters i am<BR>
thinking...could be problem parking in backyard if you are from somewhere in the<BR>
midwest...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of SD Mooney<BR>
> > Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:19 AM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 8:47 -0400 14/7/00, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:<BR>
> > > >>Aww. Guess I'll have to settle for a Typhoon when I win the lottery.<BR>
> > > > Why do you want a Eurofighter?<BR>
> > >The *submarine*....<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > <grin><BR>
> ><BR>
> > I guessed it wasn't your own personal tropical storm ;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Dom<BR>
><BR>
> The way the Russians are selling every piece of their military eqipment that<BR>
> isn't nailed down, you could probably get a good deal.  And the Typhoon does<BR>
> have it's own sauna, IIRC.<BR>
><BR>
> Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:56:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
At 06:28 PM 7/14/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    The Older Ditzie is 15 or 16 yo.  !5/16 yo girls (or boys for that<BR>
>matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
<BR>
Never been to Amsterdam, have you?  :P<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:10:56 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, that's a Ditzie instrument alright.  However, I think she'd use<BR>
something with a little more "punch", shall we say?<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:23 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: [S1889] Music of the Villians<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> This strikes me as the sort of thing Ditizie would like....<BR>
><BR>
> [re-mailed to you from mail]<BR>
> [the original seemed to come from S1889@egroups.com]<BR>
><BR>
> Now here is the musical instrument for every Villian!<BR>
> This thing gives a whole new dimension to the phrase "heavy metal"!<BR>
><BR>
>    Large Hot Pipe Organ<BR>
>    http://www.lhpo.org/<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Here's a description from the top of the web page:<BR>
><BR>
>    The Large Hot Pipe Organ is the world's only MIDI controlled,<BR>
>    propane powered explosion organ.  The LHPO's pyro-acoustic<BR>
>    explodo-rhythmations will throbbatize your earholes and dance-ify<BR>
>    your booty and make you realize what "Industrial Music" REALLY means!<BR>
><BR>
> Unfortunately, they seem to be based in Europe, so we can't go see it<BR>
> up close and personal.<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!<BR>
> 1. Fill in the brief application<BR>
> 2. Receive approval decision within 30 seconds<BR>
> 3. Get rates as low as 2.9% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR<BR>
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6630/4/_/409960/_/963539911/<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:12:20 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
I'm not even gonna' TOUCH that one.  This is a family show after all ;)<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rodney<BR>
> Basler<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:13 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >Subject: Re: RE: Ditzie & BD<BR>
> ><BR>
> >In mail you write:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Actually, B&D would be a not *too* dangerous outlet for any "urges"<BR>
> >Mistress Ditzhammer might have. I'm sure she'd check the limits of the<BR>
> >human body as closely as she does those of any component in the weapons<BR>
> >she designs.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Besides, good bondage devices are probably required to get the leeegals<BR>
> >to stick around to view the tests...<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> 	OK..but given the recoil values of some of their weapons, I have the<BR>
> sinking feeling that 'user pain tolerance' is not very high on her list of<BR>
> design priorities.  Under those circumstances, I would suggest choosing a<BR>
> 'safe word' that is both easy to say and and instinctively remembered.<BR>
> Something like "AAAARRRRUGGGGHHH!<gurgle>"<BR>
> 	Hmmmm..."Mistress Ditzhammer"... Jesse, if you feel a<BR>
> drawing coming on, I<BR>
> wanna see  ;o)<BR>
><BR>
> 	It's getting mighty crowded down here in the gutter,<BR>
><BR>
> 	Rod Basler, (who can't BELIEVE that this is actually<BR>
> becoming a discussion<BR>
> thread!)<BR>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
> Disclaimer - They just tell me to think, they don't tell me<BR>
> _what_ to think.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:19:36 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: CONCUR  RE: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
The title says it all, and I'd have to agree with it, NO MATTER WHICH<BR>
PICTURE YOU BASE IT ON.<BR>
<BR>
'Nuff said,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:45:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>Never been to Amsterdam, have you?  :P<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    A couple of times, why?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:43:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Trav-Tech Mailing List<BR>
<BR>
I am on it - drop by Pinkerdoo's web site for the links and stuff<BR>
<BR>
http://members.home.com/pinkerdoo<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mark Laiho<BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2000 1:44 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Trav-Tech Mailing List<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Anyone know if the trav-tech (Gear-head) mailing list is still functioning?<BR>
Has it moved? If it does exist how do I subscribe?<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:20:32 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:22:02 -0700<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James Cameron? Tim<BR>
>Burton?<BR>
<BR>
Akira Kirasawa (sp?) - Epic granduer and a deft touch for humanity.<BR>
David Lynch - On the strength of Eraser Head, Blue Velvet, and Twin Peaks.<BR>
   A true master of inexplicable weirdness.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.  And Christopher Walken would definitely play<BR>
>a villain.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
IMTU Film Walken gets to be the good guy. (I like to cast against type.)<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2765<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2766</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/15/00 10:33:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 15 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2766<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Rumors<BR>
On Killing, etc. (actual new content)<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: On Killing, etc. (actual new content)<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
Re: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: MOS<BR>
Re: James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
cultural commentary<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:28:50 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Rumors<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:01:51 EDT<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>> While your there could somebody with information regarding the<BR>
possibility<BR>
>>  of an officially sanctioned continuation of the TNE timeline surf over<BR>
to<BR>
>>  the rumor mill section. There are a cupula guys there that might find<BR>
the<BR>
>>  info usefull. I think the thread is headed T5 or somesuch.<BR>
><BR>
>You guys don't want to hear my real feelings on rumors. Rumors killed GDW<BR>
>more than any other single factor. Don't get me started . . .<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Which is why I asked if some one "with information" could straighten it out.<BR>
All I can add on that subject would just be rumor. Which as you note would<BR>
only<BR>
be counter productive.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:36:30 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: On Killing, etc. (actual new content)<BR>
<BR>
There is a recent book, "An Intimate History of Killing: Face-to-Face<BR>
Killing in Twentieth-Century Warfare," by Joanna Bourke, a professor of<BR>
history at the University of London, which has a somewhat new position on<BR>
this whole business of killing other people. The author claims that many of<BR>
the past studies of the experience of killing in war are terribly biased,<BR>
with the clear evidence that some men actually enjoy killing others casually<BR>
ignored. Apparently some, but not all, people actually enjoy killing others<BR>
in wartime, and the experience does not necessarily negatively affect them<BR>
once they go back to civilian life.<BR>
<BR>
Apparently this is part of a new wave of "cultural studies" research which<BR>
is trendy these days. Since it does not involve things which I understand,<BR>
like photons, Fourier transforms, and other related stuff, I will not claim<BR>
any useful knowledge of the subject.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps in the Traveller universe, these types of people staff those<BR>
ubiquitous mercenary units.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:20:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
No no no no<BR>
<BR>
John Woo MUST direct it ;)<BR>
<BR>
(scenes of Imperal Scouts diving across rooms with two gauss pistols<BR>
spraying death into the evil pirates...)<BR>
<BR>
(OT- I also think that the thing Star Trek needs to bring it back is a<BR>
couple of action directions - like the Brothers and Woo.. hehehe... Same as<BR>
above but with phasers)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Charles<BR>
Collin<BR>
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 1:33 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<Todd the "Differently Moral"><BR>
IYTU, who would direct the movie version?  Ridley Scott? James Cameron?<BR>
Tim Burton?<BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd go for Sam Peckinpah.  And Christopher Walken would definitely<BR>
play a villain.<BR>
</TtDM><BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I might go with Cameron, but I'd have to get Cronenberg to write it.<BR>
Possibly along with Bruce MacDonald (rather obscure Canadian director, see<BR>
"Hard Core Logo").  Stir well and that'd about do it.<BR>
<BR>
Actors?  Walken is a good choice, but I like Peter Jurasik (Londo from B5)<BR>
as a Zhodani commander or Alan Rickman (Die Hard) as a Megacorp shadow<BR>
noble.<BR>
<BR>
For good guys, give me Russell Crowe, Ed Harris or Kurt Russell as ex-mil<BR>
types, Steve Buscemi as the coniving merchant (maybe make him a Vargr?<BR>
:-), and Tommy Lee Jones as a grizzled old scout who's seen it.<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:43:20 EDT<BR>
From: RBasler1@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/14/00 8:46:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
 Subject: Re: The Ditzie and S+M thread ends *now*<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
    Nooo! Nooo!  Discussion thread..spinning out of control!!<BR>
<BR>
    <Throws self on conversational hangrenade><BR>
        .....<BR>
    *FWUMP*  (sound of muffled explosion)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    ...there...end of subject<BR>
<BR>
    Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- ----------------------------------------<BR>
no disclaimer needed....I'm at home now!  Whoo Hoo!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:10:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Rodney Basler <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
><BR>
>> Hmmmm..."Mistress Ditzhammer"... Jesse, if you feel a drawing coming on, I<BR>
>>wanna see  ;o)<BR>
><BR>
>     I don't.  10 year old girls (or boys for that matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
<BR>
They shouldn't be introduced to it. But some discover it on their own.<BR>
<BR>
A friend tells of walking in on her kids doing something that would<BR>
qualify at around ages 4 & 5. She gently explained that they shouldn't<BR>
use the toys that way, and left it at that.<BR>
<BR>
For that matter, consider how many "kids games" involve getting tied up,<BR>
and even (in some cases) things like getting spanked.<BR>
<BR>
>> It's getting mighty crowded down here in the gutter,<BR>
><BR>
>     Ya, well, I was here first.<BR>
<BR>
OH? then why are you blocking my snorkel?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:13:43 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Rodney Basler <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
><BR>
>>>    I don't.  10 year old girls (or boys for that matter) & BDSM DO NOT<BR>
>>MIX.<BR>
>>><BR>
>><BR>
>> The _Older_ Ditzie, 'fer cryin' out loud, the Older Ditzie!!  Jeeez, my<BR>
>>mind may be in the gutter, but I don't need a periscope yet!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     The Older Ditzie is 15 or 16 yo.  !5/16 yo girls (or boys for that<BR>
> matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
<BR>
It's above the age of consent in some states. <BR>
<BR>
And if you insist, we'll add two more years (18 is legal in this state,<BR>
even for that).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:30:05 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: On Killing, etc. (actual new content)<BR>
<BR>
luther points out<BR>
<BR>
> There is a recent book, "An Intimate History of Killing: Face-to-Face<BR>
> Killing in Twentieth-Century Warfare," by Joanna Bourke, a professor of<BR>
> history at the University of London, which has a somewhat new position on<BR>
> this whole business of killing other people. The author claims that many of<BR>
> the past studies of the experience of killing in war are terribly biased,<BR>
> with the clear evidence that some men actually enjoy killing others casually<BR>
> ignored. Apparently some, but not all, people actually enjoy killing others<BR>
> in wartime, and the experience does not necessarily negatively affect them<BR>
> once they go back to civilian life.<BR>
> <BR>
> Perhaps in the Traveller universe, these types of people staff those<BR>
> ubiquitous mercenary units.<BR>
<BR>
This is an easy one, imagine any revoluationary or the Western Gunfighter<BR>
 forced to  kill to save their family.  Just to name a few examples.<BR>
<BR>
If they are in mercenary jobs then it to earn money or they see it <BR>
as a job.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:30:22 -0700<BR>
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>  The files in question do not appear to be on my hard drive, at least not<BR>
> under an obvious name. More looking is called for...<BR>
<BR>
Guys this could take a whiles......<BR>
<BR>
I've seen his collection, and it is in the middle of a massive reorg.<BR>
- --<BR>
Evyn...<BR>
<BR>
C-Space home http://home.att.net/~wmacdude/<BR>
<BR>
When Spring comes back with rustling shade,<BR>
And apple blossoms fills the air,<BR>
I have a rendezvous with Death,<BR>
When spring brings back blue days and fair.<BR>
 Legionnaire Alan Seeger, KIA the Somme.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 23:14:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>>     Ya, well, I was here first.<BR>
<BR>
>OH? then why are you blocking my snorkel?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Why not Len?  Might as well block your snorkel as do anything else.<BR>
*weg*<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:21:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I know this could be dangerous to mention...but Ditzie...did she ever<BR>
> study/lecture at Illuminati University? Being a multidimensional<BR>
> campus there must be an entrance or two somewhere in the GT<BR>
> universe...<BR>
<BR>
She'd have definitely been involved with WUSE. Not sure if she'd be<BR>
more at home in the Physics department, or the Department of Miltary<BR>
Science and Cost Overruns.<BR>
<BR>
And I expect that there was a *much* higher than normal number of<BR>
explosions while she was there.<BR>
<BR>
I'd be tempted to locate the campus on Darrian. It'd certainly explain<BR>
the Maghiz. <eg><BR>
<BR>
ps. I wonder if the Arch-Dean owns any FS shares?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:31:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Silly weapons question (Attn: Tod!)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> A nuke powered sauna? just the thing for those russian winters i am<BR>
> thinking...could be problem parking in backyard if you are from<BR>
> somewhere in the midwest...<BR>
<BR>
Nah, the sub could make it all the way into Portland. Up the Columbia,<BR>
then up the Willamette. <BR>
<BR>
And for folks in the midwest, the Mississippi is fairly convenient.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:41:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/14/00 1:16 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com issued<BR>
> forth:<BR>
><BR>
>> I forget the name of the Lovecraftian<BR>
>> critters who fly between the worlds on wings that catch the currents of<BR>
>> the ether, but I'm pretty sure that they are the ones being hinted at.<BR>
><BR>
> Mi-Go?<BR>
<BR>
That's it! <BR>
<BR>
Just remember, *you* said it, not me. <eg><BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:45:02 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Retrotech Calculators<BR>
>><BR>
> <snip><BR>
>><BR>
>>Sounds like the one I have (got it from my father-in-law, or rather,<BR>
>>from cleaning out the garage after he left.) ...it was a gimmie from<BR>
>>Monsanto; that little card is packed with more stuff on it; double sided<BR>
>>and has about 5 or 6 tables on each side. Came with a little plastic<BR>
>>cleeve and an instruction manual.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Quite a nifty little device.<BR>
><BR>
>         That's the one - My GF got his from Hunter Engineering, for whom he worked<BR>
> for several years after retiring from Kaiser.  I guess someone made up a<BR>
> whole bunch and then printed logos to order.  Far more useful that some of<BR>
> the promo gimmies that they sell these days.  It certainly was a nifty<BR>
> little device.<BR>
<BR>
They sold them to high school students for a few bucks, too.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 22:54:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Fatigue Factor and Suits (not quite as long)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson writes:<BR>
>>>When I wrote that the container could be opened while against the<BR>
>>>body, I took it for granted that you would understand that it could<BR>
>>>then be closed while against the body.<BR>
>>You'd still have some hassles with the (rather large) amount of fluid<BR>
>>that might be clinging to the body. I suspect the absorbent cover (or<BR>
>>even fill) might be a *much* easier design.<BR>
><BR>
>         I don't see why anything more than a little surface dampness<BR>
>         would be left, and a cloth wipe or absorbant ring around the<BR>
>         bottle opening would take care of that if you are really worried<BR>
>         about it.<BR>
<BR>
Try a film a couple mm thick. Maybe more. Surface tension can do a lot<BR>
in zero g.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:52:48 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: GT Modular Starship Design<BR>
<BR>
It's changed.  The GT ship design is built using GURPS vehicles.  <BR>
<BR>
On 14 Jul 2000, at 2:49, DaveShayne wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Okay. So I finally picked up Gurps Traveller (2nd Ed) from my FLGS.<BR>
> <BR>
> And I have a question regarding bay weapons. Bays are listed as<BR>
> requiring 10 internal spaces. On the theory that 1 space = 1 CT ton<BR>
> shouldn't that be 100 spaces? Or have the powers that be decided to<BR>
> reduce the space requirements for bay weapons?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks for your kind attention to my no doubt horrendously silly<BR>
> question,<BR>
> <BR>
> Dave Shayne<BR>
> <BR>
> "I'm all lost in the supermarket,<BR>
>    I can no longer shop happily,<BR>
>    I came in here for the special offer<BR>
>    Guaranteed Personality" - Strummer/Jones (The Clash)<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:37:09 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Alien Races 3<BR>
<BR>
>>> > > Dom (what's that Batwinged Creature outside?)<BR>
>>> ><BR>
>>> >Ummmm... a bat?<BR>
>>> <BR>
>>> Nooooo - it's man sized....<BR>
<BR>
>No, think "Fungi from Yuggoth". I forget the name of thre Lovecraftian<BR>
>critters who fly between the worlds on wings that catch the currents of<BR>
>the ether, but I'm pretty sure that they are the ones being hinted at<BR>
<BR>
Mi-go, Byakhee and Nightgaunts all do that.<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Yaskoydray Esklayloyt wgah'nagl fhtagn!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:04:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
on 7/14/00 9:20 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> No no no no<BR>
> <BR>
> John Woo MUST direct it ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> (scenes of Imperal Scouts diving across rooms with two gauss pistols<BR>
> spraying death into the evil pirates...)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:10:20 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/14/00 5:44 PM, Michael Scanlon at Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Form what little I do know about ballistics in this day and age, as I'm a<BR>
> little out of touch with the Traveler specifics at the moment; yes there<BR>
> seems little use in weraing a vest if up against a large enough calibre<BR>
> round. It tends to make an easier target, rather than help the person it's<BR>
> meant to be protecting. Though this is only true for more powerfull rounds,<BR>
> not what vests are built for; which would be shrapnel and small calibre<BR>
> rounds.<BR>
> I may stand corrected, though this is how I percieve the situ.<BR>
> <BR>
> Michael<BR>
<BR>
In general, wearing a vest is always a good idea.  Starting with the ALCLAD<BR>
study and going forward, it has been repeatedly shown that even when a round<BR>
penetrates a vest, the damage is significantly reduced, and normally fatal<BR>
wounds are often rendered 'merely' serious.<BR>
<BR>
Always take every advantage you can get.  It all adds up. Adding a vest<BR>
doesn't typically make you an easier target, and it could save you butt.<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:28:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/14/00 4:31 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> FFS2 wasnt adequately tested against anything. The playtest period was,<BR>
> like, two weeks.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'd love you to go right ahead with rejigging FFS2 for big ammo (actually a<BR>
> bunch of examples for how to build a CPR gun in FFS2 would be great - oh<BR>
> yeah, and Recoiless Rifle rules too).<BR>
<BR>
My plan is simple.  Build a huge number of RL guns and compare them to FFS2.<BR>
Note trends and look at simple ways to correct things.<BR>
<BR>
And anyone know who thought up this ideal barrel stuff?  We are defining gun<BR>
energy as part of the design phase.  Why do we need theoretical optimum<BR>
barrel length?  It doesn't make any sense.<BR>
> <BR>
> The only issue is the knock-on effects to make things like backpack lasers<BR>
> competitive.<BR>
<BR>
Knock-on?  I'm not sure what this is.  Certainly the recoil of a weapon will<BR>
be important.  Yes, you can build a 5 lb .50BMG rifle.  Would anyone want to<BR>
shoot it?<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> BTW, while I'm here, does anyone know enough about ballistics to either<BR>
> explain or justify effective body armour at TL9-12 ?<BR>
> <BR>
> My problem is that it seems remarkably simple to build weapons that punch<BR>
> huge amounts of body armour.<BR>
<BR>
Body armor got short shrift in FFS2.  The authors apparently weren't aware<BR>
of effectiveness of modern body armor.  As I've noted before, for example,<BR>
one can purchase today, a lightweight shield (10-15kg) that will stop just<BR>
about any rifle round (threat level IV).  This seems to be impossible under<BR>
FFS2.  Armor just get heavier.  Hadn't they ever heard of light-weight<BR>
composites?<BR>
<BR>
Minor nits:  Densities of several materials are just plain wrong. Some data<BR>
looks severely fudged, or possibly just made up.  Full report when I finish<BR>
my analysis<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:56:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jul 00, at 6:28, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/14/00 4:31 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > FFS2 wasnt adequately tested against anything. The playtest period was,<BR>
> > like, two weeks.<BR>
<BR>
> > I'd love you to go right ahead with rejigging FFS2 for big ammo (actually a<BR>
> > bunch of examples for how to build a CPR gun in FFS2 would be great - oh<BR>
> > yeah, and Recoiless Rifle rules too).<BR>
<BR>
> My plan is simple.  Build a huge number of RL guns and compare them to FFS2.<BR>
> Note trends and look at simple ways to correct things.<BR>
<BR>
> And anyone know who thought up this ideal barrel stuff?  We are defining gun<BR>
> energy as part of the design phase.  Why do we need theoretical optimum barrel<BR>
> length?  It doesn't make any sense.<BR>
<BR>
Its an artificial construct to enable the effects of differing barrel lengths to <BR>
be taken into account (G3G has a similar construct), maybe calling it <BR>
"Default barrel length" would be better. I think a lot of the problems can be <BR>
traced to receiver design. They all seem to come out way too long and way <BR>
too heavy. When I design guns using my spreadsheet, I cheat, ignore the <BR>
minimum case and reciever values and enter something more realistic. It <BR>
gives much better results.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:40:26 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:09 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: MOS<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>> Unless I'm missing something, that would be the M113 armored personnel<BR>
>>carrier.  A variant had the Vulcan miniguns (and a *lot* of ammo) mounted<BR>
>>on the top deck and was designated (IIRC) the M125.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Back around 1974 or so the 82nd at Bragg still had "tub mounted" towed<BR>
versions of the Vulcan.  I know as I remember fireing  one at my ROTC 6 week<BR>
summer training.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:20:07 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/14/00 5:48:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  James writes for GURPS Traveller: he is co-author on John M. Ford's GT:<BR>
>  Starports, and has published 8 articles in JTAS since its resurrection<BR>
>  online. If that constitutes an attack on Traveller, we need many more of<BR>
>  the same. James Maliszewski has done more to "convince a larger audience<BR>
>  that Traveller is alive and well" than most, and he deserves better from<BR>
>  this forum.<BR>
<BR>
Seconded. I've known James for 'years' as an old HIWGer and I was happy to <BR>
see him back and writing for Traveller again and have been anxiously awaiting <BR>
to see him redo some material of his for GURPs (even if I don't care for <BR>
GURPs as a rules set).<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 09:47:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
<BR>
At 07:45 PM 7/14/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
><BR>
>>Never been to Amsterdam, have you?  :P<BR>
><BR>
>    A couple of times, why?<BR>
<BR>
As I recall, the age of consent is 16, and the sex clubas are.. interesting.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 10:37:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: cultural commentary<BR>
<BR>
This is not really about Ditzie, so bear with me.<BR>
<BR>
>>From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Ditzie & BD<BR>
>><BR>
>>> The _Older_ Ditzie, 'fer cryin' out loud, the Older Ditzie!!  Jeeez, my<BR>
mind may be in the gutter, but I don't need a periscope yet!<BR>
>>><BR>
>>    The Older Ditzie is 15 or 16 yo.  15/16 yo girls (or boys for that<BR>
matter) & BDSM DO NOT MIX.<BR>
>><BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, when my House of Ataniell novels come out, I'm gonna warn<BR>
you:  you might not like 'em.  In the Khalinghaarin Empire, you are an adult<BR>
when you've either passed through the warrior rites or menstruated, or in<BR>
some cases both.  And people have sex there, and it being a large Empire<BR>
settled without benefit of Christianity and its associated sexual<BR>
prohibitions, they tend to have the kinds of sex that members of Imperial<BR>
courts have been having pretty much as long as there have been Empires.  The<BR>
Emperor's favorite consort, a generally happy character who wields his<BR>
substantial power with a sunny smile, is a boy in his middle teens.<BR>
<BR>
The "18=age of consent" equation is pretty much unique to late 20th-early<BR>
21st century Western culture.  Which isn't the setting for either Traveller<BR>
or my novels.<BR>
<BR>
The idea of a 16 yo girl participating in non-standard sexual activities<BR>
might squick you, and it might squick a lot of people on the list, and we<BR>
don't HAVE to discuss it here, but I feel compelled to point out that this<BR>
is far from a universal reaction-- I have friends in Japan who'd think this<BR>
whole discussion was silly once we had established we were not thinking<BR>
about prepubescent Ditzie.<BR>
<BR>
Pretty much the "age of consent" varies from about 12-14 in some cultures to<BR>
as late as 21 in others.  The only universal is that most peoples, with the<BR>
possible exception of political marriages that weren't consummated until<BR>
adulthood, have been squicked by the idea of sex before puberty, when the<BR>
body isn't set up to have or to want it.<BR>
<BR>
There's no reason at all to assume that the prevailing sexual morality of<BR>
this era and this culture is in force in any TU but your own, and then<BR>
mostly because you want it to be.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                                -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2766<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2767</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2767<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: cultural commentary<BR>
Re: cultural commentary<BR>
Allegiance Codes...<BR>
Re: cultural commentary<BR>
Re: cultural commentary<BR>
Ditzie and Growing Up<BR>
Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Megacorp Logos?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2759<BR>
Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:54:02 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: cultural commentary<BR>
<BR>
Moin Kiri Aradia Morgan,<BR>
<BR>
> The "18=age of consent" equation is pretty much unique to late 20th-early<BR>
> 21st century Western culture.  Which isn't the setting for either Traveller<BR>
> or my novels.<BR>
<BR>
  We may discuss if 6-12-18 or 7-14-21 development is human typical.<BR>
  It may depend on nutrion facts, and other cultural reasons. Both<BR>
  are used within cultures to call for various stages of adulthood.<BR>
<BR>
  I prefer the 'jewish' way of 7 as it gives numbers compatible to starship<BR>
  calculations and as they have to free their friends from debt on any 7th<BR>
  birthday - its called 'jubeljahre' for a good reason.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:47:29 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: cultural commentary<BR>
<BR>
At 10:37 AM 7/15/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>The idea of a 16 yo girl participating in non-standard sexual activities<BR>
>might squick you, and it might squick a lot of people on the list, and we<BR>
>don't HAVE to discuss it here, but I feel compelled to point out that this<BR>
>is far from a universal reaction-- I have friends in Japan who'd think this<BR>
>whole discussion was silly once we had established we were not thinking<BR>
>about prepubescent Ditzie.<BR>
><BR>
>Kiri<BR>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
<BR>
Yes, we don't - so let's not. Instead take it to a bdsm list and type to<BR>
your hearts content.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:51:30 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
From the depths of my highly haphazard hard drive archives...originally<BR>
appeared on the GEnie Traveller boards if I recall correctly.<BR>
 <BR>
*********************************<BR>
Name: ALLEGIANCE.CODES<BR>
Address: LSP.MEYERS  Date: 900404<BR>
Description:  This file includes all of the allegiance codes that I know of.<BR>
Various sources are all brought together in one place. Please look at this and<BR>
make comments and corrections.<BR>
 ---------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Atlas of the Imperium (Second Survey) codes<BR>
:--------------------------------------------<BR>
Am  Amondiage                                   Reft<BR>
As  Aslan (general)<BR>
Aw  (Aslan Clan W)                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Bs  Belgardian Sojourn                          Trojan Reach<BR>
Ca  Principality of Caledon                     Reaver's Deep<BR>
Cb  Carrillian Assembly                         Reaver's Deep<BR>
Cd  Confederation of Duncinae                   Reaver's Deep<BR>
Ch  (Chirper?)                                  The Old Expanses<BR>
Cs  Client State (of the Imperium)<BR>
Ct                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Da  Darrian Confederation                       The Spinward Marches<BR>
Dg                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Dr  Droyne                                      The Spinward Marches<BR>
En                                              The Old Expanses<BR>
Es  Esperanza                                   Reft<BR>
Fa  Federation of Arden                         The Spinward Marches<BR>
Fh  Federation of Heron                         Glimmerdrift Reaches<BR>
Fl  (Florian League?)                           Trojan Reach<BR>
Ga                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Gf  Glimmerdrift Spread                         Glimmerdrift Reaches<BR>
Gk                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Gl  Glorious Empire                             Glimmerdrift Reaches<BR>
Go  Gerontacrcy of Ormine                       Dark Nebula<BR>
Gr                                              Trojan Reach<BR>
Hl  Hegemony of Lorean                          Empty Quarter<BR>
Hv  Hive Federation<BR>
Id  Isaiat Dominate                             Reaver's Deep<BR>
Im  Imperium<BR>
Jo  Joyeuse                                     Reft<BR>
Jr  Julian Protectorate<BR>
Kk  K'Kree<BR>
Kl                                              Ley<BR>
La  League of Antares                           Antares<BR>
Ly                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Ma  Grand Duchy of Marlheim                     Reaver's Deep<BR>
Na  Non-Aligned (Human)<BR>
Nb  Neubayern                                   Reft<BR>
Nc  New Colchis                                 Reft<BR>
Nh  New Home                                    Reft<BR>
Oc  (Oceanus?)                                  Reaver's Deep<BR>
Ok                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Po                                              The Old Expanses<BR>
Pu  (Purity Union?)                             Reaver's Deep<BR>
Ra  Ral Ranta                                   Hinterworlds<BR>
Sa  Sansterre                                   Reft<BR>
Sb  Serendip Belt                               Reft<BR>
Sf  Senlis Foederate                            Trojan Reach<BR>
Sl                                              Glimmerdrift Reaches<BR>
So  Solomani Confederation<BR>
Sw  Sworld Worlds Confederation                 The Spinward Marches<BR>
Sy  Sylean Federation                           Core<BR>
Ta                                              Reaver's Deep<BR>
Uh  Ulane Hierate (?Union of Harmony)<BR>
Va  Vargr (Non-Aligned)<BR>
Ve  Vegan Autonomous District                   Solomani Rim<BR>
Zh  Zhodani Consulate<BR>
Zl  (Zhodani Client)                            Trojan Reach<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Alien Module 3-Vargr codes:<BR>
- ---------------------------<BR>
Vd  Dzen Aeng Kho (Society of Equals)           Gvurrdon<BR>
Ve  Ekhelle Ksafi (40th Squadron)               Gvurrdon<BR>
Vg  Gaerr Thue (Pact of Gaerr)                  Gvurrdon<BR>
Vk  Kedzudh Aeng (Commonality of Kedzudh)       Gvurrdon<BR>
Vn  Rukh Aegz (Worlds of Leader Rukh)           Gvurrdon<BR>
Vp  Thirz Uerra (Thirz Empire)                  (Gvurrdon)<BR>
Vr  Gnoerrgh Rukh Lloell (Anti-Rukh Coalition)  Gvurrdon<BR>
Vs  Saeknouth Igz (Saeknouth Dependency)        Gvurrdon<BR>
Vt  Thoengling Raghz (Thoengling Empire)        (Gvurrdon)<BR>
<BR>
Vu  Urukhu (Nation of Urukhu)                   Gvurrdon<BR>
<BR>
codes (I forget the source) as assigned by me:<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------<BR>
Bv  The Biumvirate                              Far Frontiers<BR>
Dh  Descarothe Hegemony                         Far Frontiers<BR>
Fs  Federation of Alsas                         Far Frontiers<BR>
Hc  Haladon Cooperative                         Far Frontiers<BR>
Ls  The League of Suns                          Far Frontiers<BR>
Pr  The Protectorate                            Far Frontiers<BR>
Sc  Salinaikin Concordance                      Far Frontiers<BR>
Td  The Trelyn Domain                           Far Frontiers<BR>
Ug  The Union of Garth                          Far Frontiers<BR>
Za  Domain of Alntzar                           Far Frontiers<BR>
Zc  Colonade Administration District<BR>
Zf  The Four Worlds                             Far Frontiers<BR>
Zm  Mnemosyne Principality                      Far Frontiers<BR>
Zp  The Zelphic Primacy                         Far Frontiers<BR>
<BR>
post Fifth Frontier War allegiances:<BR>
- ------------------------------------<BR>
Bw  Border Worlds                               The Spinward Marches<BR>
Sw  Sword Worlds Confederation                  The Spinward Marches<BR>
SW  Sword Worlds Union                          The Spinward Marches<BR>
<BR>
Useful additional codings:<BR>
- --------------------------<BR>
A#  Aslan Tlaukhu Clan (# is a letter)<BR>
A*  Aslan Clan (* is a letter)<BR>
V*  Vargr (*)<BR>
Z*  Zhodani Client (*)<BR>
<BR>
Hinterworlds codes (Challenge 39):<BR>
- ----------------------------------<BR>
Ac  Anubian Trade Coalition                     Hinterworlds<BR>
Cu  Cytrialin Unity                             (Hinterworlds)<BR>
Gi  Gniivi                                      (Hinterworlds)<BR>
Lp  Council of Leh Perash                       (Hinterworlds)<BR>
Ow  Outcasts of the Whispering Sky              Hinterworlds<BR>
<BR>
Factions of the Rebellion codes:<BR>
- --------------------------------<BR>
Dd  Domain of Deneb<BR>
Fd  Federation of Daibei<BR>
Fi  Federation of Ilelish<BR>
La  League of Antares<BR>
Li  Lucan's Imperium<BR>
Mf  Margaret<BR>
St  Strephon's Imperium<BR>
Zs  Ziru Sirka<BR>
<BR>
Vargr Extents (from MTAv1) codes:<BR>
- ---------------------------------<BR>
Va  Vargr (Non-Aligned)<BR>
Vb  Bakne Alliance<BR>
Vc  Ant-Rukh Coalition                          Gvurrdon<BR>
Vd  Democracy of Greats<BR>
Ve  Empire of Varroerth<BR>
Vf  Dzarrgh Federate<BR>
Vg  Glory of Taarskoerzn<BR>
Vh  Irrgh Manifest<BR>
Vi  Llaeghskath Interacterate                   Provence<BR>
Vj  Jihad of Faarzgaen                          Provence<BR>
Vk  Commonality of Kedzudh<BR>
Vl  Lair Protectorate                           Provence<BR>
Vm  Members of Knaeleng                         Dhuerorrg<BR>
Vn  Ngath Confederation<BR>
Vo  Opposition Alliance<BR>
Vp  Thirz Empire<BR>
Vq  Society of Equals                           Gvurrdon<BR>
Vr  Worlds of Leader Rukh                       Gvurrdon<BR>
Vs  Saeknoth Dependency                         Gvurrdon<BR>
Vt  Thoengling Empire<BR>
Vu  United Followers of Augurgh<BR>
Vv  Voekhaeb Society<BR>
Vw  People of Wanz                              Tuglikki<BR>
Vx  Antares Pact<BR>
Vy  Yfagg Congress<BR>
Vz  Worlds of Master Zer<BR>
V1  First Fleet of Dzo<BR>
V2  Windhorn Pact of Two                        Tuglikki<BR>
V3  Third Empire of GashikanV4  40th Sqaudron<BR>
V5  Ruler of Five<BR>
V6  Assemblage of 1116                          Tuglikki<BR>
V7  17th Disjuncture<BR>
V8  Council of the Four-Pair                    Lishun<BR>
V9  Infinity League                             Knoellighz<BR>
V0  Akhorgh Seperate                            Fa Dzaets<BR>
VA  Alliance of Tju<BR>
VB  Brzeh Council                               Ghoeknael<BR>
VC  Hezeraek Connective<BR>
VD  Delegation of Targhae                       Kharrthon<BR>
VE  Agents of Eloeghoe                          Listanaya<BR>
VF  Far Stars Unanimity                         Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh<BR>
VG  Glorious Sons of RaekVH  Tyryk Hegemony<BR>
VJ  Authority of Joekghr                        Kfazz Ghik<BR>
VK  Koenotz Empire<BR>
VL  League Alliance                             Listanaya<BR>
VM  Mazaroegh Dominion                          Ogadogorz<BR>
VN  Drr'lana Network<BR>
VP  Kechk Pact                                  Ksinanirz<BR>
<BR>
VQ  Union of Yoetyqq                            Gashikan<BR>
VR  Kechk Reversion                             Ksinanirz<BR>
VS  Jarrgh Subjugate                            Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh<BR>
VT  Trae Aggregation                            Trenchans<BR>
VU  Union of Seekers                            Rzakki<BR>
VX  Vaoekghirkhr Exchange<BR>
VZ  Ruzz Confederation                          Rzakki<BR>
<BR>
Allegiances by sector from Atlas of the Imperium:<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------<BR>
The Spinward Marches  Cs,Da,Dr,Fa,Im,Na,Sw,Va,Zh<BR>
Deneb                 Cs,Im,Na,Va<BR>
Corridor              Cs,Im,Na,Va<BR>
Vland                 Cs,Im,Na,Va<BR>
Lishun                Cs,Im,Na,Va<BR>
Antares               Cs,Im,Jr,La,Na,Va<BR>
Empty Quarter         Cs,Hl,Im,Jr,Na<BR>
Trojan Reach          As,Bs,Cs,Fl,Gl,Im,Na,Sf,Zl<BR>
Reft                  Am,Cs,Es,Im,Jo,Na,Nb,Nc,Nh,Sa,Sb<BR>
Gushemege             Cs,Im,Na<BR>
Dagudashag            Im<BR>
Core                  Im,Sy<BR>
Fornast               Im<BR>
Ley                   Cs,Im,Kl,Na<BR>
Riftspan Reaches      As,Na<BR>
Verge                 As,Im,Na<BR>
Ilelish               Cs,Im<BR>
Zarushagar            Cs,Im,Na<BR>
Massilia              Im<BR>
Delphi                Cs,Im,Na<BR>
Glimmerdrift Reaches  Cs,Gf,Gr,Im,Na,Fh,Sl<BR>
Hlakhoi               As<BR>
Ealiyasiyw            As,Id,Na<BR>
Reaver's Deep<BR>
As,Aw,Ca,Cb,Cd,Cs,Ct,Dg,Ga,Gk,Id,Im,Ly,Ma,Na,Oc,Ok,Pu,So,Ta,Uh<BR>
Daibei                Cs,Im,Na<BR>
Diaspora              Im<BR>
The Old Expanses      Cs,Ch,En,Im,Na,Po,So<BR>
Hinterworlds          Cs,Im,Na,Ra<BR>
Staihaia'Yo           As<BR>
Iwahfuah              As<BR>
Dark Nebula           As,Go,Na,So,Uh<BR>
Magyar                Im,So<BR>
Solomani Rim          Im,So,Ve<BR>
Alpha Crucis          Im,Ma,So<BR>
Spica                 Hv,Na,So<BR>
<BR>
Allegiances by sector from Alien Module 3-Vargr:<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------<BR>
Gvurrdon              Cs,Na,Va,Vd,Ve,Vg,Vk,Vn,Vp,Vr,Vs,Vt,Vu,Zh<BR>
<BR>
Allegiances by sector from (I forget the source) as assigned by me:<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Far Frontiers         Bv,Dh,Fs,Hc,Ls,Na,Pr,Sc,Td,Ug,Za,Zc,Zf,Zm,Zp<BR>
<BR>
    I have yet to do this for the post second survey (ie. Rebellion) data<BR>
since it is by definition incomplete and changing.<BR>
<BR>
    Any allegiance code eclosed in parentheses and with question mark<BR>
indicates that I have some question as to the validity.  This is mostly<BR>
because I can not recall all of the sources (and their official status).<BR>
Any sector names in parentheses indicate that the government apparently<BR>
overlaps other sector(s) but they are not published.<BR>
<BR>
    The FFW resulted in the partial break-up of the Sword Worlds<BR>
Confederation.  The Spinward Marches Campaign called the new state the<BR>
Border Worlds.  MTAv1 lists a new state called the Sword Worlds Union.  The<BR>
two are most likely related, but how is not published.<BR>
<BR>
    More codes probably exist. I'll try to keep this updated, so pass on<BR>
your comments!<BR>
<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2768</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/16/00 9:13:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2768<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Megacorp Logos?<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2762<BR>
Re: Ditzie and BD<BR>
RE: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
RE: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
RE: Symptom of Age, the Movie Version<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Megacorp Logos?<BR>
ACQ<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
FFS2 Barrel length (Technical)<BR>
RE: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:53:18 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Megacorp Logos?<BR>
<BR>
on 7/15/00 6:19 PM, Charles Collin at charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all.  What canonical info exists on the logos for the various<BR>
> Megacorps?  I'm wondering about SuSag, Makhidrakhun, LSP, etc...<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I see a collection in GT: Behind the claw.  And some of them are really<BR>
ugly.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:03:55 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/15/00 3:17 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
> OK, lets assume you make high-caliber CPR guns more effective, and make body<BR>
> armour more effective as well. What used to be an effective battlefield<BR>
> manpack laser is now ineffective. So if we want manpack lasers, then we need<BR>
> to make them more effective too.<BR>
<BR>
Once lasers have the damage potential of KE small arms, they become very<BR>
desirable.  Advantages:  No recoil, no ballistic arc, zero time of flight.<BR>
> <BR>
> As to would anyone want to shoot a .50 cal rifle, if widespread body armour<BR>
> makes the current small caliber rifles obsolete, then I guess anyone who<BR>
> wants an effective battlefield small arm will get one.<BR>
<BR>
Small arms will still be limited by what the soldier can carry or use, as<BR>
well as by cost and logistics.  Point target weapons don't really seem to be<BR>
the wave of the future, anyway.  The weapons have the accuracy, the soldiers<BR>
just can't hit anything.<BR>
<BR>
Salvo weapons or area target ammunition (e.g. 20mm OICW) seem to be the next<BR>
generation.<BR>
> Yeah, but will it stop an anti-tank rifle ? A 20mm HEAP rocket ? Cluster<BR>
> bomblets ? And I'm just talking about TL6-8.<BR>
<BR>
No, but that isn't a requirement (BTW, cluster bomblets--maybe).  Personnel<BR>
armor is generally designed to counter the weapons most likely used.  And<BR>
armor doesn't have to be 100% effective to be useful.  Wounds can be<BR>
dramatically reduced in severity by body armor even if it isn't fully<BR>
effective. Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, my wife sent me this, but there some good examples of modern armor<BR>
<BR>
http://www.21stcenturyhardarmor.com<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:05:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> First I'd like to apologies for my outburst, I stand by what I said, but I <BR>
> probably could have said it better. However, I think we should all keep in <BR>
> mind that whilst the great majority of member of this list are "mature", <BR>
> Traveller is a game (at least hopefully) also played by young adolesents.<BR>
> <BR>
I started playing Traveller at the age of 16.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew, I'm dreadfully sorry that you had such an awful experience; I've<BR>
had a few nasty experiences myself, though they occurred in adulthood.  <BR>
However, I would feel better if I could help you understand that I didn't<BR>
make it to the age of 18 virgo intacta and I *didn't* have a horrible<BR>
experience... and that no one involved in the thread at any level is<BR>
advocating or laughing at the thought of either sex with children too<BR>
young to physically enjoy the experience OR non-consensual activity of any<BR>
kind at any age.  Everyone was pretty clear on the idea that we were not<BR>
even JOKING about the 7 year old.<BR>
<BR>
I sort of resented the implication that I had hurt you; someone hurt you,<BR>
and I would cheerfully have them taken out and shot, but that person was<BR>
not me.  I was raped during Beatles Weekend on the local radio station in<BR>
college, and there is a certain song that I prefer not to hear, but I<BR>
don't consider people who play that song to be hurting me, I just ask them<BR>
to turn it off or leave the room when it comes on.<BR>
<BR>
I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't said anything on list<BR>
that I wouldn't say in front of my mother or in front of any of the<BR>
younger gamers or anime fans I associate with.  (Though I admit to not<BR>
having read the entire thread, it was a joke and I saw nothing explicit.)<BR>
<BR>
I also believe that younger people are better armed to resist<BR>
nonconsensual behavior on the part of adults or other adolescents if we<BR>
don't censor our speech too much in their presence or protect them from<BR>
hearing about the genuine dangers out there.  Ignorance on the part of<BR>
young people is one of the things that predators use against them.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not really sure even now what sorts of things you would like not to<BR>
hear; the question of what the age of consent might be in various cultures<BR>
in various TU's is a valid one and even on topic, but does that upset<BR>
you?  It would be good to know-- it's hard to respect boundaries that have<BR>
never been articulated.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:28:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Bruce Long" <brucelong-kyot@mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2762<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:34:48 -0700<BR>
From: "Robert Snyder" <robert_snyder@prontomail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie and BD<BR>
<BR>
This mailing list sure has some interesting (and bizarre) threads.  I <BR>
almost think I'm on a sex mailing list.  Perhaps it is because most <BR>
of us are men and sex is never far from our mind.<BR>
<BR>
I also frequently check a bulletin board about LA Strip Clubs and <BR>
sometimes join the chat sessions.  This Strip Club forum is far more <BR>
restrained then this Traveller mailing list.  At least there they <BR>
don't talk about BD with 6 yo girls (or even 15 yo girls).  There we <BR>
confine our lustful attentions to girls 18+ yo. <BR>
<BR>
Looking at the pictures I thought Ditzie was about 12 or so.  <BR>
Winifreda (the older Ditzie, the babe) looks like she was at least 18 <BR>
if not more like 20 or so.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Free E-mail and Homepage at http://www.prontomail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 23:55:01 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Once lasers have the damage potential of KE small arms, they become very<BR>
> desirable.  Advantages:  No recoil, no ballistic arc, zero time of flight.<BR>
<BR>
According to TNE, lasers below TL13 have significant loss due to absorption<BR>
in the atmosphere. This energy which is absorbed by the atmosphere will<BR>
appear in lots of different ways, depending on the wavelength of the laser,<BR>
the composition of the atmosphere, etc. I did a few calculations quite a<BR>
while ago, and I don't remember the exact numbers, but even assuming that a<BR>
small fraction of this energy becomes noise, you will get an extremely load<BR>
CRACK from laser weapons below TL13. I think that the impulse noise was<BR>
something like 220 dB, assuming a fairly low conversion of the absorbed<BR>
laser energy into acoustic energy. So low TL lasers probably also require<BR>
hearing protection for the operator also. Maybe active noise cancellation,<BR>
tailored to filer the frequencies created by the weapon.<BR>
<BR>
This may be a useful effect of the weapon also. If you suddenly experience a<BR>
200 dB+ noise near you, say from a near miss of a laser weapon, you will not<BR>
be hearing well for a while. You will also probably duck for cover fairly<BR>
quickly.<BR>
<BR>
This reminds me of a set of rules which I used to play years ago, something<BR>
like Old West Gunfight Rules. In this system, if you experience a near-miss<BR>
(I don't remember the exact definition of any other details) you were forced<BR>
to cower in fear for a number of phases. This made covering fire fairly<BR>
useful. The guy who GMed one of our old Gamma World games used a modified<BR>
version of these rules to integrate guns into the GW game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:57:16 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 22:52:20 -0700<BR>
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>on 7/15/00 8:20 PM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:<BR>
>> Every kind of ammunition has it's own Ideal barrel length(it could be a<BR>
>> range of lengths.) If a round is fired out of a shorter than optimum<BR>
length<BR>
>> barrel not all of the propellant is burned before the bullet leaves the<BR>
>> muzzle<BR>
>> resulting in a degredation of usefull range and a pronounced muzzle<BR>
flash.<BR>
>> If a round is fired from a weapon with a longer barrel than optimum the<BR>
>> gas expansion from the propellant eventually moves slower than the bullet<BR>
>> thereby imparting no extra energy to the round. If all your trying to do<BR>
is<BR>
>> create the optimum match of weapon with ammunition you will design a<BR>
>> weapon with the *Ideal Barrel Length* for the ammunition in question.<BR>
><BR>
>This totally ignores the fact that various propellants have different burn<BR>
>rates.  I would not expect Bullseye to have the same 'ideal' barrel length<BR>
>as a charge of H4895 even were they both pushing the same bullet.  Correct<BR>
>matching of propellant to application is vital.<BR>
><BR>
>Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
It doesn't ignore it. 1 round of ammunition is the bullet and the propellant<BR>
required<BR>
for firing it. FFS1 & 2 both ignore differences in propellant composition. I<BR>
assume<BR>
because those books assume that the most efficient propellant will be used.<BR>
<BR>
Also because a good rule for it would be hard to come by. The ballistics<BR>
text that<BR>
I read lo these many years ago glossed over "Internal Ballistics" on the<BR>
basis that<BR>
it didn't lend itself to hard and fast rules. If I recall correctly he gave<BR>
the example<BR>
of the 16" guns on US battleships. Apparently if you used the powder from<BR>
say<BR>
an M1 rifle in one of the big guns the gun would blow up. Or maybe it's the<BR>
other way around I don't really remember. The essential point for our<BR>
purposes is that<BR>
given any bullet/propellant mix there will be an ideal length for the barrel<BR>
of a weapon firing that round. That Ideal length will be long enough for the<BR>
propellant<BR>
to completely combust without being so long that the bullet is travelling<BR>
faster than the expanding gas of the propellant at the muzzle. Any other<BR>
configuration either wastes propellant or wastes barrel.<BR>
<BR>
There are indeed situations when it makes sense to create a weapon with a<BR>
longer or shorter barrel than optimum, say an MG chambered to 5.56x45 or<BR>
an SMG that fires 9mm Parabellem, If an already available round is good<BR>
enough why bother creating (and supplying) a custom round.<BR>
<BR>
My big problem with FFS1 (and by extension 2) is the increadible<BR>
discontinuity<BR>
between a 19.99mm Heavy Rifle and a 2cm cannon. Either the rifle is too<BR>
light<BR>
or the cannon is too heavy. (or both)<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 04:02:59 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:51:30 -0700<BR>
>From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
An impresive list. And to think of all the information implicit<BR>
in those 2 charecter codes. Politics/Language/Culture it's<BR>
all there (to some degree or another)<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:33:45 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
J. Paul Sanders wrote :<BR>
> *********************************<BR>
> Name: ALLEGIANCE.CODES<BR>
> Address: LSP.MEYERS  Date: 900404<BR>
> Description:  This file includes all of the allegiance codes that <BR>
> I know of.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for that, most useful. <BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:41:05 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :<BR>
> on 7/14/00 9:20 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
> > No no no no<BR>
> ><BR>
> > John Woo MUST direct it ;)<BR>
> > (scenes of Imperal Scouts diving across rooms with two gauss pistols<BR>
> > spraying death into the evil pirates...)<BR>
<BR>
Or Quentin Tarantino.<BR>
(the bar shoot-out in "Desperado")<BR>
<BR>
> And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
<BR>
Especially when being held by android combat machines just before they<BR>
suicide<BR>
<BR>
"I've seen attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... "<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:42:30 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Symptom of Age, the Movie Version<BR>
<BR>
Rod Basler wrote :<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Well...PG, maybe PG-13.  Remember all the controversy over 'Clockwork<BR>
> Orange'?  It was originally rated X.  Dozen years ago when they rereleased<BR>
> it, the rating was dropped to R, even with the infamous "menage-a-trois in<BR>
> fast motion" scene (which is hysterically funny - nothing like fast motion<BR>
> to distance you from an action and let you see how fundamentally<BR>
> ridiculous it is...)<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't that which made it an X.<BR>
It was the assault and rape of the Cat-Woman with the giant penis sculpture.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, I believe parts of that were cut even from the "X" version released<BR>
in the US.<BR>
<BR>
That, the rape scene at the start, and a couple of acts of random violence,<BR>
such as the old guy beaten to death in the tunnel, were what really lead to<BR>
the ratings.<BR>
<BR>
The sex scenes, such as the one you mentioned and the one in the snow with<BR>
everyone watching were relatively tame for that time, and would only have<BR>
rated an R18 at most. Remember, the "Emmanuel" films are of the same<BR>
vintage, and they had as much 'detail'.<BR>
<BR>
In New Zealand, "Clockwork Orange" was completely banned when it was first<BR>
released, but they let a heavily cut version be shown as an R20 in the early<BR>
eighties. It wasn't until sometime later that we got to se an un-cut<BR>
version.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 03:08:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Trent Smith" <trentfs@ix.netcom.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Or Quentin Tarantino.<BR>
> (the bar shoot-out in "Desperado")<BR>
<BR>
... was directed by Robert Rodriguez.  Despite his reputation for violence,<BR>
Quentin Tarantino's never been much of an "action" director in the<BR>
Peckinpah/Woo sense of choreography and slo-mo and smoke curling and such.<BR>
The violence in his movies is usually more along the lines of a quick,<BR>
usually offscreen, shot/cut followed by long scenes of people covered in<BR>
blood.  However, that may change if he actually goes through with the 'Dirty<BR>
Dozen'-style WWII movie that's been rumored as his next project.<BR>
<BR>
If others can be nit-picky about physics or Traveller canon, then by golly I<BR>
can be nit-picky about movie references!<BR>
<BR>
Carry on,<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:18:54 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/15/00 6:16:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net writes about the Classic Traveller Reprints:<BR>
<BR>
<< <BR>
 I did notice that part of the Fighting Ships and Solomani Rim<BR>
 supplement was repeated in my copy.  Fortunately, it looks like this<BR>
 binding error didn't short me in any of the other supplements as it<BR>
 looks like all the pages are there, with just these 8 pages doubled<BR>
 up.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
So even after all these years there is still errata?? Come on Miller, we're  <BR>
expected to pay almost $30 a shot and we still get haphazard products? Well, <BR>
if nothing else, the Traveller Universe remains consistent. For you loyal <BR>
fans that are preparing to give me a broadside let me give a preemptive <BR>
apology. I love Traveller as much as you and have been as loyal a fan, but <BR>
after the MegaTraveller and especially T4 fiascoes I'm beginning to get numb. <BR>
Look at the money we consumers paid out for T4 only to find it to be the most <BR>
flawed and now in total disuse by most fans, only to be promised T5? Come on! <BR>
Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT book just was <BR>
too typical to not comment on. <BR>
<BR>
Sorry if I offend. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 06:45:33 -0500<BR>
From: "James Pearson" <james@pearson.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Megacorp Logos?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how canonical it is, but G:T Behind the Claw has <BR>
several logos of megacorps based in and around the Spinward <BR>
Marches.  I don't know that I've seen them produced anywhere else <BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jul 2000, at 21:19, Charles Collin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all.  What canonical info exists on the logos for the various<BR>
> Megacorps?  I'm wondering about SuSag, Makhidrakhun, LSP, etc...<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,<BR>
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.<BR>
- -Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5<BR>
http://www.james.pearson.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:02:51 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: ACQ<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BFEF26.25EB3330<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
I just picked up my copy, from Orc's Nest in London. Still reading =<BR>
through it (because I also bought FT: Fleets Book II and GURPS: Vehicles =<BR>
at the same time, and I'm trying to read all three at once...) but it's =<BR>
looking very impressive.<BR>
<BR>
I think I can see a use for all those Space Hulk floor grids...<BR>
<BR>
Actually, that might be an idea for GenCon - anybody got any Space Hulk =<BR>
deck sections? It could make for a wonderful boarding action demo game.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
(polishing BITS badge to a shiny gleam)<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BFEF26.25EB3330<BR>
Content-Type: text/html;<BR>
	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><HEAD><BR>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>I just picked up my copy, from Orc's =<BR>
Nest in=20<BR>
London. Still reading through it (because I also bought FT: Fleets Book =<BR>
II and=20<BR>
GURPS: Vehicles at the same time, and I'm trying to read all three at =<BR>
once...)=20<BR>
but it's looking very impressive.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>I think I&nbsp;can see a use for all =<BR>
those Space=20<BR>
Hulk floor grids...</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Actually, that might be an idea for =<BR>
GenCon -=20<BR>
anybody got any Space Hulk deck sections? It could make for a wonderful =<BR>
boarding=20<BR>
action demo game.</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>Nick</DIV><BR>
<DIV>(polishing BITS&nbsp;badge to&nbsp;a =<BR>
shiny=20<BR>
gleam)</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01BFEF26.25EB3330--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 23:14:54 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <BR>
> And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
<BR>
I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even Tree<BR>
Penguins.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
- ----------------------------------------<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 06:04:52 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
on 7/14/00 9:20 PM, Tsykoduk at Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> No no no no<BR>
> <BR>
> John Woo MUST direct it ;)<BR>
> <BR>
> (scenes of Imperal Scouts diving across rooms with two gauss pistols<BR>
> spraying death into the evil pirates...)<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:43:30 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/15/00 11:55 PM, Luther Martin at lwmarti@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> small fraction of this energy becomes noise, you will get an extremely load<BR>
> CRACK from laser weapons below TL13. I think that the impulse noise was<BR>
> something like 220 dB, assuming a fairly low conversion of the absorbed<BR>
> laser energy into acoustic energy. So low TL lasers probably also require<BR>
> hearing protection for the operator also. Maybe active noise cancellation,<BR>
> tailored to filer the frequencies created by the weapon.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
Yow!  I think a jet engine at the nozzle is only about 180dB, so this is<BR>
1000 times louder !?  That seems awfully high.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:36:10 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> This totally ignores the fact that various propellants have different burn<BR>
> rates.  I would not expect Bullseye to have the same 'ideal' barrel length<BR>
> as a charge of H4895 even were they both pushing the same bullet.  Correct<BR>
> matching of propellant to application is vital.<BR>
<BR>
Please! Ghods!! If you want to design a model that takes into account<BR>
different types of powder, go ahead...but CPR guns are only a part<BR>
of FFS; are you expecting that amount of detail in all of it?? This is a<BR>
game supplement not a RL design handbook. <BR>
<BR>
Besides, that is readily modelled by moving up a TL or so in the<BR>
ammunition design phase...energy density goes up as TL does.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, you really want to check out Greg Porter's Guns Guns Guns 3. This<BR>
is an entire book devoted to, well, gun design. I think it turns out<BR>
better weapons than FFS or FFS2. It should, since it doesn't cover<BR>
starships and groundcraft, too. Greg has a huge list of historical rounds,<BR>
and there are design examples throughout the book.<BR>
<BR>
It translates well into all flavors of Traveller, as well. I like it. Buy<BR>
the spreadsheet set, too. It's very well done. You can get it at:<BR>
http://www.btrc.net <BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:51:29 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: FFS2 Barrel length (Technical)<BR>
<BR>
I lost the original post regarding ideal barrel length, but wanted to reply<BR>
to the frequently held belief that certain barrel lengths are required for<BR>
maximum efficiency so that all the propellant can burn.<BR>
<BR>
In short, this is absolutely wrong.  While this can be true of black powder<BR>
firearms, in the case of modern propellant, almost all of the powder is<BR>
burned in the case, and any unburned powder ejected into the barrel is<BR>
likely to remain so regardless of the length of the barrel.<BR>
<BR>
The barrel length does effect velocity in that the barrel length determines<BR>
the expansion ratio of the propellant, and hence the efficiency of the<BR>
propellant. Short barrels result in loss of potential energy because powder<BR>
gasses are still expanding.  However, too long a barrel means at some point<BR>
the rate of gas expansion will fall below the resistance of the bore to the<BR>
projectile, and the projectile will lose velocity.<BR>
<BR>
This expansion ratio is why enlarging the cartridge case and powder volume<BR>
results in higher velocities.  More chamber volume versus barrel volume<BR>
means a reduction of the expansion ratio, hence the muzzle pressure will be<BR>
higher.  The down side is less efficient utilization of the propellant, and<BR>
muzzle blast and flash will be increased.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 08:54:32 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> > small fraction of this energy becomes noise, you will get an<BR>
> extremely load<BR>
> > CRACK from laser weapons below TL13. I think that the impulse noise was<BR>
> > something like 220 dB, assuming a fairly low conversion of the absorbed<BR>
> > laser energy into acoustic energy. So low TL lasers probably<BR>
> also require<BR>
> > hearing protection for the operator also. Maybe active noise<BR>
> cancellation,<BR>
> > tailored to filer the frequencies created by the weapon.<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> Yow!  I think a jet engine at the nozzle is only about 180dB, so this is<BR>
> 1000 times louder !?  That seems awfully high.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
With the TNE lasers, the problem is that you are dumping an awful lot of<BR>
energy into the air in an awfully short time. I don't remember the exact<BR>
numbers, but TNE laser weapons (rifle, etc) but out a pulse of something<BR>
like 0.1 MJ (!), and the low-TL TNE lasers lose effectiness fairly quickly<BR>
with range. The energy lost from the pulse has to somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 09:12:39 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/16/00 8:36 AM, Bruce Johnson at johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> This totally ignores the fact that various propellants have different burn<BR>
>> rates.  I would not expect Bullseye to have the same 'ideal' barrel length<BR>
>> as a charge of H4895 even were they both pushing the same bullet.  Correct<BR>
>> matching of propellant to application is vital.<BR>
> <BR>
> Please! Ghods!! If you want to design a model that takes into account<BR>
> different types of powder, go ahead...but CPR guns are only a part<BR>
> of FFS; are you expecting that amount of detail in all of it?? This is a<BR>
> game supplement not a RL design handbook.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I don't want to do this.  I merely point out that too much emphasis can be<BR>
placed on things like barrel length.  Ammunition can be optimized for a<BR>
particular role.<BR>
<BR>
My complaint with FFS2 is it really only works for a very narrow range of<BR>
CPR guns (which tend to be the primary armaments of my players).  In playing<BR>
around with systems, it seems that there are several simple fixes that could<BR>
correct some of the worst problems.  For a supplement that claims to be "the<BR>
most realistic...design systems ever published for science-fiction<BR>
role-playing" (from the back cover), it's got  some real problems.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, I have 3G second edition, and am buying 3G3.  Thanks for the URL.  I<BR>
figured these folks were long out of business.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2769</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 16 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2769<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Current Threads<BR>
Starport Generatiom, pt1 (long)<BR>
Starport Generation, pt2 (long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:42:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
Excellent post Paul....Greatly appreciated!!!<BR>
<BR>
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence><BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 1:51 PM<BR>
Subject: Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> From the depths of my highly haphazard hard drive archives...originally<BR>
> appeared on the GEnie Traveller boards if I recall correctly.<BR>
><BR>
> *********************************<BR>
> Name: ALLEGIANCE.CODES<BR>
> Address: LSP.MEYERS  Date: 900404<BR>
> Description:  This file includes all of the allegiance codes that I know<BR>
of.<BR>
> Various sources are all brought together in one place. Please look at this<BR>
and<BR>
> make comments and corrections.<BR>
>  ---------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:41:52 +0100<BR>
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
I wrote,<BR>
> I am tempted to start generating the sectors which really *are* blank<BR>
> slates ATM, beginning with Windhorn (df)<BR>
<BR>
Well, the temptation proved too strong. I've generated an initial<BR>
version of Windhorn (matching I believe the info in V&V) which you can<BR>
download from<BR>
<BR>
        http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Sectors/Windhorn.html<BR>
<BR>
If anybody wants to take it further, feel free. Anthony, if you want to<BR>
try generating trade info from it we might be able to see how well<BR>
completely random generation fits with surrounding sectors...<BR>
<BR>
John<BR>
 <BR>
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom<BR>
IMTU tc+ tm+ tn t4(+) tg+ ru ge 3i+ jt au- st ls+ hi++ so- zh+ pi+ jd++<BR>
Traveller IS Forms, Gal2CC, etc: http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:33:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/15/00 3:17 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
> wrote:<BR>
>> OK, lets assume you make high-caliber CPR guns more effective, and<BR>
>> make body armour more effective as well. What used to be an<BR>
>> effective battlefield manpack laser is now ineffective. So if we<BR>
>> want manpack lasers, then we need to make them more effective too.<BR>
><BR>
> Once lasers have the damage potential of KE small arms, they become very<BR>
> desirable.  Advantages:  No recoil, no ballistic arc, zero time of flight.<BR>
<BR>
Disadvantages: huge power packs, beam *highly* visible due to air<BR>
ionization (ie it screams "Here I am!" to everyone in sight), smoke and<BR>
fog can degrade beam.<BR>
<BR>
> Small arms will still be limited by what the soldier can carry or use, as<BR>
> well as by cost and logistics.  Point target weapons don't really seem to be<BR>
> the wave of the future, anyway.  The weapons have the accuracy, the soldiers<BR>
> just can't hit anything.<BR>
<BR>
Which is why some folks are trying to develop "smart bullets". A bullet<BR>
that can "steer" towards an appropriate IR source would be nasty, even<BR>
if it can't change course by more than a few yards at typical cmbat<BR>
ranges.<BR>
<BR>
> Salvo weapons or area target ammunition (e.g. 20mm OICW) seem to be the next<BR>
> generation.<BR>
<BR>
And it'll be interesting seeing the cheap "area" rounds and the more<BR>
expensive "targetting" rounds.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:39:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/15/00 11:55 PM, Luther Martin at lwmarti@pacbell.net wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> small fraction of this energy becomes noise, you will get an extremely load<BR>
>> CRACK from laser weapons below TL13. I think that the impulse noise was<BR>
>> something like 220 dB, assuming a fairly low conversion of the absorbed<BR>
>> laser energy into acoustic energy. So low TL lasers probably also require<BR>
>> hearing protection for the operator also. Maybe active noise cancellation,<BR>
>> tailored to filer the frequencies created by the weapon.<BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> Yow!  I think a jet engine at the nozzle is only about 180dB, so this is<BR>
> 1000 times louder !?  That seems awfully high.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that it's the *intensity* of the sound, not the total<BR>
energy. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:43:35 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <BR>
>> And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
><BR>
> I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even Tree<BR>
> Penguins.<BR>
<BR>
I don't even want to *think* about the sort of evolutionary history<BR>
that could produce *that* species...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:45:55 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:12:42 -0400 (EDT), Olegamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 7/15/00 6:16:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes about the Classic Traveller Reprints:<BR>
<BR>
><< <BR>
> I did notice that part of the Fighting Ships and Solomani Rim<BR>
> supplement was repeated in my copy.  Fortunately, it looks like this<BR>
> binding error didn't short me in any of the other supplements as it<BR>
> looks like all the pages are there, with just these 8 pages doubled<BR>
> up.<BR>
>  >><BR>
<BR>
>So even after all these years there is still errata?? Come on Miller, we're  <BR>
<BR>
"Come on Miller"?!  Damn, you take that tone with me in person<BR>
and you'd get one right across the chops!<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe Marc (that's<BR>
_Mister_ Miller, to the likes of you) _isn't_ immediately and<BR>
directly responsible for the printing and binding, and that he<BR>
sends the job out to a company that specializes in printing and<BR>
binding these things?  And that just maybe it was that company<BR>
that screwed up, and only on a small number, so that quality<BR>
control simply didn't see it?  And that maybe Marc is doing this<BR>
as much for the love of the game, and to satisfy the desires of<BR>
his fans as much as for the money - he didn't _have_ to do it,<BR>
you know - he's got a new version of Traveller in the works, and<BR>
SJG is doing a very nice job of supporting the genre, and the<BR>
project of resurrecting the Classic materials _is_ taking some<BR>
time away from current and future projects/products which are at<BR>
least as eagerly awaited as the Classic Reprints are?<BR>
<BR>
>expected to pay almost $30 a shot and we still get haphazard products? Well, <BR>
>if nothing else, the Traveller Universe remains consistent. For you loyal <BR>
>fans that are preparing to give me a broadside let me give a preemptive <BR>
>apology. I love Traveller as much as you and have been as loyal a fan, but <BR>
>after the MegaTraveller and especially T4 fiascoes I'm beginning to get numb. <BR>
>Look at the money we consumers paid out for T4 only to find it to be the most <BR>
>flawed and now in total disuse by most fans, only to be promised T5? Come on! <BR>
>Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT book just was <BR>
>too typical to not comment on. <BR>
<BR>
So far I have not seen the kind of consistency that you're<BR>
complaining about - it's fairly clear to me that the<BR>
erratafulness of MT and TNE was different in kind from that of T4<BR>
- - and even MT and TNE had differences in kind with respect to<BR>
their problems.  The T4 license was _pulled_ because of issues<BR>
not entirely disconnected from the errata; it seems clear to me<BR>
that Marc was at least as unhappy about IG's output as we were -<BR>
and not just because we were unhappy and not afraid to say so.<BR>
<BR>
I suggest to you that most - if not all - other systems are just<BR>
as full of the same kind of errors you are decrying in Traveller<BR>
- - but either the fans don't care, or the companies don't.  In a<BR>
way, Traveller is lucky in that it has neither - but that cuts<BR>
both ways, as your post illustrates - the fans come to expect a<BR>
higher level of quality, and when factors outside the publisher's<BR>
control come into play, well...<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 11:57:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/16/00 11:33 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:<BR>
> Which is why some folks are trying to develop "smart bullets". A bullet<BR>
> that can "steer" towards an appropriate IR source would be nasty, even<BR>
> if it can't change course by more than a few yards at typical cmbat<BR>
> ranges.<BR>
<BR>
This is a favorite of sci-fi enthusiasts, but no one I know of is giving<BR>
them any real thought in terms of infantry weapons.  They are just too<BR>
costly and complex.  compare the theoretical cost of smart ammunition<BR>
against something like a 20mm or 30mm area target ammunition.  'Stupid' 30mm<BR>
grenades have a burst radius of 15m or more, and are cheap to build.  And<BR>
they can attach multiple target in the impact area.<BR>
<BR>
So called 'smart' bullets are going to be very costly.  And just what do you<BR>
home in on?  Passive sensors that target infantry are going to need<BR>
something specific to home in on (unless you use target painting, which is a<BR>
liability of it's own).  IR sources.  Bad choice.  There will be millions or<BR>
IR signatures on the battlefield that will be brighter than infantry.  And<BR>
uniforms already include IR screening.  A lot of 'smart' rounds will be<BR>
hitting placed thermal flares.<BR>
<BR>
The closest we're likely to see in 'smart' ammunition is what is already<BR>
being tested in the OICW (which itself is too costly to ever be deployed.<BR>
Anyone for a $35,000 assault rifle?).  A simple range finding sight, linked<BR>
to a range-settable fragmentation grenade make a very lethal combination,<BR>
although a good computing gun sight and impact fused, bounding HE grenades<BR>
would probably be just as effective at less cost.  Picture a 30mm, semi auto<BR>
M-203 with an electro-optical gun sight that automatically adjusts elevation<BR>
based on range to target.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>> Salvo weapons or area target ammunition (e.g. 20mm OICW) seem to be the next<BR>
>> generation.<BR>
> <BR>
> And it'll be interesting seeing the cheap "area" rounds and the more<BR>
> expensive "targetting" rounds.<BR>
<BR>
No one is likely to waste 'targetting' rounds on people.  The cost is just<BR>
too high, and anything effective against vehicles or aircraft will be too<BR>
heavy for infantry small arms.  I expect to see lighter area weapons like<BR>
GLs filter down to the fire team level, and dedicated heavy, dual use tac<BR>
missile to be reserved for MBT/IFVs or aircraft.<BR>
<BR>
One of my own thoughts was for a 20-25mm grenade launcher capable of firing<BR>
either a time-fused HE round or a canister load of SCMITR flechettes.  Have<BR>
it fire from an open bolt, with dual magazines.  A smart range-finding sight<BR>
selects either flechette or HE based on range (flechette for 150m or less,<BR>
with a user over-ride).  Get rid of the conventional rifle all together.<BR>
<BR>
A system like this could be built now with off the shelf components for<BR>
relatively low cost, and would likely provide much higher hit/kill rates<BR>
with a fraction of the cost of the highly complex OICW.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:01:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Current Threads<BR>
<BR>
In this corner, fallout from a thread about sex which is now over (right?).<BR>
In /this/ corner, the latest iteration of FF&S gun (design) geeking.<BR>
<BR>
Talk about a snapshot of the human condition. :)<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:21:04 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Starport Generatiom, pt1 (long)<BR>
<BR>
Tried posting this earlier today but the server apparently balked at the<BR>
size so I am breaking it up into two parts.<BR>
<BR>
This article is best viewed/printed with a proportional font (courier seems<BR>
to work best). <BR>
<BR>
It's another item from my archives. This one is from the days when I was a<BR>
contributing editor to the Traveller Chronicle. I did pass this particular<BR>
submission on to Kevin, but offhand I don't recall it ever having appeared<BR>
in the magazine.<BR>
***************************************************************<BR>
<BR>
Item    6511249                 94/01/28        09:45<BR>
From:   WILDSTAR@QUARK.QRC.COM@INTERNET#<BR>
To:     P.SANDERS                       J. PAUL SANDERS<BR>
Sub: An article for you<BR>
<BR>
Paul,<BR>
<BR>
Here's the starport traffic and facilities rules I mentioned to you a while<BR>
back.  They're designed for a MegaTraveller campaign (with or without Hard<BR>
Times) but are completely usable in T:TNE as well.  The role-playing effects<BR>
are given in difficulty levels, which is the only thing which prevent these<BR>
from being directly applicable to Classic Traveller.  There are two files<BR>
here, separated from my comments be cut lines like the one below.  Pass it on <BR>
to Kevin if you see fit and let me know what you think!<BR>
<BR>
- -----8<-----<BR>
<BR>
Starport Traffic and Facilities Generator<BR>
<BR>
These rules generate a pair of numbers which measure the amount of<BR>
interstellar traffic in a system, and the quality and extent of the starport<BR>
facilities.  2d6 die rolls modified by a number of factors are used to create<BR>
the traffic level and the facilities code.  These numbers are appended to the<BR>
"extended" UWP, after the population multiplier, asteroid belts, and gas<BR>
giants statistics.  A sample entry might resemble the following:<BR>
<BR>
   Foobar   0102 A123987-F S Hi Cp Xb   A 123-45 Dd G7 IV<BR>
   ------   ---- --------- - --------   - --- -- -- -----<BR>
   |        |    |         | |          | |   |  |  |<BR>
   |        |    UWP Data  | |          | |   |  |  Stellar Data<BR>
   |        Hex Location   | |          | |   |  Allegiance<BR>
   World Name              | |          | |   Traffic and Facilities<BR>
                           | |          | Population, Gas Giants, and Belts<BR>
                           | |          Travel Zone<BR>
                           | Trade Classifications<BR>
                           Bases<BR>
<BR>
The DMs were created based on the assumption that better starports should in<BR>
general have more traffic, but not always.  Other factors, in particular the<BR>
trade classifications, are quite important.  In addition, since most traders<BR>
have low jump performance, having more nearby worlds to trade with would also<BR>
help to increase the trade level.  Implicit in this decision is an assumption<BR>
about the range of most merchant ships.  Jump-1 was assumed to be the most<BR>
common, and almost all of the rest being Jump-2.  Therefore, the trade<BR>
effects of nearby worlds are limited to those within one or two parsecs.<BR>
<BR>
Facilities generally follow the traffic volume; however, since significant<BR>
imported technology is required at low local technology levels, these<BR>
facilities are typically smaller and less well-equipped.   Worlds with<BR>
important military installations probably have military contractors that are<BR>
not adverse to doing work for the civilian sector.  Finally, worlds that<BR>
are cut<BR>
off from interstellar trade by travel zone classification or the wars of the<BR>
Rebellion will have smaller and more primitive facilities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Suggested Use<BR>
<BR>
Use the Traffic or Facilities code just like attributes in task rolls (divide<BR>
by 5 and drop fractions).  Finding a shipyard willing and able to repair<BR>
battle damage might be Routine(Facilities), while finding  passage on a ship<BR>
going to the proper destination might be Difficult(Traffic), if it is an<BR>
unpopular destination.  Traders and tramp starships looking for cargo and<BR>
passengers should apply the attribute DM (code value / 5, drop fractions) as<BR>
a DM to the Passenger, Freight Available Lots, and Cargo Available Lots<BR>
Tables.  The codes can also be used to generate tasks; the explanatory tables<BR>
(below) show suggested difficulty levels based on the traffic and facilities<BR>
codes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Generation Procedure<BR>
<BR>
Traffic Code: Roll 2d6-2 and apply the following (cumulative) DMs:<BR>
<BR>
  Starport: A=+2, B=+0, C=-1, D=-2, E=-3, X=-4<BR>
  Trade Class: Ni=-2, Po=-2, Ba=-1, Fl=-1, Lo=-1, Ic=-1, Na=+0, Va=+0,<BR>
               Wa=+1, De=+1, Hi=+2, Ri=+2, As=+3, Ag=+3, In=+4<BR>
               Hard Times: Failing or Doomed, +1 (Doom Trade)<BR>
  Travel Zone:<BR>
    Classic: Green=+0, Amber=-2, Red/Interdicted/Blocaded=-4<BR>
    Hard Times: Frontier=+0, Outlands=-1, Wilds=-2<BR>
                Worlds in a faction's Safe use the Classic DMs<BR>
  Trade Partners:<BR>
    Per world within Jump-1: If Starport Class A or B: +2<BR>
                             If Starport Class C, D, or E: +1<BR>
    If no Class A starports (including self) within Jump-2: -2<BR>
    If a sector, subsector, local, or polity capital: +1<BR>
    If on Xboat or designated trade route: +1<BR>
  Polity:<BR>
    Classic: Independent worlds: Non-Aligned=-2, Client-State=-1<BR>
             Member of an extra-Imperial polity=+0<BR>
    Hard Times: Member of a polity: +1 (cumulative with capital DM)<BR>
                World is within a faction's Safe: +1<BR>
  Prosperity: A referee-assigned DM based on local conditions, regional<BR>
    trade factors, or campaign storyline needs.  The range from -4 to +4<BR>
    is suggested, but the referee should always feel free to modify any<BR>
    die roll that is not to his or her liking.<BR>
<BR>
  If the final result is negative, and the world's starport class is A,<BR>
  B, or C, assign a code of 0; if the starport class is D, E, or X, assign<BR>
  a code of X.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Facilities Code: Roll 2d6-6 and apply the following (cumulative) DMs:<BR>
<BR>
  Traffic: apply the full traffic code as a DM (treat X as -2)<BR>
  Bases: Depot=+4, WayStation=+3, Naval/Scout=+2, Military=+1<BR>
  Local Technology: Pre-Industrial (TL 0-3): -6<BR>
                    Industrial (TL 4-5): -4<BR>
                    Pre-Stellar (TL 6-8): -2<BR>
                    Early Stellar (TL 9-A): -1<BR>
                    Average Stellar (TL B-D): +0<BR>
                    High Stellar (TL E-G): +1<BR>
                    Extreme Stellar (TL H+): +2<BR>
  Travel Zone:<BR>
    Classic: Green=+0, Amber=-1, Red/Interdicted/Blocaded=-2<BR>
    Hard Times: WarZone=+1, IntensiveWar=-2, BlackWar=-3<BR>
                Worlds in a faction's Safe use the Classic DMs<BR>
  Prosperity: A referee-assigned DM based on local conditions, regional<BR>
    trade factors, or campaign storyline needs.  The range from -4 to +4<BR>
    is suggested, but the referee should always feel free to modify any<BR>
    die roll that is not to his or her liking.<BR>
<BR>
  If the final result is negative, and the starport class or traffic code<BR>
  is X, assign a facilities code of X.  Otherwise, assign a code of 0.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Explanation of Codes<BR>
<BR>
Traffic Code (indicates quantity of trade)                    Task Difficulty<BR>
<BR>
  X ------- No Traffic (except as referee-generated event)    Impossible<BR>
  0, 1, 2 - Backwater, Very Low traffic volume                Formidable<BR>
  3, 4, 5 - Low traffic volume                                Difficult<BR>
  6, 7, 8 - Average traffic volume (Imperial average is 7.5)  Routine<BR>
  9, A, B - High traffic volume                               Routine<BR>
  C, D, E - Very High traffic volume                          Simple<BR>
  F ------- Extreme traffic volume                            Simple<BR>
<BR>
Facilities Code (indicates size and quality of facilities)    Task Difficulty<BR>
<BR>
  X ------- None (abandoned, converted or destroyed)          Impossible<BR>
  0, 1, 2 - Inadequate                                        Formidable<BR>
  3, 4, 5 - Cramped but Adequate                              Difficult<BR>
  6, 7, 8 - Average (Imperial average is 8.0)                 Routine<BR>
  9, A, B - Above Average                                     Routine<BR>
  C, D, E - Excellent                                         Simple<BR>
  F ------- Outstanding                                       Simple<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Designer's Notes<BR>
<BR>
The explanation of codes deliberately avoids specific numbers; this is so<BR>
that individual referees can use this system regardless of the level of<BR>
interstellar trade they want portray.  I have been a part of different<BR>
campaigns where the "average" level of trade varied from a couple of free<BR>
traders a week to ten- or hundred- thousand ton bulk transports arriving<BR>
every few minutes.<BR>
<BR>
The +1 for "designated trade route" can be applied to Hard Times as well as<BR>
to Xboat and other trade routes in a stable interstellar state.  It could<BR>
even be applied to any well known and well-traveled mains, like the Vilani<BR>
Main and the Spinward Main.  It should definitely be applied to trade "runs"<BR>
like those described in the Diaspora sector supplement.  However, the<BR>
trading partners rule already provides a DM for worlds that are on mains.  If<BR>
a world is on a main it gets at least a +2 (one for each neighbor world) and<BR>
more if either of them have an A or B starport.  Only mains that serve as a<BR>
conduit for long distance trade should get the additional "designated trade<BR>
route" DM.<BR>
<BR>
A referee assigned prosperity factor was used instead of a random one, so<BR>
that the referee could decide where and when to apply it.  If a world with a<BR>
depressed local economy is needed, simply (and arbitrarily; it's OK to be<BR>
arbitrary, the dice certainly are) apply the -4 DM.  Use this DM to paint<BR>
entire sectors as a heavily industrialized core, or to pick out individual<BR>
subsectors, clusters or even single worlds for deep depression or spectacular<BR>
productivity.<BR>
<BR>
For explorations beyond the confines of known space, the referee should<BR>
use the results with care; completely unexplored areas probably<BR>
have no trade at all.  The referee may want to compute the trade volume<BR>
anyway; this could be the world's "potential trade value" or some such.  Any<BR>
independent states out there, known or unknown, should probably have a<BR>
prosperity level assigned and local trade generated.<BR>
<BR>
Many referees will want to modify the DMs to correctly reflect conditions in<BR>
their individual campaigns.  The most common changes will be to reflect the<BR>
jump capability of the average trading vessel, and the stellar density used<BR>
to generate the campaign subsectors.  As presented above, the DMs assume the<BR>
MegaTraveller "Average" stellar density (50%), combined with short range<BR>
merchant ships.  Most ships as Jump-1 (thus the DM for worlds within one<BR>
parsec) with almost all of the rest being Jump-2 (thus the negative DM for<BR>
being more than two parsecs from a Class A port).<BR>
<BR>
The DMs presented above were based on an analysis of the MegaTraveller world<BR>
generation and trade systems, and on a computer analysis of the Imperial<BR>
Grand Survey sector data (the 35 sectors available for download from GEnie).<BR>
These DMs are easily changed without unbalancing the traffic and facilities<BR>
generator by ensuring that the expected value of the new DM remains the same<BR>
as the system as designed.  The expected value is the amount of the DM, times<BR>
the chance that the DM will occur.  For example, a +1 DM which occurs half<BR>
the time has an expected value of (+1 * 1/2), or 0.5000; while a -2 DM which<BR>
applies to one third of the time has an expected value of -0.6667.<BR>
<BR>
To change the trade partners DMs, both the distance and the DM must be<BR>
altered.  Instead of Jump-1, use the jump number of the most common trading<BR>
vessels in your game.  Replace the DMs of +2 per Class A or B port, and +1<BR>
<BR>
per Class C, D, or E port, with whatever will give you an expected value of<BR>
4.442 in a standard density subsector.  Use a similar procedure to change the<BR>
- -2 if no Class A port within jump-2; use whatever the jump number of your<BR>
universe's "long range" traders is.  The expected value should be -0.4082 in<BR>
a standard density subsector.<BR>
<BR>
As the ranges become longer, there are more trade partners to check for each<BR>
world in the subsector.  This will make traffic and facilities generation<BR>
slower and more tedious.  One solution would be to remove both modifiers and<BR>
change the die roll from 2d6-2 to 2d6+2.  This simplifies generation, but<BR>
makes the traffic at a given port independent of the number and quality of<BR>
nearby ports.<BR>
<BR>
Special thanks should go to all of the members of TML (the Traveller Mailing<BR>
List) for reading and re-reading these rules while I tried to get the kinks<BR>
out of them.  For more information on TML, or to join, send Internet E-mail<BR>
to James Perkins, the TML moderator, at "traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca"<BR>
(accounts on GEnie, CompuServe, PsiLink, and most academic computer centers<BR>
can send and receive Internet E-mail).  Special thanks should go to TML<BR>
members Bryan Borlich, Bertil Jonell, Steve Higginbotham, and Hans<BR>
Rancke-Madsen who have each encouraged me with their comments and<BR>
suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Hard Times<BR>
<BR>
Several special modifiers apply to Hard Times.  When generating the traffic<BR>
volume, the Hard Times Doom Trade modifier applies in addition to any other<BR>
trade classification DMs.  However, the Hard Times Travel Zone and Polity DMs<BR>
apply instead of the listed Classic Traveller DMs.  Similarly, when<BR>
generating Hard Times facilities codes, use the Hard Times modifiers instead<BR>
of the Classic Traveller DMs for Trade Zone.<BR>
<BR>
When generating traffic and facilities for Hard Times, use the final Hard<BR>
Times UWP values to generate the final traffic and facilities values.<BR>
Re-generating these codes will allow traffic patterns to shift in response<BR>
to all of the changes brought on by Hard Times.<BR>
<BR>
For war zone (including intensive war zone and black war zone) subsectors,<BR>
Apply the reductions in Stage 1: Destruction of Interstellar Transport.<BR>
These reductions are the direct effect of the destruction of starships and<BR>
facilities in the battles of the Rebellion.<BR>
<BR>
Outside of the war zones, the reduction of traffic and facilities comes<BR>
later, as these areas are cut off from trade and are abandoned by the<BR>
factions. The traffic level is reduced in Stage 2: Collapse of Financial<BR>
Markets.  Optionally (and this is completely unofficial), delay the reduction<BR>
of the starport type for non-war-zone worlds until this step as well.<BR>
Reduce the facilities code in Stage 3: Recession of Planetary Economies, at<BR>
the same time as the UWP tech level is reduced.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Interpretation Examples<BR>
<BR>
C-5A = Class C starport: Average facility, capable of reasonable repairs.<BR>
       Traffic level 5: Low traffic volume.  Facilities Code A: Above<BR>
       average.  Although the port gets less traffic than most worlds in the<BR>
       Imperium, its facilities are quite extensive.  Local yards and skilled<BR>
       technicians can perform almost any work expected of a Class C port,<BR>
       with unhurried skill that matches the spacious and uncrowded starport.<BR>
<BR>
A-EF = Class A starport: Shipyard capable of constructing starships. Traffic<BR>
       level E: Very High traffic volume.  Facilities code F: Outstanding.<BR>
       Although one of the busiest starports in the subsector, this world's<BR>
       volume of traffic is exceeded only by its efficient and complete<BR>
       starport facilities.<BR>
<BR>
B-30 = Class B starport: shipyard capable of constructing non-starships and<BR>
       most repairs.  Traffic level 3: Low traffic volume.  Facilities code<BR>
       0: Inadequate.  Not much traffic passes through here, and part of the<BR>
       reason is the port facilities.  Although it bills itself as a class<BR>
       B starport, the shipyard looks deserted, many of the docking bays<BR>
       have collapsed, and what few skilled workers are left are crippled<BR>
       by lack of tools, parts, and snowed under with a backlog of work.<BR>
<BR>
E-10 = Class E starport: frontier-quality installation.  Traffic level 1:<BR>
       Low traffic volume.  Facilities code 0: Inadequate.  Although it<BR>
       seems hard to believe, here is an example of a substandard Class E<BR>
       port.  It's a bomb crater, with a portable landing beacon installed.<BR>
       The beacon was courtesy of the last trader through here, about 5<BR>
       weeks ago, sold in exchange for a home-cooked dinner.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Expanded Codes for the playtest sectors<BR>
<BR>
The following interpretations include specific numbers, and are intended as<BR>
a suggestion only.  By no means are the following tables required to make<BR>
use of the traffic and facilities generator.  Each referee, and each<BR>
campaign, will have different preferences and needs, and should think about<BR>
the exact meaning of the codes in relation to his or her campaign before<BR>
deciding on a standard.<BR>
<BR>
Traffic Level (in terms of aggregate tons of shipping per year)<BR>
<BR>
  X - Less than 1 thousand tons/year (less than 1 free trader per month)<BR>
  0 - At least 1 thousand tons/year (1 free trader per month)<BR>
  1 - At least 10 thousand tons/year (1 subsidized merchant every other week)<BR>
  2 - At least 50 thousand tons/year (2 subsidized merchants a week)<BR>
  3 - At least 100 thousand tons/year<BR>
  4 - At least 500 thousand tons/year<BR>
  5 - At least 1 million tons/year<BR>
  6 - At least 2.5 million tons/year<BR>
  7 - At least 5 million tons/year<BR>
  8 - At least 7.5 million tons/year<BR>
  9 - At least 10 million tons/year<BR>
  A - At least 50 million tons/year<BR>
  B - At least 100 million tons/year<BR>
  C - At least 500 million tons/year<BR>
  D - At least 1 billion tons/year<BR>
  E - At least 2.5 billion tons/year<BR>
  F - More than 5 billion tons/year<BR>
<BR>
Facilities Code<BR>
<BR>
  X - Abandoned, Destroyed, or Converted to another function<BR>
  0 - Does not actually meet all requirements for Starport Class<BR>
  1 - Inadequate facilities in at least one respect<BR>
  2 - Bare minimum to meet all requirements for Starport Class<BR>
  3 - Cramped, low capacity facilities<BR>
  4 - Substandard facilities or services<BR>
  5 - Small, crowded, expect delays for all facilities and services<BR>
  6 - Small but not overcrowded,<BR>
  7 - About average, busy for its size<BR>
  8 - About average<BR>
  9 - Better than average facilities or services<BR>
  A - Spacious facilities, easily handles present traffic requirements<BR>
  B - Spacious facilities and efficient, skilled services<BR>
  C - Capable of almost anything<BR>
  D - Large, cavernous facilities with plenty of room for expansion<BR>
  E - Excellent facilities, can meet any requirement within Starport Class<BR>
  F - Outstanding, large, efficient, meets most requirements for next<BR>
      higher Starport Class.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----8<-----<BR>
<BR>
(Continued in following post...)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:28:26 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Starport Generation, pt2 (long)<BR>
<BR>
(Continued from previous post...)<BR>
<BR>
This article is best viewed/printed with a proportional font (courier seems<BR>
to work best). <BR>
*************************************<BR>
- -----8<-----<BR>
<BR>
I also generated three subsectors (by hand!) as examples for the system.<BR>
While I doubt that you will want to reproduce the maps in TTC, I think the<BR>
detailed examples would be helpful, and I'm rather fond of the 'large map'<BR>
scheme that I worked out (described at the end of the examples).<BR>
<BR>
- -----8<-----<BR>
<BR>
Examples of Traffic and Facilities Generation<BR>
<BR>
Key to Maps:                ___<BR>
                           /   \<BR>
                          /  A<--- Starport Class Code<BR>
    Starport Trade Level -->1 2<-- Starport Facilities Code<BR>
                           \___/<BR>
<BR>
Classic Traveller: Regina Subsector, Spinward Marches, ca. 1100<BR>
  ___       ___       ___       ___<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \___<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  C  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 4 7 /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/  B  \___/     \___/  A  \___/  B  \<BR>
 /   \ 8 2 /   \     /   \ 8 5 /   \ 9 9 /<BR>
/     \___/  A  \___/     \___/  C  \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 8 D /   \     /   \ A 7 /   \<BR>
<BR>
 \___/  C  \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \ 9 4 /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/  A  \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 5 8 /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 3 4 /   \     /<BR>
/  A  \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\ A D /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/  B  \___/  B  \___/  C  \___/  E  \<BR>
 /   \ B F /   \ 6 A /   \ A A /   \ X X /<BR>
/  B  \___/     \___/  X  \___/  X  \___/<BR>
\ F F /   \     /   \ X X /   \ 1 X /   \<BR>
 \___/  E  \___/     \___/     \___/  C  \<BR>
 /   \ 1 0 /   \     /   \     /   \ 2 3 /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/  E  \___/  C  \___/  E  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \ 9 4 /   \ 6 8 /   \ X X /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/  X  \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \ 4 3 /   \<BR>
 \___/  E  \___/     \___/     \___/  E  \<BR>
 /   \ 7 5 /   \     /   \     /   \ 6 5 /<BR>
/     \___/  C  \___/     \___/  E  \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 5 A /   \     /   \ X X /   \<BR>
 \___/  C  \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \ 9 9 /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/  A  \___/  C  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \ E F /   \ 7 8 /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/  C  \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \<BR>
     \ A F /   \     /   \     /   \ 8 B /<BR>
      \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
<BR>
Example Calculations:<BR>
<BR>
Regina: For Traffic, 2d6-2 rolls a 5.  Applicable DMs are for Class A port,<BR>
+2; Rich, +2; worlds within J-1: 3 Class C, for +3.  Regina is Subsector<BR>
capital, +1; and on the Xboat route, +1.  Traffic is E (14).  For<BR>
Facilities, 2d6-6 rolls a 1.  Applicable DMs are for traffic, +14; bases,<BR>
+2, and local technology, +1. Thus, Facilities max out at F (15).<BR>
<BR>
Algine: For Traffic, 2d6-2 rolls a 9.  Applicable DMs are for Class X<BR>
starport, -4; High Population, +2; Interdicted world, -4; worlds within<BR>
J-1:  3 Class E, for +3; there are no Class A ports within J-2, for -2.<BR>
Traffic is 4.  For Facilities, 2d6-6 rolls a 1.  Applicable DMs are<BR>
traffic, +4; local technology, -4; and travel zone, -2.  Facilities are 3.<BR>
Algine is apparently being blockaded, and rather ineffectually, at that.<BR>
<BR>
This subsector demonstrates the variation that is possible within a single<BR>
subsector.  The spinward side of the subsector contains many prosperous<BR>
planets and a section of the Spinward Main; traffic levels are almost all<BR>
above average, and facilities are generally good.  Along the coreward section<BR>
of the subsector, two prosperous clusters are separated from the main (but<BR>
have Class A ports and/or Xboat connections).  However, central part of the<BR>
trailing edge the subsector can be charitably described as a backwater; here,<BR>
depressed trade levels and poor facilities are the norm rather than the<BR>
exception.<BR>
<BR>
Note: Subsector data for Regina was taken from Traveller Supplement 3:  The<BR>
Spinward Marches as input to the traffic and facilities generator. Data<BR>
included with MegaTraveller may differ slightly due to Rebellion-era<BR>
changes in the Spinward Marches.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
MegaTraveller (Rebellion-Era): Promise Subsector, Diaspora Sector, ca. 1124<BR>
  ___       ___       ___       ___<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
<BR>
/  D  \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \___<BR>
\ 1 3 /   \     /   \     /   \ 6 8 /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  B  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ 0 4 /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  C  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 8 8 /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/  A  \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \ E D /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 3 0 /   \     /<BR>
/  D  \___/  B  \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\ 4 3 /   \ 7 7 /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \ 9 9 /<BR>
/     \___/  D  \___/  A  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 9 4 /   \ C C /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  B  \___/     \___/  E  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \ 5 5 /   \     /   \ 1 0 /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  B  \___/  B  \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ E C /   \ 4 3 /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  A  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ B E /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  A  \___/  X  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \ E F /   \ X X /   \     /<BR>
/  C  \___/  B  \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\ 0 4 /   \ 6 6 /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \ 3 8 /<BR>
/     \___/  A  \___/  A  \___/  C  \___/<BR>
\     /   \ B F /   \ 6 6 /   \ 7 8 /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 6 8 /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  C  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ D C /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  C  \___/  C  \___/     \<BR>
     \     /   \ 8 A /   \ 5 8 /   \     /<BR>
      \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
<BR>
Xboat routes are not indicated in the 1124 data; presumably the Rebellion<BR>
had already severed Xboat and scheduled traffic to the sector by 1124.<BR>
Trade routes indicated in the small map were used in generating both the<BR>
1124 and 1129 trade and facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Promise: For Traffic, 2d6-2 rolls 3.  Applicable DMs are for Class A<BR>
starport, +2; High Population, +2; Industrial, +4; Poor, -2.  Trade<BR>
partners are 1 Class A and 1 Class B starport, +4.  It is also a subsector<BR>
capital, +1.  Thus traffic is E (14).  Facilities 2d6-6 roll 1.  Applicable<BR>
DMs are for traffic, +14; and technology, +1.  Facilities max out at F<BR>
(15).<BR>
<BR>
Note: Subsector data for Promise (both 1124 and 1129) was taken from The<BR>
Astrogator's Guide the Diaspora Sector as input to the traffic and<BR>
facilities generator.  Data included with Assignment: Vigilante will differ<BR>
slightly.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
MegaTraveller (Hard Times): Promise Subsector, Diaspora Sector, ca. 1129<BR>
  ___       ___       ___       ___<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
/  E  \___/     \___/     \___/  C  \___<BR>
\ X X /   \     /   \     /   \ 2 4 /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ X X /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  E  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 1 2 /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/     \___/  B  \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \     /   \ 4 4 /   \<BR>
<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  X  \___/  E  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ X X /   \ X X /<BR>
/  E  \___/  D  \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\ 1 0 /   \ X X /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/  X  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \ X X /<BR>
/     \___/  D  \___/  C  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 5 2 /   \ 6 A /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \ X X /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  E  \___/  X  \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ 1 0 /   \ X X /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ 1 0 /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  B  \___/  X  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \ 7 8 /   \ X X /   \     /<BR>
/  E  \___/  D  \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
\ X X /   \ 4 5 /   \     /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/  C  \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \     /   \ 0 0 /<BR>
/     \___/  C  \___/  D  \___/  E  \___/<BR>
\     /   \ 3 2 /   \ 1 4 /   \ 0 0 /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/     \___/  D  \___/     \<BR>
 /   \     /   \     /   \ 1 1 /   \     /<BR>
/     \___/     \___/  X  \___/     \___/<BR>
\     /   \     /   \ 2 X /   \     /   \<BR>
 \___/     \___/  E  \___/  C  \___/     \<BR>
     \     /   \ X X /   \ 0 1 /   \     /<BR>
      \___/     \___/     \___/     \___/<BR>
<BR>
By 1129, the whole subsector is coded as Wilds; the effects of Hard Times on<BR>
UWP values is responsible for the drastic drop in trade throughout the<BR>
subsector.  Pirate activity has reduced trade to a number of worlds, mainly<BR>
on the trailing edge of the subsector.  This map also shows the important<BR>
effects of mains and clusters on trade.  About the only bright spot in this<BR>
subsector is the Promise Main, and even here the trade is only a pale shadow<BR>
of its pre-rebellion levels.<BR>
<BR>
Promise: For Traffic, 2d6-2 roll a 3.  Applicable DMs are for High<BR>
population, +2; Poor, -2; and Industrial, +4.  Trading partners are two<BR>
worlds with Class D starports, +2.  I assumed that Promise is the "capital"<BR>
of the League of Promise, giving it another +1.  It is also in the Wilds,<BR>
- -2; but is part of a polity, +1.  Finally, there are no Class A starports<BR>
within 2 parsecs, for a final -2.  Traffic is therefore 7.  For Facilities,<BR>
2d6-6 roll 2.  Applicable DMs are traffic +7; and WarZone, -1.  Facilities<BR>
are 8.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Expanded Format Used in our Playtest Maps<BR>
<BR>
By no means is this system required to make use of the traffic and<BR>
facilities generator; it is simply something that I found to be convenient.<BR>
Many people object to a map as cluttered as this is; I have naturally small<BR>
handwriting, and find it to be a help.  I generated the above sample<BR>
subsectors by hand; partly this was to prove that the procedure is not too<BR>
complicated to implement with only a pencil, paper, and dice.  After the<BR>
first time through (I generated Regina twice; once before I revised the<BR>
system, and once after) I came up with the following mapping system.<BR>
<BR>
I enlarged a subsector grid on a Xerox machine until the hex grid filled the<BR>
page with just enough space left over for 3-ring binder holes.  This made<BR>
the hexes big enough to code all sorts of interesting information.  I used<BR>
<BR>
the following format to code almost anything of interest directly on the<BR>
map.  If I was going to use the map for a campaign, I would also use a green<BR>
highlighter to mark Xboat routes, a blue one to mark polity boundaries, and<BR>
(of course) pink and yellow ones to mark Red and Amber zones.<BR>
                            ________<BR>
                           /  0201  \<BR>
   Military Bases --------->B      G<-- Gas Giant<BR>
                         /            \<BR>
   Starport --------------->A 9   In<--- Trade Classifications<BR>
   and Population      /          Hi<   \<BR>
   Trade and -------------->8 9   Ri<   /<BR>
   Facilities           \         Wa<  /<BR>
                         \            /<BR>
   Misc Codes ------------->CTX    F<-- Tech Level<BR>
   A=Amber Zone            \________/<BR>
   C=Subsec/Local Capital<BR>
   P=Polity<BR>
   R=Red/Interdict<BR>
   T=Trade Route<BR>
   X=X-Boat Route<BR>
   Z=Rampant Piracy<BR>
   (greek letter)=Research Station<BR>
<BR>
Opposite each page, I put a sheet of graph paper (college-ruled notebook<BR>
paper would work just as well) for recording the UWP data.  On this sheet I<BR>
put the world data in the usual format (I put the trade and facilities right<BR>
after the "extended" population, asteroid belt, and gas giant data.<BR>
<BR>
- -----8<-----<BR>
<BR>
Guy Garnett, aka ...<BR>
wildstar@quark.qrc.com<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In the Far Future<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2769<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2770</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2770<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Kiri's Book<BR>
Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Re: Starport Generation<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
Tasteless sigs<BR>
CHAMP launched<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Preliminary call for players in a Pocket Empires PBEM<BR>
Re: Current Threads<BR>
Tree Penguins?<BR>
Re: Preliminary call for players in a Pocket Empires PBEM<BR>
RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
Dissent<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:30:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Kiri's Book<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/15/00 2:40 PM, tiamat@tsoft.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
> I have been told that my stuff is good, but I hope it SELLS.  I'm a little<BR>
> worried because it's space opera, but it's not your standard Brits in Space<BR>
> scenario:  the unwitting heroine is a 19-year-old bisexual, polyamorous<BR>
> ex-gladiator.<BR>
<BR>
Oh good, I love space opera, and think it is high time somebody "mixed it<BR>
up" a little. You have a nice memorable name too, unless you plan on a<BR>
pen-name. I think "Kiri Aradia Morgan" has a very nice ring to it though,<BR>
I'd go with that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:38:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
<BR>
Regarding some of the responses to the original plea to end this thread:<BR>
<BR>
It is one of the pitfalls of modern liberalism (believe me, I'm one myself) <BR>
is the tendency to assume that anyone holding an opinion different from <BR>
one's own is ignorant or misinformed.  We are all rational beings, and thus <BR>
anyone is able to achieve our own Enlightened state.  Thus it is one's duty <BR>
to educate them about Rightthink, until they understand that they were <BR>
Wrong before.<BR>
<BR>
True diversity includes dissent.  If someone complains that a subject is <BR>
unpleasant to them, or states a position different from yours, please do <BR>
not attempt to expand their consciousness and persuade them otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:06:13 -0400<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starport Generation<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:21:04 -0700<BR>
>From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
>Subject: Starport Generatiom, pt1 (long)<BR>
><BR>
>Here's the starport traffic and facilities rules I mentioned to you a while<BR>
>back.  They're designed for a MegaTraveller campaign (with or without Hard<BR>
>Times) but are completely usable in T:TNE as well.  <BR>
...<BR>
>Starport Traffic and Facilities Generator<BR>
<BR>
This is an interesting alternative to the system in GT: Starports, pp.<BR>
56-87. It arrives at very nearly the same results, from a completely<BR>
different direction. <BR>
<BR>
Those rules specifically assume that starport class is a direct measure of<BR>
facility quality; thus there is no separate Facility Code. The Traffic Code<BR>
in this article corresponds to the Port Size code in Starports (p. 59):<BR>
<BR>
Size	Traffic Level (in terms of aggregate tons of shipping per year)<BR>
<BR>
0-2	X - Less than 1 thousand tons/year (less than 1 free trader per month)<BR>
3	0 - At least 1 thousand tons/year (1 free trader per month)<BR>
4	1 - At least 10 thousand tons/year (1 subsidized merchant every other week)<BR>
4	2 - At least 50 thousand tons/year (2 subsidized merchants a week)<BR>
5	3 - At least 100 thousand tons/year<BR>
5	4 - At least 500 thousand tons/year<BR>
6	5 - At least 1 million tons/year<BR>
6	6 - At least 2.5 million tons/year<BR>
6	7 - At least 5 million tons/year<BR>
6	8 - At least 7.5 million tons/year<BR>
7	9 - At least 10 million tons/year<BR>
7	A - At least 50 million tons/year<BR>
8	B - At least 100 million tons/year<BR>
8	C - At least 500 million tons/year<BR>
9	D - At least 1 billion tons/year<BR>
9	E - At least 2.5 billion tons/year<BR>
9	F - More than 5 billion tons/year<BR>
<BR>
For comparison: If you consider combined air and sea freight, Houston, TX,<BR>
has a Port Size of 7, and a Traffic Level of 9.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 15:21:25<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
At 10:43 AM 7/16/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even Tree<BR>
>> Penguins.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't even want to *think* about the sort of evolutionary history<BR>
>that could produce *that* species...<BR>
<BR>
They are often seen riding on the backs of the Denebian Tree Oxen.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry  gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a<BR>
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of<BR>
limbs!"  - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:38:35 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
<BR>
> Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT book just <BR>
was <BR>
>  too typical to not comment on. <BR>
<BR>
Every printer makes mistakes in binding like this. It is not something Marc <BR>
has any control over -- and it is _not_ his fault. Anybody who does printing <BR>
for a living will tell you there is no way to escape the occasional screwup <BR>
- -- I have found typos in books by every major publisher in the world, as well <BR>
as binding goofs, missing/blank pages, etc.<BR>
<BR>
Don't dump on Marc for this one -- return the book and get a non-flawed copy.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:36:01 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
<BR>
on 7/16/00 3:38 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT book just<BR>
> was <BR>
>> too typical to not comment on.<BR>
> <BR>
> Every printer makes mistakes in binding like this. It is not something Marc<BR>
> has any control over -- and it is _not_ his fault. Anybody who does printing<BR>
> for a living will tell you there is no way to escape the occasional screwup<BR>
> -- I have found typos in books by every major publisher in the world, as well<BR>
> as binding goofs, missing/blank pages, etc.<BR>
> <BR>
> Don't dump on Marc for this one -- return the book and get a non-flawed copy.<BR>
> <BR>
> LKW<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't help that the material is 'technical' either.  I've see problems<BR>
where printers thought they were 'fixing' something. That trav stuff is<BR>
meaningless jibberish to them.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:41:58 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most tasteless sig<BR>
I have ever seen...<BR>
<BR>
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Andrew etc.<BR>
>   Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
>   Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
>   Shotgun $100<BR>
>   The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 02:07:31 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: CHAMP launched<BR>
<BR>
Moin Gurus,<BR>
<BR>
  CHAMP launched successfully at 14.00 MESZ from Plesetzk on top of Kosmos.<BR>
  CHAMP is online since 14.50 MESZ. Goal of the 'CHAllenging Minisatellite<BR>
  Payload' is a survey of earth magnetism and gravity.<BR>
<BR>
  CHAMP has only a weight of 522 kg, and a length of 8.33 m. The sattalite<BR>
  is low orbit and will finish its work in about 5 years, when it reachs<BR>
  the lowmark of 300 km.<BR>
<BR>
  Main design goal of CHAMP could be named as '3 times low' :<BR>
<BR>
    low orbit	350 km<BR>
    low weight	522 kg<BR>
    low budget	 32 mEuro<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:07:43 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
At 12:12 -0400 16/7/00, Olegamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
> I did notice that part of the Fighting Ships and Solomani Rim<BR>
> supplement was repeated in my copy.  Fortunately, it looks like this<BR>
> binding error didn't short me in any of the other supplements as it<BR>
> looks like all the pages are there, with just these 8 pages doubled<BR>
> up.<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>So even after all these years there is still errata?? Come on Miller, we're<BR>
>expected to pay almost $30 a shot and we still get haphazard products? Well,<BR>
>if nothing else, the Traveller Universe remains consistent. For you loyal<BR>
>fans that are preparing to give me a broadside let me give a preemptive<BR>
>apology.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Did you intend to look this stupid or was it accidental? This ain't <BR>
errata. It's the accidental duplication of a  a couple of pages of <BR>
the supplements. In fact, as it is 4 pages of supplement per page in <BR>
this format  then it's probably two duplicated extra pages. Nothing <BR>
is omitted as Eris clearly says. You're not getting ripped off. If <BR>
you feel so bad about it you could take a razor blade and cut the <BR>
pages out.<BR>
<BR>
> I love Traveller as much as you and have been as loyal a fan, but<BR>
>after the MegaTraveller and especially T4 fiascoes I'm beginning to get numb.<BR>
>Look at the money we consumers paid out for T4 only to find it to be the most<BR>
>flawed and now in total disuse by most fans, only to be promised T5? Come on!<BR>
>Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT book just was<BR>
>too typical to not comment on.<BR>
<BR>
THIS IS NOT ERRATA. THIS IS FACSIMILE COPY OF THE ORIGINAL CT <BR>
MATERIAL WHICH HAS  PAGES DUPLICATED. NOTHING IS MISSING! THIS IS NOT <BR>
AN ISSUE LIKE MT or T4's ERRATA.<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry if I offend.<BR>
<BR>
You did.  Your whole tone and attitude was obnoxious.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (not speaking in an official capacity for any Traveller publisher)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:39:00 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:43 AM 7/16/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>> I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even Tree<BR>
>>> Penguins.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I don't even want to *think* about the sort of evolutionary history<BR>
>>that could produce *that* species...<BR>
><BR>
> They are often seen riding on the backs of the Denebian Tree Oxen.<BR>
<BR>
Doug? I think you neeed to have a shugili check whatever it is you are<BR>
eating or drinking.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:19:51 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
This is an attempt to cover the effects of varied gravitation,<BR>
acceleration protection (and its lack) on characters.<BR>
<BR>
The proposed outline is as follows :-<BR>
i. General Considerations<BR>
- - adaptive reflexes for the short term<BR>
- - effects of big brief accelerations<BR>
ii. Longer term Adaptation<BR>
- - microgravity<BR>
- - hypergravity<BR>
iii. Equipment and rules<BR>
G-suits, G-tanks and centripetal 'gravity'<BR>
More on inertial compensators<BR>
Coping without equipment - rules for adaptation, unconsciousness, etc.<BR>
<BR>
- --------------------------------------------<BR>
1 : General Considerations<BR>
* Definitions<BR>
Microgravity : acceleration due to gravity less than 0.5ms^(-2)<BR>
Hypergravity : acceleration due to gravity greater than 12ms^(-2)<BR>
Positive g's (+g) : acceleration vector from head to feet<BR>
Negative g's (-g) : acceleration vector from feet to head<BR>
All g tolerances are in the absence of special conditions and<BR>
equipment, unless otherwise noted.<BR>
<BR>
* Adapting to acceleration in the short term (seconds to hours)<BR>
This happens every day when we wake up in the morning and stand up.<BR>
On standing, blood pools in the legs. A combination of vaso- and <BR>
venoconstriction, increased heart rate, and activation of renal fluid<BR>
retention mechanisms maintain cardiac output within tolerable limits.<BR>
Above the level of the heart, the circulation dilates to guarantee<BR>
an adequate blood flow to the brain. <BR>
These changes take place within two seconds, but are insufficient to<BR>
maintain brain blood flow for more than an hour or so.<BR>
<BR>
Walking helps keep venous pressures low in the legs<BR>
('muscle pump' action), preventing further falls in effective blood<BR>
volume.<BR>
<BR>
'Parade ground' fainting associated with prolonged quiet standing is<BR>
the inevitable consequence of cardiac output falling below the level<BR>
required to maintain brain perfusion.<BR>
<BR>
Despite maximal compensation, cardiac output (the volume of blood <BR>
pumped by the heart per unit time) falls by 25% on<BR>
standing. The fall in effective blood volume is about 5-7% of the total<BR>
blood volume (70-80mL/kg in an adult), equivalent to a minor bleed.<BR>
<BR>
Increasing levels of positive g multiply these effects.<BR>
With maximal physiological compensation, 5+ +g causes impairment<BR>
of blood flow to the eyes within 5 seconds and unconsciousness shortly<BR>
thereafter - 'blackout'. It is functionally equivalent to an acute<BR>
blood loss of 50%.<BR>
 <BR>
Negative g's cause blood to pool in the upper part of the body. The<BR>
increased blood volume delivered to the heart leads to an increase<BR>
in cardiac output and blood pressure.<BR>
The blood vessels of the head and neck become engorged.<BR>
Vision is impaired due to engorgement of the retinal vasculature.<BR>
This usually occurs with accelerations in excess of -2g's.<BR>
Headache is a common prodromal symptom prior to the occurrence of<BR>
'redout' - delirium and psychosis due to impairment of cerebral<BR>
blood flow and oedema (swelling). This usually takes place at about<BR>
- -5g's.<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration is much better tolerated if it is in the lateral<BR>
(side to side) or transverse (chest to back/back to chest) directions.<BR>
11g back-to-chest can be tolerated for 3 minutes, 17g chest-to-back<BR>
for 4 minutes - the 'muscle control limit'.<BR>
<BR>
Microgravity is relatively innocuous in the short term.<BR>
The loss of gravitational cues for the vestibular organs of the middle<BR>
ear may lead to motion sickness.<BR>
<BR>
* Big transient accelerations<BR>
Transients (of a second or less in duration) come and go<BR>
too quickly for any compensatory reflexes to assert themselves. Injury<BR>
is common due to the tremendous forces involved.<BR>
<BR>
Human tolerance limits for whole body impact (duration 0.1 second):<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration vector directed from front to rear of vehicle :<BR>
Forward seating (with shoulder belts)           40g<BR>
Forward seating (lapbelt only)                  27g <BR>
(maximum of 0.002 second)<BR>
Rearward seating                                80g<BR>
Sideward seating                                9g<BR>
<BR>
Unless noted, these values assume full head protection, neck bracing<BR>
and torso immobilisation and represent the threshold for injury with <BR>
these precautionary measures in use. <BR>
<BR>
Injury is typically due to :-<BR>
 - brain disruption :- superficial vessels<BR>
                     - along grey-white matter border) ;<BR>
 - neck injury :- rotational/translational (side to side)<BR>
                - flexion-extension (forward-back)<BR>
either vertebral or vertebral + cord injury ;<BR>
 - limb fractures (upper or lower) ;<BR>
 - lung contusion or rupture ; rib fractures ; shearing of great <BR>
vessels (aorta, pulmonary artery) ; oesophageal perforation ;<BR>
cardiac contusion (bruising) ;<BR>
 - disruption of the portal vein ; tearing of the liver or spleen ;<BR>
tearing of mesenteric vessels which supply blood to the bowel ;<BR>
disruption of the bladder.<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration vector directed along head -> foot axis (0.1 second)<BR>
Upward (=-g)                                     20g<BR>
Downward (=+g)                                   15g<BR>
<BR>
These values represent the threshold value for compression or burst<BR>
fractures of the vertebral column, femurs and pelvis, in the presence<BR>
of full torso/neck immobilisation (ejector seat), or a parachute<BR>
landing (legs and pelvis).<BR>
<BR>
Source: US Army Field Manual 1-301, Aeromedical Training for Flight<BR>
Personnel, May 1987 (courtesy Christopher Thrash).<BR>
<BR>
My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
me to desist.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:51:24 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Jul 00, at 9:41, Robert Houghton wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most tasteless<BR>
> sig I have ever seen...<BR>
<BR>
Actually its a copy of somebody elses that I filed in my <BR>
"interesting/amusing" sigs file that accidentally got attached to two <BR>
messages several days ago before I caught it (not my work, therefore I <BR>
should not use it without attribution). That being said, I don't see it as <BR>
particularly tasteless, however if you found it to be so, I apologise for<BR>
that.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:35:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Preliminary call for players in a Pocket Empires PBEM<BR>
<BR>
About a year ago, I started a PE PBEM game. Real life interfered and it <BR>
came crashing down. However, real life is now less hectic and I feel like I <BR>
might try again. Therefore I would like to put out a preliminary call for <BR>
players. At the moment this is just expressions of interest.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 20:45:36 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Current Threads<BR>
<BR>
> In this corner, fallout from a thread about sex which is now over (right?).<BR>
> In /this/ corner, the latest iteration of FF&S gun (design) geeking.<BR>
> <BR>
> Talk about a snapshot of the human condition. :)<BR>
> <BR>
This is exactaly why even though the sex thread was offensive to <BR>
me I didnt say anything.  If we can talk about killing and death we <BR>
should talk about sex and life.  We just need to learn boundaries.  <BR>
We may be liberal but there is just somethings you need to keep <BR>
to yourself.  MTC <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:44:43 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Tree Penguins?<BR>
<BR>
>> From: Tod Glenn <BR>
>>> And pigeons.  There must be pigeons...<BR>
>><BR>
>> I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even Tree<BR>
>> Penguins.<BR>
><BR>
>I don't even want to *think* about the sort of evolutionary history<BR>
>that could produce *that* species...<BR>
<BR>
 It would need to have Nick Park in it somewhere (as the genetic scientists' <BR>
"Ideas Man"). Why?  Go rent (or better, buy) Wallace and Grommit - The Wrong <BR>
Trousers.  And then go see Chicken Run...<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:47:59 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Preliminary call for players in a Pocket Empires PBEM<BR>
<BR>
I would be interested.  Especially given that one of my current projects<BR>
is to design an "updated" Pocket Empires.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:00:19 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
I hate to say it this way  but, it really depends on your perspective.<BR>
A dead soldier only takes 2 people to take care of him.  A wounded<BR>
soldier takes about 20.  Also during a battle, a dead soldier is left,<BR>
while a wounded soldier is taken care of and defended.  The M-16 was<BR>
designed to wound and not to kill.  I am not taking a moral stand on<BR>
which is right, just pointing out something of interest.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
No, but that isn't a requirement (BTW, cluster bomblets--maybe).<BR>
Personnel<BR>
armor is generally designed to counter the weapons most likely used.<BR>
And<BR>
armor doesn't have to be 100% effective to be useful.  Wounds can be<BR>
dramatically reduced in severity by body armor even if it isn't fully<BR>
effective. Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, my wife sent me this, but there some good examples of modern armor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:05:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most tasteless <BR>
> sig I have ever seen...<BR>
><BR>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> Andrew etc.<BR>
>>   Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
>>   Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
>>   Shotgun $100<BR>
>>   The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
<BR>
It's a parody of a series of commercials for one of the major credit<BR>
cards here in the US.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:52:51 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
on 7/16/00 10:00 PM, Ken J. Kazinski at kjkazinski@ksaits.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I hate to say it this way  but, it really depends on your perspective.<BR>
> A dead soldier only takes 2 people to take care of him.  A wounded<BR>
> soldier takes about 20.  Also during a battle, a dead soldier is left,<BR>
> while a wounded soldier is taken care of and defended.  The M-16 was<BR>
> designed to wound and not to kill.  I am not taking a moral stand on<BR>
> which is right, just pointing out something of interest.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
OK, better a light wound than a severe one.  And troops are apt to fight<BR>
more aggressively if they believe they have a better chance of survival.<BR>
Wins all around.  <BR>
<BR>
As far as the M16 is concerned, it is a popular myth that the weapon is<BR>
specifically designed to wound.  Nowhere does such specification exist (if<BR>
someone can produce such a document, I would love to see it).  The M-16,<BR>
like any military small arm, is designed to render the target as 'hors de<BR>
combat', i.e. no longer able to fight.  The desire is to produce a casualty.<BR>
Wounded or dead is not a consideration.<BR>
<BR>
From a logistical point of view, it is desirable to produce a wounded<BR>
soldier as opposed to a dead one, but this is rarely a consideration of<BR>
weapons design.  Modern warfare is generally seen as having such a limited<BR>
duration that things like this have very little meaning any more, and in the<BR>
case of counter-insurgency, is similarly unimportant, as the goal is to<BR>
remove the opposing combatant from action (dead or wounded accomplishes the<BR>
same).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:53:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair wrote :<BR>
><BR>
> Regarding some of the responses to the original plea to end this thread:<BR>
><BR>
> It is one of the pitfalls of modern liberalism (believe me,<BR>
> I'm one myself) is the tendency to assume that anyone holding<BR>
> an opinion different from one's own is ignorant or misinformed.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing to do with liberalism, that's just normal for humans<BR>
<BR>
> We are all rational beings,<BR>
<BR>
_I'm_ rational, I have serious doubts about you humans.<BR>
<BR>
> and thus anyone is able to achieve our own Enlightened state.<BR>
<BR>
Been there, done that, not worth the price of admission. <grin><BR>
<BR>
> Thus it is one's duty  to educate them about Rightthink, until<BR>
> they understand that they were  Wrong before.<BR>
<BR>
Er, no, that's not liberalism, that's "political correctness".<BR>
<BR>
There is a large difference, as those who claim to be liberal but support<BR>
political correctness, are totalitarians, not liberals. As usual,<BR>
totalitarians find it easy to use<BR>
_any_ cause to enforce conformity, even if it may seem to be a "liberal"<BR>
cause at first glance.<BR>
<BR>
> True diversity includes dissent.<BR>
<BR>
True. Which is why the following sentence should not follow it :<BR>
<BR>
> If someone complains that a subject is<BR>
> unpleasant to them, or states a position different from yours, please do<BR>
> not attempt to expand their consciousness and persuade them otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, not looking at a post, and not getting involved in a thread are always<BR>
options for those who find a post unpleasant. Or if they really can't take a<BR>
chance reading in a digest, they can leave the list. This is not a support<BR>
group or a "safe" area (though I'm sure most of us would be happy to support<BR>
people if they need it).<BR>
<BR>
Attempting to affect anothers style of posting, even if only by saying "I<BR>
don't like it", is getting involved and is an invitation for people to<BR>
respond.<BR>
<BR>
Basically, if you don't want responses, don't post.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:38:16 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
>> It is one of the pitfalls of modern liberalism (believe me, I'm one<BR>
myself) is the tendency to assume that anyone holding an opinion different<BR>
from one's own is ignorant or misinformed.<BR>
>><BR>
> Nothing to do with liberalism, that's just normal for humans.<BR>
><BR>
Well, I'm not a liberal, not really (but we're not gonna talk about gun<BR>
control) and I don't think people who differ from me are ignorant or<BR>
misinformed; however, informing them that others have thought differently<BR>
about the issue in question (whatever it may be) is not the same as telling<BR>
them they're misinformed.<BR>
<BR>
>> We are all rational beings,<BR>
>><BR>
>_I'm_ rational, I have serious doubts about you humans.<BR>
><BR>
I have never claimed to be rational, especially not about sex.  Anyone who<BR>
knows the whole Kiri and Hiroshi story would laugh their ass off at that<BR>
one.<BR>
<BR>
>> and thus anyone is able to achieve our own Enlightened state.<BR>
>><BR>
>Been there, done that, not worth the price of admission. <grin><BR>
><BR>
>> Thus it is one's duty  to educate them about Rightthink, until they<BR>
understand that they were  Wrong before.<BR>
>><BR>
>Er, no, that's not liberalism, that's "political correctness".<BR>
><BR>
Ew.  Glad I ate a while ago.<BR>
<BR>
I do not want to educate anyone about Rightthink because I think Rightthink<BR>
doesn't exist.  However, I felt that some of the initial requests to end the<BR>
thread were also an attempt to educate people about Rightthink, in the<BR>
traditional mode of "if it causes me the slightest disturbance, it must be<BR>
universally morally wrong."<BR>
<BR>
>> True diversity includes dissent.<BR>
>><BR>
That's very true.  And a strange assertion from someone who is essentially<BR>
asking people to censor themselves.<BR>
<BR>
>True. Which is why the following sentence should not follow it :<BR>
><BR>
>> If someone complains that a subject is unpleasant to them, or states a<BR>
position different from yours, please do not attempt to expand their<BR>
consciousness and persuade them otherwise.<BR>
>><BR>
I agree that it's never a good idea to try and convert people to your way of<BR>
thinking.  I can't stand evangelism on any subject.  Nonetheless, continuing<BR>
to state your opinion after someone dissents from it is not necessarily an<BR>
attempt to convert the dissenter.  Sometimes, for whatever reason, one just<BR>
has to say "Yes, I know you don't like this discussion, but there are<BR>
reasons to have it, these are the reasons, we're having it, and if you don't<BR>
want to participate in it, you don't have to."<BR>
<BR>
There are many subjects that are discussed on this and other mailing lists<BR>
that make me uncomfortable.  But I don't ask people not to talk about them.<BR>
As long as people are not being rudely sarcastic/nasty/mean-spirited, using<BR>
really foul or super-explicit sexual language, or making personal attacks, I<BR>
generally think most discussions are okay.  If people had been using<BR>
four-letter words or explicitly describing various sexual acts I would have<BR>
understood the objections better.   If there were any posts like that, I<BR>
didn't see them.<BR>
<BR>
There are lots of things that come in on my TV that are offensive to me.<BR>
When I see them I change the channel.  A lot of offensive email comes into<BR>
my box.  I delete it.  I get genuinely pornographic email all the time<BR>
because there are a couple of erotic websites I visit; some of it is gross.<BR>
But I know if I respond to the sender I will just have confirmed that this<BR>
email address exists and they will send me more.<BR>
<BR>
I occasionally get Christian spam.  I know if I complain to the sender they<BR>
will try to convert me, so I delete that too even though as a Buddhist with<BR>
Shinto tendencies I find it really annoying.  Generally if you respond to<BR>
something you find offensive you will end up continuing the discussion<BR>
rather than ending it.  If the person feels they have a legitimate right to<BR>
express their views on whatever they may get indignant and at the very least<BR>
you have lent energy to the situation.<BR>
<BR>
Just my 2.5 yen<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2770<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2771<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
Re: Tech development curve <BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
The Joys of Gun Control (On Topic) (long)<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:56:56 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
I know that...we get htem here too...you should see one of them...crudely hacked<BR>
from 'a day at the baseball with your son' to ' a day at the cricket with your<BR>
son'...I still think with a history of school shootings it's still a bit<BR>
tasteless..<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most tasteless<BR>
> > sig I have ever seen...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >> Andrew etc.<BR>
> >>   Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
> >>   Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
> >>   Shotgun $100<BR>
> >>   The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
><BR>
> It's a parody of a series of commercials for one of the major credit<BR>
> cards here in the US.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:46:13 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most tasteless<BR>
sig<BR>
>I have ever seen...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    So my Militant Jewish Terrorist sig was not the most tasteless sig you<BR>
have ever seen?<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:27:37 -0400<BR>
From: Walt Smith <smithw@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> Or you simply need a method of cleaning the pipe.  Running the<BR>
>> system while the grav tank is flying should be sufficient. <BR>
><BR>
>Nope. The air won't be at all that high a pressure without the ground<BR>
>providing back pressure, and the small bits that can start the<BR>
>combustion may not just blow off.<BR>
<BR>
I bow to your wisdom, Leonard.  30th century technology will<BR>
be unable to meet the challenge of cleaning a pipe. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:41:25 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
> Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Tech level development in the third Imperium is _not_ topping<BR>
> > out. In fact the rate of technological progress in the Imperium <BR>
> > is increasing:<BR>
> > TTL 12  -150<BR>
> > TTL 13   300<BR>
> > TTL 14      700<BR>
> > TTL 15    1,000<BR>
> > [MT Ref's Companion p34].<BR>
> > It took 450 years for the Imperium to gain TL 13, 400 years<BR>
> > to reach TL 14, and only 300 years to reach TL 15. The Imperium<BR>
> > already has some TL 16 worlds and (barring the Rebellion, or <BR>
> > Virus, or the Empress Wave, etc) might well reach TL 16 in<BR>
> > "only" 250 years or so.<BR>
<BR>
> Peter, I know you wouldn't dream of making an assumption that wasn't <BR>
> explicitly stated in a rulebook, so can you tell me where in the MT <BR>
> canon it states that there's a linear relationship between TL number <BR>
> and "technological progress"?<BR>
<BR>
Imperial planets tech levels are generated normally generated<BR>
with 1d6 +/- modifiers. As the cardinal distance between any<BR>
two integers rolled on the die are equal so must the results<BR>
thereof. :)<BR>
<BR>
However tech levels are a model of "the degree of technological<BR>
expertise" [MT Ref Man p 21] not of technological progress. My use<BR>
of the term 'progress' to describe a rise in tech levels was.<BR>
admittedly, not a value free statement. I would say that technological<BR>
progress is (overall) a good thing even absent any text evidence<BR>
thereof.<BR>
<BR>
If you wished to argue that an increase from TL 12 to TL 13<BR>
was an increase of 8.33% [13/12 = 1.08333], while an increase <BR>
from TL 13 to TL 14 is an increase of only 7.69% [14/13 = 1.0769],<BR>
and an increase from TL 14 to TL 15 is only 7.14% [15/14 = 1.0714],<BR>
I might accept this argument as correct. However even using this<BR>
criteria the rate of technical progress in the Imperium is<BR>
still increasing.<BR>
<BR>
An increase of 8.33% in 450 years is about 1.85% per century,<BR>
an increase of 7.69% in 400 years is about 1.92% per century,<BR>
and an increase of 7.14% in 300 years is about 2.38% per<BR>
century. Hence the rate of increase is rising. It might be<BR>
possible to use a regression analysis to analyze Imperial tech<BR>
level increases and thus determine when the Imperium will reach<BR>
TL 16 but that is 1) too much like work and 2) reasoning from too<BR>
few data points to get a good curve anyway.<BR>
<BR>
If you wished to argue that progress is measured solely by<BR>
maximum jump possible [1] than it took 450 years to go from Jump 3<BR>
[Tl 12] to Jump 4 [Tl 13], or 7.4% per century, 400 years<BR>
to go from Jump 4 to Jump 5 [Tl 14] or 6.3% per century, and<BR>
300 years to go from Jump 5 to Jump 6 [Tl 15] or 6.7% per<BR>
century than you would say that the rate of technological progress<BR>
is decreasing in the long term but has gone up in the short term.<BR>
I think that this would be an oversimplification however as jump<BR>
is not the only technology. <BR>
<BR>
[1] Barring misjumps.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:45:22 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
> It doesn't help that the material is 'technical' either.  I've see problems<BR>
>  where printers thought they were 'fixing' something. That trav stuff is<BR>
>  meaningless jibberish to them.<BR>
<BR>
I've never had a printer change text, but I once had a proofreader <BR>
unilaterally change the phrase "long-chain polymers" to "chain polymers" for <BR>
no reason she could express. <BR>
<BR>
Mistakes, goofs, and errors creep in despite our best efforts. Ya try to <BR>
catch them before it goes to print, but sometimes that doesn't happen.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:47:05 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech development curve <BR>
<BR>
"Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
> >Tech level development in the third Imperium is _not_ topping<BR>
> >out. In fact the rate of technological progress in the Imperium<BR>
> >is increasing:<BR>
<BR>
> On earth, we took thousands of years to go from 0 to 2, but have jumped<BR>
> from 4 to 8 within only one hundred years.  400 years to go up one level<BR>
> would seem to be a bit of a flattening of the curve. <BR>
<BR>
Yes it is. However I was discussing the fact that (at least<BR>
in my perception) the rate of technical progress in the<BR>
Imperium is more than it used to be in the Imperium's earlier<BR>
days, not comparing it to current Solomani rates of progress.<BR>
All those Imperial Research Stations presumably have a purpose<BR>
other than dungeon crawls for larcenous PC's, as such they<BR>
may actually produce useful data from time to time. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 04:54:48 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > Now, on a world with a small, fast moon, this method might become feasible.<BR>
> >  Keep a table of moon rises and sets compared to sunrise/set, and figure<BR>
> > from there. Still rough, but closer.<BR>
 <BR>
> Actually, small fast moons are a lot more likely than "big slow" ones<BR>
> like we have. <BR>
<BR>
Small fast moons are more likely on a planet than are big slow<BR>
ones they are not, however, necessarily more likely on a habitable<BR>
planet or at least on a planet with higher life.<BR>
<BR>
There is evidence that the axial tilt of Mars has varied far<BR>
more than the axial tilt of Earth. The moon helps keep the<BR>
Earths axial tilt relatively constant. Huge sudden shifts<BR>
in axial tilt (mar's axial tilt has varied between about 51%<BR>
and about 9%, IIRC) are likely to cause severe damage to<BR>
a bio system. Hence worlds with higher life forms may well<BR>
be more likely to have big slow ones.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:09:59 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
I am sorry for coming across in such an offending manner. But my point is <BR>
still valid. As gamers we have put up with alot of slipshod products in our <BR>
day. I have over 20 years experience in role playing. In the early days when <BR>
companies were shoestring businesses and their products only cost us a few <BR>
dollars a purchase this was not a problem for me. I own every Traveller book <BR>
published under the GDW banner with the exception of the "New Era" materials. <BR>
I am now purchasing the GURPS materials. And I appreciate the very nature of <BR>
the writer and editors' dilemma although I recognize I am not a professional <BR>
so do not know all the nuisances of the industry.  But I am a consumer. This <BR>
is the 21st century, the information age dominated by computers and such so I <BR>
expect to receive a quality product for my hard earned money. Yes, Mr. Miller <BR>
is not the publisher, but he is also not a neophyte to this business either. <BR>
His name is associated with this product. He is the one that receives the <BR>
praise and the flak for his products image and quality. I was particularly <BR>
amused by one fan's response that praised Mr. Miller for his sacrifices made <BR>
to publish the CT books. Spoken as if Mr. Miller was not being compensated <BR>
for this project as if it were a charity effort or something of that nature. <BR>
He is receiving monies generated from the sale of this product. I as a <BR>
consumer am simply stating my disatisfaction with a product being given to us <BR>
once again lacking quality controls or assurances.  Why did I cite Mr. Miller <BR>
directly, because he is the author and more importantly owns the copyright to <BR>
this material and is being paid from its sales. Why am I speaking out? <BR>
Because someone must. If we continue to be satisfied with poor publishing, <BR>
poor bindings, poor editing in the face of rising costs than whose fault is <BR>
it when books begin to hit the $50 a book price but quality doesnot increase? <BR>
I complained to LUG when the new Star Trek hard cover books came out and fell <BR>
apart within months of purchase. And I will complain when other manufacturers <BR>
provide slipshod products we are paying for.  Once again I apologize for <BR>
insulting your loyalty to the Traveller game, but I felt I was justified in <BR>
my comments. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:33:27 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
<BR>
Return it - are you mad?<BR>
<BR>
Keep it, protect it and buy a new copy.<BR>
<BR>
A pristine flawed copy could be worth money in the long run.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 11:38 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2768<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Hearing this fan's comment about the little flaw in his new CT<BR>
book just<BR>
> was<BR>
> >  too typical to not comment on.<BR>
><BR>
> Every printer makes mistakes in binding like this. It is not<BR>
something Marc<BR>
> has any control over -- and it is _not_ his fault. Anybody who does<BR>
printing<BR>
> for a living will tell you there is no way to escape the occasional<BR>
screwup<BR>
> -- I have found typos in books by every major publisher in the<BR>
world, as well<BR>
> as binding goofs, missing/blank pages, etc.<BR>
><BR>
> Don't dump on Marc for this one -- return the book and get a<BR>
non-flawed copy.<BR>
><BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:20:47 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
<BR>
I really like Traveller CT and GT because of the huge<BR>
background and the weird purity of things like UWPs.<BR>
<BR>
And since the JTAS varient article on kiloparsec<BR>
drives I'm really excited about doing a galaxy spanning<BR>
space opera.<BR>
<BR>
So little time so many games.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Boris Cibic <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 4:36 AM<BR>
Subject: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>  snipped<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:01:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: The Joys of Gun Control (On Topic) (long)<BR>
<BR>
Back in the old days when Lucy was just waking up<BR>
to a bright new morning in the Okovango Gorge<BR>
my friends and I started playing Traveller with<BR>
just the first 3 books (BTW I once designed the death<BR>
star using the original ship design system).<BR>
<BR>
We wandered around our bright shiny (non-canon for canon<BR>
had yet to be invented) subsector while the GM generally made<BR>
up the planets as we went along.<BR>
<BR>
As we arrived on each new planet we would step out to<BR>
greet each new civilisation wearing our battlesuits. We went<BR>
to meetings in them, to offices, even to pubs and after<BR>
tanking up we presumably went to the loo in them.<BR>
<BR>
I drifted away from Traveller and RPGs in general for a<BR>
number of years and then drifting back into the hobby<BR>
through Call of Chuthululu (bugger I never can spell it).<BR>
<BR>
In the first few games we swaggered around armed to the<BR>
teeth and loaded for elephant and of course died horribly.<BR>
<BR>
I then came (late) to 2300AD (which is a whole other<BR>
thread in its self) and this time I was a GM. This is when<BR>
I learned the joys of gun control and the usefullness of<BR>
really detailed combat systems.<BR>
<BR>
Out in the wilderness(1) players could cart around whatever<BR>
they liked but once they hit civilisation they had to leave the<BR>
guns at home. There was a tacit unspoken agreement between<BR>
us that I wasn't going to have some NPC bushwack them<BR>
with a plasma gun as they came out of the customs office so<BR>
they could afford to walk around like 'normal' people.<BR>
<BR>
Before anyone gets outraged, some of the 'normal' people<BR>
carried pistols.<BR>
<BR>
Keeping the arms carrying level down not only created a more<BR>
realistic feel but allowed me to escalate situations from a much<BR>
lower base and thus I could keep on ratcheting things up much<BR>
longer before I got to the orbital fire support stage.<BR>
<BR>
With a group of lightly armed players you can get the adrenaline<BR>
going by having someone turn up with a shot gun.<BR>
<BR>
However I found that for these kinds of very low level combats<BR>
to be truly entertaining it helps to have a really detailed combat<BR>
system. I hybridised the movement and orders system from Skirmish<BR>
Wargames Groups 'Old West' book with the 2300 initiative system<BR>
and hit location system - that seemed to work well.<BR>
<BR>
An example was when a group of players armed only with pistols<BR>
stumbled across a group of pentapod smugglers (2) in a Libreville<BR>
office/shop complex. A very fierce gunfight broke out involving<BR>
much diving for cover, ducking through doorways, anxious sweeps<BR>
up corridors and (of course) smashing of plate glass windows. The<BR>
arrival of corporate security and the (corrupt) Libreville Police (my<BR>
players had their own reasons not to want to talk to either) led to<BR>
a very confused situation. The whole thing took 3 hours to play<BR>
through<BR>
and we didn't actually notice the time it was taking - we were having<BR>
that much fun.<BR>
<BR>
In this case the detailled nature of the combat system facilitated<BR>
role<BR>
play because it allowed me to manage the microfocus of players<BR>
actions.<BR>
(I was very impressed by one player who true to his character spent<BR>
quite alot of the fight cowering under a table before screwing up his<BR>
courage enough to trip one of the smugglers as she ran past.)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway I'm not actually sure what the point of this post is except to<BR>
say that microfocus can be tremendous fun if you can get your players<BR>
to (ahem) play along.<BR>
<BR>
(1) BTW, in my experience people that actually operate in<BR>
wilderness areas (such as parts of Africa) with dangerous animals<BR>
(and some people)tend to carry minimal equipment. Lisenced<BR>
Wildlife Guides in Zimbabwe carry just their rifle but they are very<BR>
experienced and very well trained. One guy I knew carried a pistol<BR>
and a packet of flares, he said the flares were more useful for<BR>
scaring off lions etc than the pistol or the rifle.<BR>
<BR>
(2) They were humans smuggling pentapods.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 05:45:36 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
<BR>
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> And Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> >This contradicts the canon evidence in the Darrians AM.<BR>
> > <BR>
> >"It took only a short time to go from the Solomani tech level_10_ to 16.<BR>
> >It took even less time for the Darrians to go from their own tech level<BR>
> >3 to the wholesale adoption of Solomani theories and engineering."<BR>
> >[AM 8 Darrians p 10]<BR>
> > <BR>
> >The terrans were indeed TL 12 during the Rule of Man. However the Rule of<BR>
> >Man "collapsed in -1776" [op cit p 9]. <BR>
> <BR>
> That is an arbitrary date chosen because of a specific historical event<BR>
> unrelated to tech levels.<BR>
<BR>
Not necessarily. Canon evidence from the Rebellion, Hard<BR>
Times, and the Virus era clearly establishes that social<BR>
collapse and the cessation of interstellar trade can, and <BR>
often does result in decreased tech levels. MT's Hard Times<BR>
establishes that Tl can fall when trade falls even absent the<BR>
physical destruction of planetary facilities.<BR>
<BR>
Yes -1776 is arbitrary but canon says [of -1776] "Although<BR>
the Imperium did not completely fall apart for many years, the<BR>
Rule of Man had effectively ceased to exist as a viable interstellar<BR>
community and the period known as Twilight had begun." [MT I.E. p 36]<BR>
<BR>
It also states that "The end of Twilight is commonly accepted<BR>
as the year -1526, when the last governmental body claiming<BR>
to be the Rule of Man ceased to exist." [op cit p43]. Hence<BR>
when the Itzin fleet set out in -1520 Twilight was over.<BR>
<BR>
> >The Itzin fleet which colonized Darrian did not set out until -1520 [op <BR>
> >cit] and reached Darrian in -1511. Canonically the fleet, which hailed<BR>
> >from Dingir in the Solomani Rim, was TL 10. <BR>
> <BR>
> I wonder if that's even possible. That would make the Itzin fleet jump-1<BR>
> and there is, IIRC, about 270 parsecs from Dingir to Darrian in a straight<BR>
> line (or rather, two straight lines as they would have to make a dogleg<BR>
> through Vland). At an average of 10 days a jump it would take 2700 days or<BR>
> about 7.4 year. <BR>
<BR>
Given the astrographic features they would have had to cross<BR>
the fleet would have had to be capable of 3 consecutive jump<BR>
ones. Thus it could jump (an average of 7 days), recalibrate<BR>
for a day, jump, recalibrate, jump, take four days to refuel,<BR>
and jump again, thus averaging 10 days per jump, per your estimate. <BR>
<BR>
> I suppose it is theoretically possible, but it sure isn't likely. Jump-2<BR>
> would be much better. Ah well...<BR>
<BR>
Yes it would be.<BR>
<BR>
> >The fleet may have been aware that TL 11 & 12 were possible but they could<BR>
> >not build them or else they would have been Tl 11 or 12 not merely Tl 10.<BR>
 <BR>
> That does not follow. The Itzin fleet was a civilian project. Budgetary<BR>
> considerations may have made them buy obsolete ships. But whether or not<BR>
> Dingir had fallen to TL 10 at the time, the TL 12 knowledge would still<BR>
> be available and an emigrant fleet would surely have carried a complete<BR>
> technological database with them.<BR>
<BR>
That is logical, unfortunately canon clearly establishes that <BR>
they were TL 10. I take this to mean that they were capable<BR>
of building TL 10 items. They may have known that TL 11 and 12<BR>
were possible but could not have built them or they would<BR>
have been TL 11 or 12. Now if you want to argue that they<BR>
could have used their TL 10 ships machine shops to (eventually)<BR>
build items that could than build TL 11 or 12 items you may be <BR>
correct.<BR>
<BR>
> >In general the Darrians are portrayed as a remarkably rationalistic<BR>
> >people. The Darrians had no nearby neighbors to stop them. I would<BR>
> >say that barring the Magiz the Darrian Empire would, at the least,<BR>
> >occupy most of the Domain of Deneb<BR>
<BR>
> The Darrians are also portrayed as not at all expansionistic and as<BR>
> practicing very severe population control from way back in their history<BR>
> (The orchards are said to be able to feed a million apiece, yet the<BR>
> Darrians stayed at a population of 100,000 in each for many thousands of<BR>
> years). They did grow a little, but I would expect the Darrians to stay<BR>
> fairly small.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that their population per planet would be small but<BR>
given that the Darrians canonically established 11 colonies<BR>
in 150 years [ -1250 to -1100] and that these world then began<BR>
to trade amongst themselves [AM 8 Darrians p10] it does not <BR>
seem unreasonable that, absent the Maghiz, the Darrian colonies <BR>
would not have established colonies of their own. These colonies <BR>
would then have established colonies of their own, etc. The notion <BR>
of a thousand Darrian worlds by - 500 or so does not seem implausible <BR>
to me. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
I also note that "It was a natural belief among the Darrians<BR>
that they could easily push their tech level to 22 or 23 in<BR>
the next 400 years [by -700] [op cit]. Given that the Darrians<BR>
of that time have a far better understanding of what rapid<BR>
technological progress at Stellar tech levels requires than<BR>
we do today I see no reason to assume that, absent the Maghiz<BR>
or Ancient intervention, this belief would not have been correct.<BR>
<BR>
> >Given that jump drives of Tl 17 or greater use less fuel and that anti<BR>
> >matter power plants are small Darrian ships of TL 20 or so would not<BR>
> >have been significantly hindered by the Great Rift since they would have<BR>
> >been able to easily manage 2 consecutive jump 6's.<BR>
> <BR>
> Undoubtedly. And they would go. But they wouldn't go as conquerors and<BR>
> settlers. They would go as explorers and teachers. <BR>
<BR>
If you have ten or fifteen tech levels on someone all the<BR>
good intentions in the world may not stop you from wrecking <BR>
their society. If you disapprove of their society paternalism<BR>
is easily developed. See the records of the European conquest<BR>
of Earth for an example of what happened when the difference<BR>
was only one to four tech levels. See Kipling's 'White Man's<BR>
Burden' for a possible example of the Darrian attitude.<BR>
<BR>
> >The Aslan did not cross the Great Rift until -1044 and did not reach the<BR>
> >area of Darrian until the eve of the First Frontier War. If not for the<BR>
> >Magiz the coreward Aslan would still be in the Riftspan Reaches sector. <BR>
<BR>
> >Nor were the Imperial in the area until much later.<BR>
> <BR>
> But the Vilani and the Syleans could have been visited by Darrians around<BR>
> - -500 and be expanding like crazy several centuries ahead of schedule.<BR>
<BR>
I don't think the Vilani would have responded well to the<BR>
Darrians who would have seen them as the Solomani (only ten<BR>
times worse). Nor do I think they would have gone as far as<BR>
Sylea. YMMV but I was thinking that they would have colonized<BR>
most planets within one sector (in all directions) of Darrian <BR>
and explored out to about four sectors in all directions.<BR>
<BR>
> >While some Zhodani  traders reached as far as Corridor as early as -2,000<BR>
> >the Consulate itself showed little interest in expanding into this area. <BR>
> <BR>
> No, but they would have encountered the Darrians (or vice versa) quite<BR>
> soon after -900. It was pure dumb luck that the Darrians and the Zhodani<BR>
> didn't meet before the _Maghiz_.<BR>
<BR>
I would be more likely to explain it by noting that the<BR>
Zhodani were turning inward, and coreward, by this point.<BR>
[AM 5]. The Zhodani had encountered Vilani traders around<BR>
- -2000 and the Consulate reached its present size around<BR>
- -1000, but it took the Zhodani until _460_ to trade with<BR>
the Aslan in the Trojan Reaches. I see the Zhodani rimward<BR>
trailing frontier (the Spinward Marches) as being fairly static<BR>
after -1000. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
> >Nor did the Vargr's move very far into the Spinward Marches even absent<BR>
> >the Imperium to keep them out. AM 3 Vargr establishes that the Vargr were<BR>
> >in Gvurrdon Sector around -2,800 but did not move into the Marches.<BR>
<BR>
> True. The Vargr of Gvurrdon must have suffered their own version of a<BR>
> collapse and a Long Night. <BR>
<BR>
I thought everyone knew that Grandfathers pocket universe was<BR>
giving off a psionic 'Keep of the grass' signal to all the<BR>
Vargr within half a sector or so. Granfather must not want<BR>
dogs on his lawns.... :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:20:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I know that...we get htem here too...you should see one of<BR>
> them...crudely hacked from 'a day at the baseball with your son' to '<BR>
> a day at the cricket with your son'...<BR>
<BR>
Hey you "stupid furriners" aren't supposed to notice that (or I bet<BR>
that's the way the ad execs think).<BR>
<BR>
> I still think with a history of school shootings it's still a bit<BR>
> tasteless..<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't thought of those, my first thought was an armed robbery.<BR>
<BR>
Or somebody in a cyberpunk game... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:24:44 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>>> Or you simply need a method of cleaning the pipe.  Running the<BR>
>>> system while the grav tank is flying should be sufficient. <BR>
>><BR>
>>Nope. The air won't be at all that high a pressure without the ground<BR>
>>providing back pressure, and the small bits that can start the<BR>
>>combustion may not just blow off.<BR>
><BR>
> I bow to your wisdom, Leonard.  30th century technology will<BR>
> be unable to meet the challenge of cleaning a pipe. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
I didn't say that. Just that your proposed solution wouldn't<BR>
necessarily work. <BR>
<BR>
Me, I'd use some sort of close fitting "piston". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:26:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> It doesn't help that the material is 'technical' either.  I've see problems<BR>
>>  where printers thought they were 'fixing' something. That trav stuff is<BR>
>>  meaningless jibberish to them.<BR>
><BR>
> I've never had a printer change text, but I once had a proofreader <BR>
> unilaterally change the phrase "long-chain polymers" to "chain polymers" for <BR>
> no reason she could express. <BR>
<BR>
I still think the *classic* has to be the "correction" someone put into<BR>
one edition of "The Mote in God's Eye". Larry Niven *personally*<BR>
corrected the correction in my copy when he autographed it. <BR>
<BR>
I don't recall the exact line, but the person changed one *letter*. And<BR>
*complete* messed up a scene.<BR>
<BR>
The change was along the lines of changing:<BR>
	"They should have been spaced."<BR>
to:<BR>
	"They should have been spared."<BR>
<BR>
Just a *minor* change...  :-(<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 06:30:12 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> It is one of the pitfalls of modern liberalism (believe me,<BR>
> I'm one myself) is the tendency to assume that anyone holding<BR>
> an opinion different from one's own is ignorant or misinformed.<BR>
<BR>
In some cases one can be *certain* that they are ignorant of some<BR>
things that you know.<BR>
<BR>
>> We are all rational beings,<BR>
<BR>
Oh?<BR>
<BR>
>> Thus it is one's duty  to educate them about Rightthink, until<BR>
>> they understand that they were  Wrong before.<BR>
<BR>
No, but when you you know that you have facts that might result in<BR>
their reconsidering some things, it's ok to point them out. Just don't<BR>
expect them to fall all over themselves agreeing with you. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>> True diversity includes dissent.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, it only includes dissent about matters of *opinion*. Which is<BR>
why the "there was no Holocaust" folks are beyond the pale. Ditto for<BR>
the Flat Earthers.<BR>
<BR>
>> If someone complains that a subject is<BR>
>> unpleasant to them, or states a position different from yours, please do<BR>
>> not attempt to expand their consciousness and persuade them otherwise.<BR>
<BR>
Informing them that other people do *not* share thier views is not the<BR>
same thing. And is not only *permitted*, it's required in a "healthy"<BR>
society. At least if they are being dogmatic, and you can keep your<BR>
response from being dogmatic. <BR>
<BR>
But getting "in their face" about it is a different matter.<BR>
<BR>
Also, keep in mind that members of any sort of even "semi-oppressed"<BR>
(or merely "badly misunderstood") minority *is* going to react to<BR>
anything implying that there's something wrong with their group.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: make the wrong "innocent comment" on some worlds, or in some<BR>
areas on some worlds, and things could *rapidly* get ugly.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2771<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2772</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/17/00 11:16:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2772<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
The Early Adventures (missing material)<BR>
Re: Allegiance Codes<BR>
BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
Re:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Vs: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Partial gravity<BR>
Questions on Striker Designs<BR>
Striker - Point Defense Tables<BR>
Striker Design Question - Autofire Bonus<BR>
Re: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 05:51:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Maybe they did anf the Maghiz was the punishment...<BR>
<BR>
> Conspiracy theorists might also point fingers at the Zhodani, who were<BR>
> around before the Maghiz but *supposedly* didn't drop by.  Perhaps there<BR>
> is a loonie fringe that claims the Zhodani loosed the Maghiz on the <BR>
> Darrians (despite all the sensible arguments why this is totally bogus).<BR>
<BR>
After all it is not as if the Zhodani could have controlled <BR>
the minds of the Darrian researchers and implanted suggestions <BR>
like:<BR>
<BR>
"You do not need to run computer models of this project before<BR>
trying it out on your sun." <BR>
"You do not need to coordinate your research projects"<BR>
"You do not need to try them on the sun of an unimportant<BR>
colony first."<BR>
<BR>
Now is it? ;)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:14:45 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
> I am sorry for coming across in such an offending manner. But my point is <BR>
<BR>
Are you apologizing for *being* offensive or merely for being taken as<BR>
offensive. My reading of your words is the latter, which makes your<BR>
"apology" not much of one.<BR>
<BR>
On a side note, your formatting makes it very difficult to read your note.<BR>
You present us with an extensive chunk of text formatted as a single<BR>
paragraph. I'm not willing to make the non-trivial effort of trying to<BR>
impute paragraph breaks where they ought to be. <BR>
<BR>
While you may have a valid gripe about a printing (more precisely binding)<BR>
goof, you proceed from that molehill and create of it a mountain of<BR>
alleged incompetence and greed. You rant and rave over a minor glitch<BR>
(that did not cause loss of data), and proceed to rant about every other<BR>
problem you have seen or experienced with gaming products.<BR>
<BR>
You purport to apologize to the "old guard". In fact, you make what is at<BR>
best a pale imitation of a true apology. You to not actually acknowledge<BR>
that fault for which you purport to apologize. You immediately follow up<BR>
with a rambling rant. You make irrelevant remarks that demonstrate that<BR>
you either are ignorant of the process by which the Traveller Reprints are<BR>
being published ("look Ma! no typesetting required!") or deliberately<BR>
deprecate it. <BR>
<BR>
No evidence has yet been adduced to support even a suggestion of misfeasance<BR>
let along malfeasance on Marc Miller's part. Neither has such been put<BR>
forth to suggest that he is unwilling to replace the defective product with<BR>
a sound copy.<BR>
<BR>
I confess that your name is new to me. I don't recall seeing many posts<BR>
(if any) by you before this. Proceeding on the assumption that you are<BR>
new to this group, I suggest that you think your approach through before<BR>
you make any more substantive posts. The impression you leave with me <BR>
is one of rudeness and selfishness. I hope I am mistaken, and that you<BR>
will become a civilized member of this group.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 02:22:35 +1200<BR>
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Jul 00, at 6:26, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> > I've never had a printer change text, but I once had a proofreader <BR>
> > unilaterally change the phrase "long-chain polymers" to "chain polymers" for<BR>
> > no reason she could express. <BR>
<BR>
> I still think the *classic* has to be the "correction" someone put into<BR>
> one edition of "The Mote in God's Eye". Larry Niven *personally*<BR>
> corrected the correction in my copy when he autographed it. <BR>
<BR>
> I don't recall the exact line, but the person changed one *letter*. And<BR>
> *complete* messed up a scene.<BR>
<BR>
The best I've seen is a brochure for a major insurance company that <BR>
proudly proclaimed that they would insure you for death or injury whilst <BR>
travelling in any cat. Bottom line is that while typesetters, proof readers, <BR>
authors and editors strive for perfection; they are still only human. The <BR>
original error (the one that sparked all this) sounds rather like two sheets <BR>
fed during collating (could be caused by a bit of moisture on the sheets, a <BR>
mechnanical error in the collating machine, or any one of a hundred other <BR>
causes).<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Spaceships are terribly complicated machines to be placed in the <BR>
tender hands of evil umpires.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:21:18 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 Olegamer@aol.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>(rant goes here) <BR>
<BR>
I wonder, if this is just a one-time flawed printing job, can't the<BR>
wounded party exchange it for a better copy if he feels it's necessary?<BR>
Printing mistakes happen.  Several years ago, I purchased Shadowrun, and<BR>
several pages of my copy were blank.  Obviously not recognizing this as a<BR>
personal insult against me, I simply exchanged it for a complete copy and<BR>
forgot the whole thing.<BR>
And Marc Miller is the copyright holder, but he wasn't working the<BR>
printing machines and can't be expected to count the pages in every copy<BR>
he sends out.  I don't see what he could have done about this, except<BR>
allowing an exchange if it's requested.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:23:50 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
At 05:51 AM 07/17/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu> wrote<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > > Maybe they did anf the Maghiz was the punishment...<BR>
><BR>
> > Conspiracy theorists might also point fingers at the Zhodani, who were<BR>
> > around before the Maghiz but *supposedly* didn't drop by.  Perhaps there<BR>
> > is a loonie fringe that claims the Zhodani loosed the Maghiz on the<BR>
> > Darrians (despite all the sensible arguments why this is totally bogus).<BR>
><BR>
>After all it is not as if the Zhodani could have controlled<BR>
>the minds of the Darrian researchers and implanted suggestions<BR>
>like:<BR>
><BR>
>"You do not need to run computer models of this project before<BR>
>trying it out on your sun."<BR>
>"You do not need to coordinate your research projects"<BR>
>"You do not need to try them on the sun of an unimportant<BR>
>colony first."<BR>
<BR>
"These aren't the droids you're looking for..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:37:51 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: The Early Adventures (missing material)<BR>
<BR>
The following is a bit of source material for Adventure 3 that DGP<BR>
inadvertantly left out of THE EARLY ADVENTURES when it was being compiled.<BR>
********<BR>
<BR>
       SHURGI MAIN: The Shurgi Main is a branch of the Vland Main, and was<BR>
settled during the First Imperium. The Corridor sector was first entered at<BR>
the world Sharkagu (Corridor 3235) by ships of the Sharurshid Merchant<BR>
Company out of Sakin (Vland 0135). Sharkagu, only one jump away, strongly<BR>
resembled Sakin and the colony there has maintained close relations with<BR>
the mother planet throughout its history; indeed, it never requested<BR>
independence throughout the Long Night, and remains a Sakin colony to this<BR>
day.<BR>
<BR>
     At Cafad (Corridor 3135), a low-tech human population was discovered.<BR>
The Vilani efforts to integrate the Cafad humans into their Grand Imperium<BR>
progressed slowly. The world relapsed into barbarism at the onset of the<BR>
Long Night. After centuries of contact with the Third Imperium, Cafad has<BR>
only now started to re-embrace technology.<BR>
<BR>
     Igudi (Corridor 2836) discarded most technology during the Long Night.<BR>
Its climate is quite hospitable to humans, and the inhabitants prefer an<BR>
essentially pastoral existence.  Certain native animals have been<BR>
domesticated for food and wool. The populace has shown very little<BR>
inclination to technological advancement since the original contact by the<BR>
Third Imperium in the first century. Inter- stellar merchants occasionally<BR>
visit the world to trade with the locals.<BR>
<BR>
     Palama (Corridor 3240) was only recently colonized because its<BR>
resources were not detected until the Tech Level 15 density survey. Its<BR>
dense, tainted atmosphere made it unattractive to ordinary colonists.<BR>
     <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:53:14 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Allegiance Codes<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/16/00 12:31:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> Allegiance Codes...<BR>
<BR>
I think I have a slightly more updated one, though still outdated maybe.....<BR>
<BR>
Try looking at members.aol.com\kagehira\traveller<BR>
<BR>
If not, and presuming my days off don't get canceled yet again I'll get it <BR>
posted by Friday.<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:00:27 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
I'm planning to start a Traveller variant campaign using Battlestar <BR>
Galactica as the theme.  I snooped around battlestargalactica.com, and <BR>
while they had some stellar artwork, they didn't have what I <BR>
need.  Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction to find the <BR>
following:<BR>
<BR>
Size specs for the Galactica and other craft used<BR>
Performance specs for the above items<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:05:17 EDT<BR>
From: Kagehira@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/17/00 6:50:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
>  > I still think with a history of school shootings it's still a bit<BR>
>  > tasteless..<BR>
>  <BR>
>  I hadn't thought of those, my first thought was an armed robbery.<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Or somebody in a cyberpunk game... :-)<BR>
<BR>
I thought it was either the Matrix or T2.......and I thought I was obsessed <BR>
by the school shootings....<BR>
<BR>
Bryan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:36:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org><BR>
Subject: RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 08:00:19 +0300, Ken J. Kazinski <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I hate to say it this way  but, it really depends on your perspective.<BR>
> A dead soldier only takes 2 people to take care of him.  A wounded<BR>
> soldier takes about 20.  Also during a battle, a dead soldier is left,<BR>
> while a wounded soldier is taken care of and defended.  The M-16 was<BR>
> designed to wound and not to kill.                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Tod, do you want to correct him, or shall I? :^)<BR>
<BR>
        - Mark C.<BR>
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy<BR>
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75<BR>
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR<BR>
          NRA (Life), GOA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)<BR>
          Front Sight First Family member #1<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com<BR>
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com<BR>
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
          64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.<BR>
                  Somehow, it didn't make the news.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:45:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
At 08:00 AM 7/17/2000 +0300, you wrote:<BR>
>I hate to say it this way  but, it really depends on your perspective.<BR>
>A dead soldier only takes 2 people to take care of him.  A wounded<BR>
>soldier takes about 20.  Also during a battle, a dead soldier is left,<BR>
>while a wounded soldier is taken care of and defended.  The M-16 was<BR>
>designed to wound and not to kill.  I am not taking a moral stand on<BR>
>which is right, just pointing out something of interest.<BR>
<BR>
No, No, NO!  That M-16 story is a myth, and an old one at that.<BR>
<BR>
There is no truth at all to the story that the M-16 series assault rifle<BR>
was designed to only wound enemy troops.  It was designed to provide<BR>
American soldiers with a lighter, more effective weapon than the heavy M-14.<BR>
<BR>
The caliber was changed from 7.62mm to 5.56mm to allow each soldioer to<BR>
carry more ammo.  In practise, the 5.56x45mm proved to be extremely lethal,<BR>
since it tended to deposit all of it's energy in the target, as oppossed to<BR>
the larger rounds which punched through with nothing more that keyholing.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to wound troops, use grenades.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:48:29<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
At 06:26 AM 7/17/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I still think the *classic* has to be the "correction" someone put into<BR>
>one edition of "The Mote in God's Eye". Larry Niven *personally*<BR>
>corrected the correction in my copy when he autographed it. <BR>
<BR>
If you can find it, grab a copy of the first printing of Ringworld.  Niven<BR>
has Earth rotating the wrong direction.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:56:30<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
At 10:05 PM 7/16/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>It's a parody of a series of commercials for one of the major credit<BR>
>cards here in the US.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Six Gauss Rifles, with Ammo:           Cr10,800<BR>
Disable codes for the ship's computer: Cr5,000<BR>
Six Middle Passages:                   Cr48,000<BR>
Pulling off the perfect hijacking:     Priceless<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
  http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/<BR>
                --|--<BR>
There's only us.      There's only this.<BR>
    No other way.     No other path.<BR>
          No day but today.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:59:04<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
At 02:20 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
>but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
>dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
<BR>
2300AD suffered from FASA Syndrome: Great setting, so-so rules.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:00:37<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
At 04:39 PM 7/16/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Doug? I think you neeed to have a shugili check whatever it is you are<BR>
>eating or drinking.<BR>
<BR>
Just having a can of Kaakaagaa Kaaka.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:15:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
John Wood writes:<BR>
<BR>
>         http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Sectors/Windhorn.html<BR>
> <BR>
> If anybody wants to take it further, feel free. Anthony, if you want to<BR>
> try generating trade info from it we might be able to see how well<BR>
> completely random generation fits with surrounding sectors...<BR>
<BR>
Not like surrounding sectors aren't completely random.  It forced me to find a better version of Meshan sector, but once I did that the map looks fine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
<BR>
> If you want to wound troops, use grenades.<BR>
<BR>
Or antipersonell mines.  Blowing off feet cripples people reliably, and is relatively rarely lethal, and is thus more or less ideal if your goal is lots of wounded people.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:22:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> I agree that their population per planet would be small but<BR>
> given that the Darrians canonically established 11 colonies<BR>
> in 150 years [ -1250 to -1100] and that these world then began<BR>
> to trade amongst themselves [AM 8 Darrians p10] it does not <BR>
> seem unreasonable that, absent the Maghiz, the Darrian colonies <BR>
> would not have established colonies of their own. These colonies <BR>
> would then have established colonies of their own, etc. The notion <BR>
> of a thousand Darrian worlds by - 500 or so does not seem implausible <BR>
> to me. YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
[ deletions for the sake of brevity ]<BR>
 <BR>
> If you have ten or fifteen tech levels on someone all the<BR>
> good intentions in the world may not stop you from wrecking <BR>
> their society. If you disapprove of their society paternalism<BR>
> is easily developed. See the records of the European conquest<BR>
> of Earth for an example of what happened when the difference<BR>
> was only one to four tech levels. See Kipling's 'White Man's<BR>
> Burden' for a possible example of the Darrian attitude.<BR>
<BR>
Although I tend to agree that Maghiz-free Darrians *could* have crept up<BR>
into the Ancients' technological territory, a universe infested by them<BR>
probably wouldn't be a very interesting place for *gaming* (for much the<BR>
same reasons that campaigns set in the "Star Trek" universe are usually<BR>
either painfully dull, or don't "feel" very much like "Star Trek").  I'd<BR>
say that technology starts getting "incomprehensibly magical" at, say,<BR>
Tech Level 18, or perhaps 19.  Now, here's the challenge: coming up with a<BR>
good reason for Maghiz-free Darrians whose technological "cutting edge" is<BR>
"only" at Tech Level 18 (in the same sense that the canonical Third<BR>
Imperium had a handful of Tech Level 16 worlds during the "Classic Era",<BR>
but was "really" only Tech Level 15).<BR>
                                                              - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:25:59<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
At 10:20 AM 7/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> If you want to wound troops, use grenades.<BR>
><BR>
>Or antipersonell mines.  Blowing off feet cripples people reliably, and is<BR>
relatively rarely lethal, and is thus more or less ideal if your goal is<BR>
lots of wounded people.<BR>
<BR>
Forget feet, the M-16A1 "Bouncing Betty" will wound everyone in a fairly<BR>
large radius, requiring immediate evacuation.  The poor sap who triggered<BR>
it will be toast, just about everybody within 5 meters will catch a pellet<BR>
or twelve.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:28:42 -0700<BR>
From: sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote: <BR>
<BR>
> I hate to really drop on people...but this has got to be the most<BR>
> tasteless sig I have ever seen...<BR>
> <BR>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> ><BR>
> > Andrew etc.<BR>
> >   Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
> >   Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
> >   Shotgun $100<BR>
> >   The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
> <BR>
> Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, I thought it was *exceedingly* funny.  A fine antidote to all <BR>
the fear and distrust of geeks and freaks, and similar self-serving <BR>
nonsense that the actions of those two nutballs stirred up in the <BR>
US.  Excellent sig!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:23:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>The M-16 was<BR>
> designed to wound and not to kill.  I am not taking a moral stand on<BR>
> which is right, just pointing out something of interest.<BR>
<BR>
Err....I admit I'm not exactly the greatest weapons expert in the world, but<BR>
how was the M-16 designed to wound? It's a high-velocity assault rifle.<BR>
<BR>
The only weapons I'm aware of wound-not-kill being a consideration in the<BR>
design of are AP land mines. Or perhaps I should say *were* land mines,<BR>
because as good civilised countries we don't make those any more.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:28:50 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
> I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
> but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
> dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
<BR>
You English, sir?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:46:08 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Robert O'Connor <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
To: TML <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 3:19 AM<BR>
Subject: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
> me to desist.<BR>
> <BR>
Please do continue. This is all relevant and interesting.<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:06:36 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 07:18:54 EDT<BR>
>From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>In a message dated 7/15/00 6:16:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,<BR>
>eris@pcola.gulf.net writes about the Classic Traveller Reprints:<BR>
><BR>
><<<BR>
> I did notice that part of the Fighting Ships and Solomani Rim<BR>
> supplement was repeated in my copy.  Fortunately, it looks like this<BR>
> binding error didn't short me in any of the other supplements as it<BR>
> looks like all the pages are there, with just these 8 pages doubled<BR>
> up.<BR>
>  >><BR>
><BR>
>So even after all these years there is still errata??<BR>
<BR>
<snip most of rant><BR>
<BR>
>Sorry if I offend.<BR>
<BR>
Well I just got my copy of this volume also and it didn't contain this<BR>
misprint.<BR>
So I'd have to say that Eris is the lucky recipient of a rare (and soon to<BR>
be<BR>
valuable on e-bay) collectible.<BR>
<BR>
Oh and anybody who thinks any Traveller product is Horrendously sloppy in<BR>
the<BR>
errata department ought to take a look at the Original Dungeons & Dragons.<BR>
Those books make FFS2 look like a model of clarity.<BR>
<BR>
Oh and anybody looking for a copy of the original Striker rules might want<BR>
to check out availability with Marc. I couldn't believe any were still<BR>
available<BR>
so imagine my surprise when I found them available and reasonably priced.<BR>
($20 + S&H) I am now in total CT heaven at the moment and may stay there<BR>
for quite some time.<BR>
<BR>
Also still available are: the Conflict Game Company edition of Imperium,<BR>
CT Alien modules 2 and 5, MT Refs Companion and Rebellion Sourcebook,<BR>
and the CT rules in Spanish. Hola Travelleros indeed.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:54:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Partial gravity<BR>
<BR>
I was wondering about partial gravity:  Would one lose bone mass/muscle<BR>
strength proportionally with decreasing gravity, or might there be some<BR>
theshold above which these effects would be negligible?  What got me<BR>
thinking were plans to have astronauts stay on Mars for extended periods<BR>
of time (would .34 g be enough to keep them healthy?) but it occurred to<BR>
me that this would tie in to an earlier thread here about the small worlds<BR>
which are most common in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
AFAIK (and that isn't very far) there haven't been any studies on humans<BR>
in partial gravity and I can't find any on animals either.  Anyone know of<BR>
research like this?  If there hasn't been any, how do we know that partial<BR>
gravity (above a certain point) will any negative effects at all?<BR>
<BR>
Just some thoughts...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:19:35 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Questions on Striker Designs<BR>
<BR>
What is the volume of the Remote MRL Equipment for a MRL launcher?<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:24:26 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Striker - Point Defense Tables<BR>
<BR>
Where are the values for point defense weapons?  Do you use the direct<BR>
fire tables?<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:37:36 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Striker Design Question - Autofire Bonus<BR>
<BR>
Does a MRL launcher get a autofire bonus?  Also, what is the number of<BR>
targets?<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:15:24 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> All those Imperial Research Stations presumably have a purpose<BR>
> other than dungeon crawls for larcenous PC's, as such they<BR>
> may actually produce useful data from time to time. :)<BR>
<BR>
I dunno Peter - I don't think canon supports this argument. <BR>
Though my references are at home, I can't remember a single<BR>
research station presented as anything but a dungeon crawl.<BR>
<BR>
I mean, it's canon.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2773</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2773<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
RE: Tech development curve<BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Errors<BR>
RE: Errors<BR>
The Traveller Movie<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
re:  Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:19:08 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
> This is an attempt to cover the effects of varied gravitation,<BR>
> acceleration protection (and its lack) on characters.<BR>
> <BR>
> The proposed outline is as follows :-<BR>
> i. General Considerations<BR>
> - adaptive reflexes for the short term<BR>
> - effects of big brief accelerations<BR>
<BR>
Very nice, as usual! Someone should collect all of Roberts medico stuff<BR>
into a single volume...something like "the Ship's Doctor's Manual' This<BR>
is good stuff.<BR>
<BR>
> My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
> me to desist.<BR>
<BR>
Heck...you're posting on-topic, useful information! What a horrible<BR>
waste of bandwidth!!! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:20:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
><BR>
>Source: US Army Field Manual 1-301, Aeromedical Training for Flight<BR>
>Personnel, May 1987 (courtesy Christopher Thrash).<BR>
><BR>
	Gotta find me a copy of this - is an electronic copy available somewhere?<BR>
><BR>
>My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
>me to desist.<BR>
<BR>
	Quite the contrary, one vote here for continuing.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (you know what it means by now)<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Yep, back at work, and they still don't tell be _what_ to<BR>
think, so it' not their fault.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:25:16 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
>As<BR>
>everyone knows by now, the main problem with trying to predict the future of<BR>
>technology is that we tend to be too conservative and things come out of the<BR>
>proverbial left field at us.  Look at the SF from the 60's and 70's - the<BR>
>computers were all 'Big Iron'.  I've even seen lines like "...and the relays<BR>
>whirred and clicked..." - transistors were already in common use by that<BR>
>time.<BR>
<BR>
Not always.  After all, where is your flying car?<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:26:16 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
One should remember that we are talkinga about "likely" based on what we<BR>
can extrapolate from a single data point.....<BR>
<BR>
>shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> In mail you write:<BR>
>> > Now, on a world with a small, fast moon, this method might become<BR>
>>feasible.<BR>
>> >  Keep a table of moon rises and sets compared to sunrise/set, and figure<BR>
>> > from there. Still rough, but closer.<BR>
><BR>
>> Actually, small fast moons are a lot more likely than "big slow" ones<BR>
>> like we have.<BR>
><BR>
>Small fast moons are more likely on a planet than are big slow<BR>
>ones they are not, however, necessarily more likely on a habitable<BR>
>planet or at least on a planet with higher life.<BR>
><BR>
>There is evidence that the axial tilt of Mars has varied far<BR>
>more than the axial tilt of Earth. The moon helps keep the<BR>
>Earths axial tilt relatively constant. Huge sudden shifts<BR>
>in axial tilt (mar's axial tilt has varied between about 51%<BR>
>and about 9%, IIRC) are likely to cause severe damage to<BR>
>a bio system. Hence worlds with higher life forms may well<BR>
>be more likely to have big slow ones.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:31:15 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why<BR>
you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
<BR>
>At 08:00 AM 7/17/2000 +0300, you wrote:<BR>
>>I hate to say it this way  but, it really depends on your perspective.<BR>
>>A dead soldier only takes 2 people to take care of him.  A wounded<BR>
>>soldier takes about 20.  Also during a battle, a dead soldier is left,<BR>
>>while a wounded soldier is taken care of and defended.  The M-16 was<BR>
>>designed to wound and not to kill.  I am not taking a moral stand on<BR>
>>which is right, just pointing out something of interest.<BR>
><BR>
>No, No, NO!  That M-16 story is a myth, and an old one at that.<BR>
><BR>
>There is no truth at all to the story that the M-16 series assault rifle<BR>
>was designed to only wound enemy troops.  It was designed to provide<BR>
>American soldiers with a lighter, more effective weapon than the heavy M-14.<BR>
><BR>
>The caliber was changed from 7.62mm to 5.56mm to allow each soldioer to<BR>
>carry more ammo.  In practise, the 5.56x45mm proved to be extremely lethal,<BR>
>since it tended to deposit all of it's energy in the target, as oppossed to<BR>
>the larger rounds which punched through with nothing more that keyholing.<BR>
><BR>
>If you want to wound troops, use grenades.<BR>
>--<BR>
><BR>
>Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
>http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:43:06 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
<BR>
I find many of the posts on this list to be quite insulting and snide all the way round.  Most of the posts are off topic, which I skip and look for interesting items.  I<BR>
thought when I saw LKW on the list that this would be a good place in which to ask questions and get good answers.  I don't really see that.  As for peoples opions being<BR>
attacked - I see that quiet often.<BR>
<BR>
Can someone please point me to a list where I can get technical / striker questions answered?  And then I will unsubscribe from this list.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
  I hope I am mistaken, and that you will become a civilized member of this group.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<BR>
Tod, do you want to correct him, or shall I? :^)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:49:50 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tod Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
> OK, better a light wound than a severe one.  And troops are apt to fight<BR>
> more aggressively if they believe they have a better chance of survival.<BR>
<BR>
  thats true, but<BR>
 <BR>
> Wins all around.  <BR>
  <BR>
  to wound the oponent, is as bad to us if we win, as its good if we are<BR>
  on a guerilia war. If we are interested in a 'win', we should use<BR>
  deadly weapons, else we have the burden of the PoW'a. If we want to<BR>
  slow down an oponent we should wound them.<BR>
  <BR>
  Do not come me with woundes prisoners of war I would have enough to do<BR>
  with own wounded people - I know that my place in the next war would be<BR>
  in Mash unit as I've served 10 years in Katastrophenschutz Bereitschaft<BR>
  Bremen Nord and 6 of them as a officer.<BR>
<BR>
  Regardless of my age, they could still draft me to Mash service in terms<BR>
  of 'erweiterter Katastrophenfall'.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:49:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Errors<BR>
<BR>
> I still think the *classic* has to be the "correction" someone put into<BR>
> one edition of "The Mote in God's Eye". Larry Niven *personally*<BR>
> corrected the correction in my copy when he autographed it.<BR>
<BR>
Larry seems very touchy about this, and corrects every copy that passes<BR>
through his hands.  I had the same experience when I met him at NorWesCon.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:52:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Errors<BR>
<BR>
> The best I've seen is a brochure for a major insurance company that<BR>
> proudly proclaimed that they would insure you for death or injury whilst<BR>
> travelling in any cat. Bottom line is that while typesetters,<BR>
> proof readers,<BR>
> authors and editors strive for perfection; they are still only human. The<BR>
> original error (the one that sparked all this) sounds rather like<BR>
> two sheets<BR>
> fed during collating (could be caused by a bit of moisture on the<BR>
> sheets, a<BR>
> mechnanical error in the collating machine, or any one of a hundred other<BR>
> causes).<BR>
<BR>
I have a copy of "The Puzzle Palace", an expose of the NSA, that has a whole<BR>
chapter duplicated, and another missing.  I always wondered what was in the<BR>
missing chapter.  I like to think the NSA was responsible for its removal.<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:53:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: The Traveller Movie<BR>
<BR>
I've read just a few posts about the movie and have already<BR>
noted a wide range of potential directors and actors<BR>
mentioned.  That points to one of the great things about<BR>
Traveller.  Anyone can have a vision of what a Traveller<BR>
movie -- or a Traveller campaign -- can be, and can make it<BR>
work and can enjoy it and enjoy it with others.  Not<BR>
everybody will like everybody else's vision, but they don't<BR>
have to.  We all like what we like.<BR>
<BR>
No, I'm not going to mention my own choices.  I don't want<BR>
my potential players to have that much information before<BR>
we start.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:54:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Tod, do you want to correct him, or shall I? :^)<BR>
> <BR>
>         - Mark C.<BR>
<BR>
I posted my reply.  I love this bit of misinformation.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:59:24 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> >> Andrew etc.<BR>
> >>   Black Trenchcoat $35<BR>
> >>   Dark Sunglasses $5<BR>
> >>   Shotgun $100<BR>
> >>   The look on their faces... Priceless<BR>
> <BR>
> It's a parody of a series of commercials for one of the major credit<BR>
> cards here in the US.<BR>
<BR>
  its also running on Kraut TV - and it was a good lough for me.<BR>
<BR>
  But I know that people had been sued for 'commercials parodies'. <BR>
  e.g. Titanic (a weekly politics and satire mag) was sued for somethink<BR>
  like 'I drink leberkleister, because my mother does' with a baby and<BR>
  a women.<BR>
<BR>
  'commercials parody' should be more tasteless than the original!<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:11:34 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
><BR>
>the question of what the age of consent might be in various cultures<BR>
>in various TU's is a valid one and even on topic, <BR>
<BR>
...and can lead to interesting situations and conflicts in a game.  To<BR>
illustrate, in these parts the age of consent (for women) is 16;  it's<BR>
well ingrained in our culture and I can't really imagine any other<BR>
situation - the idea that a society would try and prevent 16-17 year<BR>
olds from having sexual relationships seems ludicrous.  However,<BR>
comments on the list clearly show that in other cultures, the idea<BR>
isn't strange at all.  <BR>
<BR>
Historical societies have gone to even greater extremes - ISTR the<BR>
Zulus once banned young men from marrying until their regiment had<BR>
proven itself in battle, which might put them in their late 20s...on<BR>
the other hand many cultures have simply set the effective "age of<BR>
consent" at puberty.<BR>
<BR>
In an environment like the 3I, each planet could have very different<BR>
laws on marriage:  taking into account not only the age of consent,<BR>
but also polygamy, same-sex marriage, and even inter-species marriage<BR>
(obviously, any such couple would have to adopt if they wanted kids...<BR>
Or cubs).  Imagine the happily married couple from planet X (where the<BR>
age of consent is 14), off to celebrate their fifth wedding<BR>
anniversary with an off-world holiday, only to discover than at their<BR>
destination the age of consent is 21 and they're liable to arrest for<BR>
child abuse if they share a hotel room...<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:20:23 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
> it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
> overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
> field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
> don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why<BR>
> you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
> so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
> the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
This is partially true, and partially false.  The large, pure lead ball of<BR>
the civil war were terribly destructive, particularly at the ranges fired.<BR>
But amputations were common, as much for the lack of antibiotics and other<BR>
'modern' techniques of wound care and reconstructive surgery.<BR>
<BR>
The M-16 is a direct result of military experience in the field from WWII<BR>
onwards, and was heavily influence by the army ALCLAD study, and the data<BR>
that came out of the Ballistics Research Lab (BRL) in the late 1950.  The<BR>
gist of this was that 90% of all rifle combat occurs at 300m or less (close<BR>
to zero at 500m), and that a small caliber high velocity projectile could be<BR>
as or more effective as a heavy .30 caliber projectile.  The Germans came to<BR>
the same conclusion in the 1920's, hence the STG44 in 7.92 Kurtz.<BR>
<BR>
The only reason the US retained the high powered 30-06 and 7.62x51 was do to<BR>
a few key individuals in the army ordnance department, most notably Col.<BR>
Rene Studler.  Col. Studler insisted that the US soldier needed the<BR>
capability to engage targets in excess of 1000 yards, despite all the actual<BR>
combat reports that contradicted him. Interestingly, during Vietnam, the<BR>
5.56x45 proved 11% more lethal than the 7.62x51mm.<BR>
<BR>
For an interesting read, I recommend two books: "The great rifle<BR>
controversy" and "The Black Rifle", both by Edward Ezell, IIRC (also check<BR>
under Blake Stevens).<BR>
<BR>
With extensive computer modeling and better analysis of combat actions, it<BR>
will be interesting to see how new firearms develop.  But the arms industry<BR>
is very conservative, so I doubt we'll see any radical changes.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 05:20:45 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
<BR>
* Longer term Adaptation (days+)<BR>
i. Microgravity<BR>
* Cardiovascular (and blood)<BR>
The increased upper body blood volume (+5-7% over standing 1g <BR>
'controls') leads to a modest increase in cardiac output.<BR>
Stretch on the atria of the heart leads to release of atrial naturetic<BR>
peptide and<BR>
diuresis (increased urine volume). This leads to a decrease in blood<BR>
volume of up to 10% within 24-48 hours, due to a fall in plasma<BR>
volume.<BR>
<BR>
The fall in circulating blood volume is limited by regulation by the <BR>
kidneys to around 15%. The total volume of red cells falls over a <BR>
period of 3-4 months, in response to the reduced oxygen demand as<BR>
a result of muscle atrophy.<BR>
<BR>
Cardiac muscle also atrophies as the work required of the heart falls.<BR>
Blood pressure falls, due to a decline in both cardiac output and<BR>
peripheral vascular resistance.<BR>
<BR>
No further change in these parameters appears to take place after 4<BR>
months of exposure.<BR>
<BR>
* Musculoskeletal<BR>
Muscle atrophies due to reduced load and reduced feedback from sensory<BR>
nerves in the joints and muscle spindles (length and force sensors).<BR>
Muscle cross-sectional area falls by up to 25% within 5 days, leading<BR>
to a proportionate decrease in strength.<BR>
Within a month, strength losses of 40% are common (studies of bed-bound<BR>
humans). There is a decrease in endurance as the fibres change from<BR>
the 'slow twitch' (aerobic) type to 'fast twitch' anaerobes.<BR>
There is no further decline in muscle strength.<BR>
<BR>
The rate of bone loss is 12-25 times that at one gravity (0.4-1%<BR>
loss in bone calcium per month regardless of age vs. 0.3-0.5% per year<BR>
after age 40-50). This loss is not uniform, and affects primarily<BR>
load-bearing bones :- the vertebrae and femurs, for example.<BR>
Unlike the cardiovascular and muscle changes, bone loss continues with<BR>
ongoing exposure to microgravity.<BR>
<BR>
Osteoporosis is defined as a fall in bone density 2.5 standard<BR>
deviations below the average young mean. After 12 months of exposure<BR>
to microgravity, the 'osteoporosis threshold' will be crossed given the<BR>
loss rates above. The risk of fracture is greatly increased.<BR>
<BR>
The calcium is excreted in the urine. Precipitation of insoluble<BR>
calcium salts can lead to kidney stones, and obstructive renal failure.<BR>
High levels of calcium in the plasma can lead to constipation,<BR>
abdominal pain, and delirium.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, the decreased load on the vertebral column leads to an<BR>
increase in intervertebral disc height. People get taller in<BR>
microgravity as a result.<BR>
<BR>
* Neurological<BR>
The primary problem is motion sickness due to the conflicting data<BR>
received by the visual, vestibular, and joint position sensing systems.<BR>
Onset is generally prompt, and is characterised by nausea, vertigo and<BR>
vomitting. It takes about 3-4 days for the vestibular system to pass<BR>
through this 'hypersensitive' phase. Resetting of threshold leads<BR>
to a transient 'hyposensitive' period lasting about a week.<BR>
<BR>
Motion sickness has an incidence of 50%. Risk factor data is sketchy.<BR>
Change in acceleration can lead to recurrence.<BR>
<BR>
* Respiratory<BR>
Ventilation (gas delivery) and perfusion (blood flow) are not equal<BR>
in the lung. The upper portions<BR>
are better ventilated ; the lower, better perfused due to hydraulic<BR>
effects. Microgravity reduces the level of inequality between lung<BR>
regions, but overall there is little change in lung performance.<BR>
<BR>
* Endocrine<BR>
Fluid retention mechanisms are inhibited, most notably the renin-<BR>
angiotensin-aldosterone axis and the secretion of vasopressin<BR>
(AKA antidiuretic hormone). Reduced levels of the adrenal steroid<BR>
aldosterone and vasopressin, with an increase in the stimulus threshold <BR>
required to release them, leads to a vulnerabilty to fluid depletion.<BR>
The reserve required to withstand insults like blood loss, acceleration<BR>
or infection is therefore decreased.<BR>
<BR>
* Immune<BR>
Cell-mediated immunity appears to be impaired by microgravity. The<BR>
mechanism is unclear. Paradoxically, some studies have shown an<BR>
improvement in humoral (antibody-mediated) immunity. The long-term<BR>
effects of decreased adrenal function in combination with this haven't<BR>
been investigated.<BR>
<BR>
* Reproductive and Developmental Biology<BR>
There's a lack of data about the effects of microgravity on fertility<BR>
and growth. Certainly plants need gravity to sense which way is up -<BR>
germination failure is more common. Animal fertility appears little<BR>
affected.<BR>
<BR>
Subsequent development hasn't been well studied. Periods of microgravity<BR>
appear to be well tolerated by young animals with no adverse effects on<BR>
the nervous, cardiovascular or musculoskeletal systems.<BR>
<BR>
ii. Hypergravity<BR>
Beyond 3g's, usual activity (walking around, etc.) is almost impossible<BR>
without special support. <BR>
<BR>
* Cardiovascular<BR>
The challenge is to maintain adequate cardiac output in the face of<BR>
the increased tendency to venous pooling and the increased metabolic<BR>
requirements of the muscles with loading.<BR>
Cardiac output and blood pressure increase.<BR>
Activation of fluid retention mechanisms will lead to ongoing volume<BR>
expansion ; effective volume returns to a 1g normal value within 12-72<BR>
hours, and ongoing expansion slowly occurs for one to two weeks<BR>
thereafter.<BR>
Red blood cell volume will increase over two weeks to a month, due<BR>
to an increase in bone marrow activity mediated by erythropoietin.<BR>
<BR>
Cardiac work is increased, and hypertrophy of the cardiac muscle is<BR>
inevitable. The muscle may outstrip the ability of the coronary <BR>
circulation to perfuse it, especially in the presence of<BR>
atherosclerosis.<BR>
Heart failure may occur without angina or infarction (muscle damage<BR>
from limitation of blood flow) due to the effects of high blood pressure<BR>
alone.<BR>
<BR>
Oedema - accumulation of fluid in the tissues due to high venous<BR>
pressures - is increasingly likely, as is the development of varicose<BR>
veins<BR>
and haemorrhoids, as +g increases.<BR>
<BR>
* Musculoskeletal<BR>
The increased load on bone and muscle is a potent cue to growth.<BR>
Within 8 weeks, strength increases by 30%. There is an associated<BR>
increase in muscle mass and both aerobic and anaerobic endurance.<BR>
The change in muscle endurance may be masked by fatigue caused by<BR>
continuous exertion.<BR>
<BR>
Bone mass and density increases under the increased load for up to three<BR>
months. Height decreases due to vertebral disk compression.<BR>
<BR>
* Respiratory<BR>
Collapse of small airways occurs more readily when upright. Mismatch<BR>
of ventilation and perfusion is increased due to hydrostatic effects.<BR>
The overall effect is a decline in functional capacity with increased<BR>
+g.<BR>
<BR>
* Endocrine<BR>
The increased levels of circulating adrenal hormones required to<BR>
maintain blood volume, vascular tone and cardiac output also cause<BR>
increased production of glucose. Diabetes is therefore more likely, with<BR>
its adverse effects on all systems.<BR>
<BR>
* Blood and immune<BR>
If blood sugar levels are chronically raised, immunosuppression ensues.<BR>
Mild impairment of immune function has been demonstrated with centrifuge<BR>
experiments on cell cultures.<BR>
<BR>
* Reproductive and Developmental Biology<BR>
Fertility is likely to be decreased. Pregnancy will be more risky due to<BR>
the increased cardiovascular stress, especially during labour.<BR>
<BR>
Growth velocity of children (height/weight with time) is likely to be<BR>
slower due to the stress imposed by the environment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:27:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
<BR>
[extremely useful discourse deleted]<BR>
<BR>
>My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me<BR>
>if you want me to desist.<BR>
<BR>
Are you crazy?  Even when I don't read it right away (which<BR>
is usually), I always copy your medical stuff for use in my<BR>
own games.  Don't ever desist.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:33:20 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:57 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> One of my own thoughts was for a 20-25mm grenade launcher capable of firing<BR>
> either a time-fused HE round or a canister load of SCMITR flechettes.  Have<BR>
> it fire from an open bolt, with dual magazines.  A smart range-finding sight<BR>
> selects either flechette or HE based on range (flechette for 150m or less,<BR>
> with a user over-ride).  Get rid of the conventional rifle all together.<BR>
> <BR>
This got me thinking, and I tried making something up with 3G3 and GURPS:Vehicles 2 ed.<BR>
<BR>
This first one is made with GURPS:Vehicles 2 ed. It's not perfect, mainly because it hasn't rules for SCMITR. I used the beehive stats as an approximation. As I couldn't find any electro-optical rangefinders I put a laser one instead. To reduce mass and still have high rof I made it manual repeater and used plastic cased ammo. The weapon should be easier to handle with recoil reduction (rcl -3, ST 13, 360 $). Total lenght 140 cm. KE damage is 4d+1.<BR>
<BR>
(GTL 8 23 mm conventional extra-low powered medium barrel smoothbore manual repeater with shoulder stock.)<BR>
<BR>
NIAD 23 mm Assault Grenade Launcher<BR>
Malf Crit.<BR>
Type (HE) exp. / (Flechette) imp.<BR>
Damage 2d+1 [2d] / 2d <BR>
SS 14<BR>
Acc 8<BR>
1/2D 220 / 22<BR>
Max 1400 / 140<BR>
Weight 12,6<BR>
RoF 3~<BR>
Shots 2x10<BR>
ST 15<BR>
Rcl -4<BR>
Cost 910 $<BR>
LC 1<BR>
Hld -6<BR>
TL 8<BR>
WPS 0,069<BR>
CPS 0,84 $ / 1,68 $<BR>
<BR>
This second was made with 3G3. Still no rules for SCMITR or electro-optical rangefinders. In the spirit of the G:V version I used disposable casings on this one. To keep the high rof I used semi-auto receiver. The fragmenting HE round has 40 8 mm fragments. The flechette round has 17 4,5 mm flechettes. KE damage is 5d-1.<BR>
<BR>
COFUCA 23 mm Assault Grenade Launcher<BR>
Malf Crit.<BR>
Type (HE) exp. / (Flechette) imp.<BR>
Damage 2d+1 [2d+1] / 17 x 3d-1 or 18d-6  <BR>
SS 12<BR>
Acc 9<BR>
1/2D 220 / 876<BR>
Max 5950<BR>
Weight 13,1<BR>
RoF 3~<BR>
Shots 2x10<BR>
ST 15<BR>
Rcl -4<BR>
Cost 453 $<BR>
LC 1<BR>
Hld -5<BR>
TL 8<BR>
WPS 0,025 / 0,84<BR>
CPS 1,24 $ / 0,42 $<BR>
<BR>
And stats for 3G3 <BR>
<BR>
COFUCA 23 mm Assault Grenade Launcher<BR>
Cal. 23mm<BR>
RC (HE) 3/2, (Fl.) 3/4<BR>
DV (KE) 42, (HE) 22, (Fr.) 21, (Fl.) 25<BR>
IA 2<BR>
Mass 5,94 kg<BR>
Bulk VS/7<BR>
TL 12<BR>
Cost 453 cr.<BR>
Clip 2x10<BR>
Action SA/E<BR>
ROF 4<BR>
H 2<BR>
Cl. Mass 656 g / 2220 g<BR>
AV 10<BR>
BP 11<BR>
Rel. I<BR>
<BR>
On the 3G3 version ammo weight came up to almost half of the weapon, most of this being the flechettes. Using smaller rounds this might be corrected, although at the loss of damage potential. <BR>
<BR>
Comments? Suggestions?<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:30:12 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Tasteless sigs<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> > I still think with a history of school shootings it's still a bit<BR>
> > tasteless..<BR>
> <BR>
> I hadn't thought of those, my first thought was an armed robbery.<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
I first saw it on alt.tasteless a week or so after the Columbine<BR>
shootings.  The connection seems fairly strong to me.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:34:01 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
>Mistakes, goofs, and errors creep in despite our best<BR>
>efforts. Ya try to catch them before it goes to print, but<BR>
>sometimes that doesn't happen.<BR>
<BR>
That was one of the special pleasures of law review --<BR>
catching each other's (and everyone else's) writing errors.<BR>
 Publishing is extremely difficult to do perfectly, but<BR>
trying to do so is sublime.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2774</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2774<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity <BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
two Striker questions<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity <BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Telling Longitude by Lunar Obs.<BR>
Posting on-topic stuff.<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
RE: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:38:39 GMT<BR>
From: newbomb@home.com (The Right Reverend Newbomb Turk)<BR>
Subject: Re: Anthony Jackson's map of known space<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:15:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>John Wood writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>         http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Sectors/Windhorn.html<BR>
>> <BR>
>> If anybody wants to take it further, feel free. Anthony, if you want to<BR>
>> try generating trade info from it we might be able to see how well<BR>
>> completely random generation fits with surrounding sectors...<BR>
><BR>
>Not like surrounding sectors aren't completely random.  It forced me to find a better version of Meshan sector, but once I did that the map looks fine.<BR>
<BR>
Hmm....anyone have a decent list of what sectors are completed and<BR>
ready to install?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:39:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity <BR>
<BR>
<From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
<BR>
>Very nice, as usual! Someone should collect all of Roberts<BR>
>medico stuff into a single volume...something like "the<BR>
>Ship's Doctor's Manual' This is good stuff.<BR>
<BR>
How about 101 Medical Situations and Treatments?  The book<BR>
could even be a diagnostic guide, kind of like a field<BR>
guide to the flowers.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:03:32 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
Moin Kurt Feltenberger,<BR>
<BR>
> I'm planning to start a Traveller variant campaign using Battlestar <BR>
> Galactica as the theme.  I snooped around battlestargalactica.com, and <BR>
> while they had some stellar artwork, they didn't have what I <BR>
> need.  Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction to find the <BR>
> following:<BR>
<BR>
  fine - to make it Travellerish :<BR>
<BR>
  The Galactica should be an 100 year old VS-13 to VS-15 of 100kdt size.<BR>
  Crew is around 3000 people ( e.g. for VS-13 2 bridge, 99 engineering,<BR>
  22 maintenance, 129 gunner, 129 flight, 250 comanding officers,<BR>
  61 stewards, 15 medics - plus 1230 people for 600 30dt fighters<BR>
  and 10 100dt shuttles ) - The Galactica story fits perfectly into<BR>
  Sylean core around 1200 imperial.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:00:59 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: two Striker questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
>Subject: Striker - Point Defense Tables<BR>
>Where are the values for point defense weapons?  Do you<BR>
>use the direct fire tables?<BR>
>Kaz------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:37:36 +0300<BR>
>From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
>Subject: Striker Design Question - Autofire Bonus<BR>
>Does a MRL launcher get a autofire bonus?  Also, what is<BR>
>the number of targets?<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall the answers, but I do recall the questions<BR>
from the days of doing Striker designs.  I don't have my<BR>
copies of Striker with me today.  I'm really not much help<BR>
at all; sorry.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, if you'd like to have your designs play-tested by<BR>
the San Jose group, please email them to me.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:15:57 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
Moin Tod Glenn,<BR>
<BR>
> Larry seems very touchy about this, and corrects every copy that passes<BR>
> through his hands.  I had the same experience when I met him at NorWesCon.<BR>
<BR>
  I received two copies of the MT Refrees Companion, together with some<BR>
  other GDW stuff some years ago, when ordered one. The second has a big<BR>
  'text' written with an edding on the right top of the cover page. Inside<BR>
  it has some dozen marks, perhaps for correction. <BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael <BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:11:24 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
<BR>
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
>Subject: RE:  Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
>it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
>overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
>field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
>don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why<BR>
>you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
>so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
>the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
<BR>
	The doctors in the civil war did the only thing they could given the<BR>
tremendous numbers of wounded and the relatively limited medical technology<BR>
and resources they had available.  I have a left thumb today because of<BR>
nifty things like antibiotics and x-rays, but also to the fact that there<BR>
were not 200 more guys waiting in the hall who were even worse off than I.<BR>
If it had been hit by a minnie ball, the damage would not have been much<BR>
worse than when the drill press had finished with it (it was not a clean<BR>
punch, but rather a yank-and-crush with a spade bit).  For this, I am quite<BR>
thankful, because I happen to NEED that thumb to support the neck of my<BR>
violin and to pluck the top note of a chord on the harp.<BR>
	Besides, when a small, high-velocity projectile hits a bone, the bone<BR>
shatters, sending fragments tearing through the surrounding tissue.  The<BR>
results are just as messy as with a slow, .50 cal+ slug.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (you know what it means)<BR>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They pay me to think, but they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:08:15 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
They were amongst the worst ever written. To run the<BR>
games I used to port over CoC mechanics which worked<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 9:59 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 02:20 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
> >but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
> >dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
> <BR>
> 2300AD suffered from FASA Syndrome: Great setting, so-so rules.<BR>
> <BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:09:56 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
I'm from London.<BR>
<BR>
And before you say it, I'm no Francophile but<BR>
then I'm not allergic to them either.<BR>
<BR>
I just felt that it made it more interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Nick Bradbeer <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 2:28 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
> > but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
> > dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
> <BR>
> You English, sir?<BR>
> <BR>
> Nick<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:13:25 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
>   fine - to make it Travellerish :<BR>
> <BR>
>   The Galactica should be an 100 year old VS-13 to VS-15 of 100kdt size.<BR>
>   Crew is around 3000 people ( e.g. for VS-13 2 bridge, 99 engineering,<BR>
>   22 maintenance, 129 gunner, 129 flight, 250 comanding officers,<BR>
>   61 stewards, 15 medics - plus 1230 people for 600 30dt fighters<BR>
>   and 10 100dt shuttles ) - The Galactica story fits perfectly into<BR>
>   Sylean core around 1200 imperial.<BR>
<BR>
There are indications that the Battlestars are *considerably* older than 100<BR>
years.<BR>
<BR>
Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:15:34 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity <BR>
<BR>
> >Very nice, as usual! Someone should collect all of Roberts<BR>
> >medico stuff into a single volume...something like "the<BR>
> >Ship's Doctor's Manual' This is good stuff.<BR>
><BR>
> How about 101 Medical Situations and Treatments?  The book<BR>
> could even be a diagnostic guide, kind of like a field<BR>
> guide to the flowers.<BR>
><BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
If we could persuade Robert to do this, I for one, would buy it.  There is<BR>
typical a lot of material for weapons with most RPGs, but not much on the<BR>
other side (medical).  I find that addressing these aspects add a lot to<BR>
character's 'life'.  IMTU, we have characters who brag how many limbs they<BR>
have had regrown, and some characters have developed a tolerance for high<BR>
tech healing agents from repeated use.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:40:15 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> * Longer term Adaptation (days+)<BR>
> i. Microgravity<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> * Musculoskeletal<BR>
> Muscle atrophies due to reduced load and reduced feedback from sensory<BR>
> nerves in the joints and muscle spindles (length and force sensors).<BR>
> Muscle cross-sectional area falls by up to 25% within 5 days, leading<BR>
> to a proportionate decrease in strength.<BR>
> Within a month, strength losses of 40% are common (studies of bed-bound<BR>
> humans). <BR>
<BR>
How much of this, I wonder is due to the a) the underlying physiological<BR>
condition that made them bedbound in the first place, and b) the<BR>
enforced incativity. <BR>
<BR>
People _living_ in microgravitic environments are not physically<BR>
inactive, as moving yourself and tools around requires a fairamount of<BR>
exertion. (remember only your weight, and not your mass are decreased)<BR>
<BR>
How does this jibe with studies of, say, Mir cosmonauts? I do know they<BR>
are usually carried off upon landing, but I remember Shannon Tweed<BR>
making a point of walking off unaided ;-) Then again, it may be the<BR>
difference between landing in the space Shuttle and landing in a Salyut<BR>
(reputed to be pretty rough)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:37:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Forget feet, the M-16A1 "Bouncing Betty" will wound everyone in a fairly<BR>
> large radius, requiring immediate evacuation.  The poor sap who triggered<BR>
> it will be toast, just about everybody within 5 meters will catch a pellet<BR>
> or twelve.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I just got a copy of ORDAT II (International Determiners' guide to UXO<BR>
identification, recovery and disposal), a nifty little CD that detail just<BR>
about every mine, grenade and other explosive ordnance you'd ever be likely<BR>
to encounter.  I see an entry for the M-16A1, which I remember from my army<BR>
time, as well as the M16 and M16A2.  Not sure about the difference though.<BR>
Very nasty.<BR>
<BR>
For a single attack, particularly against BD, the M25 looks useful.  From<BR>
ORDAT II:<BR>
<BR>
The M25 is an antipersonnel blast/shape-charge mine that was produced by the<BR>
United States. The mine is OD green or sand beige. This mine is a copy of<BR>
the Canadian C3A1, or ELSIE, antipersonnel mine.  The mines pointed end is<BR>
pushed into the ground so as only to expose the top portion of the mine.<BR>
The shipping plug is removed and the charge  assembly with safety clip is<BR>
inserted into mine the body assembly.  Once emplaced into the ground, the<BR>
safety collar of the mine is removed to arm the mine.  Mine will actuate<BR>
when 7-12 kg force is applied.  Upon activation, an explosive charge will<BR>
detonate sending an explosively formed penetrator upward. The mine case is<BR>
plastic.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone interested in ORDATA II, I don't know if it's available to the<BR>
general public, but you can write:<BR>
<BR>
Naval EOD Technology Division<BR>
2008 Stump Neck Rd.<BR>
Indian Head, MD 20640-5070<BR>
USA<BR>
<BR>
The application is for win95/98 and may work on NT.<BR>
<BR>
(looking for info? Just email me for data.  I'm thinking about building a<BR>
bunch of entries for the Mercenaries Guide<BR>
(http://weapons.travellercentral.com)as soon as I get a better feel for T4<BR>
weaponry (converting from CT).<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:37:27 +0100<BR>
From: Mark S Peace <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
I must say one or two of the replies have been far more offensive than<BR>
the original post ever was.<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> > I am sorry for coming across in such an offending manner. But my point is<BR>
> <BR>
> Are you apologizing for *being* offensive or merely for being taken as<BR>
> offensive. My reading of your words is the latter, which makes your<BR>
> "apology" not much of one.<BR>
> <BR>
> On a side note, your formatting makes it very difficult to read your note.<BR>
> You present us with an extensive chunk of text formatted as a single<BR>
> paragraph. I'm not willing to make the non-trivial effort of trying to<BR>
> impute paragraph breaks where they ought to be.<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't that long and at least it was written in good enough English. <BR>
It beats html.  This looks like a complaint for the sake of it.<BR>
<BR>
> you make any more substantive posts. The impression you leave with me<BR>
> is one of rudeness and selfishness.<BR>
<BR>
I could say the same about you, but I won't.  It's far too easy to be<BR>
offensive when you haven't actually got to face the person.<BR>
<BR>
The big problem with some of the traveller misprints is that it made<BR>
some of the rules completely useless.  If you don't have the correct<BR>
numbers in a starship design system then you might as well not bother<BR>
using it at all.  It isn't easy to figure out how to correct these sorts<BR>
of errors either.<BR>
<BR>
Mark.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:38:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Telling Longitude by Lunar Obs.<BR>
<BR>
So, I've been thinking about it for a while, but I can't get my head<BR>
wrapped around how one would tell longitude by observing the moon or moons<BR>
of a world. Anyone know how this is done?  If so, please explain.<BR>
<BR>
The basic longitude problem as I see it is that the position of any<BR>
celestial body "longitudinally" is the result of two confounded variables:<BR>
Longitude and time.  That is, the constellation Marava might be directly<BR>
above your head because you are on the Newport Down Meridian and it is<BR>
midnight or because you are at the Mountain of Dreams and it is 5 a.m. <BR>
(<--from Tarsus boxed set, not actual figures!).  If you have a good<BR>
clock, you can determine longitude with that, but if you don't...well<BR>
apparently there's some trick by which you can do it by observing the<BR>
moon...er, I mean Gloeh and Frond (right?).  <BR>
<BR>
If anyone can explain this to me, that would be quite cool.  I've got<BR>
images of primitive mariners with amazing math skills and big ancient<BR>
chart books (updated occasionally because of precession) doint amazing<BR>
feats of navigation on worlds with seven moons...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:42:17 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Posting on-topic stuff.<BR>
<BR>
> > My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
> > me to desist.<BR>
> Heck...you're posting on-topic, useful information! What a horrible<BR>
> waste of bandwidth!!! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm, I suspect Mr. O'Connor might have been trying at a little sarcasm,<BR>
but maybe not.  Certainly if _I_ had said it, it would have been dripping<BR>
with sarcasm, given the recent quality of TML digests...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:34:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
From: Ben Aaronovitch <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I really liked 2300 and would like a GURPs revamp<BR>
>but I liked it for the cultural aspects (French as top<BR>
>dogs etc) rather than the tech.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    The Cultural Aspects were great in 2300.  My loved the fact that they<BR>
could beat up the French because they were the top dogs.  *weg*<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:36:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What If: *Real* Darrian Supremacy<BR>
<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
<BR>
>"These aren't the droids you're looking for..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    "You will be able to accept these republic credits."<BR>
    "What, you think you are a Jedi, waving your hands around like that."<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:17:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
> I'm from London.<BR>
> <BR>
> And before you say it, I'm no Francophile but<BR>
> then I'm not allergic to them either.<BR>
> <BR>
> I just felt that it made it more interesting.<BR>
<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:21:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
From: Ben Aaronovitch <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I'm from London.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Makes sense, doesn't it?  *weg*  Btw, you still working for the BBC?<BR>
<BR>
>And before you say it, I'm no Francophile but<BR>
>then I'm not allergic to them either.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Then, you sir must have a weak sense of smell.<BR>
<BR>
>I just felt that it made it more interesting.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts & maybe<BR>
colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the Earth.  I am<BR>
sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It is a<BR>
given.<BR>
    Also considering that 2300 AD is set 300 years, IIRC, after Twilight<BR>
2000, France would too messed up to become a world power.<BR>
<BR>
>Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:18:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
<BR>
> > One of my own thoughts was for a 20-25mm grenade launcher<BR>
> capable of firing<BR>
> > either a time-fused HE round or a canister load of SCMITR<BR>
> flechettes.  Have<BR>
> > it fire from an open bolt, with dual magazines.  A smart<BR>
> range-finding sight<BR>
> > selects either flechette or HE based on range (flechette for<BR>
> 150m or less,<BR>
> > with a user over-ride).  Get rid of the conventional rifle all together.<BR>
> ><BR>
> This got me thinking, and I tried making something up with 3G3<BR>
> and GURPS:Vehicles 2 ed.<BR>
><BR>
[snip: lots of cool design data]<BR>
<BR>
> On the 3G3 version ammo weight came up to almost half of the<BR>
> weapon, most of this being the flechettes. Using smaller rounds<BR>
> this might be corrected, although at the loss of damage potential.<BR>
><BR>
> Comments? Suggestions?<BR>
><BR>
> -J2K<BR>
<BR>
I can get the weights for 23mm flechette loads (and HE) to see how they play<BR>
out.  I sketched out a weapon based loosely on the DeWinter Swatriplex<BR>
shotgun, which has 2 tubular magazines under a single barrel an a bulpup<BR>
configuration.  Scale the weapon up, and make the magazines disposable.<BR>
Semi-auto fire should be adequate, since you'll be launching maybe 18 SCMITR<BR>
flechettes per round<BR>
(see http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/scmitr.gif for a picture of<BR>
SCMITR).  BTW, I doubt you'll find any RPG reference to SCMITR, as the<BR>
round, though fully developed, has never been put into production and is<BR>
relatively obscure. Not sure how to assign damage.<BR>
<BR>
The US M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade runs around 250g and is 40x82mm, so<BR>
extrapolating for a 23x60mm projectile, we get a projectile mass of around<BR>
240g.  Lot much loss.<BR>
<BR>
I have 3G3 on order (with spread sheets), so I'll see how things match up.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:30:17 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
Kiri replyed<BR>
<BR>
> >><BR>
> I agree that it's never a good idea to try and convert people to your way of<BR>
> thinking.  I can't stand evangelism on any subject.  Nonetheless, continuing<BR>
> to state your opinion after someone dissents from it is not necessarily an<BR>
> attempt to convert the dissenter.  Sometimes, for whatever reason, one just<BR>
> has to say "Yes, I know you don't like this discussion, but there are<BR>
> reasons to have it, these are the reasons, we're having it, and if you don't<BR>
> want to participate in it, you don't have to."<BR>
> <BR>
> There are many subjects that are discussed on this and other mailing lists<BR>
> that make me uncomfortable.  But I don't ask people not to talk about them.<BR>
> As long as people are not being rudely sarcastic/nasty/mean-spirited, using<BR>
> really foul or super-explicit sexual language, or making personal attacks, I<BR>
> generally think most discussions are okay.  If people had been using<BR>
> four-letter words or explicitly describing various sexual acts I would have<BR>
> understood the objections better.   If there were any posts like that, I<BR>
> didn't see them.<BR>
> <BR>
> There are lots of things that come in on my TV that are offensive to me.<BR>
> When I see them I change the channel.  A lot of offensive email comes into<BR>
> my box.  I delete it.  I get genuinely pornographic email all the time<BR>
> because there are a couple of erotic websites I visit; some of it is gross.<BR>
> But I know if I respond to the sender I will just have confirmed that this<BR>
> email address exists and they will send me more.<BR>
> <BR>
> I occasionally get Christian spam.  I know if I complain to the sender they<BR>
> will try to convert me, so I delete that too even though as a Buddhist with<BR>
> Shinto tendencies I find it really annoying.  Generally if you respond to<BR>
> something you find offensive you will end up continuing the discussion<BR>
> rather than ending it.  If the person feels they have a legitimate right to<BR>
> express their views on whatever they may get indignant and at the very least<BR>
> you have lent energy to the situation.<BR>
> <BR>
> Just my 2.5 yen<BR>
> Kiri<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
I think the big problem some people (I) had with this subject is that I <BR>
truly feel right in being offended by under age (18 as per most Western <BR>
Culture) children and sex.  Secondly,  Kiri, your tone just about said that <BR>
I am a fool and closed mineded for being offended by the idea because <BR>
others like your friends in a different culture practice it. Like all people we <BR>
hate being called fools especially for what we believe, I am sure you feel <BR>
the same way.<BR>
<BR>
You are also right that if you find something that offends you it should <BR>
just be deleted or not readed. However, it would be nice if you never got <BR>
it in the first place.  In order for this to happen the person posting should <BR>
consider topic and tone of a post. This is the responsibility of free <BR>
speech!  If done right then Right-thinking and offensive topics can be <BR>
avoided.  <BR>
<BR>
Obv Traveller/Social Questions<BR>
<BR>
How do cultures transfer their beliefs or develop new ones?<BR>
<BR>
Human <BR>
Have there been a vast new wave of vegetarianism on the K`kree border? <BR>
 How many psionic users in the Imperium have fled to the Zho's or now <BR>
live on worlds closer the board? Have humans base any mercenary <BR>
units on Aslan or Vargr tactics <BR>
<BR>
Aslan<BR>
Is there homosexuality/transsexuality in this race.  On the IRC we argued <BR>
this in reference to body/sex changes. We concluded that probably not; <BR>
since they have a clear and well define sex roles where as humans dont.<BR>
<BR>
Vargr<BR>
<BR>
Are there settled bans nearer the Imperium. But picture the Vikings of <BR>
Northern France that became Normans, and by the mid 11th and 12 <BR>
centuries a civilizing force.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
OK thats it for me.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:37:31 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
Moin Zane,<BR>
<BR>
> There are indications that the Battlestars are *considerably* older than 100<BR>
> years.<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
<BR>
  So the Galactica is only a VP-15, a so called 'Provencial Carrier'.<BR>
 <BR>
  This is fine, so any bigger core vampire can eat you at breakfast.<BR>
<BR>
  Crew is around 1000 people size around 30kdt. And if you have problems<BR>
  with age, play 1300 imperial in the solomany rim.<BR>
<BR>
  The 'canon' TNE story could be :<BR>
<BR>
  The ship was 60 parsec corewards Sylea on a orbital dock when virus<BR>
  arived. After years of repairs, it worked again. Now the main vessel<BR>
  of a small PE between 1150-1170. Then Utevogh came, Vargrs controled<BR>
  by a Puppetier, fleeing the wave. Knowing about a bigger problem than<BR>
  virus coming from corewards, the Galactica deceided to move rimwards<BR>
  fighting through the core of sylea in the late 90th. During those fights<BR>
  a puppetier deceided to hunt this ship and its crews. So they flew from<BR>
  core and their fighting puppetier alliances farer rimward, but this one<BR>
  puppetier is still behind them, even if they are now some 100 parsec<BR>
  rimward of Sol.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2774<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2775<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
The Value of Errors<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Striker Questions was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Errors<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
Re:  Longitude<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Striker questions<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2774<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:30:08 -0400<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: The Value of Errors<BR>
<BR>
>Well I just got my copy of this volume also and it didn't contain this<BR>
>misprint. So I'd have to say that Eris is the lucky recipient of a rare<BR>
>(and soon to be valuable on e-bay) collectible.<BR>
<BR>
As a caveat, I would like to point out that collecting errors is a vastly<BR>
overrated segment of the hobby and that this particular error might actually<BR>
devalue the book. Whether you're collecting coins, trading cards, comics or<BR>
roleplaying books errors will creep in. While errors make a collectable<BR>
rarer, they don't always make that same collectable more valuable. One of<BR>
the first mistakes most people make about collecting is to fall into the<BR>
mindset that their hobby is based on "rarity". It's not. It's based on<BR>
demand.<BR>
<BR>
If there's a demand for a particular type of error, then the value will<BR>
shoot up. If there's a serious demand for a specific item by collectors,<BR>
then the value of versions of that item with errors will increase somewhat,<BR>
as it's a rarer version of something that's already in demand. In both<BR>
cases, the value may, and frequently does, drop down just as quickly as it<BR>
shoots up. In the first case, heightened publicity surrounding a specific<BR>
error is usually the catalyst for an increase in value. In the second case,<BR>
you're dealing with people who already know what they want in the hobby, and<BR>
the value may fall because they just don't want that particular item with<BR>
that error.<BR>
<BR>
Another factor is the state of the market. Neophyte collectors, before they<BR>
find their own niche in the hobby, usually start out by believing that an<BR>
object's rarity is the most important factor in determining that object's<BR>
value. There was a huge interest in error collecting in the sports card<BR>
hobby in the first half of the 1990s. That's because in the first half of<BR>
the 1990s there was a renewed interest in sports card collecting. Lots of<BR>
neophyte collectors were vying for certain rare, but well-publicized, error<BR>
cards. Collectors tried to get their hands on them, stores bought them. A<BR>
couple years later, everybody found out that nobody wanted them. A number of<BR>
those error cards are now practically worthless. Some of the more amusing<BR>
errors have retained some value since then, but they're now much more<BR>
reasonable. Most of the well-publicized typographical errors of the 90s are<BR>
practically valueless now.<BR>
<BR>
As it turned out, nobody wanted to *buy* a Cal Ripken card with no stats on<BR>
the back for $200. They simply thought that such errors would be worth a lot<BR>
if they happened to come across them in a pack of cards. If nobody wants to<BR>
buy them, then such cards are utterly and completely worthless. Lots of<BR>
card, coin and comic collectors have boxes of flawed objects, and they<BR>
usually sell them cheaply. In the coin industry, certain types of errors<BR>
have been popular for decades, while other types of errors mean nothing.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying that Eris' flawed copy will never go up in value, I just<BR>
wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the value to jump up. If I acquired such<BR>
a copy I would simply send it back to get a replacement. I haven't seen a<BR>
strong trend toward error collecting in the role-playing game collectors<BR>
market. I honestly don't think that there will be, unless some event<BR>
suddenly increases  the profile of that tiny corner of the hobby. In fact,<BR>
right now there are more role-playing books on the market then there is<BR>
demand for them. You will certainly get some money for certain rare and<BR>
sought after books. The most valuable right now are certain TSR products,<BR>
and certain 3rd party supplements for D&D (such as the early "Wee Warriors"<BR>
modules). DGP continues to put up a good showing, and although I haven't<BR>
come across many of them, I suspect that a number of 3rd party Trav<BR>
supplements have considerable value, simply because I haven't come across<BR>
many of them.<BR>
<BR>
Finally, role-playing collectors just don't seem to be interested in most<BR>
errors. The only really valuable "error" there is out there is the version<BR>
of "B3 - Palace of the Silver Princess" with the orange cover. It was<BR>
controversial, it was a very poor module, it has what many people claim to<BR>
be an extremely unflattering portrait of Gary Gygax and it was recalled<BR>
(even, as legend has it, from the workers' cubicles at TSR). Needless to<BR>
say, with such a combination it's one of the most valuable role-playing game<BR>
books out there right now (although the prices will probably drop since<BR>
there was a release of a free PDF version on the Wizards of the Coast<BR>
website).<BR>
<BR>
[Take all of this with a grain of salt if you like, my father has been an<BR>
avid coin and card collector for years. I collected comics for many years,<BR>
and have collected role-playing books supplements since the days before the<BR>
internet.]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:43:55 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>  to wound the oponent, is as bad to us if we win, as its good if we are<BR>
>  on a guerilia war. If we are interested in a 'win', we should use<BR>
>  deadly weapons, else we have the burden of the PoW'a. If we want to<BR>
>  slow down an oponent we should wound them.<BR>
<BR>
I suspect that, in the middle of a battle, the main idea is<BR>
simply to stop him from attacking you at the moment.  In<BR>
that case you don't worry that much about whether you wound<BR>
him or kill him.<BR>
<BR>
More long term, sure wounding someone takes resources, but then<BR>
he heals up and he is back in the battle.  Is the resources used<BR>
more than it takes to train a whole new guy?  (Now maiming is<BR>
as good as killing, but then I think the difference between<BR>
killing is in the location of the shot, not the weapon)<BR>
Also, a country that really needs to win will scrimp on medics<BR>
(taking those that will survive on limited medical care) rather<BR>
than use enough resources to seriously hamper the war effort.<BR>
A country that is more "picky" may be unwilling to suffer the<BR>
higher casualty rate, but then they are also not going to be<BR>
fully mobilized and may have a different pool of resources to<BR>
draw from (using women for medial care, or perhaps the population<BR>
is willing to put up with a limited number of soldier in combat<BR>
but has no problem with more people being used to treat soldiers).<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:45:54 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
At 11:20 AM -0800 7/17/0, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
>> My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
>> it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
>> overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
>> field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
>> don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why<BR>
>> you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
>> so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
>> the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>This is partially true, and partially false.  The large, pure lead ball of<BR>
>the civil war were terribly destructive, particularly at the ranges fired.<BR>
>But amputations were common, as much for the lack of antibiotics and other<BR>
>'modern' techniques of wound care and reconstructive surgery.<BR>
<BR>
Hence my phrasing "one reason why".  There was an excelent PBS special<BR>
about the Civil War that talked about what a Minie (sp?) Ball would do<BR>
to a limb.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 22:40:46 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Striker Questions was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
<BR>
At 15:34 -0400 17/7/00, kjkazinski@ksaits.com wrote:<BR>
>Can someone please point me to a list where I can get technical / <BR>
>striker questions answered?  And then I will unsubscribe from this <BR>
>list.<BR>
<BR>
You would get more of a response on Striker from the CT -Starships <BR>
list at eGroups.<BR>
<BR>
ct-starships-subscribe@egroups.com<BR>
<BR>
Is the subscription email IIRC.<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:49:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I think the big problem some people (I) had with this subject is that I <BR>
> truly feel right in being offended by under age (18 as per most Western <BR>
> Culture) children and sex.  Secondly,  Kiri, your tone just about said that <BR>
> I am a fool and closed mineded for being offended by the idea because <BR>
> others like your friends in a different culture practice it. Like all people we <BR>
> hate being called fools especially for what we believe, I am sure you feel <BR>
> the same way.<BR>
> <BR>
I didn't call you a fool, you read in a "tone" which is part of the<BR>
problem with email.  I also didn't say what my friends practiced-- I said<BR>
that people in other cultures would be amused by the prevailing Western<BR>
attitude that morality is the same everywhere.  Most non-Western folks<BR>
don't believe this.  It is kind of silly to believe that people everywhere<BR>
would have the same attitude about something, and of course you think you<BR>
are Right, but so do all the people you're disagreeing with.<BR>
<BR>
> You are also right that if you find something that offends you it should <BR>
> just be deleted or not read. However, it would be nice if you never got <BR>
> it in the first place.  <BR>
<BR>
LOL! I sure agree, it would be nice if people never attempted to convert<BR>
me to believing in their lord and savior, it would be nice if I never had<BR>
to see anything on TV that carried the explicit or implicit message that<BR>
white people are better than everyone else, it would be nice if people<BR>
didn't ask me to donate money to causes I think are stupid, but you know<BR>
what, I am not the dictator of the earth... and almost all the people who<BR>
annoy me are just as sure they are Right as you are sure that you are<BR>
Right and I am sure that I am Right, insofar as I believe that Right<BR>
exists at all (only on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is full...)<BR>
<BR>
So when we chuck the first amendment who gets to be Imperial Censor, Tim,<BR>
me or you?<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:53:51 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2773<BR>
<BR>
>	The doctors in the civil war did the only thing they could given the<BR>
>tremendous numbers of wounded and the relatively limited medical technology<BR>
>and resources they had available.<BR>
<BR>
It is indeed true that lack of medical care was a big part<BR>
of it.  That is why I mentioned the type of weapon was "one<BR>
of the factors".<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:07:29 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:39 PM 7/16/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Doug? I think you neeed to have a shugili check whatever it is you are<BR>
>>eating or drinking.<BR>
><BR>
> Just having a can of Kaakaagaa Kaaka.<BR>
<BR>
Ah! That explains it. You're supposed to serve that with fried tuber<BR>
slices. The toxins neutralize each other...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:55:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Errors<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> I still think the *classic* has to be the "correction" someone put into<BR>
>> one edition of "The Mote in God's Eye". Larry Niven *personally*<BR>
>> corrected the correction in my copy when he autographed it.<BR>
><BR>
> Larry seems very touchy about this, and corrects every copy that passes<BR>
> through his hands.  I had the same experience when I met him at NorWesCon.<BR>
<BR>
Well, given the *huge* difference it makes, I can't blame him. It's an<BR>
important bit of "stage setting". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:28:07 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote<BR>
<BR>
> >   fine - to make it Travellerish :<BR>
> > <BR>
> >   The Galactica should be an 100 year old VS-13 to VS-15 of 100kdt size.<BR>
> >   Crew is around 3000 people ( e.g. for VS-13 2 bridge, 99 engineering,<BR>
> >   22 maintenance, 129 gunner, 129 flight, 250 comanding officers,<BR>
> >   61 stewards, 15 medics - plus 1230 people for 600 30dt fighters<BR>
> >   and 10 100dt shuttles ) - The Galactica story fits perfectly into<BR>
> >   Sylean core around 1200 imperial.<BR>
 <BR>
> There are indications that the Battlestars are *considerably* older than 100<BR>
> years.<BR>
<BR>
A BG episode which ends with a transmission of the first<BR>
Solomani lunar landing (1969 AD or -2,569 Imperial) playing<BR>
on a video screen unseen by any of the crew. If you wish to<BR>
remain true to this bit of canon and wish to believe that<BR>
it was an original broadcast which then traveled at the speed<BR>
of light than the Galactica would have to be about 1,155 parsecs <BR>
from Earth in Milieu 1200. <BR>
<BR>
In this episode Apollo explains that when the Galactica was<BR>
laid down "five hundred yahrens or so ago" its Astrogators<BR>
used to go to the observation dome on the Galactica's highest <BR>
dorsal point to take star sightings. IIRC the yahren has been<BR>
established as being something close to a year in length by<BR>
references to character ages. OTOH BG humans can live up to<BR>
200 yahrens and Adama is presumably over 100 yahrens old or he<BR>
would not say things like "If I were a hundred yahrens younger."<BR>
Thus either the yahren is significantly shorter than the year,<BR>
the Colonials were genetically altered like the Vilani for<BR>
significantly longer lives, anagathics technology is ubiquitous<BR>
among the Colonists or some combination thereof.<BR>
<BR>
If you want to place the Galactica anywhere within 200 parsecs<BR>
of Terra than the story needs to take place before -1917 Imperial<BR>
(200 * 3.261 = 652.2	1969 + 652 = 2621). If the BG story did not <BR>
take place during the Rule of Man than it may be best to place<BR>
it prior to -2,398 which would place it no farther from Earth<BR>
than 52 parsecs or so. This however does not fit with BG's<BR>
references to traveling between galaxies (A notion that I find to<BR>
be utter felgercarb but that's another issue entirely).<BR>
<BR>
Moreover I'm not sure how to reconcile BG's statement that Earth <BR>
is a human colony with Trav's statement that Earth is the original<BR>
human homeworld unless you declare one or both of these statements<BR>
to be wrong. One possible reconciliation might be to suggest that<BR>
the Colonials are a minor human race transported from Earth by <BR>
the Ancients and that they've simply misunderstood the story over<BR>
the last 300,00 years.<BR>
<BR>
The Colonists home star system had _12_ inhabitable human colonies<BR>
(and possibly more than just 12 if the Borellian Nomen (sp?)<BR>
came from a different colony than the other colonials). Solar <BR>
systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
sun within the life zone. <BR>
<BR>
Additionally I think Virus infested robots would probably shoot <BR>
better than the Cylons do. :)<BR>
<BR>
> Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC it was established that the Galactica did not start off<BR>
the show with a full complement of Vipers due to combat losses<BR>
against the Cylons in the premiere episode.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:39:13 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
> > <BR>
> I didn't call you a fool, you read in a "tone" which is part of the<BR>
> problem with email.  I also didn't say what my friends practiced-- I said<BR>
> that people in other cultures would be amused by the prevailing Western<BR>
> attitude that morality is the same everywhere.  Most non-Western folks<BR>
> don't believe this.<BR>
<BR>
Actually I would want to check on this one.  I think the Muslims <BR>
and other Indian cultures would.  Though as I said I would have to <BR>
check.<BR>
<BR>
  It is kind of silly to believe that people everywhere<BR>
> would have the same attitude about something, and of course you think you<BR>
> are Right, but so do all the people you're disagreeing with.<BR>
> <BR>
> > You are also right that if you find something that offends you it should <BR>
> > just be deleted or not read. However, it would be nice if you never got <BR>
> > it in the first place.  <BR>
> <BR>
> LOL! I sure agree, it would be nice if people never attempted to convert<BR>
> me to believing in their lord and savior, it would be nice if I never had<BR>
> to see anything on TV that carried the explicit or implicit message that<BR>
> white people are better than everyone else, it would be nice if people<BR>
> didn't ask me to donate money to causes I think are stupid, <BR>
<BR>
I think you know what I meant by this.<BR>
<BR>
but you know<BR>
> what, I am not the dictator of the earth... and almost all the people who<BR>
> annoy me are just as sure they are Right as you are sure that you are<BR>
> Right and I am sure that I am Right, insofar as I believe that Right<BR>
> exists at all (only on alternate Tuesdays when the moon is full...)<BR>
> <BR>
I thought the moon had to be blue as well.<BR>
<BR>
> So when we chuck the first amendment who gets to be Imperial Censor, Tim,<BR>
> me or you?<BR>
> <BR>
I am not calling for an Imperial Censor just self censorship.  Hey <BR>
what happan to the Traveller stuff  ; )<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:45:41 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Longitude<BR>
<BR>
"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote<BR>
><BR>
> One should remember that we are talking about "likely" based on what we<BR>
> can extrapolate from a single data point.....<BR>
<BR>
Aren't Mars (small moons & huge variations in axial tilt) and<BR>
Earth (big moon & moderate variations in axial title) two data<BR>
points? Admittedly two data points aren't much but they are better <BR>
than one.<BR>
<BR>
> >shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
> >> Actually, small fast moons are a lot more likely than "big slow" ones<BR>
> >> like we have,<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote<BR>
> >Small fast moons are more likely on a planet than are big slow<BR>
> >ones they are not, however, necessarily more likely on a habitable<BR>
> >planet or at least on a planet with higher life.<BR>
> >There is evidence that the axial tilt of Mars has varied far<BR>
> >more than the axial tilt of Earth. The moon helps keep the<BR>
> >Earths axial tilt relatively constant. Huge sudden shifts<BR>
> >in axial tilt (mar's axial tilt has varied between about 51%<BR>
> >and about 9%, IIRC) are likely to cause severe damage to<BR>
> >a bio system. Hence worlds with higher life forms may well<BR>
> >be more likely to have big slow ones.<BR>
<BR>
> David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
> Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
> NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
> Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
Your email address suggests that you are more familiar with<BR>
this sort of data than I am, are there any good NASA sites or<BR>
documents on this issue?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:54:29 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Hence my phrasing "one reason why".  There was an excelent PBS special<BR>
> about the Civil War that talked about what a Minie (sp?) Ball would do<BR>
> to a limb.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
If you are referring to "The Civil War", then you should bear in mind that<BR>
Shelby Foote's comments are those of a civil war historian, and not<BR>
necessarily those of say a medical historian.  Original medical sources<BR>
describing wounds are not so horrific as the general historical beliefs.<BR>
SIPRI's "Antipersonnel weapons" has references to US civil war medical<BR>
reports, and contrasts the wounds therein received with modern high velocity<BR>
ammunition.  Military and medical writings of the late 19th century were<BR>
horrified at what modern, high velocity spitzer bullets did, compared to the<BR>
more 'humane' round ball of the mid 1860's.<BR>
<BR>
Recall, too, that disease killed more soldiers than gunfire in wars up until<BR>
WWII.  One shouldn't downplay the immense impact of battlefield medical care<BR>
on the life (and survivability) of the soldier.<BR>
<BR>
JMHO,<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:59:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:43:06 +0300<BR>
> From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2772<BR>
><BR>
> I find many of the posts on this list to be quite insulting and snide all<BR>
the way round.  Most of the posts are off topic, which I skip and look for<BR>
interesting items.  I<BR>
> thought when I saw LKW on the list that this would be a good place in<BR>
which to ask questions and get good answers.  I don't really see that.  As<BR>
for peoples opions being<BR>
> attacked - I see that quiet often.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
The list hasnt been great over the last week or so. Someone said something<BR>
that was somewhere between off-topic, tasteless or offensive, some people<BR>
took offense, some other people took offense at them taking offense, and it<BR>
pretty much went from there.<BR>
<BR>
But it seems to be calming down.<BR>
<BR>
> Can someone please point me to a list where I can get technical / striker<BR>
questions answered?  And then I will unsubscribe from this list.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
OK, your Striker questions ...<BR>
<BR>
Point defense weapons use the Direct Weapon Fire rules, but you need PD Fire<BR>
Control to do it.<BR>
<BR>
Remote launchers for MRLs ... I dont think there are explicit rules for it.<BR>
I'd just use the Missile gear, or fudge it completely at 10 kg and Cr 200<BR>
per launcher, plus communicators at each end.<BR>
<BR>
Autofire bonuses for MRLs .... Tell me, Kaz, do you work for Famile Spofulam<BR>
? I hadnt thought of an automatic rocket launcher designed for direct-fire.<BR>
Sounds like a job for High Energy Solutions. I guess in direct fire role<BR>
they should get the same autofire bonuses as anything else (eg 20 rounds<BR>
gets you +2/+1/0).<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:48 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2774<BR>
<BR>
>   I received two copies of the MT Refrees Companion, together with some<BR>
>    other GDW stuff some years ago, when ordered one. The second has a big<BR>
>    'text' written with an edding on the right top of the cover page. Inside<BR>
>    it has some dozen marks, perhaps for correction. <BR>
<BR>
This is undoubtedly one of the copies maintained by the text department at <BR>
GDW, for internal use as a "correction copy" where errata were recorded <BR>
against the re-typesetting of the next edition.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
> than 52 parsecs or so. This however does not fit with BG's<BR>
> references to traveling between galaxies (A notion that I find to<BR>
> be utter felgercarb but that's another issue entirely).<BR>
<BR>
Ah, yes...  That fun little bit...<BR>
<BR>
> The Colonists home star system had _12_ inhabitable human colonies<BR>
> (and possibly more than just 12 if the Borellian Nomen (sp?)<BR>
> came from a different colony than the other colonials). Solar <BR>
<BR>
Didn't they come from one of the more uninhabitable locations of one of the<BR>
Colonial planets?<BR>
<BR>
> systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
> This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
> extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
> sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
> put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
> sun within the life zone. <BR>
<BR>
I was never to sure if they were in the same Solar system or not....  It's<BR>
almost as if the Galactica was near the Core, and in a very complex mess of<BR>
Suns orbiting Suns, with planets orbiting planets.  I wouldn't even want to<BR>
think about what a mess that would create...<BR>
<BR>
> Additionally I think Virus infested robots would probably shoot <BR>
> better than the Cylons do. :)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe it explains why they were such bad shots.<BR>
<BR>
> > Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC it was established that the Galactica did not start off<BR>
> the show with a full complement of Vipers due to combat losses<BR>
> against the Cylons in the premiere episode.<BR>
<BR>
They might actually have started off with *more* Vipers.  How many Vipers<BR>
did the other Battlestars manage to launch before being destroyed?  I can't<BR>
remember if they got any off or not.  I do know that the Galactica took off<BR>
in the middle of the battle for the Colonies.  Plus in the episode with the<BR>
Pegasus, the Galactica took their Vipers and any personal they could spare<BR>
onboard.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:07:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 tim@premier.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > <BR>
> > I didn't call you a fool, you read in a "tone" which is part of the<BR>
> > problem with email.  I also didn't say what my friends practiced-- I said<BR>
> > that people in other cultures would be amused by the prevailing Western<BR>
> > attitude that morality is the same everywhere.  Most non-Western folks<BR>
> > don't believe this.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually I would want to check on this one.  I think the Muslims <BR>
> and other Indian cultures would.  Though as I said I would have to <BR>
> check.<BR>
> <BR>
The Muslims are very well aware that even though they believe they are<BR>
Right, other people don't-- otherwise they wouldn't call America the Great<BR>
Satan.  <BR>
<BR>
> > > You are also right that if you find something that offends you it should <BR>
> > > just be deleted or not read. However, it would be nice if you never got <BR>
> > > it in the first place.  <BR>
> > <BR>
> > LOL! I sure agree, it would be nice if people never attempted to convert<BR>
> > me to believing in their lord and savior, it would be nice if I never had<BR>
> > to see anything on TV that carried the explicit or implicit message that<BR>
> > white people are better than everyone else, it would be nice if people<BR>
> > didn't ask me to donate money to causes I think are stupid, <BR>
> <BR>
> I think you know what I meant by this.<BR>
> <BR>
There is no difference.  Those ideas offend me just as much as mine do<BR>
you.  Every time I hear someone telling some poor sot that they will burn<BR>
in hell if they don't worship a god whose primary concern is whether you<BR>
have given him enough of the right kind of egoboo, rather than how you've<BR>
behaved overall, I want to scream just as much as you do when you hear<BR>
people laughing about the idea of grown up Ditzie in a rubber catsuit.<BR>
Maybe more. <BR>
<BR>
(I know, I know, that's not True Christianity-- but the yahoos who bug me<BR>
think that it is, and not being Christian myself I have no right to tell<BR>
them who is and who isn't, I just try and stay out of their way and hope<BR>
that they don't get elected to anything.)<BR>
<BR>
The fact that you think you are Right may have blinded you to this. <BR>
<BR>
I squick just like you do, I just don't think people who squick me should<BR>
automatically shut up.  I have only ever said that I thought certain<BR>
methods of expressing dissent are hostile, not that dissent should be<BR>
suppressed.<BR>
<BR>
> > So when we chuck the first amendment who gets to be Imperial Censor, Tim,<BR>
> > me or you?<BR>
> > <BR>
> I am not calling for an Imperial Censor just self censorship.  Hey <BR>
> what happan to the Traveller stuff  ; )<BR>
> <BR>
You won't get self-censorship from me.  Not gonna happen... these topics<BR>
(except for the bad Ditzie joke which I feel would have died a natural<BR>
death a lot sooner if people hadn't gotten all vehement) are relevant to<BR>
the issue of culture.<BR>
<BR>
I will abide by social mores such as not using foul language or<BR>
describing explicit sexual acts but I'm not going to write my posts as<BR>
though I were trying to please Mrs. Grundy because there are a dozen<BR>
different Mrs. Grundies in every state alone and they don't necessarily<BR>
agree, so even if I thought it was worth doing, it's impossible. <BR>
<BR>
There was traveller stuff all OVER my posts-- I asked a legit question,<BR>
which is why don't we assume the same diversity of sexual (and other types<BR>
of) ethics in various TU's that we have in the real world today.  That is<BR>
a valid question-- it's more realistic if customs vary.<BR>
<BR>
The obtrav at the end of your post was statements not questions.  Those<BR>
who want to start from there may feel free-- I'm more interested in the<BR>
questions Stephen Tempest raised.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:10:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> One should remember that we are talkinga about "likely" based on what we<BR>
> can extrapolate from a single data point.....<BR>
<BR>
Nope. From *nine* data points. There are nine planets we have data on...<BR>
<BR>
Mercury: too close to the sun for a satellite to be long term stable<BR>
Venus: farther out, but still problematical<BR>
Earth: huge "moon", the result of a collision that *has* to be low probability<BR>
Mars: two small moons, close in. <BR>
Jupiter: lots of small moons (small relative to the planet)<BR>
Saturn: ditto<BR>
Uranus: ditto<BR>
Neptune: ditto<BR>
Pluto: "double planet" (compare with known "double asteroids")<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2775<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2776<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Tech development curve<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Partial gravity<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
Re:  Longitude<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Longitude<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Battle Field<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Battle Field<BR>
Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Roc: Tastless Sig<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:17:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>As<BR>
>>everyone knows by now, the main problem with trying to predict the future of<BR>
>>technology is that we tend to be too conservative and things come out of the<BR>
>>proverbial left field at us.  Look at the SF from the 60's and 70's - the<BR>
>>computers were all 'Big Iron'.  I've even seen lines like "...and the relays<BR>
>>whirred and clicked..." - transistors were already in common use by that<BR>
>>time.<BR>
><BR>
> Not always.  After all, where is your flying car?<BR>
<BR>
More to the point, we not only don't have bases on the Moon and Mars,<BR>
we threw away the equipment that would let us build them. *Nobody* in<BR>
the 60s would have believed that. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:19:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I'm planning to start a Traveller variant campaign using Battlestar <BR>
> Galactica as the theme.  I snooped around battlestargalactica.com, and <BR>
> while they had some stellar artwork, they didn't have what I <BR>
> need.  Hopefully, someone can point me in the right direction to find the <BR>
> following:<BR>
><BR>
> Size specs for the Galactica and other craft used<BR>
<BR>
When/if you find them, they'll be rather inconsistent. Consistency was<BR>
never a big point in that series.<BR>
<BR>
> Performance specs for the above items<BR>
<BR>
Those will be *completely* out in left field.<BR>
<BR>
Vipers are flat out *impossible* under normal Traveller tech levels.<BR>
Interstellar range craft *that* small? No way.<BR>
<BR>
Then you get to the Galactica versus the "ragtag fleet". Supposedly,<BR>
the fleet has no FTL capability, the Galactica does. I leave it to your<BR>
imagination to figure out the problems that causes.<BR>
<BR>
I think there *was* a sort of "tech manual" for BG. But about all it'd<BR>
be good for is sizes.<BR>
<BR>
For that matter, you can just try to make relative size measurements<BR>
from tapes of episodes. Things like the size of the control room window<BR>
versus the size of the Galactica, the size of a viper versus the<BR>
landing bays, and the size of a human versus the size of a viper.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:27:50 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Partial gravity<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I was wondering about partial gravity:  Would one lose bone mass/muscle<BR>
> strength proportionally with decreasing gravity, or might there be some<BR>
> theshold above which these effects would be negligible?  What got me<BR>
> thinking were plans to have astronauts stay on Mars for extended periods<BR>
> of time (would .34 g be enough to keep them healthy?) but it occurred to<BR>
> me that this would tie in to an earlier thread here about the small worlds<BR>
> which are most common in Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
> AFAIK (and that isn't very far) there haven't been any studies on humans<BR>
> in partial gravity and I can't find any on animals either.  Anyone know of<BR>
> research like this?  If there hasn't been any, how do we know that partial<BR>
> gravity (above a certain point) will any negative effects at all?<BR>
<BR>
As I noted in a previous post, the lack of data is because of lack of<BR>
*ability* to do the tests. <BR>
<BR>
Just how are we supposed to expose anyone or anything to *partial*<BR>
gravity for any length of time? The *only* available method is to use a<BR>
centrifuge on a Shuttle flight. And building and flying such a<BR>
centrifuge is too damned expensive for the very limited data it would<BR>
return (shuttle flights aren't long enough for decent data). The size<BR>
would be severely limited as well. Too limited.<BR>
<BR>
So for now, we have to interpolate between free fall data, and normal<BR>
gee data, as well as extrapolate backwards from studies of the effects<BR>
of increased gravity.<BR>
<BR>
Studies of the effects of prolonged bed rest seem to agree in many<BR>
ways with studies of the effects of zero g. So we have identified a lot<BR>
of the mechanisms involved. <BR>
<BR>
So we are fairly confident of the effects at 0 and 1 g. The real<BR>
question is if the line connecting those two data points is straight or<BR>
curved, and if curved, curved *how*. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:10:06 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
I intended to not post again on this thread, but some people have accused <BR>
me of advocating censorship, and I feel compelled to clarify my <BR>
position.  As I see it, it's not a matter of censorship of self as much as <BR>
consideration of others.<BR>
<BR>
 From where I sit, I saw someone calling safeword on the previous <BR>
thread.  Certain other posters replied to the effect of "Well, it shouldn't <BR>
upset you, and here's why..."<BR>
<BR>
IMO, "no" means "NO."  Full stop.  Not an invitation to try and convert the <BR>
other.<BR>
<BR>
(So I'm stopping.  Have fun beating the horse.)<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:28:18 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re:  Longitude<BR>
<BR>
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote<BR>
>><BR>
>> One should remember that we are talking about "likely" based on what we<BR>
>> can extrapolate from a single data point.....<BR>
><BR>
>Aren't Mars (small moons & huge variations in axial tilt) and<BR>
>Earth (big moon & moderate variations in axial title) two data<BR>
>points? Admittedly two data points aren't much but they are better<BR>
>than one.<BR>
<BR>
The issue isn't the stabilization of axial tilt by a large moon.<BR>
The question is how important that is for life....<BR>
<BR>
>Your email address suggests that you are more familiar with<BR>
>this sort of data than I am, are there any good NASA sites or<BR>
>documents on this issue?<BR>
<BR>
I didn't notice that.  I don't post with that sig to personal<BR>
situations.  To add a disclaimer, I don't speak for NASA.  As<BR>
to web site, ironically, you got the wrong guy.  People who<BR>
don't have anything to do with NASA seem to know the web sites<BR>
better.  I get my information from seminars.  Though some of this<BR>
is discussed in the book "Circumstellar Habitable Zones - Proceddings<BR>
of the First International Conference" published by Travis House<BR>
Publications in Menlo Park, CA.  I'm not saying it is the only<BR>
source (or even the best) but it is one that comes to mind....<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:31:37 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>If you are referring to "The Civil War", then you should bear in mind that<BR>
>Shelby Foote's comments are those of a civil war historian, and not<BR>
>necessarily those of say a medical historian.  Original medical sources<BR>
>describing wounds are not so horrific as the general historical beliefs.<BR>
>SIPRI's "Antipersonnel weapons" has references to US civil war medical<BR>
>reports, and contrasts the wounds therein received with modern high velocity<BR>
>ammunition.  Military and medical writings of the late 19th century were<BR>
>horrified at what modern, high velocity spitzer bullets did, compared to the<BR>
>more 'humane' round ball of the mid 1860's.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if it comes down to competing sources, I'll have to bow out<BR>
(since I'll lose :-).  My source is that PBS special but I'm pretty<BR>
sure that Shelby Foote was only one of the sources for the show.<BR>
><BR>
>Recall, too, that disease killed more soldiers than gunfire in wars up until<BR>
>WWII.  One shouldn't downplay the immense impact of battlefield medical care<BR>
>on the life (and survivability) of the soldier.<BR>
<BR>
That is something I don't disagree with at all...<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:31:49<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
At 09:08 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
>Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
>They were amongst the worst ever written. To run the<BR>
>games I used to port over CoC mechanics which worked<BR>
>well.<BR>
<BR>
I tend to port things either to GURPS or CORPS, depending on how much work<BR>
I'm interested in doing.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:35:48 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Longitude<BR>
<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> One should remember that we are talkinga about "likely" based on what we<BR>
>> can extrapolate from a single data point.....<BR>
><BR>
>Nope. From *nine* data points. There are nine planets we have data on..<BR>
<BR>
I was refering to the correlation of the effect and life.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Summers<BR>
(Who seems cursed for a day (hopefully) to have people read more<BR>
into his posts than he intended :-).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:34:06<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
At 02:21 PM 7/17/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>    Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts & maybe<BR>
>colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the Earth.  I am<BR>
>sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It is a<BR>
>given.<BR>
>    Also considering that 2300 AD is set 300 years, IIRC, after Twilight<BR>
>2000, France would too messed up to become a world power.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, France was the one power that *wasn't* ravaged by the war.. they<BR>
cut themselves off from everyone, shot refugees trying to enter French<BR>
twerritory, and basically out-survived everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
The were in a much better position, compared to the other world powers,<BR>
which had suffered through a nuclear war.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:56:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Well, if it comes down to competing sources, I'll have to bow out<BR>
> (since I'll lose :-).  My source is that PBS special but I'm pretty<BR>
> sure that Shelby Foote was only one of the sources for the show.<BR>
<BR>
True, and I don't mean to be hammering at you views.  I quote sources where<BR>
available out of habit, not to try to say "hey, I know more than you do".<BR>
There is no doubt that the huge caliber BP weapons used in the US civil war<BR>
did horrific damage.  My point is that this is very often overstated.  The<BR>
m-16 itself has been berated as a 'poodle gun' (Jeff Cooper) and hailed as a<BR>
deadly killer (initial reports from Vietnam made ridiculous, IMHO, claims of<BR>
limbs blown off, tremendous wounds, owing to the tumbling bullets--all<BR>
spitzer type bullets will yaw or tumble at some point, BTW).<BR>
<BR>
There were many contributors to the "Civil War", but Foote's description of<BR>
the effect of the minie ball stands out in my mind.  His comments about<BR>
modern high velocity bullets make them sound 'clean'.  I just visited<BR>
Powell's bookstore here in Portland and was perusing the stuff on<BR>
ballistics.  I paged through a volume on forensic investigation of bullet<BR>
wounds (many ghastly photos) and was reminded just how messy an modern<BR>
gunshot wound is.  Not that I needed much reminding after a year plus<BR>
working in an emergency room way back when.  What a modern high velocity<BR>
bullet will do to a human being is not pretty, and makes the lead round ball<BR>
look positively kind.<BR>
<BR>
What is truly amazing, though, is that given the medical technology of the<BR>
day, people were wounded and survived, and indeed, thrived. I often find<BR>
myself commenting "they made them tougher back then".<BR>
<BR>
I thought the "Civil War" was one of the better documentaries ever produced,<BR>
more for the way it humanized and personalized the war than it's technical<BR>
accuracy.  If you want historical 'correctness', you can get all you want<BR>
from the civil war newsgroups.<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Recall, too, that disease killed more soldiers than gunfire in<BR>
> wars up until<BR>
> >WWII.  One shouldn't downplay the immense impact of battlefield<BR>
> medical care<BR>
> >on the life (and survivability) of the soldier.<BR>
><BR>
> That is something I don't disagree with at all...<BR>
<BR>
One can only wonder about wars involving the 3I, where medical technology<BR>
has advanced to the point where almost any non-fatal wound can be treated to<BR>
full recovery.  Wounded soldiers could be returned to combat over and over<BR>
again.  One can only hope that physiological treatments have kept pace with<BR>
'conventional' medicine, else the psycho wards of the Imperium will no doubt<BR>
be full of overused combat veterans.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:02:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, France was the one power that *wasn't* ravaged by the war.. they<BR>
> cut themselves off from everyone, shot refugees trying to enter French<BR>
> twerritory, and basically out-survived everyone else.<BR>
<BR>
How very French...<BR>
<BR>
Easy to imagine if one extrapolates from the DeGaul era of "We'll just go<BR>
our own way".  Of course any major war in Europe is not like to miss France.<BR>
One can imagine the British lobbing a few nukes their way just because,<BR>
well, "They're frogs and had it coming". :) <---NOTE SMILEY<BR>
<BR>
Tod "I like escargot as well as the next guy" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:14:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
>>Subject: Re: Ditzie, Sex et al PLEASE SHUT UP<BR>
>><BR>
>>the question of what the age of consent might be in various cultures<BR>
>>in various TU's is a valid one and even on topic, <BR>
><BR>
> ...and can lead to interesting situations and conflicts in a game.  To<BR>
> illustrate, in these parts the age of consent (for women) is 16;  it's<BR>
> well ingrained in our culture and I can't really imagine any other<BR>
> situation - the idea that a society would try and prevent 16-17 year<BR>
> olds from having sexual relationships seems ludicrous.  However,<BR>
> comments on the list clearly show that in other cultures, the idea<BR>
> isn't strange at all.  <BR>
<BR>
Heck, until recently, the age of consent in a few parts of the US was<BR>
as low as 13.<BR>
<BR>
> In an environment like the 3I, each planet could have very different<BR>
> laws on marriage:  taking into account not only the age of consent,<BR>
> but also polygamy, same-sex marriage, and even inter-species marriage<BR>
> (obviously, any such couple would have to adopt if they wanted kids...<BR>
> Or cubs).  Imagine the happily married couple from planet X (where the<BR>
> age of consent is 14), off to celebrate their fifth wedding<BR>
> anniversary with an off-world holiday, only to discover than at their<BR>
> destination the age of consent is 21 and they're liable to arrest for<BR>
> child abuse if they share a hotel room...<BR>
<BR>
Not likely. I expect that the Imperium will have something like the<BR>
"full faith and credence" clause of the US Constitution. If you are<BR>
validly married in one jurisdiction, the others have to accept it, even<BR>
if you *couldn't* be legally married there.<BR>
<BR>
To put it another way, the local law can set limits on *getting*<BR>
married. Not on *being* married. Though there are attempts to get<BR>
around this.<BR>
<BR>
You see, marriage is legally a *contract*. And the Imperium is *not*<BR>
going to allow a valid contract to become invalid simply because the<BR>
parties travelled to a world with different laws.<BR>
<BR>
Note that visiting Moslems with multiple wives only get hassled about<BR>
it if they wish to immigrate or become citizens. <BR>
<BR>
Still, that couple had best have a certified copy of their marriage<BR>
license with them. <BR>
<BR>
It'll get even more interesting if the couple couldn't be married *at<BR>
all* under local law. To use an ugly example from US history, if they<BR>
were of different "races". Or to use a current example, they may be the<BR>
same sex.<BR>
<BR>
Heck, maybe the local goverment is religiously based, and "heathens"<BR>
can't get married under local law.<BR>
<BR>
Or maybe the marriage isn't a problem, but the *consequences* of being<BR>
married are. Such as the husband not being allowed out in public<BR>
without his wife. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:29:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 2, longish)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> * Endocrine<BR>
> Fluid retention mechanisms are inhibited, most notably the renin-<BR>
> angiotensin-aldosterone axis and the secretion of vasopressin<BR>
> (AKA antidiuretic hormone). Reduced levels of the adrenal steroid<BR>
> aldosterone and vasopressin, with an increase in the stimulus threshold <BR>
> required to release them, leads to a vulnerabilty to fluid depletion.<BR>
> The reserve required to withstand insults like blood loss, acceleration<BR>
> or infection is therefore decreased.<BR>
<BR>
How about vulnerability to heat induced loss of fluid (I can never<BR>
remember which of the "heat xxxx" names goes with low fluid).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:11:58 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 01:13 PM 7/17/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
> >   fine - to make it Travellerish :<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   The Galactica should be an 100 year old VS-13 to VS-15 of 100kdt size.<BR>
> >   Crew is around 3000 people ( e.g. for VS-13 2 bridge, 99 engineering,<BR>
> >   22 maintenance, 129 gunner, 129 flight, 250 comanding officers,<BR>
> >   61 stewards, 15 medics - plus 1230 people for 600 30dt fighters<BR>
> >   and 10 100dt shuttles ) - The Galactica story fits perfectly into<BR>
> >   Sylean core around 1200 imperial.<BR>
><BR>
>There are indications that the Battlestars are *considerably* older than 100<BR>
>years.<BR>
><BR>
>Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
<BR>
To answer some of my own questions, during a break at the office I hit the <BR>
net and found a couple resources that helped.<BR>
<BR>
First, the size:  Some sources place the length at about 609 meters or 2000 <BR>
feet.  Maybe, maybe not.  Based on some of the technical drawing teasers <BR>
from an upcoming Technical Manual due out later this month, it looks to me <BR>
that Galactica and Pegasus are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 - 1400 <BR>
meters or more in length.  This is based on the size of the Vipers in the <BR>
hanger decks and the size illustrated size of the hanger decks themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Age:  The actual series places the age of Galactica at about 500 years.<BR>
<BR>
Fighter complement:  Varies, but most agree that standard complement is two <BR>
75 Viper squadrons with the ability to house at least twice that number for <BR>
extended operations.  As to the size of the Viper itself, I would have to <BR>
disagree with the 30 ton estimate.  10 tons maybe, perhaps between 8 and 12.<BR>
<BR>
Crew:  Lots.  ;-)<BR>
<BR>
More as I find it.<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net<BR>
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
      may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:16:42 CDT<BR>
From: "Hana Herron" <herhcis118@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Battle Field<BR>
<BR>
My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
>>it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
>>overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
>>field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
>>don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why <BR>
>>you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
>>so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
>>the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
<BR>
I don't agree. I don't think there is any trend of reducing weapon power.<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:28:05 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
One thing I've always wondered about the drop to 5.56 mm weapons:  Don't<BR>
they give the enemy a lot more hard cover?  A good-sized tree will stop a<BR>
5.56 round, but not a 7.62 mm round, won't it? <BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:45:34 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Battle Field<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Hana Herron" <herhcis118@hotmail.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:16 AM<BR>
Subject: Battle Field<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> My understandins is that reducing weapon power is a trend because<BR>
> >>it is simply felt that weapons have, in the past, been<BR>
> >>overpowered, if you shoot someone with a M16 on the battle<BR>
> >>field his isn't likely to do much more fighting.  You really<BR>
> >>don't need to tear him up like old time weapons (that is one reason why<BR>
> >>you see so many amputation in the civil war, the rounds were<BR>
> >>so overpowered, due to the weight of the ball, that a hit in<BR>
> >>the limb would tear it up to much to be saved)<BR>
><BR>
> I don't agree. I don't think there is any trend of reducing weapon power.<BR>
<BR>
No , that's not it at all.<BR>
<BR>
The overall 'power' of weapons has increased, but the amount of energy<BR>
required for each round has reduced (certainly since WWII). ie a lighter<BR>
bullet travelling a sufficient speed at 300m is considered as effective a<BR>
man-stopper as a heavier, faster bullet at 500m (as you rarely shoot at<BR>
ranges over 300m anyway). As a result you can carry more ammo, have less of<BR>
an effect from recoil, possibly achieve a higher cyclic rate (as you are<BR>
shifting less metal around) so the effective firepower increases, though<BR>
each individual round is less powerful in itself.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:54:59 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
<BR>
 At 09:08 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, someone wrote:<BR>
>Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
>They were amongst the worst ever written. To run the<BR>
>games I used to port over CoC mechanics which worked<BR>
>well.<BR>
<BR>
I know this game well.  For one thing, I know the authors (not too well, admittedly, but they're all home-town guys).  For another, I played in a Dr. Who campaign for about a year circa 1987-8 (the GM was not one of the authors).  I still remember it as one of the best campaigns I ever played in.  However, a few years later, out of nostalgia, I bought a copy of the rules and was very surprised to find out they were nothing like the ones we played with (e.g. the rules only use D6, we mostly used D10).  I have no idea what sort of game-system our GM was using (or if he was using one at all); I know that when we played he had the Dr. Who boxed set and a bunch of handwritten notes, and that was it.  (Another thing:  I still have my old character, and the numbers on the sheet are completely compatible with those generated by the rulebooks, but in play their meaning was totally different)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  This GM was also a Traveller fan and it was partially from his influence that I first picked up the game (with the MegaTraveller boxed set -- I was thoroughly overwhelmed and confused for about a year).  I regret that I never got to play Trav with him; and tried (usually unsuccessfully) to emulate his style in all my subsequent Traveller campaigns.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:56:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
>How very French...<BR>
<BR>
Easy to imagine if one extrapolates from the DeGaul era of "We'll just go<BR>
our own way".  Of course any major war in Europe is not like to miss France.<BR>
One can imagine the British lobbing a few nukes their way just because,<BR>
well, "They're frogs and had it coming". :) <---NOTE SMILEY<<BR>
<BR>
Oddly enough, the French weren't THAT treacherous with their refusal to<BR>
fight.<BR>
The Soviets started the war with the Chinese, but it was the Germans who<BR>
crossed the border first in Europe with most of the rest of NATO following<BR>
along. Lower on the scale would be Greece and Italy who wound up fighting<BR>
NATO actively and nearly changing sides completely. The French just told<BR>
everyone to take a hike and then refused to allow refugees in over the land<BR>
border. Later on they started getting aggressive, occupying all the way to<BR>
the Rhine as well as virtually annexing Belgium. But by then several "stray"<BR>
missiles had taken their toll on France as well.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:05:22 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
<BR>
There was _another_ Dr. Who game out there, which I distinctly remember<BR>
used D10.  It was made by a British publisher, and AFAIK it was the only<BR>
game title they came out with.<BR>
<BR>
Ironically, my one and only Traveller campaign *sniff* came to an end when<BR>
one of my friends started up a Dr. Who campaign using this system.  It was<BR>
an obscene amount of fun, though.<BR>
<BR>
> I know this game well.  For one thing, I know the authors (not too<BR>
> well, admittedly, but they're all home-town guys).  For another, I<BR>
> played in a Dr. Who campaign for about a year circa 1987-8 (the GM was<BR>
> not one of the authors).  I still remember it as one of the best<BR>
> campaigns I ever played in.  However, a few years later, out of<BR>
> nostalgia, I bought a copy of the rules and was very surprised to find<BR>
> out they were nothing like the ones we played with (e.g. the rules<BR>
> only use D6, we mostly used D10).  I have no idea what sort of<BR>
> game-system our GM was using (or if he was using one at all); I know<BR>
> that when we played he had the Dr. Who boxed set and a bunch of<BR>
> handwritten notes, and that was it.  (Another thing:  I still have my<BR>
> old character, and the numbers on the sheet are completely compatible<BR>
> with those generated by the rulebooks, but in play their meaning was<BR>
> totally different)<BR>
 <BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:57:21 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
>> This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
>> extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
>> sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
>> put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
>> sun within the life zone. <BR>
><BR>
> I was never to sure if they were in the same Solar system or not....  It's<BR>
> almost as if the Galactica was near the Core, and in a very complex mess of<BR>
> Suns orbiting Suns, with planets orbiting planets.  I wouldn't even want to<BR>
> think about what a mess that would create...<BR>
<BR>
The Core doesn't *have* inhabitable planets. They are population II<BR>
stars (first generation) which means nothing but gas giants (and those<BR>
are hydrogen/helium *only*). Same goes for globular clusters as I<BR>
recall.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:49:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> The Colonists home star system had _12_ inhabitable human colonies<BR>
> (and possibly more than just 12 if the Borellian Nomen (sp?)<BR>
> came from a different colony than the other colonials). Solar <BR>
> systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
> This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
> extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
> sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
> put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
> sun within the life zone. <BR>
<BR>
Please note that the way they use "star system" is *very* inconsistent.<BR>
And given that they keep having all these "sub light" ships moving<BR>
between stars, I think the colonies were a close *cluster* of 12 stars.<BR>
Say a dozen stars all reachable by jump-1.<BR>
<BR>
I don't recall anything that would contradict this from the series.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, this would be one way of dealing with the "sub-light" versus<BR>
"lightspeed" drives in BG. Have the civilian ships have J-1, and the<BR>
miltary ship (the Galactica and her shuttles) have J-2 or even J-3. <BR>
<BR>
Note that the "shuttles" *have* to have jump, given things that have<BR>
been done with them. So do the Vipers, but I think we just have to<BR>
write *that* off.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:23:11 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Roc: Tastless Sig<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I know that...we get htem here too...you should see one of<BR>
> them...crudely hacked from 'a day at the baseball with your son' to '<BR>
> a day at the cricket with your son'...<BR>
<BR>
Hey you "stupid furriners" aren't supposed to notice that (or I bet<BR>
that's the way the ad execs think).<BR>
<BR>
> I still think with a history of school shootings it's still a bit<BR>
> tasteless..<BR>
<BR>
I hadn't thought of those, my first thought was an armed robbery.<BR>
<BR>
Or somebody in a cyberpunk game... :-)<BR>
<BR>
*****<BR>
<BR>
Having recently watched that movie AGAIN (my kids got it on vid over the<BR>
weekend), I actually thought it was a reference to Keanu and friends...<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2776<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Monday, July 17 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2777<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
Re: The Value of Errors<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
Re: Telling Longitude by Lunar Obs.<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage <BR>
Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Doctor Who<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:22:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: healyzh@aracnet.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Dr. Who nostalgia<BR>
<BR>
> There was _another_ Dr. Who game out there, which I distinctly remember<BR>
> used D10.  It was made by a British publisher, and AFAIK it was the only<BR>
> game title they came out with.<BR>
<BR>
ISTR that the publisher was Virgin.  I believe that the author is actually a<BR>
member of this list.  The rights reverted back to the author or authors, and<BR>
last I saw it was available freely on the net.  Basically doing a search on<BR>
Dr Who and RPG should turn something up.<BR>
<BR>
			Zane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:36:32 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: The Value of Errors<BR>
<BR>
Moin Chris Seamans,<BR>
<BR>
> Whether you're collecting coins, trading cards, comics or<BR>
> roleplaying books errors will creep in. While errors make a collectable<BR>
> rarer, they don't always make that same collectable more valuable.<BR>
<BR>
  we should distinct between 12 year kids trading MTG or people who<BR>
  are playing RPGs since more than a dozen years. Some collectors<BR>
  mentality is fine on the school ground - but not in the psycology<BR>
  of friendly sharing of copies, usual seen in RPG groups.<BR>
  <BR>
Moin Loren,<BR>
<BR>
> This is undoubtedly one of the copies maintained by the text department at <BR>
> GDW, for internal use as a "correction copy" where errata were recorded <BR>
> against the re-typesetting of the next edition.<BR>
<BR>
  it has a high value for me - but its not for sale.<BR>
<BR>
  what happend to all those erratas - is a list of complete GDW MT erratas<BR>
  available somewhere ?<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:41:44 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>> That is something I don't disagree with at all...<BR>
><BR>
>One can only wonder about wars involving the 3I, where medical technology<BR>
>has advanced to the point where almost any non-fatal wound can be treated to<BR>
>full recovery.  Wounded soldiers could be returned to combat over and over<BR>
>again.  One can only hope that physiological treatments have kept pace with<BR>
>'conventional' medicine, else the psycho wards of the Imperium will no doubt<BR>
>be full of overused combat veterans.<BR>
<BR>
I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
at a hospital.  (And high tech combat is already sufficiently<BR>
deadly).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:05:09 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I think the big problem some people (I) had with this subject is that I<BR>
> truly feel right in being offended by under age (18 as per most Western<BR>
> Culture) children and sex.<BR>
<BR>
That 18 is very recent. Also, you seem to be conflating two *separate*<BR>
ideas. Sex involving minors and adults, and sex involving only minors.<BR>
As well as the difference between things kids can come up with *on<BR>
their own*, and stuff they've been introduced to by adults. <BR>
<BR>
Those were *my* reasons for replying to the "kids and <fitb> don't<BR>
mix". Because it had a *lot* of unexamined *assumptions* in it.<BR>
<BR>
> Secondly,  Kiri, your tone just about said that I am a fool and closed<BR>
> mineded for being offended by the idea because others like your<BR>
> friends in a different culture practice it.<BR>
<BR>
Folks in *this* culture practice it. <BR>
<BR>
I don't see anyone calling you a fool. At worst, you are being<BR>
"challenged" to stop and think things thru, especially any assumptions<BR>
you've based your response on.<BR>
<BR>
It looked to *me* like several people saw "B&D" and immediately jumped<BR>
to conclusions based on media hype rather than reality. Having<BR>
*perceived* kids involved just made things worse.<BR>
<BR>
Unexamined beliefs generally get folks in trouble. :-)<BR>
<BR>
For the record, I disapprove of non-consensual activities. Children<BR>
can't consent. Therefore adults involved with children is wrong.<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, I think some "children" *are* capable of consent,<BR>
just as some "adults" *aren't*. The problem is finding better rules<BR>
than chronological age. *I* certainly wouldn't want to be the person<BR>
having to rule on *that*.<BR>
<BR>
Also for the record, kids *do* come up with games that adults might<BR>
consider "sexual" even though the *kids* have no such intent. A *lot*<BR>
of these games are essentially D/S or B&D (neither sort of behaviors<BR>
needs to have *any* sex involved, even with adults).<BR>
<BR>
Kids need to be steered away from "inappropriate" behavior. But it<BR>
needs to be explained *why* it's inappropriate. Without trying to<BR>
"indoctrinate" them to the extent that they become ashamed of desires<BR>
that may be normal *for them*.<BR>
<BR>
That sort of thing has led to the high rate of teen suicides. Kids who<BR>
have been inadvertently "taught" that being "gay" (or "kinky") is some<BR>
horrible, *unforgivable* SIN aren't going to ask the persons who taught<BR>
them that for help. And lacking that normal support mechanism, they<BR>
tend to be far more likely to try suicide.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not saying that parents should be hypocrites. Just that they need to<BR>
be careful about what they are inadvertently teaching their kids. I'd<BR>
hope that any parent worthy of the name would rather deal with a gay<BR>
child than a dead one. And ditto for "kinky" ones.<BR>
<BR>
> Obv Traveller/Social Questions<BR>
><BR>
> How do cultures transfer their beliefs or develop new ones?<BR>
<BR>
Often parent/"teachers" to child. Sometimes the lessons learned aren't<BR>
the ones intended. Other times, it becomes "obvious" that the<BR>
mainstream culture is badly mistaken about something, and groups will<BR>
try alternatives. Mostly they fail (the mainstream culture *is* the end<BR>
result of a long chain of *successful* social experiments :-)<BR>
<BR>
Sometimes what's tried works better. And eventually *becomes* the<BR>
mainstream culture. Or at least it works "well enough" and you wind up<BR>
with two (or more) cultures with the balance shifting back and forth.<BR>
<BR>
I think the *ideal* is lots of "subcultures" co-existing. that makes<BR>
the overall society better suited to dealing with changes, because there<BR>
will be a bunch of different approaches to dealing with any change.<BR>
<BR>
> Human<BR>
> Have there been a vast new wave of vegetarianism on the K`kree border?<BR>
<BR>
Possible, but I see an equal (if not *greater*) likelihood of there<BR>
being a "backlash" reaction to the *militancy* of the K'kree. Which<BR>
would result in human vegetarians being looked down on, and lots of<BR>
conspicuous consumption of meat. <BR>
<BR>
And likely K'kree jokes as bad as any on the list. :-)<BR>
<BR>
>  How many psionic users in the Imperium have fled to the Zho's or now<BR>
> live on world's closer the board?<BR>
<BR>
Some would flee. Others would hide. Consider the response of Jews to<BR>
the persecution in Germany.<BR>
<BR>
> Have human's base any mercenary units on Aslan or Vargr tactics<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure that there are "specifies specific" tactics. It'd also be<BR>
*real* hard to deal with in the game. Because the tactics would have to<BR>
*actually* work.<BR>
<BR>
> Aslan<BR>
> Is there homosexuality/transsexuality in this race.  On the IRC we argued<BR>
> this in reference to body/sex changes. We concluded that probably not;<BR>
> since they have a clear and well define sex roles where as humans' dont.<BR>
<BR>
Even in human cultures *with* clear sex roles, there have been people<BR>
who took the "wrong" role. Ranging from simple transvestism (wearing<BR>
the clothes of the opposite sex) to living as if they were a member of<BR>
the other sex.<BR>
<BR>
And homosexuality has *nothing* to do with "sex roles", and everything<BR>
to do with sexual *attraction*.<BR>
<BR>
There's a stereotype of the "drag queen" type gay. That's no more<BR>
common than the biker in leathers, "hyper-macho" type. And I know<BR>
several "drag queens" who are *not* homosexual. In fact *most*<BR>
transvestites aren't gay.<BR>
<BR>
Transvestism is far more likely to be a "cultural" thing.<BR>
<BR>
Homosexuality and bisexuality *may* have a biological (genetic?)<BR>
component, but it's not *strictly* necessary given what I've read and<BR>
the people I've talked to. I'm not sure how culture would affect it<BR>
other than approval/disapproval.<BR>
<BR>
And Transsexuality may also have a bio component. And the *only*<BR>
cultural effect would the difficulty of living in the "other" role.<BR>
<BR>
> Vargr<BR>
><BR>
> Are there settled bans nearer the Imperium. But picture the Vikings of<BR>
> Northern France that became Normans, and by the mid 11th and 12<BR>
> centuries a civilizing force.<BR>
<BR>
The maps in the Vargr Alien Module, and in Vilani and Vargr seem to<BR>
show a number of settled groups, with lots of "unorganized" ones in<BR>
between. <BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure that most humans would consider them a "civilizing"<BR>
influence. But there are human worlds in the Vargr extents. And I can<BR>
see cultures influence by Vargr in the border regions.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:56:23 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There was traveller stuff all OVER my posts-- I asked a legit question,<BR>
> which is why don't we assume the same diversity of sexual (and other types<BR>
> of) ethics in various TU's that we have in the real world today.  That is<BR>
> a valid question-- it's more realistic if customs vary.<BR>
<BR>
I agree. And as I continully point out, there are *human* cultures that<BR>
are far more alien than any of the aliens in Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
I'd love to see someone put out a *series* of books on divergent human<BR>
cultures for use in SF & Fantasy. At least one would need to be "adults<BR>
only".<BR>
<BR>
Heck, to use a different example from the one I normally use, consider<BR>
a culture where people *competed* to be sacrificed to the gods.<BR>
Aztec/Maya culture (specificly the ball games they played).<BR>
<BR>
Older references have the *losers* being sacrificed. But finally, the<BR>
evidence was just too strong and current references state that the<BR>
*winners* were the ones who were sacrificed.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:58 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Telling Longitude by Lunar Obs.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> So, I've been thinking about it for a while, but I can't get my head<BR>
> wrapped around how one would tell longitude by observing the moon or moons<BR>
> of a world. Anyone know how this is done?  If so, please explain.<BR>
><BR>
> The basic longitude problem as I see it is that the position of any<BR>
> celestial body "longitudinally" is the result of two confounded variables:<BR>
> Longitude and time.  That is, the constellation Marava might be directly<BR>
> above your head because you are on the Newport Down Meridian and it is<BR>
> midnight or because you are at the Mountain of Dreams and it is 5 a.m. <BR>
> (<--from Tarsus boxed set, not actual figures!).  If you have a good<BR>
> clock, you can determine longitude with that, but if you don't...well<BR>
> apparently there's some trick by which you can do it by observing the<BR>
> moon...er, I mean Gloeh and Frond (right?).  <BR>
><BR>
> If anyone can explain this to me, that would be quite cool.  I've got<BR>
> images of primitive mariners with amazing math skills and big ancient<BR>
> chart books (updated occasionally because of precession) doint amazing<BR>
> feats of navigation on worlds with seven moons...<BR>
<BR>
Simple. Well, not that simple, but not much worse than regular<BR>
celestial navigation. <BR>
<BR>
The position of a moon *as observed* depends on the time and the<BR>
latitude and longitude of the observer. Latitude is easily determined.<BR>
Solving for longitude is a bit harder, as you have to work with local<BR>
time and the date, as well as the position of the moon (both height<BR>
above the horizon, and distance from the pole or some other stars)<BR>
<BR>
With more than one moon, it gets even easier. You measure the angle<BR>
between the moons (and correct for viewing angle). That, plus the date<BR>
tells you what *time* it is. Or rather, which of a few times it could<BR>
be. Since you have *some* idea of your position (I'm somewhere in the<BR>
northern half of the major ocean, 4 days out from XXX), you cam<BR>
eliminate all but one because either they wouldn't be visible from<BR>
where you are (wrong side ofthe planet) or they'd be at a different<BR>
position against the stars. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:22 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
<BR>
>Then you get to the Galactica versus the "ragtag fleet". Supposedly,<BR>
>the fleet has no FTL capability, the Galactica does. I leave it to your<BR>
>imagination to figure out the problems that causes.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    As a big BSG fan, IIRC, they talked about that.  Every ship in the<BR>
Ragtag Fleet did have the ability to go FTL, to one degree or another, but<BR>
could not due to fuel limitations.  So IMHO, they, the BSG & the Ragtag<BR>
Fleet were going at a high percent to sublight so that the realitivistic<BR>
effects would help them out.<BR>
    As for the ships, go here:  http://www.shipschematics.net/bsg/<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:12:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>    Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts & maybe<BR>
>>colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the Earth.  I am<BR>
>>sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It is a<BR>
>>given.<BR>
>>    Also considering that 2300 AD is set 300 years, IIRC, after Twilight<BR>
>>2000, France would too messed up to become a world power.<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, France was the one power that *wasn't* ravaged by the war.. they<BR>
>cut themselves off from everyone, shot refugees trying to enter French<BR>
>twerritory, and basically out-survived everyone else.<BR>
><BR>
>The were in a much better position, compared to the other world powers,<BR>
>which had suffered through a nuclear war.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Then IIRC, incorrectly.  *weg*  Anyway, the IIRC, might have been from a<BR>
great champaign a friend of mine ran.  Oh well, one cannot win it all.<BR>
    Of course the shooting of refugees is not out of character for the<BR>
French.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:15:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>> Actually, France was the one power that *wasn't* ravaged by the war..<BR>
they<BR>
>> cut themselves off from everyone, shot refugees trying to enter French<BR>
>> twerritory, and basically out-survived everyone else.<BR>
><BR>
>How very French...<BR>
><BR>
>Easy to imagine if one extrapolates from the DeGaul era of "We'll just go<BR>
>our own way".  Of course any major war in Europe is not like to miss<BR>
France.<BR>
>One can imagine the British lobbing a few nukes their way just because,<BR>
>well, "They're frogs and had it coming". :) <---NOTE SMILEY<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Tod, I know a few pilots in the USAF, which would also do that as well.<BR>
And, right now, in the case of a major landwar in Europe, one of the plans<BR>
that the US & UK have worked up, is one that includes the French as the<BR>
agressor nation.  Hell, they sell weapons to terrorist nations, why not make<BR>
them an agressor nation?<BR>
<BR>
>Tod "I like escargot as well as the next guy" Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Which means you don't like it either.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:24:17 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>One can only wonder about wars involving the 3I, where<BR>
>medical technology has advanced to the point where almost<BR>
>ny non-fatal wound can be treated to full recovery. <BR>
>Wounded soldiers could be returned to combat over and over<BR>
>again.  One can only hope that physiological treatments<BR>
>have kept pace with 'conventional' medicine, else the <BR>
>psycho wards of the Imperium will no doubt be full of<BR>
>overused combat veterans.<BR>
<BR>
My first thought was "Der Besuch der alten Dame"[1] meets<BR>
"Die lange lange Strasse lang"[2] meets "The Forever<BR>
War,"[3] meets "We All Died at Breakaway Station."[4]  <BR>
<BR>
[1] The old lady has been in so many accidents that the<BR>
protagonist must ask, "bist Du denn alle Prothese?" (or<BR>
something to that effect).<BR>
<BR>
[2] The returning soldier has two (maybe only one; it's<BR>
been a long time since I read this play) wooden legs and is<BR>
wearing Gasmaskenbrille because he has lost his own<BR>
eyeglasses.<BR>
<BR>
[3] "I don't know about prosthetic replacement whatever<BR>
sir, but that is going to be a leg."  (Again, not an exact<BR>
quote unless my memory somehow rolled extreme success<BR>
without my knowing it.)<BR>
<BR>
[4] Captain Bracer lost the lower 2/3 of his body to enemy<BR>
energy weapon fire, and now a machine provides mobility<BR>
(tracked suspension, as I recall) and keeps his heart and<BR>
brain functioning.<BR>
<BR>
All of these characters are messed up psychologically to<BR>
varying degrees.  It seems to me that even if one knows<BR>
intellectually that one will be OK and be completely 100%<BR>
normal in a relatively short time, there should ordinarily<BR>
be a huge psychological trauma associated with huge<BR>
physical trauma, like losing large body parts, senses, etc.<BR>
 Someone (probably Dr. O'Connor) posted something to the<BR>
list a while ago about how no one recovers from post<BR>
traumatic shock disorder, because the situation of being<BR>
helpless and traumatized permanently changes certain<BR>
chemical aspects of the brain.  <BR>
<BR>
Better understanding will probably develop over the next<BR>
few thousand years, but it is a very large problem.  This<BR>
situation is something that the Zhodani probably handle a<BR>
lot better than the Imperials.  <BR>
<BR>
Well, player characters will probably continue to respond<BR>
like Frank Sinatra's character in a movie whose title<BR>
escapes me.  After a very dangerous mission, he returns to<BR>
a little Italian town where one of the boys who has<BR>
befriended him says, "Capitani [or whatever]! You have lost<BR>
your arm!" and Frank says, "Oh, yeah, I did.  You know<BR>
what? I don't even miss it."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:34:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
<BR>
>Easy to imagine if one extrapolates from the DeGaul era of<BR>
>"We'll just go our own way".  Of course any major war in <BR>
>Europe is not like to miss France. One can imagine the<BR>
>British lobbing a few nukes their way just because,<BR>
>well, "They're frogs and had it coming". :) <---NOTE<BR>
SMILEY<BR>
<BR>
The cold war between Britain and France has been going on<BR>
for _hundreds_ of years.  Remember that they fought a war<BR>
called the Hundred Years War just six hundred years ago. <BR>
Some of them are probably still nursing old wounds over it.<BR>
 During the Falklands War, the Argentines were primarily<BR>
armed with French weapons.  Just before the First World<BR>
War, Britain and France almost went to war over their<BR>
African colonies (Fashona? is that the place they both sent<BR>
columns to occupy?).  Where was the first place the British<BR>
landed in 1944?  Normandy, a traditionally British<BR>
possession (well, OK, you can also say that Britain was<BR>
traditionally a Norman possession, but the Normans weren't<BR>
French).  I take this whole European Union thing with a<BR>
large grain of salt.  Look at the Mad Cow Disease thing a<BR>
few years ago.  <BR>
<BR>
OK, OK, that's enough rant.  Here's ob Traveller:  I read<BR>
somewhere, probably in Challenge Magazine, that the<BR>
timeline for 2300 AD was derived from a very long and<BR>
abstract game played at GDW by all of the principals that<BR>
set up the future history.  They basically played Twilight:<BR>
2000 at a macro level for 300 years.  And I thought I had<BR>
sort of a dream job.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:49:03 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
Moin Kurt Feltenberger,<BR>
<BR>
> First, the size:  Some sources place the length at about 609 meters or 2000 <BR>
> feet.  Maybe, maybe not.  <BR>
<BR>
  600m brings the ship into the 300kdt range - with only up to 300 light<BR>
  fighters on bord - the imperial fleet designation was certainly not V?<BR>
  for a ship of that size.<BR>
<BR>
  Perhaps a BB-11 to BB-13 ? Here the low number of fighters would fit.<BR>
<BR>
  BB-11 - crew 23778 - 200 small  30dt crafts<BR>
  BB-12 - crew 21927 -  60 medium 50dt crafts, 200 small 10dt crafts.<BR>
  BB-13 - crew  8462 -  60 medium 50dt crafts, 200 small 10dt crafts.<BR>
  <BR>
> Fighter complement:  Varies, but most agree that standard complement is two <BR>
> 75 Viper squadrons with the ability to house at least twice that number for <BR>
> extended operations.  As to the size of the Viper itself, I would have to <BR>
> disagree with the 30 ton estimate.  10 tons maybe, perhaps between 8 and 12.<BR>
<BR>
  had they been single or double seat - I prefer 30dt fighter, as they have<BR>
  a gunner and a decent fire control, for combat effectivness. The Rampart<BR>
  is a bad design. The pilot can control only one missile at a time while<BR>
  course has to be controled by autopilot evasion.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:45:00 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage <BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was<BR>
>Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
>Not likely. I expect that the Imperium will have something<BR>
>like the "full faith and credence" clause of the US<BR>
>Constitution. If you are validly married in one<BR>
>jurisdiction, the others have to accept it, even if you<BR>
>*couldn't* be legally married there.<BR>
<BR>
No, I don't think the Imperium will have a "full faith and<BR>
credit" requirement except as to matters directly affecting<BR>
interstellar commerce.  Marriage is called a contract in<BR>
modern American jurisprudence, but fundamentally it is not<BR>
about commerce, but about the state sanctioning a<BR>
relationship whose primary purpose is to create more<BR>
citizens.  That doesn't have anything to do with<BR>
interstellar commerce, and everything to do with local<BR>
cultural and governmental autonomy, and the Imperium simply<BR>
won't interefere with it.  <BR>
<BR>
So if your marriage is valid on World A and not on World B,<BR>
and you want to visit World B with the person(s) considered<BR>
your spouse(s) on World A, you should check the treaty<BR>
between the worlds to see if you have any problems.  You<BR>
should also check with World B's consulate to World A and<BR>
with World A's Foreign Office/State Department to see what<BR>
sort of cultural problems (lynch mobs, spitting, stoning,<BR>
harsh language, refusal to serve at restaurants, etc.) you<BR>
may encounter on World B, even if World B has agreed not to<BR>
prosecute or take other official action against visiting<BR>
citizens of World A based on claimed World A marriages.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 03:46:24 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
Subject: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I am sorry for coming across in such an offending manner. But my point is<BR>
> still valid. As gamers we have put up with alot of slipshod products in<BR>
our<BR>
> day. I have over 20 years experience in role playing. In the early days<BR>
when<BR>
> companies were shoestring businesses and their products only cost us a few<BR>
> dollars a purchase this was not a problem for me. I own every Traveller<BR>
book<BR>
> published under the GDW banner with the exception of the "New Era"<BR>
materials.<BR>
> I am now purchasing the GURPS materials. And I appreciate the very nature<BR>
of<BR>
> the writer and editors' dilemma although I recognize I am not a<BR>
professional<BR>
> so do not know all the nuisances of the industry.  But I am a consumer.<BR>
This<BR>
> is the 21st century, the information age dominated by computers and such<BR>
so I<BR>
> expect to receive a quality product for my hard earned money. Yes, Mr.<BR>
Miller<BR>
> is not the publisher, but he is also not a neophyte to this business<BR>
either.<BR>
> His name is associated with this product. He is the one that receives the<BR>
> praise and the flak for his products image and quality. I was particularly<BR>
> amused by one fan's response that praised Mr. Miller for his sacrifices<BR>
made<BR>
> to publish the CT books. Spoken as if Mr. Miller was not being compensated<BR>
> for this project as if it were a charity effort or something of that<BR>
nature.<BR>
> He is receiving monies generated from the sale of this product. I as a<BR>
> consumer am simply stating my disatisfaction with a product being given to<BR>
us<BR>
> once again lacking quality controls or assurances.  Why did I cite Mr.<BR>
Miller<BR>
> directly, because he is the author and more importantly owns the copyright<BR>
to<BR>
> this material and is being paid from its sales. Why am I speaking out?<BR>
> Because someone must. If we continue to be satisfied with poor publishing,<BR>
> poor bindings, poor editing in the face of rising costs than whose fault<BR>
is<BR>
> it when books begin to hit the $50 a book price but quality doesnot<BR>
increase?<BR>
> I complained to LUG when the new Star Trek hard cover books came out and<BR>
fell<BR>
> apart within months of purchase. And I will complain when other<BR>
manufacturers<BR>
> provide slipshod products we are paying for.  Once again I apologize for<BR>
> insulting your loyalty to the Traveller game, but I felt I was justified<BR>
in<BR>
> my comments.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Here here...... well said that man.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
"nothing that god in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for......"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 05:08:49 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
Moin Leonard Erickson,<BR>
<BR>
> Note that the "shuttles" *have* to have jump, given things that have<BR>
> been done with them. So do the Vipers, but I think we just have to<BR>
> write *that* off.<BR>
<BR>
  the smalest jump able boad I had designed that made sense was 9dt,<BR>
  but this was not human crewed and also not a boat but a robot.<BR>
  The smalest human crewed boat was 40dt - and I packed 12 people<BR>
  inside to give it the fealing of the Aluette U-Boat.<BR>
<BR>
  In TNE, the smallest possible jump drive is 2qm.<BR>
  <BR>
  A 5dt emergency jump 1 backpack for the Rampart would have a 2.1qm <BR>
  jump drive and provides a 20 MegaJoule HPG together with 4dt fuel and<BR>
  cargo. As the main laser has more than 20 MJ, reduce the size of the<BR>
  drive to 1.4qm, as we dont need to fire the laser in jumpspace - but<BR>
  I dont want to be in a Rampart for a week - so I deceided that jump<BR>
  capable autonomous robots would be more my bag ;-)<BR>
<BR>
  Perhaps the Galactica have learned that its good for fighters to jump<BR>
  from those awaken, who are descendent of my robots.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
  mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
  http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:08:03 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Doctor Who<BR>
<BR>
> Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
> They were amongst the worst ever written.<BR>
<BR>
The FASA rules were not the best but I have seen tons of rules and I can<BR>
assure you they are not even close to the worst ever. I much preferred the<BR>
BBC Books version by Ian McDonald and Peter Darvill-Evans. Very different<BR>
rules. With a slight cleanup, it was simple to get it working really well.<BR>
Conversely, I just got T4 and can say the rules are great but not for Doctor<BR>
Who. To each background an appropriate set of rules. Pity most things don't<BR>
get decent rules even if the background is ok.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:28:23 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
on 7/17/00 7:41 PM, David P. Summers at summers@alum.mit.edu wrote:<BR>
> I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
> a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
> a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
> at a hospital.  (And high tech combat is already sufficiently<BR>
> deadly).<BR>
<BR>
I use a drug called NeuroStasis, that help preserve the nervous tissue of<BR>
the recently 'dead' so that a revival can be tried later with higher tech<BR>
gear.  The downside?  Loss of INT and/edu EDU.  The character cheats death,<BR>
but he's just not a bright as he used to be.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2777<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2778<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
What?<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
The Value of Errors<BR>
Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
Re: Striker questions<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage <BR>
Re: The Value of Errors<BR>
RE: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
sexual roles and alien societies<BR>
RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: sexual roles and alien societies<BR>
Other<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: MT Err<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:14:46 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: What?<BR>
<BR>
> Oddly enough, the French weren't THAT treacherous with their refusal to<BR>
> fight.<BR>
<BR>
Is this Traveller 2300 or Twilight 2000? We all forget to retitle the posts<BR>
but could we all try to put new titles on when the subject of the thread<BR>
changes please? I just got lost. Sorry if it sounds like I am griping. All<BR>
the best,<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:11:00 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
Kelly stats things better then me.<BR>
<BR>
> I intended to not post again on this thread, but some people have accused <BR>
> me of advocating censorship, and I feel compelled to clarify my <BR>
> position.  As I see it, it's not a matter of censorship of self as much as <BR>
> consideration of others.<BR>
> <BR>
>  From where I sit, I saw someone calling safeword on the previous <BR>
> thread.  Certain other posters replied to the effect of "Well, it shouldn't <BR>
> upset you, and here's why..."<BR>
> <BR>
> IMO, "no" means "NO."  Full stop.  Not an invitation to try and convert the <BR>
> other.<BR>
> <BR>
> (So I'm stopping.  Have fun beating the horse.)<BR>
> <BR>
I have said my peace so <BR>
I look down at the dead horse and the club in my hand.  I drop it <BR>
and walk away.  <BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:28:49 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: The Value of Errors<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:30:08 -0400<BR>
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Well I just got my copy of this volume also and it didn't contain this<BR>
>>misprint. So I'd have to say that Eris is the lucky recipient of a rare<BR>
>>(and soon to be valuable on e-bay) collectible.<BR>
><BR>
>As a caveat, I would like to point out that collecting errors is a vastly<BR>
>overrated segment of the hobby and that this particular error might<BR>
actually<BR>
>devalue the book.<BR>
<BR>
Yes. That was kind of a joke. My main point was that it wasn't in every<BR>
copy of the reprints and therefore an aberation rather than an errata.<BR>
On the other hand merely sugesting that something is collectible may<BR>
be enough to drive up it's e-bay price to astronomical highs. :)<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 04:56:20 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
I have just got to say something after saying, 'here here' to the person<BR>
making the complaint of shoddy binding.<BR>
I guess I too would be a little unhappy that the pirnt of something I have<BR>
been wanting so much to own for so many years has been subject to poor<BR>
quality control, Though I would not have said anything about. I would have<BR>
kept quiet, to keep it to myslef, where I would have benn wrong in doind so.<BR>
So surely this point being brought to the attention of others should surely<BR>
be a bonus. But bringing down others whom are not directly responsible is<BR>
what the poor quality of binding is doing and only on reflection of this<BR>
point can it be dealt with. Though maybe the severity of this complaint may<BR>
have been a little too harsh.<BR>
In my opinion.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
"Nothing that god in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for...."<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 3:14 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Sorry if I offend the Old Guard<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Howdy!<BR>
><BR>
> > I am sorry for coming across in such an offending manner. But my point<BR>
is<BR>
><BR>
> Are you apologizing for *being* offensive or merely for being taken as<BR>
> offensive. My reading of your words is the latter, which makes your<BR>
> "apology" not much of one.<BR>
><BR>
> On a side note, your formatting makes it very difficult to read your note.<BR>
> You present us with an extensive chunk of text formatted as a single<BR>
> paragraph. I'm not willing to make the non-trivial effort of trying to<BR>
> impute paragraph breaks where they ought to be.<BR>
><BR>
> While you may have a valid gripe about a printing (more precisely binding)<BR>
> goof, you proceed from that molehill and create of it a mountain of<BR>
> alleged incompetence and greed. You rant and rave over a minor glitch<BR>
> (that did not cause loss of data), and proceed to rant about every other<BR>
> problem you have seen or experienced with gaming products.<BR>
><BR>
> You purport to apologize to the "old guard". In fact, you make what is at<BR>
> best a pale imitation of a true apology. You to not actually acknowledge<BR>
> that fault for which you purport to apologize. You immediately follow up<BR>
> with a rambling rant. You make irrelevant remarks that demonstrate that<BR>
> you either are ignorant of the process by which the Traveller Reprints are<BR>
> being published ("look Ma! no typesetting required!") or deliberately<BR>
> deprecate it.<BR>
><BR>
> No evidence has yet been adduced to support even a suggestion of<BR>
misfeasance<BR>
> let along malfeasance on Marc Miller's part. Neither has such been put<BR>
> forth to suggest that he is unwilling to replace the defective product<BR>
with<BR>
> a sound copy.<BR>
><BR>
> I confess that your name is new to me. I don't recall seeing many posts<BR>
> (if any) by you before this. Proceeding on the assumption that you are<BR>
> new to this group, I suggest that you think your approach through before<BR>
> you make any more substantive posts. The impression you leave with me<BR>
> is one of rudeness and selfishness. I hope I am mistaken, and that you<BR>
> will become a civilized member of this group.<BR>
><BR>
> yours,<BR>
> Michael<BR>
> --<BR>
> Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
> herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
> Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
>                           | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:36:52 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
<BR>
>Ian Whitchurch<BR>
...<BR>
>Autofire bonuses for MRLs .... Tell me, Kaz, do you work for Famile Spofulam<BR>
>? I hadnt thought of an automatic rocket launcher designed for direct-fire.<BR>
>Sounds like a job for High Energy Solutions. I guess in direct fire role<BR>
>they should get the same autofire bonuses as anything else (eg 20 rounds<BR>
>gets you +2/+1/0).<BR>
<BR>
  That's what I'd do, although the Striker rules clearly prefer that <BR>
"direct" MRL fire be treated like a mortar with LOS. You'd certainly<BR>
want some kind of penalty beyond the obvious ones for a weapon that<BR>
isn't really designed or suited for the direct fire role.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 05:08:34 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Douglas E. Berry writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > If you want to wound troops, use grenades.<BR>
><BR>
> Or antipersonell mines.  Blowing off feet cripples people reliably, and is<BR>
relatively rarely lethal, and is thus more or less ideal if your goal is<BR>
lots of wounded people.<BR>
><BR>
How about nerve agent.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
"Nothing that god in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for...."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:00:00 +1000<BR>
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <<BR>
>>> I would have thought penguins would be more appropriate.  Maybe even<BR>
>>> Tree Penguins.<BR>
>><BR>
>>I don't even want to *think* about the sort of evolutionary history<BR>
>>that could produce *that* species...<BR>
><BR>
>They are often seen riding on the backs of the Denebian Tree Oxen.<BR>
<BR>
.... from which vantage point they swoop (or at least plummet) down in<BR>
pursuit of migrating herds of bicycle fish.<BR>
<BR>
Certain Vargr groups, impressed by their ferocious Death Stare, have<BR>
attempted to domesticate them as hunting beasts.  Sadly, this proved<BR>
impossible until recently, when artificial devices were used to supplement<BR>
the Penguins' mobility....<BR>
<BR>
It is now not uncommon to see Vargr Penguiners, with their hooded birds on<BR>
their wrists, at Brubecks franchises throughout the Spinward Marches. <BR>
Brubecks are checking their stock for contamination.<BR>
<BR>
Alan Bradley<BR>
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:16:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage <BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Not likely. I expect that the Imperium will have something like the "full<BR>
faith and credence" clause of the US Constitution. If you are validly<BR>
married in one jurisdiction, the others have to accept it, even if you<BR>
*couldn't* be legally married there.<BR>
>><BR>
>No, I don't think the Imperium will have a "full faith and credit"<BR>
requirement except as to matters directly affecting interstellar commerce.<BR>
Marriage is called a contract in modern American jurisprudence, but<BR>
fundamentally it is not about commerce, but about the state sanctioning a<BR>
relationship whose primary purpose is to create more citizens.<BR>
><BR>
That's arguably not so.  Sterile people are allowed to marry and there is no<BR>
penalty for procreation outside of marriage.  In many systems of belief,<BR>
it's more or less explicitly stated that marriage exists to keep sex<BR>
orderly.  If marriage were just about procreation, non-procreating gay<BR>
people wouldn't want to get married so badly.<BR>
<BR>
There are also all sorts of legal and contractual rights inherent in<BR>
marriage which are very much economic concerns-- matters of inheritance,<BR>
especially important if you die before you have children, and guardianship<BR>
if one of you becomes incapacitated, and joint ownership of specified<BR>
properties.<BR>
<BR>
> That doesn't have anything to do with interstellar commerce, and<BR>
everything to do with local cultural and governmental autonomy, and the<BR>
Imperium simply won't interfere with it.<BR>
><BR>
It's likely that either the Imperium will recognize all marriages-- or NONE.<BR>
Leonard's position is the former, Glenn's is the latter.<BR>
<BR>
There's also a compromise position that's used in one of the societies I<BR>
write about and IMTU as well.  In this paradigm, domestic partnership (a<BR>
civil contract which covers sharing income, making you each other's heirs,<BR>
ensuring legal guardianship, etc.) has been separated from marriage, which<BR>
is a religious issue.  Churches are free to refuse to marry groups of people<BR>
in which n > 2, same sex couples and interracial couples if they choose to<BR>
do so, but the government acknowledges all domestic partnerships so long as<BR>
all parties to the contract are of legal age (17 IMTU because that's<BR>
enlistment age) and sound mind, are not previously bound in such a contract<BR>
or enter into it with the consent of their partners, and are willing to make<BR>
full economic disclosure to the other parties involved.  If you want a<BR>
religious marriage you can get one, but the government won't recognize you<BR>
as partners unless you register the partnership.  Also, you can get a<BR>
religious divorce without dissolving the partnership and you can dissolve<BR>
the partnership without a religious divorce.  COMPLETE separation of church<BR>
and state-- religious ministers have no power to enact civil contracts.<BR>
<BR>
In that case, you could legally have a religious marriage at age 13 if your<BR>
religion permitted it and the local age of consent was 13-, but you couldn't<BR>
register your household as a domestic partnership until you were all of age<BR>
to execute legally binding contracts.<BR>
<BR>
>So if your marriage is valid on World A and not on World B, and you want to<BR>
visit World B with the person(s) considered your spouse(s) on World A, you<BR>
should check the treaty between the worlds to see if you have any problems.<BR>
You should also check with World B's consulate to World A and with World A's<BR>
Foreign Office/State Department to see what sort of cultural problems (lynch<BR>
mobs, spitting, stoning, harsh language, refusal to serve at restaurants,<BR>
etc.) you may encounter on World B, even if World B has agreed not to<BR>
prosecute or take other official action against visiting citizens of World A<BR>
based on claimed World A marriages.<BR>
><BR>
Hey, that's ALWAYS a good idea.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not white, I'm of mixed descent, but I LOOK white.  I've had restaurants<BR>
deliberately serve me and various of my Asian boyfriends/partners badly in<BR>
several parts of the Midwest.  I've also experienced harassment on grounds<BR>
of being in a perceived interracial relationship.<BR>
<BR>
Actually this is a problem for one of the side characters in my stories, who<BR>
is also a major NPC when I run Traveller in my own SF universe.  Karu Morrel<BR>
is married to two young sophonts who are under age by the laws of Karu's<BR>
people but who are adults under their own laws-- this is why he chooses not<BR>
to live at home, with his mother, like a good Talassani merchant prince.<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 01:20:46 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: The Value of Errors<BR>
<BR>
On 07/17/00 at 05:30 PM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I'm not saying that Eris' flawed copy will never go up in value, I just<BR>
>wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the value to jump up.<BR>
<BR>
LOL!  The idea of such never even crossed my mind.  All I was<BR>
worried about was if the extra pages were meant that some others<BR>
were missing.  As best I can tell that wasn't the case and so the<BR>
books *utility* is undeminished.  I didn't buy it to collect, I<BR>
bought it to use! <g><BR>
<BR>
>If I acquired such a copy I would simply send it back to get a<BR>
>replacement.<BR>
<BR>
Well, if there were *missing* pages, I might do that, but having a<BR>
couple of extra isn't that big a deal.  With the reponses that came<BR>
from my post, I'm almost sorry I wrote anything at all.<BR>
<BR>
I'm still very glad I have the book.  However, if some Merchant<BR>
wants to engage in some speculative trade they can always contact me<BR>
off list and we'll engage in an opposed task of bargining. <eg><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:55:35 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Walt Smith [mailto:smithw@hartwick.edu]<BR>
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:28 PM<BR>
> To: 'TML'<BR>
> Subject: Re: Stuck Grav Vehicles<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> >> Or you simply need a method of cleaning the pipe.  Running the<BR>
> >> system while the grav tank is flying should be sufficient. <BR>
> ><BR>
> >Nope. The air won't be at all that high a pressure without the ground<BR>
> >providing back pressure, and the small bits that can start the<BR>
> >combustion may not just blow off.<BR>
> <BR>
> I bow to your wisdom, Leonard.  30th century technology will<BR>
> be unable to meet the challenge of cleaning a pipe. ;-)<BR>
> <BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
In any case, I for one would use the HP air to inflate some kind of<BR>
bladder underneath the hull, rather than forcing the air directly onto<BR>
the ground. Inflate the bladder, Grav vehicle rises a couple of cm,<BR>
activate grav field, deflate bladder, you now have a couple of cm<BR>
ordinary pressure air between the grav vehicle and the ground. Take-off<BR>
and move.<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:59:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: john michael bush <saxguy@u.washington.edu><BR>
Subject: sexual roles and alien societies<BR>
<BR>
The talk of sexual roles (the Dissent line) brought up a memory from my<BR>
anthropology class.  In India there is a religious group that is a<BR>
seperate "gender".  In class it was used to illustrate the difference<BR>
between gender and sex -- sex is a biological characteristic, gender is a<BR>
social one.  There is  a group of "males" in India who pose as<BR>
"females".  They are a religious group and fulfill several religious roles<BR>
in Indian society.  However, they are not simple transvestites.  They<BR>
speak very crudely, they dress in garb that is female, but very<BR>
provocative and would be unseemly on a real woman.  These "men" ritually<BR>
emasculate themselves (literally, physically), and hermaphrodites are<BR>
typically adopted by them and revered.<BR>
	The implications for the traveller universe are pretty wide<BR>
ranging.  To fill in the details for an alien, or even future human<BR>
society, perhaps sometimes it should be remembered that biological<BR>
apparatus does not equate to social gender.  For example, a free trader is<BR>
conducting deals with a strange society he had spent little time<BR>
researching, and commits a faux pas when he assumes a creature that is<BR>
obviously male is a "man", and ends up in a duel, or in prison.  Or<BR>
something.  Or maybe this is just a nonsensical mental wandering from an<BR>
overworked, overeducated college student. . . .<BR>
<BR>
john<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:59:18 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Legate<BR>
> Legion<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2000 09:21<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> From: Ben Aaronovitch <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >I'm from London.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Makes sense, doesn't it?  *weg*  Btw, you still working for the BBC?<BR>
><BR>
> >And before you say it, I'm no Francophile but<BR>
> >then I'm not allergic to them either.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Then, you sir must have a weak sense of smell.<BR>
><BR>
> >I just felt that it made it more interesting.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts & maybe<BR>
> colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the Earth.  I am<BR>
> sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It is a<BR>
> given.<BR>
<BR>
All opinion of course, but mine is that it is far more likely to be either<BR>
India or China.<BR>
<BR>
The US is already into it's decline, having burned itself out over the last<BR>
century  and the UK started declning long ago, and is approaching<BR>
rock-bottom. Both China and India have just begun to become world powers, so<BR>
will likely be hitting their peak about when the Singularity is due to hit,<BR>
which is when we're most likely to go interstellar...<BR>
<BR>
It's also possible that a revamped Russia willl be in a better position than<BR>
the US by then also.<BR>
<BR>
> Also considering that 2300 AD is set 300 years, IIRC, after Twilight<BR>
> 2000, France would too messed up to become a world power.<BR>
<BR>
France wasn't nuked in T2000. That was the whole point, the US, UK, Russia,<BR>
& China were.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:35:48 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
on 7/17/00 7:24 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> My first thought was "Der Besuch der alten Dame"[1] meets<BR>
> "Die lange lange Strasse lang"[2] meets "The Forever<BR>
> War,"[3] meets "We All Died at Breakaway Station."[4]<BR>
> <BR>
> [1] The old lady has been in so many accidents that the<BR>
> protagonist must ask, "bist Du denn alle Prothese?" (or<BR>
> something to that effect).<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, Glenn.  I'm pretty much limited to English, so if you want me to<BR>
comment, you'll have to translate.  This reminds me of reading "National<BR>
Review", with the Greek and Latin quotations all over the place and no<BR>
explanations.  I took French 20 years ago, OK?  I know it's awfully<BR>
provincial of me, but I just speak the one language (excluding geek-speak<BR>
and gun argot, which some have claimed as foreign tongues)<BR>
<BR>
Tod "mono-lingual" Glenn<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 00:41:33 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
on 7/17/00 5:28 PM, Charles Collin at charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One thing I've always wondered about the drop to 5.56 mm weapons:  Don't<BR>
> they give the enemy a lot more hard cover?  A good-sized tree will stop a<BR>
> 5.56 round, but not a 7.62 mm round, won't it?<BR>
> <BR>
> Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
Well, that's an iffy proposition.  The new M855 (SS109) 5.56mm round is a<BR>
pretty good penetrator.  I doubt that I'd trust a tree to provide cover<BR>
nowadays, anyway.  And 7.62 and larger rounds are not gone from the<BR>
battlefield.  There's going to be plenty of .308 machinegun fire to keep you<BR>
from missing that old M-14.<BR>
<BR>
A tree is a good minie ball stopper, BTW.  If you ever make it to the<BR>
Smithsonian, they have a nice tree from Gettysburg, or rather the stump that<BR>
was what was left.  Fire enough round and anything will give up the ghost.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:17:10 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: sexual roles and alien societies<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
john michael bush wrote :<BR>
<BR>
> 	The implications for the traveller universe are pretty wide<BR>
> ranging.  To fill in the details for an alien, or even future human<BR>
> society, perhaps sometimes it should be remembered that biological<BR>
> apparatus does not equate to social gender.  For example, a free trader is<BR>
> conducting deals with a strange society he had spent little time<BR>
> researching, and commits a faux pas when he assumes a creature that is<BR>
> obviously male is a "man", and ends up in a duel, or in prison.  Or<BR>
> something.  Or maybe this is just a nonsensical mental wandering from an<BR>
> overworked, overeducated college student. . . .<BR>
<BR>
This sort of thing already exists in canon, with most Aslan assuming that<BR>
any human technician or merchant is female, and that any warrior is a male.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:19:53 +0300<BR>
From: "Ken J. Kazinski" <kjkazinski@ksaits.com><BR>
Subject: Other<BR>
<BR>
I do belieive that is only a certain sect - I am currently working in<BR>
Saudi.  They do talk about the western influence on thier coutry being<BR>
bad.<BR>
<BR>
Kaz<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
The Muslims are very well aware that even though they believe they are<BR>
Right, other people don't-- otherwise they wouldn't call America the<BR>
Great<BR>
Satan.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 23:08:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was<BR>
>>Ditzie etc)<BR>
><BR>
>>Not likely. I expect that the Imperium will have something<BR>
>>like the "full faith and credence" clause of the US<BR>
>>Constitution. If you are validly married in one<BR>
>>jurisdiction, the others have to accept it, even if you<BR>
>>*couldn't* be legally married there.<BR>
><BR>
> No, I don't think the Imperium will have a "full faith and<BR>
> credit" requirement except as to matters directly affecting<BR>
> interstellar commerce.  Marriage is called a contract in<BR>
> modern American jurisprudence, but fundamentally it is not<BR>
> about commerce, but about the state sanctioning a<BR>
> relationship whose primary purpose is to create more<BR>
> citizens.  That doesn't have anything to do with<BR>
> interstellar commerce, and everything to do with local<BR>
> cultural and governmental autonomy, and the Imperium simply<BR>
> won't interefere with it. <BR>
<BR>
Actuallly, you are using a very *modern* view of marriage. Throughout<BR>
much of history, it's been a matter of determining who gets what<BR>
property. Inheritance and the like. And even now, it's far more a<BR>
matter of conveying various rights and privileges under the law than of<BR>
merely producing kids. <BR>
<BR>
> So if your marriage is valid on World A and not on World B,<BR>
> and you want to visit World B with the person(s) considered<BR>
> your spouse(s) on World A, you should check the treaty<BR>
> between the worlds to see if you have any problems.  You<BR>
> should also check with World B's consulate to World A and<BR>
> with World A's Foreign Office/State Department to see what<BR>
> sort of cultural problems (lynch mobs, spitting, stoning,<BR>
> harsh language, refusal to serve at restaurants, etc.) you<BR>
> may encounter on World B, even if World B has agreed not to<BR>
> prosecute or take other official action against visiting<BR>
> citizens of World A based on claimed World A marriages. <BR>
<BR>
Except the purpose of the Imperium is to *avoid* having to do so much<BR>
of that...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:31:09 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
The standard answer for mis bindings is:<BR>
<BR>
We had the bindery worker fired, and a reprimand was placed in the file of <BR>
his supervisor. Is that enough, or should we brand the cheeks of the <BR>
supervisor as well.<BR>
<BR>
For binding errors, we say, tell us and we'll replace the bad copy. We don't <BR>
want anyone to get a bad feeling for the product they paid good money for.<BR>
<BR>
And thanks to those who ordered; they were sent out the same day they arrived <BR>
from the printer.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Marc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 05:23:56 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/17/00 7:24 PM, Glenn Goffin at gmgoffin@yahoo.com wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> My first thought was "Der Besuch der alten Dame"[1] meets<BR>
>> "Die lange lange Strasse lang"[2] meets "The Forever<BR>
>> War,"[3] meets "We All Died at Breakaway Station."[4]<BR>
>> <BR>
>> [1] The old lady has been in so many accidents that the<BR>
>> protagonist must ask, "bist Du denn alle Prothese?" (or<BR>
>> something to that effect).<BR>
><BR>
> Sorry, Glenn.  I'm pretty much limited to English, so if you want me to<BR>
> comment, you'll have to translate.  This reminds me of reading "National<BR>
> Review", with the Greek and Latin quotations all over the place and no<BR>
> explanations.  I took French 20 years ago, OK?  I know it's awfully<BR>
> provincial of me, but I just speak the one language (excluding geek-speak<BR>
> and gun argot, which some have claimed as foreign tongues)<BR>
<BR>
well, I can puzzle of one important bit. <BR>
<BR>
"bist Du denn alle Prothese?" is almost certainly "are you all prosthetics?"<BR>
<BR>
The German *titles* I can't figure out. Not enough context.<BR>
<BR>
BTW I took French more like *30* years ago. But my mind retains trivia.<BR>
So my passing exposure to various languages sometimes let's me figure<BR>
out stuff. <BR>
<BR>
I've also been known to drive GMs nuts because I can reach out, grab<BR>
the right rule book, open it, flip a few pages and point at the<BR>
relevant obscure rule. <BR>
<BR>
That skill came in handy in tech support. :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:44:01 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: MT Err<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 17-Jul-00 10:30:46 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   what happend to all those erratas - is a list of complete GDW MT erratas<BR>
>    available somewhere ?<BR>
<BR>
ISTR there's a listing on the web someplace.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2778<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2779</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2779<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Non-Imperial Megacorporations<BR>
Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
Re: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Request<BR>
Declining societies (was RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszews ki )<BR>
Re: MT Err<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
Re: Striker questions<BR>
re:  What?<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
RE: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:05:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net><BR>
Subject: RE: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
> Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 6:28 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote<BR>
><BR>
> > >   fine - to make it Travellerish :<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >   The Galactica should be an 100 year old VS-13 to VS-15 of<BR>
> 100kdt size.<BR>
> > >   Crew is around 3000 people ( e.g. for VS-13 2 bridge, 99<BR>
> engineering,<BR>
> > >   22 maintenance, 129 gunner, 129 flight, 250 comanding officers,<BR>
> > >   61 stewards, 15 medics - plus 1230 people for 600 30dt fighters<BR>
> > >   and 10 100dt shuttles ) - The Galactica story fits perfectly into<BR>
> > >   Sylean core around 1200 imperial.<BR>
><BR>
> > There are indications that the Battlestars are *considerably*<BR>
> older than 100<BR>
> > years.<BR>
><BR>
> A BG episode which ends with a transmission of the first<BR>
> Solomani lunar landing (1969 AD or -2,569 Imperial) playing<BR>
> on a video screen unseen by any of the crew. If you wish to<BR>
> remain true to this bit of canon and wish to believe that<BR>
> it was an original broadcast which then traveled at the speed<BR>
> of light than the Galactica would have to be about 1,155 parsecs<BR>
> from Earth in Milieu 1200.<BR>
><BR>
> In this episode Apollo explains that when the Galactica was<BR>
> laid down "five hundred yahrens or so ago" its Astrogators<BR>
> used to go to the observation dome on the Galactica's highest<BR>
> dorsal point to take star sightings. IIRC the yahren has been<BR>
> established as being something close to a year in length by<BR>
> references to character ages. OTOH BG humans can live up to<BR>
> 200 yahrens and Adama is presumably over 100 yahrens old or he<BR>
> would not say things like "If I were a hundred yahrens younger."<BR>
> Thus either the yahren is significantly shorter than the year,<BR>
> the Colonials were genetically altered like the Vilani for<BR>
> significantly longer lives, anagathics technology is ubiquitous<BR>
> among the Colonists or some combination thereof.<BR>
><BR>
> If you want to place the Galactica anywhere within 200 parsecs<BR>
> of Terra than the story needs to take place before -1917 Imperial<BR>
> (200 * 3.261 = 652.2	1969 + 652 = 2621). If the BG story did not<BR>
> take place during the Rule of Man than it may be best to place<BR>
> it prior to -2,398 which would place it no farther from Earth<BR>
> than 52 parsecs or so. This however does not fit with BG's<BR>
> references to traveling between galaxies (A notion that I find to<BR>
> be utter felgercarb but that's another issue entirely).<BR>
><BR>
> Moreover I'm not sure how to reconcile BG's statement that Earth<BR>
> is a human colony with Trav's statement that Earth is the original<BR>
> human homeworld unless you declare one or both of these statements<BR>
> to be wrong. One possible reconciliation might be to suggest that<BR>
> the Colonials are a minor human race transported from Earth by<BR>
> the Ancients and that they've simply misunderstood the story over<BR>
> the last 300,00 years.<BR>
><BR>
> The Colonists home star system had _12_ inhabitable human colonies<BR>
> (and possibly more than just 12 if the Borellian Nomen (sp?)<BR>
> came from a different colony than the other colonials). Solar<BR>
> systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
> This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
> extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
> sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
> put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
> sun within the life zone.<BR>
><BR>
> Additionally I think Virus infested robots would probably shoot<BR>
> better than the Cylons do. :)<BR>
><BR>
> > Also, there are only something like 120 Vipers on board.<BR>
><BR>
> IIRC it was established that the Galactica did not start off<BR>
> the show with a full complement of Vipers due to combat losses<BR>
> against the Cylons in the premiere episode.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, a major policy change was required to allow female pilots (normally<BR>
only allowed to fly unarmed shuttles) to become viper pilots to replace the<BR>
masive losses of pilots in the first show.  There was at least one all<BR>
female squadron at one point in the show.<BR>
<BR>
The Galactica 'rag tag' fleet had some interesting capabilities also.  As a<BR>
hole they could produce enough food to feed themselves with 4 "agro ships."<BR>
There were tankers as well but most were either lost or convered as later in<BR>
the series the Galactic was the largest store of 'sollon' (spelling?) in the<BR>
fleet.  They could build new vipers.  Do R&D at least on some limited scale.<BR>
Build entirely new small ships of new designs.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say the 'fleet' had to include some very advanced factory ships and some<BR>
large freighters used to carry stores.  There is mentioned often that a<BR>
great many ships had to be converted to housing from bulk freighters and the<BR>
production and maintainence of life support systems was a maor problem.<BR>
<BR>
I do not recall what the total population of the fleet was but it was<BR>
mentioned several times and it was a very large number.  The fleet was<BR>
constantly gaining new ships during the first season.  The ships were<BR>
mercilessly converted to whatever was needed.  This caused some conflicts<BR>
that took place in the background as color or as an excuse for the main<BR>
characters to make enemies.<BR>
<BR>
The Battle Star also had some interesing features.  In one episode where a<BR>
second BS showed up that second BS was able to destroy two of the cylon<BR>
carrier ships (I forget their type name) with only it's own primary<BR>
batteries and two vipers for escorts.  It is the only time in the series<BR>
that you get to see what a BS can do in direct combat.  After seeing that<BR>
episode it is understandable why the cyclons do not want to bring their own<BR>
capital ships near the Galatica and rely so heavily on the cylon fighter<BR>
raids to wear down the fleet.  Those BS are deadly in close combat! but<BR>
apparently they have very limited ammo and their weapons are short ranged<BR>
compared to the range of the fighter craft used by both sides.<BR>
<BR>
Charles L.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 05:29:31 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> on 7/17/00 5:28 PM, Charles Collin at charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>> One thing I've always wondered about the drop to 5.56 mm weapons:  Don't<BR>
>> they give the enemy a lot more hard cover?  A good-sized tree will stop a<BR>
>> 5.56 round, but not a 7.62 mm round, won't it?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Charles C.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, that's an iffy proposition.  The new M855 (SS109) 5.56mm round is a<BR>
> pretty good penetrator.  I doubt that I'd trust a tree to provide cover<BR>
> nowadays, anyway.  And 7.62 and larger rounds are not gone from the<BR>
> battlefield.  There's going to be plenty of .308 machinegun fire to keep you<BR>
> from missing that old M-14.<BR>
><BR>
> A tree is a good minie ball stopper, BTW.  If you ever make it to the<BR>
> Smithsonian, they have a nice tree from Gettysburg, or rather the stump that<BR>
> was what was left.  Fire enough round and anything will give up the ghost.<BR>
<BR>
And keep in mind that non-humans may be able to use *much* heavier<BR>
weaponry. Consider the sort of recoil that can be absorbed by the<BR>
"lower shoulders" of a K'kree. Especially with 4 legs and all the body<BR>
mass for bracing. <BR>
<BR>
A K'kree may consider a 12.7 mm machinegun an overly light weapon!<BR>
<BR>
Picture a K'kree with a front mounted mini-gun. And then think about<BR>
just how much ammo he could carry in panniers slung across his body. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:20:44 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Non-Imperial Megacorporations<BR>
<BR>
Here is one of the older HIWiG documents that I thought others might find<BR>
useful (or not - I realize the info. is quite dated).<BR>
**********************************<BR>
<BR>
Title: Non-Imperial MegaCorporations                                         <BR>
HIWiG Document: 52.01<BR>
Date: Dec, 1989<BR>
Author: Clayton R. Bush<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
1. Sources for All Megacorporations:<BR>
      Merchant Prince<BR>
      Player's Manual, p. 37.<BR>
      Referee's Companion, pp. 40-41.<BR>
      Robots, pp. 15-17.<BR>
<BR>
2. Existence of the beast:<BR>
<BR>
Referee's Companion, p. 41:<BR>
            "It is difficult for a company to grow to the size of a<BR>
      megacorporation unless it has the protection of a suitably sized<BR>
      government.  Because the Imperium controlled space and an economy that<BR>
      could support megacorporations, they almost naturally sprang up.<BR>
           "Some of the interstellar empires that border have grown to the<BR>
      size that they can also support megacorporations.  Besides the 13<BR>
      Imperial megacorporations, there are another 13 megacorporations<BR>
      operating in the territories adjoining the Imperium.  In comparison, the<BR>
      largest of these non-Imperial megacorporations is perhaps median-sized<BR>
      when compared with an Imperial megacorporation; the smallest is smaller<BR>
      than any of the Imperial companies.        [Emphasis added. - CRB]<BR>
<BR>
3. Official outline<BR>
<BR>
                Official    Count +<BR>
                 Count       Named    Need names for         <BR>
      Vargr         0           0<BR>
      Aslan         4           4     #3 and #4<BR>
      Solomani      ?           1<BR>
      Zhodani       ?           2     One, if Menderes dropped.<BR>
      K'kree        ?           ?<BR>
      Hiver         5           5     Four (and rankings for all 5)<BR>
                 -----      -------<BR>
                  13          12<BR>
   HIWG proposed               1      Menderes (Julian Protectorate)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
4. Notes on the Megacorporations:<BR>
<BR>
MTA 1: Vargr and Vilani<BR>
<BR>
Vargr: There are no Vargr megacorporations.<BR>
<BR>
Vilani: The three megacorporations were Imperial, so don't fit here.<BR>
      Mike Mikesh proposes that the Menderes Corporation (in the Julian<BR>
Protectorate) is a megacorporation: if it sees publication in MTA 1 it is<BR>
official (and the K'kree have no megacorporation and Zhodani only two.)<BR>
      As a confederation of confederations, the Protectorate is more divided<BR>
than the Solomani Confederation.  (See below.)  I think Menderes was only a<BR>
sector-wide line: in acquiring the Vilani megacorporations' assets in Antares<BR>
Domain, it may become a megacorporation.<BR>
<BR>
MTA 2: Aslan and Solomani<BR>
<BR>
Aslan: <BR>
      Tlasayerlahel is the largest existing Aslan merchant company and "is one<BR>
of only four companies in Aslan space which merit megacorporation status."<BR>
      "The number two megacorporation in Aslan space is Reastirlao."<BR>
      #3:  ?      #4:  ?<BR>
<BR>
Solomani:<BR>
      "The sphere is rife with factionalism and regionalism, a fact which<BR>
makes the emergence of sphere-wide companies difficult.  Most Solomani<BR>
companies are sector-wide or smaller."<BR>
      Transstar is identified as a Megacorporation.<BR>
<BR>
MTA 3: Zhodani and Droyne<BR>
<BR>
Zhodani:<BR>
      There are no general comments for this race.<BR>
      Priantqlovr is identified as a megacorporation.<BR>
      Tliazhashal is "the largest Zhodani defense contractor, and also the<BR>
largest provider of equipment and civilian personnel for the Zhodani Core<BR>
expeditions." I assume it is a megacorporation. [Robots, p.17.]<BR>
<BR>
Droyne: There are no Droyne megacorporations.<BR>
<BR>
MTA 4: K'kree and Hiver<BR>
<BR>
K'kree:<BR>
      "K'kree tend to remain within the borders of the Two Thousand Worlds and<BR>
most trade and transport operations take place within the empire."  There is<BR>
no reference to any large K'Kree company.<BR>
      I propose that there are no K'Kree megacorporations. James Holden<BR>
agrees, noting K'kee undertake commerce at the direction of K'kree nobles.<BR>
<BR>
Hiver:<BR>
      "Star Patterns (Trading) is one of five Hiver megacorporations, and the<BR>
major Hiver trading partner with the Imperium."  Its rank is unknown.<BR>
      #2:  ?      #3:  ?      #4:  ?      #5:  ?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:23:57 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
Todd Glenn wrote:<BR>
> One can only wonder about wars involving the 3I, where medical <BR>
> technology has advanced to the point where almost any non-fatal wound <BR>
> can be treated to full recovery.  Wounded soldiers could be returned to <BR>
> combat over and over again.  One can only hope that physiological <BR>
> treatments have kept pace with 'conventional' medicine, else the psycho <BR>
> wards of the Imperium will no doubt be full of overused combat <BR>
> veterans. <BR>
<BR>
To this, add the availbility of Low Berths...sleeping soldiers don't<BR>
have to be fed or cleaned up after, don't have to be entertained,<BR>
don't fight, don't take up near as much space.  Take this to the<BR>
extreme, and you have soldiers who spend their entire military career <BR>
(after initial training) Fighting or Healing from Wounds.  No time to<BR>
process and cope with the last campaign before waking up to start<BR>
the next one, no down time at all.  Psychological treatments must be<BR>
very advanced indeed, but you may not want to be in the same room as<BR>
the "people" the psychologists create to survive under these<BR>
conditions.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:56:41 EDT<BR>
From: RBasler1@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/18/00 5:46:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
 Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
 <BR>
 Actuallly, you are using a very *modern* view of marriage. Throughout<BR>
 much of history, it's been a matter of determining who gets what<BR>
 property. Inheritance and the like. And even now, it's far more a<BR>
 matter of conveying various rights and privileges under the law than of<BR>
 merely producing kids. <BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
    In the first chapter of the text used in the 'Kinship and Social <BR>
Organization' class I took ages ago as an anthropology student, they <BR>
developed a definition of marriage that would be valid for all world <BR>
cultures.  It was kind of fun, actually; they started with a very <BR>
conventional, western definition, then showed a couple of examples that blew <BR>
it apart, modified it....blew it apart again.  There were some fascinating <BR>
marriages described.  One that sticks in mind was the african culture that <BR>
had a bride price so high that few men could afford it.  Two brothers or <BR>
friends would pool their resources and cattle to pay the family of the bride. <BR>
 She would then be married to both men.  Later on, if they were financially <BR>
successful and they could afford a second wife, another was brought into the <BR>
marriage, but instead of breaking apart into two pairs, they remained as a <BR>
unit of four.<BR>
    The final definition was something along the lines of "Marriage is a <BR>
legal and social contract between a woman and one or more individuals that <BR>
ensures that any children produced by that woman are given full legitimacy <BR>
and legal rights of inheritance."  There were societies where women could <BR>
marry women, but none where men could marry men (this book was obviously <BR>
written before the revising of laws in certain places like Canada and New <BR>
Hampshire <grin>)<BR>
    Note that in any society, a marriage might have other purposes in <BR>
addition to that one, but that was the only core definition that would fit <BR>
across the board.<BR>
<BR>
    Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:04:00 -0500<BR>
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com><BR>
Subject: Request<BR>
<BR>
Gentles,<BR>
<BR>
I need the opinions of one or more GURPS Traveller experts -- please<BR>
contact me off-list at lkw@io.com.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Loren Wiseman<BR>
     Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence<BR>
     Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society  http://jtas.sjgames.com/<BR>
     SJ Games<BR>
     lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/<BR>
     (512) 447-7866 VOX<BR>
     (512) 447-1144 FAX<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:17:52 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Declining societies (was RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszews ki )<BR>
<BR>
Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> The US is already into it's decline, having burned itself out over the <BR>
> last century<BR>
<BR>
Interesting opinion.  What evidence do you see that equates the<BR>
US with a burned out, declining country?<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: What are the signs that a society is on the way down?<BR>
3I Psychohistorians have been in a "look don't touch" mode<BR>
(officially, anyway) since the Psionic Suppressions fiasco,<BR>
but do they provide reports on the "health" of planetary<BR>
(and interplanetary) societies to the Imperial government?<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:22:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Err<BR>
<BR>
There is one.  I will see if I can find the URL for you.<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
>>> <GDWGAMES@aol.com> 07/18/00 05:44AM >>><BR>
In a message dated 17-Jul-00 10:30:46 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>   what happend to all those erratas - is a list of complete GDW MT erratas<BR>
>    available somewhere ?<BR>
<BR>
ISTR there's a listing on the web someplace.<BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:33:46 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
> To this, add the availbility of Low Berths...sleeping soldiers don't<BR>
> have to be fed or cleaned up after, don't have to be entertained,<BR>
> don't fight, don't take up near as much space.  Take this to the<BR>
> extreme, and you have soldiers who spend their entire military career <BR>
> (after initial training) Fighting or Healing from Wounds.  No time to<BR>
> process and cope with the last campaign before waking up to start<BR>
> the next one, no down time at all.  Psychological treatments must be<BR>
> very advanced indeed, but you may not want to be in the same room as<BR>
> the "people" the psychologists create to survive under these<BR>
> conditions.<BR>
<BR>
There's a novel that covers this territory entitled<BR>
"The Eternity Brigade," by Stephen Goldin (in the novel,<BR>
however, the technology of "storing people" eventually<BR>
evolves far beyond cryogenic suspension, and into matter<BR>
duplication).<BR>
                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:38:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
<BR>
Kaz asked:<BR>
>> Can someone please point me to a list where I can get<BR>
>>technical / striker questions answered?  <BR>
<BR>
You replied:<BR>
<BR>
>Remote launchers for MRLs ... I dont think there are <BR>
>explicit rules for it. <BR>
<BR>
See Striker Book 3, Design Sequence 4: Multiple Rocket<BR>
Launchers, section C. Remote MRLs provides explicit rules.<BR>
<BR>
>Autofire bonuses for MRLs .... Tell me, Kaz, do you work<BR>
>for Famile Spofulam ? I hadnt thought of an automatic<BR>
>rocket launcher designed for direct-fire.  Sounds like a<BR>
>job for High Energy Solutions. I guess in direct fire role<BR>
>they should get the same autofire bonuses as anything else<BR>
>(eg 20 rounds gets you +2/+1/0).<BR>
<BR>
An MRL has the same characteristics as a mortar.  My quick<BR>
review of the Striker design sequences does not indicate<BR>
any prohibition on direct fire by mortars.  Accordingly, an<BR>
MRL may conduct direct fire if it has direct fire fire<BR>
control.  Its rate of fire is its number of tubes.  See the<BR>
autofire bonus table.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:47:10 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  What?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
<BR>
>Sorry if it sounds like I am griping. <BR>
<BR>
It doesn't just sound like you are griping; you _are_<BR>
griping.  There's nothing wrong with griping in general,<BR>
and your gripe is quite legitimate.  So stop apologizing<BR>
before we get really mad at you.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:03:13 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
>To this, add the availbility of Low Berths...<<BR>
<BR>
Given the 1-in-12 death rate of low berths, I find it hard to accept their<BR>
use for major transport operations. (At least in CT.)<BR>
Or is this considered simply a construct for quick and dirty merchant<BR>
operations with military and colonization lower berths being superior?<BR>
Taking 8+% casualties before starting does not seem like a good way to<BR>
maintain morale, even among fanatics or the utterly desperate.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:23:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> >To this, add the availbility of Low Berths...<<BR>
><BR>
> Given the 1-in-12 death rate of low berths, I find it hard to accept their<BR>
> use for major transport operations. (At least in CT.)<BR>
> Or is this considered simply a construct for quick and dirty merchant<BR>
> operations with military and colonization lower berths being superior?<BR>
> Taking 8+% casualties before starting does not seem like a good way to<BR>
> maintain morale, even among fanatics or the utterly desperate.<BR>
><BR>
> Sam<BR>
<BR>
A definite problem.  Perhaps military low berths have better survival rates.<BR>
Consider:<BR>
1. All personnel are in top physical condition<BR>
2. Better equipment.  Military LBs may be significantly better because they<BR>
are seen a routine use items, rather than low cost or emergency transport.<BR>
3.  Trained 'low berth' specialists, as opposed to the ship's medic.<BR>
4. Regular, routine maintenance.  The military is typically much more anal<BR>
about PMC than civilians.  Particularly if, like parachute riggers, you make<BR>
the LB techs use the LBs they are responsible for, selecting their LB at<BR>
random.<BR>
<BR>
Cost of transportation of mass troops will make low berths attractive IF the<BR>
casualty rate is low enough.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, is it 1 in 12?  I thought it was 2 on 2D6, or 1 in 36 or 2.7% casualty<BR>
rate (still awfully high).  1-12 is pretty close to 'decimation', and most<BR>
modern armies would consider 8.3% casualties pretty 'bloody'.<BR>
<BR>
What is the current casualty rate for airborne operations?  I suggest that<BR>
this casualty rate would be acceptable for LB troop transport.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:38:57 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
<BR>
* Equipment and rules (draft v1.0)<BR>
i. Protective equipment<BR>
a. G-suits :- First devised for aviators in the TTL5 era to prevent<BR>
acceleration related loss of consciousness (G-LOC), these garments apply<BR>
positive pressure to the legs and abdomen to return blood to the heart.<BR>
Initially, they do not protect against the effects of -g's.<BR>
<BR>
More advanced suits (TTL8+) are able to apply negative pressure to the<BR>
lower limbs, and small amounts of positive/negative pressure to the<BR>
chest to assist in maintaining cardiac output. The latter effect is<BR>
achieved by mask ventilation - 'cuirass' style pumps are too bulky.<BR>
<BR>
TTL    Compensation    Mass/kg  Price/Cr<BR>
5      +2              6        5000<BR>
6      +3              5        3000<BR>
7      +4              4        2000<BR>
8      +5/-2           4        3000<BR>
9      +5/-3           3        5000<BR>
<BR>
G-suits can be fitted in vacc suits, combat armour and battledress.<BR>
<BR>
b. G-tanks<BR>
These rely on the fact that liquids are incompressible to protect the<BR>
occupant from acceleration. Up to 10G of protection is possible using<BR>
gaseous ventilation. Beyond this, the presence of gas in the lungs could<BR>
lead to barotrauma or damage to the heart, great vessels and diaphragm.<BR>
<BR>
Liquid ventilation is the only way to get around this problem.<BR>
Perflurocarbon liquids are available from TTL 6 which could deliver<BR>
enough oxygen to permit survival. There are problems with carbon dioxide<BR>
retention and an increase in the work of breathing.<BR>
Liquid ventilation enables G-tanks to provide up to 25G of compensation.<BR>
<BR>
To initiate and establish liquid ventilation :-<BR>
Difficult, Med, Edu<BR>
<BR>
Time taken is 30 minutes.<BR>
<BR>
To wean from liquid ventilation :-<BR>
Difficult, Med, subject's End<BR>
<BR>
The task can be performed every half an hour.<BR>
It takes a further two hours for the subject to cough all the liquid up<BR>
; all tasks are at +1 Difficulty level for 12 hours thereafter.<BR>
<BR>
G-tanks :-<BR>
TTL    Type           Volume/m3       Mass/t     Power/MW    Price/MCr<BR>
6      Passenger      5               2          0.001       0.1<BR>
6      Crew           6               2          0.001       0.5<BR>
<BR>
The volume figure allows for access, fluid pumps and reservoirs and the<BR>
necessary control electronics, cable space, etc. for the crew version.<BR>
<BR>
c. Inertial compensation<BR>
With the advent of gravitics, vehicles tend to be fitted with inertial<BR>
compensators to protect the occupants. While these are useful with<BR>
ordinary movement, the information in the first post shows that they are<BR>
of little use in crash situations.<BR>
<BR>
I propose that inertial compensators should be capable of providing 50X<BR>
their G-rating in crash protection. This leads to burnout of the<BR>
compensator system, but may shield personnel from damage.<BR>
<BR>
E.g. A TTL 10 air/raft crashes travelling at 300km/h (83.3m/s).<BR>
The occupants are in forward facing seats with full immobilisation, and<BR>
thus have 40g of deceleration protection. The compensators kick in,<BR>
providing another 50g worth.<BR>
<BR>
So 90m/sec of velocity shielding protects the crew. The air/raft is<BR>
completely written off, but the occupants can walk away from this<BR>
otherwise horrendous crash.<BR>
<BR>
d. Spin habitats and centripetal pseudogravity<BR>
In settings where gravitic tech is unavailable, simulating gravity with<BR>
circular motion is an alternative, to prevent the adverse effects of<BR>
microgravity on travellers.<BR>
<BR>
John Cramer has a good descriptive article on his website :- <BR>
http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/av_index_sub.html<BR>
<BR>
It's 'Alternate View' #18.<BR>
<BR>
ii. Coping with acceleration<BR>
Increasing acceleration is equivalent to wounds from other causes.<BR>
Wound levels are defined as :-<BR>
No characteristics at zero : Superficial (1D damage)<BR>
One char. at zero          : Minor (2D)<BR>
Two char. at zero          : Major (4D)<BR>
Three char. at zero        : Destroyed (6D)<BR>
<BR>
Steps :-<BR>
- - Estimate acceleration<BR>
- - Apply damage based on severity level in table<BR>
- - Apply other effects (cumulative).<BR>
- - Further wound checks if acceleration is still being experienced.<BR>
<BR>
a. Acute acceleration in head-foot axis, uncompensated :-<BR>
[Multiply g's X 3 for chest-to-back or back-to-chest acceleration].<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration* Wound Level   Effects<BR>
<=2           Superficial   Check for motion sickness[1]<BR>
<=2.5         Minor         Visual impairment (+/-g)[2]<BR>
<=4.5         Major         Consciousness check required<BR>
4.5+          Destroyed     Blackout (+g) ; redout (-g)[3]<BR>
<BR>
in addition to the usual wound checks :-<BR>
Wound Level     Needs treatment in   If not treated<BR>
Superficial     2D hours             hourly catastrophe check<BR>
Minor           1D X 10 minutes      cat. check every 15min<BR>
Major           2D minutes           cat. check every 5min<BR>
Destroyed       1D minutes           Death[4]<BR>
<BR>
* - absolute value of uncompensated g's.<BR>
[1] - 50% chance, unless modified by drugs (see below). -4 to Dex,<BR>
all tasks 1 difficulty level higher.<BR>
[2] - visual impairment, all tasks 1 difficulty level higher<BR>
[3] - blind, then unconscious within 5 seconds with blackout ; blind,<BR>
then delirious with redout (Int 0 for tasks).<BR>
[4] - (+/-g - hypovolaemic shock/cerebral oedema)<BR>
<BR>
Catastrophe check :- Difficult, Medical/First Aid,<BR>
patient's End. Failure - 1D more damage.<BR>
<BR>
Consciousness check :- (Difficulty), End<BR>
Wound Severity      Difficulty<BR>
Superficial         Easy<BR>
Minor               Average<BR>
Major               Difficult<BR>
Destroyed           Formidable<BR>
<BR>
* Recovery :-<BR>
Non-lethal damage is recovered at the rate of 1 point per hour.<BR>
Motion sickness :-<BR>
The chance of developing motion sickness can be reduced with drug<BR>
prophylaxis. +2 DM to 1D roll if any medications are used (sedatives,<BR>
etc.)<BR>
<BR>
Check daily to see if symptoms settle :-<BR>
Difficult, Zero-G or Environmental Combat, End<BR>
DMs :-<BR>
+1 if sedatives taken<BR>
+2 if specific treatments taken (e.g. scopolamine, cyclizine) TTL 8-<BR>
+3 if specific treatments taken TTL 9+<BR>
<BR>
If check fails, nausea and vertigo persists.<BR>
If check succeeds, task penalty is lifted and Dexterity returns to<BR>
normal.<BR>
 <BR>
Redout :- Consciousness check every 15 minutes based on current End to<BR>
check for resolution of delirium.<BR>
Blackout :- Consciousness check every 2 minutes. This task also applies<BR>
for return of visual acuity.<BR>
<BR>
b. Effects of large transients<BR>
For the purposes of these rules, all transient accelerations are assumed<BR>
to be 0.1 seconds or less in duration.<BR>
<BR>
Damage is resolved as above, but points incurred are wounds instead of<BR>
stun damage.<BR>
<BR>
To recap :-<BR>
[Velocities are included to ease calculation].<BR>
Acceleration from front to rear of vehicle :-<BR>
Forward seating (with shoulder belts)           40g   40m/s   140km/h<BR>
Forward seating (lapbelt only)                  27g   0.5m/s  1.8km/h<BR>
(maximum of 0.002 second)<BR>
Rearward seating                                80g   80m/s   280km/h<BR>
Sideward seating                                9g    9m/s    32.4km/h<BR>
<BR>
Acceleration along head to foot axis :-<BR>
Upward (=-g)                                    20g   20m/s   72km/h<BR>
Downward (=+g)                                  15g   15m/s   54km/h  <BR>
<BR>
For each increment of 20km/h speed, 3D more damage is sustained.<BR>
<BR>
ii. Chronic adaptation<BR>
<BR>
G's Attribute effects*<BR>
    First week       Next 3 weeks      Thereafter<BR>
0   -2 Str/Dex/End | -1 Str/End/week  |-1 Str/End per month for next 3<BR>
                   | +1 Dex           |months ; +2 to Dex<BR>
0.2 -1 Str/Dex/End | +1 Dex           |-1 Str/End per month for next 3<BR>
                   | -1 End/week      |months<BR>
0.5 -1 Str/End     | -1 Str/End/2 wks |-2 Str/End over 3 months<BR>
0.7 -1 Str         | -1 Str/End       |-1 Str, -2 End over 3 months<BR>
1.0 ---------------|   baseline       |-------------------------------<BR>
1.3                | -1 End, +1 Str   |+1 Str, +1 End over 3 months<BR>
1.5 -1 End         | -1 End, +1 Str   |+2 Str/End over 3 months<BR>
1.8 +1 Str/-1 Dex  | -2 End, +1 Str   |+1 Str/End/month for 3 months<BR>
    -1 End         | +1 Dex           |              <BR>
2.0 +1 Str/-1 Dex  | -3 End, +2 Str   |            "<BR>
    -1 End         | +1 Dex           |<BR>
2.2 +1 Str/-1 Dex  | -3 End, +2 Str   |+3 Str/+4 End over 3 months<BR>
    -1 End         | +1 Dex           |<BR>
2.4 +1 Str/-1 Dex  | -4 End, +2 Str   |+3 Str/+5 End/+1 Dex over 3 mths<BR>
    -1 End         |                  |<BR>
2.6 +1 Str/-2 Dex  | -4 End, +3 Str   |+4 Str/+5 End/+1 Dex over 3 mths<BR>
    -1 End         |                  |<BR>
2.8 +1 Str/-2 Dex  | -5 End, +3 Str   |              "<BR>
    -1 End         |                  |<BR>
<BR>
* for low g, if not undertaking exercise/drug regime ; for high g, if<BR>
performing usual daily activities.<BR>
<BR>
To resist attribute loss (low gravity) :-<BR>
Difficult, (target attribute)<BR>
<BR>
DMs :-<BR>
+2 if resistive exercise regime is adhered to (3+ hours/day at zero G)<BR>
+1 for calcium and iron enriched diet, fluid loading<BR>
+1 if steroids/growth hormone + erythropoietin used<BR>
+2 if TTL 9 regrowth agents used<BR>
+3 if TTL 12 regrowth agents used<BR>
<BR>
High gravity attribute losses can be neutralised with High-G or<BR>
Environmental Combat skill (Dex), by lying still and doing very little<BR>
(Str/End), or by using.<BR>
<BR>
Attribute changes take 6 months to return to baseline in the<BR>
absence of exercise/drugs, etc.<BR>
<BR>
If any attribute drops to zero over the acclimation period, a crisis<BR>
has occurred, and medical attention should be sought.<BR>
<BR>
Effects on aging :-<BR>
G          Aging Roll DM<BR>
< 0.2      +2<BR>
< 0.5      +1<BR>
> 1.2      -1<BR>
> 1.5      -2<BR>
> 1.8      -3<BR>
<BR>
* Additional notes<BR>
Work has been recently published by a French group that suggests that<BR>
the proteins that make up the 'skeleton' of cells may require gravity to<BR>
orient themselves. This has very important effects on cell division.<BR>
Infertility and an increased rate of malignancies may be a long-term<BR>
consequence of exposure to microgravity. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2779<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2780<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: T2000 or Trav 2300?<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tollerance<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Hexagons<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
RE: Declining societies (long)<BR>
Re : Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
The Llellewyoly<BR>
RE: DF Mortars (was: Striker questions)<BR>
RE: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
Re: Hexagons<BR>
Re: Hexagons<BR>
Re : Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
re:  Declining societies <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
re: What?<BR>
Re: MT Err<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:47:58 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: T2000 or Trav 2300?<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
>Subject: What?<BR>
><BR>
>> Oddly enough, the French weren't THAT treacherous with their refusal to<BR>
>> fight.<BR>
><BR>
>Is this Traveller 2300 or Twilight 2000? We all forget to retitle the posts<BR>
>but could we all try to put new titles on when the subject of the thread<BR>
>changes please? I just got lost.<BR>
<BR>
	In a way, it is both - Twilight2000  is part of the past history of<BR>
Trav2300, in the same way that the game Imperium is part of the back history<BR>
of CT/MT/etc.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- --------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Back at work....but they still don't tell me what to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:59:00 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tollerance<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>And keep in mind that non-humans may be able to use *much* heavier<BR>
>weaponry. Consider the sort of recoil that can be absorbed by the<BR>
>"lower shoulders" of a K'kree. Especially with 4 legs and all the body<BR>
>mass for bracing.<BR>
><BR>
>A K'kree may consider a 12.7 mm machinegun an overly light weapon!<BR>
><BR>
>Picture a K'kree with a front mounted mini-gun. And then think about<BR>
>just how much ammo he could carry in panniers slung across his body.<BR>
<BR>
	Oh gods, let's not...those centaurs give me nightmares enough already.<BR>
<BR>
	I am reminded of Niven/Pournell's book _Footfall_; the aliens are big and<BR>
bulky like K'kree on steroids, and the one time I recall a human using of of<BR>
their automatic rifles, he had to brace the butt against a bulkhead to keep<BR>
from getting killed by the recoil.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they just don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:21:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
> And, right now, in the case of a major landwar in Europe, one of the plans<BR>
> that the US & UK have worked up, is one that includes the French as the<BR>
> agressor nation.  <BR>
<BR>
Right, I'm going to have to ask for a source on that one, please.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:15:08 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote :-<BR>
> > Muscle cross-sectional area falls by up to 25% within 5 days, leading<BR>
> > to a proportionate decrease in strength.<BR>
Oops. The stuff quoted above is actually Mir/Shuttle data.<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote :-<BR>
> How about vulnerability to heat induced loss of fluid (I can never<BR>
> remember which of the "heat xxxx" names goes with low fluid).<BR>
<BR>
Yep. Thermal stresses are less well tolerated, due to the diminished<BR>
reserve.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn and Glenn Goffin wrote :-<BR>
> > How about 101 Medical Situations and Treatments?  The book<BR>
> > could even be a diagnostic guide, kind of like a field<BR>
> > guide to the flowers.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Glenn<BR>
> <BR>
> If we could persuade Robert to do this, I for one, would buy it.  There is<BR>
> typical a lot of material for weapons with most RPGs, but not much on the<BR>
> other side (medical).<BR>
<BR>
Thanks ; I'll post it to the web. Note that all these posts are drafts.<BR>
I want suggestions on how to tweak rule mechanics to prevent play<BR>
getting too bogged down.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
"The Star Trigger : Super-weapon or botched FTL communications system?"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:26:45 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote :-<BR>
> > Wounded soldiers could be returned to combat over and over<BR>
> >again.  One can only hope that physiological treatments have kept pace with<BR>
> >'conventional' medicine, else the psycho wards of the Imperium will no doubt<BR>
> >be full of overused combat veterans.<BR>
<BR>
Psychiatry does keep up ; more selective psychotropics, plus more<BR>
experience in when to use cognitive-behavioural therapies, work very<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
> a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
> a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
> at a hospital.<BR>
Doesn't GT have something about 'reanimation', like CT/MT/T4?<BR>
<BR>
I tend to use :-<BR>
Reanimation is a Formidable Medical, Edu task (co-operative OK).<BR>
+1 difficulty level if fast drug used instead of low berthing.<BR>
<BR>
This is available at TTL 13+ :-<BR>
Newly dead persons can be revived with a combination of nanomachine<BR>
based cell stabilisation and repair, aggressive nutrition and growth<BR>
quickening. The only requirement is an intact brain and brainstem.<BR>
<BR>
Brain transplantation and reversing radiation-induced cerebrovascular<BR>
syndrome is the big medical breakthrough of TTL 15.<BR>
Naturally there can be significant memory/Int/Edu deficits following<BR>
this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:33:08 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:31:48<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
At 04:14 PM 7/17/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Heck, until recently, the age of consent in a few parts of the US was<BR>
>as low as 13.<BR>
<BR>
In the Great State of Massachusetts, the allowable age for marriage, with<BR>
parental consent is 14 for boys, *12* for girls.  Mississippi allows 15<BR>
year old girls to marry without parental consent.<BR>
<BR>
Oddly, Puerto Rico sets the age of marriage at 21.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:36:42 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Declining societies (long)<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
> > The US is already into it's decline, having burned itself<BR>
> > out over the last century<BR>
> <BR>
> Interesting opinion.  What evidence do you see that equates<BR>
> the US with a burned out, declining country?<BR>
<BR>
I may have an answer of sorts to this.  A couple of years  ago  I<BR>
was involved in a net based RPG  design  project.  The  issue  of<BR>
long term US survival prompted me to write a sociology essay  for<BR>
the group.  As it is not  ment  for  wide  circulation  I  lifted<BR>
sections of various sociology texts verbatim ... I do not believe<BR>
this is plagerism as I am not trying to pass off  another's  work<BR>
as my own.  A segment of that essay is presented here:<BR>
<BR>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<BR>
<BR>
The world political geography has, until recently, been dominated<BR>
by the two superpowers (the USA and USSR).  These two superpowers<BR>
provided the context in which other nations adopted their foreign<BR>
policies and pursued  economic  objectives.  However,  in  recent<BR>
years this bipolar structure has changed ... the global dichotomy<BR>
with  its  attendant  allies  and  satellites  is  breaking   up.<BR>
Sometimes this change  has  been  barely  perceptible,  sometimes<BR>
events have moved very quickly.  The general picture  is  of  the<BR>
complete collapse of the USSR, the relative decline  of  the  USA<BR>
and the emergence of new centers of power.<BR>
<BR>
If we look  through  the  historical  record  we  find  that  all<BR>
superpowers have two characteristics: they legitimise their power<BR>
with an ideology; and they don't last forever ...<BR>
<BR>
Modelski (1983, 1987) identified a series  of  long  cycles  from<BR>
1494 to the present. Each cycle consists of three phases:<BR>
<BR>
1) From a generation of global  conflict  one  state  emerges  as<BR>
   dominant.  It becomes a  superpower  able  to  arrange  global<BR>
   political and economic order to its advantage.<BR>
 <BR>
2) Other states grow in power  and  challenge  this  order.  Even<BR>
   though  one  state  may  still  dominate  the  world   becomes<BR>
   multipolar.<BR>
 <BR>
3) The lull before the storm: the dominant superpower  begins  to<BR>
   weaken and challengers gain confidence before  mounting  their<BR>
   claim for dominance.  Then repeat the cycle.<BR>
<BR>
Why do superpowers decline?  Paul Kennedy (1987)  points  to  the<BR>
phenomenon he called 'imperial overstretch'.  A state's  military<BR>
and  economic  strength  gains  it  the  dominance  to  become  a<BR>
superpower.  This position becomes increasingly untenable in  the<BR>
second and third phases of the Modelski cycle as more and more of<BR>
the state's expenditure is devoted to maintaining power over real<BR>
and imagined enemies.  Eventually  these  'imperial'  commitments<BR>
undercut the economic strengths of  the  state  and  the  initial<BR>
basis of power is weakened.  Henry Kissinger has dated the end of<BR>
the bipolar world as 1972 ... at this time the USA had  1,000,000<BR>
soldiers in  30  countries,  5  regional  alliances,  42  defense<BR>
treaties, membership in  53  international  bodies  and  provided<BR>
economic aid to over 100 countries.  Gee, sounds like overstretch<BR>
to me!<BR>
<BR>
Let us examine this in greater detail.  The end of  WW2  saw  the<BR>
USA emerge as the richest and most powerful nation on the planet.<BR>
Subsequent policy was based on  maintaining  this  position.  The<BR>
most important characteristic of post-war USA policy has been the<BR>
essential oneness of economic, political and security  interests.<BR>
Economic goals, political aims and strategic considerations  were<BR>
fused into an essential unity in USA policy-making.  The USA  has<BR>
a key role in the world economy and is intimately associated with<BR>
overseas economies, which it needs for supplies of raw materials,<BR>
as sites for capital investment and as markets  for  agricultural<BR>
and industrial produce.  Foreign-policy objectives are  primarily<BR>
aimed at maintaining and servicing these links.  To this end  the<BR>
Bretton Woods conference in 1944 created free-trading  agreements<BR>
(allowing the USA access to British home  and  colonial  markets)<BR>
and the international organisations  of  the  IMF  (International<BR>
Monetary Fund) and the World Bank.  Since voting rights in  these<BR>
organisations'  committees  were  in  proportion   to   financial<BR>
contribution  and  because  the  USA  was  the   largest   single<BR>
contributor, it effectively controlled these institutions.  Post-<BR>
war economic growth was to be financed and controlled by the USA.<BR>
This is phase 1 of the Modelski cycle.<BR>
<BR>
But remember the other characteristic of superpowers: the actions<BR>
of superpowers are codified in geopolitical strategies which  try<BR>
to legitmise their international  role.  In  the  16th  and  17th<BR>
centuries Spain saw itself as the bearer of Christian  virtue,  a<BR>
beacon of Catholic  light  in  a  pagan  darkness.  In  the  19th<BR>
century the British Empire clothed its world view in terms  of  a<BR>
civilising mission.  By the mid-20th century the USA  saw  itself<BR>
as the world's policeman  saving  countries  from  the  evils  of<BR>
communism, while the USSR had the ideology of Marxism-Leninism to<BR>
give credence to its self-image as  the  torch-bearer  for  world<BR>
socialism.<BR>
<BR>
Empires tend to come in pairs; they struggle and  vie  with  each<BR>
other for domination.  Athens and Sparta, Rome and Carthage,  the<BR>
USA  and  the  USSR;  the  bipolarities  continue   through   the<BR>
centuries.  An essential element in their relationship  is  their<BR>
denigration of each  other.  The  competitor  becomes  the  'evil<BR>
other', the source of disorder and unrest, a country populated by<BR>
demons and devils.  In the rhetoric of the cold war the  USA  saw<BR>
the USSR as a menace to peace and  world  harmony,  hell-bent  on<BR>
world domination.  The Soviets, in contrast, saw an enemy  empire<BR>
which had military bases all round the world, which had used  the<BR>
atomic bomb on innocent civilians, which wanted to destroy  their<BR>
society.  Opinions were polarised; it was a  case  of  forces  of<BR>
good against the power of darkness.  The ideologies fed off  each<BR>
other, they needed each other to  provide  an  enemy,  an  easily<BR>
identifiable source of trouble.  The USA could blame the USSR for<BR>
social unrest around the world, the USSR could see  the  hand  of<BR>
the USA whenever the population  in  their  satellite  states  of<BR>
Eastern Europe wanted more independance.  There was  a  symmetry.<BR>
The CIA could see the KGB at  work,  the  KGB  was  sure  of  CIA<BR>
involvement.  Military build-up in the  USA  led  to  a  military<BR>
build-up in the USSR, which led the  Pentagon  to  ask  for  more<BR>
money, which in turn led the generals in the Red Army  to  demand<BR>
more military hardware.<BR>
<BR>
    "The American Empire which, like  most  empires,  was  as<BR>
    much an empire in men's minds as an empire over palm  and<BR>
    pine, reposed in the Old World upon two pillars.  The one<BR>
    pillar was the proposition that  Soviet  Russia  and  its<BR>
    East European allies were  bent  upon  the  invasion  and<BR>
    conquest of Western  Europe.  The  twin  pillar  was  the<BR>
    proposition that the invasion had been averted and  still<BR>
    continued to be averted,  by  the  determination  of  the<BR>
    United States  to  react  to  it  by  committing  nuclear<BR>
    suicide.  Considering that both propositions are contrary<BR>
    to reason and observation, it is remarkable that the  two<BR>
    columns remained in place for close upon 40 years  before<BR>
    collapsing.  But that is something apt  to  happen  where<BR>
    there  is  wide-spread  political  vested   interest   in<BR>
    suspending incredulity." --- Enoch Powell, 1988<BR>
<BR>
So in it's superpower phase the USA justififed  it's  actions  as<BR>
opposition to an evil empire (as Reagan  called  it).  But  today<BR>
things have changed.<BR>
<BR>
Racked by economic difficulties, which made it no longer able  to<BR>
sustain  a  global  military  presence,  and  riven  by  internal<BR>
dissensions, which made political consensus impossible, the  USSR<BR>
was no longer a superpower able to compete with the USA.  As  the<BR>
loosening of political repression opened up a host of centrifugal<BR>
forces and the ethnic mosaic finally began to unravel,  the  USSR<BR>
collapsed.  The old bipolar structure  which  had  dominated  the<BR>
post 1945 world was, by 1990, a thing of the past  (and  with  it<BR>
went the legitimacy of a huge military-industrial complex).  This<BR>
is phase 2 of the Modelski cycle.<BR>
<BR>
The decline of the USSR means that  the  USA  is  the  undisputed<BR>
military power in the world.  Its global reach  is  unmatched  by<BR>
any other single country.  But while the USA retains its dominant<BR>
military position it no longer  has  undisputed  economic  power.<BR>
The rise of Japan, the development of Germany,  as  well  as  the<BR>
competition from the EU, have all made inroads into the  domestic<BR>
and foreign markets of the USA.  And this  at  a  time  when  the<BR>
federal deficit, caused  by  'imperial'  commitments,  is  at  an<BR>
astronomical level.<BR>
<BR>
Worse, Europe is moving towards a unified environment, instead of<BR>
just being a playground for the superpowers.  Such an environment<BR>
fosters  a  degree   of   protectionism   leading   to   economic<BR>
isolationism.  Many economists have identified this as a  partial<BR>
disintegration of the world economy (by 'disintegration' I do not<BR>
mean destructive, merely dis-integration).  The existence of  the<BR>
NAFTA agreement can be seen as a reaction to this disintegration,<BR>
it is a "Fortress North  America"  in  response  to  a  "Fortress<BR>
Europe".<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
    "Of course the Americans have a  big  problem  here.  The<BR>
    moment we cease to think  about  the  USSR  as  the  evil<BR>
    empire, we have to think that  the  enemy  is  elsewhere,<BR>
    possibly even in ourselves." --- Norman Mailer, 1987<BR>
<BR>
Indeed  we  have  already  glimpsed  the  explosive  release   of<BR>
inhibitions in American society, not in the  Oklahoma  City  bomb<BR>
(which was the result of an  individual's  action),  but  in  the<BR>
general collapse of law  and  order  following  the  Rodney  King<BR>
incident.  The anti-racisim backlash was  relativly  short-lived,<BR>
the bulk of the  disorder  was  unconnected  in  so  far  as  any<BR>
justification was concerned.  We were able to  witness  a  micro-<BR>
Yugoslavia in an American inner city environment.<BR>
<BR>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<BR>
<BR>
Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
will end by the end of 2000.  I find it bazarre how many American<BR>
economic pundits seem to believe the American economy has  become<BR>
some sort of economic perpetual motion  machine:  watch  for  the<BR>
stock-market panic as the normal business cycle reasserts itself!<BR>
There are also an increasing number of double-income once-middle-<BR>
class  families  now  receiving  food  aid  in  the  US  ...   as<BR>
technology-driven economy is leaving people without key skills in<BR>
dead-end, low-wage jobs.  Thus the current state of affairs  does<BR>
seem to be a temporary blip in the cycle.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: (Yes there is one)  If Modelski is right then the 3I must<BR>
go through such a cycle, too.  I  suspect  that  in  general  the<BR>
Zhodani would form the 'evil other' to the 3I.  But after the 4FW<BR>
and 5FW  the  Zhodani  threat  would  diminish  ...  and  as  the<BR>
Rebellion timeline showed the  3I  is  now  dangerously  unstable<BR>
internally: the 3I becomes multipolar from within.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:33:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Oops!<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> High gravity attribute losses can be neutralised with High-G or<BR>
> Environmental Combat skill (Dex), by lying still and doing very little<BR>
> (Str/End), or by using.<BR>
<BR>
This should read :-<BR>
> High gravity attribute losses can be neutralised with High-G or<BR>
> Environmental Combat skill (Dex), by lying still and doing very little<BR>
> (Str/End), or by using G-suits.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:41:13 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: The Llellewyoly<BR>
<BR>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
does anyone have more information on this race than what is<BR>
in GT:SM?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:43:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: DF Mortars (was: Striker questions)<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=14><BIG><BIG><BIG><BR>
><BR>
>  My quick<BR>
>review of the Striker design sequences does not indicate<BR>
>any prohibition on direct fire by mortars.  Accordingly, an<BR>
>MRL may conduct direct fire if it has direct fire fire<BR>
>control.<BR>
<BR>
	In our world, there is a precedent for this.  The Germans in WWI had a<BR>
light mortar (7.7mm leichte minenwerfer) that was normally supplied with a<BR>
heavy base plate, but later in the war they developed a relatively light<BR>
(yeah, right  >_<  ) base with a trail (like a small atrillery piece) to<BR>
allow it to be used for direct fire.  This could be pulled forward during an<BR>
assault to knock out allied strongpoints and MG positions (prepared<BR>
positions often had ungodly overhead protection due to the large amount of<BR>
indirect fire artillery used).  In our TL8, these were pretty much<BR>
superceded by things like the AT4 and the RAW rocket which can be fired from<BR>
the front of an M-16.  Once reliable rocket motors come into use, it is<BR>
lighter to have the warhead propel itself, rather than having to lug around<BR>
a heavy projector.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:46:53 +0100<BR>
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
> > Heck, until recently, the age of consent in a few parts of<BR>
> > the US was as low as 13.<BR>
> <BR>
> In the Great State of Massachusetts, the allowable age for<BR>
> marriage, with parental consent is 14 for boys, *12* for girls.<BR>
> Mississippi allows 15 year old girls to marry without parental<BR>
> consent.<BR>
> <BR>
> Oddly, Puerto Rico sets the age of marriage at 21.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC New York state has a rule on the  age  *difference*  between<BR>
married partners even if both are individuslly above the  age  of<BR>
consent.  There was a case last year (?) where a visiting  tennis<BR>
champion was not allowed to share a hotel room with  her  husband<BR>
while in NY state.<BR>
<BR>
Regards PLST<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:51:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
> having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
> experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
With what language?<BR>
For a hexagon with a side length of one, which is placed within a box, with the flat side down, the six corners are (X,Y): (0,0.866), (0.5,1.732), (1.5,1.732),<BR>
(2,0.866), (1.5,0), (0.5,0).  You can create an acceptable approximation with corners at (0,7),(4,14),(12,14),(16,7),(12,0),(4,0).<BR>
<BR>
My maps actually use corners at (0,9),(6,18),(18,18),(24,9),(18,0),(6,0), which is somewhat flattened, but that's still readable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:51:35 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
> having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
> experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
With what language?<BR>
For a hexagon with a side length of one, which is placed within a box, with the flat side down, the six corners are (X,Y): (0,0.866), (0.5,1.732), (1.5,1.732),<BR>
(2,0.866), (1.5,0), (0.5,0).  You can create an acceptable approximation with corners at (0,7),(4,14),(12,14),(16,7),(12,0),(4,0).<BR>
<BR>
My maps actually use corners at (0,9),(6,18),(18,18),(24,9),(18,0),(6,0), which is somewhat flattened, but that's still readable.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:51:55 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 3, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Revised table : earlier version too generous at upper end!<BR>
<BR>
G's Attribute effects<BR>
    First week       Next 3 weeks      Thereafter<BR>
0   -2 Str/Dex/End | -1 Str/End/week  |-1 Str/End per month for next 3<BR>
                   | +1 Dex           |months ; +2 to Dex<BR>
0.2 -1 Str/Dex/End | +1 Dex           |-1 Str/End per month for next 3<BR>
                   | -1 End/week      |months<BR>
0.5 -1 Str/End     | -1 Str/End/2 wks |-2 Str/End over 3 months<BR>
0.7 -1 Str         | -1 Str/End       |-1 Str, -2 End over 3 months<BR>
1.0 ---------------|   baseline       |-------------------------------<BR>
1.3                | -1 End           |+1 Str, +1 End over 3 months<BR>
1.5 -1 End         |      "           |+2 Str/End over 3 months<BR>
1.8 -1 Dex/-1 End  | -2 End, +1 Str,  |+1 Str/End/month for 3 months<BR>
                   | +1 Dex           |              <BR>
2.0       "        | -3 End, +1 Str,  |            "<BR>
                   | +1 Dex           |<BR>
2.2       "        | -3 End, +1 Str,  |+3 Str/+4 End over 3 months<BR>
                   | +1 Dex           |<BR>
2.4       "        | -4 End, +2 Str   |            "<BR>
2.6 -2 Dex/-1 End  | -4 End, +2 Str   |+3 Str/+4 End/+1 Dex over 3 mths<BR>
2.8       "        | -5 End, +2 Str   |            "<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:58:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Declining societies <BR>
<BR>
>From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
>Subject: Declining societies (was RE: Traveller attack and<BR>
>James Maliszews ki )<BR>
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>> The US is already into it's decline, having burned<BR>
>>itself out over the last century<BR>
>Interesting opinion.  What evidence do you see that<BR>
>equates the US with a burned out, declining country?<BR>
<BR>
Syndication of Three's Company.<BR>
High Neilsen ratings for syndicated episodes of Three's<BR>
Company.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:40:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2763<BR>
<BR>
At 03:00 PM 7/18/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>It is now not uncommon to see Vargr Penguiners, with their hooded birds on<BR>
>their wrists, at Brubecks franchises throughout the Spinward Marches. <BR>
>Brubecks are checking their stock for contamination.<BR>
<BR>
ROTFLMAO!!!  Keyboard Kill!!!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse or Glenn.. I *need* a picture of this!!<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 12:11:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
> 	I am reminded of Niven/Pournell's book _Footfall_; the<BR>
> aliens are big and<BR>
> bulky like K'kree on steroids, and the one time I recall a human<BR>
> using of of<BR>
> their automatic rifles, he had to brace the butt against a<BR>
> bulkhead to keep<BR>
> from getting killed by the recoil.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Weren't the aliens sort of elephant like?  Talk about recoil tolerance.  Of<BR>
cause, the .600 nitro express or .577 tyrannosaurus generate some hefty<BR>
recoil, and have been used by any number of professional hunters for<BR>
dangerous game in close cover.  IIRC, the Tyrannosaurus generates something<BR>
like 11,300 ft-lbs (15,320 Joules).  Of course it does have 3 mercury recoil<BR>
reducers.<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm.  How do we do in T4 land?  Assume ideal barrel length (I don't have<BR>
FFS2 handy, so I'll fix this later) a 10 lb rifle doing SQRT(15320)/10.5 D<BR>
damage = 11.8, call it 12D damage (how do we handle damage fractions<BR>
anyway?).  BD soaks up 8D damage, so the 'driver' take 4D (3D with shoot<BR>
through).  BD wearing merc could be in trouble against TL7 big game hunter<BR>
with .577 tyrannosaurus.  The BG hunter will be vulnerable to all kinds of<BR>
nasty goodies the mercs will have, but our BGH will be able to keep the<BR>
mercs from getting too cocky fighting 'low tech' adversaries.<BR>
<BR>
A simple solution would be to use 'soft recoil' systems.  These can make<BR>
shooting the big .50BMG tolerable by an average shooter.  Given slightly<BR>
higher tech than present, it is easy to extrapolate a high energy KE weapon<BR>
that utilizes 'soft recoil' and still retains good accuracy without the<BR>
necessity of a tripod or other stable weapons mount (i.e. man portable).<BR>
<BR>
Recoil is as much a perceived effect as a 'real' one.  I shoot an 8.5 lb<BR>
.458 win mag all the time with little difficulty (I'm 5'10 and average<BR>
build).  I've had big burly friends complain that the recoil was brutal.  My<BR>
wife is 5'5" and small and describes the recoil unpleasant, but not<BR>
intolerable.<BR>
<BR>
There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
(915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4 damage<BR>
is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that can kill<BR>
battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
<BR>
(FFS2 experts, please correct my math if I've made a grievous error)<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, just some musings on big bore stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Tod "cordite" glenn<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:13:34 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: What?<BR>
<BR>
At 8:44 -0400 18/7/00, What? wrote:<BR>
>Is this Traveller 2300 or Twilight 2000? We all forget to retitle the posts<BR>
>but could we all try to put new titles on when the subject of the thread<BR>
>changes please? I just got lost. Sorry if it sounds like I am griping. All<BR>
>the best,<BR>
<BR>
T2000 and 2300 share the same history. So it could be either ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:25:26 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: MT Err<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:44:01 EDT<BR>
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>In a message dated 17-Jul-00 10:30:46 PM Central Daylight Time,<BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>   what happend to all those erratas - is a list of complete GDW MT<BR>
erratas<BR>
>>    available somewhere ?<BR>
><BR>
>ISTR there's a listing on the web someplace.<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
I don't know where I got them. Maybe from the archive site from this list.<BR>
If you can't find them on the web e-mail me privately and I'll send you<BR>
copies.<BR>
<BR>
daveshayn@msn.com<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:42:02 GMT<BR>
From: stephen@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>To put it another way, the local law can set limits on *getting*<BR>
>married. Not on *being* married. <BR>
<BR>
I would have thought that the local law would be free to set any<BR>
limits it liked within its own boundaries, and the only effect of<BR>
more-than-usually-repressive laws would be to get the world an Amber<BR>
Zone classification.<BR>
<BR>
Unless somebody could convince the Imperial authorities that a<BR>
particular world's marriage laws amounted to chattel slavery, of<BR>
course (not impossible, I would have thought, given some of the<BR>
systems once found on Terra).<BR>
<BR>
The other point to consider here is that even if a world has<BR>
especially restrictive laws/customs regarding sexual morality, these<BR>
will presumably not apply once you cross the Extrality Line into the<BR>
starport.  That might explain why so many startowns have such sleazy<BR>
reputations - many could have been set up to offer *locals* all the<BR>
pleasures which were literally illegal outside the starport...<BR>
Another aspect of this would be that many people whose own sexuality<BR>
didn't meet the norm prescribed by their culture (whatever that might<BR>
be) would be keen to get jobs working at the starport, especially if<BR>
the job came with on-site accommodation.  Something to think about<BR>
next time your players start an adventure "sitting in a starport<BR>
bar..."  Of course, all this means that the local<BR>
governmental/religious/cultural leaders will be constantly denouncing<BR>
the starport as a hotbed of vice and depravity, and organising<BR>
blockades, boycotts, graffitti, harrassment, terrorism...<BR>
<BR>
Stephen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2780<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2781<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
Re: Llellewyloly<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Hexagons<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: Hexagons<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker Questions<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
RE: Declining societies (long)<BR>
Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:00:06 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
The Great Peguined One scribed:<BR>
>At 04:14 PM 7/17/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
> >Heck, until recently, the age of consent in a few parts of the US was<BR>
> >as low as 13.<BR>
>In the Great State of Massachusetts, the allowable age for marriage, with<BR>
>parental consent is 14 for boys, *12* for girls.  Mississippi allows 15<BR>
>year old girls to marry without parental consent.<BR>
<BR>
There is a Kennedy joke in there somewhere.  I'm going to calmly walk away <BR>
from it...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued<BR>
other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and<BR>
rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." - James D. Nicoll<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:03:38 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: Llellewyloly<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
<BR>
>does anyone have more information on this race than what is in GT:SM?<BR>
<BR>
The original information about the Llellewyloly was in _The Traveller<BR>
Adventure_. Much of that was reprinted in _BtC_, although the authors got<BR>
a few things wrong. Be aware that the ticket in _Star Mercs_ is (Opinion<BR>
Alert!) IMO quite flawed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:28:38 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:34:03 -0400 (EDT), Bruce Johnson<BR>
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Robert O'Connor wrote:<BR>
 <BR>
>> This is an attempt to cover the effects of varied gravitation,<BR>
>> acceleration protection (and its lack) on characters.<BR>
 <BR>
>> The proposed outline is as follows :-<BR>
>> i. General Considerations<BR>
>> - adaptive reflexes for the short term<BR>
>> - effects of big brief accelerations<BR>
<BR>
>Very nice, as usual! Someone should collect all of Roberts medico stuff<BR>
>into a single volume...something like "the Ship's Doctor's Manual' This<BR>
>is good stuff.<BR>
<BR>
Unless Robert tells me not to, stuff from him like this goes into<BR>
Freelance Traveller - he's already got a 9-part series on the<BR>
practice of medicine there; I think the Xenobio and Planetology<BR>
series are also his.<BR>
<BR>
>> My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me if you want<BR>
>> me to desist.<BR>
<BR>
>Heck...you're posting on-topic, useful information! What a horrible<BR>
>waste of bandwidth!!! ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Better this than flamewars over real-life gun control, or ...<BR>
recreational reproductive eccentricities...<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:31:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
On Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:31 AM<BR>
CardSharks@aol.com said,<BR>
<BR>
> We had the bindery worker fired, and a reprimand was placed in the file of<BR>
> his supervisor. Is that enough, or should we brand the cheeks of the<BR>
> supervisor as well.<BR>
<BR>
The Moose is a fine, noble animal.<BR>
.<BR>
My cousin was killed by a moose.<BR>
......<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:33:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>Recoil is as much a perceived effect as a 'real' one.  I shoot an 8.5 lb<BR>
>.458 win mag all the time with little difficulty (I'm 5'10 and average<BR>
>build).  I've had big burly friends complain that the recoil was brutal.<BR>
My<BR>
>wife is 5'5" and small and describes the recoil unpleasant, but not<BR>
>intolerable.<BR>
<BR>
	It is also a matter of training and practice - at the tender age of 18, I<BR>
had only used heavy .22LR target rifles, so shooting a KAR 98 for the first<BR>
time was an eye-opener, to say the least.  Now, nearly 20 years and 30<BR>
pounds later, I could shoot my .03-A3 all day, if only I could afford the<BR>
ammo.  :o)<BR>
	I once read an article by a surgeon who was also a shooter that a<BR>
particular rifle once seriously gouged his finger during recoil.  Fiercely<BR>
protective of his hands, he flinched badly for years whenever he tried to<BR>
fire that caliber.  He had no problem with other rifles, even ones that<BR>
recoiled more heavily.  It was just the psychological effect that did it.<BR>
	The upshot is that this is waaay too complicated for hard-and-fast rules.<BR>
Someone with Pistol-4 might be a deadly shot with a Ruger MkII in .22LR, but<BR>
be unable to even get his hand around a Desert Eagle, let alone hang onto it<BR>
in recoil.  Knowing _how_ to deal with the recoil can make a huge difference<BR>
between a 'hell of a ride' and a broken collarbone.  In addition, there is<BR>
the effect of concentration and adrenelin.  I have frequently heard that<BR>
when hunters actually make the shot at a game animal, they are not even<BR>
aware of the kick.  While I have never been hunting, there have been times<BR>
that I was so focused on the target that when I thought about it afterwards,<BR>
I cannot remember the recoil - there was only the target, the wind, and the<BR>
trigger pull.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT (STILL mourning the demise of the last local rifle range<BR>
in Orange County)<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they just don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:45:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Thing wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The Moose is a fine, noble animal.<BR>
> .<BR>
> My cousin was killed by a moose.<BR>
> ......<BR>
> <BR>
This reminds me of a song I better not sing.  Because if people were upset<BR>
about Ditzie it would really get them.<BR>
<BR>
******************************************************************************<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty<BR>
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away<BR>
Everything starts wearing fresh colors<BR>
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody<BR>
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic<BR>
Desire is embraced in a dream..."              -- X-JAPAN<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:46:36 -0400<BR>
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
> having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
> experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
I did some for my Java sector viewer. From:<BR>
http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/SubSectorCanvas.java<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    private final int HW=60, HH=48; // hex size<BR>
...<BR>
  private Polygon createHex(int col, int row)<BR>
    {<BR>
    int x = 10+HW*3/4*col;<BR>
    int y = 10+HH*row+HH/2*(col%2);<BR>
<BR>
    int xs[] = { x+HW/4, x+HW*3/4, x+HW, x+HW*3/4, x+HW/4, x, x+HW/4 };<BR>
    int ys[] = { y, y, y+HH/2, y+HH, y+HH, y+HH/2, y };<BR>
<BR>
    return new Polygon(xs,ys,7);<BR>
    }<BR>
<BR>
It's Java, but I'm sure that you get the idea even if you don't speak<BR>
Java. Note this routine creates hexes for the typical staggered, interlaced<BR>
hex columns found in a subsector/sector map.<BR>
<BR>
Ethan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:46:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
> the effect of concentration and adrenelin.  I have frequently heard that<BR>
> when hunters actually make the shot at a game animal, they are not even<BR>
> aware of the kick.  While I have never been hunting, there have been times<BR>
> that I was so focused on the target that when I thought about it<BR>
> afterwards,<BR>
> I cannot remember the recoil - there was only the target, the<BR>
> wind, and the<BR>
> trigger pull.<BR>
<BR>
Now imagine the adrenalin pumping when someone is shooting at you.  The<BR>
pounding of that .50BMG might even be comforting.  I remember the rattling<BR>
of the M-60 and thinking what a confidence builder it was just shooting at<BR>
silhouettes.<BR>
><BR>
> 	Rod Basler, COFIT (STILL mourning the demise of the last<BR>
> local rifle range<BR>
> in Orange County)<BR>
<BR>
How sad.  And in the land of John Wayne. He must be rolling over in his<BR>
grave.<BR>
<BR>
Which brings up another question.  How many players actually practice with<BR>
their weapons?  And how many actually go to the trouble of sighting in newly<BR>
acquired weapons?  My players are very gun savvy.  They always make it a<BR>
point to fire a few sighting shots from any new weapons.  Notice that you<BR>
rarely see this on TV or in movies.  Course it's hard to sight properly when<BR>
you've got that pistol cocked to the side in that cool 'gangsta' stance.<BR>
Good thing for the good guys that the bad guys don't user Weaver or the<BR>
front sight when busting caps at folks with their 'gat'. Bad for bystanders,<BR>
though.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:52:54 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Anthony, that's what I was looking for.  I tried figuring it out<BR>
from first principles, but was having a major case of the "duhs".<BR>
<BR>
Charles.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:55:42 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
>David Summers wrote :-<BR>
>> I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
>> a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
>> a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
>> at a hospital.<BR>
>Doesn't GT have something about 'reanimation', like CT/MT/T4?<BR>
<BR>
Not that I know about...<BR>
<BR>
>I tend to use :-<BR>
>Reanimation is a Formidable Medical, Edu task (co-operative OK).<BR>
>+1 difficulty level if fast drug used instead of low berthing.<BR>
<BR>
How does the fast drug take effect if the person is dead?<BR>
<BR>
>This is available at TTL 13+ :-<BR>
>Newly dead persons can be revived with a combination of nanomachine<BR>
>based cell stabilisation and repair, aggressive nutrition and growth<BR>
>quickening. The only requirement is an intact brain and brainstem.<BR>
><BR>
>Brain transplantation and reversing radiation-induced cerebrovascular<BR>
>syndrome is the big medical breakthrough of TTL 15.<BR>
>Naturally there can be significant memory/Int/Edu deficits following<BR>
>this.<BR>
<BR>
How long after the heart stops does it take for significant<BR>
degredation of tissues in general and the brain in particular?<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:00:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>>To put it another way, the local law can set limits on *getting*<BR>
>>married. Not on *being* married. <BR>
><BR>
> I would have thought that the local law would be free to set any<BR>
> limits it liked within its own boundaries, and the only effect of<BR>
> more-than-usually-repressive laws would be to get the world an Amber<BR>
> Zone classification.<BR>
<BR>
It is. But I'm going along the lines of most countries on earth, where<BR>
even if you couldn't have *gotten* married under their laws, your<BR>
marriage is at least "tolerated" as long as you are merely a visitor.<BR>
<BR>
> The other point to consider here is that even if a world has<BR>
> especially restrictive laws/customs regarding sexual morality, these<BR>
> will presumably not apply once you cross the Extrality Line into the<BR>
> starport.  That might explain why so many startowns have such sleazy<BR>
> reputations - many could have been set up to offer *locals* all the<BR>
> pleasures which were literally illegal outside the starport...<BR>
<BR>
This provides a much needed "safety valve" for the more repressive<BR>
cultures, while at the same time allowing them to point at the "gross<BR>
immorality" of off-worlders to justify *keeping* the restrictions. <BR>
<BR>
A win-win for the local politicians or ruling classes.<BR>
<BR>
> Another aspect of this would be that many people whose own sexuality<BR>
> didn't meet the norm prescribed by their culture (whatever that might<BR>
> be) would be keen to get jobs working at the starport, especially if<BR>
> the job came with on-site accommodation.  Something to think about<BR>
> next time your players start an adventure "sitting in a starport<BR>
> bar..."  Of course, all this means that the local<BR>
> governmental/religious/cultural leaders will be constantly denouncing<BR>
> the starport as a hotbed of vice and depravity, and organising<BR>
> blockades, boycotts, graffitti, harrassment, terrorism...<BR>
<BR>
Blockades wouldn't be tolerated by the Imperium. Boycotts are a bit<BR>
iffy unless the world is a net *exporter*. Harassment is possible, but<BR>
needs to be kept under control. Terrorism is a good way to get a visit<BR>
from the Imperial Marines.<BR>
<BR>
And note that the leaders "profit" from having this ready made "bad<BR>
example". So they'll have good reasons for keeping protests to the<BR>
level that looks good on TV but doesn't really *do* anything.<BR>
<BR>
All bets are off if the leaders are fanatics.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:05:33 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>BTW, is it 1 in 12?  I thought it was 2 on 2D6, or 1 in 36 or 2.7% casualty<BR>
rate (still awfully high).  1-12 is pretty close to 'decimation', and most<BR>
modern armies would consider 8.3% casualties pretty 'bloody'.<<BR>
<BR>
Base 5 on 26. -1 for End 6-, +1 for Medic 2+ at revival. That means;<BR>
1 in 6 (base civilian) good health, unattended death rate<BR>
1 in 3.6! poor health, unattended death rate<BR>
1 in 6 ill health attended death rate<BR>
1 in 3 (base military) good health, attended death rate<BR>
<BR>
Unless I am missing some errata or edition retcon of course.<BR>
<BR>
>What is the current casualty rate for airborne operations?  I suggest that<BR>
this casualty rate would be acceptable for LB troop transport.<<BR>
<BR>
Not a clue here.<BR>
<BR>
So, time for a revision?<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:08:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/17/00 12:27 PM, gmgoffin@yahoo.com issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>> My apologies if I am wasting bandwidth. Please contact me<BR>
>> if you want me to desist.<BR>
> <BR>
> Are you crazy?  Even when I don't read it right away (which<BR>
> is usually), I always copy your medical stuff for use in my<BR>
> own games.  Don't ever desist.<BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
Ditto here, damn interesting stuff. Highly useful, I flag all your "Ships<BR>
Doctor" type posts. I can't imagine anybody calling it a waste of bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:05:51 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
><BR>
>There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
>They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
>propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
>(915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4<BR>
damage<BR>
>is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that can kill<BR>
>battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
<BR>
There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:15:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net><BR>
Subject: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
Hello -- newbie here. Been poking around amongst the Downport,<BR>
read the TML FAQ, and just subscribed to the list. Can anyone<BR>
direct me to archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
I checked the archive mentioned in the FAQ, but the files listed<BR>
seemed to halt after 1999 -- where are the 2000 archives?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for the probably obivous question...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Viktor Haag                           Senior Technical Writer, RIM<BR>
'79 99, '89 9000T, '00 9-3 SE         My opinions are my own, only.<BR>
tc++ ru ge(+) !3i c jt- au(-) pi+ he(+)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:21:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Thing" <gduke@telebyte.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
On Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:45 PM<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan said,<BR>
<BR>
> This reminds me of a song I better not sing.  Because if people were upset<BR>
> about Ditzie it would really get them.<BR>
<BR>
Then, Dear Lady, could you sing it off list?<BR>
<BR>
Umm, ObTrav:  I imagine that cultural differences between worlds can put a<BR>
crimp in trade in pop cultural items such as music.<BR>
<BR>
"What do you mean my entire cargo is being seized as lewd material!  It's<BR>
selling like hotcakes back at core."<BR>
<BR>
G.D.D.<BR>
Thing under the stairs,<BR>
Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
===========================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:25:47 EDT<BR>
From: Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Subject: Re: Striker Questions<BR>
<BR>
I know I'm late on this (I'm always late, I'm a digest subscriber), but...<BR>
<BR>
Kaz asks:<BR>
<BR>
>What is the volume of the Remote MRL Equipment for a MRL launcher?<BR>
<BR>
Book 3, pp. 17-18 state that remote MRL's need some type of communication<BR>
gear for both the firer & the launcher (you can get weights & volumes from <BR>
the  tables in the back of Book 3), as well as control equipment.  The <BR>
control gear masses 15 kg for the launcher, and 1 kg for the operator. It<BR>
doesn't  specify the volume, but looking at the rules for communication gear,<BR>
I  would divide mass by 500 to get the volume in cubic meters (you could also <BR>
divide by 1000 as is used for some other equipment in Striker; most elec-<BR>
tronics use the divide by 500 rule -- radios, radars, etc.).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Where are the values for point defense weapons?  Do you use the direct<BR>
>fire tables?<BR>
<BR>
You must design your own point defense weapons (any rapid fire direct <BR>
weapon should do -- you could use the pre-made rapid pulse energy weapons<BR>
or even a VRF gauss gun).  The weapon must have a point defense fire con-<BR>
trol system installed as well (Book 3, design sequence 8, p. 21, the <BR>
direct fire FC table is on p. 12 of the Design Sequence Tables booklet;<BR>
PD fire control has 10x the cost & weight & volume of direct FC).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Does a MRL launcher get a autofire bonus?  Also, what is the number of<BR>
>targets?<BR>
<BR>
The ROF of an MRL increases the beaten zone for indirect fire.  There are <BR>
no rules in Striker for using rockets as direct fire weapons.  You can use<BR>
rule 25 in Book 1 (pp. 40-41) to resolve direct fire by unguided rockets.<BR>
Or you could use the number of rockets fired to determine the autofire <BR>
bonus as already suggested by someone else.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I find many of the posts on this list to be quite insulting and snide all the<BR>
>way round.<BR>
<BR>
It happens in all mailing-lists/newsgroups.  The TML is usually better <BR>
behaved than most others I've seen.  This is just a bad spell.<BR>
<BR>
>Most of the posts are off topic, which I skip and look for interesting items.<BR>
<BR>
This is the standard procedure.  Just thresh each digest a bit to separate the<BR>
chaff -- remember, discussion you find irrelevant might be used as plot or <BR>
background inspiration by other TML members.  This is a big tent.  All milieu<BR>
*do* vary.  <BR>
<BR>
>Can someone please point me to a list where I can get technical /striker<BR>
>questions answered?  And then I will unsubscribe from this list.<BR>
<BR>
No need to unsubscribe.  Questions about Striker are welcome here (and I'd <BR>
like to see any suggestions/house rules you can come up with).  :)<BR>
<BR>
Ludowick@aol.com<BR>
   <BR>
P.S. I've carbon copied this to your (Kazinski's) email address in case you <BR>
have <BR>
already unsubscribed.  The TML is generally a very good resource to the <BR>
Traveller<BR>
player/referee.  You should read a few more issues before deciding to <BR>
unsubscribe.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:33:12 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> How long after the heart stops does it take for significant<BR>
> degradation of tissues in general and the brain in particular?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Not a medico like Robert, but I think the generally accepted figure is 5<BR>
minutes before the brain starts to suffer from oxygen deprivation.<BR>
Artificial respiration should prolong this, and extreme cold can also reduce<BR>
brain damage.  And brain dead individuals can have their organs preserved<BR>
for a very long time with respirators.<BR>
<BR>
IMTU I postulate a high tech drug regimen applied immediately after 'death'<BR>
that can preserve the brain for a longer period of time, probably coupled<BR>
with some sort of respirator/circulatory maintenance device that keeps the<BR>
brain oxygenated.  The general rule I use with this 'NeuroStasis' is each<BR>
hour delay until advanced medical support is brought to bear results in a<BR>
permanent 1 point reduction in INT and/or EDU.<BR>
<BR>
"Well, It looks like old Bob made it through another one"<BR>
"Yeah, but he's not as sharp as he used to be"<BR>
<BR>
Since I personally don't believe in killing a character outright (unless<BR>
they REALLY deserve it), I can penalize a character who get himself 'killed'<BR>
without actually terminating him.<BR>
<BR>
My own opinion.  YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:36:04 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Effects of acceleration and gravity (part 1, longish)<BR>
<BR>
> > Are you crazy?  Even when I don't read it right away (which<BR>
> > is usually), I always copy your medical stuff for use in my<BR>
> > own games.  Don't ever desist.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > --Glenn<BR>
><BR>
> Ditto here, damn interesting stuff. Highly useful, I flag all your "Ships<BR>
> Doctor" type posts. I can't imagine anybody calling it a waste of<BR>
> bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I feel like I should set up a 'Robert Filter' to save all this stuff.  I'll<BR>
let our resident medico post is stuff, and with his permission, link or post<BR>
the stuff on my web page.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:36:46 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Declining societies (long)<BR>
<BR>
At 10:36 AM -0800 7/18/0, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
>Walt Smith wrote:<BR>
>> Frank G. Pitt wrote:<BR>
>> > The US is already into it's decline, having burned itself<BR>
>> > out over the last century<BR>
>><BR>
>> Interesting opinion.  What evidence do you see that equates<BR>
>> the US with a burned out, declining country?<BR>
[Arguable stuff snipped , including a moral equivalence of the USA and<BR>
USSR, that I won't get into...]<BR>
<BR>
>The decline of the USSR means that  the  USA  is  the  undisputed<BR>
>military power in the world.  Its global reach  is  unmatched  by<BR>
>any other single country.  But while the USA retains its dominant<BR>
>military position it no longer  has  undisputed  economic  power.<BR>
>The rise of Japan, the development of Germany,  as  well  as  the<BR>
>competition from the EU, have all made inroads into the  domestic<BR>
>and foreign markets of the USA.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure this is true at all.  The US is probably stronger<BR>
than it has been regarding other contries (esp Japan).  It certain<BR>
is as strong, if not stronger, than it was during the 70's in<BR>
influence, military power, and economic strength.<BR>
<BR>
The US has pulled back from the world stage not because it<BR>
was unable to project as much power, but because it no<BR>
longer saw the necessity.<BR>
<BR>
> And this  at  a  time  when  the<BR>
>federal deficit, caused  by  'imperial'  commitments,  is  at  an<BR>
>astronomical level.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, while the deficit is high, the budget is in surplus.<BR>
The suation vis a vis that was worse during the Vietnam war....<BR>
<BR>
>Worse, Europe is moving towards a unified environment, instead of<BR>
>just being a playground for the superpowers.<BR>
<BR>
Of course Europe has never been shy about objecting to US policies<BR>
they don't like.  The EU is more unified, but when England, Germany,<BR>
and France agreed on something (and they complise most of the<BR>
"pull" in Europe) they had no problem coordinating.  OTOH, when<BR>
they don't agree today they still will work at cross purposes<BR>
(EU or no).  The situation in Bosnia was suppose to be this<BR>
grand test for the unified Europe as a proto-superpower.<BR>
<BR>
>Such an environment<BR>
>fosters  a  degree   of   protectionism   leading   to   economic<BR>
>isolationism.  Many economists have identified this as a  partial<BR>
>disintegration of the world economy (by 'disintegration' I do not<BR>
>mean destructive, merely dis-integration).  The existence of  the<BR>
>NAFTA agreement can be seen as a reaction to this disintegration,<BR>
>it is a "Fortress North  America"  in  response  to  a  "Fortress<BR>
>Europe".<BR>
<BR>
Isolationism isn't occuring because America is declining.  It<BR>
has always been there.  The only difference is that, without<BR>
communism, it is harder to convince people that the US needs<BR>
to get involved with "foreign entanglements".<BR>
<BR>
>Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
>However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
>due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
>will end by the end of 2000.<BR>
<BR>
Except the US economy is also more healthy than the European<BR>
and Japanese economies that you cite as being about to displace<BR>
it.  I suppose one can try and find "external factors" the only<BR>
help the US, and ignore such engines as IT sectors, but that<BR>
is pretty contrived at best.  The fact is that one is hard pressed<BR>
to find fundamental weakness in the US economy that are any<BR>
greater than during other periods where the US was quite able to<BR>
sustain the cold war effort.<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:45:44 -0400<BR>
From: "swordworlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
Due to the TML not being (Twilight) 2000 compatible, the archives for this<BR>
year continue with the 1999 designation :-D<BR>
<BR>
Archive numbers after number 2000 (oddly enough) are fairly recent :-p<BR>
<BR>
- -Swordy<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Viktor Haag" <vhaag@rim.net><BR>
> I checked the archive mentioned in the FAQ, but the files listed<BR>
> seemed to halt after 1999 -- where are the 2000 archives?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2781<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2782</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, July 18 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2782<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
X-Men in Traveller<BR>
Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
RE: Tech development curve<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tollerance<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
Re: Dissent<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: High TL Planets<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: DF Mortars (was: Striker questions)<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 14:50:52 -0700<BR>
From: "Brian Jenkins" <Brian.Jenkins@grpwise1.westek.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
Now THAT is what I all technology!<BR>
<BR>
Was that the Thunderbolt Greaseslapper!<BR>
<BR>
Brian<BR>
<BR>
>>> "swordworlder" <swordworlder@yahoo.com> 07/18/00 02:45PM >>><BR>
Due to the TML not being (Twilight) 2000 compatible, the archives for this<BR>
year continue with the 1999 designation :-D<BR>
<BR>
Archive numbers after number 2000 (oddly enough) are fairly recent :-p<BR>
<BR>
- -Swordy<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Viktor Haag" <vhaag@rim.net><BR>
> I checked the archive mentioned in the FAQ, but the files listed<BR>
> seemed to halt after 1999 -- where are the 2000 archives?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:05:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
> Was that the Thunderbolt Greaseslapper!<BR>
<BR>
Errrr....help, anyone?<BR>
<BR>
<backs towards door, starts fingering latest toy from Moorsyth Extravagent<BR>
Guns....><BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:29:11 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> And keep in mind that non-humans may be able to use *much* heavier<BR>
> weaponry. Consider the sort of recoil that can be absorbed by the<BR>
> "lower shoulders" of a K'kree. Especially with 4 legs and all the body<BR>
> mass for bracing.<BR>
><BR>
> A K'kree may consider a 12.7 mm machinegun an overly light weapon!<BR>
><BR>
> Picture a K'kree with a front mounted mini-gun. And then think about<BR>
> just how much ammo he could carry in panniers slung across his body.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Then remember that K'kree *never* do anything on their own....btw...how do they<BR>
cope with weaing Battle Dress? does it count as a vehicle? or clothing?<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:52:27 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, David P. Summers wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 10:36 AM -0800 7/18/0, Trevor, Peter wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >The decline of the USSR means that  the  USA  is  the  undisputed<BR>
> >military power in the world.  Its global reach  is  unmatched  by<BR>
> >any other single country.  But while the USA retains its dominant<BR>
> >military position it no longer  has  undisputed  economic  power.<BR>
> >The rise of Japan, the development of Germany,  as  well  as  the<BR>
> >competition from the EU, have all made inroads into the  domestic<BR>
> >and foreign markets of the USA.<BR>
> <BR>
> I'm not sure this is true at all.  The US is probably stronger than it<BR>
> has been regarding other contries (esp Japan).  It certain is as<BR>
> strong, if not stronger, than it was during the 70's in influence,<BR>
> military power, and economic strength.<BR>
<BR>
This is true for the _specific_ era of the 70's since it was then our<BR>
total dependence on imported petroleum was so painfully obvious.  However,<BR>
compared to the 80's, I think a vast decline is obvious.<BR>
 <BR>
> The US has pulled back from the world stage not because it was unable<BR>
> to project as much power, but because it no longer saw the necessity.<BR>
<BR>
Has the US pulled back from the world stage or stepped onto it more<BR>
strongly than ever?  Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo, to a lesser<BR>
extent sub-Saharan Africa and East Timor, the ongoing massive commitment<BR>
of troops in Korea...IMHO there's no way to quantify this as a pullback.<BR>
 <BR>
> > And this  at  a  time  when  the<BR>
> >federal deficit, caused  by  'imperial'  commitments,  is  at  an<BR>
> >astronomical level.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually, while the deficit is high, the budget is in surplus. The<BR>
> suation vis a vis that was worse during the Vietnam war....<BR>
<BR>
Because the US actually spent enough money then to maintain a viable<BR>
military?<BR>
 <BR>
> >Worse, Europe is moving towards a unified environment, instead of<BR>
> >just being a playground for the superpowers.<BR>
> <BR>
> Of course Europe has never been shy about objecting to US policies<BR>
> they don't like.  The EU is more unified, but when England, Germany,<BR>
> and France agreed on something (and they complise most of the "pull"<BR>
> in Europe) they had no problem coordinating.  OTOH, when they don't<BR>
> agree today they still will work at cross purposes (EU or no).  The<BR>
> situation in Bosnia was suppose to be this grand test for the unified<BR>
> Europe as a proto-superpower.<BR>
<BR>
Which they completely screwed up.  The UN had to hand the whole operation<BR>
over to NATO (primarily the US); at no time was the idea of handing<BR>
peacekeeping over to a EU force seriously considered.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Such an environment<BR>
> >fosters  a  degree   of   protectionism   leading   to   economic<BR>
> >isolationism.  Many economists have identified this as a  partial<BR>
> >disintegration of the world economy (by 'disintegration' I do not<BR>
> >mean destructive, merely dis-integration).  The existence of  the<BR>
> >NAFTA agreement can be seen as a reaction to this disintegration,<BR>
> >it is a "Fortress North  America"  in  response  to  a  "Fortress<BR>
> >Europe".<BR>
> <BR>
> Isolationism isn't occuring because America is declining.  It has<BR>
> always been there.  The only difference is that, without communism, it<BR>
> is harder to convince people that the US needs to get involved with<BR>
> "foreign entanglements".<BR>
<BR>
I have to agree with you there.  The US has been historically extremely<BR>
isolationist; communism was a fluke.<BR>
 <BR>
> >Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
> >However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
> >due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
> >will end by the end of 2000.<BR>
> <BR>
> Except the US economy is also more healthy than the European<BR>
> and Japanese economies that you cite as being about to displace<BR>
> it.  I suppose one can try and find "external factors" the only<BR>
> help the US, and ignore such engines as IT sectors, but that<BR>
> is pretty contrived at best.  The fact is that one is hard pressed<BR>
> to find fundamental weakness in the US economy that are any<BR>
> greater than during other periods where the US was quite able to<BR>
> sustain the cold war effort.<BR>
<BR>
I can't agree with this at all.  The US economy, from a defense point of<BR>
view, is in shambles.  The vast majority of our manufacturing capacity was<BR>
exported to Mexico, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc., etc. and the<BR>
US retains very little in the way of heavy industry.  We've lossed lots of<BR>
capabilities in this area to even countries such as the Netherlands.  I<BR>
think we're currently third in overall steel production worldwide<BR>
(somewhat offset by our capability in aluminum and composite production),<BR>
and our military designs are ridiculously complex, expensive, and in many<BR>
cases (e.g. the Patriot system) totally ineffective.  <BR>
<BR>
The Japanese GNP may not be growing terribly fast, but the fact remains<BR>
they maintain a large trade surplus with the US, as do China and most East<BR>
Asian nations. <BR>
<BR>
Our shipbuilding capability is considerably lesser than it was even twenty<BR>
years ago.  At the rate urban sprawl is accelerating, combined with<BR>
prolonged drought conditions in the South, several experts predict that<BR>
the US will be a net *importer* of food in less than thirty years.  We<BR>
already import our semiconductors from Taiwan and Malaysia, the gun<BR>
barrels for the M1 from Germany, and our oil from Saudi Arabia.  We are<BR>
increasingly dependent on imports from China, South Africa, and Russia for<BR>
strategically vital elements such as Cr, Mo, V, La, and Nb.<BR>
<BR>
Also, our population has shrank considerably _vis a vis_ China and India,<BR>
two of our more likely opponents in a major conflict.<BR>
<BR>
IT is cute, but not very useful from a military point of view.  What the<BR>
hell are we going to do, throw AOL CDs at enemy infantry?<BR>
<BR>
Sorry for getting a little riled up, but as a draft-age American male, I<BR>
thought it was relevant to me.<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  I feel that it's very difficult to draw parallels between the 3I<BR>
in 1100 and modern-day America, since the 3I is so sharply divided by<BR>
travel and communication time between astrographic regions.  In the US,<BR>
class and economic distinctions are much more distinct than regional<BR>
differences.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:12:08 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Greeting Gentlepersons<BR>
(that should be sufficently correct to avoid<BR>
any fiery response)<BR>
<BR>
Our gaming group met last saturday and<BR>
after some gaming, the obligatory pizza, and <BR>
then sampling of some very nice single malt scotch,<BR>
we proceeded to the, perhaps more fancifull, portion<BR>
of the evening...... musing (err, well there are other<BR>
terms that might well apply).<BR>
<BR>
One of our brethren had recently seen the new movie:<BR>
"X-Men" and his opinion was "not a bad movie. Needs<BR>
work:". However, his comments in re: traveller brought <BR>
up the following question: Has anyone created or used<BR>
superheroe types as foils or NPC's in their campaigns?<BR>
<BR>
I know that there is said to be a version of Traveller called<BR>
"GT" and that the Gurps game system has more variants<BR>
and supplements than, well almost anything that you'd care<BR>
to mention. (no offense intended to a very successfull game<BR>
system. But it's not what we play, which is an admixture of<BR>
CT & MT)<BR>
<BR>
I'm hoping that there may be someone who's explored this<BR>
concept already and save me from my group. Their<BR>
already plotting in this vein.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry prolixity. My keyboard just won't stop<BR>
<BR>
BTW, anyone caring to discuss single malt scotch, please <BR>
contact me at your pleasure.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:04:08 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
<BR>
On 07/17/00 at 06:56 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
<BR>
>Older references have the *losers* being sacrificed. But finally, the<BR>
>evidence was just too strong and current references state that the<BR>
>*winners* were the ones who were sacrificed.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but what I've always wondered was what happened to the losers?  Did they go on with their lives? Did they get another chance to compete? Or Were they just summarily executed instead of being feted for a year before being sacrificed? <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:06:12 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
<BR>
David Smart wrote:<BR>
> Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles ...<BR>
> <BR>
> There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
> being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
> heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
<BR>
www.bigguns.com seems to be a porn site. The girls look older than <BR>
15, and I think "one heck of a muzzle brake" has just entered my <BR>
vast and throbbing collection of euphemisms. Or perhaps that should <BR>
be "pair of muzzle brakes". <BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:15:50 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
On 07/17/00 at 02:49 PM,  Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So when we chuck the first amendment who gets to be Imperial Censor, Tim,<BR>
>me or you?<BR>
<BR>
How about me?  I'd tell you both to can the arguing and get back to<BR>
Traveller!  <ig><BR>
<BR>
Eris,<BR>
    ban all prejudice!<BR>
    silence the censors!<BR>
    uh...never mind <wink><BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:18:02 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
<BR>
> www.bigguns.com seems to be a porn site. The girls look older than<BR>
> 15, and I think "one heck of a muzzle brake" has just entered my<BR>
> vast and throbbing collection of euphemisms. Or perhaps that should<BR>
> be "pair of muzzle brakes".<BR>
><BR>
> -Russell B<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I'd try starting at the .50 caliber shooter association <<BR>
http://www.fcsa.org>.  Yeah, those porn sites pop up in the weirdest places.<BR>
I once tried to find the lyrics to the theme for "Super Chicken".  A search<BR>
on super chicken turned up some interesting sited, having nothing to do with<BR>
the cartoon.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:18:38 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
I've got my JetsonMobile on order - don't you? I thot that everyone was<BR>
going to get one..<BR>
<BR>
:)<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of David P.<BR>
Summers<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:25 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>As<BR>
>everyone knows by now, the main problem with trying to predict the future<BR>
of<BR>
>technology is that we tend to be too conservative and things come out of<BR>
the<BR>
>proverbial left field at us.  Look at the SF from the 60's and 70's - the<BR>
>computers were all 'Big Iron'.  I've even seen lines like "...and the<BR>
relays<BR>
>whirred and clicked..." - transistors were already in common use by that<BR>
>time.<BR>
<BR>
Not always.  After all, where is your flying car?<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:33:47 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tollerance<BR>
<BR>
GT:AR3 does some justice to the K'kree and... um... their weapons and<BR>
tactics. I am greatly saddened that I tend to run everything in the Spinward<BR>
Marches - tho I do hope that after Rim of Fire they do another sector off in<BR>
the lands of the really bizzare folks..<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Rodney<BR>
Basler<BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 10:59 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tollerance<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
><BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
>And keep in mind that non-humans may be able to use *much* heavier<BR>
>weaponry. Consider the sort of recoil that can be absorbed by the<BR>
>"lower shoulders" of a K'kree. Especially with 4 legs and all the body<BR>
>mass for bracing.<BR>
><BR>
>A K'kree may consider a 12.7 mm machinegun an overly light weapon!<BR>
><BR>
>Picture a K'kree with a front mounted mini-gun. And then think about<BR>
>just how much ammo he could carry in panniers slung across his body.<BR>
<BR>
	Oh gods, let's not...those centaurs give me nightmares enough already.<BR>
<BR>
	I am reminded of Niven/Pournell's book _Footfall_; the aliens are big and<BR>
bulky like K'kree on steroids, and the one time I recall a human using of of<BR>
their automatic rifles, he had to brace the butt against a bulkhead to keep<BR>
from getting killed by the recoil.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they just don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:35:23 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Which brings up another question.  How many players <BR>
>actually practice with their weapons?  And how many<BR>
>actually go to the trouble of sighting in newly<BR>
>acquired weapons?<BR>
<BR>
Oh, you mean how many player-characters, don't you.  I'm<BR>
sure all of the players who acquire guns sight them in and<BR>
practice regularly.  Player-characters of such players<BR>
probably do as well.  In fact, most of the<BR>
player-characters that I have seen as a referee or a player<BR>
check out their new weapons at the range at the first<BR>
opportunity.  (My own player-characters do, of course, and<BR>
I don't even own any guns.)<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:42:11 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> David Smart wrote:<BR>
> > Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles ...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
> > being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
> > heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif<BR>
<BR>
Might be the picture people are thinking about. However, the age of the<BR>
young woman firing the thing isn't clear.<BR>
<BR>
the main site is: <BR>
<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 18:43:37 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Dissent<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/17/00 at 02:49 PM,  Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> said:<BR>
> <BR>
> >So when we chuck the first amendment who gets to be Imperial Censor, Tim,<BR>
> >me or you?<BR>
> <BR>
> How about me?  I'd tell you both to can the arguing and get back to<BR>
> Traveller!  <ig><BR>
> <BR>
Some people already beat you to it.  But I am looking for an <BR>
interesting live horse to beat into the ground again.  :  )<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:47:28 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC In MT it was cannon that a _dead_ person could be revived at a TL16<BR>
hospital... At one time we had 3 charactors from one player in the low<BR>
berths... he never learned ;)<BR>
<BR>
In GT I would have no problem at all with this - at GTL 12 for an alive but<BR>
mortally wounded fellow or GTL13 for a not long dead fellow.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of David P.<BR>
Summers<BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 7:42 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> That is something I don't disagree with at all...<BR>
><BR>
>One can only wonder about wars involving the 3I, where medical technology<BR>
>has advanced to the point where almost any non-fatal wound can be treated<BR>
to<BR>
>full recovery.  Wounded soldiers could be returned to combat over and over<BR>
>again.  One can only hope that physiological treatments have kept pace with<BR>
>'conventional' medicine, else the psycho wards of the Imperium will no<BR>
doubt<BR>
>be full of overused combat veterans.<BR>
<BR>
I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
at a hospital.  (And high tech combat is already sufficiently<BR>
deadly).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:25:40 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 4:31 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:08 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
> >They were amongst the worst ever written. To run the<BR>
> >games I used to port over CoC mechanics which worked<BR>
> >well.<BR>
><BR>
> I tend to port things either to GURPS or CORPS, depending on how<BR>
much work<BR>
> I'm interested in doing.<BR>
> --<BR>
I've got G3 and VDS - I occasionally design something small with VDS<BR>
just to remind<BR>
myself why I design things with GURPS Vehicles.<BR>
<BR>
(VDS is the Vehicle Design System, a design system of ferocious<BR>
opacity)<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:32:41 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: High TL Planets<BR>
<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
> Ben Aaronovitch writes:<BR>
> > We imported my wife's brother (from Sierre Leone)<BR>
><BR>
> > I never realised what the expression 'naturally good<BR>
> > with his hands'<BR>
> > really meant until I saw him do it.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > This has absolutely no relevence to the topic does it.<BR>
><BR>
> Well, most of the skills you describe are TL 5-6.  Mostly it<BR>
illustrates the inconsistency of real-world tech levels (most low-tech<BR>
worlds probably have pockets of higher tech).<BR>
- ---<BR>
<BR>
I've always assumed so. I also assume that low tech planets with<BR>
Starports that are hooked<BR>
into the Imperium are going to have absorbed a great deal of basic<BR>
theory. Thus even low tech<BR>
planets generally understand germ theory, modern accountancy practice,<BR>
bits of useful social<BR>
theory as regards jurisprudence etc.<BR>
<BR>
There will also be a fair percentage of people educated 'abroad' to do<BR>
specialised work, particular<BR>
at the interface between their culture and the Imperial mainstream.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:45:07 +0100<BR>
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'<BR>
                                       Bill Murrey - Scrooged<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
> > >I'm from London.<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> >     Makes sense, doesn't it?  *weg*  Btw, you still working for<BR>
the BBC?<BR>
<BR>
What does *weg* mean.<BR>
<BR>
I'm freelance, I'll work for anyone.<BR>
<BR>
> >     Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts &<BR>
maybe<BR>
> > colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the<BR>
Earth.  I am<BR>
> > sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It<BR>
is a<BR>
> > given.<BR>
><BR>
> All opinion of course, but mine is that it is far more likely to be<BR>
either<BR>
> India or China.<BR>
<BR>
I'm working on a background that has China, India and Brazil as top<BR>
dogs<BR>
but past their peak and beginning to get nervous about Africa and a<BR>
resurgent<BR>
America.<BR>
<BR>
Ben Aaronovitch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:52:12 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: DF Mortars (was: Striker questions)<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Rod replied to Glenn:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  My quick<BR>
> >review of the Striker design sequences does not indicate<BR>
> >any prohibition on direct fire by mortars.  Accordingly, an<BR>
> >MRL may conduct direct fire if it has direct fire fire<BR>
> >control.<BR>
> <BR>
> 	In our world, there is a precedent for this.  The Germans in WWI had a<BR>
> light mortar (7.7mm leichte minenwerfer) that was normally supplied with a<BR>
> heavy base plate, but later in the war they developed a relatively light<BR>
> (yeah, right  >_<  ) base with a trail (like a small atrillery piece) to<BR>
> allow it to be used for direct fire.  This could be pulled forward during an<BR>
> assault to knock out allied strongpoints and MG positions (prepared<BR>
> positions often had ungodly overhead protection due to the large amount of<BR>
> indirect fire artillery used).  In our TL8, these were pretty much<BR>
> superceded by things like the AT4 and the RAW rocket which can be fired from<BR>
> the front of an M-16.  Once reliable rocket motors come into use, it is<BR>
> lighter to have the warhead propel itself, rather than having to lug around<BR>
> a heavy projector.<BR>
> <BR>
And there is precedent at a higher tech level as well. My kids were watching<BR>
something on Hiscoverylearning channel about riverine warfare in Viet Name.<BR>
I think they showed a novel use for the mortar mounted on the bow of the<BR>
river patrol boat; from a couple hundred yards, the fired the mortar with a<BR>
muzzle elevation in the neighborhood of zero degrees. The round skipped once<BR>
on the water and bounced into the shrubbery, followed by a fairly spectacular<BR>
explosion.<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:46:23 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:05:33 -0400<BR>
>From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>Tod Glenn wrote,<BR>
>>BTW, is it 1 in 12?  I thought it was 2 on 2D6, or 1 in 36 or 2.7%<BR>
casualty<BR>
>rate (still awfully high).  1-12 is pretty close to 'decimation', and most<BR>
>modern armies would consider 8.3% casualties pretty 'bloody'.<<BR>
><BR>
>Base 5 on 26. -1 for End 6-, +1 for Medic 2+ at revival. That means;<BR>
>1 in 6 (base civilian) good health, unattended death rate<BR>
>1 in 3.6! poor health, unattended death rate<BR>
>1 in 6 ill health attended death rate<BR>
>1 in 3 (base military) good health, attended death rate<BR>
><BR>
>Unless I am missing some errata or edition retcon of course.<BR>
><BR>
>>What is the current casualty rate for airborne operations?  I suggest that<BR>
>this casualty rate would be acceptable for LB troop transport.<<BR>
><BR>
>Not a clue here.<BR>
><BR>
>So, time for a revision?<BR>
><BR>
>Sam<BR>
<BR>
I was thinking about this the last time this question came up. (about a year<BR>
ago.)<BR>
My IMTU solution is thus.<BR>
<BR>
Roll for cold sleep survival as per the rules.<BR>
<BR>
If the roll suceeds the passenger has survived low berth travel without ill<BR>
effects.<BR>
<BR>
If the roll is unsuccesfull another roll identical to the previous roll is<BR>
in called for.<BR>
<BR>
Should this roll be made the passenger in question suffers from a mild case<BR>
of<BR>
Low Berth Travell Fatigue Syndrome (LoBeTFatS) with symptoms including inner<BR>
ear disturbance (ear ache and poor ballance), muscle fatigue, headache,<BR>
digestive tract distress, etc. (perhaps 1 random symptom per point that the<BR>
1st<BR>
roll was missed by) Recovery time should no more than a day or two unaided<BR>
or<BR>
a few hours with treatments (fluid replenishement, muscle relaxants, pain<BR>
killers,<BR>
etc.)<BR>
<BR>
Failure of the second roll results in a much more serious case of the<BR>
proceding<BR>
with all of the effects as above plus fever/chills and lasts for a week or<BR>
two.<BR>
<BR>
But we don't stop there. Roll again as the initial survival roll. Should<BR>
this roll be failed 1 of the passengers wound stats (Str,Dex,End) is reduced<BR>
to 0 in addition<BR>
to the effects above. Continue rolling untill the passenger is dead or the<BR>
survival roll is passed.<BR>
<BR>
This preserves a certain amount of danger while allowing for a much more<BR>
realistic reward to risk ratio for low berth travel. One of the side effects<BR>
of<BR>
these changes will be a difference in the way the low lottery works. The<BR>
Captain of the ship still sets aside Cr10 from the price of the passage and<BR>
places it in<BR>
an escrow account. The account continues in existance untill a low passenger<BR>
dies at which point the low lottery money (including acrued interest) is<BR>
split between the surviving low passengers.This could result in passengers<BR>
choosing<BR>
to journey on a particular ship based on the size of the low lottery<BR>
jackpot. (A high jackpot figure suggests that the ship is safer to travel on<BR>
as well as enticing gamblers willing to risk it all for the big payout)<BR>
<BR>
It's still a bit rough arround the edges I'll repost when I have a thought<BR>
out and<BR>
pretified version.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2782<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2783<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2781<BR>
RE: Tech development curve<BR>
Re: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Dangerous Ground (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
RE: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: The Llellewyloly<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:28:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2781<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
>><BR>
>> 	Rod Basler, COFIT (STILL mourning the demise of the last<BR>
>> local rifle range<BR>
>> in Orange County)<BR>
><BR>
>How sad.  And in the land of John Wayne. He must be rolling over in his<BR>
>grave.<BR>
<BR>
	The South Coast Shooting and Training Association (they changed their name<BR>
for the more descriptive "South Coast Gun Club" due to pressure vis.<BR>
image...ick) was going to move from their old location (which the Irvine<BR>
Company wanted to develop) to a newer location.  It was going to be BIG,<BR>
with ranges out to 600 (or was it even 1000?) yards.  I was really looking<BR>
forward to giving my Springfield a real workout and seeing what it could do.<BR>
The money had been raised for both the new facility and the cleanup of the<BR>
old site - which consisted of scraping off 'x' feet of topsoil and having it<BR>
disposed of in a secure location due to several decades of lead slugs in the<BR>
soil.  Then, at the last minute, some bright boy on some commission decided<BR>
to pull a fast one by increasing the number of feet of soil that had to be<BR>
removed.  The added cost sucked up all the money and the company folded.  A<BR>
stroke of the pen and *poof*, it was gone.<BR>
	There are several indoor pistol ranges, but now the closest rifle range is<BR>
at least an hour and a half up into the mountains.  <sigh><BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - I'm at work, but they still don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:42:42 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>Subject: RE: Tech development curve<BR>
><BR>
>>As<BR>
>>everyone knows by now, the main problem with trying to predict the future<BR>
>>of<BR>
>>technology is that we tend to be too conservative and things come out of<BR>
>>the<BR>
>>proverbial left field at us.  Look at the SF from the 60's and 70's - the<BR>
>>computers were all 'Big Iron'.  I've even seen lines like "...and the<BR>
>>relays<BR>
>>whirred and clicked..." - transistors were already in common use by that<BR>
>>time.<BR>
><BR>
>Not always.  After all, where is your flying car?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
	True, true..not always, but another common effect is that the<BR>
author/artist/whatever tends to exprapolate only on what is familiar, then<BR>
something comes out of left field and changes everything.  Take<BR>
"Metropolis" - these gorgeous scenes of a futuristic (Art Deco, of course)<BR>
city...with biplanes flitting through the sky.  :o)<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT - (since there seems to be a couple of new people on the<BR>
list, it means 'Crochety Old Fart In Training')<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - Still at work...still not told _what_ to think, so my nutty<BR>
opinions are my own.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:42:49 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Weren't the aliens sort of elephant like?  Talk about recoil tolerance.<BR>
Of<BR>
> cause, the .600 nitro express or .577 tyrannosaurus generate some hefty<BR>
> recoil, and have been used by any number of professional hunters for<BR>
> dangerous game in close cover.  IIRC, the Tyrannosaurus generates<BR>
something<BR>
> like 11,300 ft-lbs (15,320 Joules).  Of course it does have 3 mercury<BR>
recoil<BR>
> reducers.<BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm.  How do we do in T4 land?  Assume ideal barrel length (I don't have<BR>
> FFS2 handy, so I'll fix this later) a 10 lb rifle doing SQRT(15320)/10.5 D<BR>
> damage = 11.8, call it 12D damage (how do we handle damage fractions<BR>
> anyway?).  BD soaks up 8D damage, so the 'driver' take 4D (3D with shoot<BR>
> through).  BD wearing merc could be in trouble against TL7 big game hunter<BR>
> with .577 tyrannosaurus.  The BG hunter will be vulnerable to all kinds of<BR>
> nasty goodies the mercs will have, but our BGH will be able to keep the<BR>
> mercs from getting too cocky fighting 'low tech' adversaries.<BR>
<BR>
This is my point about 'modern' armours being unable to keep up with<BR>
man-portable weapons.<BR>
<BR>
<good stuff snipped><BR>
<BR>
> There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
> They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
> propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
> (915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4<BR>
damage<BR>
> is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that can kill<BR>
> battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
That energy is about 4 kJ less than that of a TL5-6 Boys ATR, if good old<BR>
table 44 of FFS2 is to be believed. Has anyone got a guns reference for how<BR>
many cm of hard steel a Boys ATR would penetrate ?<BR>
<BR>
> (FFS2 experts, please correct my math if I've made a grievous error)<BR>
><BR>
> Anyway, just some musings on big bore stuff.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Your other option is to militarise something like the PuRSe, and have a main<BR>
armament of 40mm rockets. This is a variant on arming troops with RPGs as a<BR>
standard arm.<BR>
<BR>
The other problem is with laser-guided rounds - a TL8 Striker units tend to<BR>
have laser-designated artillery, and you can solve the detector/aerosol<BR>
problem by 'kinking' rounds (dont aim the rounds at the spot. Aim exactly 20<BR>
yards beyond the spot).<BR>
<BR>
This pulls us back to a basic problem, which is that "battle dress" is going<BR>
to need some tweaking to work.<BR>
<BR>
My off-the-cuff thinking involves some sort of massive handwaving to allow<BR>
better-than-expected performance of TL9+ body armour against solid rounds,<BR>
which will let us avoid having to push the ratings of lasers and such up.<BR>
<BR>
Then we just have to deal with man-portable HEAP rounds.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:03:53 -0400<BR>
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 20:28:23 -0700<BR>
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
> Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
> <BR>
> on 7/17/00 7:41 PM, David P. Summers at summers@alum.mit.edu wrote:<BR>
> > I'm actually thinking of letting characters who have missed<BR>
> > a death roll (this is GT) but get stuck immediately into<BR>
> > a cyrotube or automed, to have a chance of recovery back<BR>
> > at a hospital.  (And high tech combat is already sufficiently<BR>
> > deadly).<BR>
> <BR>
> I use a drug called NeuroStasis, that help preserve the nervous tissue of<BR>
> the recently 'dead' so that a revival can be tried later with higher tech<BR>
> gear.  The downside?  Loss of INT and/edu EDU.  The character cheats death,<BR>
> but he's just not a bright as he used to be.<BR>
<BR>
	So how does a drug get distributed throughout the nervous system (or<BR>
any other part of the body) when the recipient is dead?<BR>
<BR>
	IIRC Space Opera (the RPG) had a similar drug for preservation of the<BR>
dead body, with an auto injector that went off when you "died". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
    Thomas Jones-Low<BR>
    tjoneslo@together.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:03:29 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
At 02:21 PM 7/18/00 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>On Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:45 PM<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan said,<BR>
><BR>
> > This reminds me of a song I better not sing.  Because if people were upset<BR>
> > about Ditzie it would really get them.<BR>
><BR>
>Then, Dear Lady, could you sing it off list?<BR>
<BR>
Ditto.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Umm, ObTrav:  I imagine that cultural differences between worlds can put a<BR>
>crimp in trade in pop cultural items such as music.<BR>
><BR>
>"What do you mean my entire cargo is being seized as lewd material!  It's<BR>
>selling like hotcakes back at core."<BR>
><BR>
>G.D.D.<BR>
>Thing under the stairs,<BR>
>Minion of Shechemist & GothBunny,<BR>
>Grand Master of the Electron Flow.<BR>
>===========================<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:46:42 -0400<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
<BR>
Does anyone have any suggestions about gaining some insight into the history<BR>
of the slide rule's antecedent, Napier's Bones?  The best I have been able<BR>
to find regards Napier's Bones is in the orginal three volume edition of the<BR>
Encyclopedia Britannica.  Any earlier historical references would be<BR>
appreciated, especially if show that Napier's Bones predate1600.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:46:46 -0500<BR>
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
At 04:05 PM 7/18/00 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
> >They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
> >propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
> >(915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4<BR>
>damage<BR>
> >is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that can kill<BR>
> >battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
><BR>
>There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
>being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
>heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
><BR>
>David<BR>
<BR>
Since that leads to a porn site, I doubt that is the correct URL.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Richard Wilson<BR>
<BR>
rtwilson@rollanet.org<BR>
<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
Humanity is not something we should aspire to. It is something we should<BR>
strive to overcome.<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:29:34 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Dangerous Ground (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
<BR>
At 05:45 PM 7/18/00, you wrote:<BR>
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Thing wrote:<BR>
> > My cousin was killed by a moose.<BR>
> ><BR>
>This reminds me of a song I better not sing.  Because if people were upset<BR>
>about Ditzie it would really get them.<BR>
><BR>
>******************************************************************************<BR>
>Kiri Aradia Morgan                                  93!  Thou Art God<BR>
<BR>
         The worst thing, Kiri, is that I know which song you mean... and <BR>
yeah, in this mixed company, people would get upset.<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt	<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:58:29 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
I asked,<BR>
>So, time for a revision?<<BR>
and,<BR>
>It's still a bit rough arround the edges I'll repost when I have a thought<BR>
out and pretified version.<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<<BR>
<BR>
answered.<BR>
<BR>
So I respond,<BR>
<BR>
Ummmm...yeah, like that.<BR>
:-P<BR>
Looks like a place to start and all.<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:42:46 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
At 2:52 PM -0800 7/18/0, Neal C. Oldham wrote:<BR>
>> I'm not sure this is true at all.  The US is probably stronger than it<BR>
>> has been regarding other contries (esp Japan).  It certain is as<BR>
>> strong, if not stronger, than it was during the 70's in influence,<BR>
>> military power, and economic strength.<BR>
><BR>
>This is true for the _specific_ era of the 70's since it was then our<BR>
>total dependence on imported petroleum was so painfully obvious.  However,<BR>
>compared to the 80's, I think a vast decline is obvious.<BR>
<BR>
The oil shock was something that came in during that period,<BR>
but the view of the US existed before the oil shock.<BR>
<BR>
It was when people were saying the US had<BR>
to regard the USSR as equal (or even, in the long run<BR>
superior) and "realpolitik" said that US power was waning<BR>
and we had to recongnize our limits.  That was with more<BR>
justification than I see your similar arguements and it proved<BR>
to be unfounded.<BR>
><BR>
>> The US has pulled back from the world stage not because it was unable<BR>
>> to project as much power, but because it no longer saw the necessity.<BR>
><BR>
>Has the US pulled back from the world stage or stepped onto it more<BR>
>strongly than ever?  Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo, to a lesser<BR>
>extent sub-Saharan Africa and East Timor, the ongoing massive commitment<BR>
>of troops in Korea...IMHO there's no way to quantify this as a pullback.<BR>
<BR>
Well, this is similar to a view that some friends have expressed<BR>
to me (and appears on a number of writtings) that the US must be weak<BR>
because it was too imperialistic to pull back on its own.  The<BR>
same view that regarded the USSR as providing a "useful check "<BR>
on the US.  I don't share that view.  This view must either find<BR>
reasons why the US was "forced" back or accept that US policy was<BR>
not an Imperialistic one.  (To their credit, a few of those<BR>
I know who held that view have agreed that it appears to have<BR>
been wrong).<BR>
<BR>
The US did, in fact, pull back from Kuwait, whe<BR>
could have run over Saddam.  We also have generally pulled back<BR>
from confrontation with Russia (we have cut our troops in<BR>
general, our commitment to NATO is less, we haven't agreessively<BR>
tried to move bases up into new territories, we have even given<BR>
up a big base in the Philipines, we not tried to carve up Russia<BR>
more (we even oppose Chenyan (sp?) suceession), etc. etc.), now<BR>
some have tried to find other reasons for each of these, but that<BR>
is just spin.  The US didn't even go into Somalia, Haiti, or<BR>
Kosovo for any nationalitic gain (in fact it was the lack of<BR>
self interest that caused many to oppose the acts>.)<BR>
<BR>
The fact is, the US defense budget is significantly lower, in<BR>
real terms, than it has been in a long time.  That is the most<BR>
fundamental expression that the US is indeed pulling back.  OTOH,<BR>
I see no<BR>
><BR>
>> > And this  at  a  time  when  the<BR>
>> >federal deficit, caused  by  'imperial'  commitments,  is  at  an<BR>
>> >astronomical level.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Actually, while the deficit is high, the budget is in surplus. The<BR>
>> suation vis a vis that was worse during the Vietnam war....<BR>
><BR>
>Because the US actually spent enough money then to maintain a viable<BR>
>military?<BR>
<BR>
Depends on what you mean by viable.  The military we have is<BR>
viable for our post cold war needs and is an expression of the<BR>
US view that it can relax.  OTOH, the US economy is quite productive<BR>
and could produce an effort that would beat the lower<BR>
points in the cold war (and many of the higher ones).<BR>
><BR>
>> >Worse, Europe is moving towards a unified environment, instead of<BR>
>> >just being a playground for the superpowers.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Of course Europe has never been shy about objecting to US policies<BR>
>> they don't like.  The EU is more unified, but when England, Germany,<BR>
>> and France agreed on something (and they complise most of the "pull"<BR>
>> in Europe) they had no problem coordinating.  OTOH, when they don't<BR>
>> agree today they still will work at cross purposes (EU or no).  The<BR>
>> situation in Bosnia was suppose to be this grand test for the unified<BR>
>> Europe as a proto-superpower.<BR>
><BR>
>Which they completely screwed up.  The UN had to hand the whole operation<BR>
>over to NATO (primarily the US); at no time was the idea of handing<BR>
>peacekeeping over to a EU force seriously considered.<BR>
<BR>
Which is one reason that the idea the EU pushing the US into some sort<BR>
of decline is quite debatable.<BR>
><BR>
>> >Such an environment<BR>
>> >fosters  a  degree   of   protectionism   leading   to   economic<BR>
>> >isolationism.  Many economists have identified this as a  partial<BR>
>> >disintegration of the world economy (by 'disintegration' I do not<BR>
>> >mean destructive, merely dis-integration).  The existence of  the<BR>
>> >NAFTA agreement can be seen as a reaction to this disintegration,<BR>
>> >it is a "Fortress North  America"  in  response  to  a  "Fortress<BR>
>> >Europe".<BR>
>><BR>
>> Isolationism isn't occuring because America is declining.  It has<BR>
>> always been there.  The only difference is that, without communism, it<BR>
>> is harder to convince people that the US needs to get involved with<BR>
>> "foreign entanglements".<BR>
><BR>
>I have to agree with you there.  The US has been historically extremely<BR>
>isolationist; communism was a fluke.<BR>
><BR>
>> >Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
>> >However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
>> >due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
>> >will end by the end of 2000.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Except the US economy is also more healthy than the European<BR>
>> and Japanese economies that you cite as being about to displace<BR>
>> it.  I suppose one can try and find "external factors" the only<BR>
>> help the US, and ignore such engines as IT sectors, but that<BR>
>> is pretty contrived at best.  The fact is that one is hard pressed<BR>
>> to find fundamental weakness in the US economy that are any<BR>
>> greater than during other periods where the US was quite able to<BR>
>> sustain the cold war effort.<BR>
><BR>
>I can't agree with this at all.  The US economy, from a defense point of<BR>
>view, is in shambles.  The vast majority of our manufacturing capacity was<BR>
>exported to Mexico, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc., etc. and the<BR>
>US retains very little in the way of heavy industry.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure that as much has been exported as you think.  In any<BR>
case, the US is, in fact, taking advantage of what people in those<BR>
countries want.  One may argue about how it affects the working man<BR>
(though with such low unemployment that isn't much of a problem<BR>
at the moment) but it certainly isn't pulling the US down.<BR>
<BR>
>  We've lossed lots of<BR>
>capabilities in this area to even countries such as the Netherlands.  I<BR>
>think we're currently third in overall steel production worldwide<BR>
<BR>
We dropped out of first in steel production well before the end of the<BR>
cold war.  It certainly isn't evidence of a declince since the<BR>
end of the cold war.  The bottom line is that anyone can make<BR>
steel these days.  It isn't a big deal.<BR>
<BR>
>(somewhat offset by our capability in aluminum and composite production),<BR>
>and our military designs are ridiculously complex, expensive, and in many<BR>
>cases (e.g. the Patriot system) totally ineffective.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the view in Europe is that, unless they can modernize<BR>
their armed forces to the level of the US, they won't be first rate<BR>
powers.  The weapons are quite effective (thought relying air power<BR>
alone remains a temping mistake).  The Patriot is interesting because<BR>
the arguements that it was totally ineffective are just as much spin<BR>
as the original arguments that it was almost totally effective.<BR>
><BR>
>The Japanese GNP may not be growing terribly fast, but the fact remains<BR>
>they maintain a large trade surplus with the US, as do China and most East<BR>
>Asian nations.<BR>
<BR>
Of course those trade surpluses also predate the end of the cold<BR>
war.  We have been running them for a long time.<BR>
<BR>
>Our shipbuilding capability is considerably lesser than it was even twenty<BR>
>years ago.<BR>
<BR>
Because shipbuilding is becoming obsolete.<BR>
<BR>
> At the rate urban sprawl is accelerating, combined with<BR>
>prolonged drought conditions in the South, several experts predict that<BR>
>the US will be a net *importer* of food in less than thirty years.<BR>
<BR>
Predictions that should be take with more than one grain of salt.<BR>
<BR>
>  We<BR>
>already import our semiconductors from Taiwan and Malaysia, the gun<BR>
>barrels for the M1 from Germany, and our oil from Saudi Arabia.  We are<BR>
>increasingly dependent on imports from China, South Africa, and Russia for<BR>
>strategically vital elements such as Cr, Mo, V, La, and Nb.<BR>
<BR>
And we export other things.  This isn't a weak economy.  It is<BR>
a global economy.  In a gobal economy you don't make everything<BR>
yourself.  You make something things and export others.  We<BR>
make CPU's, the Japanese make (some) memory chips (the idea that<BR>
we "import our semiconductors" is way overstated).<BR>
><BR>
>Also, our population has shrank considerably _vis a vis_ China and India,<BR>
>two of our more likely opponents in a major conflict.<BR>
<BR>
India is more likely to fight China than us.  Neither are going<BR>
to be<BR>
><BR>
>IT is cute, but not very useful from a military point of view.  What the<BR>
>hell are we going to do, throw AOL CDs at enemy infantry?<BR>
<BR>
The point is, it inhances the productivity of the US and provides<BR>
exports.  (thoght it was also useful, both in the weapons themselves<BR>
and in the use of technology to design weapons, in Desert Storm.<BR>
Attempts to pick as single instances notwithstanding)<BR>
<BR>
>Sorry for getting a little riled up, but as a draft-age American male, I<BR>
>thought it was relevant to me.<BR>
<BR>
And, as someone who has been around a while, I can tell you I've<BR>
heard it all before (it is sort of like the perenial predictions<BR>
that Apple will go out of business :-).<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________________________<BR>
David P. Summers, SETI Institute<BR>
Mail Stop 239-4<BR>
NASA Ames Research Center<BR>
Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000<BR>
<BR>
650-604-6206<BR>
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:11:16 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
> The US did, in fact, pull back from Kuwait, whe<BR>
> could have run over Saddam.<BR>
<BR>
Not if you were smart. Saddam still being there provides a backup paper<BR>
tiger for later use.<BR>
<BR>
>We also have generally pulled back<BR>
> from confrontation with Russia (we have cut our troops in<BR>
> general, our commitment to NATO is less, we haven't agreessively<BR>
> tried to move bases up into new territories, we have even given<BR>
> up a big base in the Philipines, we not tried to carve up Russia<BR>
> more (we even oppose Chenyan (sp?) suceession), etc. etc.),<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you have tried to expand NATO into the Eastern Bloc and<BR>
aggressively moved in with no calming period into a politically unstable<BR>
area and risk alienating Russia.<BR>
<BR>
>now<BR>
> some have tried to find other reasons for each of these, but that<BR>
> is just spin.  The US didn't even go into Somalia, Haiti, or<BR>
> Kosovo for any nationalitic gain (in fact it was the lack of<BR>
> self interest that caused many to oppose the acts>.)<BR>
><BR>
Actually US involvement in places like Kosovo is against UN agreements, the<BR>
NATO charter and US law in general. If I remember the Canadian papers<BR>
correctly, this was another case of a single man throwing all agreements and<BR>
the US constitution away and doing what he wants. US democracy is<BR>
meaningless because it is unenforced and would have the police and army to<BR>
back it up if people objected. Americans have no respect for law or<BR>
democracy. I am sorry if this is harsh but it is exasperating for outsiders<BR>
to realise how little the US press actually covers. My friend in the US says<BR>
that the papers there don't cover international news and the news you get is<BR>
"my country right or wrong" jingoistic one sided pap. He said even the<BR>
Washington Post and New York Times are disappointing. Try listening to or<BR>
reading Canadian or British news. Any political stripe is ok.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:30:08 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
>> The US did, in fact, pull back from Kuwait, whe<BR>
>> could have run over Saddam.<BR>
><BR>
>Not if you were smart. Saddam still being there provides a backup paper<BR>
>tiger for later use.<BR>
<BR>
<Shrug><BR>
<BR>
One can always come up with hidden reasons why the US did anything<BR>
that "appears" to be restraint.  This is true<BR>
even if the US is, in fact, not as agressive as one would<BR>
believe.  There really is no way to argue against it.<BR>
><BR>
>>We also have generally pulled back<BR>
>> from confrontation with Russia (we have cut our troops in<BR>
>> general, our commitment to NATO is less, we haven't agreessively<BR>
>> tried to move bases up into new territories, we have even given<BR>
>> up a big base in the Philipines, we not tried to carve up Russia<BR>
>> more (we even oppose Chenyan (sp?) suceession), etc. etc.),<BR>
><BR>
>Actually, you have tried to expand NATO into the Eastern Bloc and<BR>
>aggressively moved in with no calming period into a politically unstable<BR>
>area and risk alienating Russia.<BR>
<BR>
The point is the Russia really was too weak to stop us and even<BR>
if they held a grudge, they would never be able to recover to<BR>
the level of the USSR.  The fact is the US was interested in the<BR>
stability of the area an the views of Russia and held back<BR>
doing what it might have done if it has taken an agressive<BR>
posture.<BR>
><BR>
>>now<BR>
>> some have tried to find other reasons for each of these, but that<BR>
>> is just spin.  The US didn't even go into Somalia, Haiti, or<BR>
>> Kosovo for any nationalitic gain (in fact it was the lack of<BR>
>> self interest that caused many to oppose the acts>.)<BR>
>><BR>
>Actually US involvement in places like Kosovo is against UN agreements, the<BR>
>NATO charter and US law in general. If I remember the Canadian papers<BR>
>correctly, this was another case of a single man throwing all agreements and<BR>
>the US constitution away and doing what he wants.<BR>
<BR>
You mean a single alliance of countries.  The US was hardly the sole<BR>
(or even the most enthusiatic) participant.<BR>
<BR>
> US democracy is<BR>
>meaningless because it is unenforced and would have the police and army to<BR>
>back it up if people objected.<BR>
<BR>
I'm not clear.  You are saying that even if a majority of the<BR>
American people had objected to the policy in Kosovo Clinton would<BR>
have called out the army to prevent them from voting against him?<BR>
I see not justification for that at all.  It smacks of claiming<BR>
that people are force to follow a policy because you don't want<BR>
to admit they don't agree with you.<BR>
<BR>
> Americans have no respect for law or<BR>
>democracy. I am sorry if this is harsh but it is exasperating for outsiders<BR>
>to realise how little the US press actually covers. My friend in the US says<BR>
>that the papers there don't cover international news and the news you get is<BR>
>"my country right or wrong" jingoistic one sided pap. He said even the<BR>
>Washington Post and New York Times are disappointing. Try listening to or<BR>
>reading Canadian or British news. Any political stripe is ok.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I am well aware of what Canadian press (in Buffalo we<BR>
can get Toronto papers and stations) and British press (the<BR>
BBC) cover.  The US press is just as critical of itself as<BR>
British and Canadian press are.  (One of the biggest ironies<BR>
is when Canadian express nationalistic pride by claiming their<BR>
lack of nationalism makes them a better country).  Foreign<BR>
coverage of the US is, in fact, filled with their own biases<BR>
about what the US is about.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:31:30 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this whole thread is getting off topic.  I should stop<BR>
here....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:47:25 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: The Llellewyloly<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no> asks:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>does anyone have more information on this race than what is<BR>
>in GT:SM?<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks<BR>
>Tommy Grav<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
 My version of them can be found on my website. It's not complete in terms of <BR>
CharGen info, but the long-winded text stuff is all there.<BR>
<BR>
 Someone else came zipping through the list some six months ago suggesting <BR>
they were writing a version for GURPS, but I have no idea if anything came of <BR>
it. I still haven't gotten around to offering my version to JTAS, either...<BR>
<BR>
Jim Kundert<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
http://member.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html<BR>
(then follow the "essays" link)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:07:45 +0200<BR>
From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@copyleft.de><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
Moin Mike Demetro,<BR>
<BR>
> US democracy is<BR>
> meaningless because it is unenforced and would have the police and army to<BR>
> back it up if people objected. Americans have no respect for law or<BR>
> democracy.<BR>
<BR>
  in fact - none of the modern western so called democracies is real.<BR>
<BR>
  The greeks had several systems called democracy, and as distinct as<BR>
  they had been, they shared a common law : shards law (translation problem)<BR>
<BR>
  Any free citicen could call for a 'shards law' against anybody who had<BR>
  control of a public authority. If this 'shards law' went well, the polican<BR>
  !HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY! within a day.<BR>
<BR>
  Non of the so called western democracy has a law of throwing a politican<BR>
  out of the country by a public ballot. So none has the real right to claim<BR>
  to be a democracy!<BR>
<BR>
  Never mind the ballot - If ballot would change anything, it would<BR>
  become interdicted by government martial law. e.g. as seen in Chile,<BR>
  Nicaragua and countless other countries in the history.<BR>
<BR>
    Crime is the Privilege of the State :<BR>
<BR>
    What is permitted to the State is forbidden to the individual. Such<BR>
    is the maxim of all governments. Machiavelli said it, and history<BR>
    as well as the practice of all contemporary governments bear him<BR>
    out on that point. Crime is the necessary condition of the very<BR>
    existence of the State, and it therefore constitutes its exclusive<BR>
    monopoly, from which it follows that the individual who dares commit<BR>
    a crime is guilty in a two-fold sense: first, he is guilty against<BR>
    human conscience, and, above all, he is guilty against the State in<BR>
    arrogating to himself one of its most precious privileges.<BR>
<BR>
Bye Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
mailto:kraehe@copyleft.de             UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.14'UNZ+1'<BR>
http://www.xml-edifact.org/           CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2783<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2784</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2784<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Striker questions<BR>
unsubscribe<BR>
Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
The New Era<BR>
RE: Hexagons<BR>
re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
RE: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: Declining societies (not long anymore)<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:04:59 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Striker questions<BR>
...<BR>
>An MRL has the same characteristics as a mortar.  My quick<BR>
>review of the Striker design sequences does not indicate<BR>
>any prohibition on direct fire by mortars.  Accordingly, an<BR>
>MRL may conduct direct fire if it has direct fire fire<BR>
>control.  Its rate of fire is its number of tubes.  See the<BR>
>autofire bonus table.  <BR>
<BR>
  See: Rule 25, B1, p.40.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:03:17 +1000<BR>
From: Timothy Minahan <timothy.minahan@scc.edu.au><BR>
Subject: unsubscribe<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:02:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
<BR>
OK I am going to answer this and drag it back to Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
> I'm not clear.  You are saying that even if a majority of the<BR>
> American people had objected to the policy in Kosovo Clinton would<BR>
> have called out the army to prevent them from voting against him?<BR>
> I see not justification for that at all.  It smacks of claiming<BR>
> that people are force to follow a policy because you don't want<BR>
> to admit they don't agree with you.<BR>
><BR>
Nope, I don't think that that could ever happen. Nixon escalated bombing in<BR>
Vietnam after the laws allowing US involvement were repealed. I forget my US<BR>
history in terms of the actual bill. I simply meant it was frightening to<BR>
think how shaky US democracy is. It is not that the government would use<BR>
full force over every litle thing. It is just that they can railroad anyone<BR>
questioning the legality of unilateral decisions. Only a single US senator<BR>
spoke up over Kosovo. If the American ruling class WERE actually threatened<BR>
they would pull no punches, however, law or no law. The Seattle police's use<BR>
of not only tear gas but concussion grenades recently was alarming. There<BR>
were a bunch of vegetarian tree hugging hippies dressed as turtles blocking<BR>
the front entrance of a building and they were  dumped on because a couple<BR>
nearby windows were broken. *sigh*<BR>
<BR>
> Foreign<BR>
> coverage of the US is, in fact, filled with their own biases<BR>
> about what the US is about.<BR>
><BR>
That is doubtless true and unavoidable.<BR>
<BR>
When I ran a Twilight 2000 second edition game for a short while after even<BR>
second edition was out of date, I made a few timeline adjustments. Being a<BR>
student of W.W.II Japanese history, I predicted a little after the fall of<BR>
the eastern bloc that the real danger in Russia was military cantonment. I<BR>
figured a government that could not control its army would lose the loyalty<BR>
to individual commanders who would attach themselves to cities in exchange<BR>
for food and supplies. What you could end up with is a Kremlin unable to<BR>
control the army that is powerful, loyal to local generals and increasingly<BR>
aggressive and adventurous. You could go three routes with this:<BR>
<BR>
a) Mercenary armies that pack the punch of a hefty percentage of the USSR.<BR>
b) Roman style dictators, generals, civil wars and bloodbaths abroad.<BR>
c) A W.W.II Japanese style army that is distant from its civil government<BR>
and entirely uncontrolled except by its own local leaders.<BR>
<BR>
They are unlikely but to have one of them occur is plausible enough. I<BR>
pursued c) but b) was tempting and a) would have made a good mercenaries<BR>
game outside of a T2K framework. This can alter T2300 in interesting ways<BR>
too, but doesn't have to.<BR>
<BR>
Using this as an analogy would give an interesting twist to a MT backdrop or<BR>
a CT/GT/T4 campaign during the long night or MT background.<BR>
<BR>
I hope this sparks some neat discussions.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:26:35 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
on 7/18/00 5:03 PM, Thom Jones-Low at tjoneslo@together.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> So how does a drug get distributed throughout the nervous system (or<BR>
> any other part of the body) when the recipient is dead?<BR>
<BR>
Typically, death in this case is not instant death (very rare).  Usually,<BR>
this is a mortal wound with insufficient local medical care to give the<BR>
'heroic' life support required.  NeuroStasis is given as part of the regimen<BR>
of trying to keep the patient alive (when everything looks like it is<BR>
failing). There are still enough systems functioning to distribute the<BR>
drug/nanoge/whatever.<BR>
<BR>
A completely dead character is dead<BR>
> <BR>
> IIRC Space Opera (the RPG) had a similar drug for preservation of the<BR>
> dead body, with an auto injector that went off when you "died".<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:42:58 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
on 7/18/00 5:42 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
>> Hmmm.  How do we do in T4 land?  Assume ideal barrel length (I don't have<BR>
>> FFS2 handy, so I'll fix this later) a 10 lb rifle doing SQRT(15320)/10.5 D<BR>
>> damage = 11.8, call it 12D damage (how do we handle damage fractions<BR>
>> anyway?).  BD soaks up 8D damage, so the 'driver' take 4D (3D with shoot<BR>
>> through).  BD wearing merc could be in trouble against TL7 big game hunter<BR>
>> with .577 tyrannosaurus.  The BG hunter will be vulnerable to all kinds of<BR>
>> nasty goodies the mercs will have, but our BGH will be able to keep the<BR>
>> mercs from getting too cocky fighting 'low tech' adversaries.<BR>
> <BR>
> This is my point about 'modern' armours being unable to keep up with<BR>
> man-portable weapons.<BR>
<BR>
Bear in mind, these weapons are extreme examples.  Yes they are possible.<BR>
General military issue?  Very unlikely.  These weapons have very heavy<BR>
recoil, are expensive, and are generally of very limited range.  Ammunition<BR>
for these guns falls into the $5 per round range, and guns are around $5000<BR>
and designed to survive hundreds, not tens of thousands of rounds.<BR>
> <BR>
> <good stuff snipped><BR>
> <BR>
>> There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
>> They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
>> propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
>> (915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4<BR>
> damage<BR>
>> is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that can kill<BR>
>> battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
>> <BR>
> <BR>
> That energy is about 4 kJ less than that of a TL5-6 Boys ATR, if good old<BR>
> table 44 of FFS2 is to be believed. Has anyone got a guns reference for how<BR>
> many cm of hard steel a Boys ATR would penetrate ?<BR>
<BR>
No clue, but the SLAP rounr for the .50BMG (M903) is rated as penetrating<BR>
1.9cm of hard armor plate at 1500 meters.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 22:47:36 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
<BR>
on 7/18/00 6:46 PM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone have any suggestions about gaining some insight into the history<BR>
> of the slide rule's antecedent, Napier's Bones?  The best I have been able<BR>
> to find regards Napier's Bones is in the orginal three volume edition of the<BR>
> Encyclopedia Britannica.  Any earlier historical references would be<BR>
> appreciated, especially if show that Napier's Bones predate1600.<BR>
> <BR>
> Dan<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
see <BR>
http://www.ce.vt.edu/evd/FullScreens/adj%20Lee%20-%20Napier's%20Bones.jpg<BR>
for a nice photo.<BR>
<BR>
also http://www.cut-the-knot.com/blue/Napier.html<BR>
<BR>
for starters.  You too can have Napier's bones<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:56:15 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:43:03 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
Charles Collin wrote<BR>
><BR>
> Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
> having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
> experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
Here's the paint method of my Java HexBEan :<BR>
<BR>
    public void paint(Graphics g) <BR>
    {<BR>
      int w  = getWidth() ;<BR>
      int h = getHeight() ;<BR>
<BR>
      // generate array of x values and then array of y values <BR>
	int xs[] = { w/4, w*3/4, w, w*3/4, w/4, 0, w/4 } ;<BR>
	int ys[] = { 0, 0, h/2, h, h, h/2, 0 } ;<BR>
<BR>
    	g.setColor(color);<BR>
      g.fillPolygon( xs, ys, xs.length );<BR>
    }<BR>
<BR>
It's a very simple version, but should get you started<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:28:39 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: re: Newbie post -- archives of recent TML posts?<BR>
<BR>
At 17:45 -0400 18/7/00, Viktor Haag wrote:<BR>
>I checked the archive mentioned in the FAQ, but the files listed<BR>
>seemed to halt after 1999 -- where are the 2000 archives?<BR>
<BR>
Digest Time stamp is still 1999 - I assume it's a Y2k feature of the majordomo?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:08:59 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
Pat Connaughton wrote :<BR>
> Greeting Gentlepersons<BR>
> (that should be sufficently correct to avoid any fiery response)<BR>
<BR>
How dare you accuse me of being gentle !<BR>
<grin><BR>
<BR>
> One of our brethren had recently seen the new movie:<BR>
> "X-Men" and his opinion was "not a bad movie. Needs<BR>
> work:". However, his comments in re: traveller brought<BR>
> up the following question: Has anyone created or used<BR>
> superheroe types as foils or NPC's in their campaigns?<BR>
<BR>
Seeing as an Imperial Marine in battle-dress with a PGMP-15 can probably<BR>
take out most of today's superheroes, we don't really need superheroes in<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Then again, even Marines have their heroes.<BR>
<BR>
Like one of my characters who through a pure fluke detected an approaching<BR>
enemy commando in a high-stealth chameleon battle-suit without optical<BR>
enhancement, and through equally good luck killed the commando with a single<BR>
shot to the head.<BR>
<BR>
None of the rest of his fire-team had seen the enemy, and none of them could<BR>
believe he'd killed the commando with a single shot when he could hardly see<BR>
him.<BR>
<BR>
Shortly afterward, one of the green troops he was cadreing for made a<BR>
mistake with a grenade. With some more luck he managed to kick the grenade<BR>
out of the trench, and it landed right next to another stealthed commando,<BR>
stunning the commando long enough for fire from a neighbouring trench to<BR>
take him out !<BR>
<BR>
He became known as "Dead-eye" and as the stories of the incident spread,<BR>
just his presnce with a group of soldiers caused them to perform better than<BR>
they would nornmally...<BR>
<BR>
> I know that there is said to be a version of Traveller called<BR>
> "GT"<BR>
<BR>
Heresy !<BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
> BTW, anyone caring to discuss single malt scotch, please<BR>
> contact me at your pleasure.<BR>
<BR>
You don't _discuss_ scotch, you savour it !<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:56:21 -0700<BR>
From: "Neal Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
Hello,<BR>
<BR>
I'm interested in finding out the correspondences between GDW TLs and GURPS<BR>
TLs.  I expect that this information is in the GT book, but it will be about<BR>
a week or so before my copy arrives.  Thanks to anyone who can provide this<BR>
information.  :)<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 05:30:49 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
> I'm interested in finding out the correspondences between GDW TLs and<BR>
GURPS<BR>
> TLs.<BR>
<BR>
Because GURPS is generic, the TLs aren't given a predicted era past the<BR>
present dat. The Traveller TLs make a couple huge jumps in the first couple<BR>
levels and then are a lot more precise.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS is hard to explain. It is basically:<BR>
<BR>
0 Stone Age<BR>
1 Bronze Age<BR>
2 Iron Age<BR>
3 Medieval<BR>
4 Renaissance<BR>
5 Industrial<BR>
6 WWI & WWII<BR>
7 Latter 20th Century<BR>
8 Spacefaring<BR>
9 Starfaring<BR>
10-15 Various grades of hi tech<BR>
16+ Godlike tech<BR>
<BR>
It is easier to just give a conversion:<BR>
<BR>
Traveller    GURPS<BR>
0                1-3<BR>
1                4<BR>
2                5<BR>
3                5<BR>
4                5<BR>
5                6<BR>
6                6<BR>
7                7<BR>
8                8<BR>
9                9<BR>
10              9<BR>
11              9<BR>
12              10<BR>
13              10<BR>
14              11<BR>
15              12<BR>
16              13<BR>
<BR>
I hope this helps. All the best,<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:42:07 -0700<BR>
From: Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
Via electronic medium on 7/18/00 3:52 PM, nco@its.caltech.edu issued forth:<BR>
<BR>
>>> Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
>>> However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
>>> due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
>>> will end by the end of 2000.<BR>
<BR>
Please, stop with trowing out numbers with nothing to back it up with. How<BR>
convenient that our economy is "due" to take a nosedive 'by the year 2000.'<BR>
According to "Economist Magazine?" Were you aware that there are a hundred<BR>
such rags, and that a very small few would agree with that article (assuming<BR>
it says what you describe?) Or do just skip over the analyses that do not<BR>
fit your preconceptions?<BR>
<BR>
Please enlighten us -- what are these "external factors" that are<BR>
'artificially' propping-up what is easily the largest economic expansion of<BR>
all time? You actually put Japan in there as an economy that could unseat<BR>
U.S. economic superiority? Do you know anything about Japan at all? They are<BR>
still in the midst of a serious recession -- longer and deeper than any in<BR>
U.S. history since the Great Depression. Oh yes, these guys are taking over!<BR>
Japan's government is riddled with gross corruption at every level, stealing<BR>
away from the Japanese people whatever gains are made.<BR>
<BR>
> The US economy, from a defense point of<BR>
> view, is in shambles.<BR>
> The vast majority of our manufacturing capacity was<BR>
> exported to Mexico, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc., etc. and the<BR>
> US retains very little in the way of heavy industry.<BR>
<BR>
This is the most outlandish thing I've heard in a long time, and the reason<BR>
why I felt the need to respond to this message. No folks, it is simply<BR>
untrue that "the US retains very little in the way of heavy industry." This<BR>
sounds like isolationist/anti-WTO rhetoric. It is an easily verifiable<BR>
predicament, the supposed loss of U.S. industry! BTW: those U.S. companies<BR>
that build additional factories in foreign countries (no doubt for cheap<BR>
labor), you know they still OWN those factories, and the revenue that comes<BR>
from the sale of those products? These are U.S. companies, regardless of<BR>
where their plants are located. That money goes into the U.S. economy, and<BR>
corporations still bear the better part of the nation's tax burden. ($1.8<BR>
trillion in 1999.) Again, your argument sounds like "workers unite!"<BR>
populist propaganda.<BR>
<BR>
> The Japanese GNP may not be growing terribly fast, but the fact remains<BR>
> they maintain a large trade surplus with the US, as do China and most East<BR>
> Asian nations.<BR>
<BR>
Of course they do! You take that to mean that they are somehow out ahead of<BR>
the U.S.?! The reason why Chinese people do not buy from us in the same<BR>
numbers that we buy from them is very simple: THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY!<BR>
Same with Japan -- while having a strong economic base (even if currently in<BR>
a long recession) the U.S. economy is an order of magnitude more liquid. And<BR>
that's what causes people to buy products. Our various trade 'deficits' are<BR>
testimony that, beyond any monolithic National entity, the *people* of the<BR>
U.S. have plenty of cash to spend.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, the whole idea of "trade deficits" is a key part of isolationist,<BR>
anti-global demagoguery. They want us all to believe that this is a zero sum<BR>
game. (The only way for you to win is if somebody loses.) Therefore, we MUST<BR>
erect massive walls around North America and do no business outside the<BR>
wall! (Or, at least, only business skewed heavily in 'our' favor through the<BR>
use of exuberant tariffs/excise taxes, etc.) It is the only way to "win" a<BR>
zero sum game.<BR>
<BR>
Which is perfectly fine logic. It's just that there are other, more<BR>
beneficial strategies. (See: Murray Rothbard, "Power And Market"; John von<BR>
Neumann & Oskar Morgenstern, "Theory Of Games And Economic Behavior"; Donald<BR>
A. Walker, "Advances In General Equilibrium Theory"; Phillips, McManus, &<BR>
Nelson, "Banking and the Business Cycle,"; and Buckminster Fuller, "Critical<BR>
Path," "Synergetics")<BR>
<BR>
If the people of China eventually become liquid enough, which can only<BR>
happen if there is open trade with them, they will be able (and willing) to<BR>
buy goods owned by U.S. companies, among others. The flow of both currency<BR>
*and* utility will travel in both directions, in all directions. This cannot<BR>
happen if we close our system from the rest of the world. The only thing to<BR>
be gained from isolation (even mild-flavor) is a stagnating status-quo,<BR>
being now a closed system, it will wither in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.<BR>
That's cool, if that's what you want. Our policies will be set, after all,<BR>
on a combination of popular opinion and necessities. But think what will<BR>
happen to the U.S. stock market when a few hundred million Chinese are able<BR>
to increase their standard of living? Japan can't make *that* many microwave<BR>
ovens all by themselves, especially if and when U.S. companies begin<BR>
marketing in earnest to China, as they will most likely adopt a low-margin,<BR>
very-high-volume approach to transferring $billions from China to the U.S.<BR>
It is a trade between money and utility. There is no reason there must be a<BR>
loser in such a transaction. 'Trade deficits' be damned.<BR>
 <BR>
> Our shipbuilding capability is considerably lesser than it was even twenty<BR>
> years ago.  At the rate urban sprawl is accelerating, combined with<BR>
> prolonged drought conditions in the South, several experts predict that<BR>
> the US will be a net *importer* of food in less than thirty years.<BR>
<BR>
A dubious and irrelevant statistic that assumes a great many caveats before<BR>
the horses are even out of the gate. Like: the current rate of urban growth<BR>
will continue or increase every year for the next 30 years. It also assumes<BR>
that the rest of the world stays the same as they are now, and, in general,<BR>
people behave politically and economically as they do now. The raw data<BR>
behind such stats can be looked at from many different perspectives, and<BR>
yields easily to various interpretations. This is the case with all or most<BR>
stats that are bandied about under a partisan flag (of any stripe). They<BR>
cannot be proven, and are not available for even the simplest apprehension<BR>
of scientific testing ('non falsifiable'), there is no 'controlled<BR>
environment' in which the raw data interpreted in such sweeping statistics<BR>
can be observed. Speculation, opinion, rhetoric, but certainly nothing<BR>
substantive.<BR>
<BR>
> We already import our semiconductors from Taiwan and Malaysia, the gun<BR>
> barrels for the M1 from Germany, and our oil from Saudi Arabia.  We are<BR>
> increasingly dependent on imports from China, South Africa, and Russia for<BR>
> strategically vital elements such as Cr, Mo, V, La, and Nb.<BR>
<BR>
And they are dependant on the U.S., most likely a lot more than we are of<BR>
them. If the entire German economy was made into a stock index, it would add<BR>
only 22% to the weight of the NYSE/NASDQ/AMEX. What we can (and do) give to<BR>
South Africa for the bits of rare materials that we want, is *considerable*.<BR>
Not only dollars, that's for sure. The influence of the U.S. is not merely<BR>
monetary or military. It changes the policies of the nations we do business<BR>
with (and often their cultures). They change to better orient themselves to<BR>
the necessities of the free market, and in so doing, become less a strategic<BR>
threat and more an ally, if not asset. The fact that nations who want to<BR>
effectively compete in the global market must have a large educated/skilled<BR>
population (and popular education most often leads to all manner of civil<BR>
liberties, including democracy), therefore becoming political allies as well<BR>
as economic markets. Currency for utility. *And* security.<BR>
<BR>
The only place I can agree with you here is in the case of oil. It is true<BR>
that a significant proportion of our economy is dependant on the cheap<BR>
availability of petroleum products. This is, you are correct, a perfect<BR>
example of economic policy that basically amounts to a National Security<BR>
threat -- as has already been adequately demonstrated, in case no one could<BR>
see it before, in the Persian Gulf War. It isn't just the fact that the<BR>
vehicles and machines that we are dependant on to keep this economy going<BR>
require such a large aggregate volume of cheap, refined oil -- a finite<BR>
resource, no less -- but that much of America's economy is based on people<BR>
buying new vehicles and machines that use this resource. There is really<BR>
nothing to defend it, except the status quo (as if that were ever a<BR>
defence.) Apathy? I don't know. You can say "the greed of a few," but this<BR>
goes way beyond that -- General Motors is not just a private company, it's<BR>
practically an institution (as are a few other stalwarts such as GE, IBM,<BR>
3M, DuPont, Merck, UTX, SBC, and most of the other Dow 30). We are<BR>
short-sightedly hanging too much of our future GDP on these obsolete and<BR>
environment-deadly machines, with a built-in disposability, (even if it were<BR>
built to last 100 years) as the fuel they use is of finite supply and causes<BR>
a cumulative negative effect on our atmosphere. Ergo, this is a fatally<BR>
flawed business strategy. These 'mega' corps should be trying to make their<BR>
money on the next alternative fuel model, but the giant players are<BR>
individually afraid that they will lose market share, in the short term, to<BR>
other giants who will stay with the cheapest, dirtiest factory model to<BR>
undercut prices. The small car companies have an infeasibly high barrier to<BR>
the larger market. The U.S. oil companies have too tight a hold on the<BR>
collective cojones of Congress to let them even try to regulate a phase-in<BR>
of an alternative fuel-based vehicle type -- probably up until everyone in<BR>
L.A. is wearing gas-masks.(A breathing filter fitted for a small child would<BR>
be a politically unpopular image.) No, today, most people do not even think<BR>
of pressuring their government for change in this area, because most people<BR>
don't think about it at all.<BR>
 <BR>
> Also, our population has shrank considerably _vis a vis_ China and India,<BR>
> two of our more likely opponents in a major conflict.<BR>
<BR>
Both China and India will become less a threat to our security the more they<BR>
choose to move toward a democratic, free market model. A natural step in any<BR>
nation's efforts to be a player on the global market, trading what they have<BR>
in excess (labor, mainly) for what they lack. Military solutions at getting<BR>
what they want are not nearly as appealing in the nuclear age, compared to<BR>
joining the world's trading partners. Not only do they bring in a useful GDP<BR>
then -- slowly 'hardening' their currency -- they would also have access to<BR>
much that they would never have, and that largely comes from the U.S.,<BR>
namely the hi-tech sector/R&D, pharmaceuticals and modern medical care,<BR>
modern communications infrastructure, financial services, information<BR>
services, popular entertainment (which really can be a powerful medium for<BR>
*internal* alternative political pressure, as history has shown us),<BR>
state-of-the-art agricultural techniques/tools, etc. If we close our gates<BR>
to them, then a military solution only looks better from their point of view<BR>
(however unlikely).<BR>
 <BR>
> IT is cute, but not very useful from a military point of view.  What the<BR>
> hell are we going to do, throw AOL CDs at enemy infantry?<BR>
<BR>
Are you seriously suggesting that China or India could effectively mount a<BR>
ground war in the U.S.? I know their numbers look scary, but the *vast*<BR>
majority are neither trained nor armed -- those countries simply do not have<BR>
the ability to make the necessary expenditures. Even if they wanted to. One<BR>
of the reasons for the collapse of the U.S.S.R was that they just could not<BR>
keep up with the 'arms race' enough not to devote an unhealthy portion of<BR>
their GDP into that very expensive endevor. (One of the strategies the U.S.<BR>
adopted during the Cold War that actually worked toward bringing it down.)<BR>
As for a nuclear exchange -- unthinkable. China's entire nuclear strategy is<BR>
based on deterrent (that's why they have less than 25 nuclear ICBMs) -- they<BR>
fundamentaly believe that a nuclear exchange of any size would be so<BR>
devastating that it would be a guaranteed no-win situation. (The wisdom of<BR>
Confucius has, in many ways, escaped the flames of Mao's Cultural<BR>
Revolution). India's program is still in relative infancy, and they are<BR>
estimated to have enough "refined uranium" (U235) for, maybe, three<BR>
50-kiloton warheads (and they are not rich enough to buy it in any quantity<BR>
from others). The U.S. has thousands of warheads, and many hundreds are over<BR>
350 megaton yeild. Russia (including their silos in the Ukraine and<BR>
Kazakhstan) has hundreds of warheads. It's stupid, I know -- it doesn't take<BR>
that much to reduce the surface of the planet to uninhabitability, so as a<BR>
realistic attack strategy, it really, really sucks.<BR>
<BR>
> ObTrav:  I feel that it's very difficult to draw parallels between the 3I<BR>
> in 1100 and modern-day America, since the 3I is so sharply divided by<BR>
> travel and communication time between astrographic regions.  In the US,<BR>
> class and economic distinctions are much more distinct than regional<BR>
> differences.<BR>
<BR>
I agree that speed-of-light communications render a comparison to the 3I<BR>
problematic. But it goes to support the concept of globalism (in a similar<BR>
way that the many of the worlds in the OT are described). What sovereign<BR>
country owns the atmosphere? Because the air troublesomely refuses to stay<BR>
within political borders, and everybody needs to breathe it, what to do when<BR>
countries reject the repeated warnings of the world's scientific community<BR>
to cease or curtail doing whatever they are doing that is adversely<BR>
effecting the entire biosphere? Will the world sit and do nothing while the<BR>
government of Brazil allows ranchers and contractors to wipe out the largest<BR>
forest on earth? Do they care what that would do to the oxygen level in the<BR>
air they breathe? The long-term climate effects? (To say nothing of the<BR>
other incredible losses that are daily incurred from the razing of the<BR>
rainforest.) Who really "owns" something that the whole world's population<BR>
needs? What's the point? It's the same existential dilemma inherent in a<BR>
"doomsday device." There are plenty of resources for everyone -- there is<BR>
actually more than enough food to feed the planet. Starvation is a<BR>
logistical issue more than anything else. (Therefore, ultimately,<BR>
political.) There is a known world-wide statistical correlation between a<BR>
population's education level and their birth rate. The birth rates of<BR>
populations in the 'industrialized nations" is lower than in the<BR>
"third-world." The level of education was inversely proportional to the<BR>
number of children they we likely to have. In the very poorest nations (per<BR>
capita) in Africa, in Latin America, in Asia and the Caribbean, Melanesia,<BR>
Micronesia, the birth rate is over 40 per thousand, while North America,<BR>
Europe, Japan, Australia/New Zealand average about 12.4 per thousand. It<BR>
helps the lives of everyone to educate as many as possible, to increase the<BR>
standard of living and per capita income.<BR>
<BR>
It's really very simple. Currency for utility. It would open up massive new<BR>
markets for our companies and working population, allow the proliferation<BR>
and expansion of civil rights and democracy, and make the whole place more<BR>
secure. If it is in everyone's best interest to cooperate, then war becomes<BR>
less and less a viable choice. It is a non zero sum game.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:01:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
Judging by my T4, the conversion must be based on earlier editions of<BR>
Traveller because T4 seems a bit different. Maybe not. Most Imperial stuff<BR>
is B/C and major corporations would probably manage D with the megas at E<BR>
and the government at F. The D to F capable people would only have their<BR>
cutting edge research at this level, most stuff being B or C.<BR>
<BR>
> It is easier to just give a conversion:<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller    GURPS    T4<BR>
> 0                1-3            1<BR>
> 1                4                2-3<BR>
> 2                5                4<BR>
> 3                5                4<BR>
> 4                5                4<BR>
> 5                6                5<BR>
> 6                6                6<BR>
> 7                7                7-8<BR>
> 8                8                9<BR>
> 9                9                A<BR>
> 10              9                A<BR>
> 11              9                B<BR>
> 12              10              C<BR>
> 13              10              D<BR>
> 14              11              E<BR>
> 15              12              F<BR>
> 16              13              G<BR>
><BR>
> I hope this helps. All the best,<BR>
><BR>
> Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
> www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:05:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (not long anymore)<BR>
<BR>
> Via electronic medium on 7/18/00 3:52 PM, nco@its.caltech.edu issued forth:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>> Since this was written the US economy has been unusally  healthy.<BR>
> >>> However, an analysis by the Economist magazine suggests this  was<BR>
> >>> due in large part by external factors,  and  that  these  factors<BR>
> >>> will end by the end of 2000.<BR>
> <BR>
> Please, stop with trowing out numbers with nothing to back it up with. How<BR>
> convenient that our economy is "due" to take a nosedive 'by the year 2000.'<BR>
<BR>
Actually, I did not write this at all.  I have taken this discussion to<BR>
private e-mail as I feel its relevance to Traveller has been completely<BR>
obliterated.<BR>
<BR>
> > The vast majority of our manufacturing capacity was<BR>
> > exported to Mexico, China, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc., etc. and the<BR>
> > US retains very little in the way of heavy industry.<BR>
<BR>
I did write this and would be happy to discuss it by personal e-mail.<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:19:16 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
There are large chunks missing from your post. Either your editor or<BR>
your mailer is broken. :-(<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
(not sure if the first line below is truncated or not.)<BR>
<BR>
> The US did, in fact, pull back from Kuwait, whe<BR>
> could have run over Saddam.  We also have generally pulled back<BR>
> from confrontation with Russia (we have cut our troops in<BR>
> general, our commitment to NATO is less, we haven't agreessively<BR>
> tried to move bases up into new territories, we have even given<BR>
> up a big base in the Philipines, we not tried to carve up Russia<BR>
> more (we even oppose Chenyan (sp?) suceession), etc. etc.), now<BR>
> some have tried to find other reasons for each of these, but that<BR>
> is just spin.  The US didn't even go into Somalia, Haiti, or<BR>
> Kosovo for any nationalitic gain (in fact it was the lack of<BR>
> self interest that caused many to oppose the acts>.)<BR>
><BR>
> The fact is, the US defense budget is significantly lower, in<BR>
> real terms, than it has been in a long time.  That is the most<BR>
> fundamental expression that the US is indeed pulling back.  OTOH,<BR>
> I see no<BR>
<BR>
The line above *is* truncated.<BR>
<BR>
>>Also, our population has shrank considerably _vis a vis_ China and India,<BR>
>>two of our more likely opponents in a major conflict.<BR>
><BR>
> India is more likely to fight China than us.  Neither are going<BR>
> to be<BR>
<BR>
Another truncation...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2784<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2785<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
RE: The New Era<BR>
Re: Tech development curve<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Dangerous Ground (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
The Lowberth Massacre Revisited (was Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO))<BR>
Re: The Llellewyloly<BR>
Re : Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
Moving a rock...<BR>
RE: Declining societies (not so long, OT)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:29:17 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>>Base 5 on 26. -1 for End 6-, +1 for Medic 2+ at revival. That means;<BR>
>>1 in 6 (base civilian) good health, unattended death rate<BR>
>>1 in 3.6! poor health, unattended death rate<BR>
>>1 in 6 ill health attended death rate<BR>
>>1 in 3 (base military) good health, attended death rate<BR>
>><BR>
>>Unless I am missing some errata or edition retcon of course.<BR>
>><BR>
>>>What is the current casualty rate for airborne operations?  I suggest that<BR>
>>this casualty rate would be acceptable for LB troop transport.<<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that low passages are "borrowed" from the Dumarest series<BR>
and were rather explicitly intended as an absolute last resort method<BR>
of travel!<BR>
<BR>
A quote from the Traveller book may be instructive. Under "The Low<BR>
Lottery" on page 50, we find the following sentence:<BR>
<BR>
"Since low passengers are typically without funds (who would travel low<BR>
if there were any other choice?), the low lottery provides some chance<BR>
for the individual to funds upon arrival at the destination."<BR>
<BR>
Note the parenthetical comment. :-)<BR>
<BR>
A low passage is intended to be about on par with getting smuggled into<BR>
the US in a cargo container...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:37:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On 07/17/00 at 06:56 PM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) said:<BR>
><BR>
>>Older references have the *losers* being sacrificed. But finally, the<BR>
>>evidence was just too strong and current references state that the<BR>
>>*winners* were the ones who were sacrificed.<BR>
><BR>
> Yes, but what I've always wondered was what happened to the losers?  Did <BR>
> they go on with their lives? Did they get another chance to compete? Or Were <BR>
> they just summarily executed instead of being feted for a year before being <BR>
> sacrificed? <BR>
<BR>
I don't know. I'd suspect that they went back and practiced hardr<BR>
hoping to win the *next* year. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Oh, a neat idea for a planetary government (swiped from a Christopher<BR>
Anvil short story).<BR>
<BR>
The PC(s) have arrived on a planet and hear that the current ruler of<BR>
the planet is retiring. The new ruler will be chosen at the stadium in<BR>
the city near the port. <BR>
<BR>
The ruler can have pretty much anything he wants, and offworlders are<BR>
eligible. If they go to stadium, they find that candidates will be<BR>
lined up on one side of the stadium, exhorted to carefully consider the<BR>
responsibilities of the position, and the first one to the other side<BR>
becomes ruler. <BR>
<BR>
All is as presented. There are just a few minor details. All citizens<BR>
are fitted with a small transmitter tied into their nervous system. The<BR>
various levels of local nobles are all fitted with *receivers* as well.<BR>
<BR>
The receivers and transmitters are tied together such that certain<BR>
sensations in the folks with the senders in a given geographic area<BR>
produce certain other sensations in specific portions of the bodies of<BR>
the folks with the receivers.<BR>
<BR>
For example, a hurricane hits the Xix penninsula. The Baron of Xix<BR>
wakes up feeling like he's been dipped in boiling oil due to the pain<BR>
and distress of his people. The King (ruler of the planet) wakes up<BR>
feeling similar sensations in (say) his big toe. Intermediate levels of<BR>
noble will have intermediate amounts of sensation...<BR>
<BR>
Oh yeah, thinking about having the network of neurostimulators removed<BR>
triggers them in a rather unpleasant way. So does going offworld. And<BR>
there may have been other "limits". But once you have a replacement<BR>
lined up, it's ok to get them taken out. <BR>
<BR>
So the luxuries etc, are "paid for" by being *forced* to care very much<BR>
about the good of the people under you, because *you* feel stuff that<BR>
hurts them. Minor dissatisfaction might only be an itch. Mass hunger or<BR>
sicknes? You don't want to go there.<BR>
<BR>
The pain (if it escalates to that level) isn't disabling. But you might<BR>
*wish* it was...<BR>
<BR>
Obviously, this requires some moderately advanced medical tech, as<BR>
well as needing to have all the "loopholes" plugged. But assume that it<BR>
is, and you get an interseting place to visit, as well as a lovely trap<BR>
for any PC who think he's "smmart" and is prone to try to scam<BR>
"suckers". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:58:24 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Slide Rule Off Topic Slightly, Napier's Bones<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Does anyone have any suggestions about gaining some insight into the history<BR>
> of the slide rule's antecedent, Napier's Bones?  The best I have been able<BR>
> to find regards Napier's Bones is in the orginal three volume edition of the<BR>
> Encyclopedia Britannica.  Any earlier historical references would be<BR>
> appreciated, especially if show that Napier's Bones predate1600.<BR>
<BR>
The slide rule can't pre-date logarithms, which can't pre-date<BR>
Charles(?) Napier. And I'm pretty sure he was *post* 1600. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:22:17 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
<BR>
In my T4 book, augmented battle dress has rigid Armour 8. Regular battle<BR>
dress is rigid 8. Flex is 5, and other armour less. The weapons do damage<BR>
1-7 with most guns 4 or 5. Only a laser or hand grenade will get through<BR>
flex armour and nothing in the game will penetrate battle dress. The game<BR>
doesn't list the heavier weapons.<BR>
<BR>
In GT I had a problem of the tremendous protection of armour being a matter<BR>
of heroes being invulnerable or liquefied when I read the books. In play I<BR>
tried to restrict access to military hardware. But I still wish it were a<BR>
bit smoother with more middle.<BR>
<BR>
The conversions for armour seem to be GT 1/20 DR (round down) = Armour in<BR>
T4. The weapons in T4 seem to have a Damage equal to roughly 2/3 of the<BR>
GURPS dice in damage.<BR>
<BR>
It is important because I need to import the heavier weapons from GT if I<BR>
switch rulesets. I love the GURPS supplements and GT is well done but when I<BR>
play the mechanics make me cringe. It is mostly the character generation and<BR>
skills are a big part of that complaint.<BR>
<BR>
I hope this is of help to others and that people who have been down this<BR>
road can correct me where I am off. All the best,<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:01:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
<BR>
"John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > The notion <BR>
> > of a thousand Darrian worlds by - 500 or so does not seem implausible <BR>
> > to me. <BR>
> > If you have ten or fifteen tech levels on someone all the<BR>
> > good intentions in the world may not stop you from wrecking <BR>
> > their society. <BR>
<BR>
> Although I tend to agree that Maghiz-free Darrians *could* have crept up<BR>
> into the Ancients' technological territory, a universe infested by them<BR>
> probably wouldn't be a very interesting place for *gaming* (for much the<BR>
> same reasons that campaigns set in the "Star Trek" universe are usually<BR>
> either painfully dull, or don't "feel" very much like "Star Trek").  I'd<BR>
> say that technology starts getting "incomprehensibly magical" at, say,<BR>
> Tech Level 18, or perhaps 19.  <BR>
<BR>
Tech Level 18-19 features disintegrators [phasers set on kill],<BR>
Antimatter missiles (only Tl 17) [photon torpedoes], long range <BR>
tractors [tractor beams], self aware computers [federation<BR>
computers], pseudo reality is commonplace [holodecks], worlds<BR>
of any size can be terraformed [the Genesis Effect], Advanced<BR>
bioengineering [The Borg] (although pseudobiological prosthesis's<BR>
are only Tl 15], matter transport [transporters], and antimatter<BR>
power plants [like the Enterprise]. ST:TOS is about TL 18-19,<BR>
and ST:NG is a Tl or two higher.<BR>
<BR>
Granted that ST is completely full of inconsistent and implausible<BR>
pseudoscientific techno-babble the basic notion of a society at<BR>
these Tl's does not cause any problems for me. Obviously your<BR>
mileage varies.<BR>
<BR>
> Now, here's the challenge: coming up with a<BR>
> good reason for Maghiz-free Darrians whose technological "cutting edge" is<BR>
> "only" at Tech Level 18 (in the same sense that the canonical Third<BR>
> Imperium had a handful of Tech Level 16 worlds during the "Classic Era",<BR>
> but was "really" only Tech Level 15).<BR>
<BR>
The easiest answer would be another disaster instead. Perhaps<BR>
relocating the center of the Maghiz from Darrian itself to<BR>
one of the Darrian colonies would be suffiecient.<BR>
<BR>
If we center the Maghiz elsewhere people on Darrian live and<BR>
suffer economic losses when the wavefornt reaches Darrian<BR>
but the culture is not destroyed. instead the Maghiz dammages<BR>
the economy and changes the culture. After the Darrians<BR>
see first hand just what playing with science can cause they<BR>
limit (or even ban) scientific research on items about TL 15 <BR>
or so. Because of this social change their rate of scientific <BR>
progress slows to a crawl. By 500 Imperial all of Darrian<BR>
space is at a solid TL 17 and Darrians are almost as technioally<BR>
conservative as the Vilani are. As the Darrians begin to perceive<BR>
the threat of the Imperials and the Zhodani they begin to increase<BR>
tehir technology and by Milieu 1100 they are at a solid TL 18,<BR>
sell TL 17 stuff for export, and have research stations with<BR>
experimental TL 19 items.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:04:30 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> It is easier to just give a conversion:<BR>
> <BR>
> Traveller    GURPS<BR>
> 0                1-3<BR>
> 1                4<BR>
> 2                5<BR>
> 3                5<BR>
> 4                5<BR>
> 5                6<BR>
> 6                6<BR>
> 7                7<BR>
> 8                8<BR>
> 9                9<BR>
> 10              9<BR>
> 11              9<BR>
> 12              10<BR>
> 13              10<BR>
> 14              11<BR>
> 15              12<BR>
> 16              13<BR>
> <BR>
> I hope this helps. All the best,<BR>
<BR>
This is exactly what I was hoping for.  Thanks!<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:09:31 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mike Demetro<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, 19 July 2000 1:56 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: The New Era<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
> style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
> the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
><BR>
> Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
> www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
><BR>
Actually I moved to TNE becuase it was compatible with Twilight 2000 and<BR>
Dark Conspiracy. The release of T4 here virtually killed Traveller. The only<BR>
game going that I know of is one using TNE rules that I run.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:19:06 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Tech development curve<BR>
<BR>
Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:<BR>
> > All those Imperial Research Stations presumably have a purpose<BR>
> > other than dungeon crawls for larcenous PC's, as such they<BR>
> > may actually produce useful data from time to time. :)<BR>
<BR>
> I dunno Peter - I don't think canon supports this argument. <BR>
> Though my references are at home, I can't remember a single<BR>
> research station presented as anything but a dungeon crawl.<BR>
> I mean, it's canon.<BR>
<BR>
Only in the Spinward marches are Imperial Research stations<BR>
portrayed as dungeon crawls. None of the research stations<BR>
in the Solomani Rim are portrayed as such, nor are those in<BR>
Diaspora [MT Astrogators GT Diaspora] or Masillia [MT Knightfall].<BR>
DGP did portray one of the research stations in Corridor as<BR>
being the Imperial version of the Warehouse 23'ish place the <BR>
Ark of the Covenant was stored in at the end of Indiana Jones<BR>
in a bit of library data, but (IIRC) none of the other Imperial <BR>
Research stations were portrayed as dungeon crawls.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps the common Imperial core perception of the Marches as <BR>
a barbaric area is rooted in fact as only in the Marches are <BR>
Imperial Research stations portrayed as dungeons. Similarly<BR>
Ancient sites in or near the Marches are portrayed as dungeons<BR>
while those in the core are not (the Primordial site in Knightfall<BR>
is not, strictly speaking, an Ancient site although it is certainly<BR>
an ancient site).<BR>
<BR>
I think you are reading too much into Research Station Gamma :)<BR>
<BR>
Alternative Templar Influenced reading: Humans in the Marches<BR>
have been genetically programmed by Yaskodray to be more responsive<BR>
to requests from Droyne (and Chirpers). Thus when the Chirper<BR>
in Adv. 2 asked the players for help they felt compelled to help<BR>
it, where Imperials from elsewhere would not have. Thus the<BR>
party was non compis mentis when they criminally looted Research<BR>
Station Gamma. In GURPS terms this would be Week Will (only versus<BR>
Droyne, Chirpers & Ancients) and Delusion (Droyne and Chirpers<BR>
are Pitiable).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:36:35 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote<BR>
> Subject: Re:<BR>
> <BR>
> > than 52 parsecs or so. This however does not fit with BG's<BR>
> > references to traveling between galaxies (A notion that I find to<BR>
> > be utter felgercarb but that's another issue entirely).<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, yes...  That fun little bit...<BR>
<BR>
I would suggest explaining it away by stating that, according<BR>
to Colonial astronomers, galactic clusters are separate galaxies<BR>
since they have a common center of rotation. Whenever you hear <BR>
'galaxy' replace it with 'galactic cluster'.<BR>
<BR>
> > The Colonists home star system had _12_ inhabitable human colonies<BR>
> > (and possibly more than just 12 if the Borellian Nomen (sp?)<BR>
> > came from a different colony than the other colonials). Solar <BR>
> <BR>
> Didn't they come from one of the more uninhabitable locations of one of the<BR>
> Colonial planets?<BR>
<BR>
I don't think so, IIRC one of the Nomen says something like<BR>
"Only we are strong enough to withstand the burning double<BR>
sun" thus establishing that Borellia is a separate planet<BR>
and possibly a separate solar system.<BR>
<BR>
> > systems do not have life zones big enough for 12 habitable planets.<BR>
> > This _strongly_ suggests that the Colonists home system was<BR>
> > extensively terraformed. The logical candidate in the TU. for this<BR>
> > sort of terraforming would be the Ancients. The Ancients may have<BR>
> > put 4 to 6 planets each in 2 or 3 rosettes around the Colonists<BR>
> > sun within the life zone. <BR>
> <BR>
> I was never to sure if they were in the same Solar system or not....  It's<BR>
> almost as if the Galactica was near the Core, and in a very complex mess of<BR>
> Suns orbiting Suns, with planets orbiting planets.  I wouldn't even want to<BR>
> think about what a mess that would create...<BR>
<BR>
No. BSG canon establishes that the colonies are in one system.<BR>
The voice over from the premiere two parter states that after<BR>
the Cylons destroyed the Colonies "And The Word Went Forth To<BR>
Every Outpost Of Human Existence. [1] And They Came. The Aeries,<BR>
The Gemens, The Virgos, The Scorpios... The Picons And The<BR>
Sagitarians. In All Two Hundred And Twenty Ships Representing<BR>
Every Colony, Color And Creed In _The_ Star System." [BSG The<BR>
Photostory p 54]. _The is singular hence the colonies are in<BR>
one star system. This conclusion is also supported by the fact<BR>
that the Galactica returned to "the colonies" not to "a Colony"<BR>
hence the Colonies must be close together.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:32:44 -0500<BR>
From: "Shadowcat" <meow@advancenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Dangerous Ground (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
<BR>
Aw... we could at least point folks to a source for the lyrics to that <BR>
bawdy classic... let the reader beware/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:43:52 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > I'm planning to start a Traveller variant campaign using Battlestar <BR>
> > Galactica as the theme. Hopefully, someone can point me in the right <BR>
> > direction to find the following:<BR>
> > Size specs for the Galactica and other craft used<BR>
> > Performance specs for the above items<BR>
> <BR>
> Those will be *completely* out in left field.<BR>
> Vipers are flat out *impossible* under normal Traveller tech levels.<BR>
> Interstellar range craft *that* small? No way.<BR>
<BR>
Are Vipers doable with a version of 2300's Stutter warp drive<BR>
perhaps?<BR>
<BR>
> Then you get to the Galactica versus the "ragtag fleet". Supposedly,<BR>
> the fleet has no FTL capability, the Galactica does. I leave it to your<BR>
> imagination to figure out the problems that causes.<BR>
<BR>
Some, but not much, of the fleet has FTL capability:<BR>
<BR>
"Apollo stood and spoke. [to Adama]<BR>
"Sir less than a third of these ships can make light-speed."<BR>
[BSG Novelization p 84]<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:38:23 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: The Lowberth Massacre Revisited (was Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO))<BR>
<BR>
>At 06:05 PM 7/18/00, you wrote:<BR>
>So, time for a revision?<BR>
><BR>
>Sam<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here is how I do it for TNEC:<BR>
<BR>
Lowberth Survival<BR>
===============<BR>
Cold sleep is basically brand new tech in TNEC.  I believe that in High <BR>
Guard it mentions that the tech was originally developed as a method of <BR>
transporting herd animals for colonies.  So, tell me that loosing 8 - 20% <BR>
of your investment is acceptable.<BR>
<BR>
I throw 4D.  DM's are (Vessel TL - 15), (Attending Medical skill /2), -1 x <BR>
(Number Months Ship Past Annual Maint).<BR>
<BR>
Death results on 4-.  2d injuries and "Cold Sleep Sickness" result on a 5, <BR>
and 1d injuries result on a 6.<BR>
<BR>
Bell curve for bottom bit of 4D looks like:<BR>
Roll            %<BR>
4            .13        }<BR>
5            .29        }   Total Injuries less than 1.3%, total fatalities <BR>
less than 0.15%<BR>
6            .79        }<BR>
- ----------------------<BR>
7            1.42<BR>
8            2.96<BR>
9            4.47<BR>
<BR>
So, median roll is 14.  Given a medic 1, a properly maintained ship and <BR>
TNEC TL 9:<BR>
14 + ( 9 - 15 = -6) + (1/2 = 0.5 round 1) - 0 = 9<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca<BR>
				ICQ # 31172292<BR>
	"Reality Error in Progress....<BR>
			       ....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	Cyberpunk:  	http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020<BR>
	Traveller:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
	AD&D:		http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/adnd_eurania<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
	    ***REMEMBER - Always virus-check your emails ***<BR>
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:55:46 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: The Llellewyloly<BR>
<BR>
Jim Kundert wrote :-<BR>
> Someone else came zipping through the list some six months ago suggesting <BR>
> they were writing a version for GURPS, but I have no idea if anything came of <BR>
> it.<BR>
<BR>
That was me. The contract for G:T AR4 has been farmed out to a number of<BR>
authors. Unfortunately I was not one of them. The playtest list should<BR>
start sometime in the next two weeks if Loren's original deadline still<BR>
holds.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:55:56 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
David Summers wrote :-<BR>
> >I tend to use :-<BR>
> >Reanimation is a Formidable Medical, Edu task (co-operative OK).<BR>
> >+1 difficulty level if fast drug used instead of low berthing.<BR>
> <BR>
> How does the fast drug take effect if the person is dead?<BR>
> <BR>
(and Thomas Jones-Low) :-<BR>
> So how does a drug get distributed throughout the nervous system (or<BR>
> any other part of the body) when the recipient is dead?<BR>
<BR>
It's given as part of 'last-ditch' resuscitative efforts. CPR is<BR>
maintained for a minute or so after the administration of fast drug,<BR>
then into the 'crisper bin' you go.<BR>
<BR>
The other option is to put someone on cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB) and<BR>
infuse the stuff in, though CPB is difficult enough to set up in an<BR>
operating theatre, let alone on a battlefield...<BR>
<BR>
> How long after the heart stops does it take for significant<BR>
> degredation of tissues in general and the brain in particular?<BR>
'Irreversible' brain and cardiac damage after five minutes.<BR>
Muscle and viscera are irreversibly damaged after ten minutes or so.<BR>
<BR>
Hypothermia slows metabolic rate and is a significant protective factor.<BR>
At a core temperature of 20 C, brain protection is possible for about<BR>
three hours - with CPB.<BR>
<BR>
Case reports of immersion survivors represent the limits of organ<BR>
protection. Limb (digit) loss is common.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:59 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC In MT it was cannon that a _dead_ person could be revived at a TL16<BR>
> hospital... At one time we had 3 charactors from one player in the low<BR>
> berths... he never learned ;)<BR>
<BR>
It only takes TL 13.<BR>
<BR>
"Death of a character is not instantaneous. Diagnosis within<BR>
1d6 minutes may be used to keep a character barely alive - enough<BR>
alive, at least, to receive later treatment in TL 9+ hospital <BR>
facilities or transport in low birth. <BR>
To recover the charecter must be rediagnosed and receive<BR>
treatment in hospital facilities of tech level 13 or more.<BR>
If successful treatment is not received in the 2d6 months<BR>
indicated above, the charecter dies."<BR>
<BR>
[MT Players Manual p82]<BR>
<BR>
This task is Formidable Medical [and?] fateful with a special +1<BR>
DM for each TL over 13 and costs Cr 250,000 + Cr 150,000/month<BR>
during recovery. The recovery rate is 1 point to 1 stat per<BR>
month on a 9+ (+1 per TL over 12). When two stats reach their <BR>
original level no more healing occurs (in other words it causes<BR>
at least a permanent -1 to one physical characteristic).<BR>
 <BR>
> In GT I would have no problem at all with this - at GTL 12 for an alive but<BR>
> mortally wounded fellow or GTL13 for a not long dead fellow.<BR>
<BR>
I would make it GTL 9 for mortally wounded and GTL 10 or 11 for<BR>
not long dead as this matches the MT rules.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:58:30 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
> The release of T4 here virtually killed Traveller. <BR>
<BR>
How on Earth did that come about?<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:28:48 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
Tod noted:<BR>
> <BR>
> A completely dead character is dead<BR>
<BR>
But mostly dead gets you a crack at a miracle...<BR>
<BR>
yours,<BR>
Michael<BR>
- -- <BR>
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly<BR>
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix<BR>
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff<BR>
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:03:48 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Mike Demetro wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
> style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
> the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
<BR>
TNE was my first exposure to Traveller (yes, I'm a young one), and I'm<BR>
still trying to figure out why so many people hate it.  Hopefully, this<BR>
thread will be enlightening.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:11:13 -0700<BR>
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>Greeting Gentlepersons<BR>
>(that should be sufficently correct to avoid<BR>
>any fiery response)<BR>
><BR>
>Our gaming group met last saturday and<BR>
>after some gaming, the obligatory pizza, and<BR>
>then sampling of some very nice single malt scotch,<BR>
>we proceeded to the, perhaps more fancifull, portion<BR>
>of the evening...... musing (err, well there are other<BR>
>terms that might well apply).<BR>
><BR>
>One of our brethren had recently seen the new movie:<BR>
>"X-Men" and his opinion was "not a bad movie. Needs<BR>
>work:". However, his comments in re: traveller brought<BR>
>up the following question: Has anyone created or used<BR>
>superheroe types as foils or NPC's in their campaigns?<BR>
><BR>
>I know that there is said to be a version of Traveller called<BR>
>"GT" and that the Gurps game system has more variants<BR>
>and supplements than, well almost anything that you'd care<BR>
>to mention. (no offense intended to a very successfull game<BR>
>system. But it's not what we play, which is an admixture of<BR>
>CT & MT)<BR>
><BR>
>I'm hoping that there may be someone who's explored this<BR>
>concept already and save me from my group. Their<BR>
>already plotting in this vein.<BR>
><BR>
>Sorry prolixity. My keyboard just won't stop<BR>
><BR>
>BTW, anyone caring to discuss single malt scotch, please<BR>
>contact me at your pleasure.<BR>
><BR>
>Thanks<BR>
>Pat Connaughton<BR>
>ICQ # 2535086<BR>
>pconn@i1.net<BR>
>"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
>how to reign"<BR>
>Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
Ask the Evil GM Tod (Tod Glenn) about SolSec agents we've encountered<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:26:36 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
Howdy!<BR>
<BR>
In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem that threatens <BR>
to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large asteroid is heading <BR>
towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
<BR>
The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months <BR>
or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What <BR>
level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the planet?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:02:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: RE: Declining societies (not so long, OT)<BR>
<BR>
Neal C. Oldham wrote:<BR>
> In the US, class and economic distinctions are much more distinct <BR>
> than  regional differences. <BR>
<BR>
I'm sorry, this is not true.  <BR>
<BR>
One of the most distinctive features of the US is class (and<BR>
economic) mobility.  Even with American propensity to pull up<BR>
roots and move (average family moves at least once every<BR>
seven point something years), our regional characteristics are<BR>
still more constant (in general) than our economic ones.<BR>
<BR>
The majority of American millionaires didn't start out that way.<BR>
We are annually treated to news articles of millionaires who<BR>
didn't end up as millionaires either.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2785<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2786</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2786<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Modular Spacecraft Design Questions<BR>
RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes.<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2782<BR>
RE: Moving a rock...<BR>
Other way around?<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
K'kree battledress was Re: Better wounded than dead<BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
RE: The new ERA - Long<BR>
Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:10:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Modular Spacecraft Design Questions<BR>
<BR>
I'm trying to put together a freighter using the <BR>
"Book 5: High Guard" design rules.  The freighter<BR>
(whose configuration is 7, "Dispersed Structure")<BR>
carries its cargo externally, in several sealed<BR>
cargo modules.  To get these modules to and from<BR>
the surfaces of planets, the freighter carries a<BR>
shuttle, which is really little more than a conical<BR>
pressurized cockpit at one end, a long "spine" (with<BR>
clamps for a cargo module) and drive pod at the other<BR>
end.<BR>
<BR>
How do I design this system fairly, particularly <BR>
with respect to hull prices and bridge volumes?<BR>
<BR>
I envision treating the cargo modules as seperate<BR>
"hulls."  Since they are basically box-shaped (with<BR>
rounded corners and edges), I think it would be fair<BR>
to treat them having configuration 4 (Close Structure)<BR>
in isolation.<BR>
<BR>
The problem, however, is how to handle the hulls of <BR>
the freighter and its shuttle.  Suppose, for instance,<BR>
that the freighter alone has a volume of 300 dtons, <BR>
but that attaching a full load of cargo modules brings<BR>
its volume up to 1000 dtons.  How much should its hull<BR>
cost?  And much space should its bridge require?<BR>
Likewise, suppose a single cargo module has a volume<BR>
of 50 dtons, and that the minimal shuttle I described<BR>
above (without a module attached) has a volume of just<BR>
10 dtons.  How much should its hull cost?<BR>
<BR>
The only canonical "Classic Traveller" precedents I<BR>
can think of are battle rider/tender systems and modular<BR>
cutters.  How are these handled?<BR>
<BR>
                                          - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:17:01 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes.<BR>
<BR>
*sigh*<BR>
<BR>
It wasn't last year. No wonder I got my employer's security <BR>
lockout screen when I tried to access the site.<BR>
<BR>
Nothing like ruining a good site.<BR>
<BR>
My deepest apologies for posting a (unknown to me) porn<BR>
site reference to the TML.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:06:12 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: RE: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and<BR>
Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
<BR>
David Smart wrote:<BR>
> Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles ...<BR>
> <BR>
> There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
> being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
> heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
<BR>
www.bigguns.com seems to be a porn site. The girls look older than <BR>
15, and I think "one heck of a muzzle brake" has just entered my <BR>
vast and throbbing collection of euphemisms. Or perhaps that should <BR>
be "pair of muzzle brakes". <BR>
<BR>
- - -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:20:22 -0500<BR>
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2782<BR>
<BR>
Yep! That's it.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks, Bruce.<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:42:11 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. (was Races and<BR>
Recoil  Tolerance)<BR>
<BR>
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> David Smart wrote:<BR>
> > Tod Glenn posted:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles ...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com (?)<BR>
> > being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had one<BR>
> > heck of a muzzle brake.<BR>
<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif<BR>
<BR>
Might be the picture people are thinking about. However, the age of the<BR>
young woman firing the thing isn't clear.<BR>
<BR>
the main site is: <BR>
<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/big/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:25:42 +0100<BR>
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: RE: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: Kurt Feltenberger [mailto:kurt@blazenet.net]<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 3:27 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Moving a rock...<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> Howdy!<BR>
> <BR>
> In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem <BR>
> that threatens <BR>
> to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large <BR>
> asteroid is heading <BR>
> towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
> <BR>
> The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future <BR>
> (6-12 months <BR>
> or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km <BR>
> high.  What <BR>
> level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting <BR>
> on the planet?<BR>
> <BR>
> Thanks in advance!<BR>
> <BR>
> Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
Well, as you don't specify the density, I've gone with a very<BR>
pessimistic value of 10.<BR>
<BR>
At this density the rock weighs 11,700,000,000,000 tons.<BR>
<BR>
6 months (say 183 days) is 15811200 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
Lets say the planet has a diameter of 15000km. We need to shift the<BR>
asteroid by up to 1 radius, plus the atmosphere depth, plus a bit of a<BR>
safety margin. Lets go for a shift of 100,000km.<BR>
<BR>
Now F=ma, and a=2*shift/time^2.<BR>
<BR>
Plugging the figures in gives a constant force of 9,360,222.944 Newtons<BR>
for 6 months.<BR>
<BR>
Now assuming that starships mass about 15 times their displacement<BR>
tonnage, a manoeuvre drive that can shift a 10601.68 dton ship at 6g<BR>
will be producing 9,360,222.944 Newtons.<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
result.<BR>
<BR>
If they have a year then the acceleration required is quartered,<BR>
but must be applied for twice as long. 80 scout ship engines would now<BR>
suffice<BR>
<BR>
Have fun!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:30:39 -0400<BR>
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: Other way around?<BR>
<BR>
>Actually, you have tried to expand NATO into the Eastern Bloc and<BR>
>aggressively moved in with no calming period into a politically unstable<BR>
>area and risk alienating Russia.<BR>
<BR>
Didn't those former Eastern Block countries ask to be part of NATO, rather <BR>
than NATO asking them to join?<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
urbin@bigfoot.com - Opinions should be yours too!<BR>
It was blasphemous, it was sacrilegious, and it was a little bit too much fun.<BR>
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:46:12<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
At 01:56 AM 7/19/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
>When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
>style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
>the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
<BR>
Yikes.<BR>
<BR>
This is one of the Topics That Can Get Ugly on the TML.  The relase of TNE<BR>
caused such a rift that that the list was broken into two seperate lists<BR>
for a time.<BR>
<BR>
Without trying to start some flame wars, I can say that my problems were<BR>
both with the rules and with the setting.  Virus and Vampires sucked.<BR>
Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:13:29 -0400<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
Realize that the TL conversion chart on p. GT107 is seriously flawed,<BR>
especially at the lower TLs. Both GURPS and Traveller give historical<BR>
analogs for their tech levels by date, so there should be no problem<BR>
converting, but the chart doesn't reflect this. Here is my first-order<BR>
approximation (and the one I submitted as an erratum, long ago):<BR>
<BR>
Traveller		GURPS<BR>
0 (stone age)		0 (stone age)<BR>
1 (medieval age)	1 (bronze age)<BR>
1			2 (iron age)<BR>
1			3 (<1450)<BR>
2 (1600)		4 (1450-1700)<BR>
3 (1800)		5 (1701-1900)<BR>
4 (1900)		6 (1901-1950)<BR>
5 (1930)		6<BR>
6 (1950)		7 (1951-2000)<BR>
7 (1970)		7<BR>
8 (1990)		7<BR>
9 (2010)		8 (2001-2050?)<BR>
<BR>
There are still problems with this (steam engines are TTL4, for example),<BR>
but to do any better I'd have to compare specific technologies across the<BR>
board.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:17:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro writes:<BR>
> The conversions for armour seem to be GT 1/20 DR (round down) = Armour in<BR>
> T4. The weapons in T4 seem to have a Damage equal to roughly 2/3 of the<BR>
> GURPS dice in damage.<BR>
<BR>
IIRC 1 T4 armor point = 0.5 cm steel equivalent.<BR>
1" steel = DR 70.  1 cm steel = DR 28.  Thus, 1 armor factor=DR 14.<BR>
Note that GT 'TL 12 expensive metal' is .04 lb/sf*dr, which is 15x stronger (weight for weight) than steel, and about twice as strong (weight for weight) as bonded superdense.<BR>
<BR>
The ability to penetrate 1 T4 armor point should be equivalent to 4d of damage in GT.  I'm unfamiliar with how T4 damage works, however, but if 7d won't penetrate armor-8 I suspect its dice subtracted, in which case multiply GT damage by its armor divisor and divide by 4.  In this case an FGMP-15 will do 40d, making ABD rather irrelevant.  OTOH, a rifle with AP ammunition would only do around 3d, and pistols would be lucky to do 1d.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:22:54 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: K'kree battledress was Re: Better wounded than dead<BR>
<BR>
>> Picture a K'kree with a front mounted mini-gun. And then think about<BR>
>> just how much ammo he could carry in panniers slung across his body.<BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
>Then remember that K'kree *never* do anything on their own....btw...how do<BR>
they<BR>
>cope with weaing Battle Dress? does it count as a vehicle? or clothing?<BR>
><BR>
>Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
I would say that K'kree don't do battledress or vac suits for that matter.<BR>
The smallest possible K'kree combat vehicle would probably a kind of light<BR>
battle vehicle with three or so crew members. That isn't a problem for them,<BR>
as I see it, because they don't use common infantry tactics. Orbital<BR>
bombardment with neutron bombs or bio weapons is more their speed. Or just<BR>
drop rocks on the defenders from space until they're all dead. Come back in<BR>
a few generations when the world is habitable again.<BR>
<BR>
In situations where armor is advisable I would expect a kind of non-sealed<BR>
armor with a shield. It's the closed facepiece that would be the problem (at<BR>
least that's what bothers most claustrophobic humans). Perhaps a vac suit<BR>
with a bubble-type helmet would be bearable (one-way in visible light only)<BR>
to them, but I doubt it. I expect that robots would be used for most work<BR>
that is done by zero-g crews in vac suits or workpods.<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:25:31 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
Christopher Thrash writes:<BR>
> Realize that the TL conversion chart on p. GT107 is seriously flawed,<BR>
> especially at the lower TLs. Both GURPS and Traveller give historical<BR>
> analogs for their tech levels by date, so there should be no problem<BR>
> converting, but the chart doesn't reflect this. Here is my first-order<BR>
> approximation (and the one I submitted as an erratum, long ago):<BR>
*snip*<BR>
It's pretty flawed at the high end as well.  There are a lot of devices at GTL 10+ which are TL 16-18 in Traveller.  As a rule of thumb I'd make TL 12-14 equal to GTL-10, TL 15-17 equal to GTL-11.  Beyond that the TL curve in CT isn't terribly well defined, but should probably be fairly fast.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:47:52 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy <BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> Tech Level 18-19 features disintegrators [phasers set on kill],<BR>
> Antimatter missiles (only Tl 17) [photon torpedoes], long range <BR>
> tractors [tractor beams], self aware computers [federation<BR>
> computers], pseudo reality is commonplace [holodecks], worlds<BR>
> of any size can be terraformed [the Genesis Effect], Advanced<BR>
> bioengineering [The Borg] (although pseudobiological prosthesis's<BR>
> are only Tl 15], matter transport [transporters], and antimatter<BR>
> power plants [like the Enterprise]. ST:TOS is about TL 18-19,<BR>
> and ST:NG is a Tl or two higher.<BR>
<BR>
Interestingly, according to "Book 3: Worlds and Adventures," <BR>
"matter transport" becomes available shockingly early, at only<BR>
Tech Level 16.  I vaguely recall that matter transportation was<BR>
discussed in detail in "Adventure 12: Secret of the Ancients," <BR>
but since I no longer (alas!) have a copy of that book, I can't<BR>
say whether the development of matter transportation at Tech <BR>
Level 16 has been "de-canonized."  In my opinion, however,<BR>
convenient "receiverless" matter transportation ("Star Trek's" <BR>
transporters) should *not* be available of Tech Level 16!  I'd<BR>
also push "Star Trek's" replicators up into technologically<BR>
inaccessible territory, if only because of their sweeping (and<BR>
probably incomprehensible) effects upon economics.  Likewise,<BR>
I'd say that the Genesis Device of "Star Trek II: the Wrath of <BR>
Khan" is probably equal to just about anything Grandfather ever<BR>
did, and certainly lies *far* beyond Tech Level 19 (and *ought*<BR>
to be beyond the Federation's capabilities, even in the "Next<BR>
Generation" era).  But forgive this digression...I wasn't<BR>
trying to turn this into an attempt to describe "Star Trek"<BR>
with the "Traveller" Tech Level scale!  Back to the Darrians!<BR>
 <BR>
> If we center the Maghiz elsewhere people on Darrian live and<BR>
> suffer economic losses when the wavefornt reaches Darrian<BR>
> but the culture is not destroyed. instead the Maghiz dammages<BR>
> the economy and changes the culture. After the Darrians<BR>
> see first hand just what playing with science can cause they<BR>
> limit (or even ban) scientific research on items about TL 15 <BR>
> or so. Because of this social change their rate of scientific <BR>
> progress slows to a crawl. By 500 Imperial all of Darrian<BR>
> space is at a solid TL 17 and Darrians are almost as technioally<BR>
> conservative as the Vilani are. As the Darrians begin to perceive<BR>
> the threat of the Imperials and the Zhodani they begin to increase<BR>
> tehir technology and by Milieu 1100 they are at a solid TL 18,<BR>
> sell TL 17 stuff for export, and have research stations with<BR>
> experimental TL 19 items.<BR>
<BR>
Introducing Virus-like technology, as an industrial accident <BR>
rather than a bizarre weapon of mass destruction, would also<BR>
put the breaks on the Maghiz-free Darrians' technological<BR>
progress.  If, furthermore, you assume that "the Darrian Virus"<BR>
could *only* infect the highly advanced (Tech Level 16 or higher)<BR>
computers which the Darrians were using (perhaps because of some<BR>
dramatic change in the hardware itself), then there would be no<BR>
real danger of a universal Collapse.  A few "Darrian Vampires"<BR>
might escape and wander around the ruins of the Second Imperium,<BR>
but since they wouldn't find anyone advanced enough to provide<BR>
maintenance, and they wouldn't be able to infect any of the<BR>
primitive local computers, they would be a fairly short-lived<BR>
threat.  By the beginning of the Third Imperium's sixth century,<BR>
the "Maghiz-free, post-Virus" Darrians would have recovered, but<BR>
centuries of paranoia towards experimental computer technology<BR>
would have slowed their progress down a bit...<BR>
<BR>
                                                   - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:05:21 EDT<BR>
From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
>In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem that threatens <BR>
>to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large asteroid is heading <BR>
>towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
><BR>
>The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months <BR>
>or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What <BR>
>level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the planet?<BR>
<BR>
 Based on two disaster movies (in the same summer, even!) and at least one <BR>
book (Thunder Strike by McCollum), you need to either break it up with enough <BR>
force to get good scatter away from the impact line, or you need to PUSH it <BR>
off of the impact line using either another rock or lots of explosives. The <BR>
earlier you catch it, the easier either will be.<BR>
 Given the size of the rock you are describing, I'd probably send all the <BR>
orbital tugs (and anyone else who could usefully *push* with the nose of a <BR>
ship) I could muster out there to nudge the sucker over a period of several <BR>
weeks. Traveller tech gives you this option, even with HEPlaR ships. Caught <BR>
early enough, a large direct-damage-oriented nuke (as opposed to the x-ray <BR>
pumpers used in TNE and later missiles) could also nudge it enough.<BR>
<BR>
GC<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:11:42 +0100<BR>
From: Brian Caball <boc@raidtec.ie><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
TNE was my first exposure to Traveller (yes, I'm a young one), and I'm still<BR>
trying to figure out why so many people hate it.  Hopefully, this thread<BR>
will be enlightening.<BR>
<BR>
TNE was also my first exposure to traveller. I quite liked the game, and<BR>
played it fairly often. Then I joined the local university roleplaying<BR>
society, who had an extensive library, including many MT books. I felt so<BR>
cheated, that there was this EMENSE wealth of stuff that I'd never even<BR>
heard of! Here was me with my two mapped sub-sectors, and those gawd awful<BR>
maps of the Imperium, beholding DGP dot maps and the large fold out map of<BR>
the spinward marches! (I like maps) (BTW, I've still never even SEEN a copy<BR>
of "Atlas of the imperium"). TNE seemed to assume that all it's players<BR>
already knew about all this stuff, even if they didn't have it. The thought<BR>
of a totally new player just didn't seem to come into it. T4, IMHO, suffered<BR>
the same flaw. I LOVE GT 'cos they are rehashing a lot of stuff that maybe<BR>
all the people who've been playing since '77 have seen before, but I<BR>
certainly have not. <BR>
<BR>
I brief, the best thing about traveller in my opinion is the background,<BR>
which TNE destroyed. To a person exposed only to TNE, this shockingly large<BR>
and detailed world was only barely hinted at. <BR>
<BR>
- -Brian Caball<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:12:23 GMT<BR>
From: "Andrew Hewson" <loup_wolf@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
>From: GypsyComet@aol.com<BR>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
>Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:05:21 EDT<BR>
><BR>
> >In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem that <BR>
>threatens<BR>
> >to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large asteroid is <BR>
>heading<BR>
> >towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
> ><BR>
<BR>
you may want to look at the B.I.T.S scenario "Space Dogs" .... if you can <BR>
get hold of it ;_)<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
Andy				loup_wolf@hotmail.com<BR>
========================******========================<BR>
Trolls aren't stupid !  They're thermally challenged<BR>
<BR>
________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:22:52 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger wrote :-<BR>
> The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months <BR>
> or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What <BR>
> level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the planet?<BR>
<BR>
The local astronomy community must be strapped for equipment to miss<BR>
this one if the local TL is Early-Average Stellar or so. 6-12 months is<BR>
very little warning.<BR>
<BR>
30 X 26 X 15km = 11700km^3<BR>
Assuming 3g/cc density, this is 34100 megatonnes of rock.<BR>
<BR>
We need to know how fast it's going, and how much trajectory deviation<BR>
is required to effect a miss.<BR>
It's going to take a large amount of delta vee to knock it off course,<BR>
just on its size alone.<BR>
<BR>
Multiple megaton yield nukes?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:38:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
GypsyComet@aol.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  Given the size of the rock you are describing, I'd probably send all the <BR>
> orbital tugs (and anyone else who could usefully *push* with the nose of a <BR>
> ship) I could muster out there to nudge the sucker over a period of several<BR>
>  weeks.<BR>
Well, given that no-one spotted this rock until 6-12 months before impact (and, incidentally, they will know _exactly_ when it will hit) this probably isn't a terribly developed system.<BR>
<BR>
In any case, to shift a rock by, say, 20,000 kilometers in 6 months:<BR>
20,000 km = 2e7 meters.<BR>
6 months = 1.5e7 meters.<BR>
At 1 G, it would move about 1e+15 meters in 6 months.  Thus, we need 2e-8 Gs.<BR>
30km * 26km * 15km = 1.17e+13 m^3 assuming a brick, which it probably isn't. <BR>
Actual mass is probably 3-6e+13 tons.  Going with 5e13 tons, we need 1e6 tons of thrust for 6 months to shift the rock.  Odds are, that isn't present in-system (or the problem would never have arisen).<BR>
<BR>
The best chance would be jumping outsystem to get help.  I assume this isn't viable for some reason, since the PCs wouldn't be in much danger of being flattened in that case.<BR>
<BR>
Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.  Unfortunately, that would require an awful lot of low-grade nuclear weapons.  Offhand, I can't think of any actions which would be more effective than simply pushing on the rock.<BR>
<BR>
Incidentally, if it hits, nominal yield is probably 1-10e15 tons of TNT, crater size is going to be 250-500 kilometers.  This is an extinction-level impact, but survivable if you aren't near the impact region and have the ability to survive for years (or decades) without agriculture.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:56:18 +0200<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: RE: The new ERA - Long<BR>
<BR>
Subject:  The new ERA - Long<BR>
 Regarding questions on the TNE I can only give you a very personal view<BR>
 of the evolution in the traveller background.<BR>
<BR>
 1) CT was fun in the beginning because it was the first etc... The vastness<BR>
 of the Imperium and the mysterious neighbours to Coreward played an<BR>
 important role. The CT system was also nice in allowing any kind of<BR>
 campaign to be playedif you wanted it. The biggest problem was actually the<BR>
same<BR>
thing after a first taste you realise the Imperium is really a frustratingly<BR>
stable entity.<BR>
Players want to influence the galaxy not single worlds. The only potential<BR>
 destabilising factor was the Zhodani (lets admit the Sword Worlds, Vagr and<BR>
 Solomani are puny compared to the Imperium - furthermore the canon made<BR>
 them more or less unsuitable for playing in (too dangerous)).<BR>
<BR>
 We toyed by playing around with the idea of a group of Zhodani spies in the<BR>
Imperium and later getting involved in the next coreward expedition. IN<BR>
those days<BR>
the JTAS ranted that Traveller forced players to get involved in illegal<BR>
and covert activities and that that was  bad thing for the young influential<BR>
minds playing traveller.<BR>
<BR>
 Nevertheless what really showed me the Traveller world was too stable was<BR>
 the 5th frontier war. In fact this was a rather pathetic event, almost over<BR>
 before the rest of the Imperium found out about it and not exploited as a<BR>
way to<BR>
swing more excitement in the canon. The Zhodani were then reconfigured as a<BR>
sort<BR>
of ultra-stable society with no real interest in expansion or Imperial<BR>
defeat. At this<BR>
point my interest in Traveller waned.<BR>
<BR>
I liked the CT system because there was little emphasis on Experience<BR>
 points, the journey is the reason not the end.<BR>
<BR>
2) Rebellion: Now this was a good idea and when I became aware of it (late)<BR>
I picked up on Traveller again. The Shattered Imperium was a much better<BR>
place to<BR>
adventure, with known unstable places, treason, plots etc... A premium was<BR>
on<BR>
stability in some areas. This sounded like fun. The drawback was that the<BR>
conflict soon took<BR>
 cataclismic proportions with little opportunity for mere mortals to play a<BR>
role.<BR>
<BR>
3) TNE : The release of the Virus is brilliant background on the one hand,<BR>
on the other it was a bit of a nuclear option. The rules rewrite I didnt<BR>
even read as an<BR>
experienced RPGer they are merely a framework to me and my campaigns never<BR>
get<BR>
over-technical (i am a lawyer hehe). I devoured most TNE background but I<BR>
find it hard to<BR>
envisage a campaign in that environment: its so lethal. I have considered<BR>
short<BR>
adventures but as a GM and player I like longer running things and long term<BR>
survival did<BR>
not appear likely - cyberpunks don't age well. The reformation coalition<BR>
suffered a bit from - paradoxically - a small backdrop and their survival<BR>
against Virus<BR>
stretches the suspension of disbelief a bit too far from me. My impression<BR>
was they attempted to<BR>
correct this with the Regency in the ole familiar Spinward Marches but the<BR>
effort was<BR>
unbalanced.<BR>
<BR>
 In fact a number of Regency like pocket imperia, surrounding a black hole<BR>
over Capital would have been ideal. The idea of the psionic wave hitting the<BR>
Zhodani was<BR>
brilliant though. Also by that time it was my feeling the community had<BR>
already<BR>
rejected TNE.<BR>
If the analogy for the Imperium is Rome than it must be said that at times<BR>
the Roman Empire was too stable to be interesting. Nevertheless their<BR>
meeting with the Parthians<BR>
is very interesting: it was the cold war 'avant la lettre'. Continua<BR>
incursions, border<BR>
skirmishes, attempting to destabilise kingdoms and provinces along the<BR>
border, etc and now and again a hot war which neither managed to win. In the<BR>
end it is<BR>
the first recorded notion of the recognition of state by one Nation of<BR>
another.<BR>
Roman literature first records Parthians as barbarians and only after<BR>
Trajan's<BR>
crushing defeat of the Parthian empire which the Romans could not<BR>
consolidate did they<BR>
recognise Parthia as an equal- not a client but an equal. A bit ofthat would<BR>
have<BR>
been good in Traveller ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
A man without any wisdom to add to his signature<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:10:15 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
At 03:22 AM 07/20/2000 +1000, you wrote:<BR>
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote :-<BR>
> > The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months<BR>
> > or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What<BR>
> > level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the planet?<BR>
><BR>
>The local astronomy community must be strapped for equipment to miss<BR>
>this one if the local TL is Early-Average Stellar or so. 6-12 months is<BR>
>very little warning.<BR>
<BR>
The scenario takes place in my Morrow Project/Traveller crossover <BR>
PBEM.  Earth has pretty much 1800's tech except for several high tech <BR>
enclaves that are not 'looking to the stars'.  There is an Imperial task <BR>
force in-system as well as a Ziru Sirka task force as well.  Both are <BR>
antagonistic towards the other and are courting various polities and the <BR>
Project on earth.<BR>
<BR>
Enter the current situation.  The pre-collapse US government knew about the <BR>
rock and even prepared a mission crew and ship to intercept it.  The <BR>
collapse wrecked those plans and fortunately the rock missed the first time <BR>
around.  Now it is on it's way back and the mission crew has just been <BR>
awakened and the current story explained to the players.<BR>
<BR>
>30 X 26 X 15km = 11700km^3<BR>
>Assuming 3g/cc density, this is 34100 megatonnes of rock.<BR>
><BR>
>We need to know how fast it's going, and how much trajectory deviation<BR>
>is required to effect a miss.<BR>
>It's going to take a large amount of delta vee to knock it off course,<BR>
>just on its size alone.<BR>
><BR>
>Multiple megaton yield nukes?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>Robert O'Connor<BR>
>Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:20:24 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Mike Demetro wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
> > style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
> > the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
> <BR>
> TNE was my first exposure to Traveller (yes, I'm a young one), and I'm<BR>
> still trying to figure out why so many people hate it.  Hopefully, this<BR>
> thread will be enlightening.<BR>
<BR>
Many people really hated the utter destruction of the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
There were a lot of people who had a serious emotional investment in<BR>
that alternate reality, and just throwing it away meant that their<BR>
investment was worthless.<BR>
<BR>
Many people hated the entire concept of Virus. (To them I say go reread<BR>
Adventure 13, carefully..._all_ the elements of Virus are there, from<BR>
Marc's own hand) <BR>
<BR>
Some people think that playing with D10's is for pervos. <BR>
<BR>
Some people mourned the loss of reactionless thrusters. <BR>
<BR>
(Oddly some people ranted that Virus was just unbelievable, because<BR>
their DOS computer couldn't be infected that way, and simultaneously<BR>
ranted that Heplar was too realistic, since you now needed fuel for<BR>
normal space travel)<BR>
<BR>
But primarily the destruction of the 3I and Virus were the main sticking<BR>
points.<BR>
<BR>
As Douglas says, the time was ugly on the list. The list split into two<BR>
separate factions...separate lists. I've never seen it that ugly before<BR>
or since.<BR>
<BR>
My .02 cr is that TNE did a lot to bring the background back to a scale<BR>
that the PC's could influence, and that Virus is a hell of a fascinating<BR>
concept, and not nearly as far fetched as some of the more anti-virus<BR>
gearheads think. Then again, I'm trained as a biologist and biochemist,<BR>
there's a lot of stuff out there in the biological world that<BR>
approximates Virus. Like, well, viruses! <BR>
<BR>
Is it the end-all and be-all of Traveller? No. Is it Traveller? Most<BR>
emphatically YES.<BR>
<BR>
Some people feel the same way about GURPS. Some people feel that<BR>
everything since the LBB's has been heresy compounded.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2786<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2787<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
re:  X-Men in Traveller<BR>
Re: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. <BR>
Re: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
Re: Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: The New Era (Long)<BR>
Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
Not a Traveller Question...  but a request for IT help!<BR>
re:  The New Era<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: K'kree battledress was Re: Better wounded than dead<BR>
re:  Other way around?<BR>
RE: The new ERA - Long<BR>
Landgrab - Conway 2735 - Trin's Veil<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Vs: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
Re: Modular Spacecraft Design Questions<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Powerful Characters (was "RE: The new...")<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:19:21 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  X-Men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
<BR>
>BTW, anyone caring to discuss single malt scotch, please <BR>
>contact me at your pleasure.<BR>
<BR>
Umm -- single malt scotches.  Not my drink, but not one to<BR>
malign, either.  Where are you located?  Several of us will<BR>
be discussing, inter alia, the role of single malt scotch<BR>
in the Solomani consolidation after the Interstellar Wars<BR>
at the Caribbean Zone in San Francisco on Friday, starting<BR>
about 7 p.m.  Please join us if you're around here.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:23:34 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: That URL doesn't go where you think it goes. <BR>
<BR>
> > There's even a .50 pistol. I saw it on www.bigguns.com <BR>
> > being fired by a 14-15 year old girl. The pistol had<BR>
one<BR>
<BR>
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/pixs/tw.gif<BR>
<BR>
Is that one of Ditzie's ancestors?  That is a _big_ gun.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
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<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:24:46 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
<BR>
>In GT I had a problem of the tremendous protection of armour being a matter<BR>
>of heroes being invulnerable or liquefied when I read the books. In play I<BR>
>tried to restrict access to military hardware. But I still wish it were a<BR>
>bit smoother with more middle.<BR>
<BR>
Combat in GT is realistically deadly.  One solution for a GM<BR>
is to not take shots at the vitals or brain and use the blow<BR>
throught rules.  Though in the end combat is more about<BR>
not getting hit rather than having a foe wear down your hitpoints,<BR>
something I prefer....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:15:15 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
> When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
> style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
> the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
<BR>
TNE was the first incarnation of Traveller that I bought. (I'm only twenty,<BR>
and I bought in about three/four years ago.) I bought the rulebook second<BR>
hand along with FFS, and immediately fell in love with the setting. Further<BR>
reading brought me to FFS, and I fell in love with that too - it was pretty<BR>
much the first RPG I'd bought with a detailed design system, rather than an<BR>
equipment list.<BR>
<BR>
However, since then I've bought into all the other incarnations - yes, even<BR>
T4. I think I'm able to give a fairly balanced overview between all the<BR>
rulesets (though I admit I'm not too familiar with MegaTrav) and TNE will<BR>
always have a special place in my heart. The biggest complaint I've heard<BR>
about the setting is the believability of Virus. Well, I figure if we can<BR>
handwave ContraGrav and Jump Drives, handwaving Virus takes a lot less<BR>
talking.<BR>
<BR>
It's not for the rules that I use TNE - I don't really like them. It's the<BR>
setting I love; a chance to climb back out of the ruins and make a<BR>
difference. A chance to rebuild what we once had and we threw away. I still<BR>
use a bastardised TNE setting, although my ruleset is a mix of GURPS, CT and<BR>
T4 with the TNE vehicle design rules overlaid. I took the aspects of the Ref<BR>
Coalition I liked, removed the bits I didn't find so palatable, and moved<BR>
the whole thing to Ley Sector. See my website. I'm going to talk about my<BR>
campaign now for a couple of paragraphs. Feel free to skip over them.<BR>
<BR>
My setting has a slightly different feel to the RC. There's a lot less<BR>
political infighting, and fewer human bad guys. The challenge is shifted<BR>
from 'beating up the bad guys' towards overcoming the environment. Since one<BR>
of the big environmental challenges is Viral infection (this is, after all,<BR>
behind the Black Curtain) there's still plenty of scope for combat.<BR>
<BR>
I tend to the macro scale, too. The campaign is telling the story of how<BR>
three worlds pulled each other back up from the night, so the players tend<BR>
to wind up doing important stuff. They'll be switching characters quite<BR>
frequently too, as we fast forward through time. Previous characters will<BR>
stick around as NPCs, as they'll probably be quite important figures in the<BR>
grand scheme of things.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, that sort of sums up the aspects of TNE that I like.<BR>
<BR>
CT....well, I do like it, although I'm not a great fan of the rules. They're<BR>
not toally comprehensive, and they're not vague in a freeform way. Rather<BR>
they're quite detailed in some specific areas and leave vast tracts<BR>
untouched. No problem, given that it's a game from Way Back When I Was<BR>
Monocelled. It's just not my style. I appreciate that it's perfect for many<BR>
people.<BR>
<BR>
MT...got the books, never really got around to using them, largely since I<BR>
bought them just before I started revising for my first year exams.<BR>
<BR>
T4....we all know about the quality; but I have a sneaking feeling that if<BR>
the business aspects had been properly addressed we'd have seen a wonderful<BR>
game shining through under there. Which is why I nicked bits of the rules<BR>
for my Eris-would-be-proud system.<BR>
<BR>
GURPS.....well, it's shiny and well presented. In many cases the rules are<BR>
far too detailed for what I want to do. But finally I've realised that in<BR>
cases like this I can just ignore the rules and wing it. I also have a thing<BR>
for hideously lengthy character generation sequences, so I like that aspect<BR>
of the game. To be honest, I like the GURPS rules. Or rather, I like a<BR>
streamlined version of the GURPS rules where the players haven't seen the<BR>
rulebook much and roll when they're told to.<BR>
<BR>
BITS....most of the books are of limited use in my setting, but I own about<BR>
half of them, and they're great for the Imperial setting. (Of course, BITS<BR>
are great - buy all their stuff, guys. ;-p )<BR>
<BR>
Confused rant over.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:43:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
> Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might<BR>
be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.<BR>
<BR>
Alright, physicists. I know I'm only an engineer, so my grasp of physical<BR>
laws is limited to "pour lots of concrete on it and it won't move", but how<BR>
exactly does a nuclear explosion shift a mass like that in space?<BR>
<BR>
What about conservation of momentum? Surely a nuke only gives out a lot of<BR>
radiated energy if there's no medium to carry a shock wave. No mass gets<BR>
pushed in the other direction, so how do we account for the change in<BR>
momentum of the asteroid?<BR>
<BR>
Does the heat wave vapourise the top layer of rock and boil it off or<BR>
something? Even if it does, I can't see that shifting an asteroid very far.<BR>
<BR>
Help?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
> > Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might<BR>
> be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.<BR>
> <BR>
> Alright, physicists. I know I'm only an engineer, so my grasp of physical<BR>
> laws is limited to "pour lots of concrete on it and it won't move", but how<BR>
> exactly does a nuclear explosion shift a mass like that in space?<BR>
<BR>
It vaporizes chunks of the rock, which act as a pulse rocket.  This isn't terribly efficient.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:52:39 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> When I ran a Twilight 2000 second edition game for a short while after even<BR>
> second edition was out of date, I made a few timeline adjustments. Being a<BR>
> student of W.W.II Japanese history, I predicted a little after the fall of<BR>
> the eastern bloc that the real danger in Russia was military cantonment. I<BR>
> figured a government that could not control its army would lose the loyalty<BR>
> to individual commanders who would attach themselves to cities in exchange<BR>
> for food and supplies. What you could end up with is a Kremlin unable to<BR>
> control the army that is powerful, loyal to local generals and increasingly<BR>
> aggressive and adventurous. You could go three routes with this:<BR>
> <BR>
> a) Mercenary armies that pack the punch of a hefty percentage of the USSR.<BR>
> b) Roman style dictators, generals, civil wars and bloodbaths abroad.<BR>
> c) A W.W.II Japanese style army that is distant from its civil government<BR>
> and entirely uncontrolled except by its own local leaders.<BR>
<BR>
All of this assumes a working industrial infrastructure, which simply<BR>
wouldn't exist.<BR>
<BR>
And aggressive, adventuring army would have to live off the land.<BR>
Entirely possible when you're using swords and spears, entirely<BR>
infeasable when you need ammo and vehicle parts.<BR>
<BR>
A military cantonment is remarkably like a feudal estate: While the<BR>
peasants have to support the noble; the noble, at least if he wishes to<BR>
continue eating, is just as tied to the peasantry. That really cuts back<BR>
on the adventuring, and enforces a far more defensive outlook. <BR>
<BR>
If the USSR broke up into a warlord/cantonment type studture, they would<BR>
be rather inffective as offensive threats to the outside world, except<BR>
towards each other. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:55:07 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller and Military Cantons<BR>
<BR>
[Note: since it is bound to come up, I'm using the more comon defintion<BR>
of democracy rather then the more technical one that demands direct<BR>
participation.  If one doesn't like that they can substitute the<BR>
suitable refrences to a "Republic", etc.]<BR>
<BR>
At 9:02 PM -0800 7/18/0, Mike Demetro wrote:<BR>
>Nixon escalated bombing in<BR>
>Vietnam after the laws allowing US involvement were repealed. I forget my US<BR>
>history in terms of the actual bill. I simply meant it was frightening to<BR>
>think how shaky US democracy is. It is not that the government would use<BR>
>full force over every litle thing. It is just that they can railroad anyone<BR>
>questioning the legality of unilateral decisions.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this isn't accurate.  The president had the authority<BR>
to us the armed forces as part of his position as the commander<BR>
in Chief.  Things like the Gulf of Tonkin resolution are just<BR>
expressions of political support.  Now congress did have a way<BR>
to stop the bombing if they really wanted to, they could have<BR>
cut off funding.  But they chose not to.  That isn't the negation<BR>
of democracy, it is democracy in action.<BR>
<BR>
It is true that the authority of Congress to declare war need<BR>
reconciling with the authority of the President to order military<BR>
involvements.  But that is not same thing as ingnoring the law....<BR>
<BR>
>Only a single US senator<BR>
>spoke up over Kosovo. If the American ruling class WERE actually threatened<BR>
>they would pull no punches, however, law or no law.<BR>
<BR>
It is alwasy easy to allege the hypothetical events would prove<BR>
one's case....<BR>
<BR>
> The Seattle police's use<BR>
>of not only tear gas but concussion grenades recently was alarming. There<BR>
>were a bunch of vegetarian tree hugging hippies dressed as turtles blocking<BR>
>the front entrance of a building and they were  dumped on because a couple<BR>
>nearby windows were broken. *sigh*<BR>
<BR>
I watched, on local public access, come coverage by local demonstrators<BR>
themselves.  I must say, it was full of spin and bias and the real<BR>
impression it showed was that they wanted to provoke a confronation to<BR>
complain about.  They would do provocative things and then if any one<BR>
situation came about that they could cite, they would ignore all context.<BR>
I don't know if the police never overreacted in Seattle, but the other side<BR>
was hardly innocent people just expressing their views....<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:59:33 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
>Many people hated the entire concept of Virus. (To them I say go reread<BR>
>Adventure 13, carefully..._all_ the elements of Virus are there, from<BR>
>Marc's own hand)<BR>
<BR>
I don't think that makes a difference to many who don't like<BR>
virus.  Basing the entire setting around something one finds<BR>
hokey is a lot different than having it in one adventure.<BR>
You may not like either, but one can put up with one a lot<BR>
easier than the other.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:02:01 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "Joseph Alberti Jr." <albertijjr@juno.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era (Long)<BR>
<BR>
I agree with some of the others who say it was the destruction of the Third<BR>
Imperium background and the idea of the AI Virus.<BR>
<BR>
The Third Imperium was a well known and beloved background for many players<BR>
of the game.  It was familiar and was not overly combat/violence driven. <BR>
Merchant, explorers, and mercenaries all could find adventure.<BR>
<BR>
I enjoyed the background and the Classic Traveller game when I first strated<BR>
to play in 1983.  But over time I personnaly found that the background<BR>
started to stagnate.  The Imperium was large, powerful and stable.  It<BR>
seemed to me and my friends that the only way you could  have great<BR>
adventure was to break one of the Imperial laws in some way.<BR>
<BR>
Once MegaTraveller came out, I was very pleased.  The conflict of political<BR>
principals and destruction of the status quo was interesting to me.  I have<BR>
had the most roleplaying and gamemastering fun in the MegaTraveller Era.  I<BR>
enjoyed the background, because of these ideological conflicts and the fact<BR>
that the well known Third Imperium was still around, but changing.  I found<BR>
the great figures : Strephon, Dulinor, Lucan, Margaret, and Norris<BR>
compelling.<BR>
<BR>
But, the whole situation went out of control and the AI virus wiped it all<BR>
out.  I would have liked to have seen the Third Imperium survive the Hard<BR>
Times (in a different form than before the Rebellion) rather than totally<BR>
destroyed by the AI Virus.<BR>
<BR>
The AI Virus has caused some stir concerning its realism.  I have never been<BR>
concerned over the technical details.  It is hard for me to imagine a<BR>
TL15-17 super weapon. To me, the AI Virus is a reasonable representation of<BR>
a super weapon.  I just do not like what it did to the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
I also did not care for the TNE Twilight 2000 game mechanics.  I have always<BR>
liked the more simple MegaTraveller mechanics.<BR>
<BR>
Joe Alberti<BR>
"Long Live Emperor Dulinor!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:04:28 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
<BR>
>From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@worldnet.att.net><BR>
><BR>
>Now more importantly. Address?<BR>
<BR>
Caribbean Zone<BR>
55 Natoma St<BR>
San Francisco, CA 94105<BR>
(415) 541-9465<BR>
<BR>
Natoma is parallel to and between Mission and Howard.  The<BR>
Caribbean Zone is in that part of Natoma between First and<BR>
Second.  <BR>
<BR>
I will be there, possibly with some out-of-town guests of<BR>
my girlfriend.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
P.S. Good luck, Kiri.<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:13:49 -0400<BR>
From: Robert Sanders <RSanders@mpprint.com><BR>
Subject: Not a Traveller Question...  but a request for IT help!<BR>
<BR>
Greetings,<BR>
<BR>
As a long time lurker I know that many of you are in the IT field, and with<BR>
that in mind I have a question.  Please respond directly, saving bandwidth.<BR>
<BR>
1. There is a new database schema that has been created which includes new<BR>
tables and additions to our current tables<BR>
  <BR>
2. What we would like to do, in the easy way possible, is copy the new<BR>
schema over all the existing client's (our customers) databases but keep the<BR>
current client's data intact.<BR>
 <BR>
3.  The only way I know is to copy the data elsewhere, create the new<BR>
schema, then copy the data back. This is very time consuming. ( This way has<BR>
been tested and does work)<BR>
 <BR>
The network OS is Windows NT 4.0, Using Microsoft SQL 7.0 for the databases.<BR>
The new schema is on a different server (with same NOS and database<BR>
software)<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
Any help would be great!<BR>
<BR>
Thank you! <BR>
<BR>
Bob<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert Sanders<BR>
Vice President, Information Technology and Development<BR>
Market Place Print<BR>
4800 USX Tower, 600 Grant Street<BR>
Pittsburgh, PA  15219<BR>
(412) 395-7750<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  The New Era<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
<BR>
>When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the<BR>
>change of to T2K style rules? That was my reason for<BR>
>avoiding it. What was the reaction to the background? How<BR>
>did you each feel?<BR>
<BR>
Do I smell smoke?  Yes, that's definitely smoke.  <sniff,<BR>
sniff>  Smoke from aviation fuel, I believe.  Yes, aviation<BR>
fuel and possibly napalm.  <sniff>  Maybe a sprinkling of<BR>
white phosphorus, but primarily aviation fuel and napalm,<BR>
most definitely.  <BR>
<BR>
Mike, I'm sure that the answers to your questions are<BR>
contained in the TML archives of the time.  Please go have<BR>
a good look.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
On the other hand, maybe it would be better to go through<BR>
the TNE flamewar again -- at least it was generally on<BR>
topic.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:16:36<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: K'kree battledress was Re: Better wounded than dead<BR>
<BR>
At 12:22 PM 7/19/2000 -0400, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>I would say that K'kree don't do battledress or vac suits for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
Well, as a star-faring species they would need to have them.<BR>
<BR>
I think a good anaolgy would be human paratroopers.  The fear of heights is<BR>
one of the most common fears in all people, going back to our days swinging<BR>
in the trees.  Imagine stepping out the back of an airplane 1250 above the<BR>
ground, at night.  Most people consuider Airborne troops nuts.<BR>
<BR>
This would be the same for Kkree trained to endure battledress.  They would<BR>
be *the* elite, and treated with the awe that is normally given to beserkers.<BR>
<BR>
K'kree vacc suits would probably have very large "helmets," actually being<BR>
large balloon-like structures.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:34:50 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: re:  Other way around?<BR>
<BR>
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
>Didn't those former Eastern Block countries ask to be part<BR>
>of NATO, rather than NATO asking them to join?<BR>
<BR>
I thought the impetus came from western weapons<BR>
manufacturers, who wanted Warsaw Pact countries to become<BR>
NATO countries and then have to buy NATO-compatible gear. <BR>
Of course, the Warsaw Pact countries can't afford to buy<BR>
all new weapons, so the western governments would lend them<BR>
the money.  Where would the western governments get the<BR>
money?  From my pocket, and yours, in the form of taxes. <BR>
Whether or not the ex-WP countries ever paid the loans<BR>
back, you and I will never see that money again.<BR>
<BR>
Now _that_ is a welfare scam.<BR>
<BR>
This project is or was known as the Partners for Peace.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:43:12 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: The new ERA - Long<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
>The biggest problem was actually the same thing after a<BR>
>first taste you realise the Imperium is really a<BR>
>frustratingly stable entity. Players want to influence the<BR>
>galaxy not single worlds. <BR>
<BR>
I hear this from time to time, but I have yet to meet a<BR>
player who was interested in acquiring anything like this<BR>
much power, and I have been playing various role-playing<BR>
games for well over twenty years.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:42:56 +0200<BR>
From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: Landgrab - Conway 2735 - Trin's Veil<BR>
<BR>
Unless someone objects I wouldnt mind having a go at Conway.<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:09:48 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
>> Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might<BR>
>be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.<BR>
><BR>
>Alright, physicists. I know I'm only an engineer, so my grasp of physical<BR>
>laws is limited to "pour lots of concrete on it and it won't move", but how<BR>
>exactly does a nuclear explosion shift a mass like that in space?<BR>
><BR>
>What about conservation of momentum? Surely a nuke only gives out a lot of<BR>
>radiated energy if there's no medium to carry a shock wave. No mass gets<BR>
>pushed in the other direction, so how do we account for the change in<BR>
>momentum of the asteroid?<BR>
><BR>
>Does the heat wave vapourise the top layer of rock and boil it off or<BR>
>something? Even if it does, I can't see that shifting an asteroid very far.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, it vaporizes the surface and as the vapor escapes, it pushes<BR>
the object to one side....<BR>
<BR>
As to how big the effect is, I don't know.  I've heard it mostly<BR>
talked about regarding comets.  (With asteroids the assumption<BR>
is that you would spot them decades in advance, land a team<BR>
to study the object, and then decide how to deal with it...)<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:49:21 +0300<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 12:18 AM<BR>
Subject: RE: 23 mm Assault GL (was Vs: FFS2 weirdness)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> I can get the weights for 23mm flechette loads (and HE) to see how they play<BR>
> out.  <BR>
<BR>
The weights I used (from 3G3) were 54,7 g for HE and 185 g for a Flechette round (4,84 g per flechette +packing and propellant & disposable case).<BR>
<BR>
> I sketched out a weapon based loosely on the DeWinter Swatriplex<BR>
> shotgun, which has 2 tubular magazines under a single barrel an a bulpup<BR>
> configuration.  <BR>
<BR>
The barrel needed is really short with this large caliber and low propellant amount. The minimu comes to 17,3 cm, and I used 52 cm to get better aiming RC. So no need to make it bullpup.<BR>
<BR>
> Scale the weapon up, and make the magazines disposable.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know the effects for this in 3G3. (Halve mass and cost?)<BR>
<BR>
> Semi-auto fire should be adequate, since you'll be launching maybe 18 SCMITR<BR>
> flechettes per round<BR>
<BR>
Yeah. Anything higher would just waste ammo.<BR>
<BR>
> (see http://weapons.travellercentral.com/media/scmitr.gif for a picture of<BR>
> SCMITR).  BTW, I doubt you'll find any RPG reference to SCMITR, as the<BR>
> round, though fully developed, has never been put into production and is<BR>
> relatively obscure. Not sure how to assign damage.<BR>
> <BR>
Would it be cutting like shrapnel or impaling like flechettes. If I understood it right the reason to use (aside from easier and cheaper manufacture) SCMITR was the low (subsonic) velocity of shotgun launched flechettes. According to my calcs both the HE and the flechettes would be supersonic even with this low propellant amount. (The long barrel helps a lot.) IMO subsonic SCIMTR would cause cutting damage, but I'm not sure about supersonic ones.<BR>
<BR>
> The US M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade runs around 250g and is 40x82mm, so<BR>
> extrapolating for a 23x60mm projectile, we get a projectile mass of around<BR>
> 240g.  Lot much loss.<BR>
> <BR>
According to 3G3 sg 3 l:w 2:1 40 mm grenade (40x80 mm) comes to 251 g (really close), and same type 23 mm (x46 mm) comes to 47,8 g, and a same size flechette one to111 g. This is without the case and propellant.<BR>
<BR>
> I have 3G3 on order (with spread sheets), so I'll see how things match up.<BR>
> <BR>
Good thing.<BR>
<BR>
The big question remains: How to simulate SCMITR? Because of their shape, some kind of average front diameter would have to be used. And what of their l:w ratio? And how well do they pack? So many questions...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:15:44 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Modular Spacecraft Design Questions<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
> I'm trying to put together a freighter using the <BR>
> "Book 5: High Guard" design rules.  The freighter<BR>
> (whose configuration is 7, "Dispersed Structure")<BR>
> carries its cargo externally, in several sealed<BR>
> cargo modules.  To get these modules to and from<BR>
> the surfaces of planets, the freighter carries a<BR>
> shuttle, which is really little more than a conical<BR>
> pressurized cockpit at one end, a long "spine" (with<BR>
> clamps for a cargo module) and drive pod at the other<BR>
> end.<BR>
> <BR>
> How do I design this system fairly, particularly <BR>
> with respect to hull prices and bridge volumes?<BR>
> <BR>
> [snip]<BR>
><BR>
> The only canonical "Classic Traveller" precedents I<BR>
> can think of are battle rider/tender systems and modular<BR>
> cutters.  How are these handled?<BR>
<BR>
For cutters and battle tenders, the maximum tonnage of the fully loaded <BR>
tender or cutter is the design tonnage, and BRs are carried craft - I'm <BR>
not sure how the modules of modular cutters are priced. <BR>
<BR>
I'd call the cargo pods "carried craft". <BR>
<BR>
This is "fair" in the sense that no one can accuse you of hacking the <BR>
rules -- it's the conservative way to go. You will be paying hull costs <BR>
twice for the hull and the cargo pods (though I might let you get away <BR>
with building the pods as dispersed structure also - they are part of <BR>
a dispersed-structure *system*, and also needn't be quite as sturdy as <BR>
ordinary starship parts, hence cheaper). <BR>
<BR>
You can write the extra hull costs off to clamps and conduit-linkage <BR>
gear. Extra bridge volume is a bit harder to justify, but maybe you can <BR>
handwave it as the workstations for the loadmasters (who might need to <BR>
work with the pilot in cargo-pod docking and undocking maneuvers) and <BR>
separate environmental controls for the pods (if your pods are pressure-<BR>
tight with separate environments). <BR>
<BR>
There's precedent for recalculating jump drive potential according to <BR>
how much cargo is carried (CT Supp 9's Jump Ship (or something like that), <BR>
drop tanks, SDB shuttles), so an unloaded freighter may be able to jump<BR>
further (I do this by recalculating the %age of jump drive and finding <BR>
the highest %age equal to or less than that on the jump drive table, <BR>
rather than simply prorating the jump drive rating according to tonnage).<BR>
<BR>
Whether or not maneuver drive potential should be recalculated, and why, <BR>
is left as an exercise for the reader. <BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:34:46 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
> Yes, it vaporizes the surface and as the vapor escapes, it pushes<BR>
> the object to one side....<BR>
<BR>
But not, I'd imagine, very fast. I guess you'd be better trying to bury a<BR>
bomb to split a chunk off. You'd get a nice explosive effect from<BR>
superheated rock to push the chunks apart, and the reaction would give a<BR>
hefty thrust to both parts. Repeat until desired result achieved.<BR>
<BR>
Dammit, I hate to admit Armageddon might have had the right idea...<g><BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:40:36 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Powerful Characters (was "RE: The new...")<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
> >From: "Julius Waller" <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
> >The biggest problem was actually the same thing after a<BR>
> >first taste you realise the Imperium is really a<BR>
> >frustratingly stable entity. Players want to influence the<BR>
> >galaxy not single worlds. <BR>
> <BR>
> I hear this from time to time, but I have yet to meet a<BR>
> player who was interested in acquiring anything like this<BR>
> much power, and I have been playing various role-playing<BR>
> games for well over twenty years.  <BR>
<BR>
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to run "movers-and-shakers"<BR>
as player characters in the "Classic Traveller" era.  The crew <BR>
of a free trader might not, for instance, be able to have a<BR>
visible effect upon the Imperium as a whole, but a duke's<BR>
hand-picked team of trouble-shooters would be another story<BR>
entirely.  Things could get even more interesting if you get<BR>
away from the "one player, one character" model, and adopt an<BR>
system like the one used in "Ars Magica," in which each player<BR>
runs a couple of detailed characters with different specializations<BR>
(in "Ars Magica," usually one wizard, and one non-wizard) plus a <BR>
pack of "spear-carriers" (otherwise known as "grogs").  <BR>
                                             <BR>
                                                    - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2787<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, July 19 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2788<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Hexagons<BR>
Moose (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
RE: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: The New Era (Long)<BR>
Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
Moving a rock - with maths<BR>
Re: Moving a rock - with maths<BR>
Re: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: X-men in Traveller<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
Re: The New Era<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:46:14 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hexagons<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:44:50 -0400 (EDT), Charles Collin<BR>
<charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Hi all. Dumb question here, but I'm trying to do a little programming and<BR>
>having a heck of a time drawing a good-looking hexagon.  Can anyone with<BR>
>experience at this let me know the solution?<BR>
<BR>
Here's some code in an obscure programming language that will draw a<BR>
regular polygon with any number of sides.  The text following explains any<BR>
'primitives' that aren't obvious.<BR>
<BR>
8<-------cut here; code below ------->8<BR>
<BR>
global procedure regular_polygon(sequence center,-- {x,y} center of polygon<BR>
                 integer sides,  -- number of sides<BR>
                 integer radius, -- size corner-to-center<BR>
                 atom angle,     -- clockwise rotation (radians)<BR>
                 integer colr,   -- color to draw/fill<BR>
                 integer fill)   -- fill in with color?<BR>
    sequence circ_points<BR>
    atom int_angle<BR>
    atom angle_incr<BR>
    sequence newpoint<BR>
    <BR>
    circ_points = {}<BR>
    angle_incr = 2 * pi / sides<BR>
    for i = 0 to sides do<BR>
        int_angle = angle_incr * i + angle<BR>
        newpoint = {radius * cos(int_angle) + center[X],<BR>
            radius * sin(int_angle) + center[Y]}<BR>
        circ_points = append(circ_points,newpoint)<BR>
    end for<BR>
    polygon(colr,fill,circ_points)<BR>
end procedure<BR>
<BR>
8<-------cut here; code above ------->8<BR>
<BR>
"sequences" are like arrays, but can be of variable length.  "atoms" are<BR>
real or integer numbers.  The expression {a,b} means to create a sequence<BR>
whose first element is a and second element is b.<BR>
<BR>
The procedure "polygon" is a procedure that, given a sequence of points<BR>
{{a,b},{a,b},...} draws lines to connect the points in the order given, and<BR>
connects the last point to the first one.  If "fill" is non-zero, the<BR>
polygon is flooded with the color specified in "colr".<BR>
<BR>
What regular_polygon does is computes what the points should be to get a<BR>
regular (equiangular/equilateral) polygon of the specified number of sides,<BR>
with the first corner at the specified angle (an angle of 0 says that the<BR>
first angle should be directly to the right of the center of the polygon).<BR>
It then calls the extant procedure "polygon" to actually draw it.  If you<BR>
need more assistance understanding what's going on, write me privately.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:46:21 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: Moose (was Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!)<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 17:45:40 -0400 (EDT), Kiri Aradia Morgan<BR>
<tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Thing wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>> The Moose is a fine, noble animal.<BR>
<BR>
>> My cousin was killed by a moose.<BR>
>> ......<BR>
 <BR>
>This reminds me of a song I better not sing.  Because if people were upset<BR>
>about Ditzie it would really get them.<BR>
<BR>
/me chuckles; he wrote a verse of it, but doesn't know if it ever got into<BR>
wide circulation...<BR>
<BR>
If you know the song (prove it - include any one verse; I'll know if it<BR>
scans properly [and is therefore legit]), and want my verse, write me<BR>
_privately_.<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin<BR>
jzeitlin@cyburban.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:51:32 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
<BR>
> But not, I'd imagine, very fast. I guess you'd be better trying to bury a<BR>
> bomb to split a chunk off. You'd get a nice explosive effect from<BR>
> superheated rock to push the chunks apart, and the reaction would give a<BR>
> hefty thrust to both parts. Repeat until desired result achieved.<BR>
<BR>
You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of destructive potential of its own.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:49:37 -0800<BR>
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
>> Yes, it vaporizes the surface and as the vapor escapes, it pushes<BR>
>> the object to one side....<BR>
><BR>
>But not, I'd imagine, very fast.<BR>
<BR>
"Fairly" fast.  Remember, you set the thing off maybe 1/4 of a diam<BR>
to one side.  Some amount of the object is instantly turned to<BR>
vapor.<BR>
<BR>
>I guess you'd be better trying to bury a<BR>
>bomb to split a chunk off. You'd get a nice explosive effect from<BR>
>superheated rock to push the chunks apart, and the reaction would give a<BR>
>hefty thrust to both parts. Repeat until desired result achieved.<BR>
<BR>
Fragmentation is generally thought to be unpredectable and a<BR>
"bad thing".<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:02:10 +0200 (MET DST)<BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
Subject: RE: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
>result.<BR>
<BR>
The problem of course is that the rock will most likely be rotating, so<BR>
the drives will only be able to work for part of the time :-)<BR>
Comets and asteroids typicaly have a rotation period of hours or days.<BR>
<BR>
>If they have a year then the acceleration required is quartered,<BR>
>but must be applied for twice as long. 80 scout ship engines would now<BR>
>suffice<BR>
><BR>
>Have fun!<BR>
><BR>
>Matt<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav<BR>
- -------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  <BR>
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  <BR>
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ <BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:12:57 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
> >result.<BR>
> <BR>
> The problem of course is that the rock will most likely be rotating, so<BR>
> the drives will only be able to work for part of the time :-)<BR>
> Comets and asteroids typicaly have a rotation period of hours or days.<BR>
<BR>
Not actually a big problem, it doesn't take long to move a ship.  There's a decent chance that the whole process of moving the rock will stop the rotation anyway. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:30:23 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era (Long)<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Joseph Alberti Jr. wrote:<BR>
> The Third Imperium was a well known and beloved background for many players<BR>
> of the game.  It was familiar and was not overly combat/violence driven. <BR>
> Merchant, explorers, and mercenaries all could find adventure.<BR>
            ^^^^^^^^^<BR>
I'd agree re. the merchants and mercenaries, but I'm not so sure about <BR>
explorers.  There were many good things to say about the Third Imperium,<BR>
but possession of a wide-open frontier and proximity to untouched<BR>
wilderness were not really among them.<BR>
                                                           - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:36:44 +1000<BR>
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
I wrote :-<BR>
> 30 X 26 X 15km = 11700km^3<BR>
> Assuming 3g/cc density, this is 34100 megatonnes of rock.<BR>
> <BR>
Duh! This should be 34100 gigatonnes.<BR>
<BR>
That'll teach me to post at three in the morning...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Robert O'Connor<BR>
Medico, Gamer<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:43:57 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
<BR>
> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
> Subject: Moving a rock...<BR>
><BR>
> Howdy!<BR>
><BR>
> In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem that<BR>
threatens<BR>
> to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large asteroid is heading<BR>
> towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
><BR>
> The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months<BR>
> or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What<BR>
> level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the<BR>
planet?<BR>
><BR>
> Thanks in advance!<BR>
<BR>
Sounds like a job for a Lab Ship.<BR>
<BR>
You are going to need to apply petanewtons onto that baby.<BR>
<BR>
Assuming that the rock is as dense as water, it has a mass of ummm<BR>
30*26*15*10^27 kilos, or roughly 3*10^27 tons.<BR>
<BR>
Moving that at a leisurely 0.1cm per second per second with thus take<BR>
3*10^26 kiloNewtons.<BR>
<BR>
Lessee. Lets spread that out over 10 000 seconds. Takes it down to a thrust<BR>
of 3*10^22.<BR>
<BR>
Nukes. Lots of nukes. Lots of big nukes.<BR>
<BR>
Or a Lab Ship.<BR>
<BR>
If you cant find a Lab Ship, please contact your local Imperial Admiral, or<BR>
Famile Spofulam representative.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:59:20 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
<BR>
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
That should've gone to Traveller in SF list -- sorry about<BR>
the waste.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Get Yahoo! Mail  Free email you can access from anywhere!<BR>
http://mail.yahoo.com/<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:04:43 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
> "Fairly" fast.  Remember, you set the thing off maybe 1/4 of a diam<BR>
> to one side.  Some amount of the object is instantly turned to<BR>
> vapor.<BR>
<BR>
I remain sceptical, but as I said I'm an engineer, so my ideal solution<BR>
would be to whack the asteroid with a REALLY BIG spanner until the problem<BR>
went away. This is what we keep physicists around the place for, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
> Fragmentation is generally thought to be unpredectable and a<BR>
> "bad thing".<BR>
and<BR>
>You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of destructive<BR>
potential of its own.<BR>
<BR>
Conceeded. But as a last resort....<BR>
<BR>
You'd have rubble, but it would be an expanding cloud of rubble, so more<BR>
rock would miss the planet than if the asteroid impacted. And that which hit<BR>
would be in smaller chunks, so more likely to burn up in the atmosphere,<BR>
right? Okay, maybe this is more of a last resort tactic.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:17:40 -0500<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
<BR>
Back in 1997, when all of that nonsense about the Earth being In The Way of<BR>
an Asteroid was being bandied about, I thought it would be an interesting<BR>
excercise to alter the asteroid's trajectory until it would fall into a<BR>
useful orbit around the Earth.<BR>
<BR>
This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for a<BR>
fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much "Raw<BR>
Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 1:04 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > "Fairly" fast.  Remember, you set the thing off maybe 1/4 of a diam<BR>
> > to one side.  Some amount of the object is instantly turned to<BR>
> > vapor.<BR>
><BR>
> I remain sceptical, but as I said I'm an engineer, so my ideal solution<BR>
> would be to whack the asteroid with a REALLY BIG spanner until the problem<BR>
> went away. This is what we keep physicists around the place for, anyway.<BR>
><BR>
> > Fragmentation is generally thought to be unpredectable and a<BR>
> > "bad thing".<BR>
> and<BR>
> >You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of<BR>
destructive<BR>
> potential of its own.<BR>
><BR>
> Conceeded. But as a last resort....<BR>
><BR>
> You'd have rubble, but it would be an expanding cloud of rubble, so more<BR>
> rock would miss the planet than if the asteroid impacted. And that which<BR>
hit<BR>
> would be in smaller chunks, so more likely to burn up in the atmosphere,<BR>
> right? Okay, maybe this is more of a last resort tactic.<BR>
><BR>
> Nick<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:28:06 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO<BR>
<BR>
>A completely dead character is dead<BR>
<BR>
Miracle Max: He probably owes 	you money, huh.  Well, I'll ask him.<BR>
Inigo:	He's dead.  He can't talk.<BR>
Max:  Ooooohhh!   Look who knows so much, eh!  It just so happens that your<BR>
	friend here is only mostly dead.  There's a big difference between<BR>
	mostly dead and all dead.  Please open his mouth.  Now, mostly dead is<BR>
slightly alive.  Now, all dead...well, with<BR>
	all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do.<BR>
Inigo:  What's that?<BR>
Max:  Go through his clothes and look for loose change.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:35:54 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Moving a rock - with maths<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
> > Subject: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
Just to add my take on the maths, since we've had a variety of numbers...<BR>
working in SI like the good li'l engineer I am...<BR>
26000 x 30000 x 15000 = 11.7e12 cubic metres of rock<BR>
<BR>
Assuming 3000 kg per meter cubed, that's<BR>
117e12 x 3000 = 35.1e15 kg of rock<BR>
<BR>
We've got, say nine months, which is 23.3e6 seconds,<BR>
<BR>
and we want to alter its position as it passes the planet by 20,000 km (to<BR>
steal from somebody else's figures)<BR>
<BR>
s = u t + 1/2 a t^2<BR>
<BR>
where s = displacement (20,000 km or 20e6 m)<BR>
u = initial transverse velocity (0 m/s)<BR>
t  = time elapsed (23.3e6 seconds)<BR>
a = required acceleration (in metres per second squared)<BR>
<BR>
since u=0 this simplifies to<BR>
<BR>
s = 1/2 a t^2<BR>
<BR>
or a = 2 s / t^2<BR>
<BR>
So the required acceleration = ( 2 x 20e6 ) / (23.3e6 ^2 )<BR>
which by my reckoning is = 73.5 e-9 metres per second squared,<BR>
or about one hundred millionth of a gravity<BR>
<BR>
Since force = mass x acceleration<BR>
the required force = 73.5e-9 x 35.1e15<BR>
or something like = 2.57e9 newton<BR>
<BR>
2.57 Meganewton can be generated by a HEPlaR drive consuming 10 megawatts of<BR>
power (although fuel consumption would be a problem.)<BR>
or by a Thruster Plate consuming 5 megawatts and no fuel<BR>
<BR>
Either way, that's a 1G drive for a ship massing about 250 tonnes. By my<BR>
numbers, a modular cutter could do that, assuming it had enough power fuel<BR>
to run continuously for nine months. And didn't need maintenance...<BR>
<BR>
I thankyou, anyone who bothered reading this far.<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:45:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock - with maths<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
<BR>
Almost right.  One error at the end:<BR>
> or something like = 2.57e9 newton<BR>
> <BR>
> 2.57 Meganewton can be generated by a HEPlaR drive consuming 10 megawatts<BR>
> of power (although fuel consumption would be a problem.)<BR>
> or by a Thruster Plate consuming 5 megawatts and no fuel<BR>
<BR>
Unfortunately, that's 2.57 giganewtons, or 250,000 tons.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:51:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: Re: X-Men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
> You don't _discuss_ scotch, you savour it !<BR>
> <BR>
> Frankie<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
So right<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
Pat Connaughton <BR>
ICQ # 2535086<BR>
pconn@i1.net<BR>
"He who knows not how to dissemble knows not<BR>
how to reign"<BR>
Tiberius, Emperator and Princips of Rome<BR>
<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 15:34:17 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>Do I smell smoke?  Yes, that's definitely smoke.  <sniff,<BR>
>sniff>  Smoke from aviation fuel, I believe.  Yes, aviation<BR>
>fuel and possibly napalm.  <sniff>  Maybe a sprinkling of<BR>
>white phosphorus, but primarily aviation fuel and napalm,<BR>
>most definitely.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Glen, get away from the Bar-B-Q.  You are NOT getting what I use to cook<BR>
the ribs.  *weg*<BR>
    Actually, I kinda liked the setting, with some tweaks it was workable.<BR>
I removed Virus completely & had the destruction due to the rebellion/civil<BR>
war itself.<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:14:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: X-men in Traveller<BR>
<BR>
	I've never used super-heroes in Traveller, but I _have_ used a<BR>
Traveller character in Villains and Vigilantes.  He was an Imperial Marine<BR>
who had been flung through space-time by a mis-jump and ended up on an<BR>
alternate (for him) 20th century earth.  With his battledress, grav belt,<BR>
and plasma rifle, he was quite the slugo :-).  His name was Blood-Sky,<BR>
although I can't really remember why...<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On 15 Jul 00, at 9:31, Katharine Whitchurch wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> BTW, while I'm here, does anyone know enough about ballistics to either<BR>
> explain or justify effective body armour at TL9-12 ?<BR>
<BR>
Nope, but I suspect it's an artifact of dropping FSS1/TNE's penetration <BR>
stat for smallarms.<BR>
<BR>
> My problem is that it seems remarkably simple to build weapons that punch<BR>
> huge amounts of body armour.<BR>
<BR>
The answer is, of course, to go back to FFS1 :)<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Races and Recoil Tolerance<BR>
<BR>
On 18 Jul 00, at 12:11, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> There are a large variety of .50BMG rifles that people are shooting.<BR>
> They're heavy, true, but most have a recoil similar to a shotgun.  That<BR>
> propelling a 43-47g bullet at over 900 m/s.  So energy = 0.5*0.047*<BR>
> (915^2)That comes out to 19,675 Joules.  Assuming an ideal barrel, T4<BR>
> damage is SQRT(19675)/10.5 or 13D.  Wow! Hey a TL7 portable weapon that<BR>
> can kill battle dress and weighs in at about 12 kg.<BR>
<BR>
This is a big factor in various operations in TNE's Reformation <BR>
Coalition, especially with the wide spread introduction of 14.5mm <BR>
Crunchguns.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Jul 00, at 14:21, Legate Legion wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>     Well, it as fiction, so the French could get off their butts & maybe<BR>
> colonize one system, but not become the dominant power on the Earth.  I am<BR>
> sorry, but that will still be either the US, UK, or the US/UK.  It is a<BR>
> given.<BR>
>     Also considering that 2300 AD is set 300 years, IIRC, after Twilight<BR>
> 2000, France would too messed up to become a world power.<BR>
<BR>
How come the French would be too messed up to be on top, but not the US <BR>
or UK? And how come the French are just incapable of being on top? They <BR>
ran a fairly good race with the British over the last few centuries, <BR>
after all.<BR>
  <BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Jul 00, at 19:34, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> The cold war between Britain and France has been going on<BR>
> for _hundreds_ of years.  Remember that they fought a war<BR>
> called the Hundred Years War just six hundred years ago. <BR>
> Some of them are probably still nursing old wounds over it.<BR>
>  During the Falklands War, the Argentines were primarily<BR>
> armed with French weapons.  <BR>
<BR>
So was the RN :) Actually the armies on both sides used Belgain <BR>
designed rifles and the British were using EU ATGMs. I'm begining to <BR>
think Brussels doesn't just rule Europe.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On 16 Jul 00, at 11:57, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> One of my own thoughts was for a 20-25mm grenade launcher capable of<BR>
> firing either a time-fused HE round or a canister load of SCMITR<BR>
> flechettes.  Have it fire from an open bolt, with dual magazines.  A smart<BR>
> range-finding sight selects either flechette or HE based on range<BR>
> (flechette for 150m or less, with a user over-ride).  Get rid of the<BR>
> conventional rifle all together.<BR>
<BR>
Or keep a few for dealing with those nasty people in armour that'll <BR>
stop frag/SCMITR (I bet if were to become standard issue somebody'd <BR>
make body armour to stop it, and I suspect that those exotic French <BR>
bullets would still penetrate it).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:14:57 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller attack and James Maliszewski<BR>
<BR>
On 17 Jul 00, at 16:31, Douglas E. Berry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:08 PM 7/17/2000 +0100, you wrote:<BR>
> >Have you ever tried using the Doctor Who (FASA) rules.<BR>
> >They were amongst the worst ever written. To run the<BR>
> >games I used to port over CoC mechanics which worked<BR>
> >well.<BR>
> <BR>
> I tend to port things either to GURPS or CORPS, depending on how much work<BR>
> I'm interested in doing. -- <BR>
<BR>
At the moment I'm trying to decide whether my next SF game will be <BR>
2300AD ported to GURPS, or whether to port it to CORPS (however to do <BR>
that I'll have to actually buy the rules, etc).<BR>
<BR>
BTW I got hold of ACQ in the weekend. I've only had one read through, <BR>
but it looks really cool. Maybe cool enough that I'll try porting <BR>
2300Ad to it instead (as it's how combat works in 2300AD that I don't <BR>
like, anyway).<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:15:40 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: The New Era<BR>
<BR>
At 11:06 -0400 19/7/00, Gregory Carl Kettler <BR>
<gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:<BR>
> > When people reacted against TNE, was it all due to the change of to T2K<BR>
> > style rules? That was my reason for avoiding it. What was the reaction to<BR>
> > the background? How did you each feel?<BR>
>TNE was my first exposure to Traveller (yes, I'm a young one), and I'm<BR>
>still trying to figure out why so many people hate it.  Hopefully, this<BR>
>thread will be enlightening.<BR>
<BR>
Reasons I don't like TNE very much:<BR>
<BR>
5) Autofire / Combat rules<BR>
4) General System.<BR>
3) Autofire<BR>
2) Virus - feels implausible and destroys everything that went before.<BR>
2b) Autofire. Did I mention this?<BR>
1) HePLAR and other technological abominations that destroyed previous works.<BR>
<BR>
Tongue in Cheek -<BR>
D20<BR>
<BR>
2300 did the low tech setting better.<BR>
<BR>
The Regency is Classic Traveller with a ruleset I find worse than MT <BR>
and T4 grafted on.<BR>
<BR>
Why I like TNE:<BR>
<BR>
1) FFS<BR>
2) Audacity of Virus (although I prefered Hard Times)<BR>
3) Battle Rider<BR>
<BR>
Your Kilometerage will vary....<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:35:50 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
Anthony Jackson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
> > > Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might<BR>
> > be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Alright, physicists. I know I'm only an engineer, so my grasp of physical<BR>
> > laws is limited to "pour lots of concrete on it and it won't move", but how<BR>
> > exactly does a nuclear explosion shift a mass like that in space?<BR>
><BR>
> It vaporizes chunks of the rock, which act as a pulse rocket.  This isn't terribly efficient.<BR>
<BR>
1. Get a large mirror...mylar coated with a very thin layer of aluminium...<BR>
2. Put it in the same orbit as the rock...<BR>
3. Focus sunlight down to a point on the side of the rock...<BR>
4. Vapourization of material will act as a reaction jet changing the orbit of the rock...<BR>
5. Repeat steps 1 to 3 as necessary<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2788<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2789</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 20 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2789<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Landgrab - Conway 2735 - Trin's Veil(OT)<BR>
Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock..<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Other way around?<BR>
Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:40:36 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Landgrab - Conway 2735 - Trin's Veil(OT)<BR>
<BR>
I know this is off topic but I couldn't resist....<BR>
<BR>
Julius Waller wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Unless someone objects I wouldnt mind having a go at Conway.<BR>
><BR>
> Julius<BR>
<BR>
I'm sure *he* would object...unless he goes for that sort of thing...<BR>
<BR>
(anyone else watch 'The Bill'? no? oh well....)<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:38:58 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
I wrote:<BR>
> Well, as you don't specify the density, I've gone with a very<BR>
> pessimistic value of 10.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, you can halve the figures below for an Iron asteroid (~5), or<BR>
third them for a rocky one (~3).<BR>
<BR>
> At this density the rock weighs 11,700,000,000,000 tons.<BR>
<BR>
Ooops. Didn't actually apply the density. Multiply that figure by ten<BR>
thousand to get Kg's<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> 6 months (say 183 days) is 15811200 seconds.<BR>
><BR>
> Lets say the planet has a diameter of 15000km. We need to shift the<BR>
> asteroid by up to 1 radius, plus the atmosphere depth, plus a bit of a<BR>
> safety margin. Lets go for a shift of 100,000km.<BR>
><BR>
> Now F=ma, and a=2*shift/time^2.<BR>
><BR>
> Plugging the figures in gives a constant force of 9,360,222.944 Newtons<BR>
> for 6 months.<BR>
<BR>
Make that 93.6 GigaNewtons<BR>
<BR>
> Now assuming that starships mass about 15 times their displacement<BR>
> tonnage, a manoeuvre drive that can shift a 10601.68 dton ship at 6g<BR>
> will be producing 9,360,222.944 Newtons.<BR>
<BR>
Make that ~106,000dtons and 93.6 GigaNewtons<BR>
<BR>
> Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
> result.<BR>
<BR>
... 3180<BR>
<BR>
> If they have a year then the acceleration required is quartered,<BR>
> but must be applied for twice as long. 80 scout ship engines would now<BR>
> suffice<BR>
<BR>
and finally... 795<BR>
<BR>
Note that a single Tigress could pull this thing almost 500,000km off course<BR>
in six months or, if it were only a rocky asteroid [density 3], pull it the<BR>
20,000km others have bandied about in as little as three weeks!<BR>
<BR>
> Have fun!<BR>
><BR>
> Matt<BR>
<BR>
Doh!<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:40:57 -0700<BR>
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Or keep a few for dealing with those nasty people in armour that'll<BR>
> stop frag/SCMITR (I bet if were to become standard issue somebody'd<BR>
> make body armour to stop it, and I suspect that those exotic French<BR>
> bullets would still penetrate it).<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
That's why the HE.  I actually envisioned a combined HE/HEAP round like the<BR>
US HEDP M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade.  Fragmentation sleeve and shaped<BR>
charge.  Those clever Americans...<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:55:38 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:43 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
> > Subject: Moving a rock...<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Howdy!<BR>
> ><BR>
> > In a current game the players are faced by a serious problem that<BR>
> threatens<BR>
> > to flatten them in a few months.  Namely, a very large asteroid is<BR>
heading<BR>
> > towards the planet they are on.  Here's my problem:<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12<BR>
months<BR>
> > or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What<BR>
> > level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the<BR>
> planet?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Thanks in advance!<BR>
><BR>
> Sounds like a job for a Lab Ship.<BR>
><BR>
> You are going to need to apply petanewtons onto that baby.<BR>
><BR>
> Assuming that the rock is as dense as water, it has a mass of ummm<BR>
> 30*26*15*10^27 kilos, or roughly 3*10^27 tons.<BR>
<BR>
Nope. Thats the mass of a large terrestrial planet...<BR>
<BR>
You are about a 10^15 times out.<BR>
<BR>
Of course it could be a Neutron Star or Black Hole on a collision course...<BR>
<g><BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:07:45 -0500<BR>
From: "Snorkey" <snorkey@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock..<BR>
<BR>
> Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
> <BR>
> Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
> <BR>
> Back in 1997, when all of that nonsense about the Earth being In The Way of<BR>
> an Asteroid was being bandied about, I thought it would be an interesting<BR>
> excercise to alter the asteroid's trajectory until it would fall into a<BR>
> useful orbit around the Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for a<BR>
> fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much "Raw<BR>
> Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
<BR>
While watching an Program on Earth Killer Asteroids and Comet on Discovery<BR>
Science I came up with a hitch to this idea: In earth orbit, without<BR>
occasional corrections the Rock's orbit would become more and more<BR>
elliptical, eventually the low point would intersect with something<BR>
important (Earth for example). This effect would be caused by tidal<BR>
interactions of the Moon and Sun as the rock orbits earth. I would tend to<BR>
think that it would take a long time for this to happen but I do think that<BR>
it would happen eventually.<BR>
<BR>
And for some people any risk, no matter how distant in time it might be, is<BR>
too much risk.<BR>
<BR>
Just a thought, I like the idea too.<BR>
<BR>
Snork<BR>
- --<BR>
Snorkey: We had some problems with No Orbital Asteroid League (NOAL) until<BR>
we Rocked their headquarters; Now it's on to the People for Lunar Landscape<BR>
Preservation (PLLP).<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:15:38 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> US HEDP M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade.  Fragmentation sleeve and shaped<BR>
> charge.  Those clever Americans...<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, we're good at blowing stuff up!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:25:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Other way around?<BR>
<BR>
> >Didn't those former Eastern Block countries ask to be part<BR>
> >of NATO, rather than NATO asking them to join?<BR>
><BR>
That is more or less true. I didn't claim that they FORCED there way in or<BR>
made it a point, but just that they were aggressively expanding into the<BR>
area and that was foolish even if the intentions were actually good. Loans<BR>
can be dispensed many ways. I didn't actually fear war as a result of this<BR>
but a breakdown in trust and co-operation.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:21:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic TLs to GT TLs<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Realize that the TL conversion chart on p. GT107 is seriously flawed,<BR>
> especially at the lower TLs. Both GURPS and Traveller give historical<BR>
> analogs for their tech levels by date, so there should be no problem<BR>
> converting, but the chart doesn't reflect this. Here is my first-order<BR>
> approximation (and the one I submitted as an erratum, long ago):<BR>
><BR>
> Traveller               GURPS<BR>
> 0 (stone age)           0 (stone age)<BR>
> 1 (medieval age)        1 (bronze age)<BR>
> 1                       2 (iron age)<BR>
> 1                       3 (<1450)<BR>
> 2 (1600)                4 (1450-1700)<BR>
> 3 (1800)                5 (1701-1900)<BR>
> 4 (1900)                6 (1901-1950)<BR>
> 5 (1930)                6<BR>
> 6 (1950)                7 (1951-2000)<BR>
> 7 (1970)                7<BR>
> 8 (1990)                7<BR>
> 9 (2010)                8 (2001-2050?)<BR>
><BR>
> There are still problems with this (steam engines are TTL4, for example),<BR>
> but to do any better I'd have to compare specific technologies across the<BR>
> board.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the charts I'm looking at (The Traveller Book, and a xerox<BR>
from Second Survey) go like this:<BR>
<BR>
TL      description<BR>
- ------  ------------------------  -------------------------<BR>
0       Stone Age. Primitive.<BR>
1       Bronze, Iron              Bronze Age to Middle Ages<BR>
2                                 circa 1400 to 1700<BR>
3                                 circa 1700 to 1860<BR>
4       External Combustion       circa 1860 to 1900<BR>
5       Mass Production           circa 1900 to 1939<BR>
6                                 circa 1940 to 1969<BR>
7       Miniaturized Electronics  circa 1970 to 1979           <BR>
8                                 circa 1980 to 1989<BR>
9                                 circa 1900 to 2000<BR>
A(10)   Interstellar community.<BR>
B(11)   Lower Average Imperial.<BR>
C(12)   Average Imperial.<BR>
D(13)   Above Average Imperial.<BR>
E(14)   Above Average Imperial.<BR>
F(15)   Technical Imperial Maximum.<BR>
G(16)   Occasional Imperial<BR>
H(17)<BR>
J(18)<BR>
K(19)<BR>
L(20)   Comprehensible only as technological magic<BR>
<BR>
Note that the omission of "I" is deliberate, not a mistake.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:29:56 +1200<BR>
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
On 19 Jul 00, at 16:40, Tod Glenn wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Or keep a few for dealing with those nasty people in armour that'll stop<BR>
> > frag/SCMITR (I bet if were to become standard issue somebody'd make body<BR>
> > armour to stop it, and I suspect that those exotic French bullets would<BR>
> > still penetrate it).<BR>
> ><BR>
> <BR>
> That's why the HE.  I actually envisioned a combined HE/HEAP round like<BR>
> the US HEDP M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade.  Fragmentation sleeve and<BR>
> shaped charge.  Those clever Americans...<BR>
<BR>
Ah, I thought you were using the HE for area effects, rather than for <BR>
anti BD work.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
<BR>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:34:09 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
On 07/19/00 at 01:51 PM,  Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>Nick Bradbeer writes:<BR>
<BR>
>> But not, I'd imagine, very fast. I guess you'd be better trying to bury a<BR>
>> bomb to split a chunk off. You'd get a nice explosive effect from<BR>
>> superheated rock to push the chunks apart, and the reaction would give a<BR>
>> hefty thrust to both parts. Repeat until desired result achieved.<BR>
<BR>
>You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of<BR>
>destructive potential of its own.<BR>
<BR>
How about a different idea?<BR>
<BR>
Put a series of solar powered (or fusion if you have it) mass<BR>
drivers on the asteroid.  Use the rock itself as reaction mass to<BR>
change its vector.  I'd think you would want to accelerate the<BR>
asteroid inward toward the sun, so the ejecta would be travelling<BR>
away from the mainworld. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:42:47 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
On 07/19/00 at 11:04 PM,  "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of destructive<BR>
>potential of its own.<BR>
<BR>
>Conceeded. But as a last resort....<BR>
<BR>
>You'd have rubble, but it would be an expanding cloud of rubble, so more<BR>
>rock would miss the planet than if the asteroid impacted. And that which<BR>
>hit would be in smaller chunks, so more likely to burn up in the<BR>
>atmosphere, right? Okay, maybe this is more of a last resort tactic.<BR>
<BR>
Right, and a bad idea.  If the thing is going to hit, you *don't* want to dump all of that energy into your atmosphere. Even having a big rock punch out a new gulf is better for you, long run, than igniting your entire atmosphere. At least, that's the opinion I've heard stated by those that know more about such things than I.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH, you are right that if it hits you'd like there to be a lot less of it. One idea I've seen is that you want to take a multiple approach, push the whole rock and at the same time carve off large chunks to toss away, whittling the central core down and making the push more and more effective. The problem would be *doing* it.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:40:34 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
<BR>
> snip<BR>
<BR>
> This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for a<BR>
> fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much "Raw<BR>
> Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
<BR>
Not to be smart about it.  But would something the size of Earth's moon do for<BR>
now?<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:53:55 -0500<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
Point taken, but I was thinking more along the lines of a lower orbit...like<BR>
1000 miles rather than 200,000.<BR>
<BR>
Think of what the ISS could be (With the same budget) if it were built<BR>
on/in/around a captured asteriod rather than having to put every last nut,<BR>
bolt and screw into orbit.<BR>
<BR>
Also, any ice trapped in the asteriod would also be worth it's weight in<BR>
gold.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "michael stasica" <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 9:40 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> "Matthew W. Helton" wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> > Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
><BR>
> > snip<BR>
><BR>
> > This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for<BR>
a<BR>
> > fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much<BR>
"Raw<BR>
> > Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
><BR>
> Not to be smart about it.  But would something the size of Earth's moon do<BR>
for<BR>
> now?<BR>
><BR>
> Michael<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:07:58 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Friday at Caribbean Zone<BR>
<BR>
On 07/19/00 at 02:59 PM,  Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
>That should've gone to Traveller in SF list -- sorry about<BR>
>the waste.<BR>
<BR>
It's not a waste of bandwidth to let the entire TML in on some of the goings on of the San Francisco contingent. <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:23:02 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: FFS2 weirdness<BR>
<BR>
on 7/19/00 6:29 PM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:<BR>
>> That's why the HE.  I actually envisioned a combined HE/HEAP round like<BR>
>> the US HEDP M433 dual purpose 40mm grenade.  Fragmentation sleeve and<BR>
>> shaped charge.  Those clever Americans...<BR>
> <BR>
> Ah, I thought you were using the HE for area effects, rather than for<BR>
> anti BD work.<BR>
> <BR>
> --<BR>
<BR>
Both area an anti-BD.  Yeah, it's a compromise, I know.  But we're going to<BR>
put one in the hands of every man-jack.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:46:38 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
I'd just say disregard the ramblings Marc.  your open attitude towards your<BR>
customers and sharing of out of print materials more than makes up for any<BR>
bindary woes and I for one feel Traveller is lucky *YOU* are in charge.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks Marc!<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 Washington - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <CardSharks@aol.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 7:31 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Reprints Book 2 Arrives!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> The standard answer for mis bindings is:<BR>
><BR>
> We had the bindery worker fired, and a reprimand was placed in the file of<BR>
> his supervisor. Is that enough, or should we brand the cheeks of the<BR>
> supervisor as well.<BR>
><BR>
> For binding errors, we say, tell us and we'll replace the bad copy. We<BR>
don't<BR>
> want anyone to get a bad feeling for the product they paid good money for.<BR>
><BR>
> And thanks to those who ordered; they were sent out the same day they<BR>
arrived<BR>
> from the printer.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Marc<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:32:25 -0500<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
<BR>
Date sent:      	Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:42:07 -0700<BR>
Subject:        	Re: Declining societies (still long)<BR>
From:           	Justice Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com><BR>
To:             	<traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Send reply to:  	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
Justice writes<BR>
<BR>
big time snip<BR>
> <BR>
> It's really very simple. Currency for utility. It would open up massive new<BR>
> markets for our companies and working population, allow the proliferation<BR>
> and expansion of civil rights and democracy, and make the whole place more<BR>
> secure. If it is in everyone's best interest to cooperate, then war becomes<BR>
> less and less a viable choice. It is a non zero sum game.<BR>
> <BR>
Though you make alot of sense in your argunment against the <BR>
orginall statenment, that is not wrong in its facts just out of date, <BR>
you argunment has its own problems.<BR>
<BR>
Some imporatnts points need to be made.  First though the gas <BR>
industry for cars is a major companonet of oil usage its not the <BR>
only one.  A large portion goes into entergy generation.  Another <BR>
part goes into the platics.  This means that even if we get better <BR>
cars we will still need the black gold to funcation.<BR>
<BR>
Second, Though there will be great oppertunties for us to export <BR>
goods into China and India two problems will dampan the returns.  <BR>
China and India (as well as others) constently demand that <BR>
companies open joint manufacturing planets in countary.  These <BR>
are often in favor of the host nation.  This means that your <BR>
microwave company will beforce to give up market share to internal <BR>
producation losing opertunities, while the host company and nation <BR>
get hard currency and industrial complexs for half the cost.  <BR>
<BR>
Next, although economic and political liberalism is a long standing <BR>
tradtion in the Westit lacks credit in other cultures.  This means <BR>
that US money might not buy the peace you are hoping for.  Even <BR>
now nations such as Russia, and China as well as the Middle East <BR>
might be taking the money but they are still by their nature <BR>
extermly unliberal.  All have carrieded  on in undemocratic ways <BR>
against their populations with crack downs on their own poluations <BR>
in the last year alone.<BR>
<BR>
What this means is that America must not dependent so much on <BR>
this policy of dollar diplomacy.  It can fail and lead to severer <BR>
resentment around the world.  Only a policy that uses all the tools <BR>
at our disposal is a good policy.  <BR>
<BR>
Please keep an eye on stratfor.com  <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tim Reynolds<BR>
tim@premier.net <BR>
225-334-5063<BR>
www.premier.net/~tim<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Knowledge, information, power, words...Flying through<BR>
the air, invisible<BR>
And suddenly the world was tap dancing on quicksand.<BR>
In that case, the prize went to the best dancer<BR>
Terry Pratchett: The Fifth Elephant <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:46:53 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
I have this book and it's one of my favorites.  too bad poor "green" got<BR>
corrupted.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 12:33 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Military Psychology (was RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Smith, Walter wrote:<BR>
> > To this, add the availbility of Low Berths...sleeping soldiers don't<BR>
> > have to be fed or cleaned up after, don't have to be entertained,<BR>
> > don't fight, don't take up near as much space.  Take this to the<BR>
> > extreme, and you have soldiers who spend their entire military career<BR>
> > (after initial training) Fighting or Healing from Wounds.  No time to<BR>
> > process and cope with the last campaign before waking up to start<BR>
> > the next one, no down time at all.  Psychological treatments must be<BR>
> > very advanced indeed, but you may not want to be in the same room as<BR>
> > the "people" the psychologists create to survive under these<BR>
> > conditions.<BR>
><BR>
> There's a novel that covers this territory entitled<BR>
> "The Eternity Brigade," by Stephen Goldin (in the novel,<BR>
> however, the technology of "storing people" eventually<BR>
> evolves far beyond cryogenic suspension, and into matter<BR>
> duplication).<BR>
>                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:50:13 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
<BR>
This is a question about T4 rule mechanics.  No cool gun stuff.<BR>
<BR>
I've been evaluating the T4 combat rules with the view of replacing the CT<BR>
systems with something a little better.  I have a couple of questions about<BR>
T4 combat resolution (I'm trying to void reading tons of rules).<BR>
<BR>
How does to hit resolution work in T4.  How does one determine the required<BR>
rolls to obtain a hit with, say, a rifle at short, medium or long range?<BR>
<BR>
I'm used to CT where these things are spelled out.  If I generate a weapon<BR>
using FFS2, how do I determine the DMs? Damage was easy.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:04:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote<BR>
>> Subject: Re:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> > than 52 parsecs or so. This however does not fit with BG's<BR>
>> > references to traveling between galaxies (A notion that I find to<BR>
>> > be utter felgercarb but that's another issue entirely).<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Ah, yes...  That fun little bit...<BR>
><BR>
> I would suggest explaining it away by stating that, according<BR>
> to Colonial astronomers, galactic clusters are separate galaxies<BR>
> since they have a common center of rotation. Whenever you hear <BR>
> 'galaxy' replace it with 'galactic cluster'.<BR>
<BR>
Slight problem. "galactic cluster" refers to clusters of *galaxies*.<BR>
<BR>
I think you mean "steallar cluster" or "globular cluster" (though<BR>
globular clusters aren't likely to be inhabitable).<BR>
 <BR>
>> I was never to sure if they were in the same Solar system or not....  It's<BR>
>> almost as if the Galactica was near the Core, and in a very complex mess of<BR>
>> Suns orbiting Suns, with planets orbiting planets.  I wouldn't even want to<BR>
>> think about what a mess that would create...<BR>
><BR>
> No. BSG canon establishes that the colonies are in one system.<BR>
> The voice over from the premiere two parter states that after<BR>
> the Cylons destroyed the Colonies "And The Word Went Forth To<BR>
> Every Outpost Of Human Existence. [1] And They Came. The Aeries,<BR>
> The Gemens, The Virgos, The Scorpios... The Picons And The<BR>
> Sagitarians. In All Two Hundred And Twenty Ships Representing<BR>
> Every Colony, Color And Creed In _The_ Star System." [BSG The<BR>
> Photostory p 54]. _The is singular hence the colonies are in<BR>
> one star system. This conclusion is also supported by the fact<BR>
> that the Galactica returned to "the colonies" not to "a Colony"<BR>
> hence the Colonies must be close together.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, but "star system" can easily refer to a stellar cluster,<BR>
especially a close grouping of stars. <BR>
<BR>
The series got *so* much astronomical stuff *horribly* wrong that<BR>
throwing away *any* bit of it really isn't a big deal. Especially if<BR>
doing so makes things make more sense.<BR>
<BR>
BTW, if it is going to exist at all, the "lightless void" has to be a<BR>
dark nebula. The *only* other thing that would produce similar effects<BR>
would be one of the huge voids found between galactic superclusters.<BR>
And crossing one of *those* is just way out of line (*billion* parsec<BR>
distances... :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2789<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2790</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 20 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2790<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Powerful Characters (WAS TNE)<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock..<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Capital Ship Design 950kt Displacement<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: BSG Questions  <BR>
Re: Powerful Characters (WAS TNE)<BR>
Re: K'kree battledress<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:57:10 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
That is just plain crazy.  I know many adults who aren't "with it" enough to<BR>
be getting married.  I doubt ANY 12 year old girl in the USA has enough<BR>
wisdom/smarts to be even thinking of marriage let alone trying it.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:31 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> At 04:14 PM 7/17/2000 PST, you wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >Heck, until recently, the age of consent in a few parts of the US was<BR>
> >as low as 13.<BR>
><BR>
> In the Great State of Massachusetts, the allowable age for marriage, with<BR>
> parental consent is 14 for boys, *12* for girls.  Mississippi allows 15<BR>
> year old girls to marry without parental consent.<BR>
><BR>
> Oddly, Puerto Rico sets the age of marriage at 21.<BR>
> --<BR>
><BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:19:40 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
<BR>
On 07/19/00 at 09:50 PM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>This is a question about T4 rule mechanics.  No cool gun stuff.<BR>
<BR>
>I've been evaluating the T4 combat rules with the view of replacing the<BR>
>CT systems with something a little better.  I have a couple of questions<BR>
>about T4 combat resolution (I'm trying to void reading tons of rules).<BR>
<BR>
>How does to hit resolution work in T4.  How does one determine the<BR>
>required rolls to obtain a hit with, say, a rifle at short, medium or<BR>
>long range?<BR>
<BR>
T4 has fixed ranges and *every* weapon has the same base chance of<BR>
success at each of the ranges.  However, each weapon has a modifier<BR>
that adds to this base chance of success based on how well it<BR>
handles longer ranges.  Interestingly, this modifier only applies to<BR>
aimed fire, all snapshots by all weapons have an equal chance of<BR>
hitting at each range.<BR>
<BR>
Range   Range<BR>
Number  Description    Distance    Task          T4     T4.1<BR>
  0     Contact       0 -    3 m   Easy         1.5d    1d<BR>
  1     V.Short       4 -   15 m   Average      2d      2d<BR>
  2     Short        16 -   45 m   Difficult    2.5d    2.5d<BR>
  3     Medium       46 -  150 m   Formidable   3d      3d<BR>
  4     Long        151 -  450 m   Staggering   3.5d    4d<BR>
  5     V.Long      451 - 1500 m   Impossible   4d      5d<BR>
<BR>
Each weapon has a range number that matches the range<BR>
numbers/descriptions from the above table.  This is the weapon's<BR>
postitve DM for *aimed* fire. Example:  <BR>
<BR>
Description  Dam  TL   Range<BR>
Rifle, cR776  4   10   Medium (3)<BR>
<BR>
The rifle has a Medium rating and so it gets a +3 DM on all *aimed*<BR>
fire.  Both a rifle and a pistol have a Staggering task at Long<BR>
range and an equal chance of hitting on snap fire, but the rifle<BR>
gets a +3 DM when aimed.  Joe Generio (all 7's) and 2 with his rifle,<BR>
adds the +3 to his 7 characteristic and his 2 skill giving him a<BR>
target of 12.  Then he attempts to roll 12- if he is aiming (9- if<BR>
he isn't) on the number of dice required by the distance of the<BR>
shot.<BR>
<BR>
So, in answer to your question about Short, Medium and Long the<BR>
general answer is:<BR>
<BR>
 Short:  2.5d <= (Characteristic + Skill) + Weapon DM + Other DM's<BR>
 Medium: 3d   <= (Characteristic + Skill) + Weapon DM + Other DM's<BR>
 Long:   3.5 or <BR>
         4d <= (Characteristic + Skill) + Weapon DM + Other DM's<BR>
<BR>
>I'm used to CT where these things are spelled out.  If I generate a<BR>
>weapon using FFS2, how do I determine the DMs? Damage was easy.<BR>
<BR>
This I don't know.  I haven't built personal weapons with FFS2, just<BR>
used the ones in T4 and EA. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:34:53 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
    Doug Berry & Jesse DeGraff, I hold you two personally responsible for<BR>
what I did today.  I hope you are happy.  I bought everything for GT today,<BR>
in a fit of madness.  I did not buy the GURPs basic book, but due to Dougs<BR>
glowing review of the Alien Races 3, made me look at it.  And, I needed it<BR>
for my current CT/MT game.  And, Jesse your artwork in GT was so good, it<BR>
was worth the money I paid for them.  As well as pre-ordering GT:  Ground<BR>
Forces.<BR>
    I hope you too are very happy.<BR>
    Though, I do not plan to use the rules for GT, but the CT/MT rules I am<BR>
using, so I only bought it for the setting, nothing more nothing less.  So<BR>
it is a win-win situation.  You get my money & I get infromation.<BR>
    God have mercy on my soul.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:36:16 +0200<BR>
From: Julius Waller <julius@xs4all.nl><BR>
Subject: Powerful Characters (WAS TNE)<BR>
<BR>
Responding to John regarding characters wish to influence stellar events.<BR>
<BR>
Sorry, I did not formulate myself clearly enough. What I meant to say was<BR>
that given the extendive backdrop of the Traveller CT canon. Players<BR>
expect to move on this scale too. However the difference between one end<BR>
of the imperium and another was marginal at best (the absence of a wilds<BR>
frontier has been referred to). In this respect characters expect<BR>
interstellar adventure which the Imperium wasn't providing.<BR>
<BR>
If you are familiar with Sci-Fi writer Jack Vance, you may know his 5-book<BR>
series the Demon Princes. In it he describes an interstellar society of<BR>
humans inside a stable political entity (the Oikumene - something for you<BR>
greek scholars to explain) and 'the beyond' a lawless and chaotic outback<BR>
of frontier worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Julius<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:20:59 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Breaking up the rock is a bad idea, but surface nuclear explosions might<BR>
> be usable to shift the rock without breaking it up.<BR>
><BR>
> Alright, physicists. I know I'm only an engineer, so my grasp of physical<BR>
> laws is limited to "pour lots of concrete on it and it won't move", but how<BR>
> exactly does a nuclear explosion shift a mass like that in space?<BR>
><BR>
> What about conservation of momentum? Surely a nuke only gives out a lot of<BR>
> radiated energy if there's no medium to carry a shock wave. No mass gets<BR>
> pushed in the other direction, so how do we account for the change in<BR>
> momentum of the asteroid?<BR>
<BR>
A nuke releases 99+% of it's energy as soft X-rays. In an atmosphere,<BR>
these are all absorbed within 100 meters or less (mostly a lot less). <BR>
<BR>
This superheats the air and converts it to a plasmas, which creates the<BR>
shock wave *and* the heat & light pulses.<BR>
<BR>
In space, a nuke exploded near an asteroid will deliver around 40-50%<BR>
of it's energy to the top few cm of the surface nearest the blast. This<BR>
will convert part of it to plasma, which will blast the rest away. <BR>
<BR>
You actually get pretty good "coupling" of the blast energy to thrust.<BR>
I'd guess you'd get 35-45% of the blast energy converted into kinetic<BR>
energy, all of it in the "exhaust". <BR>
<BR>
> Does the heat wave vapourise the top layer of rock and boil it off or<BR>
> something? Even if it does, I can't see that shifting an asteroid very far.<BR>
<BR>
Remember, it only takes a nudge to change the course *considerably*<BR>
when you are talking about 6-12 month timescales.<BR>
<BR>
A 1 m/s velocity will add up to almost 16,000 km over a year. <BR>
<BR>
And that's ignoring the effects of gravity and orbital mechanics which<BR>
can both amplify the effects as well.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:34:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Fragmentation is generally thought to be unpredectable and a<BR>
>> "bad thing".<BR>
> and<BR>
>>You'd also get large quantities of rubble, which has plenty of destructive<BR>
> potential of its own.<BR>
><BR>
> Conceeded. But as a last resort....<BR>
><BR>
> You'd have rubble, but it would be an expanding cloud of rubble, so more<BR>
> rock would miss the planet than if the asteroid impacted.<BR>
<BR>
Don't forget, the planet will be drawing the chunks back towards it<BR>
because of its gravity well. Likely result is merely spreading the<BR>
impact area out to *more* than 50% of the planet.<BR>
<BR>
> And that which hit<BR>
> would be in smaller chunks, so more likely to burn up in the atmosphere,<BR>
> right? Okay, maybe this is more of a last resort tactic.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, having the chunks burn up in the atmosphere is *why*<BR>
fragmentation is bad. Other than quake and tidal wave, energy dumped<BR>
into the atmosphere is one of the worst effects of a larger impactor.<BR>
It's one of the reasons a sea strike is much worse than a land strike. <BR>
<BR>
Quakes are bad. So are tidal waves. But they are only a *fraction* of<BR>
the strike energy. A land strike radiates most of the energy into space<BR>
again, over the weeks it'll take the crater to cool.<BR>
<BR>
A sea strike gets cooled over *hours* as the water tries to rush back<BR>
in and gets turned into superheated steam. That steam dumps the energy<BR>
into the atmosphere, along with simply incredible amounts of dust. <BR>
<BR>
You'll get megastorms (remember, hurricanes are driven by far smaller<BR>
amounts of condensing water vapor). And the high altitude dust will<BR>
create a nuclear winter type effect (check out 1815, "The Year Without<BR>
a Summer" when a volcanic eruption thru much smaller amounts of dust<BR>
into the atmosphere).<BR>
<BR>
Now consider what happens as cubic kilometers of rock/metal hit the<BR>
upper atmosphere and vaporize. <BR>
<BR>
The light and heat flash can be enough to ignite fires on the ground<BR>
(really!), as much of the sky attains sun-like brightness levels. It'll<BR>
also massively increase evaporation of water. <BR>
<BR>
So we get extra water vapor (maybe not as bad as a sea strike), lots of<BR>
firestorms on the ground, and an opaque cloud of high altitude dust<BR>
(from the vaporized asteroid chunks)<BR>
<BR>
Again, welcome to "asteroid winter". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:55:01 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Yes, it vaporizes the surface and as the vapor escapes, it pushes<BR>
>> the object to one side....<BR>
><BR>
> But not, I'd imagine, very fast.<BR>
<BR>
Actually *quite* fast since the heating is done via *x-rays*, which<BR>
tend to be absorbed *below* the surface, leading to *explosive*<BR>
vaporization of subsurface materials, which will fling off the stuff<BR>
above them at high speed.<BR>
<BR>
> I guess you'd be better trying to bury a<BR>
> bomb to split a chunk off. You'd get a nice explosive effect from<BR>
> superheated rock to push the chunks apart, and the reaction would give a<BR>
> hefty thrust to both parts. Repeat until desired result achieved.<BR>
<BR>
See my post about why getting hit by a cloud of fragments is *worse*.<BR>
<BR>
In fact, smaller pieces deliver the im,pact energy to the planet more<BR>
efficiently. And the planet will tend to pull pieces back onto target. <BR>
<BR>
And you can't be sure *how* the body will fragment without extensive<BR>
studies involving special equipment. You don't know what sort of fault<BR>
lines may be present. <BR>
<BR>
And a lot of asteroids appear to be nothing more than loosely bound<BR>
piles of rock and gravel. A blast near one of those would be a *bad*<BR>
mistake. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:48:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
><BR>
> Back in 1997, when all of that nonsense about the Earth being In The Way of<BR>
> an Asteroid was being bandied about, I thought it would be an interesting<BR>
> excercise to alter the asteroid's trajectory until it would fall into a<BR>
> useful orbit around the Earth.<BR>
><BR>
> This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for a<BR>
> fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much "Raw<BR>
> Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that it's too easy to goof and put it into an orbit that<BR>
impacts the planet. Also, unless the orbit is way the hell out there,<BR>
it'll require unreal amounts of delta-V to change from an escape orbit<BR>
(hyperbolic or parabolic) to a reasonably circular orbit. You have to<BR>
change the velocity by around 40% of escape velocity. Say 4 km/sec for<BR>
a "near" Earth orbit. <BR>
<BR>
Making it miss (given a year of warning) requires a few *meters* per<BR>
second of velocity change. Maybe less. <BR>
<BR>
So you are talking about something that is around 5000 times harder,<BR>
merely in terms of velocity change. Since kinetic energy goes as<BR>
velocity *squared*, it's more than 25 *million* times harder in terms<BR>
of energy. <BR>
<BR>
Actually generating and applying the energy is apt to push things into<BR>
the billions of times harder level.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:27:28 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Kurt Feltenberger wrote :-<BR>
>> The data shows that it will hit the planet in the near future (6-12 months <BR>
>> or so).  It's dimensions are 30km long, 26km wide, and 15km high.  What <BR>
>> level of force will be needed to move it away from impacting on the planet?<BR>
><BR>
> The local astronomy community must be strapped for equipment to miss<BR>
> this one if the local TL is Early-Average Stellar or so. 6-12 months is<BR>
> very little warning.<BR>
<BR>
That size of body was being detected at multi-AU ranges with gear that<BR>
is now considered only suitable for amateurs...<BR>
<BR>
With currently available gear, a sky watch that'd detect that years<BR>
away would cost only a few million, and that's assuming you wanted to<BR>
complete the survey in a matter of months. <BR>
<BR>
With gear in *space*, and at higher TLs, it's cost only a few thousand.<BR>
And it'd only take a couple of months (mostly because you need the time<BR>
to allow the bodies to move far enough to get accurate orbits). The<BR>
observations would probably take a few days every couple of weeks. <BR>
<BR>
It's the sort of thing the Scout Service would have done during the<BR>
either the initial survey, or the followup visit of a survey vessel<BR>
after the initial visit by a Type-S or equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:05:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Point taken, but I was thinking more along the lines of a lower orbit...like<BR>
> 1000 miles rather than 200,000.<BR>
<BR>
1000 is at the edge of long term stable for orbits. Remember, due to<BR>
their huge surface area, they suffer worse from drag than smaller<BR>
satellites, especially over hundreds or thousands of years.<BR>
<BR>
> Also, any ice trapped in the asteriod would also be worth it's weight in<BR>
> gold.<BR>
<BR>
Except that ice isn't likely to be trapped in an asteroid. Asteroid<BR>
formation doesn't work that way. If a body is large enough to be<BR>
differentiated, or is a fragment of such a body, the nickel-iron, rock,<BR>
and ice are in seperate layers. In the life zone the ice will have<BR>
sublimed a long time ago if it's on the surface, and not shaded.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:14:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Evacuate the Planet instead (was Moving a rock)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> You are going to need to apply petanewtons onto that baby.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Assuming that the rock is as dense as water, it has a mass of ummm<BR>
>> 30*26*15*10^27 kilos, or roughly 3*10^27 tons.<BR>
><BR>
> Nope. Thats the mass of a large terrestrial planet...<BR>
<BR>
No, he said *tons* not kg. So it's about the mass of the *sun*. :-)<BR>
<BR>
> You are about a 10^15 times out.<BR>
><BR>
> Of course it could be a Neutron Star or Black Hole on a collision course...<BR>
> <g><BR>
<BR>
Just about have to be with that mass.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:05:14 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Well, as you don't specify the density, I've gone with a very<BR>
> pessimistic value of 10.<BR>
<BR>
That's *way* too pessimitic. A nickel iron body will have a density of<BR>
less than 8. Stony bodies might be as high as 3.<BR>
<BR>
> At this density the rock weighs 11,700,000,000,000 tons.<BR>
<BR>
9,360,000,000,000 at density of 8<BR>
3,510,000,000,000 at density of 3<BR>
<BR>
> 6 months (say 183 days) is 15811200 seconds.<BR>
<BR>
> Lets say the planet has a diameter of 15000km. We need to shift the<BR>
> asteroid by up to 1 radius, plus the atmosphere depth, plus a bit of a<BR>
> safety margin. Lets go for a shift of 100,000km.<BR>
><BR>
> Now F=ma, and a=2*shift/time^2.<BR>
><BR>
> Plugging the figures in gives a constant force of 9,360,222.944 Newtons<BR>
> for 6 months.<BR>
><BR>
> Now assuming that starships mass about 15 times their displacement<BR>
> tonnage, a manoeuvre drive that can shift a 10601.68 dton ship at 6g<BR>
> will be producing 9,360,222.944 Newtons.<BR>
<BR>
> Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
> result.<BR>
><BR>
> If they have a year then the acceleration required is quartered,<BR>
> but must be applied for twice as long. 80 scout ship engines would now<BR>
> suffice<BR>
<BR>
The much lower masses reduce the required thrust a lot. And figuring in<BR>
the effects of gravity (orbital mechanics) could likely reduce it even<BR>
more if you applied the thrust in the right direction (which may not be<BR>
the one you think!)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:01:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Tommy Grav writes:<BR>
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Matt Bond wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>> >Alternatively, ~320 Type-S Scout ship M-drives will produce the same<BR>
>> >result.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The problem of course is that the rock will most likely be rotating, so<BR>
>> the drives will only be able to work for part of the time :-)<BR>
>> Comets and asteroids typicaly have a rotation period of hours or days.<BR>
><BR>
> Not actually a big problem, it doesn't take long to move a ship.<BR>
<BR>
It does when it need to be braced against the asteroid in a manner that<BR>
won't damage it or the asteroid.<BR>
<BR>
> There's a decent chance that the whole process of moving the rock<BR>
> will stop the rotation anyway.<BR>
<BR>
Not hardly. the rotational energy of a body that size is *huge*. I<BR>
recall a calculation showing that it'd take *months* to stop the<BR>
rotation of an asteroid only a few km across, using million pound<BR>
thrust engines.<BR>
<BR>
Anybody want to post a formula for rotational energy of a sphere<BR>
(assume uniform density) for various radii, and rotation rates?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:01:27 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock..<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Why not do something useful with it?<BR>
>> <BR>
>> Back in 1997, when all of that nonsense about the Earth being In The Way of<BR>
>> an Asteroid was being bandied about, I thought it would be an interesting<BR>
>> excercise to alter the asteroid's trajectory until it would fall into a<BR>
>> useful orbit around the Earth.<BR>
>><BR>
>> This would be no mean feat, but it WOULD give a tremendous "leg up" for a<BR>
>> fledgling spacefaring planet to get "Out" into to space with so much "Raw<BR>
>> Material" in a convenient orbit around your planet.<BR>
><BR>
> While watching an Program on Earth Killer Asteroids and Comet on Discovery<BR>
> Science I came up with a hitch to this idea: In earth orbit, without<BR>
> occasional corrections the Rock's orbit would become more and more<BR>
> elliptical, eventually the low point would intersect with something<BR>
> important (Earth for example). This effect would be caused by tidal<BR>
> interactions of the Moon and Sun as the rock orbits earth. I would tend to<BR>
> think that it would take a long time for this to happen but I do think that<BR>
> it would happen eventually.<BR>
<BR>
Not if you parked it at L4 or L5. L1, L2 & L3 would be safe as long as<BR>
you could do "course corrections occasionally.<BR>
<BR>
The problem is that *getting* the asteroid there is incredibly hard.<BR>
See my other post for details on just *how* hard.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:19:10 -0400<BR>
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 10:04 PM 07/19/2000 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
> > No. BSG canon establishes that the colonies are in one system.<BR>
> > The voice over from the premiere two parter states that after<BR>
> > the Cylons destroyed the Colonies "And The Word Went Forth To<BR>
> > Every Outpost Of Human Existence. [1] And They Came. The Aeries,<BR>
> > The Gemens, The Virgos, The Scorpios... The Picons And The<BR>
> > Sagitarians. In All Two Hundred And Twenty Ships Representing<BR>
> > Every Colony, Color And Creed In _The_ Star System." [BSG The<BR>
> > Photostory p 54]. _The is singular hence the colonies are in<BR>
> > one star system. This conclusion is also supported by the fact<BR>
> > that the Galactica returned to "the colonies" not to "a Colony"<BR>
> > hence the Colonies must be close together.<BR>
><BR>
>Yes, but "star system" can easily refer to a stellar cluster,<BR>
>especially a close grouping of stars.<BR>
><BR>
>The series got *so* much astronomical stuff *horribly* wrong that<BR>
>throwing away *any* bit of it really isn't a big deal. Especially if<BR>
>doing so makes things make more sense.<BR>
<BR>
One of the sites I've found mentions that the Colonial home system had <BR>
three stars.  Depending on how the orbits developed, this might provide the <BR>
necessary life zones.  IIRC, some of the colonies had some pretty nasty <BR>
conditions.<BR>
<BR>
Kurt Feltenberger<BR>
<BR>
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,<BR>
    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"<BR>
      ~Stephen Decatur<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:48:48 +1000<BR>
From: "Mark Laiho" <mclaih@yesresources.com><BR>
Subject: Capital Ship Design 950kt Displacement<BR>
<BR>
I would like some feedback if possible about design errors, improvements or<BR>
suggestions. (Any feedback)<BR>
<BR>
Text file(18kB) includes rules used, erratta references, a mixed set of<BR>
TNE/T4 stats and other bits and pieces, but doesn't include any information<BR>
on the sub craft included in the design.<BR>
<BR>
The full Excel 97 file(1,300kB) with embedded txt, word 97 doc and html(?)<BR>
files.<BR>
<BR>
E-Mail me if you would like a copy. (Tell me which one to!)<BR>
<BR>
Mark Laiho(Mork) as in "Mork and Gork"<BR>
mclaih@yesresources.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:56:41 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
There's another reason to put the "Colonies" in several different star<BR>
systems: if they were all in *one* star system, the Colonials wouldn't<BR>
have had any reason to build spacecraft capable of crossing interstellar<BR>
space, and Galactica would have just been a really big System Defense<BR>
Boat... That whole show was considerably worse than "Star Trek" with<BR>
respect to its scientific plausibility (heck, it was worse than "Star<BR>
Trek: Voyager"), so using it for anything beyond the general situation and<BR>
the "look and feel" would be silly...<BR>
                                                             - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:02:11 -0400<BR>
From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions  <BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor wrote:<BR>
> There's another reason to put the "Colonies" in several different star <BR>
> systems: if they were all in *one* star system, the Colonials wouldn't <BR>
> have had any reason to build spacecraft capable of crossing <BR>
> interstellar space, and Galactica would have just been a really big <BR>
> System Defense Boat... <BR>
<BR>
Trade.  Resource mining.  Exploration.  The Colonies had more<BR>
activities to defend than what was going on in their home system.<BR>
<BR>
The reason for the Cylon war against the Colonies was that the Colonies<BR>
intervened in the Cylon attempt to subjugate another starfaring<BR>
species friendly to the Colonies.  The Colonies may not have produced<BR>
strong second (third?) generation colonies yet (though they did<BR>
have outposts and mining colonies), but they were active as an <BR>
interstellar power.<BR>
<BR>
Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:21:24 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Powerful Characters (WAS TNE)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/20/00 3:38:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, julius@xs4all.nl <BR>
writes:<BR>
<BR>
> If you are familiar with Sci-Fi writer Jack Vance, you may know his 5-book<BR>
>  series the Demon Princes. In it he describes an interstellar society of<BR>
>  humans inside a stable political entity (the Oikumene - something for you<BR>
>  greek scholars to explain) and 'the beyond' a lawless and chaotic outback<BR>
>  of frontier worlds.<BR>
<BR>
"Oikoumeme" was a Greek term that meant something like "the entire<BR>
inhabited world."  It's the root for English words like "ecumenical."<BR>
<BR>
In the Traveller universe, the closest equivalent might be a reference to<BR>
the whole of Charted Space.  After all, canonically there is no civilization<BR>
beyond there. . .<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:43:39 -0700<BR>
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)<BR>
Subject: Re: K'kree battledress<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: K'kree battledress was Re: Better wounded than dead<BR>
...<BR>
>In situations where armor is advisable I would expect a kind of non-sealed<BR>
>armor with a shield. It's the closed facepiece that would be the problem (at<BR>
>least that's what bothers most claustrophobic humans). Perhaps a vac suit<BR>
>with a bubble-type helmet would be bearable (one-way in visible light only)<BR>
>to them, but I doubt it. I expect that robots would be used for most work<BR>
>that is done by zero-g crews in vac suits or workpods.<BR>
<BR>
  FWIW, the old Martian Metals 15mm K'kree figures had a bag of vacc-suited<BR>
cattle, and they do actually have quite large "face-plates" - not quite<BR>
full head, IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2790<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 20 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2791<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
Traveller Short Fiction<BR>
RE: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: [TrekRPG] ICON/D20 conversions?<BR>
RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
RE: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
Will that be 1 lump or 2000?  (was:  Moving a rock)<BR>
Partial Gravity and Cells<BR>
OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
Entropic Wars Message from GM <BR>
C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
Re: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
[BITS] GT Starships Version 5 Released<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:46:41 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
<BR>
on 7/19/00 11:19 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> T4 has fixed ranges and *every* weapon has the same base chance of<BR>
> success at each of the ranges.  However, each weapon has a modifier<BR>
<BR>
[snip]<BR>
<BR>
So I was reading it right. Every weapons has the same base chance to hit?!<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> Description  Dam  TL   Range<BR>
> Rifle, cR776  4   10   Medium (3)<BR>
> <BR>
> The rifle has a Medium rating and so it gets a +3 DM on all *aimed*<BR>
> fire.  Both a rifle and a pistol have a Staggering task at Long<BR>
> range and an equal chance of hitting on snap fire, but the rifle<BR>
> gets a +3 DM when aimed.  Joe Generio (all 7's) and 2 with his rifle,<BR>
> adds the +3 to his 7 characteristic and his 2 skill giving him a<BR>
> target of 12.  Then he attempts to roll 12- if he is aiming (9- if<BR>
> he isn't) on the number of dice required by the distance of the<BR>
> shot.<BR>
<BR>
How is a medium rating different to a short or long rating?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thanks<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:59:39 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Traveller Short Fiction<BR>
<BR>
The Fantasy & Fiction Network, for which I am Creative Director (gawd help<BR>
them) is about to move onto a dedicated server. When this happens -<BR>
literally any day now - there will be a number of new features appearing.<BR>
Among them is Traveller short fiction.<BR>
<BR>
This is the fiction initially collected for the J Andrew Keith Memorial<BR>
collection. Sadly that project is dead in the water due to reasons I can't<BR>
discuss. (and no, I'm not even going to say WHY I can't discuss them).<BR>
<BR>
However, Marc has very kindly granted me permission to publish the<BR>
collection on the F&F site. The first four tales will appear in the next few<BR>
days - assuming no server glitches (thereby hangs a techie tale, and very<BR>
nearly a techie...!). These tales will be:<BR>
<BR>
Against The Coming of Night - (Long Night Era)<BR>
High Guard - (Julian War Era)<BR>
An Expendable Operative - (Post Julian War Era)<BR>
Treason - (Rebellion Era)<BR>
<BR>
Others will follow in due course. Some are by Traveller authors, others by<BR>
TML members... all of the stories are damn good.<BR>
<BR>
Also on a publishing note; Behind the Throne is now available from the<BR>
publisher (www.highbridgepress.com) or from Amazon, Barnes & Noble and<BR>
presumably Borders. ISBN is 0-9678832-0-2, author Martin J Dougherty.<BR>
<BR>
I also have a Napoleonic adventure coming out this month in ebook format<BR>
from www.23house.com<BR>
<BR>
I've just signed deals for the print novel The Eye of Glory, which should be<BR>
out by Christmas, and another ebook entitled In Glory Die, available early<BR>
next year from The Fiction Works www.fictionworks.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm still open to Traveller fiction for the F&F website - talk to me about<BR>
submissions first. They have to be okayed by Marc but they get filtered<BR>
through me first.<BR>
<BR>
And anyone wanting to talk about book or ebook publishing... ask. I rarely<BR>
bite. Honest.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:20:25 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
returned.<BR>
<BR>
The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:35:14 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [TrekRPG] ICON/D20 conversions?<BR>
<BR>
Has anyone ever played this "D20" system, or seen it in use? I am not <BR>
familiar with it and would like an explanation of what exactly we are all <BR>
talking about. It seems since I exclusively play science fiction games I <BR>
guess I need to become familiar with this new system since it appears to be <BR>
dominating the Scfi gaming future. What next? Marc Miller announcing T5 is <BR>
using the D20 system? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:41:52 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
Ahhhhh, my plan is working perfectly!  Bwwwaaahhhh hhhaaahhhaa<BR>
ahhahahahahahh!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy!  I don't use the G:T rules either, but there's such a wealth of info<BR>
available that I started buying G:T before I started doing work for it.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Legate<BR>
> Legion<BR>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 11:35 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     Doug Berry & Jesse DeGraff, I hold you two personally responsible for<BR>
> what I did today.  I hope you are happy.  I bought everything for<BR>
> GT today,<BR>
> in a fit of madness.  I did not buy the GURPs basic book, but due to Dougs<BR>
> glowing review of the Alien Races 3, made me look at it.  And, I needed it<BR>
> for my current CT/MT game.  And, Jesse your artwork in GT was so good, it<BR>
> was worth the money I paid for them.  As well as pre-ordering GT:  Ground<BR>
> Forces.<BR>
>     I hope you too are very happy.<BR>
>     Though, I do not plan to use the rules for GT, but the CT/MT<BR>
> rules I am<BR>
> using, so I only bought it for the setting, nothing more nothing less.  So<BR>
> it is a win-win situation.  You get my money & I get infromation.<BR>
>     God have mercy on my soul.<BR>
><BR>
>     I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
> Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
> ICQ # 8973001<BR>
> legate@futureone.com<BR>
><BR>
> "I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
> places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
> passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:28:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
> It's the sort of thing the Scout Service would have done during the<BR>
> either the initial survey, or the followup visit of a survey vessel<BR>
> after the initial visit by a Type-S or equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
So there was an administrative cock-up/corruption/data corruption or<BR>
something.<BR>
<BR>
You ever worked with a government agency?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:29:39 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
> > But not, I'd imagine, very fast.<BR>
> <BR>
> Actually *quite* fast since the heating is done via *x-rays*, which<BR>
> tend to be absorbed *below* the surface, leading to *explosive*<BR>
> vaporization of subsurface materials, which will fling off the stuff<BR>
> above them at high speed.<BR>
<BR>
Ahah...that makes sense. Cheers, Leonard.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:38:18 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Merc <merc@qvlinc.com><BR>
Subject: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
<BR>
Anyone happen to know the fonts used to create the original Traveller Logo<BR>
on the books and/or boxed sets?  Wanted to make some graphics for a<BR>
program I'm working on and wanted to use the font and I don't seem to have<BR>
one that is similar.<BR>
<BR>
Coy Krill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:38:38 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Viktor Haag <vhaag@rim.net><BR>
Subject: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
<BR>
Merc writes:<BR>
 > Anyone happen to know the fonts used to create the original<BR>
 > Traveller Logo on the books and/or boxed sets?  Wanted to make<BR>
 > some graphics for a program I'm working on and wanted to use<BR>
 > the font and I don't seem to have one that is similar.<BR>
<BR>
Looks an awful lot like Optima Sans to me -- it's from the<BR>
LinoType Hell foundry, and available from Adobe's Type Library.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Viktor Haag                           Senior Technical Writer, RIM<BR>
'79 99, '89 9000T, '00 9-3 SE         My opinions are my own, only.<BR>
tc++ ru ge(+) !3i c jt- au(-) pi+ he(+)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:53:14 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
<BR>
I've a copy of the Optima font at the following page.  I also have the<BR>
Bilandin Vilani font there.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Merc<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:38 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Anyone happen to know the fonts used to create the original Traveller Logo<BR>
> on the books and/or boxed sets?  Wanted to make some graphics for a<BR>
> program I'm working on and wanted to use the font and I don't seem to have<BR>
> one that is similar.<BR>
><BR>
> Coy Krill<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:57:38 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: boring rules stuff <T4 Combat question><BR>
<BR>
On 07/20/00 at 06:46 AM,  Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>So I was reading it right. Every weapons has the same base chance to<BR>
>hit?!<BR>
<BR>
Yes, and that bothered me.  The DM for aimed fire is the only real<BR>
thing that differenciates weapon's ability to hit, and then only for<BR>
aimed fire.  Personally, I suggest a house rule that applies the<BR>
weapon DM for *all* fire (both snap and aimed), but treat snap fire<BR>
as a multiple action.  As a multiple action, the character's<BR>
Attribute is halved before being added to the skill and other DM's.<BR>
<BR>
     Att Skill  DM<BR>
Snap  7    2    +3  = (7/2,d) + 2 + 3 = 8<BR>
Aimed 7    2    +3  = 7 + 2 + 3 = 12<BR>
<BR>
And Snapping off two shots would be  (7/4,d) + 2 + 3 = 6<BR>
 <BR>
>> Description  Dam  TL   Range<BR>
>> Rifle, cR776  4   10   Medium (3)<BR>
>> <BR>
>> The rifle has a Medium rating and so it gets a +3 DM on all *aimed*<BR>
>> fire.  Both a rifle and a pistol have a Staggering task at Long<BR>
>> range and an equal chance of hitting on snap fire, but the rifle<BR>
>> gets a +3 DM when aimed.  Joe Generio (all 7's) and 2 with his rifle,<BR>
>> adds the +3 to his 7 characteristic and his 2 skill giving him a<BR>
>> target of 12.  Then he attempts to roll 12- if he is aiming (9- if<BR>
>> he isn't) on the number of dice required by the distance of the<BR>
>> shot.<BR>
<BR>
>How is a medium rating different to a short or long rating?<BR>
<BR>
You snipped the table. <g>  A short is +2 and a long is +4. <BR>
<BR>
0  Contact<BR>
1  V.Short<BR>
2  Short<BR>
3  Medium<BR>
4  Long<BR>
5  V.Long<BR>
<BR>
Now, the example in the T4 book isn't quite right.  It uses a Body<BR>
Pistol vs a Rifle, and gives the Body Pistol a +1DM.  However the<BR>
Body Pistol is rated as a Contact weapon, so it really should<BR>
receive a +0 rating for aimed fire.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:30:41 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: Will that be 1 lump or 2000?  (was:  Moving a rock)<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
>Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
><BR>
<snip><BR>
><BR>
>See my post about why getting hit by a cloud of fragments is *worse*.<BR>
><BR>
>In fact, smaller pieces deliver the im,pact energy to the planet more<BR>
>efficiently.<BR>
<BR>
	Check out the comic Albedo.  In vol. 2 #3 (I think), the 'bad guys' come up<BR>
with a weapon for attacking planets.  In that universe, the 'jump distance'<BR>
is much farther out of the system, sh ships jump in with a pretty hefty<BR>
velocity and decelerate all the way in.  An attacking ship will release<BR>
drones when first jumping in.  These ACVs (autonomous combat vehicles) coast<BR>
all the way in, reaching the inner system way in advance of the main ships.<BR>
Some are sensor drones, while others use a bit of terminal guidance to<BR>
strike targets on the ground or in orbit.<BR>
	The new weapon is a modified ACV that breaks up into thousands of smaller<BR>
pieces at the proper altitude.  These pieces vaporize, dumping all the KE<BR>
into the atmosphere.  This creates a tremendous shockwave, producing all the<BR>
effects of an huge air-bursted nuke, but without all the messy residual<BR>
radiation, and with less lasting damage to the landscape.<BR>
<BR>
	I highly recommend Albedo to fellow Traveller nuts.  The background, though<BR>
a 'furry comic', is extremely hard-SF, and Steve Gallacci's ideas about<BR>
space combat are pretty interesting.  The comics are reprinted in graphic<BR>
novel form under the title Command Review vols. 1-4.<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:43:55 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Partial Gravity and Cells<BR>
<BR>
In light of Robert's most recent series of posts, I tought this news<BR>
tidbit might be of interest:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/18/space.cell.growth.ap/index.html<BR>
<BR>
[here's an excerpt:]<BR>
The new study, published in Tuesday's issue ofProceedings of the National<BR>
Academy of Science, foundthat cells that began to develop in the<BR>
weightlessness ofspace did not organize the microtubules even after<BR>
returnto Earth. Organization was normal, however, in companion sets of<BR>
cells sent up in the European Space Agency rocket that were spun in a<BR>
centrifuge during their first 13 minutes of development. <BR>
[end]<BR>
<BR>
This is interesting, it suggests that brief respits of exposure to normal<BR>
gravity might do a lot to counter the effects of low gravity.  The short<BR>
article I read didn't mention what the gs were in the centrifuge, but I<BR>
imagine they went with 1g.  It would be interesting to know how things go<BR>
at the cellular level at intermediate gravities.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:22:41 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
A not so minor anniversary today: <BR>
<BR>
21 years ago, a human set foot on the Moon.  <BR>
<BR>
I feel great pride that we could do such a thing, and great sadness that<BR>
we've turned our backs on it.<BR>
<BR>
Ad Astra, folks...ad astra.<BR>
<BR>
We now return to our regularly scheduled flamewars...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:16:38 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Entropic Wars Message from GM <BR>
<BR>
First: I do not intend to publish campaign material on the TML once the game <BR>
is established and running. I am publishing this to ensure interested players <BR>
are contacted. <BR>
<BR>
Campaign Administriva: <BR>
<BR>
I have activated a new screen name (sn) for use in this campaign -  <BR>
<BR>
                                GMTraveller@aol.com. <BR>
<BR>
Please respond using that sn. I apologize for the delay in responding to you. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Answers to key questions:<BR>
<BR>
1. Rules, what in the heck are we using?  Answer: At first I considered using <BR>
the GURPS Traveller rules because of their quality and adaptability. I am <BR>
very impressed with the level of detail being put into their source books. <BR>
Then as work on the project proceeded I recognized that the GURPS rules are <BR>
not abundant in the TML community. Since I am recruiting from that list using <BR>
the GURPS rules could be a problem. Then I also began looking at online <BR>
playability. As rich and detailed as GURPS Traveller allows gamers build <BR>
their characters I determined that for what this vision of this project <BR>
involved, that level of detail might not be feasible. The rules issue is very <BR>
fluid at this point. My intent at this time is the following:<BR>
<BR>
CHARACTER CREATION: Classic Traveller (especially the advanced character <BR>
creation rules from Books 4, 5, 6, and 7), MegaTraveller, and Marc Miller's <BR>
T4. WITH the following house rule: Skill level totals may not exceed the sum <BR>
of the UPP intelligence and education total, as per The Traveller Book and <BR>
MegaTraveller. This is to keep all characters within the same ball park skill <BR>
amount wise since we are allowing use of so many sets of tables and rolling <BR>
conventions. I own copies of every version of Traveller with the exception of <BR>
the New Era game so there will be no problem interpreting player submitted <BR>
information. <BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://www.warehouse23.com/item.cgi?FFE001">Warehouse 23: Classic 
Traveller: Books 0-8</A> (For those of you who witnessed the past events on <BR>
the TML last week, this is truly ironic.) <BR>
<BR>
2. How many characters will I get to play? One - Each player will respond to <BR>
turns in the persona of their generated character. Your character by the <BR>
nature of this game environment will have opportunities to control various <BR>
numbers of npcs to do your bidding. The npcs will be the primary agents to <BR>
accomplish player directed tasks, not the actual player character. The <BR>
role-playing in this campaign will occur when you generate responses for your <BR>
turn. When you write your turn is when you will be role-playing as your <BR>
character directing your minions to do your bidding. If you were expecting a <BR>
"sim" this might not be your game. I would prefer that once your character is <BR>
established you maintain that character for the duration of the game or until <BR>
it becomes necessary to generate a new player character (this IS Traveller <BR>
after all). However, I recognize that sometimes characters are not the glove <BR>
we thought they would be, therefore if character adjustments must be made <BR>
"early on" in the campaign that is permissible. <BR>
<BR>
Current list of characters: <BR>
<BR>
    Darrian Naval Captain (knighted)<BR>
    Darrian Baron<BR>
    Ex-Army Colonel (affiliation not decided upon at this point)<BR>
    Sword Worlds Nobleman/Warlord<BR>
<BR>
3. COMBAT! How is combat going to be resolved? Very carefully. First off I am <BR>
not an accountant nor a computer programer. I am an elementary school teacher <BR>
retired from the army. I consider myself a role-player first, and a war gamer <BR>
second. That said -- For encounters between npcs such as assassinations, <BR>
assaults, etc., I am using Classic Traveller's combat system to determine <BR>
result. For large scale ground combat encounters I intend to use Classic <BR>
Traveller Book 4 (Mercenary). I also will use Striker, MegaTraveller, GURPS <BR>
Traveller, and T4 as resources in fleshing out the results of combat <BR>
encounters. For space battles I intend to use Classic Traveller Book 5 (High <BR>
Guard) primarily due to its simplicity and ease of use. One of the truly <BR>
attractive aspects for me personally is the Universal Profiles. I like High <BR>
Guard's USP format. Again, I intend to use MegaTraveller, GURPS Traveller, <BR>
and T4 to flesh out results of battles while generating the narrative <BR>
responses. For very, very large scale combats I will use Fifth Frontier <BR>
War/T4 Imperial Squadrons rules -- but those results will be kept close hold <BR>
and filtered out through the game narrative over an extended period. I think <BR>
that Traveller's natural division of time into weeks due to the Jump Drive of <BR>
the starships will work favorably in support of our campaign.  <BR>
<BR>
For example: Player A submits a ship built using the MegaTraveller format <BR>
that is more heavily focused on the details of the ship's capabilities than <BR>
High Guard. I will use the information provided in determining the <BR>
situational environment in which the combat will occur, i.e., who has <BR>
initiative. I will then use information provided to reformat the ship to High <BR>
Guard's USP. (It is easier to modify down to HG than up to the more detailed <BR>
systems!) ALL combat rolls will be made using High Guard's tables. <BR>
<BR>
Thank God the basic generation of planets and animal encounters remained <BR>
relatively similar in three of the four rules systems we are using!!!<BR>
<BR>
4. Can I build ships and vehicles using one of the rules systems I own or are <BR>
most familiar with? ABSOLUTELY!  The only restriction I have placed to date <BR>
is the number of skill levels your character may have to begin play! Ships <BR>
and vehicles submitted must make sense and conform to established Traveller <BR>
canon for technology use. Sorry -- no phasers or tricorders! In return you <BR>
must trust me as the gm to appropriately apply your vehicle's attributes and <BR>
abilities in a fictional environment effectively against vehicles designed <BR>
using different rules systems. How will I do this? Using a cascade approach, <BR>
I will use Classic Traveller/Striker/High Guard to the fullest extent to <BR>
interpret your vehicle's attributes. When those rules are exhausted I will <BR>
reference the appropriate alternate rules, i.e., MegaTraveller, GURPS, or T4. <BR>
<BR>
5. Technology use, can I use equipment, armor, and weapons from my rules of <BR>
choice in the campaign? Yes, BUT I will modify the descriptions and <BR>
performance of the said item to conform to Classic Traveller conventions for <BR>
application in the campaign. Again it is easier to modify down to Classic <BR>
Traveller with its broad applications than it is to modify up to the later <BR>
versions with more specific descriptions and capabilities. <BR>
<BR>
Sounds messy? Not really, remember the turns will be monthly with turns <BR>
representing a month's worth of activity in the play environment. I will <BR>
publish on or about the first day of the month. You can respond at your <BR>
leisure but hopefully by the 15th allowing me two weeks to prepare the next <BR>
posting. If you miss a posting, the time progresses on with npcs acting as <BR>
expected based on established in play behavior. The mechanism that will make <BR>
this format work is the use of npcs as agents to be directed by the players <BR>
in persona, then those npcs responding back in persona. This is actually <BR>
nothing more that a network simulation in reality. When in doubt, default to <BR>
Classic Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Campaign General Information - Officially Turn 1.0: <BR>
<BR>
Traveller News Service:<BR>
<BR>
[: Vilis/Vilis (1119-A593943-A)                                         Date: <BR>
031-1120<BR>
<BR>
Negotiations between representatives of the Sword Worlds and the lawful <BR>
government of Entrope broke down again today. Negotiators are under pressure <BR>
to resolve the disposition of Sword World refugees stranded on Entrope during <BR>
final days of the Fifth Frontier War in 1110. A decade of negotiations has <BR>
failed to reach a conclusion for the dilemma faced by hundreds of thousands <BR>
of Sword World citizens still residing on Entrope. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[: Gram/Sword Worlds (1223-A895957-B)                               Date: <BR>
061-1120<BR>
<BR>
A collision between a Confederation transport and a subsidized merchant <BR>
inbound from Joyeuse occurred today at the primary high port in orbit today. <BR>
The collision resulted in tremendous loss of life due to the presence of <BR>
Joyeuse household troops on the transport. Speculation as to the cause the <BR>
collision include rumors of sabotage by the Border Worlds or even the <BR>
Darrians, although the Confederation Port Authority quickly attributed that <BR>
to prejudice and not fact. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[: Gram/Sword Worlds (1223-A895957-B)                           Date: 125-1120<BR>
<BR>
It saddens the Confederation High Council to announce that negotiations <BR>
between the Darrian world of Entrope and the Sword Worlds Confederacy have <BR>
been forced into recess for an extended period to be determined at a later <BR>
date. The negotiations have been ongoing for over a decade and concern the <BR>
disposition and repatriation of Sword World citizens left stranded during the <BR>
Confederation's withdrawal from the Entropic Cluster in 1110. Access to these <BR>
citizens by the Confederacy as been limited at best and nonexistent at the <BR>
worst of times over the past ten years. Hundreds of thousands of Sword World <BR>
refugees were stranded in the four world cluster at the end of the Fifth <BR>
Frontier War. The isolated nature of the cluster has frustrated Sword World <BR>
diplomatic efforts to enlist the aid of the Zhodani Consulate and Third <BR>
Imperium in resolving this growing crisis. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[: Mire/Darrian (0527-A665A95-B)                                    Date: <BR>
205-1120<BR>
<BR>
Word has arrived from Jacent that a crisis is brewing over the resolution of <BR>
repatriation of Sword World refugees stranded in the Entropic Worlds Cluster <BR>
at the end of the Fifth Frontier War. The Entropic Worlds are a small cluster <BR>
of four worlds grouped together at the coreward edge of our Darrian <BR>
subsector. For generations the Entropic Worlds have served as the gateway to <BR>
Third Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate for we Darrians. These worlds also <BR>
represent the most likely avenue of approach for invading forces entering our <BR>
subsector from the great empires. Although it is true that the Zhodani <BR>
Consulate has showed little interest in developing trade routes through our <BR>
space, the Zhodani are historical allies of the Sword Worlders. The only <BR>
sensible route from the Consulate into Sword World space is through the <BR>
Entropic Cluster. <BR>
<BR>
Descriptions of life in the Entropic Cluster coming to us from Jacent paint a <BR>
picture of heroic efforts on the part of the Entropians in the face of <BR>
horrendous conditions. The hub world of the cluster is Entrope <BR>
(0720-E336AAA-C) with its 70+ billion inhabitants within one system. Dominion <BR>
over Entrope has been exchanged repeatedly between the Sword Worlds and our <BR>
Darrian Confederation over many generations. The Entropic Worlds were <BR>
colonized initially by our Darrian forefathers many millennia ago. The Sword <BR>
Worlds first invaded the Entropic Cluster over 500 years ago during the first <BR>
Frontier War. The Sword Worlds claimed sovereignty over Darrian lands for the <BR>
next five centuries until the conclusion of the Fifth Frontier War when <BR>
Darrian soldiers liberated the entire Entropic Cluster. During the 500 year <BR>
rule of the Sword Worlds their people dominated the economic development of <BR>
the cluster's worlds, keeping the original Darrian colonists' descendants in <BR>
a virtual state of servitude. A decade ago this all changed, led by Major <BR>
Kerin Yoldat the ethnic Darrians revolted against their Sword Worlds task <BR>
masters. Supported by our elite Darrian Navy, Major Kerin Yoldat led the coup <BR>
that shifted the balance of power in the system to our side liberating <BR>
hundreds of millions from oppression. Now a decade later, the Sword Worlders <BR>
left by their retreating navy in the Entropic Cluster, are crying out that <BR>
they cannot survive in the conditions they imposed on the ethnic Darrians for <BR>
over 500 years. <BR>
<BR>
Specific Faction Information - Forth coming. <BR>
<BR>
Get your characters in if you have not yet, no character, no Specific <BR>
Factional Information. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:18:35 -0500<BR>
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com><BR>
Subject: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
<BR>
Oops, maybe we've been on a road leading to a dead end, theoretically<BR>
speaking:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Here's another challenge to "absolutes":<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/19/black.hole.wind/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Now, there are many people here on this list FAR sharper than I regarding<BR>
astrophysics and particle physics, but here is some strong medicine to<BR>
suggest that Traveller canonical "handwaves" may not be too far off in left<BR>
field. It's simply discovering what is possible, not proving what is<BR>
impossible.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
<BR>
Matthew W. Helton writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> Oops, maybe we've been on a road leading to a dead end, theoretically<BR>
> speaking:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/index.html<BR>
<BR>
While interesting, FTL is only prohibited if energy or information travels FTL, and neither of these seems to be true.  There are several classes of virtual objects which can move FTL, it just isn't particularly useful.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's another challenge to "absolutes":<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/19/black.hole.wind/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Which isn't actually about matter coming out of a black hole, AFAICT.  It just suggests that there are weather patterns in the accretion disk, which while interesting doesn't contradict anything about black holes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:06:00 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
<BR>
The original Traveller typefont was Optima. Note that the Traveller was <BR>
italic, but not bold.<BR>
<BR>
Eterna is a common substitute.<BR>
<BR>
Marc Miller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:24:32 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:37:20 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: [BITS] GT Starships Version 5 Released<BR>
<BR>
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
<BR>
20th July 2000 -<BR>
BITS is proud to announce the latest version of Rob Prior's 101 <BR>
Starships for GURPS Traveller. The latest version of this *free* <BR>
GURPS Traveller supplement includes:<BR>
<BR>
- - Over 100 Starships designed for GT (using the modular system, over <BR>
25 more in this release alone.<BR>
<BR>
- - 3 ships with Deckplans.<BR>
<BR>
- - Design Spreadsheets and statistics.<BR>
<BR>
- - GTL9 to 12 ships<BR>
<BR>
- - A gorgeous Jesse DeGraff fronts piece.<BR>
<BR>
Designed using Rob's excellent GT Shipyard for MacOS program, also <BR>
available from BITS.<BR>
<BR>
To get this file, simply go to the BITS website, click on the Archive <BR>
button, then download the 2.1 Mb Acrobat File.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Dom Mooney - BITS Webmaster.<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS, CORE and their respective logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2791<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2792</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, July 20 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2792<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
The Imperium's open frontier<BR>
Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
Optima<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
Re: [TrekRPG] ICON/D20 conversions?<BR>
Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Maps update<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
Emperor Lucan in MT<BR>
Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:40:43 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic<BR>
> rules to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present<BR>
> them with in order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game,<BR>
> and the flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
I'm very interested in this too.  One problem I had with T4 was that my<BR>
group of players were veterans of things like Rifts and Shadowrun.  The<BR>
Traveller setting can feel pretty dated and boring, IMHO, to a lot of<BR>
people who are used to playing 8th Level Psionic Glitterboy Pilots.<BR>
<BR>
I also had problems with people getting *very* angry every time they<BR>
rolled Equestrian on the character generation charts.  This is why I think<BR>
CT is so great for character generation.  You only get a handful of<BR>
skills, and these tend to be relevant and useful.  I didn't have any CT<BR>
materials at the time, though. <BR>
<BR>
I think if you wanted to give people a feel for what Traveller is like,<BR>
you are best off referring them to S/F they may have read, especially the<BR>
Foundation trilogy.  <BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:46:44 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/20/00 5:26:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
trav@RPGRealms.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules <BR>
to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in <BR>
order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the flavor of <BR>
the Imperium?<BR>
 <BR>
 Hunter<BR>
 The GRIP Team<BR>
 http://www.RPGRealms.com >><BR>
<BR>
One Word: Snapshot. A board game that featured Traveller's combat system for <BR>
tactical play inside small starships. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:05:18 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very <BR>
> basic rules to help introduce someone to the game, what would you <BR>
> present them with in order to give them a basic feel to the rules <BR>
> of the game, and the flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
     I remember a one-page Intro to Traveller that DGP made up in the MegaTraveller days.  It had an annotated character write-up (UPP, skills, career/terms, etc), 1-2 paragraph descriptions of the Imperium and each of the Major Races, and (I think) an annotated Task description (the very basics (difficulties, stat/skill DMs), not all the special cases).  It was designed, IIRC, for tournaments/demos and was published in an issue of TD.  Something like that would be a good start, followed perhaps, as someone else mentioned, by a game of "Snapshot" (since you'll be using CT).  Char-gen is best explained by actually doing it, and the other systems (Trade, World UWPs, Ship Design & Combat, etc) are nothing newbies would need to know.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
P.S.  Would He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless have a choke-hold to the rights for even something as insignificant (and non-creative) as this?<BR>
If not, it might be a good idea for someone to put this (or something similar) on a web-site.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:14:19 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
<BR>
> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
> Subject: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
><BR>
> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules<BR>
to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in<BR>
order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the flavor of<BR>
the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
The fastest you can get information somewhere is in a ship.<BR>
<BR>
A ship takes at least a week to get somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium is a government of men, not laws, and it rules space. Planets<BR>
rule themselves.<BR>
<BR>
The lifeblood of the Imperium is commerce. Dont get in the way of the<BR>
Imperium's lifeblood.<BR>
<BR>
There is no Prime Directive. If you want to sell fusion guns and medikits to<BR>
the natives, get in the queue. And think about what they have that you want.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Ruleswise ? Dunno. I'd probably say 'It's a first generation system. Skills<BR>
describe how well you could do a job - 1 is an amateur, 2 is OK, 3 is good<BR>
and so on. There are no character classes and stuff like that.'.<BR>
<BR>
Also, as a GM I'd also be doing chrome during character generation. It isnt<BR>
2 terms in the Marines - it's 2 terms in the 106th Drop Infantry, homeported<BR>
in Glisten (Glisten's an asteroid belt). It isnt 4 terms in the Merchants,<BR>
it's 4 terms in General Products LiC, mostly on scheduled routes between<BR>
Glisten and Mora.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:23:56 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Ahhhhh, my plan is working perfectly!  Bwwwaaahhhh hhhaaahhhaa<BR>
>ahhahahahahahh!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You are a very evil man, Jesse, very evil, but a good artist.<BR>
<BR>
>Enjoy!  I don't use the G:T rules either, but there's such a wealth of info<BR>
>available that I started buying G:T before I started doing work for it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I am, as it is just about the only way to get your artwork in a good<BR>
hardcopy format.<BR>
<BR>
>Best,<BR>
>Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:27:11 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
> The other point to consider here is that even if a world has<BR>
> especially restrictive laws/customs regarding sexual morality, these<BR>
> will presumably not apply once you cross the Extrality Line into the<BR>
> starport.  That might explain why so many startowns have such sleazy<BR>
> reputations - many could have been set up to offer *locals* all the<BR>
> pleasures which were literally illegal outside the starport...<BR>
> Another aspect of this would be that many people whose own sexuality<BR>
> didn't meet the norm prescribed by their culture (whatever that might<BR>
> be) would be keen to get jobs working at the starport, especially if<BR>
> the job came with on-site accommodation.  Something to think about<BR>
> next time your players start an adventure "sitting in a starport<BR>
> bar..."  Of course, all this means that the local<BR>
> governmental/religious/cultural leaders will be constantly denouncing<BR>
> the starport as a hotbed of vice and depravity, and organising<BR>
> blockades, boycotts, graffitti, harrassment, terrorism...<BR>
><BR>
> Stephen<BR>
><BR>
OK, this is something I was allways puzzled about, the law level of a world.<BR>
From reading the above I presume the law level for the type of world,<BR>
Stephen is describing, has an high law level.<BR>
If this is true then what would be the law level in the confines of the<BR>
Imperialy owned Starport?<BR>
<BR>
Michael.Scanlon@BTinternet.com<BR>
<BR>
"Nothing that God in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for...."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:28:23 -0400<BR>
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
<BR>
>Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
>> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very <BR>
>> basic rules to help introduce someone to the game, what would you <BR>
>> present them with in order to give them a basic feel to the rules <BR>
>> of the game, and the flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>     I remember a one-page Intro to Traveller that DGP made up in the MegaTraveller days.  It had an annotated character write-up (UPP, skills, career/terms, etc), 1-2 paragraph descriptions of the Imperium and each of the Major Races, and (I think) an annotated Task description (the very basics (difficulties, stat/skill DMs), not all the special cases).  It was designed, IIRC, for tournaments/demos and was published in an issue of TD.  Something like that would be a good start, followed perhaps, as someone else mentioned, by a game of "Snapshot" (since you'll be using CT).  Char-gen is best explained by actually doing it, and the other systems (Trade, World UWPs, Ship Design & Combat, etc) are nothing newbies would need to know.<BR>
<BR>
Anyone have a copy they can scan and send me? (grip@RPGRealms.com)<BR>
<BR>
>P.S.  Would He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless have a choke-hold to the rights for even something as insignificant (and non-creative) as this?<BR>
<BR>
Hehe well Marc will always have a 'choke-hold' on the rights, but you've gotta admit, he's also very generous about what can be done and posted on a not-for-profit basis. If you read the FAQs on his site about this he is pretty good about what you can do with existing and new material.<BR>
<BR>
>If not, it might be a good idea for someone to put this (or something similar) on a web-site.<BR>
<BR>
That is the idea here. We want to develop an introduction to Classic Traveller that we and others can refer new potential player to. Sort of a Fast-Play set of rules as such. Once we have it together we'll present it to Marc for approval.<BR>
<BR>
Hunter<BR>
The GRIP Team<BR>
http://www.RPGRealms.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:34:46 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
<BR>
> Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:02:37 -0400<BR>
> From: "Smith, Walter" <SmithW@hartwick.edu><BR>
> Subject: RE: Declining societies (not so long, OT)<BR>
> The majority of American millionaires didn't start out that way.<BR>
> We are annually treated to news articles of millionaires who<BR>
> didn't end up as millionaires either.<BR>
><BR>
> Walt Smith<BR>
<BR>
I'm not going to buy into this one for modern societies, but I do have some<BR>
thoughts about class and the Third Imperium.<BR>
<BR>
The 3I is class-ridden. Good social standing is pretty much essential -<BR>
heck, TAS puts you into your social niche on it's forms, which then get used<BR>
on stuff like job applications for mercenary tickets.<BR>
<BR>
This means what clubs you belong to, what school you went to, which regiment<BR>
you served in, which corporation you work for, what job you do, are all<BR>
important.<BR>
<BR>
But the Imperium, being the pragmatic place it is, recognises that the<BR>
noveau riche have somethign to bring, so I guess there is a career path.<BR>
<BR>
I think that career path is state service. Exceedingly expensive state<BR>
service.<BR>
<BR>
Lets think about taxation for a bit. The Imperium has a number of<BR>
exceedingly rich worlds. Trin, Mora, places like that.<BR>
<BR>
Turning that GWP into battle riders, plasma guns, Standard Imperial Service<BR>
Rations is going to take time and bureacratic energy, which you probably<BR>
dont have when you get into a war.<BR>
<BR>
A solution is to turn to a collection of rich individuals and corporations<BR>
and say 'Would you like the opportunity to serve the Imperium ?'. They spend<BR>
their cash and credit on what the Imperium needs, and in return the Imperium<BR>
passes over a bunch of Imperial bonds, with a coupon rate of 1%.<BR>
<BR>
How they get to assist depends on means. A planetary notable might be<BR>
casually advised of the need for someone to provide bridging finance for the<BR>
ground defenses on their planet, whilst a defining feature of a<BR>
megacorporation is that the Archduke of Sol could turn to your Sector<BR>
Vice-Chairman at some sports event and say 'Those Solomani are putting it on<BR>
again. You can assist ?', and your Sector VeeCee can say 'In all ways that<BR>
could be required, Your Grace'.<BR>
<BR>
After the emergency is over, then the bureaucratic machines can crank into<BR>
action, and all those bonds can be paid off over many years.<BR>
<BR>
At that point, the social machine also gets to crank into action. That<BR>
jumped-up Belter, who, frankly, still stinks of recycled air, gets invited<BR>
to the Marquis' hunting lodge. Sylochai, whose utterly tasteless cola drinks<BR>
are just everywhere these days, gets advised that the Membership Committee<BR>
would now look favourably on his second son's application for membership to<BR>
the Rowing Club. Amadinkin Corp is invited to tender for the wood panelling<BR>
on the Contessa's new palace. And so on.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:38:27 +1000<BR>
From: "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au><BR>
Subject: The Imperium's open frontier<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium does have an open frontier.<BR>
<BR>
It's a small one, and arguably maintained as open by diplomatic pressure,<BR>
but District 268/5 Sisters subsectors on the Rimward side of the Spinward<BR>
Marches are as close as it gets.<BR>
<BR>
There are even completely uncolonised worlds.<BR>
<BR>
The only rider is that if you want that area to be lawless and wild, treat<BR>
the rumour of the source of Black Globe generators being from an Ancients<BR>
cache on Candor or Andory as a rumour. If it's true, then you wont be able<BR>
to swing a chair in a bar fight without hitting an INI agent.<BR>
<BR>
Not that hitting INI agents with chairs in bar fights is a bad thing, mind<BR>
you.<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 23:43:29 +0100<BR>
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: "traveller mailing list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 8:22 PM<BR>
Subject: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> A not so minor anniversary today: <BR>
> <BR>
> 21 years ago, a human set foot on the Moon.  <BR>
<BR>
A minor nit... 31 years. Just makes it yet more tragic<BR>
<BR>
Matt<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:48:39 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Optima<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 20-Jul-00 4:40:42 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
>  Merc <merc@qvlinc.com><BR>
>  Subject: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
>  <BR>
>  Anyone happen to know the fonts used to create the original Traveller Logo<BR>
>  on the books and/or boxed sets?  Wanted to make some graphics for a<BR>
>  program I'm working on and wanted to use the font and I don't seem to have<BR>
>  one that is similar.<BR>
<BR>
Optima<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:58:45 -0400<BR>
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
<BR>
> Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>P.S.  Would He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless have a choke-hold to the >>rights for even something as insignificant (and non-creative) as this?<BR>
<BR>
>Hehe well Marc will always have a 'choke-hold' on the rights, but >you've gotta admit, he's also very generous about what can be done >and posted on a not-for-profit basis. If you read the FAQs on his >site about this he is pretty good about what you can do with >existing and new material.<BR>
<BR>
I shouldn't have been so coy.  I know Marc is very reasonable on NFP uses, but I was talking about Roger Sanger, who owns the rights to all the DGP material.  Would this one-page handout wholly-derived from pre-existing material be included in Roger's holdings?<BR>
<BR>
Trent<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:13:47 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
<BR>
trentfs@ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I shouldn't have been so coy.  I know Marc is very reasonable on NFP uses,<BR>
> but I was talking about Roger Sanger, who owns the rights to all the DGP material.  Would this one-page handout wholly-derived from pre-existing material be included in Roger's holdings? <BR>
<BR>
Yes.  However, if you wrote your own version it wouldn't be affected by DGP copyrights unless you referenced DGP materials.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:36:27 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [TrekRPG] ICON/D20 conversions?<BR>
<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com <Olegamer@aol.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Has anyone ever played this "D20" system, or seen it in use? I am not<BR>
>familiar with it and would like an explanation of what exactly we are all<BR>
>talking about. It seems since I exclusively play science fiction games I<BR>
>guess I need to become familiar with this new system since it appears to be<BR>
>dominating the Scfi gaming future. What next? Marc Miller announcing T5 is<BR>
>using the D20 system?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    No, from what I understand, T5 will be using the "Rock, Paper, Sissors"<BR>
system.  *j/k*<BR>
    I always thought that the ICON System's Character Creation Rules had it<BR>
roots in CT/MT/TNE Character Creation Rules.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 15:22:30 -0700<BR>
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> A not so minor anniversary today: <BR>
> <BR>
> 21 years ago, a human set foot on the Moon.  <BR>
<BR>
31 years, actually.<BR>
<BR>
> I feel great pride that we could do such a thing, and great sadness that<BR>
> we've turned our backs on it.<BR>
<BR>
I think it was Jerry Pournelle who said something like "I always knew I'd <BR>
get to see the first man set foot on the moon, but I never dreamed I'd <BR>
see the last."<BR>
<BR>
- -Russell B<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:51:53 -0700<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
Subject: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
Michael Scanlon wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
> OK, this is something I was allways puzzled about, the law level of a world.<BR>
> >From reading the above I presume the law level for the type of world,<BR>
> Stephen is describing, has an high law level.<BR>
> If this is true then what would be the law level in the confines of the<BR>
> Imperialy owned Starport?<BR>
<BR>
Likely it would also be high, but of a different sort. Starport Law<BR>
level is set by the Port Commander, and is usually quite high,<BR>
particularly as regards weapons.<BR>
<BR>
However, the kinds of laws that Stephen is describing aren't really<BR>
covered by the classic Traveller Law Level which _simply_ equates to<BR>
'how big of a gun can I carry?'<BR>
<BR>
Implied in this definition of 'Law' and much of canon, is that the<BR>
Imperium is proably really lax concerning a lot of stuff we would<BR>
consider illegal. <BR>
<BR>
The Imperium is a mercantile Empire; interfering with making money is<BR>
the big no-no, so theft, extortion, confidence scams, plus the basic<BR>
life and limb stuff of assault, murder, kidnapping, DUI, etc are what<BR>
are regulated.<BR>
<BR>
Things which paying customers do in the course of normal business, in<BR>
the confines of the business establishment doesn't matter to the<BR>
Imperium, so it's likely that starports are not at all concerned about<BR>
them. <BR>
<BR>
Things like prostitution, gambling, drinking, drugs, heresy, and all the<BR>
stuff the uptights across the extrality line bemoan are really of no<BR>
concern to the Imperium, so long as they don't scare the tourists and<BR>
run off the merchants. Then it breaks the #1 Law 'Don't interfere with<BR>
the cash flow', and the PC intervenes.<BR>
<BR>
Per GT:Starports, the PC has wide and well-nigh absolute authority over<BR>
a Starport, but in the main they know thir job is to keep the wheels of<BR>
commerce greased.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Maps update<BR>
<BR>
Well, I regenerated my maps with the Windhorn sector John Wood put together, and while I was at it I did a bit of reorganization, including putting my sources on the site, and adding a couple statistical files for people who happen to like parsing multi-megabyte colon-separated files.<BR>
<BR>
maps.grandsurvey.com, as before.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:17:08 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
> Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
> Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
> returned.<BR>
><BR>
> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
<BR>
Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
"curtains" of light.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:20:22 -0400<BR>
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
<BR>
I'm tempted to post all my DGP materials and Sanger-be-damned.  Maybe he'll<BR>
get hit by a train or something..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 Washington - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.gocsystems.com/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: <trentfs@ix.netcom.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 6:58 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies (Long)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> > Hunter Gordon wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> >>P.S.  Would He-Who-Shall-Remain-Nameless have a choke-hold to the<BR>
>>rights for even something as insignificant (and non-creative) as this?<BR>
><BR>
> >Hehe well Marc will always have a 'choke-hold' on the rights, but >you've<BR>
gotta admit, he's also very generous about what can be done >and posted on a<BR>
not-for-profit basis. If you read the FAQs on his >site about this he is<BR>
pretty good about what you can do with >existing and new material.<BR>
><BR>
> I shouldn't have been so coy.  I know Marc is very reasonable on NFP uses,<BR>
but I was talking about Roger Sanger, who owns the rights to all the DGP<BR>
material.  Would this one-page handout wholly-derived from pre-existing<BR>
material be included in Roger's holdings?<BR>
><BR>
> Trent<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:04:23 -0400<BR>
From: Joseph J Alberti Jr <albertijjr@juno.com><BR>
Subject: Emperor Lucan in MT<BR>
<BR>
Being educated in Ancient Roman history, I have always enjoyed the<BR>
similarities of the Imperium to the Roman Empire.  I have one question<BR>
that maybe some of you may have insight or can speculate on:<BR>
<BR>
Emperor Lucan has many similarities to a number of young, inexperienced,<BR>
and somewhat tyrannical Roman emperors.  All of those Roman emperors met<BR>
violent deaths at the hands of  someone or some group near to them. <BR>
Lucan's principals or lack there of must have went against the principals<BR>
of  a high percentage of the nobility and the honor of the Admirals in<BR>
the Imperial Navy.  How do you think he lasted so long?  Was the nobility<BR>
so corrupt and unprincipled that an Emperor like Lucan did not disturb<BR>
them?<BR>
<BR>
Joe Alberti<BR>
"Long Live Emperor Dulinor!"<BR>
________________________________________________________________<BR>
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!<BR>
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!<BR>
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:<BR>
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:38:18 -0700<BR>
From: Kristian Miller <travellerne@3rd-imperium.com><BR>
Subject: Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Oops, maybe we've been on a road leading to a dead end, theoretically<BR>
> speaking:<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Superluminal velocities for light have been acheived in plasmas before<BR>
this.  So the "breaking" the speed of light isn't new.  The interesting<BR>
part of this experiment is that it might be able to recreate the<BR>
information of the input wave at the output end.  It would have been<BR>
nice if CNN had talked about the properties of the cesium vapor--is it<BR>
plasma-like?<BR>
<BR>
> Here's another challenge to "absolutes":<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/19/black.hole.wind/index.html<BR>
> <BR>
<BR>
This isn't a violation of anything absolute.  Since the escaping matter<BR>
hasn't falling through the event horizon, it is free to escape if it can<BR>
reach escape velocity.  Radiation emitted from matter falling closer to<BR>
the black hole provides the energy for matter at higher altitudes to<BR>
escape.  Still, the "wind" aspect of this article was interesting.<BR>
<BR>
Kristian<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:58:18 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> A not so minor anniversary today: <BR>
><BR>
> 21 years ago, a human set foot on the Moon.  <BR>
<BR>
Actually, that's *31* years ago... In 251 days it'll have been one<BR>
gigasecond. <BR>
<BR>
And from my quote file:<BR>
<BR>
1233 EST, Dec 7, 1972: last ship sails for the Moon.<BR>
<BR>
> I feel great pride that we could do such a thing, and great sadness that<BR>
> we've turned our backs on it.<BR>
<BR>
> Ad Astra, folks...ad astra.<BR>
<BR>
It pays to remember the first part... "per ardua". <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:06:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules <BR>
> to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in <BR>
> order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the flavor of <BR>
> the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
Well, to start with, The Imperium is more of an *option* for CT than an<BR>
actual *part* of it.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:08:22 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic<BR>
>> rules to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present<BR>
>> them with in order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game,<BR>
>> and the flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
> I'm very interested in this too.  One problem I had with T4 was that my<BR>
> group of players were veterans of things like Rifts and Shadowrun.  The<BR>
> Traveller setting can feel pretty dated and boring, IMHO, to a lot of<BR>
> people who are used to playing 8th Level Psionic Glitterboy Pilots.<BR>
><BR>
> I also had problems with people getting *very* angry every time they<BR>
> rolled Equestrian on the character generation charts.  This is why I think<BR>
> CT is so great for character generation.  You only get a handful of<BR>
> skills, and these tend to be relevant and useful.  I didn't have any CT<BR>
> materials at the time, though. <BR>
><BR>
> I think if you wanted to give people a feel for what Traveller is like,<BR>
> you are best off referring them to S/F they may have read, especially the<BR>
> Foundation trilogy.  <BR>
<BR>
We've discussed "Traveller"-like SF before. My money is on Poul<BR>
Anderson's "Poleseotechnic League" stories, and his "Flandry" series.<BR>
Also the Dumarest books (which I understand are back in print).<BR>
Likewise, Andre Norton's SF from the 50s, 60s and 70s fits well.<BR>
Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy has some possibly relevant stuff as<BR>
well.<BR>
<BR>
Plus a host of others.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:15:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> It's the sort of thing the Scout Service would have done during the<BR>
>> either the initial survey, or the followup visit of a survey vessel<BR>
>> after the initial visit by a Type-S or equivalent.<BR>
><BR>
> So there was an administrative cock-up/corruption/data corruption or<BR>
> something.<BR>
<BR>
It's also the sort of thing that smart colonists would set up as part<BR>
of the port facilities, as there's always the possibility of a stray<BR>
comet or the like. <BR>
<BR>
> You ever worked with a government agency?<BR>
<BR>
No, but I've had to deal with a few.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2792<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 21 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2793<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
Re: Emperor Lucan in MT<BR>
Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
RE: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
Re: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:20:19 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
>> Subject: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
>><BR>
>> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules<BR>
> to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in<BR>
> order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the flavor of<BR>
> the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
> The fastest you can get information somewhere is in a ship.<BR>
><BR>
> A ship takes at least a week to get somewhere.<BR>
><BR>
> The Imperium is a government of men, not laws, and it rules space. Planets<BR>
> rule themselves.<BR>
><BR>
> The lifeblood of the Imperium is commerce. Dont get in the way of the<BR>
> Imperium's lifeblood.<BR>
><BR>
> There is no Prime Directive. If you want to sell fusion guns and medikits to<BR>
> the natives, get in the queue. And think about what they have that you want.<BR>
<BR>
Just keep in mind that the natives aren't *stupid*. <BR>
<BR>
On second thought, nevermind. It's perfectly legitimate for the players<BR>
to learn *that* the hard way. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:38:56 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 06:17 PM 7/20/00 -0800, Leonard wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>><BR>
>> Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
>> Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
>> returned.<BR>
>><BR>
>> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
><BR>
>Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
>what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
>But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
>"curtains" of light.<BR>
><BR>
>-- <BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
Correct when facing in towards the Core or out towards the Rim...but<BR>
virtually nothing facing either the galactic north or south.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:31:09 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>A solution is to turn to a collection of rich individuals and corporations<BR>
and say 'Would you like the opportunity to serve the Imperium ?'. They spend<BR>
their cash and credit on what the Imperium needs, and in return the Imperium<BR>
passes over a bunch of Imperial bonds, with a coupon rate of 1%.<<<BR>
<BR>
I would actually be surprised if the Imperium *didn't* work this way.<BR>
<BR>
As a reference to the 3I's most notable historical model, most of the<BR>
"public" buildings in Rome were built by private citizens using their own<BR>
funds. Romans came late to the concept of budgets, so for much of the<BR>
Empire's history, governors and public officials (often unpaid!) were<BR>
expected to cover any shorfalls between what the treasury provided and what<BR>
was actually spent out of their own pockets. (On the other hand, many<BR>
governors were notorious for trying to recoup their losses by taxing<BR>
everything they could lay their hands on, but this isn't a problem in the<BR>
3I.)<BR>
<BR>
It also allows PCs to move up the ladder of patronage as they gain wealth<BR>
(and provides an excellent tactic for GMs to relieve them of the same.)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Fredericus Germanicus" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:40:34 -0400<BR>
From: "VonRammen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Emperor Lucan in MT<BR>
<BR>
Joseph J Alberti Jr <albertijjr@juno.com> inquires:<BR>
<BR>
>>Emperor Lucan has many similarities to a number of young, inexperienced,<BR>
and somewhat tyrannical Roman emperors.  All of those Roman emperors met<BR>
violent deaths at the hands of  someone or some group near to them.<BR>
Lucan's principals or lack there of must have went against the principals<BR>
of  a high percentage of the nobility and the honor of the Admirals in<BR>
the Imperial Navy.  How do you think he lasted so long?  Was the nobility<BR>
so corrupt and unprincipled that an Emperor like Lucan did not disturb<BR>
them?<<<BR>
<BR>
Given the how the original precedent of assasination was used, it does seem<BR>
unlikely that he could survive so long...although, being a homicidal<BR>
paranoid psycopath, he would be hard to sneak up on.<BR>
<BR>
I was in a state with few gaming resources as the MT timeline finally<BR>
devolved...er...upgraded to TNE, so others will have to talk about IRIS and<BR>
the judgment of Lucan's claim, but here's my go:<BR>
<BR>
<simmulated canon mode> Dulinor's assasination [attempt, but nobody was sure<BR>
of that] made it impossible for high ranking nobles in Core to consider<BR>
using it themselves as a solution. Also, many were in hiding, with an arrest<BR>
order put out for them. Finally, the Imperium was so unstable, that many<BR>
people might have felt it was better to go with a lunatic rather than change<BR>
horses again. </simmulated canon mode><BR>
<BR>
My own feeling is that they cooked the books in the Rebellion Sourcebook so<BR>
that it was clear that no single faction could win, as they had all been<BR>
artificially balanced against each other. The major drawback to Lucan's<BR>
Imperium was Lucan, ergo he was going to survive to make sure that the house<BR>
system could be implemented for Traveller :)<BR>
<BR>
(And don't get me started on Oekshos!)<BR>
<BR>
Fred "Disperse Ye Rebels" Ramen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:47:05 -0400<BR>
From: michael stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew W. Helton" wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Oops, maybe we've been on a road leading to a dead end, theoretically<BR>
> speaking:<BR>
><BR>
> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/index.html<BR>
<BR>
SNIP<BR>
<BR>
If only one new high tech toys comes out of this, I want it to FTL (Well old<BR>
light speed) communication.<BR>
Course than I could never edit on the fly, as everyone would see the typos at<BR>
my fingertips before I could<BR>
spell check them away.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:42:05 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
On 07/20/00 at 02:40 PM,  "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu> said:<BR>
<BR>
>I also had problems with people getting *very* angry every time they<BR>
>rolled Equestrian on the character generation charts.  This is why I<BR>
>think CT is so great for character generation.  You only get a handful of<BR>
>skills, and these tend to be relevant and useful.  I didn't have any CT<BR>
>materials at the time, though. <BR>
<BR>
Equestrian *is* relevant and useful!  <g> It should have been named<BR>
something with less baggage, though.  If you're on a low-tech world<BR>
being able to ride a horse-analog is a relevant and useful.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:04:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Distilled Classic Traveller<BR>
<BR>
On 07/21/00 at 08:14 AM,  "Katharine Whitchurch" <katts@globalfreeway.com.au> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com><BR>
>> Subject: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
>><BR>
>> If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules<BR>
>to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with<BR>
>in order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the<BR>
>flavor of the Imperium?<BR>
<BR>
Good start at the rules...<BR>
<BR>
>The fastest you can get information somewhere is in a ship.<BR>
<BR>
>A ship takes at least a week to get somewhere.<BR>
<BR>
...and the occupants of the ship are isolated from the universe for<BR>
the duration of the voyage.<BR>
<BR>
>The Imperium is a government of men, not laws, and it rules space.<BR>
>Planets rule themselves.<BR>
<BR>
I don't know how generally accepted this is, but IMO, the OTU<BR>
Imperium is a "weak" government.  The Imperium provides a loose<BR>
framework of legitimacy, takes care of most external security, and<BR>
encourages trade for its member systems and their local leaders.  To<BR>
me it is more like the Holy Roman Empire than the Roman Empire. <BR>
<BR>
>The lifeblood of the Imperium is commerce. Dont get in the way of the<BR>
>Imperium's lifeblood.<BR>
<BR>
>There is no Prime Directive. If you want to sell fusion guns and medikits<BR>
>to the natives, get in the queue. And think about what they have that you<BR>
>want.<BR>
<BR>
Except for "Interdicted Systems" where it's go at your own risk.<BR>
<BR>
>Ruleswise ? Dunno. I'd probably say 'It's a first generation system.<BR>
>Skills describe how well you could do a job - 1 is an amateur, 2 is OK, 3<BR>
>is good and so on. There are no character classes and stuff like that.'.<BR>
<BR>
Use FUDGE-like descriptors to describe skill levels.<BR>
<BR>
Skill   Descriptors  <BR>
  0     Mediocre     <BR>
  1     Fair<BR>
  2     Good<BR>
  3     Great<BR>
  4     Superb<BR>
  5     Awesome<BR>
  6     Legendary   <BR>
<BR>
>Also, as a GM I'd also be doing chrome during character generation. It<BR>
>isnt 2 terms in the Marines - it's 2 terms in the 106th Drop Infantry,<BR>
>homeported in Glisten (Glisten's an asteroid belt). It isnt 4 terms in<BR>
>the Merchants, it's 4 terms in General Products LiC, mostly on scheduled<BR>
>routes between Glisten and Mora.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:24:49 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
No - IIRC that a _totally_ dead fellow could be revived at CTL-16 - but as I<BR>
cannot find the refrence at this time, I will bow to your Masterful Cannon<BR>
Peter ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Peter Newman<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 5:01 AM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> IIRC In MT it was cannon that a _dead_ person could be revived at a TL16<BR>
> hospital... At one time we had 3 charactors from one player in the low<BR>
> berths... he never learned ;)<BR>
<BR>
It only takes TL 13.<BR>
<BR>
"Death of a character is not instantaneous. Diagnosis within<BR>
1d6 minutes may be used to keep a character barely alive - enough<BR>
alive, at least, to receive later treatment in TL 9+ hospital<BR>
facilities or transport in low birth.<BR>
To recover the charecter must be rediagnosed and receive<BR>
treatment in hospital facilities of tech level 13 or more.<BR>
If successful treatment is not received in the 2d6 months<BR>
indicated above, the charecter dies."<BR>
<BR>
[MT Players Manual p82]<BR>
<BR>
This task is Formidable Medical [and?] fateful with a special +1<BR>
DM for each TL over 13 and costs Cr 250,000 + Cr 150,000/month<BR>
during recovery. The recovery rate is 1 point to 1 stat per<BR>
month on a 9+ (+1 per TL over 12). When two stats reach their<BR>
original level no more healing occurs (in other words it causes<BR>
at least a permanent -1 to one physical characteristic).<BR>
<BR>
> In GT I would have no problem at all with this - at GTL 12 for an alive<BR>
but<BR>
> mortally wounded fellow or GTL13 for a not long dead fellow.<BR>
<BR>
I would make it GTL 9 for mortally wounded and GTL 10 or 11 for<BR>
not long dead as this matches the MT rules.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:33:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
<BR>
I agree with this - in some of my play tests of GT as well in some of the<BR>
traveller that I have run - i accually -gasp- saw a PC dive for cover..<BR>
<BR>
Will wonders never cease?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of David P.<BR>
Summers<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 12:25 PM<BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Armour and Weapons & GT vs T4<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>In GT I had a problem of the tremendous protection of armour being a matter<BR>
>of heroes being invulnerable or liquefied when I read the books. In play I<BR>
>tried to restrict access to military hardware. But I still wish it were a<BR>
>bit smoother with more middle.<BR>
<BR>
Combat in GT is realistically deadly.  One solution for a GM<BR>
is to not take shots at the vitals or brain and use the blow<BR>
throught rules.  Though in the end combat is more about<BR>
not getting hit rather than having a foe wear down your hitpoints,<BR>
something I prefer....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
______________________________<BR>
summers@alum.mit.edu<BR>
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in<BR>
California.)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:31:27 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
I STILL haven't gotten around to getting prints priced.  [sigh]  At last<BR>
count, I had 11 SJG, otherwise paid, or free projects for friends going.  So<BR>
much to do, so little freakin' time.......<BR>
<BR>
ONE of these days prints will be available if I can help it.<BR>
<BR>
Best,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Legate<BR>
> Legion<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 3:24 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> >Ahhhhh, my plan is working perfectly!  Bwwwaaahhhh hhhaaahhhaa<BR>
> >ahhahahahahahh!!!!!!<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     You are a very evil man, Jesse, very evil, but a good artist.<BR>
><BR>
> >Enjoy!  I don't use the G:T rules either, but there's such a<BR>
> wealth of info<BR>
> >available that I started buying G:T before I started doing work for it.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     I am, as it is just about the only way to get your artwork in a good<BR>
> hardcopy format.<BR>
><BR>
> >Best,<BR>
> >Jesse<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>     I bid you peace.<BR>
><BR>
> Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
> ICQ # 8973001<BR>
> legate@futureone.com<BR>
><BR>
> "I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
> places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
> passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:40:12 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/21/00 12:36:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> I STILL haven't gotten around to getting prints priced.  [sigh]  At last<BR>
>  count, I had 11 SJG, otherwise paid, or free projects for friends going.  <BR>
So<BR>
>  much to do, so little freakin' time.......<BR>
>  <BR>
>  ONE of these days prints will be available if I can help it.<BR>
<BR>
Do a print of the original for the Rim of Fire cover and I will gladly buy it.<BR>
Nice work indeed.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 21:46:49 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 06:17 PM 7/20/00 -0800, Leonard wrote:<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
>>> Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
>>> returned.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
>>what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
>>But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
>>"curtains" of light.<BR>
<BR>
> Correct when facing in towards the Core or out towards the Rim...<BR>
<BR>
Or spinward/trailing.<BR>
<BR>
> but virtually nothing facing either the galactic north or south.<BR>
<BR>
Just the globular clusters above/below the plane of the galaxy, and<BR>
other nearby galaxies in the local group. Lots of "fuzzy blobs".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:04:27 -0700<BR>
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Class Mobility in the Imperium (was Declining Societies)<BR>
<BR>
on 7/20/00 3:34 PM, Katharine Whitchurch at katts@globalfreeway.com.au<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> <BR>
> At that point, the social machine also gets to crank into action. That<BR>
> jumped-up Belter, who, frankly, still stinks of recycled air, gets invited<BR>
> to the Marquis' hunting lodge. Sylochai, whose utterly tasteless cola drinks<BR>
> are just everywhere these days, gets advised that the Membership Committee<BR>
> would now look favourably on his second son's application for membership to<BR>
> the Rowing Club. Amadinkin Corp is invited to tender for the wood panelling<BR>
> on the Contessa's new palace. And so on.<BR>
<BR>
All the things that make class based societies whither and die.  There must<BR>
be a way for able and intelligent (if not well heeled) individuals to move<BR>
up in status.  Otherwise, these same capable individuals become the<BR>
fomenters of revolution.  If, on OTOH, the Imperium recognizes and promotes<BR>
said individuals, it gains not only a capable minor noble, but also ties<BR>
these individuals fortunes to the ruling caste.<BR>
<BR>
Tod<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
"Everything I need to know, I learned from<BR>
killing smart people and eating their brains."<BR>
- -- <BR>
Tod Glenn<BR>
mailto:webmaster@travellercentral.com<BR>
http://www.travellercentral.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:00:29 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
You haven't even seen the real cover yet :)  (Unless of course it's streeted<BR>
and my comps aren't here yet ;)<BR>
<BR>
While there'd be legal issues printing the real cover, the teaser I posted<BR>
would be fair game, as well as any other shot on my site now or in the<BR>
future.<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for the Vote o' Confidence,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 9:40 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 7/21/00 12:36:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,<BR>
> jdegraff@pacbell.net writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > I STILL haven't gotten around to getting prints priced.  [sigh]  At last<BR>
> >  count, I had 11 SJG, otherwise paid, or free projects for<BR>
> friends going.<BR>
> So<BR>
> >  much to do, so little freakin' time.......<BR>
> ><BR>
> >  ONE of these days prints will be available if I can help it.<BR>
><BR>
> Do a print of the original for the Rim of Fire cover and I will<BR>
> gladly buy it.<BR>
> Nice work indeed.<BR>
><BR>
> ----------<BR>
> Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
> writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
> "For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
> set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:46:35 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
At 09:46 PM 7/20/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> At 06:17 PM 7/20/00 -0800, Leonard wrote:<BR>
>>>In mail you write:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>> Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
>>>> Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
>>>> returned.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
>>>what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
>>>But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
>>>"curtains" of light.<BR>
><BR>
>> Correct when facing in towards the Core or out towards the Rim...<BR>
><BR>
>Or spinward/trailing.<BR>
><BR>
>> but virtually nothing facing either the galactic north or south.<BR>
><BR>
>Just the globular clusters above/below the plane of the galaxy, and<BR>
>other nearby galaxies in the local group. Lots of "fuzzy blobs".<BR>
<BR>
But certainly no "Huge curtains of light"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 22:50:59 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I STILL haven't gotten around to getting prints priced.  [sigh]  At last<BR>
>count, I had 11 SJG, otherwise paid, or free projects for friends going.<BR>
So<BR>
>much to do, so little freakin' time.......<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You should.  Jesse, I do know that your art would sell here in Phoenix.<BR>
<BR>
>ONE of these days prints will be available if I can help it.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Get to it Jesse.  I know I would pay for it.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:10:41 -0600<BR>
From: "Joseph Kimball" <jekimball@prodigy.net><BR>
Subject: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
A good book to use as reference material for this is called "Project Icarus"<BR>
written as part of an MIT Studend Project in Systems Engineering.  Copyright<BR>
is 1968, and the second printing (of which I have a copy) is 1979.  ISBN<BR>
0-262-63068-0.  I will give a few samples below (five sentences with only<BR>
one a quote, from a 152 page book seems well within reasonable use under<BR>
copyright laws to me).<BR>
<BR>
page 1:  "...Apollo asteroids are relatively small, typically a mile in<BR>
diameter..."<BR>
page 13:  The time frame of the project (trying to deal with the asteroid in<BR>
about one year's time) made a soft landing of equipment/people impossible<BR>
with 1968 technology.  Thus for this project the only option was explosives.<BR>
pp 14-15:  Due to the limitations of the project, a total of 6 Saturn V<BR>
rockets was assumed to be available for the mission.<BR>
page 22:  Each interceptor carries a 100Mt bomb, and is radar-fused to<BR>
explode about 100 feet from the surface of the asteroid.<BR>
page 152:  The numbers come out to a good probability of at least an 86%<BR>
reduction in damage to the Earth by doing this project, with a 71% chance of<BR>
deflecting the asteroid completely.<BR>
<BR>
This book has lots of (solved) equations for this situation; a bunch of<BR>
graphs; useful info on the Saturn rocket; PERT charts; hardware diagrams,<BR>
electrical diagrams, and flowcharts; and other good info.  In short, I<BR>
recommend this book if you tend towards the gear-headed end of the scale,<BR>
especially if you are posing this kind of problem to your players.<BR>
- - Joseph<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:15:15 +1000<BR>
From: Robert Houghton <rhoughto@one.net.au><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock...<BR>
<BR>
I think we have been going about this all wrong<BR>
...If it's CT you call the IN and they show up with a (small) fleet fix<BR>
it...low power meson fire on one side should have the same effect as a<BR>
series of nukes and probably more controlable...(or use beam<BR>
lasers/particle beams/fusion guns depending on your canon)<BR>
...if it's MT find out who aimed it at your planet then kill them *then*<BR>
fix the problem<BR>
...If it's TNE...ummmm...did anyone see it coming?...<BR>
<BR>
Other Rob<BR>
<BR>
Nick Bradbeer wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > > But not, I'd imagine, very fast.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Actually *quite* fast since the heating is done via *x-rays*, which<BR>
> > tend to be absorbed *below* the surface, leading to *explosive*<BR>
> > vaporization of subsurface materials, which will fling off the stuff<BR>
> > above them at high speed.<BR>
><BR>
> Ahah...that makes sense. Cheers, Leonard.<BR>
><BR>
> Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:50:01 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
Thankyou for your input, though would it be said that if the case were at<BR>
the other extreme and the world law level were low, that the law level in<BR>
the Star port could also be low, at the discretion of the Star Port<BR>
Commander? It seems to me then there are no limits to the world law level,<BR>
whereas the law level in a Star Port require a certain amount of discretion.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
Michael.Scanlon@BTinternet.com<BR>
ICQ#27333894<BR>
<BR>
"Nothing that God in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for...."<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 12:51 AM<BR>
Subject: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Michael Scanlon wrote:<BR>
> ><BR>
><BR>
> > OK, this is something I was allways puzzled about, the law level of a<BR>
world.<BR>
> > >From reading the above I presume the law level for the type of world,<BR>
> > Stephen is describing, has an high law level.<BR>
> > If this is true then what would be the law level in the confines of the<BR>
> > Imperialy owned Starport?<BR>
><BR>
> Likely it would also be high, but of a different sort. Starport Law<BR>
> level is set by the Port Commander, and is usually quite high,<BR>
> particularly as regards weapons.<BR>
><BR>
> However, the kinds of laws that Stephen is describing aren't really<BR>
> covered by the classic Traveller Law Level which _simply_ equates to<BR>
> 'how big of a gun can I carry?'<BR>
><BR>
> Implied in this definition of 'Law' and much of canon, is that the<BR>
> Imperium is proably really lax concerning a lot of stuff we would<BR>
> consider illegal.<BR>
><BR>
> The Imperium is a mercantile Empire; interfering with making money is<BR>
> the big no-no, so theft, extortion, confidence scams, plus the basic<BR>
> life and limb stuff of assault, murder, kidnapping, DUI, etc are what<BR>
> are regulated.<BR>
><BR>
> Things which paying customers do in the course of normal business, in<BR>
> the confines of the business establishment doesn't matter to the<BR>
> Imperium, so it's likely that starports are not at all concerned about<BR>
> them.<BR>
><BR>
> Things like prostitution, gambling, drinking, drugs, heresy, and all the<BR>
> stuff the uptights across the extrality line bemoan are really of no<BR>
> concern to the Imperium, so long as they don't scare the tourists and<BR>
> run off the merchants. Then it breaks the #1 Law 'Don't interfere with<BR>
> the cash flow', and the PC intervenes.<BR>
><BR>
> Per GT:Starports, the PC has wide and well-nigh absolute authority over<BR>
> a Starport, but in the main they know thir job is to keep the wheels of<BR>
> commerce greased.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Bruce Johnson<BR>
> University of Arizona<BR>
> College of Pharmacy<BR>
> Information Technology Group<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2793<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2794</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 21 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2794<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Corrected Trav Shorts Announcement<BR>
Re: Matter Transport (was Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy)<BR>
Re:  Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: The Imperium's open frontier<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:17:00 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
At 12:06 AM 7/21/00, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > If you were to distill Classic Traveller down to a set of very basic rules<BR>
> > to help introduce someone to the game, what would you present them with in<BR>
> > order to give them a basic feel to the rules of the game, and the <BR>
> flavor of<BR>
> > the Imperium?<BR>
><BR>
>Well, to start with, The Imperium is more of an *option* for CT than an<BR>
>actual *part* of it.<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
<BR>
         Do Tell.<BR>
<BR>
         --Michel<BR>
         (The TNEC Guy)<BR>
<BR>
         http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:51:30 +0100<BR>
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Corrected Trav Shorts Announcement<BR>
<BR>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFF30A.03F6ED40<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
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<BR>
I've just been informed I missed out the F&F address, so here's a =<BR>
repeat:<BR>
<BR>
The Fantasy & Fiction Network, for which I am Creative Director (gawd =<BR>
help<BR>
them) is about to move onto a dedicated server. When this happens -<BR>
literally any day now - there will be a number of new features =<BR>
appearing.<BR>
Among them is Traveller short fiction.<BR>
<BR>
The URL is www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR>
<BR>
This is the fiction initially collected for the J Andrew Keith Memorial<BR>
collection. Sadly that project is dead in the water due to reasons I =<BR>
can't<BR>
discuss. (and no, I'm not even going to say WHY I can't discuss them).<BR>
<BR>
However, Marc has very kindly granted me permission to publish the<BR>
collection on the F&F site. The first four tales will appear in the next =<BR>
few<BR>
days - assuming no server glitches (thereby hangs a techie tale, and =<BR>
very<BR>
nearly a techie...!). These tales will be:<BR>
<BR>
Against The Coming of Night - (Long Night Era)<BR>
High Guard - (Julian War Era)<BR>
An Expendable Operative - (Post Julian War Era)<BR>
Treason - (Rebellion Era)<BR>
<BR>
Others will follow in due course. Some are by Traveller authors, others =<BR>
by<BR>
TML members... all of the stories are damn good. The server change is =<BR>
happening right now, so expect these stories to appear any day....<BR>
<BR>
Also on a publishing note; Behind the Throne is now available from the<BR>
publisher (www.highbridgepress.com) or from Amazon, Barnes & Noble and<BR>
presumably Borders. ISBN is 0-9678832-0-2, author Martin J Dougherty.<BR>
<BR>
I also have a Napoleonic adventure coming out this month in ebook format<BR>
from www.23house.com<BR>
<BR>
I've just signed deals for the print novel The Eye of Glory, which =<BR>
should be<BR>
out by Christmas, and another ebook entitled In Glory Die, available =<BR>
early<BR>
next year from The Fiction Works www.fictionworks.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I'm still open to Traveller fiction for the F&F website - talk to me =<BR>
about<BR>
submissions first. They have to be okayed by Marc but they get filtered<BR>
through me first.<BR>
<BR>
And anyone wanting to talk about book or ebook publishing... ask. I =<BR>
rarely<BR>
bite. Honest.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFF30A.03F6ED40<BR>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<BR>
<BR>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =<BR>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BR>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR><BR>
</HEAD><BR>
<BR>
<DIV>I've just been informed I missed out =<BR>
the F&amp;F=20<BR>
address, so here's a repeat:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV>The Fantasy &amp; Fiction Network, for which I am Creative Director =<BR>
(gawd=20<BR>
help<BR>
them) is about to move onto a dedicated server. When this =happens=20- -<BR>
literally any day now - there will be a number of new features=20appearing.<BR>
Among them is Traveller short fiction.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The URL is <A=20href=3D"http://www.fiction-fantasy.net">www.fiction-fantasy.net<BR>
<B=R>This is=20the fiction initially collected for the J Andrew Keith =Memorial<BR>
collection.=20Sadly that project is dead in the water due to reasons I =can't<BR>
discuss. (and=20no, I'm not even going to say WHY I can't discuss them).<BR>
<BR>
However, =Marc=20has very kindly granted me permission to publish the<BR>
collection on =the=20F&amp;F site. The first four tales will appear in the next few<BR>
days - =assuming no server glitches (thereby hangs a techie tale, and =very<BR>
nearly a=20techie...!). These tales will be:<BR>
<BR>
Against The Coming of Night - =(Long=20Night Era)<BR>
High Guard - (Julian War Era)<BR>
An Expendable Operative - =(Post=20Julian War Era)<BR>
Treason - (Rebellion Era)<BR>
<BR>
Others will follow =in due=20course. Some are by Traveller authors, others by<BR>
TML members... all = of the=20 stories are damn good. The server change is happening right now, so = expect these=20stories to appear any day....<BR>
<BR>
Also on a publishing note; Behind =the=20Throne is now available from the<BR>
publisher (<A=20href=3D"http://www.highbridgepress.com">www.highbridgepress.com) or =from=20Amazon, Barnes &amp; Noble and<BR>
presumably Borders. ISBN is =0-9678832-0-2,=20author Martin J Dougherty.<BR>
<BR>
I also have a Napoleonic adventure =coming out=20this month in ebook format<BR>
from <A=20href=3D"http://www.23house.com">www.23house.com<BR>
<BR>
I've just =signed deals=20for the print novel The Eye of Glory, which should be<BR>
out by =Christmas, and=20another ebook entitled In Glory Die, available early<BR>
next year from =The=20Fiction Works <A=20href=3D"http://www.fictionworks.com">www.fictionworks.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
=I'm still=20open to Traveller fiction for the F&amp;F website - talk to me=20about<BR>
submissions first. They have to be okayed by Marc but they get=20filtered<BR>
through me first.<BR>
<BR>
And anyone wanting to talk about =book or=20ebook publishing... ask. I rarely<BR>
bite.=20Honest.<BR>
<BR>
Regards<BR>
MJD<BR>
<BR>
</DIV><BR>
<BR>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BFF30A.03F6ED40--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:54:51 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Matter Transport (was Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> > Tech Level 18-19 features matter transport [transporters]<BR>
<BR>
> Interestingly, according to "Book 3: Worlds and Adventures," <BR>
> "matter transport" becomes available shockingly early, at only<BR>
> Tech Level 16.  I vaguely recall that matter transportation was<BR>
> discussed in detail in "Adventure 12: Secret of the Ancients," <BR>
> but since I no longer (alas!) have a copy of that book, I can't<BR>
> say whether the development of matter transportation at Tech <BR>
> Level 16 has been "de-canonized."  <BR>
<BR>
Ancient matter transportation uses more sophisticated techniques<BR>
than experimental human efforts do.<BR>
<BR>
In MT [Ref's Companion p29] it states that "_Experimental_<BR>
Matter Transport (Raw Materials Only)" is TL 16. I would<BR>
suggest that this means that you can put a kilogram of<BR>
iron in one booth of a two booth transporter system (that<BR>
has a multi tetra watt power line running between them) and<BR>
get a kilogram of iron out the other end if the booth<BR>
operator makes his skill roll. [1] IMTU this is limited to non <BR>
radioactive items only, no uranium, plutonium, etc. On a mishap <BR>
you get an anti matter explosion. :)<BR>
<BR>
At TL 17 you get "Experimental Matter Transport (Matter<BR>
transmutation)" and can put in iron and get out oxygen.<BR>
And/or you might be able to loose the multi tetrawatt power<BR>
line between the booths. <BR>
<BR>
At TL 18 you get "Experimental Matter Transport (Portal<BR>
Technology). This is experimental use of what the Ancient<BR>
perfect.<BR>
<BR>
At TL 19 you have "Portal Technology, Regional Range"<BR>
and can step between two portals (booths) that are up to<BR>
regional (500 km) apart.<BR>
<BR>
At Tl 20 you have "Crude Energy Sink and Continental<BR>
Range". To me this implies that at TL 19 (without the<BR>
energy sink) your range is limited by heat issues (just<BR>
as it is for a psionic teleporter). I would also note<BR>
that IMTU TL 20 is the first TL to have a 'pattern <BR>
buffer' as in Star Trek. If you step into a TL 18 or<BR>
19 portal and the operator blows his roll you are gone<BR>
forever. At TL 20 the operator might be able to<BR>
'stabilize the pattern buffer' and reintegrate you<BR>
on an immediate fateful retry at +1 Diff.<BR>
<BR>
At TL 21 you have "Starship Sized Portals".<BR>
<BR>
CT ADV. 12 put Ancient Portal Technology at TL 25 IIRC.<BR>
<BR>
[1] To me experimental use means that a skill roll, possibly<BR>
a Difficult or harder skill roll, is required for _every_ use <BR>
of the skill, nothing is routine.<BR>
<BR>
> In my opinion, however,<BR>
> convenient "receiverless" matter transportation ("Star Trek's" <BR>
> transporters) should *not* be available of Tech Level 16!  I'd<BR>
> also push "Star Trek's" replicators up into technologically<BR>
> inaccessible territory, if only because of their sweeping (and<BR>
> probably incomprehensible) effects upon economics.  <BR>
<BR>
They are at least TL 17, Next Gen's sophisticated replicators<BR>
might be TL 18. As for the economic impact all you need to<BR>
do is figure out what gold/whatever you are making costs<BR>
per gram and rig the energy costs required for your matter<BR>
transmutation so that it costs more than that in energy costs<BR>
plus the capital cost of your machine.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:58:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re:  Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
"Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Note that a single Tigress could pull this thing almost 500,000km off course<BR>
> in six months or, if it were only a rocky asteroid [density 3], pull it the<BR>
> 20,000km others have bandied about in as little as three weeks!<BR>
<BR>
Is the internal structural integrity of a Tigress (or any<BR>
Traveller ship) really up to pushing on a rock at full thrust? <BR>
Even if you accelerate slowly isn't this apt to be bad for your <BR>
ship, which is designed to move itself and is unlikely to include <BR>
a grapple that can handle an asteroid.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 14:04:30 +0200 (METDST)<BR>
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk><BR>
Subject: Re: The Imperium's open frontier<BR>
<BR>
Ian Whitchurch writes:<BR>
<BR>
>The Imperium does have an open frontier.<BR>
><BR>
>It's a small one, and arguably maintained as open by diplomatic pressure,<BR>
>but District 268/5 Sisters subsectors on the Rimward side of the Spinward<BR>
>Marches are as close as it gets.<BR>
<BR>
That was what was implied by _Leviathan_ which featured one almost completly<BR>
unexplored subsector just rimward of District 268, a part of the socalled<BR>
Outrim Void. Unfortunately later development of the Imperium setting revealed<BR>
that this area had been a buffer zone between the Imperium and the Hierate's<BR>
Trans-rift possessions for at least five centuries. You may be able to<BR>
believe in an area like that remaining unexplored for five centuries, but I<BR>
sure can't (Which is also why I refuse to believe that Andor and Candory<BR>
wasn't discovered until 802 (or that Ruie was ever a lost colony)).<BR>
 <BR>
>There are even completely uncolonised worlds.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there are uncolonized worlds inside the Imperium too.<BR>
 <BR>
>The only rider is that if you want that area to be lawless and wild, treat<BR>
>the rumour of the source of Black Globe generators being from an Ancients<BR>
>cache on Candor or Andory as a rumour.<BR>
<BR>
It is a rumor. The black globes were found on one of the ancients sites in<BR>
Regina subsector (I can't offhand remember which one). <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
      Hans Rancke<BR>
University of Copenhagen<BR>
     rancke@diku.dk<BR>
- ------------<BR>
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent<BR>
         events based on the individual situation."<BR>
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 05:02:11 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 09:46 PM 7/20/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>In mail you write:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> At 06:17 PM 7/20/00 -0800, Leonard wrote:<BR>
>>>>In mail you write:<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>> Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
>>>>> Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
>>>>> returned.<BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
>>>>what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
>>>>But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
>>>>"curtains" of light.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Correct when facing in towards the Core or out towards the Rim...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Or spinward/trailing.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> but virtually nothing facing either the galactic north or south.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Just the globular clusters above/below the plane of the galaxy, and<BR>
>>other nearby galaxies in the local group. Lots of "fuzzy blobs".<BR>
><BR>
> But certainly no "Huge curtains of light"<BR>
<BR>
In the episode that had the "lightless void", *no* stars were visible<BR>
in the void. Neither was anything else until they got near the far side<BR>
and Kobol's star "flared up" to guide them<BR>
<BR>
The *only* real astronomical situation that fits is a dark nebula. a<BR>
rift between arms *doesn't* because there are still *lots* of stars<BR>
visible.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:08:03 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> > I would suggest explaining it away by stating that, according<BR>
> > to Colonial astronomers, galactic clusters are separate galaxies<BR>
> > since they have a common center of rotation. Whenever you hear <BR>
> > 'galaxy' replace it with 'galactic cluster'.<BR>
> <BR>
> Slight problem. "galactic cluster" refers to clusters of *galaxies*.<BR>
> I think you mean "steallar cluster" or "globular cluster" (though<BR>
> globular clusters aren't likely to be inhabitable).<BR>
<BR>
Yes, my bad, I meant stellar cluster or globular cluster.<BR>
As far as globular clusters being uninhabitable it is<BR>
always nice to have a reason besides Captain Ahab, er<BR>
Adama's, obsession with Earth to explain why they never<BR>
stopped (of course with those darn Cylon they have a fairly<BR>
good reason).<BR>
 <BR>
> >> I was never to sure if they were in the same Solar system or not....  It's<BR>
> >> almost as if the Galactica was near the Core, and in a very complex mess of<BR>
> >> Suns orbiting Suns, with planets orbiting planets.  I wouldn't even want to<BR>
> >> think about what a mess that would create...<BR>
<BR>
> > No. BSG canon establishes that the colonies are in one system.<BR>
> > The voice over from the premiere two parter states that after<BR>
> > the Cylons destroyed the Colonies "And The Word Went Forth To<BR>
> > Every Outpost Of Human Existence. In All Two Hundred And Twenty Ships <BR>
> > Representing Every Colony, Color And Creed In _The_ Star System." <BR>
> >  _The is singular hence the colonies are in<BR>
> > one star system. This conclusion is also supported by the fact<BR>
> > that the Galactica returned to "the colonies" not to "a Colony"<BR>
> > hence the Colonies must be close together.<BR>
> <BR>
> Yes, but "star system" can easily refer to a stellar cluster,<BR>
> especially a close grouping of stars. <BR>
<BR>
I agree that the colonies could be a trinary or quaternary<BR>
system but I disagree that it could be a stellar cluster.<BR>
<BR>
> The series got *so* much astronomical stuff *horribly* wrong that<BR>
> throwing away *any* bit of it really isn't a big deal. Especially if<BR>
> doing so makes things make more sense.<BR>
<BR>
That is quite true but given that the Galactica returns to<BR>
'the colonies' not to 'a colony' the colonies have to be<BR>
quite close together, at least at the Galactica's top<BR>
speed. YMMV and I certainly don't want to get into a<BR>
canon argument over something as riddled with inconstancies<BR>
'as BSG.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:17:54 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage (was Ditzie etc)<BR>
<BR>
"J-Man" <j-man@iname.com> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> That is just plain crazy.  I know many adults who aren't "with it" enough to<BR>
> be getting married.  I doubt ANY 12 year old girl in the USA has enough<BR>
> wisdom/smarts to be even thinking of marriage let alone trying it.<BR>
<BR>
[Disclaimer: I do not believe _any_ of what I am say I below.<BR>
I am trying to describe an attitude not agree with it.}<BR>
<BR>
Think more like a 17th century Puritan. :)<BR>
<BR>
Wisdom/smarts has nothing to do with it. Remember that daughters<BR>
are the chattel of the father, the younger he can marry them off<BR>
the sooner he can stop paying for her. Besides the Bible clearly<BR>
says that the man is the master of the woman, the daughter does<BR>
not need wisdom or smarts only obedience to her lawful husband.<BR>
<BR>
Moreover anyone old enough to get pregnant (Yes I know some nine <BR>
year olds can get pregnant now but in the 17th century mean age<BR>
of first menarche was about 15 or 16) _has_ to be old enough<BR>
to get married or she might end up with a bastard child which<BR>
would be a 'scarlet letter' shameing the whole family for generations. <BR>
Far better a 'blunderbuss wedding' than a bastard. If pregnant <BR>
twelve year olds can not be married off then the family has to<BR>
send her away or move away themselves (or murder her....) <BR>
<BR>
> - ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
> > In the Great State of Massachusetts, the allowable age for marriage, with<BR>
> > parental consent is 14 for boys, *12* for girls.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:35:50 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
<BR>
The canon setting requires a hand wave to explain why <BR>
asteroids are not moved _into_ collision courses with<BR>
planets, most/all such hand waves will make it difficult<BR>
to move asteroids _out_ of collision courses with planets.<BR>
<BR>
Handwave on maximum overdrive:<BR>
<BR>
When Grandfather left the Pocket universe last time and<BR>
started poking around the cosmos introducing the coyns and<BR>
revitalizing the Droyne he altered the DNA of every member<BR>
of all the (future) major Races (whose existence he knew<BR>
of through Precognition). Therefore no member of a 'Major'<BR>
race (including some 'minor' races such as the Aslan and<BR>
some minor human races) can even think of crashing an asteroid<BR>
into a planet. Grandfather put up a self replicating psionic meme<BR>
in the DNA of all those races to insure that they can not even<BR>
conceive of doing so. Thus he helps protect the Droyne from<BR>
being killed off by asteroid bombardments.<BR>
<BR>
Any time a character who belongs to any of those races asks<BR>
about doing this have them make an Impossible Physics and Int<BR>
roll first. If it fails they don't think of it. If it succeeds<BR>
they think of it and (wrongly) conclude it is impossible. On<BR>
an exceptional success [1] they can try it. Unless the charecter is on<BR>
a one person ship the other crew members have to make the same<BR>
Impossible Physics and Int roll or they will stop him.<BR>
<BR>
members of minor races whose DNA was not altered by Grandfather<BR>
are free to drop near C rocks on planets. The Brin (a DGP race<BR>
of violent xenophobes) [2] canonically have used asteroid bombardment <BR>
to kill all the aliens they could. Thus the Brin must not have<BR>
received this DNA<BR>
<BR>
[1] An exceptional success on an Impossible Task would require<BR>
rolling a 21 on 2d6, given that the maximum possible DM is +8<BR>
this can not be done unless the task is done cautiously and is<BR>
reduced to Formidable.<BR>
<BR>
[2] I wonder if DGP's the Brin are modeled after author David<BR>
Brin's Brothers of the Night, from his Uplift universe, another<BR>
race of violent xenophobes.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:44:50 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> > The local astronomy community must be strapped for equipment to miss<BR>
> > this one if the local TL is Early-Average Stellar or so. 6-12 months is<BR>
> > very little warning.<BR>
<BR>
> That size of body was being detected at multi-AU ranges with gear that<BR>
> is now considered only suitable for amateurs...<BR>
> With currently available gear, a sky watch that'd detect that years<BR>
> away would cost only a few million, and that's assuming you wanted to<BR>
> complete the survey in a matter of months. <BR>
> With gear in *space*, and at higher TLs, it's cost only a few thousand.<BR>
> It's the sort of thing the Scout Service would have done during the<BR>
> either the initial survey, or the followup visit of a survey vessel<BR>
> after the initial visit by a Type-S or equivalent.<BR>
<BR>
Then the asteroid has to be the occur in a system that does<BR>
not have this sort of gear and which is not regularly<BR>
surveyed by the Scouts. Thus it should occur in a low tech<BR>
non Imperial system. <BR>
<BR>
This is good because it will make for a much better _adventure_<BR>
if the PC's have the only ship in the system that can do anything<BR>
about it. The PC's should know that if they fail the population<BR>
is toast. If they fail you can let the population be toasted<BR>
or have a Tigress or AHL 'misjump' into the system when it is too <BR>
late for the players Far Trader to stop the rock but while a<BR>
ship that big still can. In a sufficiently dark Traveller<BR>
universe you can even have the Asteroid have been aimed at<BR>
the planet by the Imperium so that they can step in at the last<BR>
moment and save the day. This will make the population more<BR>
likely to become a client state. The more the PC's say things<BR>
like "How could this asteroid have been missed?"  the higher<BR>
on the spooks terminate with extreme prejudice list they will<BR>
rise.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:48:07 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: "John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
> We've discussed "Traveller"-like SF before. My money is on Poul<BR>
> Anderson's "Poleseotechnic League" stories, and his "Flandry" series.<BR>
> Also the Dumarest books (which I understand are back in print).<BR>
> Likewise, Andre Norton's SF from the 50s, 60s and 70s fits well.<BR>
> Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy has some possibly relevant stuff as<BR>
> well.<BR>
<BR>
I'd say that H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" paints a pretty good<BR>
picture of what life might have been like during the Long Night,<BR>
and much of the technology portrayed in that book "feels Travellerish."<BR>
<BR>
                                                            - J. Raynor<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:47:47 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
GM Note: I am not intending to continue posting to the TML. I will <BR>
discontinue posts following this message. <BR>
<BR>
Players please respond using the GMTraveller@aol.com address. <BR>
<BR>
Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
Date: 255-1120<BR>
<BR>
The reference for this briefing is Classic Traveller Alien Module 8 - <BR>
Darrians, Secret of the Star Trigger, copyright 1987 by Game Designers <BR>
Workshop. <BR>
<BR>
The Darrians are a minor human race native to the Darrian subsector of the <BR>
Spinward Marches. They are a exceedingly beautiful race with exotic looks <BR>
compared to the Imperial norm. They have elongated if not pointed ears, elfin <BR>
in appearance, golden skin color with a light hair color. They were contacted <BR>
during the earliest expansion of the Solomani (Terrans) into the Spinward <BR>
Marches by a trading fleet sponsored by native Turkish traders from Terra. <BR>
The Turkish Terrans were absorbed into the then primitive Darrian culture <BR>
spurring it on to rapid technological development. The Darrians achieved <BR>
technology level 16 on the Imperial scale, only to face disaster when an <BR>
experiment involving research on their homeworld's sun backfired, retarding <BR>
their technology for a number of years. <BR>
<BR>
The "Maghiz" is the name given the disaster that nearly destroyed Darrian <BR>
society. Over 900 years before the founding of the Third Imperium, Darrian <BR>
technology reached TL 16 and was entering in to TL 17. The Darrians has fully <BR>
settled their cluster of worlds now recognized as the Darrian subsector <BR>
including the Entrope system. They began research into the construction of <BR>
stars, using their own primary system's star as the main test subject. Their <BR>
experiments on solar flares caused a series electromagnetic pulses of <BR>
unimaginable power. Physical damage to the homeworld occurred too from the <BR>
solar flares scorching the planet's surface. All electronic components on <BR>
worlds within 3 parsecs of the Darrian system were destroyed from the <BR>
ever-expanding pulse waves. Out to 5 parsecs the pulses destroyed large <BR>
percentages of electronics as they expanded at the speed of light from the <BR>
central homeworld. This disaster was a defining moment for the Darrians. It <BR>
threw their culture into a Dark Age as the survivors struggled to survive <BR>
without their high technology and rebuild their cities and worlds. <BR>
<BR>
By the time the Darrians collectively recovered from the near culturally <BR>
fatal disaster, the surrounding space had changed. The Sword Worlds had been <BR>
discovered by yet a second wave of Terran colonists, this time Northern <BR>
Europeans with a decidedly Nordic heritage. The Zhodani were also expanding <BR>
rimward from their empire. Vargr traders were probing deeply into what would <BR>
become the Spinward Marches. Suddenly, their space was crowed, humans were <BR>
everywhere. The Darrians discovered during this time that they had been under <BR>
covert observation by the Zhodani for a long time during their climb back to <BR>
an interstellar culture. This secret infiltration and observation insulted <BR>
and alienated the Darrians from Zhodani setting the stage for their modern <BR>
distrust and contempt for the nation of telepaths. <BR>
<BR>
The Darrians three primary "hub worlds" are Darrian, Mire, and Entrope. The <BR>
cultural capital of the Darrian Confederation is their racial homeworld of <BR>
Darrian. Politically Mire is the capital of the subsector. Entrope is the <BR>
"lost brother." Colonized early on, captured by the Sword Worlds and forced <BR>
to suffer tremendous humiliation under their subjugation, the trauma of <BR>
Entrope has dominated Darrian popular culture for generations. <BR>
<BR>
[GM note: I am proceeding under the assumption that the ethnic Darrians of <BR>
Entrope are similar in demeanor as displaced or subjugated peoples of our <BR>
Earth today. I am looking to the Palestinians, Native South Africans and <BR>
Native Americans as the cultural role models for this group collectively.]<BR>
<BR>
The Sword Worlders first captured Entrope and its surrounding cluster in 593 <BR>
(Imperial Calendar) during the First Frontier War. Since then through more <BR>
frontier wars, the Sword Worlds retained control of the Entropic Cluster. In <BR>
the final year of the Fifth Frontier War, the Darrian fleet liberated Entrope <BR>
forcing the withdrawal of the Sword Worlds from the cluster after over 500 <BR>
years of colonial rule. <BR>
<BR>
[GM note: I am using the European conquest of Imperial China and India as the <BR>
models for the social dynamics of Entrope during the Sword World occupation.] <BR>
<BR>
The Fifth Frontier War was probably a preemptive strike by the Zhodani into <BR>
an increasingly prosperous Third Imperium. Whatever the reasons for the <BR>
Outworld Coalition of the Zhodani and their Vargr and Sword World allies, it <BR>
cost the Sword Worlders the Entropic Cluster. Facing defeat at the hands of <BR>
Imperial fleets on their common border; the Sword World commanders were <BR>
forced to transfer units from the Entropic Cluster to more pressing combat <BR>
fronts. That move set the stage for the liberation of Entrope and the entire <BR>
cluster. <BR>
<BR>
Like their Sword World antagonists, the Darrians maintain two fleets for <BR>
their interstellar navy. Both governments maintain two primarily defensive <BR>
fleets that face each other across their common border. For the Sword Worlds, <BR>
this fleet is based from their Narsil system (sector grid 0927). The Darrians <BR>
base their home defense fleet in the Spume system (sector grid 0727). Through <BR>
necessity both navies must maintain Jump-2 capable warships. Although the <BR>
Darrians enjoy a technology advantage, they have traditionally dedicated <BR>
fewer resources to maintaining their military services even in the threat of <BR>
attack by the Sword Worlds. In addition to the defense fleets, both the <BR>
Darrians and the Sword Worlds maintain an additional fleet. For the Sword <BR>
Worlders the second fleet focused historically on the Third Imperium as <BR>
future opponents. The Darrians see the Zhodani as their greatest threat <BR>
besides the Sword Worlds and have traditionally oriented their second fleet <BR>
to a defense from Zhodani invasion. <BR>
<BR>
[GM note: An established Traveller military axiom is that each indicated <BR>
military bases on the sector map identifies the location of a space navy <BR>
squadron. This being the case, we will assume that the Darrians have five <BR>
space squadrons, the Sword Worlds ten (I am not counting the Border Worlds' <BR>
bases for Sword Worlds' squadrons.) Tentatively, we will further assume for <BR>
current planning purposes that the Spume and Nosea squadrons are dedicated to <BR>
the Sword Worlds' front, and the Llama, Mire and Laberv squadrons to the <BR>
Zhodani front. We will further assume that the Zhodani oriented defense fleet <BR>
provides the garrisoning of the Entrope system. Squadrons in Traveller are <BR>
autonomous, providing for their own support through their home naval base. <BR>
They are generally self-refueling although there are tanker squadrons <BR>
identified the sizes of the Darrian and Sword World fleets make their use <BR>
highly unlikely. In the Darrian source book earlier cited, it references the <BR>
Darrian Navy having two TL 16 squadrons, which it protects due to the ships <BR>
being hard to maintain. We will assume that these two squadrons are the <BR>
Darrian Navy's cadre for its battle squadrons, so I am assigning the Darrian <BR>
Navy 2 battle squadrons (based at Spume and Nosea), and 3 cruiser squadrons <BR>
(based at Laberv, Llama, and Mire). Traveller naval doctrine also alludes to <BR>
the squadrons consisting of a dozen or fewer capital starships with a similar <BR>
number of escorts and fighter protection. <BR>
<BR>
The Army: I have a tendency to place high importance on high population <BR>
worlds in Traveller as being hub worlds for commerce and defense. To me, it <BR>
is logical to assume that the Imperial Army formations will be recruited and <BR>
supported from local high population hub worlds dominating smaller local <BR>
clusters. This being the case, the Darrian Army will be dominated by troops <BR>
from Darrian and Mire (and now Entrope). Troopers recruited from lower <BR>
population worlds will be integrated either as individuals (greater career <BR>
potential) or as units (especially in the case of Aslan) into the military <BR>
structure of the Darrian/Mire organization. As such, the Darrian Army will <BR>
reflect cultural attributes of these two hub worlds' environments. Both <BR>
worlds have small sizes with standard atmospheres and low ocean percentages. <BR>
To me this would be de-emphasizing protected forces, high emphasis of <BR>
air-mobile ground forces (little naval transport, relatively light gravity). <BR>
Granted, by their colonial nature there will be protected forces (vacuum or <BR>
hostile environment capable). But the "cultural" and doctrinal orientation, <BR>
overall feel of the Darrian Army will reflect their hub world environments. <BR>
The Darrians appear to love high technology. I would further assume that <BR>
because of this their air forces and vehicle-equipped forces would be <BR>
electronically sophisticated. I am using Desert Storm's miss-match of <BR>
technology for the working model of planning simulations of combat between <BR>
Darrian Army and Sword Worlds ground forces.]<BR>
<BR>
Entrope presents a unique challenge to the Darrian Army and Navy. The <BR>
Darrians must master projected force strength to effectively garrison the <BR>
Entropic Cluster. I am proceeding under two assumptions. <BR>
<BR>
1st: The Darrian military, like our militaries today, the Darrians are <BR>
equipped and trained based on past wars' results. Thus the Darrians are <BR>
equipped and trained for defensive wars. Entrope will lack the infrastructure <BR>
for a defensive war fought in the Darrian mode (high technology emphasis). <BR>
Remembering though, that they have had 10 years to correct this. (Again - the <BR>
model for this is our (meaning western allies) current experiences in the <BR>
Balkans and Middle East.) The training I am speaking of here is the basic <BR>
level training for the use of their equipment by their enlisted forces. <BR>
Tactical training of course is overseen by their officer cadre and is based <BR>
on local conditions but retaining the defensive orientation. The Darrians do <BR>
not have a space marine force like the Imperium. They do have what they call <BR>
"Special Arm" which deals with the use of high technology (Read: Star Trigger <BR>
- - stellar flare detonation device). <BR>
<BR>
2nd: Entrope's history. Originally colonized by the Darrians as a very <BR>
successful colony becoming a high population world apparently very fast - <BR>
meaning it would have had developed splinter cultures off the Darrian central <BR>
culture. Invaded by militaristic Sword Worlders and occupied for 500+ years <BR>
as a vassal state. Liberated by a popular revolt only 10 years ago. Extremely <BR>
over populated at 70+ billion crowded onto a small size 3 world, with a very <BR>
thin atmosphere enjoying a common technology level of 12 -- probably the only <BR>
thing saving them from social implosion. But no starport so to speak -- I <BR>
assume due to design of the Sword Worlders (possibly fearing a eventual <BR>
revolt).  <BR>
<BR>
I would think modern day Russia and China would be a excellent historical <BR>
models for what life on Entrope is like. Potential high technology wallowing <BR>
in retarded socially developed societies. <BR>
<BR>
There will be a similar Sword World Briefing forthcoming. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2794<BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 21 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2795<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
Re: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
Thanks to TML<BR>
Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
Re: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
RE: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Matter Transport (was Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy)<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
UPP lists, including TL mods (physical)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:00:46 EDT<BR>
From: JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 7/21/00 1:05:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>
jdegraff@pacbell.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
> You haven't even seen the real cover yet :)  (Unless of course it's streeted<BR>
>  and my comps aren't here yet ;)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, yes I have.  First author's copy arrived direct from the printers<BR>
last night.  Looks pretty slick, even if it is me saying so.<BR>
<BR>
- ----------<BR>
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 05:01:52 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Better wounded than dead, IMHO.<BR>
<BR>
> Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
> Subject: RE: <BR>
> <BR>
> No - IIRC that a _totally_ dead fellow could be revived at CTL-16 - but as I<BR>
> cannot find the refrence at this time, I will bow to your Masterful Cannon<BR>
> Peter ;)<BR>
<BR>
Maybe but not in any canon I recall, perhaps this was a <BR>
house rule.<BR>
<BR>
At TL 16 you can get a brain transplant and move your brain<BR>
into a new body but if you are totally dead (in a less than<BR>
arctic climate) your brain will have some problems.<BR>
<BR>
At TL 20 you have Total Memory Transfer (Dupe) and could <BR>
(presumably) back up your brain to disk every morning. Then <BR>
if and when you died your party could simply clone a new body <BR>
and transfer the tape into it.<BR>
<BR>
This technology appears much sooner in GURPS (but not<BR>
GURPS Traveller) canon at TL 9 IIRC but this is a<BR>
holdover from Autoduel's Gold Cross Cloning Service.<BR>
<BR>
By Ancient Tech levels the Total Memory transfer device<BR>
should be invisibly small nanotechnology. This explains<BR>
why you can not kill Cthul, er Yaskodray, if you are not<BR>
on his home plane. See Traveller really is Dungeons<BR>
and Dragons and Dungeons and Dragons is Traveller. :| <BR>
<BR>
To paraphrase Arthur C Clark: "Any sufficiently advanced <BR>
Ancients are indistinguishable from Gods."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:51:59 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
At 09:47 AM 7/21/00, you wrote:<BR>
>GM Note: I am not intending to continue posting to the TML. I will<BR>
>discontinue posts following this message.<BR>
><BR>
>Players please respond using the GMTraveller@aol.com address.<BR>
><BR>
>Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
>Date: 255-1120<BR>
<BR>
         [snip]<BR>
<BR>
         Brilliant work!  Very entertaining to read and wonderfully <BR>
annotated.  Unfortunate that you are leaving the TML...  this is the sort <BR>
of thing we need more of.<BR>
<BR>
>There will be a similar Sword World Briefing forthcoming.<BR>
<BR>
         I look forward to it!<BR>
<BR>
	<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt	<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:21:15 -0400<BR>
From: Bob Kovalchick <Kovalchick@wbgh.com><BR>
Subject: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
I was taking with a friend the other day about the effects of a star going<BR>
super nova in the Traveller universe. The question was: How would you know<BR>
it happened? Assuming that no starships escaped from the system at the time<BR>
of the explosion, it would be years until astronomers outside the system<BR>
would know what happened. I'm guessing any ships entering the affected<BR>
system would be destroyed and you hear things like, "No ship has ever<BR>
returned from the Spooky system!".<BR>
<BR>
Possible solutions?<BR>
<BR>
Bob Kovalchick<BR>
Washington Business Group on Health<BR>
E: kovalchick@wbgh.com <mailto:kovalchick@wbgh.com> <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:50:51 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Re : Moving a rock...<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Joseph Kimball wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A good book to use as reference material for this is called "Project Icarus"<BR>
> written as part of an MIT Studend Project in Systems Engineering.  Copyright<BR>
> is 1968, and the second printing (of which I have a copy) is 1979.  ISBN<BR>
> 0-262-63068-0.  I will give a few samples below (five sentences with only<BR>
> one a quote, from a 152 page book seems well within reasonable use under<BR>
> copyright laws to me).<BR>
> <BR>
> page 1:  "...Apollo asteroids are relatively small, typically a mile in<BR>
> diameter..."<BR>
> page 13:  The time frame of the project (trying to deal with the asteroid in<BR>
> about one year's time) made a soft landing of equipment/people impossible<BR>
> with 1968 technology.  Thus for this project the only option was explosives.<BR>
> pp 14-15:  Due to the limitations of the project, a total of 6 Saturn V<BR>
> rockets was assumed to be available for the mission.<BR>
> page 22:  Each interceptor carries a 100Mt bomb, and is radar-fused to<BR>
> explode about 100 feet from the surface of the asteroid.<BR>
> page 152:  The numbers come out to a good probability of at least an 86%<BR>
> reduction in damage to the Earth by doing this project, with a 71% chance of<BR>
> deflecting the asteroid completely.<BR>
<BR>
In other words...we were better equipped to deal with this in 1968 than we<BR>
are now...We couldn't build 6 Saturn V's in that time frame no matter<BR>
what, and not have two or three of them blow up on the pad, we've lost too<BR>
much institutional engineering and manufacturing skill. The Soviets have<BR>
some humongus heavy lift vehicle on the drawing boards, but that's prety<BR>
much as far as it's gotten (IIRC it was called the Proton?)<BR>
<BR>
This was recogonized as one of the reasons for that string of Titan<BR>
vehicle failures that Nasa and the Air Force experienced a while<BR>
back...sufficient numbers of skilled people had been laid off or retired,<BR>
crippling our ability to ramp up production...all the little 'undocumented<BR>
features' of the design and manufacturing processes had to be re-learned,<BR>
the hard way.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 07:54:16 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Matthew Bond wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> A minor nit... 31 years. Just makes it yet more tragic<BR>
<BR>
Of all the timees to fumblefingers the keyboard. <blush> Or maybe it's<BR>
just my unconsious not wanting to accept that I'm that old...:-/<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:05:05 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Starport Law level was Re: Cultural differences on sex & marriage<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Michael Scanlon wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Thankyou for your input, though would it be said that if the case were at<BR>
> the other extreme and the world law level were low, that the law level in<BR>
> the Star port could also be low, at the discretion of the Star Port<BR>
> Commander? It seems to me then there are no limits to the world law level,<BR>
> whereas the law level in a Star Port require a certain amount of discretion.<BR>
<BR>
Actually, the Starport Law Level isn't really coupled to the world's Law<BR>
level that way. As I said, Imperial Law level is concerned with how big of<BR>
a gun you can carry. The PC is going to want to rein in on the hand<BR>
cannons and FGMP's a bit ;-)<BR>
<BR>
What the difference between the startpord and local law levels actually<BR>
implies is how big and guarded the fence between the starport and the<BR>
local territory is, and it'll range between a chain-link fence patrolled<BR>
by local rent-a-cops to keep the local teens from using the field as a<BR>
hangout, to heavily armed Maginot line type defenses, manned<BR>
by Imperial Army forces, facing equally heavily armed defenses manned by<BR>
local Army forces. Think East/West Berlin. In 1964. Squared. ;-)<BR>
<BR>
If you're interested in this stuff, get GT:Starports, trust me (and not<BR>
only for Jesse and Glenn's illustrations ;-)...it really covers a LOT of<BR>
the lttle nitty-gritty stuff that's been rather neglected in the past for<BR>
such an important place in the TU.<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:08:24 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman writes:<BR>
> The canon setting requires a hand wave to explain why <BR>
> asteroids are not moved _into_ collision courses with<BR>
> planets, most/all such hand waves will make it difficult<BR>
> to move asteroids _out_ of collision courses with planets.<BR>
<BR>
Not really.  It requires orders of magnitude lower delta-V.  <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 08:55:26 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: Thanks to TML<BR>
<BR>
As a person who frequently gives talks about technology, the future, and<BR>
related stuff, I have to thank the TML for the bits of wit which I have<BR>
shamelessly pirated and used over the years. I gave a talk recently about<BR>
information security, and the line which I saw in someone's sig a while<BR>
back, something like "Computers let you make mistakes faster than anything<BR>
other than guns and tequilla" was particularly well received.<BR>
<BR>
I have now been drafted into giving a talk at some health care technology<BR>
conference about information security in the health care industry in<BR>
September, so if someone can find a way to start a discussion of *that* in<BR>
the Traveller universe, I will have a much easier time...<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 09:23:03 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
Bob Kovalchick writes:<BR>
> I was taking with a friend the other day about the effects of a star going<BR>
> super nova in the Traveller universe. The question was: How would you know<BR>
> it happened? Assuming that no starships escaped from the system at the time<BR>
> of the explosion, it would be years until astronomers outside the system<BR>
> would know what happened. I'm guessing any ships entering the affected<BR>
> system would be destroyed and you hear things like, "No ship has ever<BR>
> returned from the Spooky system!".<BR>
<BR>
Well, odds are the star would have been notably unstable for some time prior to the supernova, and there's only a small number of stars in the Imperium which are really capable of a supernova, so it's not an unreasonable guess.  I also suspect that a properly designed ship, capable of at least two jumps, could penetrate a supernova remnant and survive.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:18:15 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
On 07/21/00 at 10:51 AM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:<BR>
<BR>
>At 09:47 AM 7/21/00, you wrote:<BR>
>>GM Note: I am not intending to continue posting to the TML. I will<BR>
>>discontinue posts following this message.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Players please respond using the GMTraveller@aol.com address.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
>>Date: 255-1120<BR>
<BR>
>         [snip]<BR>
<BR>
>         Brilliant work!  Very entertaining to read and wonderfully <BR>
>annotated.  Unfortunate that you are leaving the TML...  this is the sort<BR>
> of thing we need more of.<BR>
<BR>
I agree with Michel.  The actual turns aren't appropriate for the<BR>
TML, but the briefing posts, especially if they are like the Darrian<BR>
one, are.  <BR>
<BR>
In fact, occasional summaries of games are also welcome here.  So,<BR>
once your game gets going, feel free to send the TML a "news<BR>
dispatch" from time to time. <g><BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:43:46 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Merc <merc@qvlinc.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Fonts Used on Traveller Logo<BR>
<BR>
Thanks to Marc and Viktor for the font info!  I'll have to pick that one<BR>
up.<BR>
<BR>
Coy Krill<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:44:23 EDT<BR>
From: Olegamer@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
Thank you. I'll do that if enough generic material is generated. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:56:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Rodney Basler" <rgb@odetics.com><BR>
Subject: RE: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
>From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
><BR>
>At 09:46 PM 7/20/00 -0800, you wrote:<BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>> The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
>>>>what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
>>>>But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
>>>>"curtains" of light.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> Correct when facing in towards the Core or out towards the Rim...<BR>
>><BR>
>>Or spinward/trailing.<BR>
>><BR>
>>> but virtually nothing facing either the galactic north or south.<BR>
>><BR>
>>Just the globular clusters above/below the plane of the galaxy, and<BR>
>>other nearby galaxies in the local group. Lots of "fuzzy blobs".<BR>
><BR>
>But certainly no "Huge curtains of light"<BR>
<BR>
	This is like trying to claim that New York City is a featureless expanse of<BR>
gray - "Well, if you keep looking down at your feet and cup your hands<BR>
around your eyes, the only thing you will see is the flat gray sidewalk."<BR>
Yes, it you were between the spiral arms and looking north or south, it<BR>
would be dark, but to either side of you would be the dazzling arms of the<BR>
galaxy.  In the episode in question, the 'void' was totally dark;  nothing<BR>
was visible - there were no navigational references at all.  They had to fly<BR>
the vipers in a relay forward, each at the limits of sensor range of the one<BR>
behind and IIRC, the lead viper fired its main weapon straight forward.  I<BR>
think the 'dust cloud' is the best candidate for the void, as if it were<BR>
thick enough, it would obscure the vivible light at least, and be of a size<BR>
that could be conceivably crossed within the space of one episode :o)  How<BR>
wide are the rifts between the spiral arms?  1000 ly?<BR>
	Of course, the admitted flaw in the 'dust cloud' hypothesis is that they<BR>
are not opaque to IR light.  The 'Astronomy Pic of the Day' website had some<BR>
gorgeous photomosaics of the galaxy in IR light a couple of weeks ago.<BR>
		http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html    - main site<BR>
<BR>
		http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000629.html	  - view of the arms only-<BR>
the core would saturate the detector<BR>
<BR>
		http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap000705.html	  - one of the core<BR>
<BR>
	Rod Basler, COFIT<BR>
- ----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
Disclaimer - They tell me to think, they don't tell me _what_ to think.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:23:55 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Matter Transport (was Re: What if: *Real* Darrian supremacy)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> John P. Raynor" <john.raynor@yale.edu> wrote<BR>
><BR>
>> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
>> > Tech Level 18-19 features matter transport [transporters]<BR>
><BR>
>> Interestingly, according to "Book 3: Worlds and Adventures," <BR>
>> "matter transport" becomes available shockingly early, at only<BR>
>> Tech Level 16.  I vaguely recall that matter transportation was<BR>
>> discussed in detail in "Adventure 12: Secret of the Ancients," <BR>
>> but since I no longer (alas!) have a copy of that book, I can't<BR>
>> say whether the development of matter transportation at Tech <BR>
>> Level 16 has been "de-canonized."  <BR>
><BR>
> Ancient matter transportation uses more sophisticated techniques<BR>
> than experimental human efforts do.<BR>
><BR>
> In MT [Ref's Companion p29] it states that "_Experimental_<BR>
> Matter Transport (Raw Materials Only)" is TL 16. I would<BR>
> suggest that this means that you can put a kilogram of<BR>
> iron in one booth of a two booth transporter system (that<BR>
> has a multi tetra watt power line running between them) and<BR>
> get a kilogram of iron out the other end if the booth<BR>
> operator makes his skill roll. [1] IMTU this is limited to non <BR>
> radioactive items only, no uranium, plutonium, etc. On a mishap <BR>
> you get an anti matter explosion. :)<BR>
<BR>
Actually, this sounds like the teleporter in one story I read. It'd<BR>
teleport stuff just fine. Only problem was that it did so at the<BR>
*molecular* level. So liquids and gases were fine, but solids came out<BR>
as monomolecular dust. <BR>
<BR>
Great for "raw materials". Lousy for anything else.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:34:07 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Thu, 20 Jul 2000, Leonard Erickson wrote:<BR>
>> We've discussed "Traveller"-like SF before. My money is on Poul<BR>
>> Anderson's "Poleseotechnic League" stories, and his "Flandry" series.<BR>
>> Also the Dumarest books (which I understand are back in print).<BR>
>> Likewise, Andre Norton's SF from the 50s, 60s and 70s fits well.<BR>
>> Heinlein's "Citizen of the Galaxy has some possibly relevant stuff as<BR>
>> well.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd say that H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking" paints a pretty good<BR>
> picture of what life might have been like during the Long Night,<BR>
> and much of the technology portrayed in that book "feels Travellerish."<BR>
<BR>
A lot of his other stuff would fit ok in non-Imperial campaigns. <BR>
<BR>
"The Cosmic Computer" (aka "Junkyard Planet") without Merlin would make<BR>
an interesting part of a campaign. For those who haven't read it, there<BR>
was an interstellar war. The Federation "won". The planet Poictesme was<BR>
the main forward base. It had all sorts of bases and depots on it. When<BR>
the enemy folded, everything was just sealed up and abandoned, as it<BR>
wasn't worth the expense to ship it out. <BR>
<BR>
Since then (after a court decision declaring the equipment abandoned)<BR>
folks have been locating the bases (many were concealed) and salvaging<BR>
everything from uniforms and medical supplies to weapons. Of course a<BR>
lot of it (like the weapons) has to be sold offworld. And the free<BR>
traders are paying pennies on the dollar for things because the locals<BR>
don't have any spacecraft of their own.<BR>
<BR>
The Fuzzy books (the ones by Piper, *not* the other two) are an<BR>
interesting description of the discovery of an (overlooked during<BR>
survey) native race. And the consequences. :-)<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the war mentioned in "Cosmic Computer" is the one that lead to the<BR>
ancestorsa of the Space Vikings fleeing and settling the Sword Worlds<BR>
(Pipers, not Traveller's :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:45:47 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> As a person who frequently gives talks about technology, the future, and<BR>
> related stuff, I have to thank the TML for the bits of wit which I have<BR>
> shamelessly pirated and used over the years. I gave a talk recently about<BR>
> information security, and the line which I saw in someone's sig a while<BR>
> back, something like "Computers let you make mistakes faster than anything<BR>
> other than guns and tequilla" was particularly well received.<BR>
><BR>
> I have now been drafted into giving a talk at some health care technology<BR>
> conference about information security in the health care industry in<BR>
> September, so if someone can find a way to start a discussion of *that* in<BR>
> the Traveller universe, I will have a much easier time...<BR>
<BR>
You need to grab copies of the archives for comp.risks and scan thru<BR>
them for stuff having to do with health care. The newsgroup/mailing<BR>
list is in it's 20th year. <BR>
<BR>
Just off the top of my head, a few of the problems/issues that have<BR>
come up are:<BR>
<BR>
Failures (due to poor software/hardware design or unauthorized access)<BR>
that result in data not being available when needed.<BR>
<BR>
Poor choices of "key", such that info for different patients gets<BR>
confused. There are good reasons to *not* use Social Security number,<BR>
mostly due to that making it far too easy to cross reference medical<BR>
records with non-medical records elsewhere, and it's actually illegal<BR>
anyway. Alas, "full name"+"date of birth"+"place of birth" doesn't work<BR>
either. There have been cases reported of people in the US with the<BR>
same name, born in the same city, on the same day! You need an<BR>
"arbitrary" key, but you also need to check out the studies done for<BR>
the British and Canadian postal code (zip code equivalent) schemes.<BR>
They are designed so that most common transposition and substitution<BR>
errors result in *invalid* codes. This avoids someone misremembering a<BR>
letter or digit and coming up with a valid but wrong destination. They<BR>
are also designed so that you can easily remember your own code, by<BR>
using patterns of letters/numbers. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:00:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> I was taking with a friend the other day about the effects of a star going<BR>
> super nova in the Traveller universe. The question was: How would you know<BR>
> it happened? Assuming that no starships escaped from the system at the time<BR>
> of the explosion, it would be years until astronomers outside the system<BR>
> would know what happened. I'm guessing any ships entering the affected<BR>
> system would be destroyed and you hear things like, "No ship has ever<BR>
> returned from the Spooky system!".<BR>
><BR>
> Possible solutions?<BR>
<BR>
Supernovas occur in particular *types* of stars. Thus, it'd be obvious<BR>
that a star *could* go supernova sometime "soon" (with our current<BR>
knowledge, say, the next 10,000 years for a red giant). <BR>
<BR>
So if ships quit returning from jumps to a "pre-supernova" star, I<BR>
think folks would suspect what was going on. As well as about when it<BR>
happened. As heavily shielded ship could then jump in at a distance<BR>
such that they could wait a while and catch the neutrino pulse, and<BR>
still jump out before the other light speed effects got there (there's<BR>
something like 15 minutes to several hours between the massive neutrino<BR>
pulse and when the explosion reaches the surface of the star).<BR>
<BR>
For that matter, I can't imagine the Scout Service, or some group of<BR>
astromers *not* having such a system "infested" with sensors, reporting<BR>
to several ships, at least one of which is ready to jump at any given<BR>
time. <BR>
<BR>
If the pulse is only 15 minutes ahead of the blast, then only that ship<BR>
will get out (I think it'd take more than 15 minutes to get a ship<BR>
ready for jump). If it's several hours, more ships will get out.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, that's for a core collapse (Type II?) supernova. <BR>
<BR>
For the other type, you need a close binary system, with one of the<BR>
stars being a white dwarf or a neutron star. The stars have to be close<BR>
enough for mass transfer to occur (ie the solar wind, and most flares<BR>
wind up getting sucked in by the dwarf).<BR>
<BR>
This can result in "mere" novas. The material builds up on the urface,<BR>
until it's thick enough that the pressure from its own weight initiates<BR>
fusion. You get a big flash as the material goes off, then things quiet<BR>
down, and it starts building up for the next nova flash. <BR>
<BR>
Novas are merely a disaster for folks *in* the system who aren't<BR>
shielded. But they are enough of a problem that only researchers are<BR>
likely to live in the system.<BR>
<BR>
If the dwarf or neutron star is massive enough, and the transfer rate<BR>
is high enough, instead of a nova from surface fusion reactions, you'll<BR>
get the *core* pressures getting high enough that the star has to<BR>
collapse further.<BR>
<BR>
In a white dwarf, the pressure exceeds that which can be supported by<BR>
electron "pressure" at the core, and the core converts to neutronium.<BR>
Which initiates a collapse of the layers above which results in a blast<BR>
which destroys the star. That's a supernova. <BR>
<BR>
In a neutron star (which, btw is the remains of the "giant star" type<BR>
supernova) what might happen is that the mass reaches a point where the<BR>
star has to collapse into a black hole. That may or may not result in a<BR>
blast (Anybody know what current theory says?)<BR>
<BR>
So, the bottom line is that for either type of supernova, it'll be<BR>
known that the system is a potential supernova long *before* anybody<BR>
actually goes there. <BR>
<BR>
I expect that there will be optimists willing to live around a star<BR>
that might not go supernova for several thousand years (conventiently<BR>
overlooking the fact that it could do it *tomorrow* :-). <BR>
<BR>
I'm not so sure about systems with recurrent novas (we are talking<BR>
about mere *years* between incidents. like under 100, maybe as few as<BR>
10?) Still, if there's something valuable enough...<BR>
<BR>
And of course, you'll have the astronomers trying to record everything.<BR>
Sort of like the way some vulcanologists crawl around in the craters of<BR>
active volcanos.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:08:12 -0500 (CDT)<BR>
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Luther Martin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> I have now been drafted into giving a talk at some health care technology<BR>
> conference about information security in the health care industry in<BR>
> September, so if someone can find a way to start a discussion of *that* in<BR>
> the Traveller universe, I will have a much easier time...<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'll give it a shot...<BR>
Where does one go to find someone's medical records in the Traveller<BR>
universe?  A hospital where he's been treated?  What if he moves around a<BR>
lot and has been treated at n different hospitals, each of which has an<BR>
incomplete record of any medical conditions he may have?  Should a<BR>
traveller carry a complete copy with him?   What if he spent most of his<BR>
life on one planet, travelled a few jumps away for some reason, and<BR>
suddenly collapses due to an ailment that had been diagnosed on his home<BR>
planet, but was not understood by the locals?  What do you do when his<BR>
doctor's a 10-week round trip away, and this guy needs attention now?<BR>
<BR>
And getting into the security side, if you do send a request for medical<BR>
information, how do you prove you're someone who ought to have access to<BR>
that information?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:29:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
Leonard Erickson wrote,<BR>
>A lot of his other stuff would fit ok in non-Imperial campaigns.<<BR>
<BR>
I'll second that. H. Beam Piper is a truly awesome resource for almost any<BR>
space campaign. I'd go further though and suggest at least a few of his<BR>
stories are also useful for Imperial campaigns.<BR>
Four-Day Planet for Imperial investigations and local sovereignty issues as<BR>
well as the laws against chattel slavery and respect for cultural<BR>
differences.<BR>
Uller Uprising for Megacorporation adventures, aliens and nukes. (I'll<BR>
admit, any book with nukes is good just for that.)<BR>
Little Fuzzy and sequels for more Megacorporation issues as well as a nice<BR>
adventurer template. Also, more on slavery and local sovereignty.<BR>
Space Viking has to be required reading for TNE RCES people as well as<BR>
almost demanding to be made into a Spinward Marches variant campaign.<BR>
Empire (short story collection) for a number of concepts including even more<BR>
planetary sovereignty as well as Long Night and successor state issues.<BR>
And more. (My collection is packed away so I'm going by memory on all the<BR>
titles.)<BR>
Add in non-Terro-human Future History stories like Lone Star Planet (client<BR>
state, human cultural extremes and alien empire conflicts) or go totally<BR>
weird with Paratime and maybe enough of you asking for these out of print<BR>
gems will get them reprinted yet again and allow me to finish out my<BR>
collection. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Sam<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:48:05 -0700<BR>
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
<BR>
Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
<BR>
(massive handwave deleted)<BR>
<BR>
However, since we have multiple examples of Solomani thinking of this very <BR>
tactic, it seems that the manipulation has already proven unsuccessful in <BR>
at least one case.  And given the Sollies, if they CAN use this tactic (and <BR>
everyone else has some weird mental block about doing the same to them), <BR>
they WILL.<BR>
<BR>
In the end, this 'solution' is more destructive to canon than the <BR>
problem.  Nice try, Peter.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------<BR>
Kelly St.Clair        "Never give up, never surrender!"<BR>
kellys@efn.org                   -- Commander Peter Q. Taggart<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:34:10 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: UPP lists, including TL mods (physical)<BR>
<BR>
Here's a list of all possible physical UPP stats, with TL mod and how<BR>
many times the combo appears (out of 46,656).<BR>
<BR>
SAH = (Size, Atm, Hyd)<BR>
TL = TL mod for that SAH combo<BR>
<BR>
SAH  TL count<BR>
- ---  -- -----<BR>
000  3  1296 <BR>
100  3  990 <BR>
101  3  60 <BR>
102  3  30 <BR>
110  3  396 <BR>
111  3  24 <BR>
112  3  12 <BR>
120  3  150 <BR>
121  3  60 <BR>
122  3  50 <BR>
123  3  40 <BR>
124  3  30 <BR>
125  3  20 <BR>
126  3  10 <BR>
130  3  120 <BR>
131  3  48 <BR>
132  3  40 <BR>
133  3  32 <BR>
134  3  24 <BR>
135  3  16 <BR>
136  3  8 <BR>
140  2  90 <BR>
141  2  36 <BR>
142  2  30 <BR>
143  2  24 <BR>
144  2  18 <BR>
145  2  12 <BR>
146  2  6 <BR>
150  2  60 <BR>
151  2  24 <BR>
152  2  20 <BR>
153  2  16 <BR>
154  2  12 <BR>
155  2  8 <BR>
156  2  4 <BR>
160  2  30 <BR>
161  2  12 <BR>
162  2  10 <BR>
163  2  8 <BR>
164  2  6 <BR>
165  2  4 <BR>
166  2  2 <BR>
200  2  900 <BR>
201  2  90 <BR>
202  2  60 <BR>
203  2  30 <BR>
210  2  450 <BR>
211  2  45 <BR>
212  2  30 <BR>
213  2  15 <BR>
220  2  180 <BR>
221  2  90 <BR>
222  2  108 <BR>
223  2  90 <BR>
224  2  72 <BR>
225  2  54 <BR>
226  2  36 <BR>
227  2  18 <BR>
230  2  150 <BR>
231  2  75 <BR>
232  2  90 <BR>
233  2  75 <BR>
234  2  60 <BR>
235  2  45 <BR>
236  2  30 <BR>
237  2  15 <BR>
240  1  120 <BR>
241  1  60 <BR>
242  1  72 <BR>
243  1  60 <BR>
244  1  48 <BR>
245  1  36 <BR>
246  1  24 <BR>
247  1  12 <BR>
250  1  90 <BR>
251  1  45 <BR>
252  1  54 <BR>
253  1  45 <BR>
254  1  36 <BR>
255  1  27 <BR>
256  1  18 <BR>
257  1  9 <BR>
260  1  60 <BR>
261  1  30 <BR>
262  1  36 <BR>
263  1  30 <BR>
264  1  24 <BR>
265  1  18 <BR>
266  1  12 <BR>
267  1  6 <BR>
270  1  30 <BR>
271  1  15 <BR>
272  1  18 <BR>
273  1  15 <BR>
274  1  12 <BR>
275  1  9 <BR>
276  1  6 <BR>
277  1  3 <BR>
300  2  624 <BR>
301  2  96 <BR>
302  2  72 <BR>
303  2  48 <BR>
304  2  24 <BR>
310  2  416 <BR>
311  2  64 <BR>
312  2  48 <BR>
313  2  32 <BR>
314  2  16 <BR>
320  2  120 <BR>
321  2  80 <BR>
322  2  100 <BR>
323  2  120 <BR>
324  2  100 <BR>
325  2  80 <BR>
326  2  60 <BR>
327  2  40 <BR>
328  2  20 <BR>
330  2  144 <BR>
331  2  96 <BR>
332  2  120 <BR>
333  2  144 <BR>
334  2  120 <BR>
335  2  96 <BR>
336  2  72 <BR>
337  2  48 <BR>
338  2  24 <BR>
340  1  120 <BR>
341  1  80 <BR>
342  1  100 <BR>
343  1  120 <BR>
344  1  100 <BR>
345  1  80 <BR>
346  1  60 <BR>
347  1  40 <BR>
348  1  20 <BR>
350  1  96 <BR>
351  1  64 <BR>
352  1  80 <BR>
353  1  96 <BR>
354  1  80 <BR>
355  1  64 <BR>
356  1  48 <BR>
357  1  32 <BR>
358  1  16 <BR>
360  1  72 <BR>
361  1  48 <BR>
362  1  60 <BR>
363  1  72 <BR>
364  1  60 <BR>
365  1  48 <BR>
366  1  36 <BR>
367  1  24 <BR>
368  1  12 <BR>
370  1  48 <BR>
371  1  32 <BR>
372  1  40 <BR>
373  1  48 <BR>
374  1  40 <BR>
375  1  32 <BR>
376  1  24 <BR>
377  1  16 <BR>
378  1  8 <BR>
380  1  24 <BR>
381  1  16 <BR>
382  1  20 <BR>
383  1  24 <BR>
384  1  20 <BR>
385  1  16 <BR>
386  1  12 <BR>
387  1  8 <BR>
388  1  4 <BR>
400  2  315 <BR>
401  2  75 <BR>
402  2  60 <BR>
403  2  45 <BR>
404  2  30 <BR>
405  2  15 <BR>
410  2  315 <BR>
411  2  75 <BR>
412  2  60 <BR>
413  2  45 <BR>
414  2  30 <BR>
415  2  15 <BR>
420  2  60 <BR>
421  2  60 <BR>
422  2  80 <BR>
423  2  100 <BR>
424  2  120 <BR>
425  2  100 <BR>
426  2  80 <BR>
427  2  60 <BR>
428  2  40 <BR>
429  3  20 <BR>
430  2  75 <BR>
431  2  75 <BR>
432  2  100 <BR>
433  2  125 <BR>
434  2  150 <BR>
435  2  125 <BR>
436  2  100 <BR>
437  2  75 <BR>
438  2  50 <BR>
439  3  25 <BR>
440  1  90 <BR>
441  1  90 <BR>
442  1  120 <BR>
443  1  150 <BR>
444  1  180 <BR>
445  1  150 <BR>
446  1  120 <BR>
447  1  90 <BR>
448  1  60 <BR>
449  2  30 <BR>
450  1  75 <BR>
451  1  75 <BR>
452  1  100 <BR>
453  1  125 <BR>
454  1  150 <BR>
455  1  125 <BR>
456  1  100 <BR>
457  1  75 <BR>
458  1  50 <BR>
459  2  25 <BR>
460  1  60 <BR>
461  1  60 <BR>
462  1  80 <BR>
463  1  100 <BR>
464  1  120 <BR>
465  1  100 <BR>
466  1  80 <BR>
467  1  60 <BR>
468  1  40 <BR>
469  2  20 <BR>
470  1  45 <BR>
471  1  45 <BR>
472  1  60 <BR>
473  1  75 <BR>
474  1  90 <BR>
475  1  75 <BR>
476  1  60 <BR>
477  1  45 <BR>
478  1  30 <BR>
479  2  15 <BR>
480  1  30 <BR>
481  1  30 <BR>
482  1  40 <BR>
483  1  50 <BR>
484  1  60 <BR>
485  1  50 <BR>
486  1  40 <BR>
487  1  30 <BR>
488  1  20 <BR>
489  2  10 <BR>
490  1  15 <BR>
491  1  15 <BR>
492  1  20 <BR>
493  1  25 <BR>
494  1  30 <BR>
495  1  25 <BR>
496  1  20 <BR>
497  1  15 <BR>
498  1  10 <BR>
499  2  5 <BR>
500  1  90 <BR>
501  1  36 <BR>
502  1  30 <BR>
503  1  24 <BR>
504  1  18 <BR>
505  1  12 <BR>
506  1  6 <BR>
510  1  180 <BR>
511  1  72 <BR>
512  1  60 <BR>
513  1  48 <BR>
514  1  36 <BR>
515  1  24 <BR>
516  1  12 <BR>
520  1  18 <BR>
521  1  36 <BR>
522  1  54 <BR>
523  1  72 <BR>
524  1  90 <BR>
525  1  108 <BR>
526  1  90 <BR>
527  1  72 <BR>
528  1  54 <BR>
529  2  36 <BR>
52A  3  18 <BR>
530  1  24 <BR>
531  1  48 <BR>
532  1  72 <BR>
533  1  96 <BR>
534  1  120 <BR>
535  1  144 <BR>
536  1  120 <BR>
537  1  96 <BR>
538  1  72 <BR>
539  2  48 <BR>
53A  3  24 <BR>
540  0  30 <BR>
541  0  60 <BR>
542  0  90 <BR>
543  0  120 <BR>
544  0  150 <BR>
545  0  180 <BR>
546  0  150 <BR>
547  0  120 <BR>
548  0  90 <BR>
549  1  60 <BR>
54A  2  30 <BR>
550  0  36 <BR>
551  0  72 <BR>
552  0  108 <BR>
553  0  144 <BR>
554  0  180 <BR>
555  0  216 <BR>
556  0  180 <BR>
557  0  144 <BR>
558  0  108 <BR>
559  1  72 <BR>
55A  2  36 <BR>
560  0  30 <BR>
561  0  60 <BR>
562  0  90 <BR>
563  0  120 <BR>
564  0  150 <BR>
565  0  180 <BR>
566  0  150 <BR>
567  0  120 <BR>
568  0  90 <BR>
569  1  60 <BR>
56A  2  30 <BR>
570  0  24 <BR>
571  0  48 <BR>
572  0  72 <BR>
573  0  96 <BR>
574  0  120 <BR>
575  0  144 <BR>
576  0  120 <BR>
577  0  96 <BR>
578  0  72 <BR>
579  1  48 <BR>
57A  2  24 <BR>
580  0  18 <BR>
581  0  36 <BR>
582  0  54 <BR>
583  0  72 <BR>
584  0  90 <BR>
585  0  108 <BR>
586  0  90 <BR>
587  0  72 <BR>
588  0  54 <BR>
589  1  36 <BR>
58A  2  18 <BR>
590  0  12 <BR>
591  0  24 <BR>
592  0  36 <BR>
593  0  48 <BR>
594  0  60 <BR>
595  0  72 <BR>
596  0  60 <BR>
597  0  48 <BR>
598  0  36 <BR>
599  1  24 <BR>
59A  2  12 <BR>
5A0  1  90 <BR>
5A1  1  36 <BR>
5A2  1  30 <BR>
5A3  1  24 <BR>
5A4  1  18 <BR>
5A5  1  12 <BR>
5A6  1  6 <BR>
610  1  50 <BR>
611  1  25 <BR>
612  1  30 <BR>
613  1  25 <BR>
614  1  20 <BR>
615  1  15 <BR>
616  1  10 <BR>
617  1  5 <BR>
621  1  10 <BR>
622  1  20 <BR>
623  1  30 <BR>
624  1  40 <BR>
625  1  50 <BR>
626  1  60 <BR>
627  1  50 <BR>
628  1  40 <BR>
629  2  30 <BR>
62A  3  30 <BR>
631  1  15 <BR>
632  1  30 <BR>
633  1  45 <BR>
634  1  60 <BR>
635  1  75 <BR>
636  1  90 <BR>
637  1  75 <BR>
638  1  60 <BR>
639  2  45 <BR>
63A  3  45 <BR>
641  0  20 <BR>
642  0  40 <BR>
643  0  60 <BR>
644  0  80 <BR>
645  0  100 <BR>
646  0  120 <BR>
647  0  100 <BR>
648  0  80 <BR>
649  1  60 <BR>
64A  2  60 <BR>
651  0  25 <BR>
652  0  50 <BR>
653  0  75 <BR>
654  0  100 <BR>
655  0  125 <BR>
656  0  150 <BR>
657  0  125 <BR>
658  0  100 <BR>
659  1  75 <BR>
65A  2  75 <BR>
661  0  30 <BR>
662  0  60 <BR>
663  0  90 <BR>
664  0  120 <BR>
665  0  150 <BR>
666  0  180 <BR>
667  0  150 <BR>
668  0  120 <BR>
669  1  90 <BR>
66A  2  90 <BR>
671  0  25 <BR>
672  0  50 <BR>
673  0  75 <BR>
674  0  100 <BR>
675  0  125 <BR>
676  0  150 <BR>
677  0  125 <BR>
678  0  100 <BR>
679  1  75 <BR>
67A  2  75 <BR>
681  0  20 <BR>
682  0  40 <BR>
683  0  60 <BR>
684  0  80 <BR>
685  0  100 <BR>
686  0  120 <BR>
687  0  100 <BR>
688  0  80 <BR>
689  1  60 <BR>
68A  2  60 <BR>
691  0  15 <BR>
692  0  30 <BR>
693  0  45 <BR>
694  0  60 <BR>
695  0  75 <BR>
696  0  90 <BR>
697  0  75 <BR>
698  0  60 <BR>
699  1  45 <BR>
69A  2  45 <BR>
6A0  1  100 <BR>
6A1  1  50 <BR>
6A2  1  60 <BR>
6A3  1  50 <BR>
6A4  1  40 <BR>
6A5  1  30 <BR>
6A6  1  20 <BR>
6A7  1  10 <BR>
6B0  1  50 <BR>
6B1  1  25 <BR>
6B2  1  30 <BR>
6B3  1  25 <BR>
6B4  1  20 <BR>
6B5  1  15 <BR>
6B6  1  10 <BR>
6B7  1  5 <BR>
722  1  4 <BR>
723  1  8 <BR>
724  1  12 <BR>
725  1  16 <BR>
726  1  20 <BR>
727  1  24 <BR>
728  1  20 <BR>
729  2  16 <BR>
72A  3  24 <BR>
732  1  8 <BR>
733  1  16 <BR>
734  1  24 <BR>
735  1  32 <BR>
736  1  40 <BR>
737  1  48 <BR>
738  1  40 <BR>
739  2  32 <BR>
73A  3  48 <BR>
742  0  12 <BR>
743  0  24 <BR>
744  0  36 <BR>
745  0  48 <BR>
746  0  60 <BR>
747  0  72 <BR>
748  0  60 <BR>
749  1  48 <BR>
74A  2  72 <BR>
752  0  16 <BR>
753  0  32 <BR>
754  0  48 <BR>
755  0  64 <BR>
756  0  80 <BR>
757  0  96 <BR>
758  0  80 <BR>
759  1  64 <BR>
75A  2  96 <BR>
762  0  20 <BR>
763  0  40 <BR>
764  0  60 <BR>
765  0  80 <BR>
766  0  100 <BR>
767  0  120 <BR>
768  0  100 <BR>
769  1  80 <BR>
76A  2  120 <BR>
772  0  24 <BR>
773  0  48 <BR>
774  0  72 <BR>
775  0  96 <BR>
776  0  120 <BR>
777  0  144 <BR>
778  0  120 <BR>
779  1  96 <BR>
77A  2  144 <BR>
782  0  20 <BR>
783  0  40 <BR>
784  0  60 <BR>
785  0  80 <BR>
786  0  100 <BR>
787  0  120 <BR>
788  0  100 <BR>
789  1  80 <BR>
78A  2  120 <BR>
792  0  16 <BR>
793  0  32 <BR>
794  0  48 <BR>
795  0  64 <BR>
796  0  80 <BR>
797  0  96 <BR>
798  0  80 <BR>
799  1  64 <BR>
79A  2  96 <BR>
7A0  1  72 <BR>
7A1  1  48 <BR>
7A2  1  60 <BR>
7A3  1  72 <BR>
7A4  1  60 <BR>
7A5  1  48 <BR>
7A6  1  36 <BR>
7A7  1  24 <BR>
7A8  1  12 <BR>
7B0  1  48 <BR>
7B1  1  32 <BR>
7B2  1  40 <BR>
7B3  1  48 <BR>
7B4  1  40 <BR>
7B5  1  32 <BR>
7B6  1  24 <BR>
7B7  1  16 <BR>
7B8  1  8 <BR>
7C0  1  24 <BR>
7C1  1  16 <BR>
7C2  1  20 <BR>
7C3  1  24 <BR>
7C4  1  20 <BR>
7C5  1  16 <BR>
7C6  1  12 <BR>
7C7  1  8 <BR>
7C8  1  4 <BR>
833  1  3 <BR>
834  1  6 <BR>
835  1  9 <BR>
836  1  12 <BR>
837  1  15 <BR>
838  1  18 <BR>
839  2  15 <BR>
83A  3  30 <BR>
843  0  6 <BR>
844  0  12 <BR>
845  0  18 <BR>
846  0  24 <BR>
847  0  30 <BR>
848  0  36 <BR>
849  1  30 <BR>
84A  2  60 <BR>
853  0  9 <BR>
854  0  18 <BR>
855  0  27 <BR>
856  0  36 <BR>
857  0  45 <BR>
858  0  54 <BR>
859  1  45 <BR>
85A  2  90 <BR>
863  0  12 <BR>
864  0  24 <BR>
865  0  36 <BR>
866  0  48 <BR>
867  0  60 <BR>
868  0  72 <BR>
869  1  60 <BR>
86A  2  120 <BR>
873  0  15 <BR>
874  0  30 <BR>
875  0  45 <BR>
876  0  60 <BR>
877  0  75 <BR>
878  0  90 <BR>
879  1  75 <BR>
87A  2  150 <BR>
883  0  18 <BR>
884  0  36 <BR>
885  0  54 <BR>
886  0  72 <BR>
887  0  90 <BR>
888  0  108 <BR>
889  1  90 <BR>
88A  2  180 <BR>
893  0  15 <BR>
894  0  30 <BR>
895  0  45 <BR>
896  0  60 <BR>
897  0  75 <BR>
898  0  90 <BR>
899  1  75 <BR>
89A  2  150 <BR>
8A0  1  36 <BR>
8A1  1  36 <BR>
8A2  1  48 <BR>
8A3  1  60 <BR>
8A4  1  72 <BR>
8A5  1  60 <BR>
8A6  1  48 <BR>
8A7  1  36 <BR>
8A8  1  24 <BR>
8A9  2  12 <BR>
8B0  1  27 <BR>
8B1  1  27 <BR>
8B2  1  36 <BR>
8B3  1  45 <BR>
8B4  1  54 <BR>
8B5  1  45 <BR>
8B6  1  36 <BR>
8B7  1  27 <BR>
8B8  1  18 <BR>
8B9  2  9 <BR>
8C0  1  18 <BR>
8C1  1  18 <BR>
8C2  1  24 <BR>
8C3  1  30 <BR>
8C4  1  36 <BR>
8C5  1  30 <BR>
8C6  1  24 <BR>
8C7  1  18 <BR>
8C8  1  12 <BR>
8C9  2  6 <BR>
8D0  1  9 <BR>
8D1  1  9 <BR>
8D2  1  12 <BR>
8D3  1  15 <BR>
8D4  1  18 <BR>
8D5  1  15 <BR>
8D6  1  12 <BR>
8D7  1  9 <BR>
8D8  1  6 <BR>
8D9  2  3 <BR>
944  0  2 <BR>
945  0  4 <BR>
946  0  6 <BR>
947  0  8 <BR>
948  0  10 <BR>
949  1  12 <BR>
94A  2  30 <BR>
954  0  4 <BR>
955  0  8 <BR>
956  0  12 <BR>
957  0  16 <BR>
958  0  20 <BR>
959  1  24 <BR>
95A  2  60 <BR>
964  0  6 <BR>
965  0  12 <BR>
966  0  18 <BR>
967  0  24 <BR>
968  0  30 <BR>
969  1  36 <BR>
96A  2  90 <BR>
974  0  8 <BR>
975  0  16 <BR>
976  0  24 <BR>
977  0  32 <BR>
978  0  40 <BR>
979  1  48 <BR>
97A  2  120 <BR>
984  0  10 <BR>
985  0  20 <BR>
986  0  30 <BR>
987  0  40 <BR>
988  0  50 <BR>
989  1  60 <BR>
98A  2  150 <BR>
994  0  12 <BR>
995  0  24 <BR>
996  0  36 <BR>
997  0  48 <BR>
998  0  60 <BR>
999  1  72 <BR>
99A  2  180 <BR>
9A0  1  10 <BR>
9A1  1  20 <BR>
9A2  1  30 <BR>
9A3  1  40 <BR>
9A4  1  50 <BR>
9A5  1  60 <BR>
9A6  1  50 <BR>
9A7  1  40 <BR>
9A8  1  30 <BR>
9A9  2  20 <BR>
9AA  3  10 <BR>
9B0  1  8 <BR>
9B1  1  16 <BR>
9B2  1  24 <BR>
9B3  1  32 <BR>
9B4  1  40 <BR>
9B5  1  48 <BR>
9B6  1  40 <BR>
9B7  1  32 <BR>
9B8  1  24 <BR>
9B9  2  16 <BR>
9BA  3  8 <BR>
9C0  1  6 <BR>
9C1  1  12 <BR>
9C2  1  18 <BR>
9C3  1  24 <BR>
9C4  1  30 <BR>
9C5  1  36 <BR>
9C6  1  30 <BR>
9C7  1  24 <BR>
9C8  1  18 <BR>
9C9  2  12 <BR>
9CA  3  6 <BR>
9D0  1  4 <BR>
9D1  1  8 <BR>
9D2  1  12 <BR>
9D3  1  16 <BR>
9D4  1  20 <BR>
9D5  1  24 <BR>
9D6  1  20 <BR>
9D7  1  16 <BR>
9D8  1  12 <BR>
9D9  2  8 <BR>
9DA  3  4 <BR>
9E0  1  2 <BR>
9E1  1  4 <BR>
9E2  1  6 <BR>
9E3  1  8 <BR>
9E4  1  10 <BR>
9E5  1  12 <BR>
9E6  1  10 <BR>
9E7  1  8 <BR>
9E8  1  6 <BR>
9E9  2  4 <BR>
9EA  3  2 <BR>
A55  0  1 <BR>
A56  0  2 <BR>
A57  0  3 <BR>
A58  0  4 <BR>
A59  1  5 <BR>
A5A  2  21 <BR>
A65  0  2 <BR>
A66  0  4 <BR>
A67  0  6 <BR>
A68  0  8 <BR>
A69  1  10 <BR>
A6A  2  42 <BR>
A75  0  3 <BR>
A76  0  6 <BR>
A77  0  9 <BR>
A78  0  12 <BR>
A79  1  15 <BR>
A7A  2  63 <BR>
A85  0  4 <BR>
A86  0  8 <BR>
A87  0  12 <BR>
A88  0  16 <BR>
A89  1  20 <BR>
A8A  2  84 <BR>
A95  0  5 <BR>
A96  0  10 <BR>
A97  0  15 <BR>
A98  0  20 <BR>
A99  1  25 <BR>
A9A  2  105 <BR>
AA1  1  6 <BR>
AA2  1  12 <BR>
AA3  1  18 <BR>
AA4  1  24 <BR>
AA5  1  30 <BR>
AA6  1  36 <BR>
AA7  1  30 <BR>
AA8  1  24 <BR>
AA9  2  18 <BR>
AAA  3  18 <BR>
AB1  1  5 <BR>
AB2  1  10 <BR>
AB3  1  15 <BR>
AB4  1  20 <BR>
AB5  1  25 <BR>
AB6  1  30 <BR>
AB7  1  25 <BR>
AB8  1  20 <BR>
AB9  2  15 <BR>
ABA  3  15 <BR>
AC1  1  4 <BR>
AC2  1  8 <BR>
AC3  1  12 <BR>
AC4  1  16 <BR>
AC5  1  20 <BR>
AC6  1  24 <BR>
AC7  1  20 <BR>
AC8  1  16 <BR>
AC9  2  12 <BR>
ACA  3  12 <BR>
AD1  1  3 <BR>
AD2  1  6 <BR>
AD3  1  9 <BR>
AD4  1  12 <BR>
AD5  1  15 <BR>
AD6  1  18 <BR>
AD7  1  15 <BR>
AD8  1  12 <BR>
AD9  2  9 <BR>
ADA  3  9 <BR>
AE1  1  2 <BR>
AE2  1  4 <BR>
AE3  1  6 <BR>
AE4  1  8 <BR>
AE5  1  10 <BR>
AE6  1  12 <BR>
AE7  1  10 <BR>
AE8  1  8 <BR>
AE9  2  6 <BR>
AEA  3  6 <BR>
AF1  1  1 <BR>
AF2  1  2 <BR>
AF3  1  3 <BR>
AF4  1  4 <BR>
AF5  1  5 <BR>
AF6  1  6 <BR>
AF7  1  5 <BR>
AF8  1  4 <BR>
AF9  2  3 <BR>
AFA  3  3 <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2795<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2796</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
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Traveller-digest       Friday, July 21 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2796<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
UPP lists, including TL mods (social) <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:44:37 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: UPP lists, including TL mods (social) <BR>
<BR>
Here's a list of all possible social UPP stats, with TL mod and how<BR>
many times the combo appears (out of 46,656).<BR>
<BR>
PGL = (Pop, Gov, Law)<BR>
TL = TL mod for that PGL combo<BR>
<BR>
PGL  TL count<BR>
- ---  -- -----<BR>
000  1  441 <BR>
001  1  105 <BR>
002  1  84 <BR>
003  1  63 <BR>
004  1  42 <BR>
005  1  21 <BR>
010  0  75 <BR>
011  0  30 <BR>
012  0  25 <BR>
013  0  20 <BR>
014  0  15 <BR>
015  0  10 <BR>
016  0  5 <BR>
020  0  40 <BR>
021  0  20 <BR>
022  0  24 <BR>
023  0  20 <BR>
024  0  16 <BR>
025  0  12 <BR>
026  0  8 <BR>
027  0  4 <BR>
030  0  18 <BR>
031  0  12 <BR>
032  0  15 <BR>
033  0  18 <BR>
034  0  15 <BR>
035  0  12 <BR>
036  0  9 <BR>
037  0  6 <BR>
038  0  3 <BR>
040  0  6 <BR>
041  0  6 <BR>
042  0  8 <BR>
043  0  10 <BR>
044  0  12 <BR>
045  0  10 <BR>
046  0  8 <BR>
047  0  6 <BR>
048  0  4 <BR>
049  0  2 <BR>
050  1  1 <BR>
051  1  2 <BR>
052  1  3 <BR>
053  1  4 <BR>
054  1  5 <BR>
055  1  6 <BR>
056  1  5 <BR>
057  1  4 <BR>
058  1  3 <BR>
059  1  2 <BR>
05A  1  1 <BR>
100  2  630 <BR>
101  2  150 <BR>
102  2  120 <BR>
103  2  90 <BR>
104  2  60 <BR>
105  2  30 <BR>
110  1  180 <BR>
111  1  72 <BR>
112  1  60 <BR>
113  1  48 <BR>
114  1  36 <BR>
115  1  24 <BR>
116  1  12 <BR>
120  1  100 <BR>
121  1  50 <BR>
122  1  60 <BR>
123  1  50 <BR>
124  1  40 <BR>
125  1  30 <BR>
126  1  20 <BR>
127  1  10 <BR>
130  1  48 <BR>
131  1  32 <BR>
132  1  40 <BR>
133  1  48 <BR>
134  1  40 <BR>
135  1  32 <BR>
136  1  24 <BR>
137  1  16 <BR>
138  1  8 <BR>
140  1  18 <BR>
141  1  18 <BR>
142  1  24 <BR>
143  1  30 <BR>
144  1  36 <BR>
145  1  30 <BR>
146  1  24 <BR>
147  1  18 <BR>
148  1  12 <BR>
149  1  6 <BR>
150  2  4 <BR>
151  2  8 <BR>
152  2  12 <BR>
153  2  16 <BR>
154  2  20 <BR>
155  2  24 <BR>
156  2  20 <BR>
157  2  16 <BR>
158  2  12 <BR>
159  2  8 <BR>
15A  2  4 <BR>
161  1  2 <BR>
162  1  4 <BR>
163  1  6 <BR>
164  1  8 <BR>
165  1  10 <BR>
166  1  12 <BR>
167  1  10 <BR>
168  1  8 <BR>
169  1  6 <BR>
16A  1  4 <BR>
16B  1  2 <BR>
200  2  630 <BR>
201  2  150 <BR>
202  2  120 <BR>
203  2  90 <BR>
204  2  60 <BR>
205  2  30 <BR>
210  1  225 <BR>
211  1  90 <BR>
212  1  75 <BR>
213  1  60 <BR>
214  1  45 <BR>
215  1  30 <BR>
216  1  15 <BR>
220  1  180 <BR>
221  1  90 <BR>
222  1  108 <BR>
223  1  90 <BR>
224  1  72 <BR>
225  1  54 <BR>
226  1  36 <BR>
227  1  18 <BR>
230  1  90 <BR>
231  1  60 <BR>
232  1  75 <BR>
233  1  90 <BR>
234  1  75 <BR>
235  1  60 <BR>
236  1  45 <BR>
237  1  30 <BR>
238  1  15 <BR>
240  1  36 <BR>
241  1  36 <BR>
242  1  48 <BR>
243  1  60 <BR>
244  1  72 <BR>
245  1  60 <BR>
246  1  48 <BR>
247  1  36 <BR>
248  1  24 <BR>
249  1  12 <BR>
250  2  9 <BR>
251  2  18 <BR>
252  2  27 <BR>
253  2  36 <BR>
254  2  45 <BR>
255  2  54 <BR>
256  2  45 <BR>
257  2  36 <BR>
258  2  27 <BR>
259  2  18 <BR>
25A  2  9 <BR>
261  1  6 <BR>
262  1  12 <BR>
263  1  18 <BR>
264  1  24 <BR>
265  1  30 <BR>
266  1  36 <BR>
267  1  30 <BR>
268  1  24 <BR>
269  1  18 <BR>
26A  1  12 <BR>
26B  1  6 <BR>
272  1  3 <BR>
273  1  6 <BR>
274  1  9 <BR>
275  1  12 <BR>
276  1  15 <BR>
277  1  18 <BR>
278  1  15 <BR>
279  1  12 <BR>
27A  1  9 <BR>
27B  1  6 <BR>
27C  1  3 <BR>
300  2  504 <BR>
301  2  120 <BR>
302  2  96 <BR>
303  2  72 <BR>
304  2  48 <BR>
305  2  24 <BR>
310  1  240 <BR>
311  1  96 <BR>
312  1  80 <BR>
313  1  64 <BR>
314  1  48 <BR>
315  1  32 <BR>
316  1  16 <BR>
320  1  200 <BR>
321  1  100 <BR>
322  1  120 <BR>
323  1  100 <BR>
324  1  80 <BR>
325  1  60 <BR>
326  1  40 <BR>
327  1  20 <BR>
330  1  144 <BR>
331  1  96 <BR>
332  1  120 <BR>
333  1  144 <BR>
334  1  120 <BR>
335  1  96 <BR>
336  1  72 <BR>
337  1  48 <BR>
338  1  24 <BR>
340  1  60 <BR>
341  1  60 <BR>
342  1  80 <BR>
343  1  100 <BR>
344  1  120 <BR>
345  1  100 <BR>
346  1  80 <BR>
347  1  60 <BR>
348  1  40 <BR>
349  1  20 <BR>
350  2  16 <BR>
351  2  32 <BR>
352  2  48 <BR>
353  2  64 <BR>
354  2  80 <BR>
355  2  96 <BR>
356  2  80 <BR>
357  2  64 <BR>
358  2  48 <BR>
359  2  32 <BR>
35A  2  16 <BR>
361  1  12 <BR>
362  1  24 <BR>
363  1  36 <BR>
364  1  48 <BR>
365  1  60 <BR>
366  1  72 <BR>
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ABE  4  15 <BR>
ABF  4  10 <BR>
ABG  4  5 <BR>
AC7  4  4 <BR>
AC8  4  8 <BR>
AC9  4  12 <BR>
ACA  4  16 <BR>
ACB  4  20 <BR>
ACC  4  24 <BR>
ACD  4  20 <BR>
ACE  4  16 <BR>
ACF  4  12 <BR>
ACG  4  8 <BR>
ACH  4  4 <BR>
AD8  2  3 <BR>
AD9  2  6 <BR>
ADA  2  9 <BR>
ADB  2  12 <BR>
ADC  2  15 <BR>
ADD  2  18 <BR>
ADE  2  15 <BR>
ADF  2  12 <BR>
ADG  2  9 <BR>
ADH  2  6 <BR>
ADJ  2  3 <BR>
AE9  4  2 <BR>
AEA  4  4 <BR>
AEB  4  6 <BR>
AEC  4  8 <BR>
AED  4  10 <BR>
AEE  4  12 <BR>
AEF  4  10 <BR>
AEG  4  8 <BR>
AEH  4  6 <BR>
AEJ  4  4 <BR>
AEK  4  2 <BR>
AFA  4  1 <BR>
AFB  4  2 <BR>
AFC  4  3 <BR>
AFD  4  4 <BR>
AFE  4  5 <BR>
AFF  4  6 <BR>
AFG  4  5 <BR>
AFH  4  4 <BR>
AFJ  4  3 <BR>
AFK  4  2 <BR>
AFL  4  1 <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2796<BR>
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Traveller-digest      Saturday, July 22 2000      Volume 1999 : Number 2797<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
UPP lists, including TL mods <BR>
Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
Re: UPP lists, including TL mods <BR>
Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
Gearhead Alert!<BR>
RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
Error in M0 map on maps.grandsurvey.com?<BR>
Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
UPP lists, including TL mods (social) <BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:08:48 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
<BR>
Kelly St.Clair writes:<BR>
> <BR>
> However, since we have multiple examples of Solomani thinking of this very <BR>
> tactic, it seems that the manipulation has already proven unsuccessful in <BR>
> at least one case.  And given the Sollies, if they CAN use this tactic (and<BR>
>  everyone else has some weird mental block about doing the same to them), <BR>
> they WILL.<BR>
<BR>
This is why my solution involves the 'Ancient Anti-Innovation Virus' (actually, I have a different fix for reactionless drives, but...).  This accounts for why the Terrans had a rapid period of advancement, but went technologically stagnant a relatively short time after meeting the Vilani.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:41:01 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
Here's something from the MT days on Super Novas...<BR>
<BR>
***<BR>
<BR>
Supernovae - Stellar Death<BR>
by Clayton R. Bush<BR>
<BR>
     A supernova is an explosion in a star's<BR>
interior. 10-100% of the star's mass blows away.<BR>
The explosion forms atoms five times as dense as<BR>
iron.<BR>
     The star's emissions rise a billions times,<BR>
to equal an entire galaxy's normal radiation.<BR>
Super-novae do not flare and immediately die.<BR>
Brightness peaks around day 50, and then declines<BR>
for at least a year.<BR>
     A shell remains, of stellar matter expanding<BR>
into space. A central remnant can remain. Both<BR>
continue to emit energy.<BR>
<BR>
Observation<BR>
     Supernovae emit light in the yellow to red<BR>
range - the star's surface is cool. Because of the<BR>
amount of energy emitted, X-rays will still be<BR>
millions or billions of times stronger than Sol's<BR>
emissions.<BR>
     Little direct, close observation is possible.<BR>
The well-known Crab Nebula is jump-2000 rimward of<BR>
Terra. Similar distances apply to other remnants.<BR>
<BR>
Frequency<BR>
     An average of four supernovae occur each<BR>
century in each galaxy. We detect few in our own,<BR>
because most occur on the far side of the galactic<BR>
core or are obscured by intervening gas clouds.<BR>
     Supernovae in spiral galaxies usually occur<BR>
in the core or between the arms. They are rarely<BR>
seen in the arms themselves. (Again, dust clouds<BR>
could obscure them.)<BR>
<BR>
     Astronomers divide supernovae into two<BR>
categories. A possible third category has exactly<BR>
one sample.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Type I Supernovae<BR>
     Frequency: 75%<BR>
     Examples: Kepler's supernova, Tycho's<BR>
supernova.<BR>
<BR>
     These frequently occur in elliptical galaxies<BR>
and can occur anywhere throughout the disk of<BR>
spiral galaxies. (Possible connection to<BR>
Population I's old stars.) Their emissions<BR>
spectrum lack hydrogen absorption lines, and<BR>
concentrate at certain wavelengths. What molecules<BR>
or particles radiate at those wavelengths is under<BR>
study.<BR>
<BR>
     The explosion leaves no central remnant: no<BR>
white dwarf, pulsar, or black hole. Light peaks at<BR>
3 x 109 suns around day 50. Thereafter, brightness<BR>
declines by half every 60 days.<BR>
<BR>
     Cause: Because of the lack of hydrogen lines,<BR>
theorists believe that a white dwarf explodes.<BR>
Gravitation perturbations can drag a white dwarf<BR>
companion closer and closer to a red giant<BR>
primary, until they collide. the white dwarf could<BR>
gain enough mass to ignite nuclear reactions in<BR>
its degenerate core.<BR>
     Alternately, stars slightly less massive than<BR>
ten solar masses compress their cores into white<BR>
dwarfs. After a very long time, the carbon core<BR>
becomes large enough to start a runaway carbon<BR>
fusion process.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Type II Supernovae<BR>
     Frequency: 25%<BR>
     Examples: Crab Nebula, Casseopeia A.<BR>
<BR>
     These appear only in the arms of spiral<BR>
galaxies. (Possible connection to Population II's<BR>
younger stars.) Their spectrum are rich in<BR>
hydrogen and otherwise characteristic of red<BR>
giants. The star loses 10-90% of its mass.<BR>
<BR>
     Brightness peaks around day 50. At that<BR>
point, it suddenly falls 1.5 magnitudes, and then<BR>
almost stabilizes for 50 days. Brightness the <BR>
falls erratically, but it does fall two magnitudes<BR>
in the next 60-120 days.<BR>
<BR>
     Type II supernovae leave remnants: pulsars or<BR>
black holes. Pressure in a massive compresses its<BR>
core into a pulsar before the explosion. White<BR>
dwarfs do no result from supernovae.<BR>
<BR>
     Cause: Astronomers believe an imploding iron<BR>
core causes these supernovae. A star needs a mass<BR>
of ten suns to generate reactions in an iron core.<BR>
There are two possible causes.<BR>
<BR>
     First, in a star large enough to develop an<BR>
iron core, pressure compresses the core into a<BR>
neutron star. The contraction from iron core to<BR>
pulsar could liberate enough gravitational and<BR>
rotational energy to throw off the star's exterior<BR>
in a cataclysmic explosion.<BR>
     Second, stars massing 10+ solar masses can<BR>
ignite nuclear reactions inside an iron core.<BR>
Nuclear reactions that break down or build up iron<BR>
<BR>
absorb energy. The core cools and shrinks. An<BR>
induced explosion around the core propels the<BR>
exterior layers away.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Type III Supernovae<BR>
     Frequency: one.<BR>
     Location: a distant galaxy.<BR>
<BR>
     In -2557 (1961AD), a supernova in a galaxy in<BR>
Perseus took a full year to reach peak brightness.<BR>
It declined very slowly -- it remained visible for<BR>
nine years. What powered this explosion?<BR>
<BR>
     The long time spans could possibly be<BR>
explained by assuming the galaxy was moving away<BR>
from us at a large fraction of lightspeed. (This<BR>
would "drag out" the observations.) The distance<BR>
required for such a speed does not agree with the<BR>
supernova's apparent brightness. Consequently,<BR>
that possible explanation has been dropped.<BR>
<BR>
     Cause: Stars larger than 90 solar masses have<BR>
been shown to be too unstable to form. Recent<BR>
speculation - based on magnetic and relativistic<BR>
effects - permit larger stars. The upper size may<BR>
be extended up to 2000 solar masses. Such a star<BR>
would ignite quickly, burn brightly, and soon die<BR>
explosively. An iron core would soon form - if the<BR>
helium core didn't collapse into a black hole<BR>
first!<BR>
<BR>
     When a star ignites, an explosive burst of<BR>
solar wind drives out interplanetary mass. The<BR>
star and its planets stop acquiring mass.<BR>
Frequency distribution of stellar masses seems<BR>
partially explicable in terms of the need for<BR>
coincidences to acquire mass larger than a red<BR>
dwarf has.<BR>
     Can a supermassive star occur normally?<BR>
Ignition of a 90-solar-mass blue giant and the<BR>
subsequent solar wind is a major problem to<BR>
supporters of the Type III supernovae theory.<BR>
<BR>
     Could the length of the reaction (nine years)<BR>
lead to other cores inside the iron core? Normal<BR>
supernovae form atoms five times as dense as iron.<BR>
Can stable transuranic elements form? Can decay of<BR>
unstable transuranic elements help explain the<BR>
violence of the reaction?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Supernovae Shells<BR>
     A Type I supernova creates a shockwave which<BR>
pushes out matter it meets. A Type II supernova<BR>
throws off the star's exterior at 3% of<BR>
lightspeed. Both go through two phases.<BR>
<BR>
     Phase I:  The gas cloud expands at speeds of<BR>
5000 kps, and has a temperature of 10,000Ok.<BR>
Expanding matter plows up matter equal to its own<BR>
mass after a few centuries. The original matter<BR>
slows and disperses -- the shockwave continues.<BR>
     After several millennia, the shell measures<BR>
several parsecs across. (After 900 years, the Crab<BR>
Nebula is - was? - three parsecs across. Average<BR>
speed was only 1.1% of lightspeed.)<BR>
     Momentum declines steadily. After 20-30,000<BR>
years, the shockwave suffers a rapid collapse. The<BR>
edge's temperature falls from a million degrees to<BR>
almost nothing.<BR>
<BR>
     Phase II:  expansion continues. Speed slowly<BR>
falls until at 10-20 kps the shell simply<BR>
dissipates. Local gravitational forces overwhelm<BR>
the shell's momentum.<BR>
<BR>
     All supernova shells emit radio waves and X-rays<BR>
because of gas cloud dynamics. Theory predicts a<BR>
shell shaped like a soap bubble. Instead, we see<BR>
filaments. (Calculations ignore magnetic effects.<BR>
Filaments could be a late development, as the shell<BR>
condenses into new stars. Still, could systems<BR>
escape the blast due to fortunate position?)<BR>
<BR>
Long-Distance Effects<BR>
     Within 10-20 light-years (jump-3 to jump-6),<BR>
the cosmic rays will burn nitrogen in atmospheres.<BR>
Resulting nitrogen oxides will remove planetary<BR>
ozone layers. Increased flow of solar ultra-violet<BR>
radiation will fry or mutate the many organisms<BR>
imperfectly protected against it. The food chain<BR>
may collapse, and 96% of ocean species may die<BR>
out.<BR>
     A dose of 0.03 roentgens reaches the top of<BR>
our atmosphere annually. The mutation rate is<BR>
believed to double when 30-50 roentgens reach the<BR>
planetary surface. Some studies indicate the<BR>
ultra-violet rays won't penetrate to the bottom 1-<BR>
3,000 feet of our - standard - atmosphere.<BR>
<BR>
     Supernovae eject many materials. Our system<BR>
seems relatively rich in gold and uranium. Can<BR>
there be systems rich in niobium and protactinium?<BR>
Comets and meteorites deposit iridium on Terra.<BR>
What substances have collected on a world near a<BR>
supernova?<BR>
<BR>
                                  Distance     Galactic              Maximum<BR>
Year  Desciption               (kiloparsecs)   Longitude  Duration<BR>
Brightness   Data   Notes<BR>
- -60K  IC443                       (5,000 l.y.)<BR>
    ROX__S<BR>
- -30K  W50,SS433                  (15,000 l.y.)<BR>
    ROX_CS<BR>
- -20K  Veil Nebula/Cygnus Loop     (2,600 l.y.)<BR>
    ROX__S  X-ray pulsar? No radio<BR>
<BR>
- -10K  CTB 109                    (10,000 l.y.)<BR>
    ROX_CS  By Casseopeia A<BR>
 -8K  Vela                     0.5 (1,600 l.y.)  240<BR>
    ROX_PS  Inside Gum Nebula<BR>
 -2K  Puppis A                     (7,200 l.y.)<BR>
    ROX__S<BR>
<BR>
 185  Centaurs (MSH 14-63?)        2.5           312        20 mo.      -6<BR>
 320?           MSH 15-52        15,000 l.y.<BR>
    ROX_PS<BR>
 369  Casseopeia                  10.0           108<BR>
<BR>
 386  Sagitaurius (G11.2-0.3?)                               3 mo.<BR>
             "Guest star"<BR>
 393  Scorpia (G348.7+0.3?)                                  8 mo. <BR>
1000?         (G292+1.8)         12,000 l.y.<BR>
    ROX__S   Type II supernova<BR>
<BR>
1006  Lupus   (P1459-41)       3.3 (4,200 l.y.)  328        years        -9<BR>
    ROXH_S<BR>
1054  Crab Nebula              2.0 (6,500 l.y.)  185         24 mo.      -5<BR>
    ROXHPD  Type II supernova<BR>
1181    (3C58) (3C50?)            (28,000 l.y.)              6 mo.      +1?<BR>
    ROXHCD<BR>
<BR>
1300? Sagitaurus A East           (30,000 l.y.)<BR>
    R____S   30 l.y. diameter<BR>
1572  Tycho's (3C10) Caaseo.  5.0 (10,000 l.y.)  120<BR>
    ROXH_S   1.9 Sol-mass ejected<BR>
1604  Kepler's SN(Ophiuchus)  6.0 (26,000 l.y.)    5<BR>
    R)XH_S   Type I at core<BR>
<BR>
1670  Casseopeia A            2.8  (9,100 l.y.)  110<BR>
    ROX__S   Type II. DETECTED.<BR>
1987A (Sanduleak-69.202)           49.0<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Data Designations:<BR>
     R - Radio remnant detected.<BR>
     0 - Optical supernova. (Someone on Terra can see it.)<BR>
     X - X-ray source.<BR>
     H - Historical supernova.<BR>
     C - Compact stellar remnant.<BR>
     P - Pulsar known to be present.<BR>
     S - Shell detected around it.<BR>
<BR>
***<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:49:06 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: UPP lists, including TL mods <BR>
<BR>
After working thru the stuff in the other two posts, I've found that TL<BR>
20 is possible, and not quite as uncommon as I'd thought it might be. <BR>
<BR>
There are a *lot* of ways to get the max TL mod of +3 for the physical<BR>
stats.<BR>
<BR>
size  atm   hyd<BR>
- ----- ----- -----       ------------------------<BR>
0     0     0		+2 for size, +2 for atm<BR>
1     [0-1] [0-2]	+2 for size, +1 for atm<BR>
1     [2-3] [0-6]       +2 for size, +1 for atm<BR>
4     [2-3] 9		+1 for size, +1 for atm +1 for hyd<BR>
[5-7] [2-3] A		+1 for atm, +2 for hyd<BR>
8     3     A		+1 for atm, +2 for hyd<BR>
9     [A-E] A		+1 for atm, +2 for hyd<BR>
A     [A-F] A		+1 for atm, +2 for hyd<BR>
<BR>
If I hadn't run up all those figures, I'd never have thought it was<BR>
possible to get three "+1" bonuses.<BR>
<BR>
Getting the max TL mod of 5 for the social stats is a lot harder. You<BR>
need to have a Pop of A, and Gov type 5. Fuedal Technocracy rears its<BR>
ugly head. :-)<BR>
<BR>
And in addition, you need a type A starport, and a roll of 6 if you<BR>
want a TL 20 world. On the other hand, a roll of 1 still gives TL 15 :-)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:06:16 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Entopic Wars - Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
<BR>
Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> you wrote:<BR>
> >GM Note: I am not intending to continue posting to the TML. I will<BR>
> >discontinue posts following this message.<BR>
> >Players please respond using the GMTraveller@aol.com address.<BR>
> >Darrian Briefing 1<BR>
> >Date: 255-1120<BR>
> <BR>
>          [snip]<BR>
<BR>
>          Brilliant work!  Very entertaining to read and wonderfully <BR>
> annotated.  Unfortunate that you are leaving the TML...  this is the sort <BR>
> of thing we need more of.<BR>
<BR>
It was very nice, perhaps we can suggest that he, or one of his <BR>
players, build a web site for his campaign which would host this<BR>
sort of material. This would serve as a good reference point for<BR>
his campaign. If he or one of his players periodically announced<BR>
to the TML when it was updated those of us who are interested could<BR>
go read it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:24:37 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: UPP lists, including TL mods <BR>
<BR>
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
> Here's a list of all possible UPP stats, with TL mod and how<BR>
> many times the combo appears (out of 46,656).<BR>
<BR>
Very nice work Leonard, now can you compile them into a<BR>
percentile table so that we will simply have to roll<BR>
2d46,656 to generate a UPP?<BR>
<BR>
Then all we will need are 1d36 for the starport & 1d6 for<BR>
the tech level and we will be set, although we may need<BR>
2d36 to roll for Scout and naval bases.<BR>
<BR>
OTOH if each face of our die 46,656 has an area of 1 sq. cm<BR>
than our die (if roughly spherical) will be what about 80<BR>
cm high? If we make them I am sure some gamers will buy<BR>
them. :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 16:24:53 -0800<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Moving a Rock<BR>
<BR>
"Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org> wrote<BR>
<BR>
> Peter Newman wrote:<BR>
> (massive handwave deleted)<BR>
<BR>
> However, since we have multiple examples of Solomani thinking of this very <BR>
> tactic, it seems that the manipulation has already proven unsuccessful in <BR>
> at least one case.<BR>
<BR>
If you mean us here on the TML we don't count until, and unless,<BR>
you can prove we live in the canon Traveller Universe. I will<BR>
accept a jump capable Vilani ship with crew as tentative proof. :)<BR>
<BR>
Can you cite any official Traveller universe canon in which<BR>
a member of a major race has used asteroid bombardment?<BR>
I would not be surprised if some such canon exists but I can<BR>
not immediately recall any.   <BR>
<BR>
> And given the Sollies, if they CAN use this tactic (and <BR>
> everyone else has some weird mental block about doing the same to them), <BR>
> they WILL.<BR>
> In the end, this 'solution' is more destructive to canon than the <BR>
> problem.  Nice try, Peter.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:31:20 -0500<BR>
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net><BR>
Subject: Gearhead Alert!<BR>
<BR>
According to a post on Space.com, NASA is<BR>
beginning testing of a fusion rocket!<BR>
<BR>
The story can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/launches/fusion_rockets_000719.html<BR>
<BR>
David<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 18:50:16 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
<BR>
Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists didn't have to<BR>
longer to get ours ;)<BR>
<BR>
Later,<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> JFZeigler@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2000 6:01 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: GT (Its all Doug & Jesse's fault, I swear, your honor)<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In a message dated 7/21/00 1:05:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,<BR>
> jdegraff@pacbell.net writes:<BR>
><BR>
> > You haven't even seen the real cover yet :)  (Unless of course<BR>
> it's streeted<BR>
> >  and my comps aren't here yet ;)<BR>
><BR>
> Actually, yes I have.  First author's copy arrived direct from<BR>
> the printers<BR>
> last night.  Looks pretty slick, even if it is me saying so.<BR>
><BR>
> ----------<BR>
> Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance<BR>
> writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry<BR>
> "For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty<BR>
> set of people who will take offense at it."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 17:50:36 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>                                   Distance     Galactic              Maximum<BR>
> Year  Desciption               (kiloparsecs)   Longitude  Duration<BR>
> Brightness   Data   Notes<BR>
> -60K  IC443                       (5,000 l.y.)<BR>
>     ROX__S<BR>
<BR>
As you can see, the table is completly scrambled because it's formatted<BR>
for more than 80 character wide lines. <BR>
<BR>
If you can reformat it so it'll fit in 80 columns, plase do so and then<BR>
repost just the table. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
ps. keep in mind that email *must* considered to be using a fixed<BR>
pitch font with a max line length of 80 characters, with 72 preferred<BR>
for anything that might get quoted.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 19:41:06 -0700 (PDT)<BR>
From: "Neal C. Oldham" <nco@its.caltech.edu><BR>
Subject: Error in M0 map on maps.grandsurvey.com?<BR>
<BR>
The webpage http://maps.grandsurvey.com doesn't give a contact e-mail, so<BR>
I thought I should send this to the list.  It seems that on the Milieu 0<BR>
map on the page, every world in Vland sector has TL 0.<BR>
<BR>
However, I would like to thank the creator of the map; it is really<BR>
helpful since First Survey was such a colossal megadisappointment.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- ---<BR>
Neal C. Oldham<BR>
nco@caltech.edu<BR>
<BR>
ad astra!<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 20:38:54 -0700<BR>
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <timmon@primenet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Super nova and the haunted solar system<BR>
<BR>
At 05:50 PM 7/21/00 -0800, the Imperious One wrote:<BR>
>>                                   Distance     Galactic<BR>
Maximum<BR>
>> Year  Desciption               (kiloparsecs)   Longitude  Duration<BR>
>> Brightness   Data   Notes<BR>
>> -60K  IC443                       (5,000 l.y.)<BR>
>>     ROX__S<BR>
><BR>
>As you can see, the table is completly scrambled because it's formatted<BR>
>for more than 80 character wide lines. <BR>
><BR>
>If you can reformat it so it'll fit in 80 columns, plase do so and then<BR>
>repost just the table. Thanks.<BR>
<BR>
                                                     <BR>
Year: -60K<BR>
Desciption: IC443                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (5,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX__S<BR>
Notes:<BR>
<BR>
Year: -30K  <BR>
Desciption: W50,SS433                           <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (15,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX_CS<BR>
Notes:<BR>
<BR>
Year: -20K<BR>
Desciption: Veil Nebula/Cygnus Loop                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (2,600 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX__S<BR>
Notes: X-ray pulsar? No radio<BR>
<BR>
Year: -10K <BR>
Desciption: CTB 109                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (10,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX_CS<BR>
Notes: By Casseopeia A<BR>
   <BR>
                                                      <BR>
Year: -8K <BR>
Desciption: Vela                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 0.5 (1,600 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 240<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX_PS<BR>
Notes: Inside Gum Nebula <BR>
<BR>
Year: -2K <BR>
Desciption: Puppis A                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (7,200 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX__S<BR>
Notes:<BR>
<BR>
Year: 185 <BR>
Desciption: Centaurs (MSH 14-63?)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 2.5<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 312<BR>
Duration: 20 mo.<BR>
Maximum Brightness: -6<BR>
Data:<BR>
Notes:                                          <BR>
<BR>
Year: 320? <BR>
Desciption: MSH 15-52                          <BR>
<BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 15,000 l.y.<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX_PS<BR>
Notes:                                                          <BR>
                                                        <BR>
Year: 369 <BR>
Desciption: Casseopeia                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 10.0<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 108<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data:<BR>
Notes:                                                         <BR>
<BR>
Year: 386 <BR>
Desciption: Sagitaurius (G11.2-0.3?)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): <BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration: 3 mo.<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data:<BR>
Notes: "Guest star"                                   <BR>
                                                        <BR>
Year: 393 <BR>
Desciption: Scorpia (G348.7+0.3?)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs):<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration: 8 mo.<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data:<BR>
Notes:                               <BR>
<BR>
Year: 1000? <BR>
Desciption: (G292+1.8)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 12,000 l.y.<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX__S<BR>
Notes: Type II supernova<BR>
    <BR>
                                      <BR>
Year: 1006 <BR>
Desciption: Lupus (P1459-41)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 3.3 (4,200 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 328<BR>
Duration: years<BR>
Maximum Brightness: -9<BR>
Data: ROXH_S<BR>
Notes:                                                         <BR>
<BR>
Year: 1054  <BR>
Desciption: Crab Nebula                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 2.0 (6,500 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 185<BR>
Duration: 24 mo.<BR>
Maximum Brightness: -5<BR>
Data: ROXHPD<BR>
Notes: Type II supernova<BR>
                                <BR>
Year: 1181 <BR>
Desciption: (3C58) (3C50?)                           <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (28,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration: 6 mo.<BR>
Maximum Brightness: +1?<BR>
Data: ROXHCD<BR>
Notes:<BR>
                                        <BR>
Year: 1300? <BR>
Desciption: Sagitaurus A East                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): (30,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: R____S<BR>
Notes: 30 l.y. diameter                                         <BR>
<BR>
Year: 1572 <BR>
Desciption: Tycho's (3C10) Caaseo.                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 5.0 (10,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 120<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROXH_S<BR>
Notes: 1.9 Sol-mass ejected<BR>
                                                <BR>
Year: 1604 <BR>
Desciption: Kepler's SN(Ophiuchus)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 6.0 (26,000 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 5<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: R)XH_S<BR>
Notes: Type I at core<BR>
                                    <BR>
Year: 1670 <BR>
Desciption: Casseopeia A                           <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 2.8 (9,100 l.y.)<BR>
Galactic Longitude: 110<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data: ROX__S<BR>
Notes: Type II. DETECTED.                                     <BR>
<BR>
Year: 1987A  <BR>
Desciption: (Sanduleak-69.202)                          <BR>
Distance (kiloparsecs): 49.0<BR>
Galactic Longitude:<BR>
Duration:<BR>
Maximum Brightness:<BR>
Data:<BR>
Notes:<BR>
                                              <BR>
Data Designations:<BR>
     R - Radio remnant detected.<BR>
     0 - Optical supernova. (Someone on Terra can see it.)<BR>
     X - X-ray source.<BR>
     H - Historical supernova.<BR>
     C - Compact stellar remnant.<BR>
     P - Pulsar known to be present.<BR>
     S - Shell detected around it.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:38:27 -0400<BR>
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com><BR>
Subject: UPP lists, including TL mods (social) <BR>
<BR>
>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:44:37 PST<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>Here's a list of all possible social UPP stats, with TL mod and how<BR>
>many times the combo appears (out of 46,656).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Good work. Computer generated I assume?<BR>
<BR>
Dave Shayne<BR>
<BR>
"She came from Planet Claire<BR>
 I knew she came from there<BR>
 She drove a Plymouth Satellite<BR>
 Faster than the speed of light"<BR>
  - B-52's<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2798</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/23/00 6:46:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2798<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
RE: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
RE: BSG Questions<BR>
RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
A good way to spend $115<BR>
Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
Re: UPP lists, including TL mods (social)<BR>
RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
Re: UWP lists, including TL mods <BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: MT Err<BR>
What'd I Miss?<BR>
Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:50:20 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Russell<BR>
> Bornschlegel<BR>
> Sent: Friday, 21 July 2000 10:23<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: OT but relevant. "...a giant leap..."<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:<BR>
> > A not so minor anniversary today:<BR>
> > 21 years ago, a human set foot on the Moon.<BR>
><BR>
> 31 years, actually.<BR>
><BR>
> > I feel great pride that we could do such a thing, and great sadness that<BR>
> > we've turned our backs on it.<BR>
><BR>
> I think it was Jerry Pournelle who said something like "I always knew I'd<BR>
> get to see the first man set foot on the moon, but I never dreamed I'd<BR>
> see the last."<BR>
<BR>
Aren't the Indians looking to put a man on the moon in a few years ?<BR>
<BR>
BTW , read a report recently that they've found a tau neutrino but<BR>
unfortunately can't find the reference anymore<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 13:37:56 +0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Friday, 21 July 2000 10:17 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> ><BR>
> > Ah I know, the lords of Kobol, obviously this was the name of one of the<BR>
> > Solomani exploration vessels sent into the Perseus arm, and which never<BR>
> > returned.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > The lightless void, the rift between the spiral arms.<BR>
><BR>
> Except that the way things would look in a rift don't at all resemble<BR>
> what was shown. There wouldn't many nearby stars, except occasionally.<BR>
> But you'd have the full glory of a spiral arm in front and behind. Huge<BR>
> "curtains" of light.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
Of course we could say that what was shown was the handwave (budgetary<BR>
constraints etc) especially given that the same scenes are use over and over<BR>
again.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:59:25 +1200<BR>
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz><BR>
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
> Well, to start with, The Imperium is more of an *option* for CT than an<BR>
> actual *part* of it.<BR>
<BR>
I'd disagree. To me the Imperium and it's institutions is what makes CT CT.<BR>
<BR>
Frankie<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 23:36:30 -0700<BR>
From: Luther Martin <lwmarti@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: A good way to spend $115<BR>
<BR>
A very cool way to blow $115. At http://radiojove.gsfc.nasa.gov/rj_elab.htm<BR>
you can order a kit to build both the receiver and antenna to let you listen<BR>
to the RF energy created by the interaction of Jupiter's magnetic field and<BR>
the plasma torus enclosing the orbit of Io.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:20:29 +0100<BR>
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
<BR>
In message <00719.013722.8R2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard<BR>
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes<BR>
>So the luxuries etc, are "paid for" by being *forced* to care very much<BR>
>about the good of the people under you, because *you* feel stuff that<BR>
>hurts them. Minor dissatisfaction might only be an itch. Mass hunger or<BR>
>sicknes? You don't want to go there.<BR>
<BR>
This was similar to a Dr Who story with Colin Baker.  Martin Jarvis was<BR>
the leader.<BR>
- -- <BR>
Martin Hardgrave<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 03:47:51 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: UPP lists, including TL mods (social)<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:44:37 PST<BR>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
><BR>
>>Here's a list of all possible social UPP stats, with TL mod and how<BR>
>>many times the combo appears (out of 46,656).<BR>
><BR>
> Good work. Computer generated I assume?<BR>
<BR>
Yep. I'd still be rolling otherwise. <BR>
<BR>
I recall trying something similar back on my old TRS-80, and having to<BR>
let it run all day while I was at work. Now I just had to twiddle my<BR>
thumbs for a minute or two. :-)<BR>
<BR>
If anybody *wants* the source, I can post it, but it's pretty<BR>
elementary (and crude) BASIC. I had one program make all the "rolls",<BR>
sorted the output, then had another program total things. A tiny bit of<BR>
editing, and that was that.<BR>
<BR>
I figured it might be of some use next time someone gets suspicious<BR>
about how far a sector is from "reasonable" values, and for statistical<BR>
purposes. <BR>
<BR>
If I get crazy enough, next I may try for a program that can "reverse<BR>
engineer" UWPs to get the rolls (ranges) that generated them. That will<BR>
then (hopefully) lead to being able to generate ranges for missing data.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 09:53:33 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
On 07/22/00 at 05:59 PM,  "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> Well, to start with, The Imperium is more of an *option* for CT than an<BR>
>> actual *part* of it.<BR>
<BR>
>I'd disagree. To me the Imperium and it's institutions is what makes CT<BR>
>CT.<BR>
<BR>
I knew someone would. <g><BR>
<BR>
I remember CT from before there were all those institutions.  You<BR>
gamed in your own universe with little, or no, "Imperium and its<BR>
institutions."  IMO, *that* was CT!  What came later was the GDW's<BR>
Imperium setting, played with CT.<BR>
<BR>
The Imperium setting is fine, but it isn't the "be all and end all"<BR>
of Traveller.  As Leonard said, "the Imperium is more of an option"<BR>
not "what makes CT CT."<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 11:18:41 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: Cultural differences (was Re: Dissent)<BR>
<BR>
> This was similar to a Dr Who story with Colin Baker.  Martin Jarvis was<BR>
> the leader.<BR>
> -- <BR>
Sounds like Vengeance on Varos. That was a pretty neat one. <BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:40:42 EDT<BR>
From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: UWP lists, including TL mods <BR>
<BR>
I compiled this list in order to analyze the relative frequency of trade <BR>
classes (which have far-reaching effects on trade and on character generation <BR>
in T5). For example, a character's homeworld provide native skills based on <BR>
its trade classifications (a world with several TC gives more native skills <BR>
than a world with "no" TC). etc.<BR>
<BR>
    The Traveller world generation system (for Imperial worlds) can produce <BR>
2,176,782,336 different worlds. These charts show the trade classifications <BR>
expected (and their frequency). in a randomly created universe (out of a <BR>
possible total of 2,176,782,336).<BR>
<BR>
TRADE CLASSES EXPECTED (ALPHABETICAL LIST) <BR>
Trade Classes   Total   Percent<BR>
 <BR>
unclassified    73,579,104  3.380%<BR>
Ag  47,432,304  2.179%<BR>
Ag Ni   178,651,980 8.207%<BR>
Ag Ni Ri    40,177,620  1.846%<BR>
Ag Ri   32,142,096  1.477%<BR>
Ast Ba Va   1,679,616   0.077%<BR>
Ast Hi Na Va    5,038,848   0.231%<BR>
Ast Lo Va   15,116,544  0.694%<BR>
Ast Na Ni Va    8,398,080   0.386%<BR>
Ast Na Va   11,757,312  0.540%<BR>
Ast Ni Va   18,475,776  0.849%<BR>
Ba  31,241,376  1.435%<BR>
Ba De   93,312  0.004%<BR>
Ba De Po    4,055,184   0.186%<BR>
Ba Fl   4,792,608   0.220%<BR>
Ba Fl Wa    1,086,048   0.050%<BR>
Ba Ic   244,944 0.011%<BR>
Ba Ic Va    97,200  0.004%<BR>
Ba Po   7,779,888   0.357%<BR>
Ba Va   4,801,680   0.221%<BR>
Ba Wa   4,594,320   0.211%<BR>
De  163,296 0.008%<BR>
De Hi   279,936 0.013%<BR>
De Hi Ind Na Po 8,678,016   0.399%<BR>
De Hi Ind Po    2,379,456   0.109%<BR>
De Hi Po    1,108,080   0.051%<BR>
De Lo   839,808 0.039%<BR>
De Lo Po    36,496,656  1.677%<BR>
De Na Ni Po 14,463,360  0.664%<BR>
De Na Po    20,248,704  0.930%<BR>
De Ni   1,143,072   0.053%<BR>
De Ni Po    50,419,584  2.316%<BR>
De Ni Ri    349,920 0.016%<BR>
De Po   8,137,584   0.374%<BR>
De Ri   489,888 0.023%<BR>
Fl  33,548,256  1.541%<BR>
Fl Hi   14,377,824  0.661%<BR>
Fl Hi Wa    3,258,144   0.150%<BR>
Fl Lo   43,133,472  1.982%<BR>
Fl Lo Wa    9,774,432   0.449%<BR>
Fl Ni   76,681,728  3.523%<BR>
Fl Ni Wa    17,376,768  0.798%<BR>
Fl Wa   7,602,336   0.349%<BR>
Hi  41,924,304  1.926%<BR>
Hi Ic Na    734,832 0.034%<BR>
Hi Ic Na Va 291,600 0.013%<BR>
Hi Ind  42,037,056  1.931%<BR>
Hi Ind Na Po    12,247,200  0.563%<BR>
Hi Ind Po   6,158,592   0.283%<BR>
Hi Ind Wa   7,581,600   0.348%<BR>
Hi Na   9,762,768   0.448%<BR>
Hi Na Va    14,405,040  0.662%<BR>
Hi Po   4,933,872   0.227%<BR>
Hi Wa   6,201,360   0.285%<BR>
Ic Lo   2,204,496   0.101%<BR>
Ic Lo Va    874,800 0.040%<BR>
Ic Na   1,714,608   0.079%<BR>
Ic Na Ni    1,224,720   0.056%<BR>
Ic Na Ni Va 486,000 0.022%<BR>
Ic Na Va    680,400 0.031%<BR>
Ic Ni   2,694,384   0.124%<BR>
Ic Ni Va    1,069,200   0.049%<BR>
Lo  281,172,384 12.917%<BR>
Lo Po   70,018,992  3.217%<BR>
Lo Va   43,215,120  1.985%<BR>
Lo Wa   41,348,880  1.900%<BR>
Na  22,779,792  1.046%<BR>
Na Ni   16,271,280  0.747%<BR>
Na Ni Po            20,412,000  0.938%<BR>
Na Ni Va            24,008,400  1.103%<BR>
Na Po               28,576,800  1.313%<BR>
Na Va               33,611,760  1.544%<BR>
Ni                  251,439,876 11.551%<BR>
Ni Po               104,066,208 4.781%<BR>
Ni Ri               13,321,260  0.612%<BR>
Ni Ri Wa            10,711,440  0.492%<BR>
Ni Va               52,818,480  2.426%<BR>
Ni Wa               62,797,680  2.885%<BR>
Po                  25,882,416  1.189%<BR>
Ri                  42,756,336  1.964%<BR>
Ri Wa               14,996,016  0.689%<BR>
Wa                  17,164,224  0.789%<BR>
 <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 17:49:46 EDT<BR>
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
> Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists didn't have to<BR>
>  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
<BR>
Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1, Marc gets 1, <BR>
Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck somewhere <BR>
between here and Michigan. <BR>
<BR>
LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:17:57 -0400<BR>
From: Traveller@serve.com<BR>
Subject: Re: MT Err<BR>
<BR>
At 08:44 am 7/18/00 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>In a message dated 17-Jul-00 10:30:46 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>>   what happend to all those erratas - is a list of complete GDW MT erratas<BR>
>>    available somewhere ?<BR>
><BR>
>ISTR there's a listing on the web someplace.<BR>
><BR>
>LKW<BR>
<BR>
	www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/<BR>
- -- Famine, of the Four Horsemen of the Traveller Apocalypse<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:22:30 -0500<BR>
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
So, what new and exciting threads have begun over the past two weeks<BR>
(while I was at annual training)?<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 20:41:37 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: C Not So Absolute After All (Maybe)<BR>
<BR>
Matthew W. Helton writes:<BR>
>><BR>
>> Oops, maybe we've been on a road leading to a dead end, theoretically<BR>
>> speaking:<BR>
>><BR>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/07/20/speed.of.light.ap/index.html<BR>
><BR>
>While interesting, FTL is only prohibited if energy or information travels<BR>
FTL, and neither of these seems to be true.  There are several classes of<BR>
virtual objects which can move FTL, it just isn't particularly useful.<BR>
><BR>
I'm reminded of an old Asimov story where he discussed a device that could<BR>
turn on a light prior to the devices switch being closed. Communication is<BR>
accomplished by setting up a situation so that if the light comes on you<BR>
know something has occurred. For example if a plane arrives at its<BR>
destination the light comes on (because the plane landing closes the<BR>
switch.) If the plane doesn't land safely the light doesn't come on. So if<BR>
you don't see the light come before you take off don't take off. So the<BR>
plane doesn't land because it never took off, not because it crashed.<BR>
<BR>
Now as I recall the device only had a few seconds lead time so the trick was<BR>
to cascade them to get useful times. So does that mean if you hook up the<BR>
laser in the above experiment to come on at a specific event that it will<BR>
travel slower so as not to transmit any information that the event occurred?<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:41:53 -0400<BR>
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
<BR>
I guess I'll give it a shot...<BR>
>Where does one go to find someone's medical records in the Traveller<BR>
>universe?  A hospital where he's been treated?  What if he moves around a<BR>
>lot and has been treated at n different hospitals, each of which has an<BR>
>incomplete record of any medical conditions he may have?  Should a<BR>
>traveller carry a complete copy with him?   What if he spent most of his<BR>
>life on one planet, travelled a few jumps away for some reason, and<BR>
>suddenly collapses due to an ailment that had been diagnosed on his home<BR>
>planet, but was not understood by the locals?  What do you do when his<BR>
>doctor's a 10-week round trip away, and this guy needs attention now?<BR>
><BR>
>And getting into the security side, if you do send a request for medical<BR>
>information, how do you prove you're someone who ought to have access to<BR>
>that information?<BR>
><BR>
Easy. Your medical record is on your Imperial ID. It's wherever you are. Now<BR>
if you're on a world with a TL significantly lower than your own (or<BR>
Imperium Standard) then you might be in trouble. I suspect that the star<BR>
port will always be able to read your ID and give the doctors a hard copy,<BR>
but if the treatment is beyond their TL ability then you're still in<BR>
trouble. Of course if you're on an interdicted world or outside the<BR>
Imperium...<BR>
<BR>
Terry C<BR>
All that is Gold does not glitter<BR>
Not all who travel are lost<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:47:22<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
At 05:49 PM 7/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>> Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists didn't have to<BR>
>>  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
><BR>
>Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1, Marc gets 1, <BR>
>Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck somewhere <BR>
>between here and Michigan. <BR>
<BR>
Between Austin and Michigan you say?  hmmm.. must some awful empty roads<BR>
along that route... :)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:48:45<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
At 07:22 PM 7/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>So, what new and exciting threads have begun over the past two weeks<BR>
>(while I was at annual training)?<BR>
<BR>
Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to WotC.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"<BR>
                    -Adam West, as Batman <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:35:40 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> At 07:22 PM 7/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>So, what new and exciting threads have begun over the past two weeks<BR>
>>(while I was at annual training)?<BR>
><BR>
> Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to <BR>
> WotC.<BR>
<BR>
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Don't *do* that... some of us have weak hearts...<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:12:14 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Saturday, July 22, 2000 8:04 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>At 05:49 PM 7/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
>>> Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists didn't have<BR>
to<BR>
>>>  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
>><BR>
>>Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1, Marc gets<BR>
1,<BR>
>>Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck somewhere<BR>
>>between here and Michigan.<BR>
><BR>
>Between Austin and Michigan you say?  hmmm.. must some awful empty roads<BR>
>along that route... :)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Knowing the Midwest, you have one of two choices.  1. It is lost.  2. It<BR>
has been hijacked by a group of rednecks.<BR>
    Btw, I was raised in Decatur, IL, so I know where of I speak.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 22:13:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>So, what new and exciting threads have begun over the past two weeks<BR>
>>(while I was at annual training)?<BR>
><BR>
>Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to<BR>
WotC.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Not funny Doug.  Some of us are morning the take-over of LUG by WotC.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:39:18 -0400<BR>
From: "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
> >Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to<BR>
> WotC.<BR>
><BR>
Of course that means it will use the d20 system like D&D3 and Star Wars and<BR>
heaven forbid Dune and Star Trek one day. But that is really a good thing<BR>
because we all exist merely for the benefit of D&D.<BR>
<BR>
Mike Demetro, President, The Guildhall Press, Canada<BR>
www.guildhallpress.com president@guildhallpress.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2798<BR>
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<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #2799</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	7/23/00 3:38:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
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</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest       Sunday, July 23 2000       Volume 1999 : Number 2799<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
test<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re : Mapping (again)<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: Trade Classifications (was Re: UWP lists)<BR>
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: BSG Questions<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
[www] Freelance Traveller will miss JULY and AUGUST updates<BR>
Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
Aaaah!  Carnivorous Robots on the loose!<BR>
Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
(NOT) Building The Perfect Behemoth (was Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies)<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:27:07 -0500<BR>
From: "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net><BR>
Subject: test<BR>
<BR>
test<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:08:50 +0100<BR>
From: "Michael Scanlon" <Michael.Scanlon@btinternet.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
> > Well, to start with, The Imperium is more of an *option* for CT than an<BR>
> > actual *part* of it.<BR>
><BR>
> I'd disagree. To me the Imperium and it's institutions is what makes CT<BR>
CT.<BR>
><BR>
> Frankie<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
When I'd say,.... that option for The Imperium, with the use of CT, is<BR>
another of opening doors within the Traveller universe, in coignition with<BR>
The Imperium, with an interesting time displacement factor.<BR>
<BR>
Michael<BR>
<BR>
 Michael.Scanlon@BTinternet.com<BR>
ICQ#27333894<BR>
<BR>
"Nothing that God in biomechanics wouldn't let you in Heaven for...."<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:07:11 -0700<BR>
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com><BR>
Subject: Re : Mapping (again)<BR>
<BR>
Map boy again, I came up with an interesting map style using the staggered<BR>
squares approch of dot maps to indicate 1/10th scale rotated hexes on a<BR>
standard GDW/DGP style map. You can see it at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/IMGS/MAPS/DotIco1.GIF<BR>
- ------------------<BR>
Hypercleats Links: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/index.html<BR>
BZA's Traveller Pages: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/<BR>
BZA's Mapping Page: http://www.sierratel.com/aum/BZAT/Mapping/Mapping.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:41:54 -0400<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 09:53:33 -0500<BR>
>From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
>Subject: RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
><BR>
>I remember CT from before there were all those institutions.  You<BR>
>gamed in your own universe with little, or no, "Imperium and its<BR>
>institutions."  IMO, *that* was CT!  What came later was the GDW's<BR>
>Imperium setting, played with CT.<BR>
><BR>
>The Imperium setting is fine, but it isn't the "be all and end all"<BR>
>of Traveller.  As Leonard said, "the Imperium is more of an option"<BR>
>not "what makes CT CT."<BR>
<BR>
Hear, hear!<BR>
<BR>
Books 1-3 (1977-1979) do not mention an "Imperium" at all.*<BR>
<BR>
Book 4 (1978) mentions "the Imperium" one time (p. 1), and then only as an<BR>
option:<BR>
<BR>
"Traveller assumes a remote centralized government (referred to in this<BR>
volume as the Imperium)"<BR>
<BR>
Book 5 (1979-1981) repeats this assertion that "the Imperium" is an option,<BR>
but then integrates references to it throughout the text.**<BR>
<BR>
It is only in 1983 with the publication of Book 6 (specifically focused on<BR>
the _Imperial_ Interstellar Scout Service, p. 1) that "the" Imperium is<BR>
inextricably linked to the rules, and no longer an optional background<BR>
element confined to supplements and adventures.<BR>
<BR>
Color me a heretic, but I find more and more that I prefer Really Classic<BR>
Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
*Interestingly, the Traveller's Aid Society and the Psionic Institutes are<BR>
both mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
**High Guard represented a major departure in another area as well: the<BR>
introduction of ships larger than 5,000 tons. When you recall this, the<BR>
designation of the 1,200-ton /Kinunir/ as a cruiser doesn't seem nearly so<BR>
silly, and the 1,000- to 5,000-ton megacorporate merchants in The Traveller<BR>
Adventure make sense. Traveller lost something when warships and<BR>
merchantmen went from being 2-50x the size of a PC vessel to 100-2,500x as<BR>
large. If nothing else, naval warfare and commerce went from a 17-18th<BR>
century model to one based on the 20th century.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:48:00 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, it's understandable.  I'm just the impatient type when it comes to<BR>
waiting for the print run =D<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of<BR>
> GDWGAMES@aol.com<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2000 2:50 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists<BR>
> didn't have to<BR>
> >  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
><BR>
> Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1,<BR>
> Marc gets 1,<BR>
> Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck somewhere<BR>
> between here and Michigan.<BR>
><BR>
> LKW<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:48:22 -0700<BR>
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
PENGUIN AMBUSH!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Jesse<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> Berry<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2000 12:47 PM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> At 05:49 PM 7/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
> >> Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists <BR>
> didn't have to<BR>
> >>  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
> ><BR>
> >Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1, <BR>
> Marc gets 1, <BR>
> >Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck <BR>
> somewhere <BR>
> >between here and Michigan. <BR>
> <BR>
> Between Austin and Michigan you say?  hmmm.. must some awful empty roads<BR>
> along that route... :)<BR>
> -- <BR>
> <BR>
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:12:09 -0400<BR>
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Trade Classifications (was Re: UWP lists)<BR>
<BR>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:40:42 EDT<BR>
>From: CardSharks@aol.com<BR>
>Subject: Re: UWP lists, including TL mods <BR>
><BR>
>I compiled this list in order to analyze the relative frequency of trade <BR>
>classes (which have far-reaching effects on trade and on character<BR>
generation <BR>
>in T5). For example, a character's homeworld provide native skills based on <BR>
>its trade classifications (a world with several TC gives more native skills <BR>
>than a world with "no" TC). etc.<BR>
<BR>
If you don't mind, I'm curious:<BR>
<BR>
Most of these classifications (Ag, Hi, In, Lo, Na, Ni) are tied to<BR>
population -- their rate per capita is very different than their rate per<BR>
world. Are you weighting their contributions accordingly, assuming that<BR>
Travellers are equally likely to come from any world (i.e., the frequency<BR>
of PC's and major NPC's is inversely proportional to population), or using<BR>
some other distribution? <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 12:51:03<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
At 11:48 AM 7/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:<BR>
>PENGUIN AMBUSH!!!!!!<BR>
<BR>
Doo be doobie doo....<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:04:38 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
According to certain materials GALACTICA was over a mile in length.<BR>
<BR>
- -The monogram model kit placed the length at 2000 feet.<BR>
- -The LP album stated that it was "more than a mile long."<BR>
(I have read another reference which agrees with this)<BR>
- -Another source states that GALACTICA is 2-3 miles long<BR>
<BR>
A couple of GALACTICA websites contain close-up views and superb<BR>
external schematics (without dimensions of course) of battlestars.<BR>
<BR>
The most definitive information seems to be that the 6 1/2 foot long model<BR>
was 1:960 scale, giving an overall length of  6240 feet = 1901 meters.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that GALACTICA was 1900 meters in length (subject to any further<BR>
revision of this information).<BR>
<BR>
Based on a rectangular parallelpiped model with the rough dimensions (taken<BR>
from the schematics) of:<BR>
Beam     3.4n<BR>
Height    1.0n<BR>
Length   14.3n = 1900m<BR>
<BR>
V=114,385,211 cubic meters (stere), which at 14 stere per dT gives<BR>
a Traveller displacement of:<BR>
<BR>
                                    8,170,372 dT<BR>
<BR>
(Of course, if it were 2.5 MILES long, the displacement would be something<BR>
more like 77,675,000 dT).<BR>
<BR>
This is a very rough estimate and has not been subjected to the more<BR>
rigorous<BR>
estimation process that I normally employ, which would involve analyzing<BR>
each<BR>
major volume component separately.  Nonetheless, I would expect the estimate<BR>
to be accurate within 10-25%.<BR>
<BR>
See battlestar2000.tvheaven.com for all the contradictory details.<BR>
<BR>
 > > First, the size:  Some sources place the length at about 609 meters or<BR>
2000<BR>
> > feet.  Maybe, maybe not.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:19:09 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
> Fighter complement:  Varies, but most agree that standard complement is<BR>
two<BR>
> 75 Viper squadrons with the ability to house at least twice that number<BR>
for<BR>
> extended operations.  As to the size of the Viper itself, I would have to<BR>
> disagree with the 30 ton estimate.  10 tons maybe, perhaps between 8 and<BR>
12.<BR>
><BR>
> Crew:  Lots.  ;-)<BR>
><BR>
> More as I find it.<BR>
<BR>
Concur,<BR>
<BR>
Dimensions of the Colonial Viper:<BR>
<BR>
15.5 inches long<BR>
8 9 inches wide<BR>
6 inches tall<BR>
<BR>
1/24 scale<BR>
<BR>
This gives an overall bounding parallelpided volume of:<BR>
171.2 m^3 =  12.2 dT<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:31:56 -0400<BR>
From: "Dan Lane" <danielrlane@home.com><BR>
Subject: Re: BSG Questions<BR>
<BR>
> The Core doesn't *have* inhabitable planets. They are population II<BR>
> stars (first generation) which means nothing but gas giants (and those<BR>
> are hydrogen/helium *only*). Same goes for globular clusters as I<BR>
> recall.<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
I think that is a bit premature to be making this statement, although I<BR>
understand and concur with the general logic that went into its formulation.<BR>
I think that it would be more appropriate to state that the probability of<BR>
finding habitable systems/worlds in the generally population II core is<BR>
greatly reduced.<BR>
<BR>
- -Dan Lane<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:38:30 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
<BR>
>>PENGUIN AMBUSH!!!!!!<BR>
><BR>
>Doo be doobie doo....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    Well, considering the fact that I am in the middle of converting<BR>
Traveller to ICON, & considering the fact that ICON does have a similar<BR>
character creation process, sans killing off the character before play, I<BR>
have created the GREAT PENGUIN EMPIRE in my ST:TNG/DS9 game.  *weg*  Think<BR>
TOS Klingons, but with more style, as they are always ready for a formal<BR>
party.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:12:25 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Thanks to TML<BR>
<BR>
> Where does one go to find someone's medical records in the Traveller<BR>
> universe?<BR>
<BR>
I was under the impression that an up-tp-date copy was part of the Imperial<BR>
ID. Every time you were treated, they download your records, update them as<BR>
they treat you, then upload them back to your card afterwards.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 22:22:32 -0700<BR>
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nick@traveller.freeserve.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
<BR>
Only if the penguins beat my Evil Trained Monkeys(TM) to it. Fly, my<BR>
pretties, fly...<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
> PENGUIN AMBUSH!!!!!!<BR>
><BR>
> Jesse<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> > -----Original Message-----<BR>
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.<BR>
> > Berry<BR>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2000 12:47 PM<BR>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> > Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #2797<BR>
> ><BR>
> ><BR>
> > At 05:49 PM 7/22/2000 EDT, you wrote:<BR>
> > >> Whoops, my bad!  Glad you liked it :)  Just wish we artists<BR>
> > didn't have to<BR>
> > >>  longer to get ours ;)<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > >Printer only sends out so many advance copies -- author gets 1,<BR>
> > Marc gets 1,<BR>
> > >Steve gets 1, I get 1 (when it's GT) -- the rest are on a truck<BR>
> > somewhere<BR>
> > >between here and Michigan.<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Between Austin and Michigan you say?  hmmm.. must some awful empty<BR>
roads<BR>
> > along that route... :)<BR>
> > --<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
> > http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:04:32 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
On 07/23/00 at 02:41 PM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>>I remember CT from before there were all those institutions.  You<BR>
>>gamed in your own universe with little, or no, "Imperium and its<BR>
>>institutions."  IMO, *that* was CT!  What came later was the GDW's<BR>
>>Imperium setting, played with CT.<BR>
<BR>
>>The Imperium setting is fine, but it isn't the "be all and end all"<BR>
>>of Traveller.  As Leonard said, "the Imperium is more of an option"<BR>
>>not "what makes CT CT."<BR>
<BR>
>Hear, hear!<BR>
<BR>
Be careful Chris or they'll start calling you a heretic for agreeing<BR>
with me.  <g>  <BR>
<BR>
<snip><BR>
<BR>
>It is only in 1983 with the publication of Book 6 (specifically focused<BR>
>on the _Imperial_ Interstellar Scout Service, p. 1) that "the" Imperium<BR>
>is inextricably linked to the rules, and no longer an optional background<BR>
>element confined to supplements and adventures.<BR>
<BR>
By the time Scouts came out, I'd been gaming with CT in non-Imperium<BR>
(and highly modified Imperium) universes for six years.  I *always*<BR>
enjoyed the GDW backstories, but I never used them in their entirety<BR>
or straight up.  The idea that the JTAS backstory should be considered<BR>
the *official* TU never entered my mind.  Eventually, by the late<BR>
80's...MT really, the official GDW backstory became so intertwined<BR>
with the material published that I lost interest in buying what GDW<BR>
was printing.  That was a shame!<BR>
<BR>
IMO, what we should have had were generic rules, design sequences and<BR>
adventure seeds published as Traveller.  In addition, there was (and<BR>
still is) a place for specific settings, detailed backstories, and<BR>
specialized design sequences in the market.  If you want a model of<BR>
what I always thought GDW *should* have done, look at Steve Jackson<BR>
Games with GURPS for the generic framework and its Worldbooks for<BR>
the specific settings. <BR>
<BR>
>Color me a heretic, but I find more and more that I prefer Really Classic<BR>
>Traveller.<BR>
<BR>
Hee, hee, okay, you're a heretic...and welcome to the club.  <BR>
<BR>
>*Interestingly, the Traveller's Aid Society and the Psionic Institutes<BR>
>are both mentioned.<BR>
<BR>
Yes, IMTU's the Traveller's Aid Society didn't depend on an Imperium<BR>
for its existence.  TAS was a combination of the Explorer's Club,<BR>
Reuters News Service, Hilton Hotels and American Express.  I know<BR>
the OTU backstory, but the *concept* of TAS didn't depend on<BR>
adherence to the official version.<BR>
<BR>
>**High Guard represented a major departure in another area as well: the<BR>
>introduction of ships larger than 5,000 tons. When you recall this, the<BR>
>designation of the 1,200-ton /Kinunir/ as a cruiser doesn't seem nearly<BR>
>so silly, and the 1,000- to 5,000-ton megacorporate merchants in The<BR>
>Traveller Adventure make sense. Traveller lost something when warships<BR>
>and merchantmen went from being 2-50x the size of a PC vessel to<BR>
>100-2,500x as large. If nothing else, naval warfare and commerce went<BR>
>from a 17-18th century model to one based on the 20th century.<BR>
<BR>
Absolutely!!!  And it's about time this was brought up (again).  I<BR>
understand that some people want to wargame, not roleplay, and lots<BR>
and lots of us like big guns, but the inflation of ship sizes was<BR>
something I hated.  <BR>
<BR>
I think we should take the /Kinunir/ class as really being a light<BR>
cruiser, not some aberration.  When we do this the ships in classic<BR>
Traveller make sense.  The 800 dton /Broardsword/ class is a<BR>
powerful ship, not a joke.  The corsairs, merchants and gunboats all<BR>
in the 200 to 1000 dtons work.  The "huge" megacorp liners of 1 to 5<BR>
kdtons fit.  And if we take these numbers as normal, then heavy<BR>
cruisers at 4 to 8 kdtons and dreadnaughts at 10 to 20 kdtons,<BR>
aren't so outlandish.  That ought to be big enough for wargammers to<BR>
have their fun, but still keep most ships in ranges reasonable for<BR>
PC's to encounter and interact with.<BR>
<BR>
Now, *my* question is how do we gearheads keep the sizes restricted<BR>
to these smaller ships?  What tweeks to the TU framework are needed<BR>
to prevent ships in the hundred of thousands and millions of dtons<BR>
from being built, because unless *something* prevents it somebody<BR>
would build such monsters.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:18:15 -0500<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
On 07/23/00 at 09:39 AM,  "Mike Demetro" <punkabilly@sprint.ca> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> >Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to<BR>
>> WotC.<BR>
<BR>
>Of course that means it will use the d20 system like D&D3 and Star Wars<BR>
>and heaven forbid Dune and Star Trek one day. But that is really a good<BR>
>thing because we all exist merely for the benefit of D&D.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, I hear you. <BR>
<BR>
I'm pretty sure Marc Miller is currently working for (at least<BR>
consulting with) Last Unicorn Games.  Last Unicorn Games is being<BR>
bought by Hasbro/WotC. Unless there is a change, then soon, Marc<BR>
will be working for WotC. <BR>
<BR>
It is the stated policy of WotC that all their roleplaying games<BR>
will use the d20 System.  Therefore, if LUG Dune and Star Trek<BR>
continue to be produced it is likely that they will eventually be<BR>
converted from the ICON system to the d20 System.  <BR>
<BR>
Given all the above, the appearance of a d20 System version of<BR>
Traveller isn't unreasonable.  If that isn't the only version of<BR>
Traveller available, I'd say that is more a good thing than a bad<BR>
thing.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:42:26 -0700<BR>
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
I totally agree - while I have not found a good handwave to limit ship size<BR>
yet (the best that I have found is - "Because I said so!!"), I really do<BR>
like it - it also makes naval battles almost playable. IMHO traveller took a<BR>
dip when the huge ships appeared.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
**High Guard represented a major departure in another area as well: the<BR>
introduction of ships larger than 5,000 tons. When you recall this, the<BR>
designation of the 1,200-ton /Kinunir/ as a cruiser doesn't seem nearly so<BR>
silly, and the 1,000- to 5,000-ton megacorporate merchants in The Traveller<BR>
Adventure make sense. Traveller lost something when warships and<BR>
merchantmen went from being 2-50x the size of a PC vessel to 100-2,500x as<BR>
large. If nothing else, naval warfare and commerce went from a 17-18th<BR>
century model to one based on the 20th century.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 17:54:19 -0400<BR>
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com><BR>
Subject: [www] Freelance Traveller will miss JULY and AUGUST updates<BR>
<BR>
Because of real-life disruption (I was ordered out of my current apt by<BR>
September 1), I will probably _not_ have the time to do my usual updates of<BR>
Freelance Traveller for July and August 2000 - at best, there _may_ be one<BR>
update in mid-August.<BR>
<BR>
Rest assured that this does _not_ represent a downgrading of my commitment<BR>
to Freelance Traveller or the Traveller community in general; merely a<BR>
temporary disruption, and we will return as soon as the disruption is over.<BR>
<BR>
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks to everyone who has<BR>
contributed to making Freelance Traveller what it is: the authors, the<BR>
visitors, and the web hosting services, Downport and Execnet. Without a<BR>
team like this, we couldn't be what we so clearly are - one of the premier<BR>
Traveller web sites.<BR>
<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture <BR>
Enterprises, 1977-2000.  Use of the trademark in <BR>
this notice and in the referenced materials is not <BR>
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor<BR>
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource<BR>
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller<BR>
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm<BR>
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 20:16:42 +0100<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: Re: What'd I Miss?<BR>
<BR>
At 9:41 -0400 23/7/00, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:<BR>
>At 07:22 PM 7/22/2000 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
> >So, what new and exciting threads have begun over the past two weeks<BR>
> >(while I was at annual training)?<BR>
><BR>
>Leroy and Clif are taking over the writing of T5, which has been sold to WotC.<BR>
<BR>
Doug, you absolute $$*^)(**)((&. My stomach turned over as I read <BR>
that and it took me about ten seconds to twig that you were winding <BR>
me up.<BR>
<BR>
Dom<BR>
<BR>
- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------<BR>
"We tell the tales of heroes to remind ourselves that we too<BR>
can be great" - John Wick, 7th Sea<BR>
http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com   http://www.bits.org.uk/ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:00:37 -0400 (EDT)<BR>
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca><BR>
Subject: Aaaah!  Carnivorous Robots on the loose!<BR>
<BR>
Wow.  <BR>
A surefire winner of an IgNoble prize.  <BR>
It sounds like a B-movie, from the 50's, but it's true.  <BR>
The K'Kree would be appalled! <BR>
<BR>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000719/sc/robot_dc_1.html<BR>
<BR>
Charles C.<BR>
<BR>
PS.  Who _funds_ these things anyway?  Weird.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:11:33 -0700<BR>
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies<BR>
<BR>
From: Tsykoduk <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I totally agree - while I have not found a good handwave to limit ship size<BR>
>yet (the best that I have found is - "Because I said so!!"), I really do<BR>
>like it - it also makes naval battles almost playable. IMHO traveller took<BR>
a<BR>
>dip when the huge ships appeared.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
    You could base Size on TL, you know.  It would make sense.  At lower TLs<BR>
you maynot have the infrastructure to build a 50Kdton ship, but maybe a<BR>
5Kdton ship.  This way you can scale the size of your games to the limits of<BR>
Technology.<BR>
<BR>
TL    Max Size<BR>
7        500dton<BR>
8        1KdTon<BR>
9        5KdTon<BR>
10      7.5KdTon<BR>
11       10KdTon<BR>
12        15KdTon<BR>
13        25KdTon<BR>
14        50KdTon<BR>
15        100KdTon<BR>
<BR>
    A simple table, but one that I find works in my games.  It allows the<BR>
ships the players use to be the standard, but also allows for large warships<BR>
at higher TLs.  But, remember the rule of being able to put one general area<BR>
of equipment at a single TL higher than the rest of the ship?  You now can<BR>
use it on the hull.<BR>
<BR>
    I bid you peace.<BR>
<BR>
Legate Legion, Section 31 Agent at Large.<BR>
ICQ # 8973001<BR>
legate@futureone.com<BR>
<BR>
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One, we die for the One. We go to the dark<BR>
places where no one else dares venture! We stand on the bridge and no one<BR>
passes. Entil'zha Veni!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:30:19 -0300<BR>
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca><BR>
Subject: (NOT) Building The Perfect Behemoth (was Re: Classic Traveller for Newbies)<BR>
<BR>
At 06:04 PM 7/23/00, you wrote:<BR>
> >Traveller Adventure make sense. Traveller lost something when warships<BR>
> >and merchantmen went from being 2-50x the size of a PC vessel to<BR>
> >100-2,500x as large. If nothing else, naval warfare and commerce went<BR>
> >from a 17-18th century model to one based on the 20th century.<BR>
><BR>
>Absolutely!!!  And it's about time this was brought up (again).  I<BR>
>understand that some people want to wargame, not roleplay, and lots<BR>
>and lots of us like big guns, but the inflation of ship sizes was<BR>
>something I hated.<BR>
<BR>
         Same, same.  One reason I keep TNEC hull sizes small.<BR>
<BR>
>I think we should take the /Kinunir/ class as really being a light<BR>
>cruiser, not some aberration.  When we do this the ships in classic<BR>
>Traveller make sense.  The 800 dton /Broardsword/ class is a<BR>
>powerful ship, not a joke.  The corsairs, merchants and gunboats all<BR>
>in the 200 to 1000 dtons work.  The "huge" megacorp liners of 1 to 5<BR>
>kdtons fit.  And if we take these numbers as normal, then heavy<BR>
>cruisers at 4 to 8 kdtons and dreadnaughts at 10 to 20 kdtons,<BR>
>aren't so outlandish.  That ought to be big enough for wargammers to<BR>
>have their fun, but still keep most ships in ranges reasonable for<BR>
>PC's to encounter and interact with.<BR>
<BR>
         D'accord!<BR>
<BR>
>Now, *my* question is how do we gearheads keep the sizes restricted<BR>
>to these smaller ships?  What tweeks to the TU framework are needed<BR>
>to prevent ships in the hundred of thousands and millions of dtons<BR>
>from being built, because unless *something* prevents it somebody<BR>
>would build such monsters.<BR>
><BR>
>Eris<BR>
<BR>
         The issue is the "criticals by size" rule...  the bigger I build a <BR>
ship, the fewer criticals it takes from a bigger-than-it weapon.  Hull <BR>
inflation arises directly from an attempt to defeat this relationship.  So, <BR>
to solve the problem, we need to break the relationship.  Doing so, of <BR>
course, disrupts canon.  Oh well.<BR>
<BR>
         The easy answer is simply saying that a USP X weapon inflicts X-5 <BR>
"size" criticals, regardless of target size.  This keeps "small" banks of <BR>
weapons from being outrageously powerful, gives fighters a new lease on <BR>
life and allows dramatic and heroic slugfests between Patrol Cruisers & <BR>
Corsairs.<BR>
<BR>
         Addendia #2 would be that for each 5kdton, there is an Agility <BR>
penalty of -1.  This based out of the work that Leonard(?) has done with <BR>
probability spheres for hitting as relates to target size.  Big ships don't <BR>
move "fast" enough compared to size to avoid incoming fire as well as <BR>
smaller ships.<BR>
<BR>
         Result:  The big ships are frightening for their firepower, but <BR>
little ships can stay away from them.  Since disengaging is agility based, <BR>
"big" ships may have problems finding opponents willing to stick around, <BR>
simply because the "big" ships can't catch them.  That means that big ships <BR>
need screens of smaller, faster carried craft (fighters!) to keep a target <BR>
from racing away (disengaging) while the big ship does the knock-out damage.<BR>
<BR>
         Thoughts?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
	---------------------------------------	<BR>
	The TNEC Guy<BR>
	-- Michel R. Vaillancourt<BR>
	   (ICQ # 31172292)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #2799<BR>
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